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- [00:17]
A
Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast sanctions, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mari and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GSE's initial project, Elephant Sanctuary Brazil, where Asian and African elephants, lovingly referred to as the Girls, live their best lives. Hello everybody. Welcome back and thank you for tuning in again this week for a new episode of Global rumblings. It's been 12 years, 12 years since the founding of GSE. So today we will be talking about all the elephants at the sanctuary, hopefully if we have enough time, but also about what has happened in the last 12 years, both positively, but still what has to change for captive elephants all across the world. So let's head over to Brazil to say hi to Kat and Scott. Hi YouTube.
- [01:22]
B
Hey Nadia, how are you?
- [01:24]
C
Hey Nadia.
- [01:25]
A
I'm fine. I just tripped up several times over the intro. So congratulations. 12 years. On 29 August 2013, GSE was founded.
- [01:34]
B
Yeah, so that's the date that we were officially accepted as a non nonprofit organization in the United States. I didn't even know the date had passed as true to form for us where days and months go by and 12 years goes by and you don't even realize what has happened.
- [01:47]
C
Yeah, it's hard when you don't know what day of the week it is, nevertheless what month it is. And yeah, I'm not good with dates, so that's all on you.
- [01:54]
A
So talking of 12 years and I just held up, this is not a video podcast. I just held up my wonderful Sip Rumble Repeat podcast mug. And to celebrate I thought let's give away 12 podcast mugs. So send an email, you can join as well. Send an email to podcastlobalelephants.org and just write I'd love a mug. And if you are one of the first 12 email entries then will send you a mug. So send that to podcastlobalelephants.org and the mug has got two colors, sip rumble Repeat written on it and also the podcast logo. So fantastic.
- [02:33]
B
Lovely. And since this is prerecorded, I'm going to send the message now. So my name is at the first of the list.
- [02:40]
A
I'll put it into the show notes as well so you can check those later. So 12 years of founding GSEs. So for new listeners, we have over 60 episodes that you can binge on and find out how everything began right from the beginning. But looking back on 12 years, what is the most positive thing that has changed within these 12 years for captive elephants all over the world, not only in South America?
- [03:07]
B
Cricket. Cricket.
- [03:08]
C
No, I'm. I have the Jeopardy. Music playing in the background in my head, as I think.
- [03:14]
B
Yeah. For anybody who thinks that we have pre discussed topics, clearly we don't. We kind of jump on a call saying, what are we going to talk about? And we say, let's do this and this is where we are. So, you know, this is kind of, you know, not a premeditated answer. You said not just in South America, but I think for me, the highlight over the last 12 years and illuminated by what has just happened here in South America is the decisions that were made in South America, in Argentina should say specific Argentina to say no more elephants in captivity and let's make that change happen. Now. Many facilities are saying once our elephants die, we will no longer have any more. That's not enough, really. You know, it doesn't help those that are still in those compactive faces that you are acknowledging are not suitable. So make the change now. And that's what Argentina did. They said, let's do it now, let's make it happen. And I think for me, that is truly a global highlight. Yes, it is in our face. Yes, we are intimately involved with it. But I think it should serve as an inspiration globally for the change that.
- [04:20]
C
Can happen, especially since there are still so many negative things going on with captive elephants around the world. You still have performing elephants in so many countries, which is so archaic and ridiculous. You have US Siouxs that are importing wild African elephants under the guise of rescuing them, when all the evidence points otherwise to the fact that they're just buying elephants. Because African elephants in captivity don't breed well. Asians for some reason do better, probably because of the high energy level of Africans and how easily they are stressed. But, you know, there wasn't a lot of successful captive African elephant breeding. But you know, elephants, when taken from the wild, they breed really well for a couple of decades. So it worked once when they brought them into the San Diego Zoo, however many years ago, and it worked so well, they did it again and stocked up three different zoos who. One of them just had four calves. So, you know, the US certainly isn't taking any giant steps forward. They have at least admitted that space makes a difference, which was one of the things they always denied initially with sanctuaries, that space doesn't matter. You give them space, they don't use it. It doesn't make a difference. Because of course, the only places that offered space, any sort of space were sanctuaries. But now you have zoos expanding their habitats and bragging about the enormous size of them, even though they're like five acres. So there is some sort of acknowledgment now that space does actually matter. But I mean, Nadia, as you were saying before we talked about, and you can fill in the blanks on this, apparently Japan now thinks that they should be breeding elephants.
- [06:08]
A
Yes, there's Ishihara Elephant Kingdom, which is actually an amusement facility, has the largest amount of elephants. It's not a zoo, it's sort of a safari amusement park where you can visit shows and the elephants can play football and paint and all these sort of things. Because it is becoming increasingly difficult to get elephants to Japan, Thailand is not being very supportive, thank God. And. But Myanmar and Laos is. So yeah, watch this space on that development. Very, very. So that's very sad. So that's one of the sad and the negative developments.
- [06:45]
C
Yeah. But I think all of those places going backwards just highlights what a huge step forward it is for places here that are, as Scott said, not breeding elephants, not getting more elephants, not doing anything of that sort. But then also like the two zoos in Argentina that shifted to eco park models, ensuring their elephants had a better life, not just waiting for them to pass away. And then of course, with Buenos Aires, the thousands of animals that they ship to other sanctuaries and all the money and effort that they put into that over the years, I mean, it's unheard of. And we talked to somebody yesterday about how amazing of a feat that is, including people taking ownership of being part of the issue. We kind of went down memory lane a little bit with talking about palooza and her passing before she had a chance to get to sanctuary. And how many people reached out and apologized for their role in how her life went. You know, she did not have a nice end of life. She was extremely underweight. She actually self mutilated. She had terrible feet. I mean, she was a disaster. And you know, people realized after she passed that the only reason that she ended up in that situation was a situation that they were part of. You know, they paid for tickets to go to the zoo and that's why the zoo had an elephant. So it was a realization that we haven't had a lot of people verbalize outside of South America, at least not directly. To me, no.
- [08:43]
B
But I think that is part of the shift. If you're looking at the 12 year positive shift, I think that is definitely one of those where, you know, in the past, you know, we've been doing this for years, you know, going back to 1995, where they started the sanctuary in Tennessee. And what transpired with that social context and the social awareness, I think is pretty substantial. And, you know, where it used to be, pointing the finger at others that need to promote change. I think that you see more inclusion in the public saying we can do better, you know, and that's, you know, the government in Argentina saying we can do better and, you know, and the citizens of Argentina supporting it. And if you look at the social outcry in so many cities, you know, with Woodland park elephants up in Seattle, you know, the majority of, you know, the voters said, you know, supported sending them to sanctuary. You know, it is up to us to make that decision. It's not just up to somebody else. It's up to us to take that positive stance. It's not just pointing the finger and saying somebody else has to do better, we have to do better. And I think that is a little bit of a shift that's happening with the, the social dialogue around captive elephants. You know, the other thing that's happened in 12 years is, you know, not only was Elephant Sanctuary Brazil founded, but in the last 12 years you had Elephant Haven that was founded and in the last 12 years and you have Pangea that is working closer to open up their doors. So three new global sanctuaries that are, you know, starting to make a difference, you know, and, you know, continuing that dialogue and continue to create not only the positive change, the opportunity for positive change. Without sanctuary development, all that social discussion doesn't matter. You know, we talked about it before the legislation in here in Brazil. That didn't matter without a positive solution. Same in Europe right now, even if there is a zoo or a circus or whoever that wants to send the elephants to sanctuary, Elephant Haven doesn't have a lot of space. You know, they can't do it on their own. There's 500 elephants in Europe. They need more opportunity. So this is a huge positive that we're creating more international options for elephants to find sanctuary.
- [10:46]
C
And I think also when you have sanctuaries in those countries or on those continents, you educate more people to the fact that sanctuaries exist. There are so many people in South America that never realized there were elephant sanctuaries because it's just not something that's talked about, something that's here. So it's not something that's discussed. And then once you introduce the fact that there is an elephant sanctuary, of course the next step is them wanting to understand why, you know, why do you need an elephant sanctuary? And that leads to the discussion of what captivity really is like and, you know, what's taken away from them and what sanctuary can give back. And it ends up being, you know, a significant level of education just by existing, you know, because so many people don't realize there is such a thing as an elephant sanctuary.
- [11:34]
A
I'd like to go back to what you just said, Scott. I found that very interesting. You said that many zoos say, well, when our elephant dies, we won't get another one. And you said Argentina said, well, we're not going to wait until our two last elephants die, we're going to send them to you. Because in Japan, obviously there is not a sanctuary. So we are of course at elephants in Japan happy when an elephant says, okay, when this elephant passes, we won't get another one because at the moment there is no elephant sanctuary. So you just mentioned elephant haven in France, Pangea in Portugal. So is the fact that more sanctuaries are available. You just said it is promoting the news that sanctuaries is what elephants need. But do we need more sanctuary so that zoos that say we could possibly send our elephants somewhere that they might be more, I don't know, more prone to do so, or do you think the zoos are still very, very tight knit and say, no, no, no, we don't want to send them to sanctuaries?
- [12:32]
B
I think if you don't have sanctuaries, they don't have the opportunity for even to have that discussion. Okay, you know, if, if you don't have a solution that, that. What about, does sanctuary life provide my elephant with more? That discussion can't even come to the table because you don't have that option without sending him to a another continent, which complicates things substantially. So, yes, I mean, you have to have solutions to have that discussion or to open that discussion. There's still going to be resistance. You know, we still have that here in Brazil. We still have it in various places in South America. You still have resistance to sanctuary? Definitely still have it in the United States. They still have it in some places in Europe. A lot of places in Europe there's going to be resistance to that type of change. However, there are going to be those that aren't resistant to change and say, yes, I would love to send my elephant, give them that opportunity. So, yes, more sanctuaries are needed. So you can have that. Yes, come to the table. And if you don't have sanctuaries that guess never going to happen, that life doesn't even exist.
- [13:30]
C
And sometimes sanctuaries just end up being, and I don't say this in a negative way towards the elephants, of course I love our grandmas. A stubborn grandma happens to be my favorite kind of elephant. But you do end up sanctuaries being a little bit of a dumping ground for zoos and circuses. In some places that have older elephants that they don't really want to take care of anymore. You know, the older they get, the more care they require. I mean, if you're actually taking care of them properly, which a lot of places aren't, the more expensive they get and the less they appeal to the public in general. You know, we've had zoos with the sanctuary in Tennessee give elephants away because they don't look good on an exhibit anymore. You know, that's a reality of a facility that exists for, for public viewing. So you do get zoos who will just send, you know, an old elephant that they don't want to care for anymore to a sanctuary. But for us, that's fine. I mean, fill us up with grandmas, that is not a problem. And I think in the US And I'm sure it may end up being the same in Europe now that they have a vaccine for EEHV and they will hopefully have less elephant calf deaths because they've already had a few elephants that have, that have become active with EEHV that have survived post vaccine, they're going to have a lot of elephants. Now you're talking about the elephant population. Even with all the births stabilized because the babies were only living for a limited amount of years. But now, if they actually live to be adults, your zoos are going to be way too overcrowded. They just don't have the space for all these elephants. So I suspect that they might become more open to sending elephants to sanctuaries once it's the older elephants that are no longer of breeding age and require a lot more care.
- [15:36]
B
One of the things that happened early on in sanctuary existence in the United States was the phrase, you don't want to become a dumping ground. And if I have a choice of becoming a dumping ground or these elephants dying where they are, I'll be a dumping ground. I'll take that. Not only does it create a better Life for those elephants in those last years. It also opens the door because it allows those elephants to show you what they're capable of as a 60 plus year old elephant, as a 55 plus year old elephant with a slew of health issues to come to the sanctuary and completely transform, even at that age and adapt and shift, show us what they're capable of, even if it is a dumping ground, even if they're only trying to make space so they can bring in a baby. Use that story, give that elephant in your life and then use that story to help show and help enlighten what happens in captivity and the negligence in captivity and what is possible when you change that paradigm of what captivity means.
- [16:37]
A
Do you think that sanctuaries, especially your sanctuary, has shown people more respect towards elephants? Because you are very special sanctuary, you do not have public, you're not open to the public, people can't visit you. Unlike other sanctuaries, say, like in Southeast Asia. So have you seen a positive development towards people wanting to have the more hands off approach? Or do you think that the fact that there are more sanctuaries in Southeast Asia where people can, you know, touch and bathe and feed an elephant, that this respect that elephants need is not. Hasn't developed enough in the last 12 years or safari trips in Africa or something like that as well?
- [17:19]
B
I think there has been a little bit of evolution there. But you know, if you're looking at the last 12 years of what has happened for our society's awareness of what elephants need, I think the negative impact of social influencers and just social media and social media and the. I want to do that too. I want my picture taken with an elephant, I want to bathe an elephant, I want to feed an elephant, I want to drink a beer near an elephant or whatever it is, I think that has done a complete disservice to building the respect. I think, yes, a certain percentage of the population has started to think about what these elephants need and that it's not about us, but so much about tourism, it's about us. It's what we want to do, what we want to feel good while we're on vacation. This is the only time I ever get to Thailand. I want to be able to see an elephant, you know, okay, so what if you want to see an elephant? What does that life mean? What does that choice mean for that life that you're negatively impacting. And we have a long way to go on that one.
- [18:21]
C
But I think the fact that there are any sanctuaries and there's just a very small handful. But any sanctuaries in Asia that don't allow any contact, that don't allow feeding, that don't allow selfies that have you going into, you know, the forest to go find elephants and, you know, sitting 100 yards away, 200 yards away and watching elephants from a distance, the fact that any of those exist in Asia is huge. I mean, because there were so many facilities that allowed rides for so long and shifted away from that to then the bathing and some of them shifted away from that to then just the feeding and the selfies. And I mean, there is definitely a positive shift that has happened there that is very slow. But again, it's, you know, their tourism and their culture was built upon that. So it is progress. But I agree that, you know, all these people taking photos on the back of an elephant and talking about, you know, but this place is a wonderful sanctuary. They rescued this elephant. Because the photos always have the same stupid story. I know, unfortunately, because I have to keep track of elephant news. And they all say the same thing. Oh, but it's this wonderful place. They saved this elephant from whatever. It's the same nonsense story over and over and over again. So then other people are always like, oh, it's a great place, It's a wonderful sanctuary. I want to go too, and sit on the back of an elephant in a bikini and take photos. And it's just, you know, social media definitely doesn't do animals a favor that way.
- [19:59]
B
But it's not just elephants, that's animals in general. You know, it goes back talked about it here because of wildlife rehabilitation. How many wildlife rehabilitation photos do you see where people are playing with whatever little animal it is, or the wildlife is playing with my dog or, you know, that all of that has a negative impact, compromise the negative impact on our understanding, but even further on what we're actually providing for those animals.
- [20:23]
C
Yeah, there are so many wildlife rehabbers that get so upset because people find a squirrel and they've seen whatever schmo on social media that has a pet squirrel that they quote, unquote, rescued as a baby and it's their best friend and it sleeps on their dog and, you know, it's such a wonderful life. So somebody finds a squirrel and they decide they want to take care of it too. And then they realize like a month later that he's not doing well, they send it to a rehabber and it dies, you know, within like 48 hours. Because by the time they realize it's sick, it is so sick. And rehabbers see that story play out over and over and over again. Raccoons, fox, possum, you know, baby birds. It's. Everybody just sees these people who, you know, have an animal that essentially they've stolen from the wild and make every excuse as to why they kept it, when if they had just sent it to a rehab facility, it could at least live out its life with others of its own species or be released. And people want that. They want that. That really cute squirrel that sits on their shoulder and grooms their hair. And it definitely has not done.
- [21:37]
B
I think you just said something that ties right back into elephants. Is every excuse in the world why? To justify that. And that's what's happening in captivity still. It's every excuse in the world why my elephant can't go to sanctuary. You know, we see it with Sandra, we see with all of them, you know, and we talked about it before here. We talked about it just, I think two weeks ago or in the last episode of the, you know, my elephant won't adapt. My elephant won't survive transport. My elephant won't know how to feed himself. My elephant will die of loneliness because he misses caregiving. We make excuses for continuing the negative behavior. We make excuses for not giving this wildlife a chance to be a wild animal again. You know, we've heard it before, everyone's heard it of, you know, the old belief of don't touch a wild animal because its mom will reject it. That doesn't happen. You know, mom is, you know, we put birds right back into nest here, and mom comes right back irrelevant of what we smell like, which smells like elephants and who knows what else you smell like. Not just a human smell, but they're going to protect their. Their. Their offspring. We're just talking to somebody yesterday about an owl that escaped the. I don't know what year that was. The zoo in Central Park Zoo, that.
- [22:50]
C
Was just a few years ago.
- [22:51]
B
Didn't know how to fly, didn't know how to hunt, didn't know how to take care of itself. He actually did really well. He learned his own path. And we just have to give them a chance, and we have to give elephants a chance, and we have to give a better life a chance for these animals. And stop making excuses for whether it be the selfie that you want or because you still want to be able to show your child an elephant in a zoo. You know, we have to stop making excuses. And I think in those next 12 years, next 10 years, whatever number of years, I think that's where the biggest message needs to come, is stop making excuses for what can't happen and start looking for reasons why it can happen.
- [23:27]
A
I was just going to say, what are the plans for the next 12 years? I've mentally noted down more sanctuaries, although I must say, the word dumping ground is a very negative, very horrible word. What are your lovely seven elephants doing? Your lovely grandmas?
- [23:46]
B
Not much right now. It is hot and sunny.
- [23:49]
C
Mara and Hana had a distracting party this morning, which happens.
- [23:54]
B
We were doing Hana's foot soaks. I mean, foot treatment and foot trimming in one of the treatment areas. And Mara was in yard one laying in the mud wallow, splashing the mud wallow, and then decided to run out of the mud wallow, trumpeting, to her greatest delight in her highest volume, which quickly distracted Hana from treatment, which means we had to open up the door for Hana to go play with Amara for half an hour. So I did not get the initial video because, true to Scott's incapability to hit the record button, I had the phone pointed at them but did not hit the record button. So.
- [24:35]
C
Oh, if that was the only, like.
- [24:37]
B
Yes, it's not the only time first.
- [24:38]
C
Or like 500th time.
- [24:40]
B
So in the next 12 years, I would like to learn how to use a phone record. But anyway, so that was actually really entertaining. The others are lazy. Lazy.
- [24:50]
C
Quiet pond time. We have a video that'll be up on social media media in the next couple of days of Gigi and Maya roughhousing in the pond together while Bambi just eats hay and watches from the shade of her lovely tree. She watches the kids beat each other up, which is great.
- [25:07]
B
A lot of quiet elephants during the day right now because it is hot. This is our hottest time of year, and so we have quiet elephants during the day and there's been a lot of partying at night. We were trying to do something with Kenya the last couple of days, and all day long she's like, no, I just lean my head against the fence, please. She'd rather sleep than to join us with what we want to try to do for her.
- [25:28]
A
Well, that's a lovely. That's a lovely closing note because you said sanctuaries often are then older elephants that zoos don't want because they're making room for baby elephants. Or maybe they have decided then to close down their elephant exhibit and give you their elephants. But listening to your stories of your elephants just. Yeah, just being elephants, being in the mud wallow club, mud knocking down some trees, eating, grazing, just. Yeah, just being elephants and showing the world, as you said, Scott, in the beginning, that captive elephants just get their instincts back and they just know what to do and they're living their best elephant life. So that is definitely just something wonderful that sanctuary has brought in the last 12 years. So mental note, next 12 years, more elephant sanctuaries, more education, less selfish humans wanting to see any type of wildlife, I don't know, in a cafe or in a zoo or in their own bathtub, whatever, so.
- [26:26]
B
And many more elephants enjoying the freedoms of sanctuary.
- [26:29]
A
Yes, definitely.
- [26:29]
B
As is certain to come. The other one, the social change requires a lot more work, but more elephants coming to sanctuary will be a certainty on the horizon for all these sanctuaries.
- [26:41]
A
No, you know, you're going to get your listeners all hyped up now. They say, when's the next elephant? When's the next elephant?
- [26:46]
B
One day. One day.
- [26:47]
C
It doesn't have to be our sanctuary.
- [26:49]
A
It just has to be another, any sanctuary. Okay, have a lovely rest of your afternoon. Thank you and take care until we meet up next time.
- [26:57]
B
Thank you, Nadia, once again. It's always a pleasure.
- [26:59]
A
Bye bye. That's all that we have time for this week. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and if you did, don't forget to subscribe. Hit the notification bell. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Another great zero cost way to support the podcast is by leaving a five star rating or a glowing review as this helps other people discover the podcast. Thank you so much for your support and until we meet up for our next episode, take care.