Episode 70: The Bonds That Shape An Elephant (Part 2)

Summary

Global Rumblings Podcast — Episode 70: The Bonds That Shape An Elephant (Part 2) Date: May 12, 2026
Host: Nadia Mari (A)
Guests: Kat Blais (B), Scott Blais (C), Co-founders of Global Sanctuary for Elephants

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep emotional bonds, capacity for grief, and the remarkable social intelligence of elephants, particularly those living in or rescued to sanctuaries. Building on the last episode’s discussion, Kat and Scott Blais share moving stories from their decades of work, highlighting how elephants change when given space, autonomy, and the opportunity to rebuild their lives after trauma. They also discuss how zoos are slowly adapting their practices to acknowledge elephants’ emotional needs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Human vs. Elephant Social Bonds (00:18–03:12)

• Host Nadia draws parallels between her human experience of family togetherness and elephants' multigenerational herds. She notes how difficult compromise can be for humans not used to living closely together, contrasting this with elephants' close communal living.
• Scott comments on the restrictive conditions of elephants in captivity, jokingly comparing cramped living: “They don’t have a big flat, you know, they’re all living in the bathroom together” (02:16).
• Kat and Scott highlight how the lack of space removes elephants' autonomy, making normal social dynamics and alone time impossible: “There’s no freedom to go for a walk… I’m going to go for a drive by myself… You don’t even have that” (02:59–03:05, C & B).

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2. The Impact of Captivity on Emotional Development (05:00–08:16)

• Scott shares how their early sanctuary work at The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee (TESS) was shaped by observing elephant behavior, particularly recovery from trauma and lack of normal social cues.
• Historically, elephants in zoos and circuses weren't given the chance to witness or process the death of companions—bodies were quickly removed (05:35, B).
• Scott recounts Sissy and Winky’s initial response to a companion’s death: “They saw Barbara laying… and they actually turned and ran away… and would not come down that whole corridor for several weeks” (06:47–07:56, C).
• Both elephants were emotionally shut down due to past trauma, highlighting how circumscribed and stifling conditions stunt normal emotional development (07:56, B).
• Over time and with further exposure, elephants began displaying more complex grieving behaviors, staying with a deceased friend for 24 hours and engaging in ritualistic acts (e.g., Sissy leaving her security tire on Tina’s grave) (08:22–09:42, C & B).

Notable Quote:
C: “She left her tire on the gravesite. What does that mean? I have no idea… but she left it there for several days.” (09:34–09:42)

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3. Recognizing and Respecting Grief in Elephants (10:12–15:30)

• Kat reflects on how sanctuaries pioneered allowing elephants space and time to grieve, practices that zoos now reluctantly begin to adopt: “It’s all the stuff they initially made fun of, that sanctuaries did… now we hear zoos saying it all the time” (06:20, B).
• Example from Brazil: “When Pocha passed, her daughter Gisa somehow knew exactly what to do. She called the other elephants, one by one, to come say goodbye” (12:33–13:33, C & B).
• Rumbling is analyzed not as a simple “happy noise” but a nuanced communication, vital in grief and social cohesion: "A rumble is something that's easily ignored, but they all understood exactly what it meant, what she needed" (13:33, B).
• The essential point: Even after years of deprivation, elephants reconnect to their social-emotional instincts rapidly once given the opportunity and security: “They don’t have to be taught. It is part of their soul.” (15:30, B)

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4. The Influence of Sanctuary Environment (15:30–17:35)

• Responding to Nadia, the Blaises note the rapid emotional growth seen in Brazil versus Tennessee, attributing it to deeper freedom and less human-imposed structure.
• Scott: “There’s more liberty to explore and to connect… so much more autonomy.” (16:02, C)
• Kat: “It is just them and nature from essentially 5 o'clock at night until 7 o'clock in the morning… there is a different freedom to that time and that space.” (16:28–17:35, B)

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5. Zoos, Public Pressure, and Changing Norms (17:35–21:58)

• Discussion on zoos now acknowledging elephants’ grief in part due to public and scientific pressure, but often in superficial, rule-bound ways.
• Scott: Societal views on animals are shifting, but this has yet to result in consistent, meaningful change for captive elephants: “There’s more awareness, but it’s not translating to positive action in many ways.” (18:36–23:12, C)
• Kat: “You can’t create a handbook that says, ‘Okay, an elephant passes away, you give their friend three hours...’ That doesn’t work for the elephants.” (19:41, B)

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6. Individual Elephants’ Experiences of Loss (21:58–26:42)

• Scott and Kat describe Maya and Gita’s 40-year friendship and the lack of opportunity to process Gita’s sudden death, a situation that would have been devastating in a zoo.
• Each elephant's response to death varies—it cannot be standardized or rushed: “Some really want to be there for a long time and others don’t seem to need that. Some seem to protect themselves and walk away.” (19:41, B)
• The experience of seeing a dead body for the first time is unsettling; in wild herds, elephants learn about mourning from a young age, which captive elephants rarely experience: “If they’re wild, they’re going to be raised in an environment where you’re going to have family members pass away starting from a very young age.” (25:15, C)

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7. Rituals, Learning, and Inter-species Compassion (26:42–28:52)

• Over time, elephants demonstrate evolving, sometimes ritualistic grieving: “It’s beautiful that they have that opportunity to understand something that is a substantial part of all of our lives… have it be something that is celebrated.” (26:44, C)
• Nadia shares a story of a street elephant in India walking around a kitten’s body, reflecting the depth of elephants’ empathy for other species (28:37, A).
• Scott: “They are clearly the better species… we have a lot that we can learn from them.” (28:40–28:52, C)
• Kat, humorously: “With our limited intelligence and limited emotional depth, I don’t believe we will ever be able to understand them… we’re never going to touch understanding everything about them.” (28:52, B)

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Memorable Quotes

• Scott Blais:
  • “The evolution of understanding, the evolution of their interconnected nature… we may not fully understand them, but we also shouldn’t be dismissing them.” (09:42)
  • “She left her tire on the gravesite. What does that mean? I have no idea… She left it there for several days.” (09:34–09:42)
  • “They are clearly the better species… we have a lot that we can learn from them of how to improve who we are and what we are.” (28:40–28:52)
• Kat Blais:
  • “They don’t have to be taught. It is part of their soul.” (15:30)
  • “You can’t create a handbook that says, ‘Okay, an elephant passes away, you give their friend three hours.’ That doesn’t work for the elephants.” (19:41)
  • “With our limited intelligence and limited emotional depth, I don’t believe we’ll ever be able to understand them and numerous other species that are on that same plane. We just, we’re never going to touch understanding everything about them.” (28:52)

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Timestamped Highlights

• 00:18 — Human/elephant social comparisons and the challenges of living in close quarters.
• 05:00–06:13 — Early experiences with grieving elephants at TES; shift in zoo practices.
• 06:47–09:42 — Sissy and Winky’s contrasting grieving behaviors across two deaths.
• 12:33–13:33 — Pocha’s death; her daughter’s leadership in coordinating communal grieving.
• 15:30 — The soul-deep nature of elephants' social/emotional instincts.
• 16:28–17:35 — Discussing sanctuary autonomy vs. captivity.
• 19:41 — The need for individualized approaches to elephant grief.
• 26:44 — The meaning and value of providing for elephants’ grieving in sanctuary space.
• 28:37–28:52 — Cross-species empathy and the humility required in human understanding.

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Tone & Takeaways

Intimate, reflective, sometimes wry, the discussion wrestles with what humans can—and must—learn from elephants' profound emotional lives. The episode stresses respect, patience, and humility: the need to honor individual differences in grieving and connection, and to provide the space for elephants to experience and express those emotions naturally.

Powerful Takeaway:

“We have so much to learn. They are clearly the better species… and we’re never going to touch understanding everything about them.”
—Scott and Kat Blais (28:40–28:52)

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal fish physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mazzarati and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GEC's initial project, Elephant Sanctuary Brazil, where four Mizuan circus elephants from across South America live their best lives. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Global Rumblings podcast. It's lovely to have you with us again this week as we continue to talk about the bonds that shape an elephant. And if you enjoyed the stories that Ca and Scott shared with us last week, then you're in for a treat because there's more of those coming up in today's podcast. So get comfortable and let's head over to Brazil to say hi to Kat and Scott. Hi, you two.

[B]

Hey, Nadia.

[C]

Hey, Nadia. How are you?

[A]

I'm good, I'm good. I was saying before we started recording that I had my mum staying with me and I had to think a lot about what we talked about in our last podcast about that in theory we can only think about and wonder what it must be like to live in such large multigenerational herds. And my mom said to me, oh, you'll be glad to see the back of me. And I said, no, it was lovely having you. We don't see each other that often, but then equally, I sort of realized, yeah, I, I am set in my ways. And I was quite, you know, selfish at sometimes thinking, oh, you know, I don't know, it's just difficult, I suppose, living on, you know, suddenly then being crammed together in a. We have got a big flat. But yeah, it is just so different. It's just not the type of life that we lead. But yeah, I think it's the same when I visit my mum and I'm invading her space. You're just not used to making. Well, I'm not used to making these compromise. It's difficult, but always good to learn, always growing forward.

[C]

I think it, you know, especially when we talk about elephant relationships in captivity and, you know, that compromised space, you know, a lot of times they come from extremely cramped spaces. They don't have a big flat, you know, they're all living in the bathroom together, you know, and it's, it is,

[B]

it sounds like a good time.

[C]

Yeah, it's interesting. But what they, what they go through and, and what they don't have, and then their freedom of choice when they do have space and how different it

[B]

becomes and how surprised keepers are when they don't get along. You know, it's like they're herd animals. They should get along. I don't know why we have conflict. And it's like, well, they're locked in a tiny little space together 24 hours a day, seven days a week for however many years. It gets tiring. They have nowhere to go.

[C]

No. And there's no freedom to go for a walk.

[B]

No.

[C]

I'm going to go. I'm going to go somewhere and read a book. I'm going to go. Do you know that doesn't really. You don't even have that.

[B]

I'm going to go for a drive by myself, listen to music. My happy little bubble, I think a

[A]

week after our recording, I was in a restaurant. I was watching a group of moms trying to herd their little kids everywhere. And it was in a shopping mall. So it was like a cafe in a shopping mall. And I had to think about, you know, our conversation as well and thought, well, yeah, somewhere in the garden would probably be much better. But, yeah, so the moms had big difficulties trying to hurt their little toddlers who were like running around this shopping mall having a great time. So, yeah, we do live a totally different lives. And I won't get too philosophical because I was like thinking, I think elephants definitely are the better humans. And I wonder if many of the traits that elephants do have are something that we possibly, I don't know, maybe one day when we're spiritually enlightened, might get back. But at the moment, including myself sometimes, no, I don't think I have these, have these traits. But. So I'm going to hurt myself now before I wander off. So we talked last week. You shared lots of beautiful stories. We talked about, about friendship, about grief and loss, and also about knowing. And you said that you were in our pre conversation that you would talk a little bit more about the elephants that you cared for at Tess. That's the elephant sanctuary in Tennessee. For listeners who are new. Scott co founded the elephant sanctuary in Tennessee several years ago, maybe, I don't know, 20 years ago. And you taught more than that.

[C]

Over 30, over 30 now.

[A]

Over 30, over 30. Well, today's actually our 70th episode. So at least, who knows, if we continue like this, we might all be sitting here at our 70th birthdays. I'll get there before you to do but, yes, you're going to tell us a little bit more about Barbara. You already shared a few stories and Bunny, Sissy, Winky, we were going to talk more about stories of knowing and knowledge and also of grief and loss and how you have experienced the elephants in your care, how they deal with grief and with loss.

[C]

Yeah. So looking back, I mean, so much of what we do now is defined on what we saw from the elephants. And at the sanctuary in Tennessee, they really are the ones that set the foundation for us to be aware of so much more of what's going on with them and, and seeing the change, the evolution that they went through with exposure to different things in life. You know, one of the simple scenarios of elephants either had not seen an elephant pass or maybe had not had a chance to process it because of the environment they lived in, or had not been given ample time to really understand.

[B]

Some zoos now give their elephants a little bit of time, but in the past, especially circus elephants, the elephant either died somewhere else or was taken away immediately. So there wasn't these elephants you're talking about, as we just mentioned, 30 years ago, most likely none of them had actually experienced a passing of somebody that they were close with like that.

[C]

And that's, you know, segue.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

Different direction, you know. Well, actually, the language that we see from Zeus has changed a lot. And we even see a lot of the, the, the decisions in zoos have changed.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

You know, that doesn't mean that it's fixing everything, but they are. We do see stories where they're giving elephants a chance to mourn.

[B]

And it's all the stuff that initially they made fun of, that sanctuaries did, and the language we used and the casual things like calling them girls and saying things like elephant time and blah, blah, blah. We hear Zeus saying it all the time now and doing things like he's talking about where they now give them time to be with the elephant that passed. Whether it's enough time, who knows. But that wasn't a thing.

[C]

So Citizen Winky had not been at the sanctuary for tremendously long before Barbara passed away. I don't remember what that time frame was, but there are two elephants that went through a lot of evolution in their recovery. They were two that they were most withdrawn many, many weeks to leave the barn. But their friendship, their evolution was pretty remarkable. But they came back into the barn just after Barbara had passed away and they saw Barbara laying on the, on in the, in the stall and they actually turned and ran away and they could not have run away any faster. And they would not actually come down that whole corridor for several weeks. They would come into the other end of the barn and eventually get to the stall where Barbara was going through the barn, but not come in the way that they arrived when Barbara was down a little bit shocking a little bit. You know, it was unexpected, clearly, for them, but also I don't know that they were in tune enough to the vibe of what's going on, what's going on with the other elephants to be able to perceive that a change had happened with Barbara. That I think is an evolution that we see with elephants over time.

[B]

And they were both very emotionally stunted from the scenario that they lived in. Both came from pretty bad scenarios. So in order to protect themselves, they shut down emotionally to an extent. So it takes a little while to open back up. And that's just not a point they were at when that happened.

[C]

And then about a year later, I. And I said, I have no real concept of time at this point anymore.

[B]

Don't quote him on it.

[C]

Don't quote me on that. Tina passed away and they came back to the barn and, you know, they were. They saw Tina down and they actually stayed with Tina. They stayed with Tina for the next 24 hours. We actually tried to encourage them out, but they would actually go outside, pick up their food, come back in, and they stayed right by tina's body for 24 hours. After that, we had to have them move to the side till we could. You know, we had to perform a necropsy, had to bury Tina and moved her outside. She wasn't buried, not too far away from the barn. And at that point, Sissy was still carrying her tire quite substantially. I mean, it was. It was pretty consistently security blanket. And then. So after Tina was buried, we gave them access to her grave site, and Sissy and Wink went right over to where she was buried. They hung out for a minute in relative quiet. There wasn't a lot of movement, and they walked away. And Sissy left her tire on the grave site. What does that mean? I have no idea. Circumstantial, potentially.

[B]

But she didn't really leave her tire anywhere, at least not for an extended period of time at that point.

[C]

And she left it there for several days.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

You know, so is there something more to that? You know, and I think that's what we go back to when you. When we talked about the beginning of Tess, evolution of what we saw, the elephants air. The evolution of understanding the evolution of their interconnected nature. And Then coming here to Brazil and seeing a next stage of that growth. I think there's so much more to these circumstances than we let on. We may not fully understand them, but we also shouldn't be dismissing them.

[B]

I mean, it's, you know, with what happened with Pocha and Gigi, I mean, sometimes we don't even try to understand what's going on with the interrelationships. You know, we just let them have that space for things to develop, however they're going to develop, because it seems like after so long of no autonomy, more appropriate to give them that space. But with Pocha, there was always us trying to understand what was going on with her, why she kept herself on the sidelines, why when there was a big trumpet party, she would get excited and go to run over with the other girls and last minute stop herself and, you know, go back in the other direction. And we weren't sure if she was just trying to make sure that Gigi made friends first because Gigi's energy was so big. You know, poetry was gentle and lovely and soft and very easy for our grandmas to accept, while Gigi was even much more spunky at that time because she had 20 something years of energy pent up that she wasn't able to express. So you look at scenarios like that and you try to understand, but it wasn't until after she passed away that it made you look at that whole scenario a lot differently.

[C]

Yeah, it made. It made so much sense, you know, and it really. She knew it wasn't about her at that point. And I think also being respectful to the bonds that the others may have developed with her, you know, if they really want to befriend her. But she maybe knew she wasn't long for the world, you know, and it's really. There's so much that we have yet to learn and yet to understand.

[A]

So talking, going back to Sissy and Winky, have you then, or did you then, at your time at Tess and also now in Brazil, sounds like there is actually like an evolution of grief from not knowing what to do at all to suddenly being reconnected with this instinct of knowing what to do. Maybe you can take us back to when Poacher passed, how the girls at the sanctuary in Brazil reacted.

[C]

Yeah, that was such a different scenario. And shocking, actually. Very, very shocking to see how all of that was. Was coordinated by Giza, you know, and we talk about this stunted life existence, you know, in this, you know, completely understimulated concrete pit. But her mom passed and she just seemed to know what to do right away. And I think we. We talked about this many episodes ago when we talked about poetry passing. But somehow she knew exactly how to. What she needed to do. She knew what she needed, which was to call the individuals one at a time. They all came from the back of the property, and then they called up one at a time to go visit her mom. And it was just perfectly coordinated and choreographed by Giza and. And how all these girls know

[B]

and how they all responded. I mean, clearly, the girls rumble for each other all the time. And we talk about. Because people are always like, rumble's a happy noise. It isn't actually always a happy noise. It can be an insecure noise. It could. I mean, it can be so many things. And their rumbles sound different, and every individual sounds different, but each individual can make multiple different rumbles that all carry a different kind of messaging. And this one specific rumble that she was doing, all of the elephants responded to. You know, they could easily have ignored a call from Gigi. You know, they were learning to get along with her and for Mara and Hana to tolerate her energy, but they didn't have the relationships that they have now. And a rumble is something that's easily ignored, but they all understood exactly what it meant, what she needed, what was going on, and came to an elephant that they weren't significantly bonded to at that point. I mean, there's such. And this goes back to everything we dismiss about them. Yes, we say they're intelligent and they're so emotionally deep and blah, blah, blah, blah, but we take everything away from them that feeds into that. And then you have stupid statements made like, they're not going to know how to feed themselves. They're not. You know, they've been alone all their life. They're not going to learn how to socialize. And yes, it may be difficult at times to figure out the best way to go about those things, but what they've shown us time and time again is that there is a significant piece of them that while they bury it to survive in captivity, it does not go away. And they connect to it when given a safe space so readily. And it is so natural for them to have these behaviors. They don't have to be taught. It is part of their soul.

[C]

I think that evolution has actually happened more quickly here than it did in Tennessee.

[B]

I think we're more. I think not only are we more aware of what's possible, but I think think the nurturing of the team and the teaching them some of what took decades to learn and starting way ahead of the curve. I think all helps to support the faster progression that I do agree that we are seeing here.

[C]

Do you think it has anything to do with never having to be closed in? I know they had freedom to go in and out of the barn a lot, but I think the level of freedom that, you know, within that space, even though it's smaller fenced off space than what we had a test at the time, I still think that there's more, I guess, liberty to explore and to connect. And I think it happened, though, because you're not that time that we're coming back to the barn where they have to be closed in this much more. I'm gonna say autonomous, for lack of a better way.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a definite difference. We know from listening to the girls up the hill, you know, nobody does anything unless somebody's sick. Like with Mara, we were at the barn almost, I would say 19 hours a day. But we can hear them up the hill and we hear the little vocalizations and the bigger ones and the parties and when somebody loses somebody and when somebody wakes up and all of the celebrations that go on. But I think it is more their time. There's no treatments, there's no feedings, there's no human interference. It is just them and nature from essentially 5 o' clock at night until 7 o' clock in the morning. And we're here for security and support when needed, but there is a different freedom to that time and that space. And of course, nighttime alone is different because of the very relaxed vibe and how everything feels in general. So, sure, I think it could definitely have something to do with it.

[A]

The beginning of the podcast, you talked about how zoos are now relating to elephants ability to grieve or processing grief more and giving them more time with their elephants if they have passed away. So do you think that is because of a more of a scientific development, or is it because they are realizing that they have been possibly just overlooking or oversimplifying the emotional bonds and the emotional connectedness of elephants? Because I had to think again about this quote that we had last week from or our last podcast from Graydon Carter, who said, we admire elephants for these traits, but yet if we dismiss their ability to grieve by just saying, oh, you know, okay, the elephants died, that's sad. You've been together for 40 years. But hey, you know, we need to get rid of this body. I mean, that's just totally stepping over everything that we apparently think elephants are so fantastic for.

[C]

Yeah, so I think that with zoos and I think people that working within zoos, I think that we're, and as a society, I mean, we're, we're all looking at these things differently. You know, we're looking at animals differently than we did 20 and 30 years ago. People are looking at the dogs differently than they are 20 and 30 years ago. And with that, I think that awareness or that, that, that understanding of the higher level complexity, whether we understand it or not, we know that there's a different level of complexity and that there's a reason behind these practices that they do. But if you look at, you know, our society was saying, you know, let's transform our zoo, you know, let's send our elephants to sanctuary, those calls weren't being made as they are now. There's very specific groups. But right now I think more people are connected to the complexity that we don't yet understand. In most species, that hasn't fully translated to substantial positive action. There's still a disconnect with that. However, I think that generally people are more attuned and more aware of this complexity.

[B]

And I do think it has to do with public pressure. I mean, there are still zoos that when I read an article about an elephant passing away, all they talk about is the fact that team's really hurt and so on and so forth, which I understand. I have literally never cried so much in my life as when the first elephant I took care of passed away. It is heartbreaking. But there is also the acknowledgement that whatever I'm feeling, her best friend is feeling so much more and my pain doesn't compare. So I tend to get frustrated whenever I see an article like that that talks all about the caregivers but doesn't talk about the elephant that this being has shared this tiny little space with for 40 years. So I do think there's still a disregard, unfortunately, to what that means. I think sometimes they do a little bit of that just to satiate the public who does understand from National Geographic and all these other things that elephants do spend time like that. So I think some places just give them a very short window of time, which it's so individual, the amount of time that they need and we've seen, you know, with the different elephants that have passed away, some really want to be there for a long time and others don't seem to need that. Some seem to protect themselves in a way and walk away and don't want that time. But, you know, you can't create a handbook that says, okay, an elephant passes away, you give their friend three hours, then you close them out and then you move the body. Because that doesn't work for the elephants. We've had a couple of elephants that were not ready to leave when we were actually required to have them leave because of necropsy requirements and SEMA making statements about how the window. We have to do a necropsy before it's considered compromised, which is not actually accurate. And we've definitely waited longer periods of time than that at the sanctuary in Tennessee for necropsies because they need time. You know, it's. It's like any other loving bonded being. It's not easy to say goodbye.

[A]

I had to think about when you said that Maya and Gita had been together for over 40 years and they only had such a short time together at the sanctuary to rekindle, to build up their friendship. And then g. Passed away so, so suddenly after. After two and a half years. And luckily she was, you know, they were with you in the, in the sanctuary surrounding. Because just trying to think how, how awful it must have been. Would have been like in a zoo or any other setting where they would be, you know, Maya might have been parted instantaneously from Gita. And just thinking about 40 years, you just don't dismiss that and say, hey,

[C]

no, but many times I do still, not even with grief, but even with separation to go for a breeding program or, you know, they still separate elephants all the times. And that too is the dismissing and dismission of the, the, the bonds, you know, that family that does develop that survival mechanism that is there. And a lot of times they will do so to justify the relocation, even though behind the scenes you'll hear, actually those were really bonded individuals. They just wanted to do this for breeding. And they'll say whatever they want in public statements. So there is this weird. As we said, there's more awareness, but it's not translating to positive action in many ways.

[B]

Yeah. With Maya. Gita. Gita ended up passing away at about 2 o' clock in the morning. Maya was separated from Gita. Once we found Gita, we've gotten in trouble for saying our freezing on the website because we said Gita was stuck. Gita was mentally stuck. She wasn't physically stuck anywhere. She just could not convince her body to take a step. And the interesting thing was Maya was not stressed at all about this scenario. And I think it's because Gita didn't really have anything physically wrong with her. It was more mental. So we separated Maya right away that morning, put her in another yard so he could function safely with Gita. And Gita ended up not passing away until 2:00 clock that morning. And we let Maya back over. And initially when she went, she didn't touch her. She smelled in her direction, but she wouldn't actually touch her with her trunk. And then she stood over, like, the very end of her feet, but didn't go closer. And it took her time to be more comfortable and open to accepting it, to touch her and to actually stand over her in a way that they used to when Gita was alive. Maya would stand over her while she slept. So she needed, you know, more than just an hour or two to get to a point where she could even move forward in that process to start accepting it. And Hana actually, as far as we know, never even went over to Geeta's body, only saw her. We ended up moving geeta by the 4,5 divider fence. And all of the times we saw Hana and all of the poop that we saw from Hana was on the four side of the fence, but Gita was on the five side. She had access to her and she could have gone over, but we don't know that she ever did. And she may have. But again, that was, as far as we know, the first elephant that passed away that she had ever seen.

[C]

And maybe for Maya, too. I mean, that should be her first dead body. Sure. You know, we know how weird that is in our society. But then let's go back to what should have happened if she was a wild elephant. Yeah. You know, if they're, well, an elephant, they're going to be raised in an environment where you're going to have family members pass away starting from a very young age.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

You learn what mourning is from a young age. You learn that this part of life from a very young age, you know, and, you know, for these elephants in captivity, many times. No, especially those that have lived alone for years, or Maya with her only partner.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and it's a. It's a different way of. It is different than when somebody moves away. There's still an energy connection to somebody that moves away. You still have that vibe that exists, you know, but when they pass that, there's a substantial change with that. And to have the first dead body that you encounter, it's different. It's a weird. It's a weird sensation.

[B]

And Hana was very different when it came to Ramba. But again, that was her first exposure was Gita and then seeing Maya's process after that and trying to nurture Maya through that. And then. So by the time Ramba passed, she was. She was very different. And she was the one standing over her and protecting her and not wanting to leave her when we had to.

[C]

But at the same time, it's also.

[B]

And I laugh because it's also not. And I think that's probably where you're going with it.

[A]

Very beautiful.

[C]

It's beautiful that they have that opportunity to understand something that is a substantial part of all of our lives, you know, and have it not be a mystery and have it be something that is celebrated and have these scenarios where geisha didn't end up alone in a concrete pit, where her mom passed away, you know, where Maya didn't see, you know, Gita on the other side of the hot wire fence, you know, passed away on a chain and Maya chained up and not be able to get to her. You know, it's beautiful that they have these opportunities to experience death, even if it's scary. Initially, looking at Sissy and Winky, second time, it was not scary at all. They were absolutely there for Tina, you know, and it's just, it's. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful part of what sanctuary can provide. And I think it's a beautiful part for our society to realize what we can do for these animals, even in a zoo setting. You know, the very least we can do, give them a little bit of time, let them feel, let them see, let them understand.

[B]

Yeah. Respect them enough to give them that space. And then they feel that. They feel that respect, that acknowledgment. I mean, it all goes so far.

[A]

Just. It's just as fascinating. Just, just briefly before we get cut off. You talked last time about when elephants in Tennessee came across the dead body of a deer which had been killed by coyotes. And a couple of days later, I was on X. I saw a video from Sanjita Aya, who's does a lot for elephants in India. And there was a. She shared a video of a street elephant walking along and a little. A kitten had been run over. And this. While every. Cars were like driving over, this little corpse specifically walked around it. And I had to think about what you'd said about this deer, you know, and this elephant obviously realized his little kitten being. And not stepping on it, but walking around it. So, yeah, elephants.

[C]

Let's go back to your first statement of we have so much to learn.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, they are not the better human. They are clearly the better species clearly, clearly a better species. And we have a lot that we can learn for them of how to improve who we are and what we are.

[B]

And with our limited intelligence and limited emotional depth, I don't believe we will ever be able to understand them and numerous other species that are on that same plane. We just, we're never going to touch understanding everything about them.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Well, a lot to think about and ponder around in the next three weeks until our next recording. So yeah, thank you for sharing those stories and your thoughts and have a lovely rest of your afternoon, whatever you're doing and take care until our next recording.

[C]

Thank you Nadia. Have a good day as well. We'll talk to you soon.

[B]

Bye bye Nadia. Good night.

[A]

Good night. That's all that we have time for this week. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and if you did, don't forget to subscribe. Hit the notification bell so you never miss an episode. Another great zero cost way to support the podcast is by leaving a five star rating or a glowing review as this helps other people discover the podcast. Thank you so much for your support and until we meet up for our next episode, take care.

[C]

Sa.