A (3:48)

So Kenya holding back like that, because you said in previous podcasts, you have said she's got a big energy and she's so excited and, you know, she does her trunk pops and her. Her tapping. And so it must have been to contain this excitement and to pick up Puppi where she is and respect that. That is amazing.

C (4:06)

Well, one of the easier parts that helped with that a little bit was they did it in the morning. And Kenya is not a morning gal. A girl after my own heart. She is sleepy, sleepy, sleepy in the morning. So that energy that she generally has doesn't come out until later in the day. She was the same way in Mendoza that in the morning, she is still in total nap mode, and she's nice and quiet and relaxed. So when they were initially put together, Pupi was the one who was more interested because Kenya was just doing her nappy, I'm sleepy kind of thing, as God had said. He even had to go and make sure she was awake so she didn't end up being surprised if she was napping, that at some point she was gonna turn around. And all of a sudden there was an elephant there.

B (4:55)

Yeah, her butt was. She was at the water trough. Her butt was in yard one. And Pupi had been going in and out of the chute in yard one, stall one, and then coming a little bit closer, then going back and just hanging out in the chute, which she doesn't normally do, but super chill, observing but not doing too much. And then because it was kind of quiet, I had to go make sure, Kenya, there's another elephant behind you. You know, the gate's open now. Did you see what's going on? And then she did a little trunk pop and came over. And then she started watching a little bit more. But again, our job is to not try to make that scenario happen. But we also don't want to create a negative scenario by being too complacent. So when we talk to the caregivers, somebody said, do you want to decorate it so they come closer and closer. It's like, no, this is not about trying to manipulate that. This is just creating that space for them to do what they want. But then a little while later, I brought food over for Kenya, because I had to say, kenya, wake up, girl. And I explained that to the new caregivers. Also, what we're trying to do, we see a potential risk, and we can prevent that risk by just saying, hey, can you wake up a little bit? Look this way. Which it took a while. She wasn't fully asleep.

A (6:08)

Sleep.

B (6:08)

But she was definitely not fully connected to the world.

C (6:11)

I love her for that. I think it would be good for people to explain a little bit why Pupi is being brave in this relationship. And it's not, you know, we're putting that on that.

B (6:21)

Take it, take it away.

C (6:23)

You spent more time with her in Buenos Aires.

B (6:25)

So many of, you know, we talked about it before, you know, and. And none of these things should be surprising based on what we know about the girls. You know, we. We share so much about their journey. We share, you know, about what they've been through. And sometimes when you take a step back and think about it on that, based on the history, it all makes sense. Like Kenya sleeping. You know, this isn't new. This was Kenya there. You know, we used to joke about it as, like, you know, when are we going to do treatment? Or when are we going to do crate training? Not until 3 o', clock, because she's not gonna do anything until 3 o' clock in the afternoon. And that was weather. Cold weather, hot weather. And every now and then she would surprise us. But it was typically, you know, and we guys know that from the recordings that we did from there.

C (7:07)

And their normal staff at Mendoza goes home at 2 in the afternoon. So, I mean, technically, she's only waking up after everybody has essentially left the zoo.

B (7:18)

So then with Pupi, also, we've talked about it with her relationship with Kuki. Kuki was the dominant One, you know, Kuki was the star. Kuki is one that grabbed everybody's attention and she is the one that controlled and dictated Poopy's life, basically, you know, and Pupi had to walk eggshells around her many times. Not because she was excessively, you know, dominant, but she was dominant and controlling her poopie. And Poupi was very watchful. And, you know, Poupi, as we talked about from here, she was not only. And here they are again. Can you hear them very loudly on your side?

A (7:52)

Yeah, I can. I can also hear the. The insects, the cicada, these really high pitched R. So, yeah, people, you know, Kat and Scott are in the middle of the jungle. So this noise is for free. You don't have to pay any expensive meditation music. Just. Yeah, just tune in to the jungle.

B (8:09)

Just tune in. And it's waiting on rain this afternoon. And the cicadas start singing more when there's rain coming. So hopefully, hopefully they're right. So with that, Pupi was with the same elephant for her whole life in captivity. So she went through a cycle after Kuki passed away of redefining herself and defining who she is and finding who she is. And then at sanctuary life that continued, you know, trying to figure out who she is not only as a sanctuary elephant, but as Poopy as an individual. And then also with a very exuberant Kenya arriving, you know, and not really sure what that energy meant. And Kenya has done a really good job over the fence of letting Pupi know that she can trust her and that she's going to listen.

C (8:54)

And aside from Kooky, I mean, Pupi and Kooky came to Buenos Aires when they were three years old and Mara was there. And they initially kept them all together. Mara was kind of a mother figure to them. They had a really very sweet relationship. And we've talked about African, Asian thing before with it doesn't work or it works until it doesn't. And then one night there was a fight between the three of them. And what we have been told is that Mara pushed Pupi into the moat. And they were actually concerned about being able to get Pupi out, so on and so forth, and they were able to get her out. And it was after that that they didn't keep the three of them together anymore. They would alternate with Mara being inside and them being out and vice versa. So Pupi hasn't, you know, she's had essentially two elephant relationships since being stolen from the wild, and both had negative sides to it. I Mean, the relationship between her and Kooky was a loving relationship, the healthiest love. Maybe not, you know, at times, I'm sure. But, you know, that is what happens in captivity when there is no ability to express yourself, where there is no. No ability to get away from the other elephant, even if it is just for five minutes. I mean, I think anybody can imagine if you were locked in a bathroom with the same person for 30 years, that at some point you are not going to get along. And it really is the equivalent of what we do to these elephants. So not to say anything bad about Kooky, it is. They are what captivity makes them. But just to lend to the fact that Pupi just hasn't had great experiences with other elephants, necessarily, and Kenya is going to be very different from her. And I think one of the best things Kenya is doing is trying to be really obvious about the fact that she's listening and she adjusts herself with whatever it is that Pupi's trying to communicate.

B (11:01)

Yeah, and Pupi taking the lead, you know, and Kenya's saying, poopy taking. You know, you drive the bus on this, you know, And I think it's also just, you know, exactly as we said. You know, at the end of the day, people said it's exactly what it needed to be. It was just perfect watching that dynamic unfold and how they're taking it slow and how they're analyzing and being there, but just honoring that process. You know, those friendships don't happen overnight. And just because you put two people together doesn't mean they're going to be best buds. You know, just because we two elephants together. And that's the problem with space. That's the problem with, you know, small number of elephants. You know, it's hard to. You don't know that they're going to get along, and you don't know that's who they want in their life. They may want a completely different personality.

C (11:46)

But I'll love everyone. I'll be the first one to say it. There are just people that I will meet that I just don't need in my life.

B (11:53)

And, you know, here we are, we do two very fractured elephants, as most are from captivity, going through a process of tremendous recovery. And again, nothing's being forced. It's their time. We are the ones that had the control over when we opened the gate, but we were watching that evolution, and over the last few weeks, it just like, no, this really feels like it's the time. And we saw a shift in the behavior of Both elephants, after they had been away from each other a little bit, whether it be treatment or while cleaning one of the yards, sometimes the yard, too, is isolated. The middle yard is isolated while it's being cleaned. And as soon as you open up the gates, either Kenya or Pupi then go to that divider gate right away, not necessarily to have touchy feely interactions between each other, but to go in close proximity. And we saw that behavior started to amplify. And that's part of indications like, okay, maybe they were really looking for that next step now. And that's why we took the chance and opened up the gate and saw what happened.

A (12:52)

Yeah. So fascinating. And sort of spontaneously, I have to think about what you just said, Kat, about looking up two people in the bathroom and expecting them to get. I mean, the injustice that we do towards these elephants. And then how respectful Kenya is now that she has this. Yes. These nuances that she can feel what Puppi is feeling. And as you said, reading her and letting her take the lead, that is just really incredible. And also, it highlights your work as well, that you give them time. So you don't feed them, to bring them together. You don't force it. No. You've opened the gates and obviously you're there to take care and make sure that nothing happens. Happens. But they are deciding after now. Yeah. Six weeks, is it nearly since Kenya's been there, that now is the time. So that is fantastic news. Very, very happy. And I look forward to seeing lots of videos. Just don't forget to press play. Scott.

B (13:49)

Well, be patient with me. I am technologically challenged, as you know. But also, you know, regarding videos, one of the caregivers from the Asian barn said, do you have videos? And we have little snippets, but also, we don't want to just be in that space just, you know, with a camera right away either, because that changes everything as well.

C (14:06)

Another part of it is people have seen in the past with Asian elephant introductions, it's elephants that we know, we have established relationships with. We go up and check on them and get a little silly. Sometimes what we don't want to do with Kenya is go over, get excited, get silly, and then essentially perpetuate that big energy that can sometimes be intimidating to poopy. So, you know, if we go over with the camera, like we do with a lot of the Asians, and go right up to her and, you know, are like, it's so amazing. She's gonna go over the top in, you know, two seconds. She's doing so well with controlling herself. If we encourage her to not. She's not going to.

B (14:49)

I did encourage her yesterday. I know, Just a little bit, because that's part of who she is, that big rumble, vocal girl. And, you know, and it was a little bit of, you guys are doing so good together. A little bit of reassurance for both of them. I'm so proud of being so brave, Poopy, Kenya being so great. And then, you know, part of it is watching where they were at the time and hearing the vocalizations that were happening and encouraging a little bit of that, you know, that expressiveness. And then, you know, Kenya was a little bit vocal, and Poupy was a little bit vocal. Kenya was a lot vocal, and Poopy was a little bit vocal. But then stepping back out of that space also, and just a little bit of research, checking in with them. You guys aren't alone on the journey still. You know, we're here. We're not the integral part, but we are here to support you guys.

C (15:30)

No, I think that was. That was all good yesterday. I do think there are times where Kenya does need that because she is being so good with, like, keeping herself grounded and not going off the rails. So I think having that every now and again, it's just not. It's not going to be the same as, I think, what people are used to when we do introductions with Asians, how we are much closer and much more engaging, especially a lot of times, because the elephants who have been here longer that we have, the established relationships do like to come to us and check in or even come to us and be excited and be like, do you see? She's so nice. She's my new best friend. You know, you have different levels of that with elephants that have been here longer. So just so people understand why, from the outside, this is going to look a little different than maybe they're used to with when we do Asian elephant introductions. Although they should already clearly know that there's a difference, because it's usually three or four days later and they're already in together. And that is not what happened with this.

B (16:39)

No. But let's go back to what we learned from Tennessee also. I mean, let's go way back. Way back. You know, we had established group of elephants that were built over time similar to what we had with the Asian girls. And then we had, you know, three African elephants arrive almost on top of each other, I think two weeks apart. They had no guidance. They didn't have an elephant leader who knew what sanctuary Was, you know, so they're experiencing all of this for the first time, not only what sanctuary is, but who they are and what that journey is like and develop a new friendship. Where the way the Asian group here started was similar to in Tennessee, where you started with two elephants, you know, that had a history together, had a journey, and then you add one, and that journey continues. And there's an evolution. And most of the people that are joining us now have seen what happens after. You have the foundation of what some of the elephants know as sanctuary. They have that familiarity and knowledge of what sanctuary is. And we don't have that with these two Africans right now. And had the same thing. And not just African, Asian in Tennessee. Also, way back when, when we had eight new elephants arrive at the same time from circus and they, you know, if we had eight new elephants arrive into the existing group, that would have been one thing, because that existing group already had sanctuary knowledge. But you have them arrive into a group where nobody has that sanctuary knowledge. It's different, you know, and so it's a different journey than what we had with Asian elephants, you know, but let's go back to, you know, Hana and Hannah's introduction to Mayangita, you know, different than what it was with subsequent elephants from there also, you know, I think.

C (18:16)

It'S similar to what they have seen in the wild with transplanting wild elephants into different areas, that when they've done younger groups of elephants that don't have anybody to lead them, you know, it's different. We're talking about age, but same thing as far as looking at somebody within a second established layer of understanding and knowledge and being able to guide. And when they put groups of wild elephants without any older elephants and all younger elephants, they've actually had issues with rogue elephants and elephants killing rhinoceros and all these things happening. And then as soon as they introduced two older males to this huge herd that they had introduced there, everything shifted. And it. Their take on it was just that you are bringing this older energy, this older knowledge, this level of experience that just wasn't there with the group beforehand and how much that shifts everything.

B (19:13)

A lot going on. You know, there's a lot of layers to it. There's a lot of elements. And I think, you know, as we're working with new caregivers and even our caregivers that have been here a while, who haven't been introductions, that's part of our job here, which is actually exhausting. Sometimes it's the layers. It's teaching the layers and getting to think about the layers and not just that one little element we're looking at now. What is behind that element? What is behind that behavior? What is behind, you know.

A (19:40)

The tip of the iceberg, huh?

B (19:41)

Absolutely. And I think in general, we're all looking at the tip of the iceberg as we're trying to help these elephants because we can't understand what that trauma is that's hiding below the. Below the surface.

A (19:55)

So before we started our call and pressed record, I was talking about lovely autumn here in Germany. But we can't hide the fact that the year is fast approaching its end. We're in the last quarter of the year, and I remember seeing Halloween decorations in July and thinking, what the bleep? It's only July. And now I'm thinking, what the bleep? It's nearly October and Halloween will be here soon. So this podcast airs on the 14th of October, so only two and a half weeks after that to Halloween. So, Kat, are you planning a Halloween fundraiser this year?

C (20:30)

Well, friends of GSE is holding the fundraiser. GSE isn't the ones who are doing the fundraiser. Friends of gse, they usually do a Halloween fundraiser, and this year they actually are keeping it very similar to last year. Last year was for ladies foot care, and this year they're actually going to do for Kenya's foot care. Unfortunately, as we've talked about, Kenya's feet are pretty terrible. It's not even lady at least just had the fronts. Kenya's fronts and backs are both bad. We started with trying to get her more comfortable, I would say more comfortable with foot presents, but she's great with foot presents. The issue comes in because she's really sensitive and now her feet hurt and she doesn't want to be as good with foot presents. But we're working on foot soaks and all of these other things to try to help her. Once the rainy season comes, it'll allow us to be able to do more trimming and more work. But the care for her feet is going to be expensive. It will be on the level of what ladies foot care cost, which ladies care in general was, I think, six times as much as every other elephant we had. And it was just because of her feet. We use a lot of very specialized sprays and topicals. We have a compound pharmacy that we work with that works with nanoparticles to get better absorption deeper into the feet. Because a big issue is actual penetration to where the issue is, because it's generally really deep in the foot. And we are Assuming she probably has osteomyelitis, although we haven't done X rays to definitively diagnose it at this point. So again, she's on non steroidal anti inflammatories, she's on low level pain meds, she's going to be getting foot soaks, she's going to be getting multiple topicals on her feet on a daily basis and it gets expensive.

B (22:20)

I think we're going to need to do a fundraising for either coffee or urban mate tambe also because, you know, we need her to wake up before 3 o' clock or 4 o' clock so we can moisture their feet. We definitely have a scenario where, you know, in the morning say, hey Kenya, want to come over? Say, sure, let's go to sleep. It's like, no, I need to do a few. No, let's take a nap. So we're gonna need to have something as part of her diet to stimulate her a little bit more in the morning to get her out of bed.

A (22:49)

I was checking some of the social media holidays and I had to think of 1/1 of October's World Coffee Day. So that's one for you as well, Scott. And also you can. So maybe, yeah, maybe you can put some coffee beans in with Kenya. So I was actually checking up some figures because people might think, oh, you know, Halloween. And you're talking about how much ladies foot get caught. And obviously Kenya, if you say all four feet were, are affected. How much do you think Americans spent last year for Halloween? For, for candy, for sweets, for merchandise, for costumes? Give me, give me a figure. What do you think?

C (23:23)

Oh my God, millions. I love Halloween, so I am not going to judge. It is my favorite holiday.

A (23:31)

Scott.

B (23:32)

Oh, I have no idea. But it's going to be way up there.

A (23:35)

Yeah. US$11.6 billion. So we are very humble here at our podcast. I just want 1%, which is 160. I think Canada was 2.1 billion and Europe, including the UK 2.8 billion. I mean billion, but 11.6 billion in the US so three candies for humans and one candy or the equivalent of Kenya. So you were saying ladies two feet were affected, but you're saying Kenya's four feet are affected. So do we have to worry?

C (24:07)

We always have to worry. Unfortunately, even when you don't see something significant on the outside, it does not mean there is not a tragedy going on on the inside, unfortunately.

B (24:18)

And the feet are in many cases the least of the worries. You know, what we know is, and it is the nature of captivity and the chronic inherent degradation of health. You know, they are not well, and you can't see it from the outside. You know, we talked about it with Sandro. You know, they have this campaign to release Sandro and her veterinarians. And veterinarians are saying, no, he looks good. Yes. If you look at some elements of him, his feet don't look good, his joints don't look good. The way he walks doesn't look good. But is he ultra frail? No. That only happens a week before he dies. But what's happening on the inside, you can't see. You have no idea what's going on. And we've seen it with multiple necropsies where the pathologists are shocked to see the degradation that has happened inside these bodies. And they will say, this elephant was still eating. You'll say, yes, she was eating up until the hour before she passed away. And the pathologist said, that's not possible. This intestinal system was completely destroyed. How could this elephant have lived? How could they have still been eating? And that's what happens. It's hidden beneath, you know, psychologically, emotionally, physically. There's a lot that's going on there. So is there a reason to be worried with every single captive elephant? Yes, there's reason to be worried.

C (25:39)

So detour down Happy Boulevard. Here we go.

B (25:43)

Halloween to dying elephants. But that's the reality. No, I know.

C (25:48)

There's definitely concern with her feet. We'll know more when we can start trimming and see what's underneath those pads, what starts happening to the nails, so on and so forth. But, yeah, it's impossible to know at this point. And she's a big girl, which never helps. The elephants we've known that have done the best with really bad feet have all been little girls, including Lady. She is a petite little thing. Deli again, super tiny cutie. So she doesn't really have that going for her either. But we will do our best to take care of her and make her as comfortable as possible and do all we can for her feet. And I know have no doubt that her new spatial companion has brought a different level of joy to her life. So that, of course, always helps as well.

B (26:41)

Absolutely.

A (26:42)

Cat? Scott, you frozen? I can't hear you anymore. So, obviously rainy season is on the horizon. You have no Internet, so I will end the podcast without you. Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule and sharing the wonderful news about Puppy and Kenya, now sharing the same yards together with no fences between them. Oh, and before I forget, the podcast team is taking a short break. We'll be back at the beginning of December with new episodes but there is no need to miss us because we have plenty of past podcasts you can re listen to. In the meantime, I will put all the information about the Halloween fundraiser from Friends of Global Sanctuary for Elephants into the show notes and if you are able to support the sanctuary by donating. Thank you so much and until we meet up for our next recording, you too take care and all our listeners have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you. Bye. As we wrap up this week's episode, a reminder that you can stay up to date with current events at the sanctuary by following GSE on their various social media channels. You'll find all the details in the show notes or directly on their website global elephants.org thank you so much for your support and until we meet up for our next episode, take care.

B (28:07)

It.

A (28:32)

Sa.