← Global Rumblings Podcast
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- [00:18]
A
Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal fish physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mazzarati and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GEC's initial project, Elephant Sanctuary Brazil, where four Mizu and circus elephants from across South America live their best lives. Hello everyone. Welcome back and thank you for joining us again this week for a new episode of Global Rumblings. I am very excited today because we are kicking off our new topic series, Rethinking Elephants in which we are taking a step back from day to day events at the sanctuary, taking a broader look at elephants at their lives in the wild. But of course we will also zoom back into captive elephant environments, zoo sanctuaries, and talk about how these vastly differ from those of their wild counterparts. So let's head over to Brazil to say hi to Scott and Kat. Hi you two.
- [01:26]
B
Hey Nadia, how are you?
- [01:27]
C
Hi Nadia.
- [01:28]
A
I'm good, I'm good. Looking forward as always to talk elephants with you too. And you did say that there is a storm coming, so we'll try not to talk faster, but we won't dither around and talk about fantastic spring weather here in Germany. Whoops, I am. But let's dive straight into today's podcast. So the architecture of elephant societies. We all have these images in our heads. I certainly do. When I first saw elephants in a documentary and just saw these elephants wandering over the African savanna thinking, oh yeah, just a group of elephants having a good time. But they aren't just a group of elephants. There is actually a very intricate and structured setting to them. So maybe you can just give us a short overview of how elephants actually live in the wild.
- [02:16]
B
A short overview of how elephants live in the wild. In our pre conversation you said it's you're getting ready to herd fleas and I will try to do my best not to go on too many tangents here. So yeah, I mean, I think most of our listeners are pretty savvy, as you mentioned and you know, no, the fundamentals of elephant society, which is primarily matriarchal, you know, and you know, these terms are going to be used as the general concept of elephant society, but there are going to be some nuanced differences and age gaps that are a little bit different depending on where elephants Live, you know, African elephants versus Asian elephants in terms of, you know, age, demographic, etc. Herd size, you know that, you know, things do are different between those two, vastly different species. But in general elephants are, as you said, matriarchal. They are led by a dominant female. And that dominance is not necessarily physical dominance. And that's one thing that the first point segue to captivity that is often confused, that is often confused is the dominant individual in captivity. It's often looked at as the dominant individual is often deemed as the matriarch in captivity, but that's not truly a matriarch. You know, the matriarch in the wild world may be the most dominant, but that is the dominance in terms of a social hierarchy, not necessarily a physical hierarchy. They're not battling for physical position. They're looking for that natural born leader who can lead them, who can guide them, who can protect them. And that's not necessarily the strongest and toughest, that's going to be the wisest and that's not necessarily the eldest either because some are just natural born leaders and some just simply aren't. Same as we have with any species, any society, whether it be human, dogs, horses, whatever. So with that matriarchal herd, the natural born leader who can guide them, who can take care of them, the herd is structured with primarily females and young males. Older males will come and go throughout their their lives. There are often males that live on the outskirts in small groups that surround the females. Not necessarily migrating side by side or you know, in a close proximity, but interacting with periodically. And when males are reached maturity, about between say 12 and 15 years old, oftentimes they start leaving the herd or be moved out of the herd and live in a bachelor group for a while until they reach sexual maturity and then they either leave a semi solitary life or with small bachelor groups, small male groups as they wander around with a territory that can be up to five times greater than what the female home ranges. Fill in the blank, Scott.
- [04:59]
C
No, just herd structure. As far as African elephants, they tend to have much larger herds because of essentially where they live and their needs. During the dry season those herds fracture into smaller herds again for survival. And that's when you see elephants that aren't typically the quote unquote matriarch of the group, forming smaller groups with different matriarchs, but are very temporary and then they come back together. Asian herds are small in comparison. From what I've read, six, eight, you know, you don't get these giant herds of 60 elephants again a Reflection of where they live and their survival. And in Asia, a lot more has to do with humans and that environment and coexisting that way. And I think the only other thing really is the whole bachelor herd thing. You know, it was thought for a really long time that males were solitary and a lot of facilities that as an excuse to house male elephants by themselves essentially for a lifetime, which was quite horrific and is still done by some zoos. But it was found that instead they do have these bachelor groups. Three, four elephants come and go, but never generally that far. There's usually one older male and several slightly younger males. Again, they don't get labeled as a matriarch. Well, clearly they're male, so that term isn't going to really work. But just a general leader who kind of keeps the boys in line a little bit and kind of teaches them the ins and outs of being inappropriate male, you know, on the outskirts of a herd and minding their p's and q's a little bit.
- [06:48]
B
When you mentioned herd size, you know that there are many photos of groups of elephants in Asia that are, you know, the, you'll see 30s and 40s, but that's not that 30 and 40 wandering all the time together. And it's the same thing what you see in various regions in Africa where you may see a, you know, a herd of 15 or 20 or 30, but. But there are times of year that you'll get 200, 300 or more. I know in Embesseli that was the case and I actually went there one time and it was the end of the rain season, which would have been a time where you normally see the hundred plus groups of elephants. And I think the largest group we saw was 10. And that was because it had a very severe drought at the time. They had also lost their matriarch, Echo. She was the matriarch for many elephants and a very influential matriarch for many, many years. And would that also create a fracturing of the herds as they're trying to figure out their new path forward without that queen bee that had been there forever.
- [07:51]
A
That's interesting because I read about echo. I was doing a little bit of research and what I found very interesting ties back to what you just said about memory as well, that it's not necessarily the older one, but it does seem that if the matriarch is older, she has got more experience. So for instance, there was a paper that I just read the abstract on about listening to. Well, they played lion roars, especially male lion roars. To a group of elephants. And it was then especially the older matriarch or one with more experience realizing that the danger that actually came especially for male lions because they can actually bring down a young elephant. And younger matriarchs didn't respond quite as frightened, I'd say, because they just didn't have the experience. So looping this then back to elephants captivity, so we all know that elephants live in groups of females. It's grandmothers, mothers, daughters, aunts, sisters, with, as you said, for Africans at least the males as well. So what does this actually then mean? I spontaneously have to think of all the 18 plus solitary elephants in Japan, but also Lucy in, in Canada. So what does this actually mean then, us taking elephants out of the wild or just keeping them in ones or twos? In zoos, obviously sanctuaries, it's a little bit different. They can form bonds and form groups, but zoos really just under this aspect of how elephants live in the wild, they just cannot offer them what they need, full stop.
- [09:22]
B
I think that let's look at that question as a captivity question, not as a zoo versus sanctuary question, because there are still sanctuaries that don't have large herd groups. Sanctuaries don't have large groups. Many zoos don't have large groups. But then you do have some zoos that actually have more herd, more members in a group than you have in some sanctuaries. So I want to look at it more as captivity versus zoo, you know, versus, you know, compared to zoo and sanctuary separately. So captivity, what happens is we have these lower numbers. You don't have natural herd dynamics. Many times you have elephants that are coming and going in from the zoo world or elephants that are coming in from various places. In sanctuary world, you're not talking about multiple generations that have all lived up, understanding and knowing each other. You have individuals in both, in all aspects of captivity that are coming from very different worlds, very different ways of being raised. Some were raised in small groups, some were raised in small groups that were completely dysfunctional. Some may have been raised or grew up in a space that actually had more nurturing capacity depending on the compatibility of individuals. And then you have others that have never seen an elephant in 40 years. So when you're doing a comparison of wild till captivity, it's a completely foreign world. Everything is wrong, everything is different.
- [10:44]
A
Picking up on that, what are the challenges then of bringing elephants together who, as you say, have not grown up together and maybe don't come together until in their 30s or 40s, they're just not going to be good friends suddenly.
- [10:56]
B
Or maybe they will. You never know. Going back to our girls, look at Hana and Ramba. You know, they wanted to be right away. You know, it wasn't like a three week process for them to get to know each other, you know, and really find attraction and comfort with each other. But what it means for captivity and what it means for, you know, these zoo elephants that travel back and forth to different breeding programs or because of spatial constraints or for elephants coming into a sanctuary is you have to accept that there is going to be a huge adjustment and sometimes it's going to be that brilliant, perfect world that we want when they come to sanctuary and they all get along and other times they're going to need more space or need something different. A lot of times for these elephants going back to sanctuary and what we see is a very, a long learning curve of what it means to communicate, what it means to be, to share, what it means to understand, what it means to, to be empath, empathetic, what it means to receive empathy. You know, often said, we know what it means to be nurtured and what it means to nurture. You know, they never had these opportunities sometimes, you know, so it's not just, you know, you want to be my friend. There's a lot of elements to what it means to be a friend. And you're talking about an elephanthood again, who've been alone for 40 years. What is their communication model? How do, how does that individual communicate with others? You know, are they, you know, more passive or are they most, are they a little more extroverted?
- [12:28]
C
You know, you can use the comparison that people, a phrasing that people use now. You know, what is your love language? You know, for some people it's touch, for other people it's reassurance. For some people it's gifts for whatever reason. But it's the same. Like if you need something to compare it to to actually make it more tangible, it is very similar to that. You know, everybody has something that resonates with them, a way of communicating that doesn't, a way they need to be addressed, a way that they like to talk to and deal with other individuals. And it's going to be very different for all of these elephants. And they come in not knowing each other and not necessarily being familiar with somebody who needs reassurance and needs constant companionship versus somebody who's more aloof and is more comfortable going off on their own. So it's all as it is for humans. You know, it is this learning curve of figuring out an appropriate way to communicate and live with somebody that has their own 40 years behind them and is used to existing a certain way and figuring out how to make that work together.
- [13:49]
B
And then let's tie that back into matriarch, who is the matriarch from a world that has everyone's lived individually, you know, or had lived in one or two or Mara lived with two African elephants, you know, or Maya, who lived only with Gita but on chains for 40 years, you know, how do you develop matriarchal tendencies? How do you know that wisdom, that knowledge, that information to protect the others when you've never been in that environment. Sure.
- [14:15]
C
And you've never had that level of nurturing given to you, so you don't even know what that's like, nevertheless, how to give that to someone else.
- [14:24]
B
And then that's when you go back to who is that natural born leader? What is the natural tendency? You know, and here with Hannah, I mean, Hannah has a very nurturing, soothing, comforting side to her, but that doesn't make her the matriarch either. She is the one that, you know, others have leaned on, but she's not necessarily the matriarch.
- [14:41]
C
No, I think she. She is great for new elephants. She is great at bringing comfort. We've talked about it before when another elephant is struggling. Like when Bambi, when Mar decided that she didn't want to be friends with Bambi the first time, you know, Hana would stand there with Bambi head to head, not aggressive at all, very passive, very quiet, not doing anything for 40 minutes. And then Bambi would be much more respectful after that time and after multiple times of that, she seemed to understand more that she had to read the room and change herself a little bit. For Mara, that being, you know, that bouncy puppy dog energy all the time, even though it's great and happy and lovely, Mara wasn't down with it. It was just too much for her. So she learned to shift her behavior for Mara because she wanted to be friends with Mara. But that only came after just having hanging out with Hana and essentially communicating in whatever way they were communicating, whatever Hana need to share. And we saw that with Gigi. Hana had done that with her. I mean, we've seen her do it multiple times. And she seems to have a natural tendency after the issue she had with Maya and Geeta the first time she tried to squeeze herself into their friendship, you know, she seemed to have this realization that if she. She shifts herself to what somebody Else needs how beneficial that is. But she doesn't seem to have any desire to be any sort of leader.
- [16:08]
A
So talking of Gigi, she's actually your youngest elephant. She had her mom, Pocha. So what does it actually mean for an elephant to have a calf in an environment like in the Mendoza, where there was only one elephant, there was only pocha, she gave birth, and she was on her own. So she didn't have the support, support of the group of the aunts, of the sisters, or generally zoos, which maybe have a few more elephants. I don't know what the average is, but let's say an average of five elephants or four elephants. But even in that group, a female giving birth to a calf and not having the support all the time like nature intended. What does that mean? This life versus the wildlife versus captivity?
- [16:51]
B
I think let's go back to, you know, what this means for captivity in general. And it's just another layer of compromise. It's another way where they have had to adapt and had to make things work in a way that nature did not intend.
- [17:06]
C
I mean, we've said many times before, we have no idea, one, how Gijamena ended up being so well adjusted. But two, how Pocha possibly raised such a young calf in an environment where there was zero stimulation? I mean, you're not even talking about, like, a bad zoo exhibit. You're talking about not even being able to see anything in front of them but concrete. And I mean, it's just the extreme of depravity. And somehow Gigi's actually. I mean, she's definitely had to learn a lot of lessons over the first couple of years, but she's lovely. And mentally, you know, there wasn't a level of compromise that you might expect from how she grew up, but they
- [17:55]
B
just continue to endure. They continue to adapt, you know, and that's the thing when, you know, going back to bringing this deeper into the sanctuary zoo world, when zoos will say, you know, our elephant won't adapt to a natural environment. What are you talking about? They've been adapting to compromise for years, you know, and all we're trying to do is give them the space that they can actually return to a natural state of being with nurturing others with more of a family style, you know, relationship where they can learn from one another, where they can maybe even find a matriarch or maybe they can evolve into a matriarch, if that's your calling.
- [18:31]
C
And one of the nice things about sanctuary is the space and what that allows you Know, a big issue in smaller spaces is that the elephants have no way to escape each other. If there is conflict, if they don't like somebody, if they want to be in a separate group, there isn't really anywhere to go. I mean, they can walk, you know, 10 steps over to the other side of their enclosure, but that's very different from being able to go, you know, two miles away where you feel safe and you feel comfortable because, you know, you are far enough away to let your guard down. And it is. You know, people often ask about elephant conflict and what happens when they fight. And we've talked before about the object is to notice things before they happen. But what makes all of that easier is space, because they do learn that they can just walk away, and they do avoid, you know, certain types of confrontation that make them uncomfortable. So we do have, when it comes to socialization and putting unrelated members of a herd, a quote unquote herd, because they're not a true herd together. Space definitely gives a significant advantage that way.
- [19:49]
A
So with the setup that Viji, I always think of her like a little satellite. So she's either with Bambi and Maya or she with Hana and Mara. I think at the moment, she's more with Bambi and Maya. Is that then something that captivity creates? Because in the wild, there wouldn't be a young elephant jumping between. I call them herds. They're not really herds. Yeah.
- [20:13]
B
I mean, all of this is just an element of the environment they came from. You know, again, no social environment, no real upbringing, no nurturing, no mentorship. You know, I don't know that anybody's here had a mentor. I mean, again, Gita and Maya grew up together, but they're probably the closest ones, you know, for, you know, or poaching Gizamine as well. But, you know, no one else really lived with in a group of any structure at all.
- [20:37]
C
No. And Pochin Gijamina had a really unhealthy mother and daughter relationship, something you would never see in the wild. You know, we talked to Joyce Kuhl when she was here, and we talked about that relationship, and she's like, no, she. She's like, I have never, in all the decades that she's been doing that, she's never seen a daughter who would act that way towards their mother. Because, again, you go back to the herd dynamics, and it simply wouldn't be accepted. You know, it's not just the mom. It's all of the allo mothers, you know, that would also not be accepting of this behavior. And Shun the behavior or correct the behavior, and it curbs the behavior. But Pochi didn't have that. I. I mean, she didn't have anything. She literally had nothing to give her daughter except to let her lash out and misbehave and be aggressive towards her. And that was how Gijamina thought it was appropriate to relate to another elephant. And part of her biggest lesson was learning what really is appropriate when you are striving to be a member of the herd.
- [21:40]
B
If we take six different humans, you know, maybe one lived with somebody else, you know, maybe, you know, maybe somebody did live with their mom in a deprived state in a small space, you know, or. And maybe, you know, four of those others, you know, or three of those others lived in a solitary environment for 50 years. And you say, hey, we're going to put you guys together in your living room and see how you adapt. Are you going to see normal human social behavior? Little hints of it, but not immediately, you know, and they're going to learn and they're going to adapt, but you're going to see some frustrations that wouldn't normally, because you weren't, you were never taught what is proper social dynamic, what is known, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. One of the things that happened, and I think this goes back to the impact of what happens in captivity, and not only to the elephants, but also the people that manage elephants in captivity. And this is many, many, many years ago, I was at a conference and Joyce Poole had done a presentation, and she actually couldn't be there on site, but she did. She was talking about natural herd environments, major alco environments, et cetera. And she was on the phone answering some questions afterwards, and some people were pretty hostile towards her about aggression from adults to babies. And this was in the defense of human dominance for animals, because they say, oh, but they're. They are dominated physically. They are controlled physically. Their matriarchs are physically dominant. And she's like, no. You know, and somebody said, even with. I've seen mothers beating, hitting their, Their, their infants. And Joyce is like, that doesn't exist. That simply doesn't exist. They will corral each other. They will nurture each other. They will say, hey, let's move somewhere else, you know, but they won't physically reprimand each other in a negative reinforcement way, you know, and they. Once Joyce got off the phone call, many people in the room said, she has no idea what she's talking about. That's not what we see. Exactly. That's not what you see. In this deprived captive environment. It was in the conference, by the way, let's just make that clear. It was an Elephant Management Managers association conference. You know, for captive elephant management. You know, it is these small spaces create this negative behavior and those are the same people are saying our matriarch is our dominant individual, is our matriarch. No, she's a bully, that's not a matriarch, you know, and you know, but we have these complete wrong definitions. Even those people managing those elephants in small spaces are using wrong definitions and atypical social behavior.
- [24:24]
C
I mean, you have mother elephants in captivities that kill their calves. That doesn't happen in the wild. And it's been seen repeatedly throughout captivity. There are different theories as to why it happens. You know, whether it's lack of herd structure and anybody to tell them what to do, whether it's them not actually wanting to have a child in that environment. I mean, there's many, many theories, but the reality is still that that is something that happens only in captivity and is a result of what it does to these elephants.
- [24:58]
B
There's still a lot of confusion even within this captive element, minimum elephant management world where we have all the same information that the general public has, you know, about elephant society, but it's just ignored. The reality is completely ignored. And, you know, the truth is they are a highly complex social structure that has evolved over many, many years, that is multi generational and multi sub families that all come together and know each other, you know, and that doesn't exist at all in captivity. There isn't really any element of that social structure that would be considered normal in the vast majority of captive spaces, if not all captive spaces.
- [25:41]
A
So as a takeaway as we run out of time now then hearing all that and also what I've read up, it is quite astounding and amazing really that the elephants that I've been following along at your sanctuary are then able, despite all these difficulties, are able to form some kind of not necessary matriarchal structure, but at least some sort of friendship, sort of like system or aunts. Maybe Bambi and Maya are an auntie to Gigi by Lady. Then of course. But then we'll go off on a tangent and run out of time. She decided for whatever reason that she did not want to get involved at all. So yeah, very, very complex. So maybe next time we can talk more about not only the structure but also the bonds that make an elephant, as you taught said just now. Allomothering. I looked that up. Alo is Greek for other. So as the. I think it's an African proverb which says it takes a village to raise a child. That definitely can be said for elephants because they all all. Not only the mother raises the calf though, the whole herd raises the calf. So yes, very interesting. Fascinating. I don't think I've been very successful in herding fleas. We were all over the place. But I think, yeah, I actually looked
- [27:04]
B
at my notes, Nadia, and I think we did okay. We had a couple of key words those are there. And noted that Nadia is the one that wanted to go on a tangent of a solitary choice of lady. It wasn't us this time. Thank you, Nadia.
- [27:18]
C
And I did not respond. I said nothing.
- [27:23]
A
Okay, well, enjoy the. Enjoy your afternoon. You said something about the storm coming, so I hope it's not too wild, but maybe lots of rain for the girls and lots of mud parties and yeah, we'll catch up then.
- [27:34]
B
Thank you again. Always a pleasure.
- [27:37]
C
We'll talk to you, Nadia. Bye.
- [27:40]
A
That's all that we have time for this week. We hope you enjoy the podcast and if you did, don't forget to subscribe. Hit the notification bell so you never miss an episode. Another great zero cost way to support the podcast is by leaving a five star rating or a glowing review as this helps other people discover the podcast. Thank you so much for your support and until we meet up for our next episode, take care.