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- [00:00]
Nadja
Rid of that. Because it's on the same track. Like, you know, if you. If you cough or do slurp or burp or something.
- [00:07]
Scott
Sure.
- [00:09]
Nadja
To. To get that out of the. Out of the recording. Because you and Cat, for instance, have got separate microphones.
- [00:20]
Kat
Hello. Hi.
- [00:24]
Nadja
That's a nice color. Very bright.
- [00:26]
Kat
Thank you.
- [00:27]
Nadja
Can I actually hear myself? Am I too warm? Oh, my God. It's very hot down here in the cellar. Minus two again outside and foggy. And then down here the heating's on and I've just drunk hot ginger tea. I'll stop complaining. I was going to say wear my glasses, but I'm wearing them as long as I don't have to put my brain in. Oh, my God. Some days, huh?
- [00:55]
Scott
We know that feeling. We know that feeling. Well, I know the feeling.
- [01:00]
Kat
There have been a couple of times where I have my old glasses on, which aren't the right strength, that when I sit down, I go to put my new glasses on top of them because they don't realize I have them in, so. Yep, that doesn't work very well.
- [01:13]
Nadja
No, that's a good one. I remember that. Okay. Okay, I will clap and then we will start.
- [01:54]
Scott
Hey, Nadjie. How are you?
- [01:56]
Kat
Hi, Nadja. It. It.
- [03:49]
Scott
Silence. No, I mean, it's always tough to say goodbye. It's always tough to say goodbye to them and to think about what that was like in those last few days and a little bit of a shock, but at the same time not altogether surprising, because as we talked about before, I think we mentioned it before, there were indications for a long time that something wasn't right. But with the lack of diagnostic capacity for determining anything wrong with elephants in captivity, not anything, but many things, especially internal, abdominal, you don't get a lot of answers. You know, with diagnostics, you just look at who the elephant is and there's indications that things weren't great, but we couldn't figure out what it was.
- [04:36]
Kat
Unfortunately, blood work was never done on her except for what was required for her quarantine. They never ran like a general panel that would look at white cells, red cells and that sort of thing. And then, of course, that is always in the plans for us with any elephant that comes. But the first thing you want to do is build up some sort of trusting relationship and allow them to meet all the other elephants and allow them to build something up before you just rush in and are like, okay, time to poke you. So we had always had the intention of doing blood work to see if we could see or have Any indication of something being wrong. But she wasn't here for very long, unfortunately.
- [05:19]
Scott
She was stoic. I mean, she was so strong. I mean, again, we talked about, you know, little indications here and there, but she didn't let us see most of that, you know, within the first few weeks. I remember that we gave a. I don't remember if it was one or a series of vitamin shots.
- [05:33]
Kat
No, it's just one.
- [05:34]
Scott
And she perked right back up, and she did really, really well. And then on the last couple of days, you know, things seemed mostly normal until that last day. And she was a little bit. Maybe the last two days, a little bit low energy and gave her another vitamin shot.
- [05:51]
Kat
And so she was still eating. I mean, she would eat everything we gave her. She was eating maybe a tiny bit slow, but, you know, there was no big anything. And we've talked about before that, you know, there's still wild animals and that they still have that natural tendency, some of them, to hide their illnesses. It's a survival instinct. We have worked with other elephants who are the exact opposite and were very dramatic when they had stomach aches and would, like, throw themselves on the ground in front of you and be like, oh, my God, look at how sick I am. It's like, really? What's wrong with you? I was one very cute elephant. But, yeah, a lot of them have a tendency to not show when something's wrong. But I think that was all multiplied by her being Gigi's mom and having that protective nature towards Gigi, but also prioritizing Gigi over herself, you know, her relationships with the other elephants and all of those sorts of things. And I think all of that kind of compounded into her doing a really good job of covering up just how bad things were for her medically.
- [07:10]
Scott
And then last evening, you know, that last afternoon she actually. We left, I think 7:00 ish. 6:30. 7:00 ish. She actually looked brighter. You know, she was actually looking pretty good. She had a nice look. She looked right at me eating watermelon and everything, seeming okay. Definitely not thinking, hey, we're out of the woods. You know, she's, you know, 100%, but she looked good. No, we still decided to go down and check on her a few hours later, and she had already passed away. No indication of struggle, no indication of, you know, for being in, you know, severe discomfort or, you know, wiggling around on the ground. It looks like she had just laid down and let herself go rather quickly.
- [07:52]
Kat
Yeah, we went down and we didn't see her. And gigi was the one who came up to us at the barn, was doing big rumbles. And, you know, it is that moment where you're like, oh, no. It's like, that's really weird. The rumble was different, her being by herself, not necessarily super different. You know, they weren't attached at the hip. But in the scenario and how everything had been. And again, with the different vocalization, it was one of those, okay, where's your mom? And started looking around and didn't see her. So we ended up Gigi was in yard two, and we closed the gate between yard two and three so we could go up into three and see if we could find and see where pocha was. And that's actually where she had passed away. And we went over there, and she, like Scott said, she just looked like she was lying down. Usually when elephants struggle to get up, even some that just aren't super graceful about getting up when they're fine, you know, there is. They make trails in the dirt. You know, they dig, like, little holes or disturb the grass around them or pull down branches to try to help themselves get up. And there was nothing. She was just laying down. So we approached cautiously still, because, I mean, it was so sudden, and we could see that she had passed away. Once we saw that she had passed away, we immediately opened back up for gigi. But, yeah.
- [09:26]
Scott
I don't recall if she went over right away, because right around that same time, the other girls were coming back in the back of the yard, too.
- [09:32]
Kat
Yeah, she started kind of going back and forth a little bit and started making these big rumbles, trying to call the other elephants, which was one of those things that, you know, it's not like she had any close friends with the other girls at that point. She was still trying to understand what it meant to be a good friend, you know, to be a good member of the herd. With how her relationship was with pocha. She just didn't come in with those social skills and was still definitely learning them. I mean, she had relationships, but nobody that, you know, she played with Maya a little bit at that point. Bambi was definitely a little auntie. The other two were a little unsure of her still because of her speed and her big energy, you know, and people always say how well elephants learn. They've been alone their entire lives. They're not going to be able to socialize, you know, and this is nothing you can teach an elephant. You know, this had nothing to do with anything except for very natural instincts that when she was going through something like that, she was going to call to others who could help her.
- [10:45]
Scott
And calling in a very deliberate. And deliberate manner. But also a very different vocalization.
- [10:50]
Kat
Yeah.
- [10:51]
Scott
Than you would typically hear where, you know, it's not just, hey, where are you? You know, she was clearly calling them over and they were clearly responding.
- [11:00]
Kat
Yeah. They weren't close. When we had left at dinner, they were all the way at the backside of four. It's not like they were in the area and they stopped by. They came all the way from the back of four to her calls.
- [11:17]
Scott
Yeah. And then once they all arrived, I, I. What I recall is they were all. They all met up with her in yard, too.
- [11:23]
Kat
Everybody but Maya.
- [11:24]
Scott
Yeah. And then they started going up one at a time with her to go see her mom.
- [11:29]
Kat
Yeah. It seemed very. I don't know if deliberate's the right word. No lady was over in the male Asian habitat, but she would, like, stand next to somebody for a second, and then her and that elephant would walk into yard three and go stand next to Pocha. And they stand there for 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, different times for different elephants. And then she would walk out with them and she would stand around with them for another minute, and then she would go back in and a different elephant would go in with her, and then they would stand there and we do put hay and stuff, especially some elephants are definitely stress eaters, which I can relate to. So you are trying to make sure you can offer them every comfort possible. So there is food in the area, but the girls aren't coming for food. There's food everywhere. But they do. They were taking their time individually, spending time with her, and then they all ended up going back with her. But for me, the bigger surprise was Mara, because Mara actually seemed the most responsive to the whole thing and spent the most time with Kiji around her mom. And at that point, Mara was the one who had the least relationship with Gigi because out of all of them, she was the one that she was the pushiest with as far as pushing her off her food and stuff and never anything super physical. But the grandmas don't really enjoy even that. And while Hana seemed to be trying to sort it out with Gigi, Mara would just leave, and she was done with that scenario. So to see Mara be the one who really kind of showed up the most out of all of them as far as being with her next to her mom, for me, that was a nice surprise.
- [13:36]
Scott
I think the whole thing, you know, when you talk About a nice surprise and, you know, a difficult scenario. And I'm a little quiet because I had a bit of a soft spot for her. You know, she left a big void, but at the same time, she opened a huge door for Geeja and the others to come together in a way that no one could have imagined and for geisha to step up in a way that no one could have imagined. And you know, geisha's never been around an elephant that died before. She's not, not sure what ritual is, you know. You know, it's something that they do learn from, you know, generations before when you hear about things going on in Africa and Asia. But it's different in captivity and they all respond differently and, and it's just amazing to see how they all came together in that way and how Giza called them and how Giza again, as Kat said, seemingly intentionally made this very ritualistic response of one at a time and then all together. And to watch that, that very thrown together herd, you know, non familiar herd respond in such a way, it's just, I mean, it leaves you in awe of what they're capable of understanding and doing and doing for each other. And I think the thing that I've always been most grateful for is with this scenario is that Pocha didn't die at the zoo where Gizha would have been able to call to her dad and her dad wouldn't have been able to come because he's not allowed in with her. And he would have been able to call to Kenya and Kenya's in a different exhibit and she essentially would have been there all alone. And in this scenario where she had her friends, her new friends, I mean, I could just. It's just such a monumental gift for Pocha to have stayed strong enough for long enough to help Geeja with this introduction and then to leave her in a place where she was surrounded by friends is just, it's just what a blessing for her.
- [15:38]
Kat
I mean, it was so sad. But at the same time, you know, we're just standing back this whole time. We're not trying to control any of this scenario. We're not. I know there are times that people would like to be able to see what it is we talk about, but there are definitely moments that feel like it would be incredibly disrespectful or disconnective to pull out a phone and record what's going on. And I do understand that it was an amazing moment. And some people may not believe really the scenario that happened and having video would be Nice. But it was a really special moment, I think for both of us. It was one of the most elephant things we've ever seen in the years that we've worked with elephants, especially again, stressing how secluded and you know, Gigi's born in captivity, she's never known the wild.
- [16:32]
Scott
She's not just any activity either though. Sure. This is. And I think that's so important when we talk about poaching gi, meaning that's it's. They were not in a normal zoo enclosure, you know, that that's a different level of isolation. And for her to as, sorry interjected there, but you know, don't want to undermine the depth and, and the extreme difference what it is for them to be raised in that space and that captive, very isolated, very secluded space and to have this opportunity.
- [17:07]
Kat
Yeah. And I mean most of the elephants, they spend most of their lives in captivity, but they did have that glimpse of what it is to be a family, you know, having 12 aloe mothers with them and this big community. That is what makes up a wild elephant herd. And geisha's never had it. She's never had it. She's. Has no. I mean, I don't know what her mom told her, but you know, she's the most distant from any of that. And she, when I came down to it, was the most connected to all of it. And we left at about 1:00 in the morning and when we left, they were all still together at that point. Maya hadn't come. She did come later, but, you know, they were all different distances from Poch's body, but all of them in that yard with her just quietly grazing and being there for each other in the way that they're able to. And yeah, it was special. Unfortunate, but special. It, it, it. My husband is going to try not to cry.
- [19:38]
Scott
Oh, I'm not. I can't even try right now. You both suck. No, there's no, no way holding back tears than this. I mean, the whole thing just so special. And so you guys get to finish the show. Well, I saw, I saw him in the corner. I mean all of it. I love it. You know, just watching Pocho. I mean, for Pocha to be able to say goodbye knowing that her daughter was in a good place for her daughter to be able to have that, you know, that nurturing time for those for a few months for the daughter, for her daughter to be able to have that time with her new friends coming in to be here in that hour of need. I mean, all of it's. Just so remarkably special.
- [20:19]
Kat
There were definitely times where walking away where, you know, you would see Pocha just watching, you know, she would be standing at a distance and watching what Guijamina was doing with the other elephants and how that was all unfolding. And, you know, she just had a different look on her face. You know, it was not to anthropomorphize. It is that she was so soft visually, as far as facial expressions go, except for when she was throwing things at Matthias. And there was just a different look on her face when she would sit there and watch, you know, Gijamino with the other elephants. And, you know, we had always said there was a lack of understanding about why she wasn't participating so much, but that was one of the things that, after she passed, seemed to make a little more sense with falling into place as to her own knowledge of not being long for the world and prioritizing Giza over herself, knowing that she'd be gone soon.
- [22:05]
Scott
I think the biggest factor there is it's very difficult to. To do documentaries on Asian elephants because of their habitat. You know, they're.
- [22:17]
Kat
Go ahead.
- [22:17]
Scott
Sorry. Touch me. I wasn't sure. Stop talking.
- [22:22]
Kat
No testing. Sorry, Bob.
- [22:24]
Scott
Hold on. Sorry, Bob. So I think part of it is very difficult. It's very difficult to document a lot what happens with Asian elephants because of their habitat. You know, it's much more densely forested. It's much more. Much more difficult to see them come across those, you know, those. The. The bones of a deceased individual, because they're not in an open savannah, they're in a secluded shelter. And, you know, that's why we have so many more documentation documentaries on African elephants and Asian elephants, because it's just the. The habitat is very difficult to access, and you're not going to see the same level of. You're not able to capture the same amount of intimacy that you can with Africans many times.
- [23:11]
Kat
And part of it is that, you know, these are the routes that African elephants take to water, you know, every year. It is that knowledge that is passed down from generation to generation of the best trails to go for whatever reason they believe will give them the best chance of success, of surviving until the rains come. So you have these elephants that are usually walking the same paths, you know, that they've walked for the past 150 years, however long. So. And these paths are, unfortunately, where a lot of elephants pass away, because it is during that dry time and it is the journey to find water, and it is that journey of survival. So you have this reoccurring journey that travels through these hard times from the past where other elephants have passed away. So at least the scientific thinking for the majority is that it's not that they are seeking out any sort of elephant graveyard or go out of their way to go somewhere to pay respects, although there are always. I'm sure there are instances of that, but that for the most part, it is that they are going through these places repeatedly where elephants have passed away. So they do take, of course, moments to smell, touch, put things to their mouth, pay respects. But it isn't believed that it is an active seeking out of these places, that it is more of the fact that they essentially pass through them almost every year. And you don't have that with Asian elephants, you know, because of where they live. And there isn't the same migratory path and struggle, although they do have some trails that they've used for centuries, so on and so forth. But it's not during a struggle. It's not during a dry season. It's not where there are many deaths that go on at the same time because of the situation. So it's just a very different scenario.
- [25:10]
Scott
In captivity, though, we definitely have seen, you know, them come back to her gravesite a lot, not only to eat the lovely grass that is growing after the soil had been turned over, but also just hanging out there, you know. And Giza did a lot of hanging out in yard three, right where her mom had passed away, and then see her coming back periodically. And for the first, I guess, six months, we'd see her go back there periodically and just be a little bit more sullen and quiet when she was back near her.
- [25:38]
Kat
And we start with Hana with Rambo's grave. Hana hung out there for a while. She would leave. It's not like she's stuck at her grave site, although we would leave food there every night just in case she decided she wanted to come back. And we would leave produce out, figuring if she didn't need it, some deer, armadillo or somebody else would be more than happy to find some chunks of fruit and would be happy to eat them. And then Ramba had some sort of company. So we saw that with her. I think the elephant we saw it the least with was Maya with Geeta. But Maya was definitely struggling more emotionally and for some reason carried a heavier burden when Gita passed away than I think all of the other elephants have.
- [26:24]
Scott
I agree.
- [26:44]
Kat
Hold on. So we don't have to visit this again, because it's not the happiest of topics. Just so everybody understands, Pocha ended up passing away from kidney failure. What happened is she had a fungal infection that had spread through her entire abdomen that the necropsy team believe she had probably had for at least five years. So this is something that had been going on with her long term and by not getting graphic, but by the looks of everything that was found during her necropsy, it is honestly amazing that she was strong enough to make it for as long as she did. It, I think is definitely one of those cases of mother's will and determination. You know, we tell them all the time while we're trying to get them ready for relocation. We talk about the sanctuary. Sometimes we play videos, show them photos. We used to do the same thing. The caregivers did it with Ramba. You know, they had photos hanging up. This is where you're going. You can do it. Of course, Rambo, who made it seven years, who's only supposed to live a year. So I do think there was some level of hanging on just for exactly what she was able to do.
- [28:16]
Scott
Thank you, Nadia.
- [28:17]
Kat
Bye, Nadia.
- [28:27]
Nadja
I'll let you go. The elephant. Elephant feeding. Are the Australians still there?
- [28:33]
Scott
We got rid of two.