Loading summary
Transcript59 lines
- [00:19]
Nadia Mari
Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mari, and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GSE's initial project Elephant Sanctuary. Brazil, currently home to five female Asian elephants, lovingly referred to as the Girls.
- [00:57]
Kat
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to a new episode of Global Rumblings. Thank you for tuning in again this week. Tonight, be honest, I don't know what we are going to be talking about today because we are going to say hi to Kat in Brazil and we are going to say hi to Scott in Argentina. So hello, you two.
- [01:13]
Scott
Hi.
- [01:14]
Hey, Nadia. Hey, Cat.
- [01:18]
I was going to say, Scott, you have to at least say hello.
- [01:23]
I did, I did. Hello. Hello. I just given you the lead.
- [01:27]
Kat
Okay. Take the floor.
- [01:29]
Scott
Yeah, Yeah. I don't really even know. We have a lot of questions lately about what I think because we share a lot. People get brought into elephant rescues and how all of that happens way before what normally happens in other organizations. You know, usually you only hear about things when everything is definitive and we try to share, we share probably too much. We share a little bit of everything. And people often don't understand why it takes so long when people don't realize that most of these rescues that they only hear about last minute are rescues that have been going on for years, sometimes over 10 years. So it ends up being a little difficult at times when people seem to get a little angsty, that we haven't been able to get elephants out of places that they feel like it's already been a couple of years. How come they're not at your sanctuary yet? And God knows I wish it was that easy, but unfortunately it is not. And Scott has been in Argentina this past week touching base with everything that's going on with Kenya and everything that is going on with Pupi. And it is part of a very long process. But I think it'd be good for people to possibly understand a little bit more of why this can't happen overnight, like everybody wishes it could, including us.
- [03:03]
It would be so easy if it could happen overnight. You guys all know, I mean, everyone listening to this knows the complexity that we're dealing with. And I think it comes up even more when we get to the point that we are, with these adaptations to the transport Crates. And there's so many things that we can't fully say because there's a lot of relationships involved. There's a lot of dynamics, there's a lot of politics, it's a lot of bureaucracy. And we all know how easy it is to upset everybody. You know, all it takes is sometimes a misspoken word or a confused translation and everything wants to fall apart. So it's really, really delicate sometimes. And so we. We always want to share as much as possible. Sometimes there are constraints that we can't share. But as K, I was down in Mendoza for a few days with Marcos and checking in with Kenya, getting to know Kenya a little bit more, trying to take the next steps forward with her transfer. I will start off by saying what a gem of an elephant she is. Just absolutely amazing. Everyone talks about how big and beautiful she is, but she's a really amazing, amazing spirit inside. And when we compare both she and Pupi, and now I'm actually in Buenos Aires with Pupi, and we just left a little adaptation session with her about 10 minutes ago. So now that I'm here, you see the direct comparison between the two. And with Kenya, she is so emotional. She has so much expression and much more vocal and playful and silly. It takes a lot to gain her trust. And it's really fast to lose her trust. And to lose her trust, it can take nothing. A little misstep, and she's like, I'm out of here and walking away. And because her diet is not really balanced, she gets a lot of produce. It makes it limited what we can do for training reinforcement. And so we end up relying a lot on our emotional reinforcement. And sometimes she just wants you to hang out with her, and sometimes she just doesn't want you to try to be her friend. And trying to find that balance with her is really, really interesting. And giving her that space to ebb and throw through her emotional discovery of what it means adapting to transfer. And then Pupi, on the other hand, right now she's actually a little bit more closed down. She's a little bit reclusive. And I was talking to somebody about that today that, you know, maybe we're going through that continuation of the grief process. She lost Cookie. She's on her own. Within a couple of months, the crate arrived. It's also interesting and exciting, but that's getting a little bit boring because it's the same thing over all the time, you know. And now she's starting to withdraw a little bit more, which would be understandable as Part of that grief of, you know, settling into her new reality, which is a new reality of solitary living. And maybe she's feeling the weight of that. So it's really fascinating to see both these female African elephants, vastly different individuals, vastly different emotional states, and starting to think about how they might help each other once they do get to sanctuary.
- [06:31]
Kat
But that sounds like. Yeah, well, it sounds like it's a little bit. A little bit off still. Has. Has Pupi allowed the back door to be closed yet? We talked about that.
- [06:42]
Scott
Not yet. We're working on a couple different. You know, we're working on a couple different approaches. One of the things that we're working on, which we introduced before, is using chain training, and some of our supporters have been shocked by that. But the reality is we've always talked about that being an option. We've just never had to use it.
- [07:03]
And the reality is, so many places use it, but just don't talk about it. I mean, it is, again, one of those things of we're super transparent, and people really like that about us until we say something that is a little off to them. But, I mean, again, it's mandatory in Europe. Most zoos in the US Use it. Sanctuaries in the US Also use it. So it's not like places aren't doing exactly what we're doing. And even further than what we're doing, we're talking about using it just to get them to, like, sit still for a hot second, to be able to close the door. So they realize that closing the door isn't the end of the world because they're Africans. And sometimes the littlest things are the end of the world until they see they're not. But, you know, because we talk about it and we're open and honest about it, all of a sudden people like, oh, my God, you're gonna put a chain on them? And it's like, yeah, a lot of these places put a chain on them for their entire transport home. Just because you don't know about it. Just like all the other things you don't know about that. Go on. Doesn't mean anything.
- [08:14]
Kat
And also, I remember last time you said, it's a bracelet. Sorry, I can't see you, Kat. And also, you said last time, it's actually a bracelet, an inverter commas bracelet that goes around and then there's a chain. So it's not like what we think, what we see, like these pictures of elephants chained up, say, in Thailand, and these riding camps. There's not these gigantic Chains around them, is it?
- [08:38]
Scott
No, it's really subtle. You know, as Kat's saying, you know, the transparency that we offer actually, you know, creates a, an opportunity to be ridiculed or judged because we're telling you everything. And just because you don't hear the story somewhere else doesn't mean it's not happening. And as Kat just said, it's legally mandated in Europe. So if we go to do a help with a transfer, you know, another organization, we're going to have to, it's legally mandated, you know, deliberately prior. And actually, you know, part of that is the crate designs in most cases actually require that as part of safety. So our crate design actually allows us to not use chains, but it is still the tool that we have. And, you know, and that's one of the things that when we look at our history of what we've, how we've got to this point, we have a whole slew. We have, you know, a bevy of opportunities that we can use. Emotional reward, food reward, psychological assessment, subtle communication, micro communication with what they're doing. We also have the more physical tools such as chains that might be used at some point. So this is where we're at right now. Because Shupupi is so hyper responsive to the gate, we just need her to slow down. And what traditionally happens is elephants are trained to accept chains. They're chained in the crate and then people go put bars behind them. And it's the only way that it can be done safely with our gait. You actually don't have to go directly behind them. It actually is a safer opportunity. So whether you're putting a slide bar or you're putting it closing the gate, you still need them to stay up at the front and not have that negative response. So what happens is she comes in with her bracelet, she puts a chain on, she stays there, you close the gate and everything's good. And most of the time it's not the closing. Once they're closed in, it's not that big a deal. It's the sound of it closing and then there's an immediate response and then they settle in and, and then you start lifting up the crate and there's an immediate response and then they settle in and you get on the road, there's an immediate response and then they settle in. So it's not this, you know, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. It is reaction analysis, reaction analysis, reaction analysis and they settle into the process. It's not dramatic, it's not traumatic, and it is part of what we are going to have to do in order to get them to this next life. So that's where we are. She's doing exceedingly well here. Exceedingly well. And one of the biggest changes we've seen is with the team because they had that same negative response about chains, and they had all kinds of questions about chains and they had all kinds of fears about chains. And once they started seeing her response and once they started seeing what we were actually asking them to do, like, wow, this is easy, this is nothing. She's awesome. She's tolerating this. And they start realizing how much of our fears are human emotion, going into it and not realizing what it actually means to them. And it's really simple.
- [11:32]
Kat
So just, just to recap, she has a bracelet on her foot. She goes into the crate, and then there's a chain in the crate which just holds her in position. So the supporters is not like she's got a train around her foot and you're dragging her into the crate. She walks in with a bracelet and then the bracelet is connected. Yeah. Okay. And I was also just thinking, you. You said at the last few episodes where we've talked about the difference between Africans and Asians, these are the first Africans that you are bringing to the sanctuary. So the. The difference in their in to the crate is probably very new and unusual for your supporters as well. So maybe that's why they are suddenly now thinking, why are you suddenly using chains? You've never done it before, but as you've just explained, it is. Well, just a gentle guidance really, isn't it? But I know everybody trusts you. At least your supporters do. I mean, there's always haters, will be haters, and it's all on elephant time.
- [12:28]
Scott
There's definitely, you know, legitimate supporters who are concerned about that direction. And, you know, I get it. Everybody has this vision in their head of what chains are to elephants. But it's like so many things with elephants. It's. You don't. Everybody talks about how intelligent they are, yet when it comes to things like this, they just automatically assume that they're going to see a chain and it's going to be the end of the world. First of all, poopy and kooky. I don't know that they were ever chained except for put on ropes when they were brought. When they were three years old.
- [13:03]
I actually, before you go on, I just want to interject on that because they were. I learned today they used to be chained in their barn. They all used to.
- [13:12]
Kat
Yeah.
- [13:12]
Scott
I mean, not Terribly surprising. Everybody forgets back in the day, which always makes me feel really old when we say it. This is how elephants were managed. There weren't sanctuaries. There weren't these things that people now assume, you know, protective contact, all of that, that they didn't exist. So, not surprisingly, that they were chained. I know Palooza had a big stake in the middle of her yard still, which wasn't used anymore, but it was where they used to chain her up when she was on exhibit. But I find it interesting that one people don't consider that the elephants can differentiate between someone using a chain in a passive way and someone using a chain in an aggressive way. Especially since so many people are always like, oh, they can feel your vibe. You know, if you're a good person, they'll know, so on and so forth. Yet somehow in this instance, they can't differentiate. And also, we have some of the same people who are upset about a chain being like, can't you just sedate her? It's like sedating her would be so much more dangerous. I mean, it is. There is a risk of death anytime you anesthetize any being. But for elephants, it's fairly significant. They are big animals with a very slow heart rate, and you do not want to sedate an elephant if you do not have to. So it's a little strange to me that people are like, oh, you could just sedate her instead. Which not only is a dangerous process in general, but then she will wake up from anesthesia when she is in a box on the road. So then you have this realization all of a sudden when she comes too fully that she doesn't know where she is, why things are vibrating, what is going on, and this is the way she's going to wake up. Which clearly is not something you want. But, you know, again, you go back to, no, we're not going to drag her in the crate. But there have been elephant rescues that people have supported, some of our supporters have supported, where elephants have literally been sedated and pulled into a crate. So it still, for me, keeps falling. No, not by us. It still falls back to that. Sometimes wishing we weren't as transparent, because a lot of organizations aren't. And it's easier when people don't really know what's going on and what you're doing.
- [15:39]
I was doing an interview the other day, and it's actually separate from the interview. It was a reporter from Reuters, and we were just talking, and he said, I've been following the process for a Long time. And he said, I have to tell you, the, the. It's amazing all the little things that go into this. He said, we on the outside, even journalists that have been covering this transformation of the Eco Park Buenos Aires for years, you know, we don't know a tenth of what it takes. You know, you guys are sharing the journey with us. You're being really transparent about all the different steps. He said, but even when we're talking now, all the little tiny pieces and considerations and conversations and the evolution within the mindset of the team, you know, the evolution within the mindset of the politicians, you know, all of that is so much more dynamic. And he said, we can't even touch that story because we're still talking about the bigger picture. And he said, but it's just really amazing to consider, amazing to start to see how subtle all of those considerations are and all the layers that are coming that come into play before you make any decision.
- [16:43]
Yes, we wish it was easy. You have no idea how much we wish it was easy. And I will use that as a segue to talk about Tammy, who is the male at Mendoza, who is Guijamino's biological father, who we also had people say, you know, I'm so surprised nothing's happened with him lately. And the complexities that exist not only with being able to. Being able to get approval for a male elephant to come from Argentina to Brazil, but also to make any of that happen within the restrictions that exist in Mendoza are astronomical. And I will just say I have loved Tammy from the first time I met him. I have a soft spot for males. I think they always get the short end of the stick. People are generally fearful of them. They automatically assume when they go into musk, they're aggressive. Even though that's not the case, he's lovely, he's soft. He's got these tiny little ears, even for an Asian elephant, that make him so charming. And there is that fear that he's never going to get out of there. But it has nothing to do with the fact that not only us, but foundation friends, Weber, who's been working on this, the Eco park and anyone else we can bring into this, isn't trying to do everything they know how to do to figure out a way to make this work.
- [18:23]
Kat
We talked about it in the last episode and Scott and you explained how his. His area is just not suitable for training because it's from the top. Just in case people didn't listen, they can listen to the. I mean, why don't you Listen to our podcast, but in case you missed it. So it's a. It's a podcast before. So you can't train it from the top because of his joint issues. He can't go down into the tunnel where Pocha and Gijamina were. I had this fantastic idea. Which you didn't have. Of course you did. He can't go to Kenya's space when she's gone because they're separated. You'd have to put him into a crate to get him there. So you've just got these. Not logistical, but just these environmental problems to go by. And then also you did share with us are repeating it because there's so much information out there, so it's always good to repeat ourselves. You need somebody to go down there for two or three months. So again, any. Any elephant trainers out there who want to spend two or three months building a bond with Tammy the male Asian elephant, to bring him to sanctuary? Write to podcast@global elephants.org. yeah, so you've got. You've got that problem as well. I mean, unless, I don't know. Scott moves to Argentina for three months, but you've got a sanctuary to run.
- [19:38]
Scott
So, I mean, we have literally talked about the two of us going there. This is how difficult this whole scenario is. It's getting into winter. It's cold there. If you have an elephant that is cold, they don't want to train, they don't want to do anything. They want to find a warm space and hide. We're having to work on getting heaters for both him and Kenya. We're having to work on redesign for the only training wall that we can see that would be possible to get him into. Even though it's not like he's exactly thrilled to go into that area either. I mean, his feet are a mess, his front legs are swollen at this point. He's just. He makes me. I love him. And he makes me sad but happy at the same time when you see him, because there's still such a sweetness about him. And it's just such an impossible scenario because it's not like we just need somebody to be there for a few weeks. Sorry, babe. I think there's a big.
- [20:44]
The difficulty. Level of difficulty and complexity. Sorry. The level of difficulty and challenges is really unimaginable. And here I am just a couple hundred kilometers away in Buenos Aires and talking to the team here and showing them some of the scenarios, and they say, how. What are you going to do? How are you going to do this? It's really not easy. It's. I mean, that's saying really, really mildly. It's really, really, really. I mean, impossibly difficult. But I say impossibly. It's not impossible, just infinite challenges. But we're working on it, you know.
- [21:24]
Kat
Yeah, I was going to say, can you share any. So we don't end on a sad note, because when I listened to Last, or Last, our last podcast, you know, I automatically fell in love with Tammy as well. And I felt so. Well, I don't know, I just felt, Scott said just very sad for him as well. And males are always, always the ones that are in captivity. I know from elephants in Japan as well, was the ones that suffer the most because they are sort of pushed aside. So, yeah, you're working on it.
- [21:52]
Scott
But yeah, Nadia wants more. What are you doing.
- [22:02]
Kat
Apart from you two going out there? Well, no, obviously, no, difficult, difficult. So we only got. We've got the permits, we've got the crate, we've got everything. But yeah, you need to train him. He has to have. He has to have trust, as you said in the last episode. He. Nobody's really been. Apart from feeding him. And you explained about. We talked about trunk washers and about, you know, drawing blood and everything. And that is everything that he's going to have to go through as well to fulfill all the criteria to come.
- [22:30]
Scott
So, yeah, yeah, we're working on. What are we doing. Oh, you're such a jerk. No, I didn't curse. I'm allowed to call him a jerk. We are working on trying to get more than one person to go to Mendoza and not just work with Kenya, but start working with Tammy as well. About the first big thing that has to happen is his training wall has to be reconstructed. No one can safely use the training area that we're going to use now. It has a huge little section in the middle that he could stick his entire trunk through and eat who was ever on the other side of that wall. And it's actually. You have to climb down like into a manhole type scenario to get into it. And there's about. You have a safe space. It's. What did you say, about three meters.
- [23:32]
Two meters is less than two meters. Less than three meters. It's about two meters.
- [23:36]
So you have some space, but not when there's a giant hole that he can stick his whole trunk through. It's literally like floor to ceiling space that needs to clearly not be there. So Scott's already redesigned it and AutoCAD. It's very pretty. You can Rotate it from every direction known to man and get all these wonderful views. So that's all well and good, but we can't go and do that. The zoo, they're the ones who have to agree to it, get somebody to build it, so on and so forth. So we are very much trying to push that forward as much as we can. We're trying to push forward. Him getting a heater. Kenya has her heater now, but his isn't working at this point. You know, we're. We, again, are hoping that the both of us can actually go and spend at least a couple of weeks working with him. We're hoping she's gone at that point and at sanctuary and Happy. Happy. But males are hard sometimes. You know, he's had an entire lifetime of people, even in a zoo setting, not trusting him and not building relationships with him. So.
- [24:57]
Kat
So. So before we get cut off, I'm just going to be the devil's advocate, because in our last episode, you said you can only make recommendations. Both Kenya and Tammy and any elephant you rescue are not your elephants. And, Scott, you explained about the ramp being built to help Tammy walk down a slope because of his swollen joints. So if everyone is on board and everyone wants to get Tammy out and everyone wants things done, how long is it going to take to build this training wall now? Because then, I mean, you know, the Vogons don't have to stamp off the permits. They just have to say, yes, we'll do the training wall. Bang, bang, bang, and then, you know, we build it. So are we going to discuss the training wall for the next six months? I'm exaggerating.
- [25:42]
Scott
Oh, and Mendoza might be exaggerating, though. So that's the thing. We never know. Like, sometimes things happen, like, right away, and we're actually shocked that, like, in a week, what we talked about was done. And sometimes we're still fighting to get things done four months later. I mean, it's impossible to know. And that's part of the frustration. Not for just people who want, you know, people from the outside who want him sent to sanctuary, but for all of us on the inside that are working, even some people at the facility who are trying to get this pushed through, all of the many bureaucratic steps and approvals that it has to go through. But, yeah, there's no way to know. And that's a big part of the problem.
- [26:24]
That goes back to Kat saying, if we can both go there or if we can have somebody there, they can help. Stay on top of that. You know, when we have a physical presence there, helping out. Their motivation changes because they see that direct in the moment, in their face, side by side, working with them to try to help, and it makes things happen, you know, and then with the skills that we have and what we've learned from sanctuary life, we can jump in and help with that construction, too. We can help do some of that, you know, expedite all of it.
- [26:58]
Okay, I'm not going to help with construction, but I will help with Tammy. That's not true. I can actually do things that way, but, I mean, there is so much testosterone in that place. I think. I think I'm fine just working with elephants.
- [27:16]
That works.
- [27:17]
Kat
Okay.
- [27:17]
Scott
That's that wonderful balance. And so, guys, I mean, lots. A lot of really, you know, heavy with Tammy, but there's a lot of really things, good things that are coming forward. There's a lot of alignment still here in Buenos Aires. The changes is really palpable and it's just beautiful to see the. The unity that everybody has right now.
- [27:36]
Yeah, the team's been great. Everybody's, you know, even with stuff they didn't understand initially, like we mentioned the chain, everybody is really solid with all of that and has been really open once they saw that it wasn't the end of the world and that she wasn't super upset and that they were carrying more of that burden than she was. But that whole picture looks great. And once she gets here, what we're probably going to need to be to do is to raise funds to pay for the construction in Mendoza, because the fastest way to get it done is to offer to pay for it. It's not going to be huge construction, but if anybody's worked with anything, government, you know, you have to get bids and you have. It's just a whole process to get money to go anywhere. So when we offer to pay for things, it skips like 30 steps. So what we'll probably have to do is do fundraising for two caregivers. Those caregivers are going to need flights, places to stay, food, budget. We'll have to do some construction, the training wall and hopefully the heater is done and we don't have to deal with that. But we are also probably going to build another crate for Tammy. He can fit into the one we have now, but because he has so much concern with bending down, we don't want him to be hesitant because he thinks he's going to have to bend down to get into it. So instead of the design that we have on the other ones, which are designed with not flat tops so that they can fit into planes. Airplanes. We'll do a slightly different design and have it be a little bit bigger this way. Hopefully he doesn't have any sort of concern with getting in to that crate. But by the way, we have to figure out where to put a crate to get him into. I mean, literally, they're gonna probably have to excavate an entire hillside and blow a hole in the wall to put a crate anywhere. So I know everybody would like this to just happen, but there is a lot to it.
- [29:52]
Kat
Can't we just walk him out of his enclosure along the road into Kenya's. Into Kenya space.
- [30:00]
Scott
The only way out of the enclosure is through solid concrete beams that are about 75 centimeters by 75 centimeters square and their height is about 2 meters 70. So he has stuck. He's about 320. So he has to duck a lot to get underneath.
- [30:18]
So we can't even get him out.
- [30:19]
So even if we could walk him.
- [30:21]
Kat
My, my idea is not very good, are they?
- [30:23]
Scott
No. We would have to get like a crane to physically lift his body out of the hole in the ground and put him somewhere else. So.
- [30:31]
Kat
Oh my gosh.
- [30:32]
Scott
We are trying, but I think this is the first time where I feel like there's actually. I am scared to say it out loud. Forward momentum that is being honored. As far as trying to get him out. I think they're finally starting to understand that he. If people want him to actually make it out of the eco park while he is still alive. Everybody can't continue to function in the same way they have been over the past years. It's just not going to happen.
- [31:08]
Kat
Well, that's a. That's a. Yeah, that's a statement to end the podcast.
- [31:12]
Scott
I didn't mean for it to be depressing. It is supposed to be. Well, no.
- [31:16]
Kat
Yeah, it is.
- [31:17]
Scott
No, no, no.
- [31:18]
Kat
Yeah. I mean, it's a firm statement. Yeah, it's a firm statement. You know, get your act together because time is of essence. Know.
- [31:24]
Scott
Yeah. I think he's like 54. I mean, he's not even close to being young at this point and he's not in great health. And I think people just assume things will happen and it's like, no, you actually have to. You'll make some.
- [31:39]
Kat
But kick some butt to make it happen. Okay. Just an up front Scott was a little bit. The connection wasn't too, too good. So let's hope that the recording was okay. If not, we'll have to ad lib in the recording.
- [31:56]
Scott
Okay, well, I'll just make stuff up for him.
- [32:00]
Kat
Okay, well, thanks for your time, Scott. Very busy time for you at the moment in Argentina, but also of course for you, Cat. You're at home looking after the elephant. So thank, thank you as always for your time and thank you for your honesty and thank you for all the updates. And yeah, fingers crossed that things are moving forward very fast. And for Tammy, Kenya and Pupi obviously just need to have the crates doors closed, but Tammy, yeah, he needs a little bit more help. So, yeah, thanks for all that.
- [32:29]
Scott
Thank you, Nadia. Always a pleasure.
- [32:30]
Kat
Okay, bye.
- [32:32]
Scott
Bye. Bye.
- [32:34]
Nadia Mari
That's all that we have time for this week. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and if you did, don't forget to subscribe. Hit the notification bell so you never miss an episode. Another great zero cost way to support the the podcast is by leaving a five star rating or a glowing review as this helps other people discover the podcast. Thank you so much for your support and until we meet up for our next episode, take care.