Episode 53: Pupy Needs More Time

Summary

Global Rumblings Podcast - Episode 53: "Pupy Needs More Time"

Release Date: March 25, 2025

Hosts:

• Nadia Mari – Host, Elephants in Japan
• Kat Blais – Co-founder, Global Sanctuary for Elephants (GSE)
• Scott Blais – Co-founder, Global Sanctuary for Elephants (GSE)

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Introduction

In Episode 53 of the Global Rumblings podcast, host Nadia Mari engages in a heartfelt discussion with GSE co-founders Kat and Scott Blais about Pupi, a female African elephant residing at the Buenos Aires Eco Park in Argentina. The episode delves into the challenges faced during Pupi's relocation attempt, the underlying behavioral issues, and the sanctuary's approach to elephant welfare.

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Pupi's Behavioral Challenges

Nadia Mari opens the conversation by addressing the issue of Pupi’s reluctance to enter her transport crate, leading to Scott's return to the sanctuary without her.

Scott Blais shares insights into Pupi’s unique behavior:

“She has beautiful eyes and she, more than anybody I have ever seen, wants to look directly in your eyes.” ([02:09])

Pupi exhibits a strong desire for direct eye contact, a trait that sets her apart from other elephants. Despite her comfort within the crate, Pupi shows distress when the back gate is closed, revealing a deeper layer of distrust and insecurity.

Scott explains:

“She's not comfortable with the door closing. Loves crate, thinks the crate's awesome. She's in it all the time, but just wasn't comfortable with the door closing.” ([02:20])

This discomfort is linked to previous inadequate training methods and Pupi's traumatic past, particularly the loss of her companion, Kuki, four months prior.

Kat Blais adds context about species-specific behaviors:

“African elephants are often mislabeled as aggressive or having behavioral issues, but it's merely a reflection of their natural responsiveness.” ([05:00])

She emphasizes the differences between African and Asian elephants, noting that African elephants tend to respond spontaneously rather than internalizing their reactions.

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Sanctuary’s Approach to Behavioral Rehabilitation

The Blais duo discusses their compassionate and patient approach to rehabilitating Pupi, contrasting it with previous methods that halted sessions at the slightest sign of distress.

Scott outlines their strategy:

“Instead of taking a chance on what could be and knowing that you can always stop, try. If it doesn't work, you're not going to break your spirit.” ([04:23])

Their method focuses on building trust through communication, allowing Pupi to process her feelings without immediate intervention.

To address the crate door issue, they introduced chains and straps to gradually desensitize Pupi to the gate's movement, enabling her to gain confidence in closing mechanisms without fear.

Scott recounts the successful desensitization attempt:

“She just stayed there inside the crate while I banged on the window until it slid down. And even when it slid down, which a bit of a jolt, she just stayed right there.” ([07:54])

This approach allowed Pupi to experience the gate's mechanics on her terms, fostering a sense of control and reducing anxiety.

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Permit and Relocation Logistics

A significant portion of the episode addresses the logistical hurdles associated with Pupi's relocation, particularly concerning export and import permits.

Kat explains the bureaucratic challenges:

“Everything's a process. You can't get approval instantly. There's a lot of stuff going on there.” ([20:35])

Despite setbacks, such as mismatched permit numbers requiring a rushed new import permit, the team remains optimistic. They successfully secured the necessary documentation within 24 hours, a testament to improved processes:

“That new import permit was remitted in less than 24 hours.” ([17:53])

Scott discusses the ongoing efforts to train Pupi for relocation:

“Marcos is going back to Kenya to start working on her crate training and we'll see how she does.” ([17:21])

Their collaborative relationship with the Buenos Aires Eco Park and the supportive community enhances the prospects for a successful relocation.

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Reflection on Training Practices and Species-Specific Needs

The conversation highlights the importance of tailored training practices that respect the natural behaviors and emotional needs of different elephant species.

Kat criticizes generic training methods:

“Anywhere that has Africans and Asians, they think all elephants are supposed to behave like Asians, who are much more grounded and they're much more passive.” ([05:00])

She advocates for recognizing and accommodating the intrinsic differences between African and Asian elephants to ensure effective and humane treatment.

Scott emphasizes the necessity of overcoming fear in training:

“The best thing is, the first thing is let go of their fear. Let go of their fear, their fear of it not going well.” ([13:17])

By fostering an environment of trust and patience, the sanctuary aims to empower elephants like Pupi to overcome past traumas and adapt positively to new settings.

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Conclusion and Future Prospects

As the episode concludes, Kat and Scott express their confidence in Pupi's potential for successful relocation, thanks to their dedicated and empathetic approach.

Scott reflects on the progress made:

“We have time. We have a community who is very, very supportive of that process. We have Pupu, who's exceptional. And now we just have to see how things go next.” ([25:06])

They remain committed to providing Pupi with the necessary time and support, ensuring her well-being and facilitating her transition to a secure sanctuary environment.

Kat summarizes their mission:

“We don't want to sedate her, we don't want to force her in. Since we have the time, we can give her that time, and it's going to benefit everybody.” ([25:23])

The Blais brothers reinforce the importance of patience and individualized care in animal welfare, leaving listeners with a profound understanding of the complexities involved in elephant sanctuary operations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Scott Blais ([02:09]): “She has beautiful eyes and she, more than anybody I have ever seen, wants to look directly in your eyes.”
• Kat Blais ([05:00]): “African elephants are often mislabeled as aggressive or having behavioral issues, but it's merely a reflection of their natural responsiveness.”
• Scott Blais ([04:23]): “Instead of taking a chance on what could be and knowing that you can always stop, try. If it doesn't work, you're not going to break your spirit.”
• Scott Blais ([07:54]): “She just stayed there inside the crate while I banged on the window until it slid down. And even when it slid down, which a bit of a jolt, she just stayed right there.”
• Scott Blais ([13:17]): “The best thing is, the first thing is let go of their fear. Let go of their fear, their fear of it not going well.”
• Scott Blais ([25:06]): “We have time. We have a community who is very, very supportive of that process. We have Pupu, who's exceptional. And now we just have to see how things go next.”

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Final Thoughts

Episode 53 of Global Rumblings offers an intimate glimpse into the intricate world of elephant sanctuary management. Through candid discussions and expert insights, Nadia, Kat, and Scott Blais illuminate the delicate balance between compassionate care and practical challenges in rescuing and rehabilitating elephants like Pupi. Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the emotional and logistical complexities involved, underscoring the importance of patience, trust, and species-specific understanding in animal welfare.

Transcript

[Nadia Mari]

Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mari, and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GSE's initial project. Elephant Sanctuary, Brazil, currently home to five female Asian elephants, lovingly referred to as the Girls. Hello, everyone. Welcome back and thank you for tuning in this week for a new episode of Global Rumblings. I'll be talking to Kat and Scott about Pupi, the female African elephant at the Buenos Aires Eco park in Argentina and why Scott actually returned to the sanctuary recently without Pupi. So let's head over to Brazil to say hi to Kat and Scott. Hello, you two.

[Scott]

Hey, Nadia, how are you doing?

[Kat]

Hi, Nadia.

[Scott]

Cat's laughing already.

[Kat]

No, it's just the lead in. It's like why you return without our failure.

[Nadia Mari]

Yeah.

[Scott]

How it feels so that I know that's how you hear it.

[Kat]

So.

[Nadia Mari]

Yep. So we're, we're right in the topic, huh? Very exciting times. I mean, your supporters are all on the edge of their seats, you know, buying, bought the popcorn, getting ready, waiting. But Puppy is not quite ready. She doesn't want or she's not comfortable with the back gate of her transport crate being closed, so you can't load her up. You've decided to return home because you have other things, of course, to do. You've got a sanctuary to run. So maybe let's dive just straight in and you tell us about your first week or about the week in Argentina with your veterinarian, Dr. Trish.

[Scott]

Well, let's talk with Pupi's awesome. She's amazing and she has beautiful eyes and she, more than anybody I have ever seen, wants to look directly in your eyes.

[Kat]

Any elephant.

[Scott]

Any elephant. Yeah, I've seen we have elephants that want to look at you, but she wants to like, make direct eye contact and yeah, she's really, she's. It's fun being around African elephant again. It's been a long time. Very different behavior, very different processing speeds, you know, and reaction speeds and, you know, but she's, she. Bottom line is she's not comfortable with the door closing. Loves crate, thinks the crate's awesome. She's in it all the time, but just wasn't comfortable with the door closing. And we could go round and round about all the reasons why and what to do next. But we don't really know all this scenario. Of course, the bigger picture, as you guys all know, is Kuki passed away about four months ago. Some people see Pupi as having more independence and more strength and a stronger will than she used to have. I kind of got the impression early on that it was more difficult, defensive, more self protective behavior, which is putting on a little bit more of a front. And that may be part of the insecurity with being closed in because no one else is there to protect her. What she had for so many years, you know, we really don't know. So bottom line is not bottom line, but one of the elements with her is the way they were training her was not ideal. They were having her come into the crate and having her do behaviors and then they would slowly have people walk towards the back and try to desensitize, closing the gate. But they kept the desensitization really, really, really sterile and really minimal. Minimal. I mean, as people were moving towards the back of the crate, it's like centimeter by centimeter and stop. And if Pupi did anything to negative, they would just stop the session instead of saying, hey, let her check it out, let her get frustrated, let her vent, let her say, whoa, what? What are you doing there? So after a few days, because they didn't want to make any changes because they're so afraid of change. And I think that holds more most elephant programs back, I think that holds most humans back. Fear of what might go wrong.

[Kat]

Sure.

[Scott]

Instead of taking a chance on what could be and knowing that you can always stop, try. If it doesn't work, you're not going to break your spirit. You're just saying, you know, oh, across your comfort line. Okay, I'll step back. And that's again as a way of building trust. And communication. And trust through communication. Let her know what her limit is. Okay, that's your limit. I hear that. I'll take a breath, analyze, process. Now that you've had time to analyze, is that still your threshold or can we try again? But they didn't give a chance for that communication to happen. But that is really, really, really, really common with captive elephants.

[Nadia Mari]

They didn't want to do anything wrong.

[Kat]

Sure. And they're used to also, and we see this in different facilities, at least here in South America, is that anywhere that has Africans and Asians, they think all elephants are supposed to behave like Asians, who are much more grounded and they're much more passive. And then the African labels all get African elephants all get labeled as aggressive or having behavioral issues, and it's nothing more than them being African elephants. I mean, talked about it many, many times. They're very different. And one of the differences with, you know, an African and Asian elephant, if you get an aggressive response, you know, if you get the kind of lashing out that Africans can do just on a whim, you know, from an Asian elephant, is very different because it is. You're going to have to have pushed harder. With most of them, they are going to internalize it more. A lot of them are going to hold on to it. It is a bigger deal. And with African elephants, it's that they don't even really process much. They just respond. But it goes away as quickly as it happens most of the time. So it's like, oh, my God, what did you do? And then three seconds later, it's, hey, how's it going? You know, so there is this vast different difference that is not always acknowledged. So this fear of pushing her too far, you know, is very different than what they had to deal with with Mara. Although those two teams weren't actually even.

[Scott]

The same team, there's very few people there now that were there with Mara. There are a few of them, but very, very few. Yeah, so they never really had that opportunity to try to desensitize that way, and they were too protective and too cautious. Instead of just making noise, you know, it doesn't mean you go in and slam the crate right away, you know, but you start walking around. So we actually opened up the side windows. As one of the first things we opened up the side windows, we introduced chains and straps, but that was to try to pull. Pull the door because she was so insecure about people going to the back because they hadn't desensitized that well, that she was so watchful of that movement that you couldn't even get to the back door to try to be able to push it. So we introduced chains and straps, knowing that we were probably gonna have to pull the door closed from the front and just to try to desensitize her to a chain and a strap, not that you're putting it on her leg, not that you're tying her down. And the first time we did that and, like, made. There's a big fat chain, you know, I grabbed the biggest chain we had, and those are emergency chains, you know, if something goes wrong on the trip, made a whole lot of noise. And from the front, you know, after a couple of times, like from the front almost bowling With a chain. So it goes back behind her along her side, all the way to the back of the crate. And she just, oh, okay, no big deal. Picked it up, put it overhead, put the train around her test, put it in her mouth for a minute. They were so afraid, oh, she might eat it, she might do this. Okay, let her eat it one time.

[Kat]

She is not going to eat three meters of change.

[Scott]

No, the strap she could eat, but she really didn't show any behavior that was going to indicate that. But if she started to, okay, she can eat a little piece. So we can cut the strap off. And we're never worried about it going wrong because you know what you can do to prevent that or stop that process. And at one point, Tom, who used to work at the Eco Park Buenos Aires and now works for foundation friends Weber and still is working with their coordinations and for transports of some of their animals at the Eco Park. At one point he said, you know, he started to call my attention to something because I was bent around, bent down looking around the corner at something. And he was about to say, that whole chain is in her mouth. And it was about a meter and a half piece of chain. And she like spit it out. Like she had been chewing out a hunk of grass for, you know, for 10 minutes. It was like saliva filled chain. It's like, that's disgusting. And then she, what were you doing? Big bright smile on her face, you know, but just giving her a chance to experience a little bit different life, you know, and showing what she's, what she's capable of tolerating. And she was awesome with it.

[Nadia Mari]

Yeah, I saw in the video that she, she was playing with the gate herself, but obviously on her terms, she's opening and shutting it. So the noise level, maybe she's getting used to that.

[Scott]

Well, that was definitely on her terms. So what they used to do when working with it. And again, it's understandable based on the knowledge, based on the experience, based on this, this, the, the lack of experience that you have with elephants and, you know, not sure what they're capable of sometimes not sure what they're capable of tolerating or working through because you just don't have the experience. And so they would, when they would do the sessions, they would get the gate ready and as soon as she would back out and show that she was a little frustrated or go to do something aggressive to the gate, they would actually immediately call her inside. Sorry, immediately call her inside to the barn and stop the session or do a full Reset and then call her out again. Once the gate was then secure again with the strap, she actually had the ability to pull the gate open and closed as she wanted to, and she had a great time with that. The gate immediately had a closing mechanism that when the gate closes, it latches on its own. And she actually broke that at one point. Not a big deal. I mean, she didn't actually break it into pieces, but it bent it enough that it wasn't catching well. And so when. And actually made a lot of noise. So a lot of times she was good with the gate closing until it made that latch noise. And the gate had two sounds. One when the first latch was touched, which lifted up the latch, and the second, when the latch falling down. And if she pushed the gate, if she stepped back too fast, it would actually pop that latch back open before it had a chance to fully secure. So she would sometimes bang that. And eventually we cut that off so we could close the gate without that sound. But by that point, again, we're. We didn't have a lot of time. Didn't have a lot of time to work through her insecurities. Didn't work. Had a lot of time. Did not have a lot of time to work through her distrust. But we closed that. But that allowed the gate to actually full swing fully inside, so she could push it out or push it in. And she had a great time with that. Pushing me all the way through and into the crate. And then as she was trying to still walk into the crate, she's like it's closing on her because of gravity. And she would use her elbow and use her hip to hold the gate in the inward position, but she didn't really like that. So she'd walk her way back out, open the gate fully, tell the gate to stay open on the outside, and then she'd walk in.

[Nadia Mari]

Maybe she can walk in and then just close it with her. I don't know, grab it with her tail and just close it herself.

[Scott]

I was trying to will that to happen, but the physical dynamics don't work. The gate's too big and her body's too wide for the gate to swing through that way. But trust me, we were thinking about all the modifications that we could do to possibly make that work. But the biggest benefit of that is she would do that when we weren't doing anything with her. We weren't trying to do a training session. We weren't trying to do anything with the kids. She would just start playing with it and get frustrated with it, and Then she'd be totally chill. She'd walk back in. And one of the biggest benefits for that was for the caregivers to see she can have that moment of, you know, frustration on the gate. What's this gate doing here? You know? You know, don't close on me. You know, beat the shit out of it. Sorry. Beat the. Beat the heck out of it. But then she just walked right back in. It's like, okay, everything's fine. And the caregivers were blown away how much she processed. And early on, before we even did that with the gate, you could see her step back. And when she would step back, when she was a little bit uncomfortable with the sound or something else, when they were trying to know, slowly work their way to the back, they would call her in right away. And at one time I said, just wait, you know, let her process for a minute. You know, give her that time, and then she'll let you know when she's ready to come in. And a second later, you know, she. You could see her turn and breathe. And then they called her back in and said, you can come in now. And that she came right on up to where they were. And you could see the difference. What it was for the caregivers and for her to be able to have that moment.

[Nadia Mari]

What are you doing differently? Or what have you told the trainers at the eco park to do differently now to get her more accustomed to the. To the gate closing behind her?

[Scott]

The best thing is, the first thing is let go of their fear. Let go of their fear, their fear of it not going well. It's your fear, your anxiety. You are going so slow. You're not giving her a chance to show her what she's capable of, for her to show you what she's capable of. And so that's the big thing. They may be moving the crate location to a different side, which gives a little bit more flexibility, because there's on the side that they need to go to, to close the door, to close the gate, there's a big, giant, historic water trough that can't be damaged or touched or moved. And it's really, really difficult for the caregivers to climb over that trough to get to the gate. She continued, just playing with noise, with chains and straps and movement. On that first day that we really. They. They allowed. It took a few days before they allowed us to do anything like that because they were very, very afraid of it. The first day, we're like throwing a chain over the top of the crate, and it's banging on the other side. And we're opening windows and banging on the windows. And the more noise we made, the more excited she got. In a composite way one time, she was way on the other side of the enclosure. Not that it's that far, 15 meters.

[Kat]

Away, all of 10 steps.

[Scott]

Yeah. But we're banging with a sledgehammer to open a gate that had been damaged and. And not a gate, a window. And she came right on over all curious and calm and checking it out. And I hadn't finished opening the gate yet. And they were surprised that I keep kept banging on the gate. It's like, well, just because she's there doesn't mean I have to stop working, you know, banging on the. On the window. So I kept banging on the window. She just stayed there inside the crate while I banged on the window until it slid down. And even when it slid down, which a bit of a jolt, she just stayed right there. So she did really well. So I said, don't be afraid to make noise, don't be afraid to walk around, don't be afraid to explain, explore different options and just make it dynamic for you and for her.

[Nadia Mari]

So talking of permits, I'm looking and so I'm just sidetracked looking at some questions I've written down. I can't read my writing anymore. One of I was watching some of the videos of your lives and some of the questions of your supporters. So talking of time, I know you don't like to put your finger on it, but when do you think you will be returning, respectively? Do we still have enough time for our export and import permits? Not that we've got the whole shamozzle again with the Vogons needing to stamp off everything. Is that still okay, that timeline?

[Kat]

We don't know at this point who's even gonna go first. Kenya's gonna get her crate soon and her import permit expires first. Now at this point, because as is Kenya, Kenya's as is unfortunately true when you deal with any level of bureaucracy. There was a hiccup when we were there about one of the numbers on the import cites permit not matching the last export permit number, although the last the number was referenced it they just weren't happy with it. So we actually had to get a new rush import cites permit from Brazil while they were in Argentina. And a rush of course, because she was supposed to be leaving like two days after that. So they actually have a new import permit for Pupi. So she's good until like August or something. So Kenya's permit is actually going to expire first, but she's never been exposed to her crate. We don't know how she's going to respond to her crate. We do know that both her and Tammy seem to have issues, trust issues with being closed into certain areas we suspect from things being cleaned and so on and so forth. So we have no idea how she's going to be with that. But Marcos, who is. Who we sent to work with her to get her blood samples and form a relationship with her, he is going to go back to. He's a caregiver from here, originally from the eco park. He's going to go back to Kenya probably next week, a week, 10 days, and start working on her crate training and we'll see how she does.

[Nadia Mari]

And Joanna was successful?

[Scott]

Yes. Yep. That was all good. Yeah.

[Kat]

Yes. We all had a little mini party. She was very, very good for it.

[Scott]

Yeah. The non mini party was on Wednesday, which is the day we arrived in Buenos Aires. I think it was even Thursday morning. We got the notice saying there's a problem with the import permit numbers. Like, oh, no, we're supposed to leave.

[Kat]

Second problem, because then there was the other problem with I. It's just inevitable. I just.

[Scott]

There were a couple little issues. So the.

[Nadia Mari]

So poopies permits are okay. Kenya, you'll be re. Redoing or.

[Scott]

No, I think everything's okay right now. Everything's okay. But if they have to be redone, everybody's aligned. And to show the difference now compared to what it has been for the last two years, that new import permit was remitted in less than 24 hours.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh, wow.

[Scott]

It was remitted and on an airplane on its way to the border within.

[Kat]

24 hours because we need the actual hard copy at the border.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh, I see.

[Kat]

At the border. Danny, who works for Seb, he worked with the people at cites, managed to get the permit, had to put it on a plane from where it was to Sao Paulo and then Sao Paulo to where they were at the border to get it there within 24 hours.

[Nadia Mari]

They were literally physically the original. No emails, no fax, no everything. The original literally has to be at the border. Okay, so we've got the permits crossed off. Other questions were, is she frightened of the crate? Well, no. You said she isn't frightened of the crate. She's having a great time. She's just frightened.

[Scott]

And it's not even frightened. It's just a distrust of what happens after.

[Nadia Mari]

Distrust of what happens when she's closed in. Another question Was. Was poss. Because you mentioned chains, would it be possible sort of to. To force her? Like when Ramba, you, You. You like, remember, during Rama's location, you put a chain around her, her foot, just to stop her backing back. I mean, you had a plane to catch. It was difficult. She wasn't like dragged in, as Kat said. It was just very. Just the chain was just kept tight. So would that have been an option?

[Scott]

No, no, not at that moment. At that moment, no. Because she is unlike Ramba, who, I mean, Pupa is not a circus elephant that has been chained over and over and over again for years. You know, in very vastly different scenario. With those two scenarios, she did have change in the past. The other thing is working within the team of the Eco park and working within their comforts and discomforts with that process. Somebody actually said, while we're there, if it's this hard here, I can't imagine, because it's difficult to balance all the different personalities and all the individuals and all the different elements, the political side, the supervisory side, the caregiver side. And they have a huge team there. And that part is a little bit of a nightmare for us. It's really difficult. They're great people, they're amazing people, but that balance is really, really difficult, delicate.

[Kat]

And everything's a process. I mean, you can't get, like. You can't just ask for something and get approval. It has to go from like one group to another group to another group, up to this people and then back down. So it's just. There's a lot of stuff going on there.

[Scott]

So we chose, instead of working in that direction, we chose to help them see what is capable, what they're capable of. And we introduced the idea of introducing a bracelet that can have a chain on it to hold her in place while the gate is closed or while they start playing with the gate so she doesn't just run back and hit it. It's that running back and hitting it that's creating that very African, like, reaction where she's not really processing what's happening, she's just responding. And if she had stopped and processed what it was, I think she'd be better. But she's so reactionary to it that she's not giving her. Not giving herself the space to process. So we explained it in that way and what can happen. And even if you never use it, it's not a bad thing to train. You know, actually, most AZA facilities demand it, you know, because of if you need it for medical procedure. You never know what's going to be needed. So if you condition it, it can be a relatively easy process. And they kept talking about, you know, won't you be afraid of the chain? It's like, no, the chain does nothing. The chain is not the enemy. It's the human with the chain. And the human with the chain being negative or the human with the chain being passive and cooperative and respectful and considerate of. What that process is, is that creates a completely different psychological environment for her for. For what it means to have a chain. So we tried to explain that a little bit more. Everyone seemed on board with it. At the same time. They're going to be working on other things. And part of me, the chain is just to create something new. She's been doing the same sort of sensory stimulation for a long time. You know, pick this color, pick this object, you know, which hand has food, which hand do you want? You know, and it really becomes very sterile in that. So it's like, well, let's introduce something that's completely different. Different and create a little bit different intimacy with her, with she and her caregivers as well.

[Kat]

And the other thing with Ramba is, as you mentioned, she had a plane to catch. I mean, we were. That was still early on, and we did not have $300,000 to lose if she did not get on that plane because we were not going to be able to. It took years to raise that money at that point in our, in our growth. And like you said, it was passive. It was all done by hand. It wasn't even a come along. It was every time she stepped in, Scott just pulled the chain and locked it on something so she couldn't back out. But, you know, the thing we had with Pupi is we don't have this. You have to do it now. Timeframe. You know, it isn't like some of the other elephants. I mean, we've never used a chain on anybody else. But, you know, with some of the other elephants, like with Bambi, she wasn't really 100% ready. But the zoo started talking about, see, she's not going to travel. We need to go back to the judge and see if we can get him to decide that she should stay after all because of blah, blah, blah. And you have these situations, ladies, situations where you don't necessarily have like a specific day, but you do have a facility that really isn't behind their elephant moving. And them not going in a certain timeframe can cause problems to the point where you do lose custody of an elephant over something like that. And we don't have that with the zoo, you know, the eco park. They're the ones who want to send her to us, you know, and we're all good with receiving her, so we have this nice relationship that allows Pupi to take whatever time she needs to get comfortable with it. Us to be able to work with the caregivers and the trainers to expand their understanding. That is not only reflected in how they deal with her, but then gets to be reflected in how they care for other animals at the zoo. You know, and this can all be a very nice, peaceful, passive thing, because the reality is, once that gate is closed behind her, and then they open it, and then they close it, and then they open it, she'll probably be so easy with it all. It is that fear of, why are you doing it? What's going on? And once they. Once she sees it's not really anything.

[Scott]

Yeah. And if it's nothing, then why are you being so secretive about it?

[Kat]

Sure.

[Scott]

You know, why are you creating this. This mystery about what it is to close the gate?

[Kat]

Why are you sneaking around? Why does everybody get so anxious? You know, it is when people are trying to do it for relocation, there is that anxiety. Oh, no. It has to work this time. And, you know, we talk about how sensitive they are and how much they pick up on emotions, and, you know, if when they do everything else, everybody's all peaceful and relaxed, and then it's time to close the gate.

[Scott]

Lost Internet.

[Nadia Mari]

Yep. I can't hear you. Can you hear me?

[Kat]

But this is still recording. Okay, so it's time to close the gate, and everybody is all sorts of anxious. You know, that changes everything.

[Scott]

It's not easy, but we do have time. But bottom line, we have time. We have a community who is very, very supportive of that process. We have Pupu, who's Pupi, who's exceptional. And now we just have to see how things go next. And time will tell.

[Kat]

Yeah. And again, our support base, they know us, you know, they hopefully trust us and realize that, you know, we don't want to sedate her, we don't want to force her in, you know, since we have the time, we can give her that time, and it's going to benefit everybody. So take a step back, give her that space, and she'll get here.

[Scott]

Can't wait for it, though. It'll be.

[Kat]

I think our poor caregivers are going to be in shock at the difference between Africans and Asians.

[Scott]

But she's amazing.

[Kat]

It'll get them moving faster. Oh, my God, she's so much fun.

[Scott]

She's such gosh. She's brilliant. She's really wonderful. So. And yes, I am once again smitten. Shocking. And that wrapped up our podcast for this week. Thank you all for joining us. I'm Nadja, your host. Please please remember to follow us on the buttons below. Thanks, Natalie.

[Kat]

Bye.

[Nadia Mari]

Well, that was a fun end to this week's podcast. I was staring at a frozen screen, busily texting Scott and Kat, saying we need to reconnect because we've been cut off. But they are the professionals. They finished off the podcast without me. And I hope that all your questions regarding Pupi's imminent relocation to the Sanctuary, despite this small setback, have been answered. And always feel free to reach out to GSE and their entire team for any questions you may have. Subscribe to the podcast, hit the notification bell so that you never miss an episode. And until we meet up for our next episode, take care.