A Hair Journey from The Look on IMO

Summary

Gloss Angeles – “A Hair Journey” (Preview from The Look on IMO with Michelle Obama)

Date: November 12, 2025
Hosts: Kirbie Johnson & Sara Tan
Special Preview Moderated By: Julie Wilson (Beauty Editor-at-Large, Cosmopolitan)
Guests: Michelle Obama, Yene Damtu (hairstylist, owner of Aesthetics Salon), Marsai Martin (actor, producer)

---

Episode Overview

This special Gloss Angeles episode features an exclusive preview of "The Look" from IMO, hosted by Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson. The featured episode centers on Black hair as a centerpiece of identity, community, and cultural expression. Moderated by Julie Wilson, this conversation dives into the personal hair journeys of Michelle Obama, her longtime stylist Yene Damtu, and actress Marsai Martin. Together, they unpack the complexities of Black hair care—from childhood memories to the politics and pressures of image, especially in public life—while celebrating growth, freedom, and the sisterhood found through hair.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Childhood Hair Memories

[04:22 – 06:56]

• Michelle Obama describes hair care as a childhood battleground between her and her mother, marked by challenging wash days over the kitchen sink and a lack of products suited for Black hair.
  • “I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl because we didn’t have the facilities … you got your hair washed on the cold Formica kitchen sink.” —Michelle Obama [04:22]
  • Lack of appropriate products (like “Wella Balsam”) led to dry, hard-to-manage hair.
• Marsai Martin and others recall similar stories: painful detangling, at-home hair pressing with a hot comb, and trying to emulate classmates despite fundamentally different hair textures.
  • “When I got it pressed with the hot comb in the kitchen, I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight.” —Marsai Martin [07:27]
• The group laughs about hair mishaps, burns on the forehead and neck, and the universal rite of passage for Black girls—sitting between someone’s knees for hours.

2. The Communal and Cultural Role of the Salon

[09:36 – 14:16]

• Yene Damtu and Julie Wilson emphasize salons as hubs of connection, culture, and support—especially for Black women. Damtu stresses her effort to build community for women of color at her salon.
  • “It’s a place where we organize. It’s a place where we build community.” —Yene Damtu [13:09]
• Marsai Martin's experience on set (Black-ish) became her salon, exposing her to a new world of hair possibilities.
  • “That was my first time really getting to explore the amount of styles that can be for my hair … I needed that person to help me figure out what was for me so I didn’t constantly have to question if my hair even told a story.” —Marsai Martin [14:16]

3. Representation, Role Models, and Beauty Standards

[16:47 – 20:50]

• Michelle Obama discusses the lack of representation for Black hair and beauty during her childhood and the impact of pop culture icons (or the lack thereof).
  • “When we were growing up, we had no images … Not to pay, give respect and to show examples of our beauty and that we are beautiful.” —Michelle Obama [17:29]
• Growing up, she saw few Black characters, especially girls, with natural hair on TV.

4. Defining Beauty in the Household

[18:26 – 21:02]

• Michelle and Marsai reflect on their upbringings where intelligence and character were valued over looks. In Marsai's intergenerational home, beauty was less discussed directly but affirmed through demonstration, affection, and self-care rituals.
  • “We didn’t talk about beauty in my household. My parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades.” —Michelle Obama [18:26]
  • “We didn’t talk about beauty too much. But it was more like if I’d come home from school and I’d be like, ‘This person said this to me,’ my mom would be like, ‘F them. You’re gorgeous.’” —Marsai Martin [23:19]

5. High School, College & Self-Discovery

[20:50 – 29:30]

• Exposure to more diversity in high school gave Michelle a chance to experiment and claim her beauty and hair identity.
  • “I started going to him in my senior year and he did my hair from senior year in high school until I went to the White House. Wow. That relationship was that close.” —Michelle Obama [20:50]
• At Princeton, she describes the transition from relaxers and the logistical challenge of hair care, eventually discovering the freedom of braids.
  • “That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free.” —Michelle Obama [29:30]

6. Hair Mistakes & Experimentation

[29:50 – 33:08]

• Yene Damtu and Marsai Martin reflect on color mishaps, haircuts gone wrong, and the learning curves in managing hair independently.
  • “I had pink hair, I had blue hair ... and then it fell out. I just blame myself, I know better now.” —Yene Damtu [29:50]
  • Marsai's first experiment dying her hair honey blonde drew comments—so she posted a playful video “addressing the haters.”

7. Hair, Microaggressions & Boundaries

[33:39 – 36:43]

• The panel addresses unsolicited touching and microaggressions in public and in the workplace.
  • “Never touch a Black woman’s hair, period ... Solange wrote a whole song about it.” —Julie Wilson [34:08]
• Michelle recalls feeling compelled to conform to white beauty standards entering professional spaces and later, as First Lady, choosing to wait until after her time in office to be fully expressive with her hair.
  • "As First Lady... at least until people knew me, which took eight years, I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation." —Michelle Obama [36:45]

8. Evolving Freedom & Collaboration

[39:20 – 54:43]

• Freedom to experiment with hair has grown across generations, but pressures persist, especially in public or high-profile roles.
  • “We feel like a slave to our hair ... and the beauty industry. Freedom isn’t really free.” —Yene Damtu [47:03]
• Damtu details the care taken in collaborating with Michelle's glam team, always prioritizing health, versatility, and autonomy for Michelle.
• Michelle describes her desire for consistency and authenticity vs. performative "celebrity" hair: “I always had to look like me. I am not a celebrity ... I am famous, I'm in the public eye. But I’m not Beyonce.” [52:25]

9. Healthy Hair Practices & White House Routines

[53:43 – 55:55]

• Transitioning away from relaxers, leaning on protective styles and extensions, using regular steaming for moisture and health—these were non-negotiable elements of Michelle’s healthy hair routine in the White House.
  • “She steamed every appointment ... moisture was non-negotiable.” —Yene Damtu [54:51]

10. Motherhood, Generational Change, and the Crown

[55:57 – 62:51]

• Michelle wanted her daughters to see their natural hair as beautiful and had the resources to make sure they never felt pressured to relax their hair.
  • "They never have had relaxers. ... She [Malia] and Sasha both have different hair textures." —Michelle Obama [56:50]
• The special family moment of Barack seeing Michelle for the first time before White House state dinners—“It’s like the first look in a wedding or something.” [60:43]

11. Storytelling & Progress

[64:15 – 68:33]

• Hair is positioned as history, artistry, storytelling, and connection to ancestry—referencing public figures, music, and pop culture as ongoing sources of inspiration.
• Julie Wilson underscores progress since Michelle’s childhood—Black women now have the power to curate their stories, both in magazines and social media:
  • “We are magical. Whether I’m giving 23 inch bust down or if I have a sky high afro ... we are the creators of our own narrative and story.” —Julie Wilson [66:48]

12. The Crown Act, Ongoing Challenges, and The Need for Change

[71:21 – 73:54]

• The panel discusses the significance of the Crown Act, current as of July 2025 in only 28 states, and the ongoing necessity to fight hair-based discrimination in schools, the workplace, and even the military.
  • “Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against hair-based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place ... It’s passed in only 28 states as of July of this year, 2025.” —Yene Damtu [71:27]
• A call to action for greater education in cosmetology schools and for passing the law federally.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:22] Michelle Obama: “I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl...”
• [07:27] Marsai Martin: “I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight.”
• [13:09] Yene Damtu: “It’s a place where we organize. It’s a place where we build community.”
• [16:47] Michelle Obama: “We don’t see a lot of inspiration for our type of hair on television.”
• [29:30] Michelle Obama: “[Braids were] the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free.”
• [34:08] Julie Wilson: “Never touch a Black woman’s hair, period.”
• [36:45] Michelle Obama: “At least until people knew me ... I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation.”
• [47:03] Yene Damtu: “We feel like a slave to our hair ... and the beauty industry. Freedom isn’t really free.”
• [52:25] Michelle Obama: “I always had to look like me. ... I am not Beyonce.”
• [54:51] Yene Damtu: “She steamed every appointment ... moisture was non-negotiable.”
• [66:48] Julie Wilson: “We are magical. Whether I’m giving 23 inch bust down or if I have a sky high afro ... we are the creators of our own narrative and story.”
• [71:27] Yene Damtu: “Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against hair-based discrimination...”

---

Timestamps for Essential Segments

• 04:22–06:56: Michelle Obama’s challenging childhood hair care memories
• 09:36–14:16: Salons as community hubs for Black women
• 16:47–20:50: The absence of Black hair and beauty representation in pop culture
• 18:26–21:02: On not discussing beauty—and learning to define it for themselves
• 29:30: Michelle on the liberating power of braids
• 33:39–36:43: Navigating microaggressions and workplace hair politics
• 47:03: Discussion of the lifelong "slavery" to hair routines and breaking free
• 54:51: Key hair health tip: steaming was "non-negotiable"
• 71:27–72:39: The necessity of the CROWN Act to prevent hair-based discrimination

---

Tone & Notable Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, warm, intergenerational, and at times humorous—grounded in vulnerability about painful, funny, and triumphant hair moments. Speakers echo a strong sense of pride, resilience, and mutual support, even when discussing enduring challenges. Michelle Obama’s trademark honesty and optimism shines: the discussion is both practical (sharing real hair care lessons) and visionary (championing social change and representation).

---

Closing Takeaway

This episode is both an intimate memoir and a political call to action, chronicling the journey of Black women’s hair as a mirror for community, self-love, resistance, and power. The panel champions the beauty, freedom, and importance of embracing one’s authentic self, while underscoring the work still to be done—both for individuals and for society at large.

“Our beauty is so powerful and so unique that it is worthy of the conversation, and it’s worthy of demanding the respect we’re owed for who we are and what we offer to the world.”
—Michelle Obama [40:12]

---

For the full, nuanced conversation, listen to “IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson: The Look” wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One Bank Guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC.

[Podcast Host 1]

The holidays officially start for me when the kitchen smells like cinnamon and there's soup bubbling on the stove.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yes, hosting season is officially here and Macy's has every little thing that makes people feel welcome.

[Podcast Host 1]

I have personally been eyeing the whimsical mackenzie Child's checkered teapot for my afternoon tea.

[Podcast Host 2]

Ooh yes. And my new soup season. BFF a la crette Dutch oven that goes from the stove to table like a champ.

[Podcast Host 1]

Plus a sleek KitchenAid stand mixer you will actually want to leave out. This has been on my wish list for so long now.

[Podcast Host 2]

And heads up. Starting November 10th, Macy's rolls out Black Friday Kitchen deals 69.99 Ninja Blenders $39 All Clad Roasters up to $150 off select appliances from Ninja Brush, Breville KitchenAid and more.

[Podcast Host 1]

Get your home holiday ready at macy's or macy's.com hey Glams. We are so excited and so honored to give you a special preview from one of our favorite shows, IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.

[Podcast Host 2]

In their new series, the look, our queen Michelle Obama is giving a candid and unfiltered look into how her fashion and beauty choices in and beyond the White House became a blueprint for self expression, inclusion and cultural impact.

[Podcast Host 1]

You'll hear intimate conversations with glam collaborators and legends like Jane Fonda, Nina Garcia, Bethann Hardison, Elaine Wolteroth and Jenna Lyons. And it pairs with her new book, the Look.

[Podcast Host 2]

And we're particularly excited about today's drop because it's the hair episode and it's moderated by one of our dear friends, Julie. Julie Wilson, Beauty Editor at Large, Cosmopolitan.

[Podcast Host 1]

For many Black women, hair is not optional. It's a cultural inheritance, a political statement and a lifelong journey.

[Podcast Host 2]

Julie leads an honest conversation with Michelle, her stylist Yne Damtu and actor producer Marseille Martin about their personal hair stories and how Michelle's own evolution has reflected and inspired theirs.

[Podcast Host 1]

Here's the preview and you can hear the full series by searching IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you listen.

[Michelle Obama]

Dude, this this fashion is counting for at least one percentage Approval rating.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, this gown, you know, somebody.

[Julie Wilson]

Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation.

[Michelle Obama]

It's only value added, dude. It's.

[Julie Wilson]

Welcome to the Look, a special series on imo. The look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Julie Wilson, award winning journalist and beauty editor at large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yinee Demtu, renowned beauty expert, fellow founder and owner of Aesthetics salon in Arlington, Virginia, and longtime stylist to Mrs. Obama and Marseille Martin, award winning actor, producer and founder of Genius Productions, and of course, the one, the only Michelle Obama. Welcome, everyone. All right, I need to know what your hair journey was. What was it like growing up in the south side of Chicago being a beautiful little black girl? What were some of your earliest hair memories?

[Michelle Obama]

Sadly, it was combative.

[Julie Wilson]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, my mother admittedly grew up saying that she was not a hair mom. She was one of seven kids, two little brothers, a lot of. But I don't think my mom wasn't a girly girl in that way. Right. So I think she was intimidated by hair and by my hair. Right. Because I had a lot of it. It was thick, it was all over the place. And so wash day for her felt like a battle. Right. And that's what it was. It was wash day, as I describe in the book. It was like Sundays were over. You know, I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl because we didn't have the facilities. You know, you got your hair washed on the cold Formica kitchen sink.

[Julie Wilson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

That was annoying. You know, the back of your head hurt because you're leaning over it, and then the water is trickling out of a faucet, and sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold. And one thing I never realized back then, we weren't using the right hair care products for us because there were like, you got what you got at the grocery store.

[Julie Wilson]

There was an abundance.

[Michelle Obama]

There wasn't an abundance. There wasn't. You know, the soft sheen line hadn't really fully come out. So she was using wella balsam on my hair. And as Yanae now knows, I didn't even realize that that that product stripped all the oils out of our hair. It wasn't designed for black hair. So, you know, she'd wash it twice. And then the process of detangling that hair that without conditioning, I wasn't by the time I, you know, I couldn't be.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, Right, right.

[Michelle Obama]

So I think I was pretty good for a kid, but still took what felt like hours to comb through all my hair. And then the process of straightening, you know, it's like the hot comb on the stove. You know, Talk about heat on hair with a little oil. It was that the yellow oil, the ultra sheen, Ultra sheen oil. I still remember it. Cause I think maybe those were the only products we had. We had the ultra sheen.

[Julie Wilson]

I feel like this is, like, really, like, something we all have in common. Like, hair is such a shared experience for black girls. Like, do you guys remember, like, getting your hair pressed, like, at home?

[Marseille Martin]

Oh, yeah, yeah. But that wasn't. It was funny enough, my mom tried to stray away from getting my hair straightened as much as possible, because every time I'd get it pressed when I was younger, it turned out horribly because I would either go to school and it would look crazy or I would do something.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, right, right.

[Marseille Martin]

Funny story. Cause I always used to get, like, curling. She used to just rod curl my hair. And then I'd wake up and then take the rods out, and it just be in, like a. That was my principal hairstyle. So when I got it pressed with the hot comb and in the kitchen, I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight. And I remember every. Every lunch before recess, they would go into the bathroom and they would get a cup of water and straighten their hair like this. And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, okay.

[Julie Wilson]

Not understanding what reversion was.

[Marseille Martin]

Girl, I did it with them thinking that we kiki in, like, ha ha.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marseille Martin]

And they like, we like your hair. I'm like, thank you. Thank you. And then it's Texas heat, too. So I'm talking to one of my other friends. They're like, your hair. I'm like, what? I'm on the top of the slide. And I'm like, what are you talking about? It's like, oh, my God.

[Julie Wilson]

That's so funny.

[Michelle Obama]

Before our very eyes.

[Marseille Martin]

It was like my mom said, girl, what happened?

[Michelle Obama]

What were you thinking? And that was the thing about once you got your hair pressed, you were captive, you know? And I think that that, you know, goes along. And I was a tomboy. I loved playing sports. I was out there sweating. I used to want to be. And I liked an afro. One of my favorite. I loved baseball was this. Played softball when I was little. One of my heroes was Jose Cardinal on the Chicago Cubs. And he was Black first baseman. And he had this huge afro that he would put his cap on and then pick it out.

[Julie Wilson]

So the heroine was framing the hat.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's how I love to wear my hair with the cap on and have it picked out at bat, you know, So I wanted to be active. But when you get your hair pressed, you know, Mom's like, don't touch your hair. Don't.

[Julie Wilson]

You almost got to like walk around like this.

[Michelle Obama]

Right. Hope it doesn't rain and it's not just pressed. And don't think about swimming.

[Julie Wilson]

Even curls like ponytails. Right.

[Yanae Demtu]

On Sundays, I only got my hair pressed for special occasions. But regularly my mother, Sundays, you lay out, you sit between her legs, you try to touch your head, she hits you with the comb.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right.

[Yanae Demtu]

Put your hair in pigtails and just even braids or two twists.

[Julie Wilson]

It was.

[Yanae Demtu]

And it was an all day experience.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Yanae Demtu]

And it was one of those things my brother freely could run around. He could play in the neighborhood, he could do whatever it is that he wanted. But on Sundays I had to sit and get my hair done. And my mom, similar to Mrs. Robinson, my mother only went to this beauty salon. She did not. She never took care of her own hair. So trying to do my hair, it wasn't even if I was tender headed. It just. She wasn't really good at it right. Either. So it was just kind of like, this is painful and it doesn't look.

[Michelle Obama]

Good at the end.

[Yanae Demtu]

But it's just what you do.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah. My father, funny story. My father actually pressed me in my sister's hair.

[Marseille Martin]

Wow.

[Julie Wilson]

Like, he grew up with three sisters in North Carolina and had like the hot comb on the stove, the whole nine yards. And like just captive audience with his girls, like pressing our hair, like grease on the back of his hand.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, man.

[Julie Wilson]

Like, so interesting.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't think my father ever touched my hair. I can't think of a moment.

[Julie Wilson]

It's a very, like, that's experience and to bond, right? We bond right here, sitting, you know, between the legs, getting your hair braided, that sort of thing. And I feel like we probably all got burnt on our forehead at some point.

[Marseille Martin]

Right on the back of my neck.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Marseille Martin]

Trying to get in my kitchen, like the back of my back of my great grandpa.

[Julie Wilson]

It was always the worst one was on your forehead though. Cause like you can't cover that or you would get like. I love that picture of you when you're little with like your ponytails and that bang. That barrel from the sponge roller.

[Michelle Obama]

From the sponge roller. Well, I. Eventually, because my mother was so bad at doing my hair, I started going to miss Phillips little salon in her basement across the alley, because my mother gave up so soon. So here I am, six years old, probably going across the alley with my little money to Ms. Phillips basement. You know, the kind of basement salon that I think is almost in every black neighborhood. Still. Still.

[Julie Wilson]

You have a son. We're gonna talk about that.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. And she could press my hair faster, get it straighter, and then she would do this thing where she would make a bang, and she put this kind of hair stick that you put on your forehead that would hold the bang on your forehead. I don't know if you. Like, a wax stick.

[Marseille Martin]

Yeah, that sounds interesting.

[Michelle Obama]

It wasn't a wax stick. I remember it felt like a hair glue of some sort. But she just put it on my mother's product so the bang would stick to my head. And I always thought that was kind of cool.

[Julie Wilson]

It's like, almost like an edge. Edge control.

[Yanae Demtu]

Think about spritz and, like, pump it up back in the day. So it's probably like a Bronner Brothers or Dudley's product.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah. What up?

[Marseille Martin]

Yeah, I was like, yeah, she was doing arts and crafts.

[Michelle Obama]

Like, Oregon.

[Julie Wilson]

Innovative. Very innovative. We're so innovative. Black just period. But I want to talk about the salon of it. All right? Like, going to the salon, I mean, that's such an experience. The other women there, what are they getting their hair done? What are they talking about? I mean, you own a salon. Do you have that level of community and a village sense with your customers?

[Yanae Demtu]

Absolutely. You know, when we opened UP Aesthetics In 2017, one of the things that I realized living in the DMV was that I grew up in Orange county, growing to the salon. The salon experience. Not salon suites. No shade to salon suites, but being in a communal environment. It's a place where we organize. It's a place where we build community. And so in the dmv, I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we opened up Aesthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come that are in the professional workplace that aren't there all day, but they still get that salon feel. Like you still. It's like, oh, there's, you know, Michelle, that's.

[Michelle Obama]

She.

[Yanae Demtu]

She has a standing appointment on Friday, or, you know, you're not gonna have somebody come in with the bootlegs or, like, selling a food plate, but you still are getting that camaraderie, and you're still getting Hair care. And I think now more than ever, you don't see hair care take place in the salon because everyone is doing quick trends. You know, people are slapping on a wig.

[Michelle Obama]

Cool.

[Yanae Demtu]

That's great.

[Julie Wilson]

That serves a purpose.

[Yanae Demtu]

But how are we treating our hair underneath? And so it was really extremely important to me to build a space in a community where that existed.

[Julie Wilson]

Were you up in the salon when you were young?

[Marseille Martin]

I was. I was up in the salon. And then, of course, I started Blackish when I was nine. So that was a whole new world. That was kind of my version of the salon, in a sense, you know, And I was with people that I worked with every day. It'd be whether it was 7:00am or 7:00pm like, that's where we were just constantly getting our hair changed for different scenes. And that was my first time really getting to explore the amount of styles that can be for my hair, you know, because I think growing up in Dallas, it was really only what I was telling y', all, like, the rod set with the curls or, you know, my terrible press, you know, get my hair straightened. Right. But working with Oroxy Lindsay, which is absolutely amazing, so talented and so unique and a perfectionist and really, like, transforms your hair into something different that you would have never thought in a million years. Like, oh, I didn't even know it could look like this. So I. Growing up with her, it was really, really special to be able to see that and made me learn more about it, you know, because both my mom and my little sister have different hair textures that I would always, in a way, feel interesting about myself. Of, like, hmm, there's two different textures. But, like, theirs is very fine, really thin. Can be in a ponytail, like, in 20 seconds. Mine is super thick in the middle. Like, I can't even get it. You know, I have to use a hair clip. And it just was really different. And especially growing up on Black ish, you know, with Yara and Tracee, they have two different hair textures than I do. So I needed that person to help me figure out what was for me to where I constantly didn't have to question, you know, if my hair even told a story, you know?

[Julie Wilson]

But I have to say, watching it, and I'm sure you guys would agree it was so beautiful one seeing a black family like that, you know, for us to have that storytelling beyond the Cosbys and, like, that sort of thing, but also the hair inspiration right between you, Yara and Tracy, like, I would just be like, oh, I wanna do that. And look at that edges are slang.

[Michelle Obama]

I wish I had you when the girl were little, because I used to run out of styles. I just creatively, I'm like, okay, one poof, two poofs, you know? But then I'd see your character and I'd be like, ah, I could have tried that. Yeah.

[Julie Wilson]

Such cute stuff.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, it's just. It's just amazing how we don't see a lot of inspiration for our type of hair on television. And I think that that was a big part of that. Part of what kind of got me off on the wrong track in terms of loving my hair was because when we were growing up, we had no images. There were no images of black hair, black characters, let alone black children. You know, we grew up watching the Brady Bunch. It was Marsha and Jan, and it was the Partridge Family. And it was. I think the closest young person that I saw was Janet Jackson, and she was still a baby, you know, so. With the Jackson 5. But Janet Jackson wasn't a part of the sort of American zeitgeist in the same way. So the notion that we grow up playing with Malibu Barbie and who wants the Chrissy doll with the curly hair? Because you're always trying to fix the hair. You want the hair to flow. And I think that a lot of women, white women, don't understand how problematic it is for young black girls not to see themselves in popular culture and not to pay, give respect and to show examples of our beauty and that we are beautiful.

[Julie Wilson]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

Absolutely.

[Julie Wilson]

Like, you have to see it and for it to be celebrated in the world, to say, wow, yeah, it's being celebrated. Of course I'm beautiful. But if you don't see that, so was your mother who was. Who was telling you you were beautiful?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, we didn't talk about beauty in my household. You know, I mean, it wasn't. You know, my parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades. I don't know whether that was intentional or not, but I don't remember us sitting around focusing on looks, period. Right.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

So it probably wasn't until I was maybe in high school that I started thinking about taking control over my look. And I think that had to do with the fact that I went to a neighborhood public school. So From K through 8, I was in the neighborhood. And then I got into a magnet high school, and I drove across the city, and it was a school that attracted kids from all over the city. So it was the first time I was around all kinds of kids, all kinds of races, all kinds of socioeconomic. Backgrounds of black people, Right. So Joe Dudley was in my high.

[Yanae Demtu]

School class, the son.

[Michelle Obama]

The son of Dudley. And they were wealthy people. You know, there were people, young kids like me, who were going downtown to get their hair done. They were. We were. We had to commute through downtown Chicago. So I started going into the department stores there, and I started to see, oh, like there are black girls that are. That do have a lot of variety. They are doing different things with their hair. I think it was high school when I started discovering the possibility of style in clothing and in hair, because I was around a lot more people.

[Julie Wilson]

And you got creative, you started doing.

[Michelle Obama]

And I started exploring. I started looking for my own hairdressers. You know, I started getting recommendations. I would see somebody and go, oh, girl, your blowout looks nice. Where do you go? And I would take my little babysitting money and I go down. And that's where I found my first hair. My hair salon community was in high school. When you talk about that salon, it was Ronnie flowers, the salon with Van Cleef. I started going to him in my senior year in high school, and he did my hair from senior year in high school until I went to the white house. Wow. That relationship was that close.

[Julie Wilson]

That is beautiful. And that's what we're talking about. That salon relations.

[Michelle Obama]

Foreign.

[Podcast Host 1]

You know how much Kirby and I love Tatcha and the founder, Vicky sai. If you haven't heard our interviews with her, do that after this. On the show, she's shared how Tatcha is all about building tiny rituals that restore joy, which is very much needed in the year that is 2025. The dewy skin cream is that feeling in a jar. Are. It's a luxuriously comforting moisturizer that plumps fine lines and seals in moisture for Tatcha's signature dewy glow. Fun fact. It is the brand's bestseller. A dewy skin cream is sold every 30 seconds. In a clinical study, 100% of the panelists showed immediate improvement in plumpness, suppleness, and radiance in just two weeks. It is transformative Japanese skin care that nurtures the skin and the mind. And it's why we love it so, so much. The best part is you can enjoy 15 off your first purchase at tatcha.com with code GLOSSANGELIS15.

[Julie Wilson]

But I love Michelle how you were saying in high school, you kind of realized, like, I always love asking the question, when did you know black was beautiful? And like, you kind of having that realization, then what about you? Marseille And Yanae, like, when did you know black was beautiful?

[Marseille Martin]

Ooh, when did I know black was beautiful? I mean, I think just starting in my household, like, I grew up with, of course my parents were around, but also my great grandma lived with us. So basically, like my mom's mom and then my mom's mom's mom all lived in the same house.

[Julie Wilson]

Intergenerational homes.

[Marseille Martin]

Exactly. And then my dad's mom also lived in our house. So it was just full of grandparents.

[Julie Wilson]

That were loving on you.

[Marseille Martin]

That was just loving on me. And funny enough, we didn't talk about beauty too much either. But it was more like if I'd come home from school and I'd be like, this person said this to me. My mom would be like, f them.

[Michelle Obama]

You're gorgeous.

[Marseille Martin]

And I'm like, oh, okay, okay, that's cool. But I especially learned from my mom's mom, who I called my booba. She had a range of wigs and a range of nail polish, and even my great grandma collected purses. And they just always were about always first. And then it would be like, you know, midday. They would cater to everybody, you know, start cooking, playing music, you know, making sure I was okay, and my puppy at the time. And it was really just. It was sweet when I just started observing more, you know, and that's where I learned just that black was beautiful. And back then and now and seeing the transition into, you know, when I was young, growing up in Dallas with them and then now them being my angels up above and kind of guiding through those situations of like, wow, my booba would have said this at the time. Or if someone, you know, told me this, like, I would remember everything that they said to me. So that's definitely the first time I learned. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Julie Wilson]

Love that. What about you, Yanae?

[Yanae Demtu]

High school. I think high school is probably like, the pivotal moment. I was a cheerleader, similar to Marseille. All the girls wanted to put water on their hair. And I knew. I knew. I was like, you were like, my.

[Julie Wilson]

Hair can't do that. No, no.

[Marseille Martin]

See, I didn't know. I said, my hair can't be filled.

[Michelle Obama]

For the breakie dope, right?

[Marseille Martin]

I said, they laughing. I want to laugh too.

[Yanae Demtu]

They were like, we're going to make our hair crinkly. We're just going to put some water on it. And I was like, I can't put. I can't put water on it.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, right.

[Yanae Demtu]

And they're like, why? And I was like, cause my hair won't do what your hair does. And Coming home again. My mother was just kind of like. My parents were very protective. We grew up in Orange county, predominantly white, an Asian neighborhood. I was the only black in a lot of environments. And so my parents were very protective of like, you are fine, you're worthy. But on the weekends we spent all of our time in la. So it was two different worlds that I would see. I would be in Orange county and I would live in that world. And then I would go to LA and I would be around like predominantly black neighborhoods. So it was two different contrasts. And so I got to see both sides. And I felt more comfortable when I was around more black folks than I was at school. Because at school it was just kind of like the way that I speak and like my hair is different in how I present. And then I'm first generation Ethiopian American, I have a funny name. There was just so many. It was, it was layered for me. So high school is when my parents really started to be like, you're beautiful, you're fine. Like, I was, I. I was a cheerleader, I ran for homecoming princess. It was then that I was like the self esteem and the confidence was being instilled in me. And it was like, you're perfectly fine the way that you are.

[Julie Wilson]

And the pride of being like a black woman in that space.

[Yanae Demtu]

Yes. Because in the beginning you're ashamed. You're kind of like, I'm different. You retract. You don't wanna say too much. And then you realize, like, no, nope, I'm gonna say what I want.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right?

[Julie Wilson]

But Michelle, like going from the south side of Chicago to Princeton, what was that transition like? Because that's gotta be a lot. You're. Now you were in high school, you're learning that black is beautiful, that you're experimenting with your hair and doing all the things. So what was the Princeton experience like?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, it's interesting because. And I enjoyed my Princeton experience. I had great education, I made great friends. I think one of the things that I saved me was that I wasn't curious about assimilating, okay, what I had learned in high school and growing up on the south side of Chicago and growing up in a big extended family is that I need to go where I'm loved and have community. Now when it came to hair, well, that was another story. Cause I'm in Princeton, New Jersey and.

[Julie Wilson]

Where are we getting our hair done?

[Michelle Obama]

What you do is you set down foot and you start finding all the black girls. Where do you get your hair done? Where do you get your hair Done. And there were some girls that were sophisticated enough that by then I had a relaxer way too soon. But I gave up on the pressing comb very early, and my mother was happy to see it go by. Then I was in a relaxer. So how do you get your touch ups? And for those of you who don't know about relaxers, for black people, it's a process of chemically straightening your hair. And that means as your hair grows up in its curly style, you need to continue to straighten that new growth that comes in, which is every six week process. And now here I am, a freshman in college. So there was a department store called Bamberger's and a mall near Trenton. There was a hair salon there. I went there for the first year and it was just another hassle, right? Because in addition to going to classes and trying to have a life and go to a party, I had to make my hair appointments and go off campus and get on a bus and go to the mall. I care.

[Podcast Host 1]

Really.

[Michelle Obama]

It just. It's just like, oh, geez. Always a thought. But I discovered I met my D.C. friends, a lot of girlfriends from D.C. so now I'm out. I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city. I'm on the East Coast. And I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who live in D.C. because. Because there were a ton of braiders in D.C. and that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. So sophomore year, I visited one of my girlfriends, got my hair braided. Then I went back to my salon, found a braider, and I started wearing my hair braided in sophomore year. And a lot of that was because I just needed. I needed to be efficient. I needed to be focusing on class and having fun and not worrying about getting touch ups. That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free.

[Julie Wilson]

Yes. You know, protective styles will really change your life and allow you to just like, live and be. But I wanted to ask you guys too, like, once you got that freedom, college, or going on to do your career or whatever, did you guys ever do anything that you're like, now? Left to my own devices, like, why'd I do that?

[Yanae Demtu]

Cosmetology school. I did everything under the sun. I had pink hair, I had blue hair.

[Julie Wilson]

You did the color.

[Michelle Obama]

You lifted your hair, bleached it, and.

[Yanae Demtu]

Then put color on top and then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair. And I just blame myself I know better now. And you're experimenting in cosmetology school, and you're just trying different looks, and you're trying to be a creative. But again, it's also one of those things where my counterparts were doing all these different things with their hair. So I was like, I'm gonna do the same thing too, and I'm learning about this, so why not?

[Julie Wilson]

I put the water in my hair, too. That was your water moment.

[Yanae Demtu]

But my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care, nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever. And, you know, what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture, but I didn't. I was just like, well, I'm in an educational institute, so of course they're gonna guide me in the right way. And it wasn't. And afterwards, I was like, okay. So then I was like, no more color, no more nothing. I'm just gonna take a break from it all. But it was definitely an experiment.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah. What about you, Marseille?

[Marseille Martin]

I'm trying to figure it out.

[Michelle Obama]

I changed you so much. Yeah.

[Marseille Martin]

I think, honestly, I've been so secure in the styles that I like since I was little. I really didn't change it too, too much. It's so funny, because I learned. I'm, like, thinking more about the mistakes that happen after transitioning to one style to the next. So when I get my hair braided and it's time to take them down, it was just me by myself trying to take my hair down. You know, trying to be growing, like, okay, I got you, Mom. I got it, Mom. I was like, my hair's. My hair's, you know, stayed the same. I'd cut it.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah, I cut it, girl.

[Marseille Martin]

Yeah. I didn't know you had to start here, Right. I cut it up here. You were like, you know, it's not that. Like, yeah, yeah. And then I take pictures in my little bob, my little braid bob that I made, like, oh, this is cute. And then I take it down, and then it just looks really bad. It would look. It would be like, part of it's up here, part of it's down here. And it just was. Yeah. But I just. I'm thinking about, like, those kind of little mishaps that just taught me more about just my hair overall. I'm like, oh, okay. Maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step. And I've dyed my hair before, but never pink and blues. It was probably, like, never the pink sort of Blood. Yeah, it's currently dyed now, but the first time I dyed it was like a blonde. Like, it was like a honey blonde honor. Yeah, it was a honey blonde. And it was 2020. You know, no one cared. We was inside, we was in the house. And yeah, that was, like, the one time where I really. I really dyed my hair. And it was funny because back then, you know, everything was really, really remote. Of course, during 2020, so it was the BET Awards, and I had to present in my backyard. And that was the first time people saw, like, the honey lawn.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. We gotta pull up that picture.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, right.

[Marseille Martin]

Y' all can pull it up. Y' all can pull it up. But I think that was. That was definitely. That was a time. Let me just say that that was a time. And then there was commas. There was like, why is her hair blonde? Like, is that a wig? And I was like, I don't know what to do. I was, like, trying. I thought I liked it. Yeah, I was just trying stuff. And my mom was like, it's okay. Look effle like you like your hair. So I did a video that was just like, addressing the haters. And that was very, very funny.

[Julie Wilson]

I love it. I love the humor. But the clap back and all of that, that brings up such a good point about our hair is people touching it, petting us. Right. And like, how have you guys navigated that? Because I've definitely been on the New York subway, and someone's hand is just, like, in my head where I've had superior, like, at work, at jobs, touch my hair. And it's just like, so what did.

[Michelle Obama]

You do in those instances?

[Julie Wilson]

I mean, when I was on the subway, I was like, no, please don't touch my hair. Actually, hot tip. Never touch a black woman's hair, period. You shouldn't touch anyone's hair. But, like, Solange wrote a whole song about it. You can go listen to it on. You know what I'm saying?

[Michelle Obama]

I'm proud of that.

[Julie Wilson]

But, like, don't touch my hair, please. When it was in the workplace, it was harder. Cause this is a superior. And so, like, and it was a white woman. And it's hard because you're like, in that moment, you just feel like, me too. Like, you just feel like, oh, my God, that was uncomfortable. How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry in your husband's arms. And that's what I did. But. And then cussed her out, like, you know, at home with my friends. But, you know, that is a very unique experience I feel like most black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair or how's that? Like, I want to feel it. What's the texture? And like. But unsolicited.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think that's why conversations like this, why I wanted to talk about hair in the look, because I think I want us as women of color, all the women of color in the world with all the different textures. I want us to get comfortable with the subject of our hair and owning our beauty and being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these spaces, circles of conversation, to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they take for granted or they don't offer us. That's true, and this is completely true when it comes to the workplace. I mean, the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel is really a presumptuous kind of, wow. How does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair? And let me tell you, as first lady, even though I wore my hair braided in college, when it was time for me to walk into that law firm to start getting jobs, it wasn't even a question in my mind.

[Julie Wilson]

You just knew.

[Michelle Obama]

It was just like it was unknowing. It wasn't up for discussion. There was a standard of hair, and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually to get your hair blow dried. And I mean, I had a standing. We all know the standing appointment that is weekly.

[Julie Wilson]

I stand every two weeks.

[Michelle Obama]

But Dicky, I had one weekly. And it's costly and it's time consuming in ways that a lot of people don't understand. You know, coming into the White House and we were having conversations, I came in with a relaxer. And I knew the importance of making broader statements about hair as the first black first lady. But I will tell you, I consciously understood that, at least until people knew me, which took eight years, that I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation. Which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now, because it always is an important part of a woman and a black woman's journey. But I couldn't risk.

[Julie Wilson]

I know that was such a powerful statement. When you came out and said America wasn't ready, it wasn't ready for that.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I mean, they couldn't handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump on stage.

[Julie Wilson]

They Couldn't handle your arms out.

[Michelle Obama]

With my arm out in your portrait.

[Julie Wilson]

They were like, what is going on? Like, could you imagine if you came down, like, some box braids? Like, they would be like, what is that? Why is she wearing her hair like that? You know, Like, I think that that's so profound that you were able, like, because two, you could have been like, screw it, say it loud. I'm black and I'm proud. I'm gonna do the things. But that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically.

[Michelle Obama]

And there's also, you know, this is. We talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know the gener. Generationally, people get impatient and they want change now. And change is one of those things. It's like, you gotta read the room sometimes and feel the time, you know, in my mind, I knew there was going to come a point in time in my public life where I was going to get my braids back in. I was gonna reclaim that. But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with health, with kids and military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda, fashion and hair had to be a backstory for the moment.

[Julie Wilson]

Choose your battles, you know, what you had to get done.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly. But I knew that representation is important. I knew that then. I know it now. Which is why we're doing this, because now it's time. We should now be in a point in our nation's history, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting and embracing the differences of all of us, that there isn't a standard of beauty, and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover. That's taste, you know, that's just sort of what you might happen to, like.

[Julie Wilson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

But it isn't the standard, you know, and we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty.

[Julie Wilson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And our beauty is so powerful and so unique that it is worthy of the conversation, and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world.

[Julie Wilson]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Marseille and Yanae, I want to know what you guys also think about the this now, in this day and age, the freedom. Right. You're styling people's hair and, like, overseeing your salon. You're out here with these amazing braids, and, like, I've scrolled through your Instagram so much, like, seeing all of the hairstyles that you do, it seems like, there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not. Not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not or present myself in this way and not be, you know, criticized in a huge way.

[Marseille Martin]

Yeah, I know. For me, it's just about. I think in this day and age, too, the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality, just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else, I think that I am lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that I am flawed in any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make. And I trusted that. I trusted them. I trusted my family, I trusted my grandparents and just the people around me that said that it was okay to do what my heart desired. And I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout. Regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said, I trusted that statement. I didn't trust, you know, anything else. So for me, that's just kind of what I wanted to do. And I am happy during this time. People have started to tell their own story and have their journey speak for themselves when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So as a creator at heart and somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm and just do whatever, that excited me. So I think. I think that's just the energy that I carry in any red carpet, in anything, whether I'm in the house, going out to the grocery store, or I'm going to the next event. That's just what it is. And I've had my braider, Twi, who is absolutely amazing in LA. I've had her since I was 13, maybe. Really, when I started little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I started being like, all right, all hands on deck. Who are my people? Who is my team? Like, who are the people that understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I don't understand in a new light and in a new lane that I can create for myself. So I was gonna say, do you.

[Julie Wilson]

Bring your glam with you? Like, on projects? Are you very adamant? If someone reaches out to you for a project, you're like, I'm bringing my hair and make. Cause I'm not leaving it to y' all to figure out what this face and this hair gives.

[Marseille Martin]

It's really interesting. It's funny. Cause I've gotten pickier. But I wasn't like this. I wasn't like this at all. I've gotten pickier the more stories that I've had throughout my life and different memories. I wasn't as picky, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else, I'm like, all right, let's see who's from New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course. And then it was this lady who came in, didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick and a straightener to put in a ponytail. It was just. It was the craziest thing. I was going to a. I was going to a Prada fashion show at the time.

[Julie Wilson]

Oh, no. And you're probably like, oh, my gosh. I wanna slay.

[Marseille Martin]

That was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time. And my mom came in, and she said, all right, you have a good one. The lady left, and she said, where's my, you know, the pom pom bun? The pom pom bun. She popped that bun in. She drew the draw shoes, like.

[Michelle Obama]

And put some bobby pins in.

[Marseille Martin]

Got a little scarf.

[Julie Wilson]

She's like, not today. My baby's not gonna be at the Prada show.

[Marseille Martin]

Luckily, Prada got a scarf. She said, prada got again, Us making is good.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I, on the other hand, like my people.

[Julie Wilson]

Yes.

[Marseille Martin]

I love my people.

[Julie Wilson]

I mean, she's been with you in the White House, but I want to talk about this level of freedom now. Yeah, I love this, because this is. You have been giving us looks. You, too, have been creating such moments, Hair moments. Talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have now that you can come of, Step away from the whole respectability politics of the White House, and you can have fun. How is it, like, collaborating? Do you guys come to each other with ideas?

[Marseille Martin]

I do.

[Julie Wilson]

Like, how does that work?

[Yanae Demtu]

We do collaborate.

[Julie Wilson]

We need all the tea.

[Yanae Demtu]

The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered. And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole glam team. It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special, is that we collaborate. Asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing? Where is she going? What is she doing? And then once we figure that out, then we go. We individually have conversations with her. And I'm like, I'm thinking this. So depending on what the neckline is doing, like, earlier, we Talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful. And then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us. I think so often black women, we feel like a slave to our hair. And that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids.

[Julie Wilson]

Right.

[Yanae Demtu]

We are a slave to the beauty industry. We have to go to the salon. We have to buy these products. We have to wrap our hair. We have to do this. We can't just jump in the pool. We can't just vacations. And freedom isn't really free. And so the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her and that she can take care of herself. And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be.

[Marseille Martin]

Yes.

[Yanae Demtu]

And so our collaboration process, like she said when she came in, she's just like, he got me out of braids. And I was like, just temporarily, but we're gonna set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair.

[Julie Wilson]

Michelle, are you having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun. We've seen the little buns, the two buns. We've seen all of the things like you're.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, it is. So it is freedom. It is. You know, I had fun in the White House, don't get me wrong. And, you know, while I have a team, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team. Johnny Wright, who trained Yanae, he's moved on. You know, there was my original stylist, Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House, and Jerry, who does braids. Because of the beauty of Yanae is that she's not wedding me to her. If I want to go into braids, and she knows the best braider, she's going to get the best braider in. And I develop that relationship. So I think there's a generosity of spirit that goes into this team. It's like, this isn't my client, my thing. You know, Yanae isn't the celebrity in the celebrity stylist, because we really didn't. As I said, we weren't out front on hair and beauty. So I needed a team that was okay being in the background for 8, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it. So all of that made it always fun. And at the end, all I said to my Team. When I went into the White House, I said, I wanna walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check and my hair in my head.

[Julie Wilson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

And that's the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as black women. But I think all women go through this. I mean, I've heard this from friends of all national. Did you get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair and the color is too harsh, it burns your hair out. Your hair dries out, you know, and that's.

[Julie Wilson]

It's traumatizing.

[Michelle Obama]

It is traumatizing to have somebody mess.

[Julie Wilson]

Up your hair, your crown, you know.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes. It grows back, but it still. It feels like an assault, you know, I mean, it's just sort of like, what did you do and why did you do this? And if you didn't know what you were doing, why didn't you just say so? Right. I mean, all of us have experienced that, you know, that sort of trauma. I didn't have that, you know, because.

[Julie Wilson]

You had your village and was your village. I know we talked a little bit about this. Yine. But like, was your village also supporting your mother and the girls in the White House?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, for sure.

[Julie Wilson]

So you're very intentional about all the ladies hair.

[Michelle Obama]

Right?

[Julie Wilson]

All the ladies hair.

[Michelle Obama]

Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say, as Marseille is, when you were in the public eye, you can't have a bad hair day.

[Julie Wilson]

And you were getting up at 4 o' clock in the morning, 4:30 in the morning to work out.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Julie Wilson]

And then you would.

[Michelle Obama]

4:30 work out. I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and a half process. Because everybody is efficient too. Because I'm working. It's like, we can't.

[Julie Wilson]

Efficiency.

[Michelle Obama]

You can't take. I don't have an hour to get.

[Julie Wilson]

But that's a lot of prodding and heat and that sort of thing. But your hair was able. You talk about having.

[Michelle Obama]

But we use protective styles. Protective styles, extensions, we use wigs, extensions. We used it all. And something that I wasn't used to coming out of a regular person's life where you just used your own hair, you know, was clear in the team is like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day. Sometimes. Sometimes two, three times a day, depending upon. Did it rain? Did you swim? Did you. And have it stay in your head. And that's, you know. So what I realized is like, oh, the only way you do that is like you can't use your own hair.

[Julie Wilson]

I love that you say in the book too, that you wanted it to look like your hair.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, that was the other thing. Cause it was about the independence, you know? Cause I was like, well, what if you get sick? Right? What if you, you know, what if life happens and now I'm in some long weave and I'm. I don't know how to. I don't know what to do with this. This isn't me. That's also the difference with me. I always had to look like me. That's the other thing. The team was like, I am not a celebrity. I am famous. I'm in the public eye. But I'm not Beyonce, you know, And I don't.

[Julie Wilson]

You are. I mean, you're our political mama Beyonce or something.

[Michelle Obama]

But to show up with hair down my back one minute and snatched ponyt. That would detract. Not because it's me or because it's black hair, but if, like every time I'm showing up, you know, consistency, it's the ponytail that's walking into the room and it's not me. And the room shouldn't be looking just at me. It should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to. And it should be looking at, you know, so there was some level of, let's be consistent. You know, I'm not singing on the stage. I'm not, you know, whipping my hair back and forth.

[Julie Wilson]

Right, Right.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm actually in somebody's church or I'm at a cemetery.

[Julie Wilson]

She's like, I have to look good, but like, I'm at a school.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm on the ground with four year olds. We're just reading. It should have. Just reading hair.

[Marseille Martin]

Just reading hair.

[Julie Wilson]

Just reading hair.

[Michelle Obama]

That's all we're doing is reading. Nothing to see here.

[Marseille Martin]

Not a bust down.

[Julie Wilson]

Right. But I.

[Marseille Martin]

Not the hair.

[Julie Wilson]

I'm curious around the maintenance of it. All right, Are there tips and tricks, like, even just like beyond the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good but healthy? Like, what could, like, were there, like, things y' all were doing, like in the White House that we need to know about some magic going on?

[Yanae Demtu]

I think the biggest thing was transitioning her out of a relaxer.

[Julie Wilson]

Okay.

[Marseille Martin]

Okay.

[Yanae Demtu]

First thing first. And then the use of protective styling, the use of extensions. Just realizing that the average person doesn't have to go into extensions. And one of the things that I always tell when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity, I'm like, you don't have Celebrity glam with me. Like, this person can have a wig on today and then have a different wig on tomorrow, but they have someone else maintaining it. That's not realistic for you to maintain. And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it. But we were also able to maintain it in a way that if we were sick, if someone wasn't available, that she can make herself look decent. So again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match. Understanding. Can she tie it into a ponytail? So, so protective styles, using extensions, staying away from chemicals and knowing that less is more.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, in constant conditioning. Right.

[Julie Wilson]

I was gonna say, are there products that you loved? Like, did you deep condition?

[Yanae Demtu]

Like, she steamed every appointment.

[Julie Wilson]

Steamed.

[Marseille Martin]

Oh, I love that.

[Julie Wilson]

Come on with the steam.

[Michelle Obama]

Steam. Yeah, we had a steamer every.

[Julie Wilson]

Every appointment that you. Every wash day. Cause you did have a wash day. Every Sunday was wash day in the White House.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah.

[Julie Wilson]

With everyone, mom, the girls.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, mine varied. It wasn't Sunday, because if I. When I ever had a down day, right. The girls, because they were in school and, you know, they would. Sundays tended to be their days. She was regular.

[Yanae Demtu]

She was regular.

[Michelle Obama]

Grandma was. Grandmas want regular.

[Yanae Demtu]

But she came to the salon.

[Michelle Obama]

She was just like, I could just.

[Yanae Demtu]

Come to the salon.

[Michelle Obama]

We have a salon in the White House.

[Julie Wilson]

Okay.

[Michelle Obama]

So. But she would choose. Which is just a little room. It was like the kitchen of the White House. So I like that in every salon.

[Yanae Demtu]

It was right next to the kitchen, too.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, Grandma. Yeah. Was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis.

[Julie Wilson]

But I love this tip steaming, because I feel like, look, I'm a beauty editor. I get it. Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is. But it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time. You might do it when you're in the salon. But I love the fact that it's like that was something that was non negotiable in your hair routine.

[Yanae Demtu]

Non negotiable.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Yanae Demtu]

Moisture.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah. But wait, can we talk about the girls a little bit? I love how you were talking about how you were always like, you know, loved on and poured into. And we can see that, like Sasha and Malia were. That was done at least from the outside looking in. And you've talked about it, you know, in your books of how much you loved on them and wanted them to have this, like, beautiful childhood, even in the public eye. But when it came to hair, too, I think it was so interesting. That you were dealing with this respectability politics of, you know, straightening your hair and having it a certain way. But also you're raising these two young black girls. Yes. And like is almost like a do what I say, not what I do. Like, how are you pouring into them to say you have to love your hair, the way it grows out of your head. Be proud of your blackness, all of that. But, like, I've gotta do this.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I mean, they never have had relaxers. I think. I think we did a henna once. We did a caricature for Malia, and that didn't. And it was like, mm, mm, no, not going back there. And she was in twist until she chose what to do with her hair. I mean, she and Sasha both have different hair textures. Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist. Malia's hair twisted up so nicely, and she had the cutest twist. And so she became a teenager and was like, I need something. But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they understood the difference of my hair was work. It was work hair.

[Julie Wilson]

They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair and she's doing this. Why doesn't she show her natural hair to the world? They could understand the nuance that I have to do this for work. But I want you to be able to.

[Michelle Obama]

You're a little girl and, you know, and you're girls and your hair is beautiful. But they, you know, but we. Because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they, you know, they saw so many different versions of beautiful. And Jerry, who had dreads, and Yanae, who changed her hair every other month. It seemed she's a hair girly. You know, they were surrounded by all different types of black women doing different things with their hair. Right. And generationally, thank goodness, you know, the Marseille, you guys are coming up with different messages. You know, they do see social media. They are. They, unlike us, they have Marseille.

[Julie Wilson]

Right.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, they have Yara. They have so many. So many real life examples of how different and beautiful we are. I mean, that's how far we've come.

[Julie Wilson]

Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama and, like, how did he ever weigh in on your hair? Was he ever coming into the salon like, oh, that's cute. Or like, any, like, amazing reactions when you walked out? And he was like, damn. Yes.

[Marseille Martin]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were State dinners. Right. And I write about sort of that whole. Because the state dinners were fun, right? Because it was the gown and the this and the that and the. You know, everybody would collaborate, and, you know, there were just a routine. We'd have champagne and hors d' oeuvres for the team, and we'd play music, and you just sort of get ready. Cause it's special. It's a gown. And, you know, so we'd be getting ready in the salon. Then I get hair and makeup done. Then I go into my dressing room with Meredith. We put on the gown, and nobody. He would never see it. Right. And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown, right before we were getting on the elevator to go down for the official greet. And that's when he would see the look. And everybody would. You know, there's a look.

[Yanae Demtu]

There's just a look.

[Michelle Obama]

Trifecta. Everybody would come out and wait for him.

[Julie Wilson]

It's like the first look in, like, a wedding or something.

[Michelle Obama]

That's how it was. Every single. And again, would you get butterflies?

[Julie Wilson]

Like.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Julie Wilson]

Anticipating how he would see you?

[Michelle Obama]

Is he gonna say, this is so cute. He's gonna. You know, we all used to gush over him. They'd all just sit around and watch him. And then we get.

[Yanae Demtu]

Then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see, like, how does it build?

[Michelle Obama]

But he was very much a man. Like, so what does this mean? You know, if there was a long train or something fashiony hanging off that he didn't understand, he'd be like, is this supposed to be like this? You know, and it's like, dude, it's fashion. It's way above your pay grade.

[Julie Wilson]

It's like, don't worry about it.

[Michelle Obama]

You don't understand. You don't need to understand it. Right, Right. Just understand. It's fashion.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah. And he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle, put the braids in. Let the world know.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, he is always my. You know, he's like, you are beautiful no matter what you do. He's like, I don't even. I don't notice the difference in anything. So he has always been. Is always. Continues to be completely affirming. But he understands that women are different, that our. Our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do. He has watched the three women in his life and his mother and his sisters, you know. Yeah. And his mother in law, you know, he sees the work that we're required to put in. He respects it, he understands it, but it, you know, sometimes he wonders, you know, do you have to do all that? And it's like, dude, you're doing the most, dude. This fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval waiting. You know, this gown, you know, somebody.

[Julie Wilson]

Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation.

[Michelle Obama]

It's only value added, dude. It's only value added. I love that.

[Julie Wilson]

When you would step out on red carpets, are you like, I don't know, like, it's so interesting being a part of the public eye. Like, that whole collaboration for you to go out there, how much of it also is like, are you taking your hair into consideration? Right? Cause I think a lot of people is like, it's all about the gown. You go to the Met Gala, everyone's asking just about the clothing, right? Or going to red carpet, who are you wearing? But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl, I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges. They're like swirled. Like, look at those braids. How much of your hair is like, take into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet completely.

[Marseille Martin]

I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we, that we break down. I think it just, it only makes sense when, if there's a gown or if there's a streetwear kind of whatever, it has to fit, it has to make sense. It's telling the overall story.

[Michelle Obama]

Not just that and Marseille. Do you have fun? Is it fun for you?

[Marseille Martin]

I have fun.

[Michelle Obama]

I have fun.

[Marseille Martin]

I think that's like the triple Leo in me. Like, I have lots. I'm a triple Leo.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my goodness.

[Marseille Martin]

Oh, girl, I have lots of fun.

[Julie Wilson]

You like to show up and show out.

[Marseille Martin]

I like to show up and show out because that's just. I'm a visionary, I'm a creator. Like, that's just what I like to do.

[Julie Wilson]

And a storyteller, right? Like, her hair. Like, I love the history of our hair and even like braiding, right? And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair. They would put rice in our hair so we would have food where we, like this, like, ancestral lineage of our hair is so, like, deep and, like, strong and amazing. That, like, the fact that we can tell stories and everything we do, it's beautiful.

[Marseille Martin]

It tells a beautiful journey. And then I look at not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look at, like, Erykah Badu, I look at Jill Scott, I look at the women who just exude Jhene Aiko, just exude just a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair. And I'm like, wow. I think one pop culture, one, even Dochi Dochi has been killing it recently. My.

[Julie Wilson]

The overall look, you know, remember was it Saturday Night Live where she did the performance and her and all of her dancers were connected with the brain?

[Marseille Martin]

I think that was Stephen Colbert.

[Julie Wilson]

I think. Or Stephen Colbert.

[Marseille Martin]

Yeah. Late night show.

[Julie Wilson]

So amazing. They were moving and dancing with their hair connected to each other. Yeah, dope.

[Marseille Martin]

And that's what you mean by like, just the overall story that you're telling. It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together. So, yeah, I definitely think about it all day.

[Michelle Obama]

From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to growth in terms of how first we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us? I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture.

[Julie Wilson]

Absolutely. I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media, it allows us to curate too, what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration of that all. And we're allowed to. I mean, I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on, like, following folks because they're allowed to storytell and tell the world that we're beautiful and look at all the ways in which we're beautiful. We're obviously not a monolith. I. I have a belief that, you know, there was a. A few years ago back, we were having this whole, like, are you natural? Are you not like that whole, like, internal beef. And I was like, whatever. We are magical. Whether I'm giving 23 inch bust down.

[Michelle Obama]

That's right.

[Julie Wilson]

Or if I have a sky high afro. Like, it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without. Sure, there's gonna be input and trolls and that sort of thing, but you can kind of zone it out. And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and like, put the people in the magazines that you didn't see Michelle growing up, like, that is. I know that that is part of my power. I might not have a lot of, like, money and. And like fame and all of that, but, like, I'm very intentional when I'm writing. I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young women's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between black culture and beauty. And so I get to be very black. Black, black, black. Be black all the time and tell our stories. Right. So, like, that for me is really magical. And I am a half glass full girl. So I do believe we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, black women, like, come on, we can do anything. We are the creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is amazing. But we're all doing it, which I love, and I just love that our hair gets to be part of that storytelling.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah. I just want us to get to the point where it's all. All right.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, we're getting there. Yeah. That the choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's, like you said, natural extensions. What is it called? The beat down. What? Bust down. The bust down. You got that? Bust down. That's new.

[Marseille Martin]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

She don't do.

[Marseille Martin]

Straight back.

[Julie Wilson]

Straight whatever we want you about wearing straight backs. And it's like all of that is not like it's professional. It's beautiful. It's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think. It's not. And it is. And we get to be the ones to say, quiet that all down. We're beautiful. We're doing it. You eat. Please eat it up. Because.

[Michelle Obama]

And in this point in time, when it feels like they. There's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes more important for us to not let the. Not to lose ground on this. You know, and, you know, for the listeners of all races out there, you know, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that we understand that. We understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel beautiful just like they are. And that means how they go to school, when you see them on the bus, when they are your co workers sitting with you, just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or given some message that it's not. You know, our hair is really not a message of anything except this is just who we are. Maybe just today, maybe just for this one moment, we had this, you know, how much time we had today. We are more likely than not. Not trying to tell you anything other than, you know, this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment. Moment.

[Julie Wilson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, and we're going to need in this time, we're going to need a country of fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this, you know, and stand with us on this. And I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up. You know, we've made that progress.

[Yanae Demtu]

Like the difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing up in Marseille, just listening to you, being in the industry, being in dc, it's a little different for me. But listening to you and you just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted. And being under the public eye, you're just, you're already seeing how much progress we've made. Although at times I do feel like it's like, man, we still gotta fight this fight. We still, like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say, like, mm, I'm going for an interview, maybe I should straighten my hair. And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair.

[Michelle Obama]

And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah, Crown act, for people who aren't.

[Yanae Demtu]

Aware, Crown act protects women of color with textured hair against hair based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place locks, afros, any type of knots of any sort. And it's passed in only 28 states. States as of July of this year, 2025. And it's extremely important because I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived. And you hear stories, even when it comes down into the military protocols, of how we are, how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair, and in the workplace, how they're allowed to wear their hair. So the Crown act is really not just. Just talking about race, hair based discrimination, but it's also about education. So you were talking about a Roxine being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture. That is not the norm.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Yanae Demtu]

Today, still in 2025. And so it also is going into teaching texture education in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important as well.

[Julie Wilson]

Absolutely. It's so important. I really hope it gets passed federally, because going state by state is one thing, but if we could just make this a sweep that you cannot discriminate against textured hair protective styles. I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there or forfeit his match? Like, it's those sorts of things that are something we don't. We shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom, and we've talked about that a lot in this freedom of our styles. Freedom for you to be able to, like, move how you want it without your team. Like, freedom for our children to grow up and to be able to have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they, you know, they have to conform. Being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way. Like, we shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair just.

[Michelle Obama]

To live and thrive well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics.

[Julie Wilson]

I mean, but we're gonna get there, y'.

[Podcast Host 1]

All.

[Michelle Obama]

We're gonna.

[Julie Wilson]

We're gonna get there. We're gonna get there all together. We're, like, all.

[Yanae Demtu]

Twist to twist a little.

[Michelle Obama]

Dochi, I love you.

[Julie Wilson]

But, like, it just brings me. Do we all connect our hair right now?

[Marseille Martin]

Yes.

[Julie Wilson]

But, like, this is a great way to wrap it up. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this. I just feel like hair is just such this beautiful connector of all of us. And, like, you guys wear your crown so beautifully. Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear, like, how we think about our hair and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it. And we're gonna keep doing our part and, like, telling the stories and doing the things, and there is gonna be real change. I feel it. I feel it.

[Marseille Martin]

I mean, it's already starting.

[Yanae Demtu]

It's already starting.

[Julie Wilson]

It's already written.

[Michelle Obama]

So let's keep these conversations going.

[Julie Wilson]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

At all the kitchen table tables all throughout the land. Yeah. Thank you all.

[Julie Wilson]

Thank you, guys.

[Michelle Obama]

Amazing.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy, what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.