Avoiding Counterfeit Products This Holiday Season and Diving Into the World of Dupes with MCO Beauty

Summary

Gloss Angeles Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Avoiding Counterfeit Products This Holiday Season and Diving Into the World of Dupes with MCO Beauty
Hosts: Kirbie Johnson & Sara Tan
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the rising challenge of counterfeit beauty products during the holiday season and explores the fast-evolving world of beauty “dupes” (inexpensive products that closely mimic high-end originals). Kirbie and Sara, both seasoned beauty journalists, offer essential advice for shoppers, share personal experiences, and discuss the ethical and business ramifications of dupe-driven brands like MCO Beauty. The latter half includes lively debate on what innovation and “democratizing luxury” really mean, as well as a discussion on new sunscreen ingredient regulations.

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Main Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Holiday Counterfeit Surge: What to Watch Out For

• Why Now: The beauty industry is flooded with counterfeit products every holiday season ($5.4 billion lost annually; cosmetics are top 8 most seized counterfeit goods by law enforcement, per Personal Care Product Council).
• Risks: Using counterfeits can be dangerous (may contain unsafe or untested ingredients).
• Key Tips for Avoidance:
  • Buy from Trusted Retailers: Stick to the brand’s site or well-known retailers like Sephora and Ulta.
    • "We support and talk so much about Sephora and Ulta... you can trust." (Kirbie, 12:57)
  • Beware of Third-Party Marketplaces: Even on Amazon or TikTok Shop, verify the seller is official.
  • If It's Too Good to Be True…: Steep discounts on premium brands are almost always suspect.
    • "If a deal is too good to be true, it is too good to be true." (Sarah, 08:37)
  • Inspect Packaging and Reviews: Look for typos, off logos, or lack of reviews. Return frequency tags ("This product has been returned frequently" on Amazon) are red flags.
  • Patch Testing: When uncertain, patch test before using new products all over skin.

Notable Quotes

• "You’re putting these products on your face, lips, eyes. That is terrifying." (Sarah, 10:49)
• "I was very confused... I think I was sent a counterfeit product." (Kirbie, recounting a personal experience, 11:44)

Key Segment

• Counterfeit Dangers & Tips: 08:23–18:10

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2. The Dupe Economy: Spotlight on MCO Beauty

A New Kind of Beauty Giant

• MCO Beauty’s Model: A brand built entirely on creating near-identical "dupes" (products that imitate the packaging, appearance, and sometimes formula of cult favorites like Charlotte Tilbury, Glow Recipe, Milk Makeup, Dior, etc).
• Scale & Success:
  • #1 selling beauty brand in Australia, outselling Maybelline
  • In 1,500+ Kroger stores, nearly all US Targets, and Amazon
  • $400 million revenue (FY ending Mar 2025)
  • Acquired for roughly $650 million
• Aggression in Duping: MCO makes unabashed copies, provoking both lawsuits and admiration for bringing luxury looks to the masses at a lower cost.

Ethical & Business Debate

• Is It Innovation?:
  • Meredith Rojas (MCO CMO): "By actually making things accessible to more people... we’re providing a form of innovation." (25:26)
  • Kirbie: "I said it was lazy. And I said brand founders are pissed." (26:17; quoting herself from Cheryl Wischhover’s Bloomberg article)
• Comparison to Fashion:
  • Reference to Steve Madden, Zara, and the normalization of dupes in other retail sectors.
  • "I can't say sh*t" (Kirbie, on realizing she personally buys footwear dupes, 31:07–31:15)
• Where’s the Line?:
  • Both hosts agree that duping indie brands, not conglomerates, crosses an ethical line (31:07–32:00).
  • "That's kind of where, I think, you and I would be like... yeah." (Sarah, 31:54)

How Good Are the Dupes?

• Performance Can Vary:
  • “EMCO’s makeup seems to be more pigmented than some of what it’s copying... but shades aren’t always spot-on.” (Kirbie, 33:08)
  • Sometimes the sensory experience (like scent, formula nuance) doesn’t match—e.g., “red Kool Aid versus pressed watermelon.” (34:04)

Notable Quotes

• "This brand doesn’t give a f*ck, which is so interesting." (Kirbie, 26:40)
• "At the end of the day, people just want a good deal and a good product." (Sarah, 34:44)
• "Just because brands can, doesn’t mean they should… When I see dupes like this I just think it’s lazy." (Kirbie, 36:12, as quoted in Bloomberg)

Key Segment

• MCO Beauty & Dupe Culture: 20:12–46:08

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3. Sunscreen News: New FDA Regulations

• Legislation Update: US Congress passes a law that changes how sunscreen ingredients are evaluated:
  • Allows non-animal safety testing, acceptance of real-world safety data, and consideration of historical usage.
• Impact:
  • Could pave the way for faster, cheaper approval of new UV filters and possibly more innovative formulations in the US (seen as lagging behind Australia, Korea, and Europe).
• Cautious Optimism:
  • Implementation will take time; more changes are likely needed for true sunscreen innovation parity.

Notable Quotes

• “Hope that leaves me feeling positive and hopeful.” (Kirbie, 43:17)
• “We're not going to get the Australian version of Ultra Violette any time soon.” (Kirbie, 43:01)

Key Segment

• Sunscreen Legislation Update: 38:52–43:36

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Notable & Memorable Moments

“Dupe Hypocrisy” (30:58–31:15)

Kirbie’s self-reflection on being judgmental about beauty dupes while buying shoe dupes:

“I can’t say sh*t,” she laughs, referencing her own Steve Madden habit.

Miss Piggy Manifestation (03:07–05:32)

A lighthearted opening as the hosts plot to manifest Miss Piggy as a podcast guest—celebrating her as a millennial feminist and beauty muse.

Indie Brand Protection (31:07–32:00)

Sara & Kirbie draw the ethical line: it’s especially unjust to dupe indie brands who’ve poured their life into one viral product.

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Timestamps – Important Segments

• Holiday Counterfeit Product Dangers & Tips: 08:23–18:10
• MCO Beauty & The Dupe Debate: 20:12–46:08
  • MCO’s rise, legal issues, ethical quandaries, and the dupe economy
• Personal Experiences with Counterfeits: 11:30–12:16 (Kirbie’s Beauty of Joseon story)
• Sunscreen Legislation News: 38:52–43:36
• Indie Brands vs. Dupes Ethics: 31:07–32:00

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The Hosts’ Tone

Conversational, witty, and passionate—mixing industry expertise with pop-culture references and personal anecdotes. Their critique of the beauty industry is informed but playful, and they balance strong opinions with self-awareness.

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TL;DR

This episode arms you with crucial advice for avoiding dangerous counterfeit beauty products, delivers an impassioned discussion on the economics and ethics of “dupe” culture, with MCO Beauty as a case study, and offers cautious hope about new FDA rules on sunscreen ingredient approvals. Throughout, the hosts maintain a sharp, witty rapport, asking the hard questions: When does a dupe cross the line—and is making luxury accessible always worth it?

Transcript

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[Sarah]

Los angeles. Hi, kirby.

[Kirby]

Hi, sarah.

[Sarah]

Welcome to los angeles.

[Kirby]

So, by the time this comes out, Sarah and I will have seen Wicked for good. And since last year, we basically manifested the one night only on this podcast. And I have another thing that I would like to manifest for the next year, pending the production timeline. Ooh, Miss Piggy will be on this podcast.

[Sarah]

Oh, yes. We've said that before. You could.

[Kirby]

She's going on Los Angeles. Yeah, I'm not even asking. I'm telling Jim Henson. Her father. Yeah. Up in heaven.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Thou art in heaven.

[Sarah]

And her new mothers, Emma Stone, Jennifer.

[Kirby]

Lawrence and Emma Stone.

[Sarah]

We welcome them on the pod, too.

[Kirby]

Best. Best friends, more like it. I. I'm actually really curious. What did she say? She said that the idea came to her because she was like, what if Miss Piggy got cancelled?

[Sarah]

Huh? Which. Easy.

[Kirby]

She's like, horrendous to Kermy. Yeah, yeah, love.

[Sarah]

And we know.

[Kirby]

Okay, I said horrendous. I say horrendous. But then I am feeding into the patriarchy. But really, she's just telling this man what she needs and wants and he does not deliver. Yes.

[Sarah]

And we know that Holly in society loves to cancel a powerful woman with.

[Kirby]

With a.

[Sarah]

With a point of view.

[Kirby]

One hundo percent. So, Miss Piggy, it would be our. It would be moi's honor. It would be. When I talk to Quinn, I'm like, talk to her like Miss Piggy does.

[Sarah]

I actually, my brother and I were Kermit and Miss Piggy for Halloween one year, but it was like, when you look back at the costumes, by the.

[Kirby]

Way, back not that great, literally.

[Sarah]

Was the mask like a plastic mask? Yeah. But I love her. I can't wait. I can't wait till she comes on.

[Kirby]

I bought a prosthetic pig nose, Miss Piggy. And I just have it hanging out because I'm like, I'll save it for.

[Sarah]

A rainy Day next Kirby should be like, Jim Henson themed.

[Kirby]

Everyone comes as a Muppet.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Kirby]

Or something Muppet. Muppet related adjacent. Yes. Like in that universe.

[Sarah]

Yes. Elmo, Big Bird.

[Kirby]

So I had a similar thought for next year.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Kirby]

Around a different thing.

[Sarah]

Okay, well, don't spoil, like.

[Kirby]

I won't. I won't. But now it's like, maybe I need just Halloween party every Saturday.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kirby]

Of October. I was listening to Eyewitness Beauty because they came back today and because they'd been on, like, hiatus for a while. Had. And it was funny because they mentioned me and Nick and Annie and they were like, I just love when someone is just so earnestly passionate about something so, like, deeply uncool. Like Halloween. And I was dying.

[Sarah]

I was like, wait, they said your name?

[Kirby]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Oh, okay.

[Kirby]

I was like, yes, I am earnestly passionate about Halloween. It is deeply uncool. I don't do it for anyone except for myself.

[Sarah]

I don't think it's uncool.

[Kirby]

I think it's not maybe something that a lot of people really, like, go hog wild for. Pun intended, Miss Piggy. But yeah, I truly am on the. Like, I will do a whole PR thing around Ms. Piggy. Coming on Los Angeles. I need to know what her preferred fragrance is.

[Sarah]

Yep. What's on her writer?

[Kirby]

We could work with her and be like her in quotes to be like, okay, these are the questions we're asking. We want her to be a beauty girl.

[Sarah]

Well, imagine all of the potential partnerships she could have around this movie. Like, who do we think she is? Is she a Charlotte Tilbury girl?

[Kirby]

Oh, my God. Right? Char, I'm not kidding. Anyone on that team. Y' all better be on the horn with Jim Henson.

[Sarah]

I'm just imagining the vanity.

[Kirby]

You know, this is moi. It would be called, like, Moi's Hollywood Filter or whatever.

[Sarah]

Oh, my God. She will be the next Charlotte Tilbury ambassador.

[Kirby]

I got chills. I have chills thinking about this. Why do you think beauty girls specifically are so obsessed with Miss Piggy? Is it just something especially millennials like, I don't know if this is a Gen Z and younger thing. I don't even think Gen Alpha knows what the Muppets or who the Muppets are.

[Sarah]

I think because she was like a hard working feminist who liked to look.

[Kirby]

Pretty and she had amazing wigs.

[Sarah]

Amazing wigs she would always wear. Like, even her pajamas were fabulous with like a feather fur trim. You know, it was.

[Kirby]

I was looking for a fur trim thing recently that I was like, oh, just to Copy. Miss Piggy.

[Sarah]

I have so many Miss Piggy stickers in my phone. Just her expressions, especially the one where she's tired and she looks flustered.

[Kirby]

Miss Piggy is a Muppet baby.

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah.

[Kirby]

So freaking cute. Her and Fozzie. Oh, my God. I cannot.

[Sarah]

No. She's a true beauty girl through and through. She's a millennial hero, and we will have her on this podcast.

[Kirby]

It needs to happen. If she can't go anywhere else, where else she going to go?

[Sarah]

No, she's not going to go anywhere.

[Kirby]

It's like Today Show.

[Sarah]

Yes. Fair.

[Kirby]

Amy Poehler's good hang. Oh, Lost Colch. And then for the beauty contingent, us.

[Sarah]

What do you think? I don't think so, honey.

[Zyn Announcer]

It would be.

[Kirby]

I don't think so, honey. I don't think so, honey. Kermie not listening to me. Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

It's a whole rant about Kermie.

[Sarah]

Yeah, Kurumi.

[Kirby]

I do, I do. I did feel a little bad for Kermie, honestly, growing up.

[Sarah]

I was like, I know he's doing okay, though.

[Kirby]

But, like, he's. He.

[Sarah]

He loves her.

[Kirby]

He loves this woman. He loves her dearly, and he understands that a lot of the problems are his own making, so.

[Sarah]

Exactly.

[Kirby]

Okay, that's. I'm putting it out there. Roll back this tape in a year when she's here in this studio with us.

[Sarah]

I truly can't wait.

[Kirby]

Oh, my God. I will actually shed a tear. I'm not kidding. Annie on Iwaness, Beauty was saying that during the pandemic, she was walking in New York and saw Sesame street filming and said she didn't have her glasses on and saw Big Bird on a street corner.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kirby]

I was like. I would have probably broken down in tears immediately. Like, how do you just, like, turn a corner and see Big Bird?

[Sarah]

No, I would be unwell.

[Kirby]

No, no. I've always wanted to go to Sesame street, you know? Me, too.

[Sarah]

Me too.

[Kirby]

Like, my dream.

[Sarah]

My dream.

[Kirby]

Okay. We also want to shout out a fantastic group of women from ucla.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Kirby]

Orym.

[Sarah]

The Orym Cosmetics Club.

[Kirby]

Orym Cosmetics Club. Yes. Love following them on social media.

[Sarah]

I know. Oh, my gosh. They just released some, like, really cute photos of the board.

[Kirby]

It's such aesthetic. Yeah.

[Sarah]

It was giving cat's eye.

[Kirby]

It's giving branding cat's eye. So they are obviously a college group of women that love cosmetics and want to learn more about the industry and invited Sarah and myself to come and talk about the POD and our jobs as beauty reporters.

[Sarah]

And they had such Good questions.

[Kirby]

Yeah, it was, it was a really, really fun time. I honestly wish we would have dictated it to be two hours so we could have been an hour of them asking us questions and then us doing a focus group for an hour. Like, everybody get out your Ben next time we're making you fill out this survey.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it's like midterms or whatever. They were studying for their tests and it was also like dinner time. So they were probably, they were all super attentive, very ambitious, diverse group of young women. Ye, yeah, it was awesome. Amazing questions. And it's always so heartwarming to be able to speak to like the next generation, especially because we know it's going to be in good hands.

[Kirby]

It was also cool to hear that there were younger women, like freshmen who are studying chemistry. Yeah. And are thinking about how that applies. Or economics.

[Sarah]

Totally. Yeah.

[Kirby]

Really, really cool.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Exciting. Thank you guys for having us.

[Kirby]

All right, so this is holiday shopping season, in case you were not getting served with an ad every three posts on Instagram or TikTok. And we just want to remind everybody that counterfeits are rampant this time of year.

[Sarah]

I mean, I mean if, if a deal is too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

[Kirby]

100%. There are some times I get DMs being like, have you heard of this? And then I look at it and then I'm like, what?

[Sarah]

Yeah, what is this?

[Kirby]

Yeah, where did you find this?

[Sarah]

Yeah. How did this product end up at that retailer?

[Kirby]

Right. Or that product is not sold right there.

[Sarah]

Or I've never heard of that product from that, that brand. That's like, that's a made up product.

[Kirby]

Right. Or I'll get sent videos with like this person's talking about that they got this product and it was all wrong. And then you look closer and then the packaging is a little off and you're like, they probably bought it on a third party resale site and it's probably not the real thing. So. The Personal Care Product Council is an association that focuses on product safety, quality and innovation. I've worked with PCPC in the past. Not worked with them, but they have this annual conference conference that they do every year at the breakers in Florida, Palm Beach. It's like very fabulous. And a lot of brands go there. When I was at popsugar, I would go to present my shows and potentially have brands buy in as a sponsor. Have you been before?

[Sarah]

No, I have not.

[Kirby]

Yeah, it's really, really interesting. You learn a lot about the industry this season. They Want to help everybody, quote, buy no lie, which is a tagline for a campaign that they are running to really protect the consumer from counterfeit products. And we are proudly partnering with them to spread the word about counterfeit cosmetics and personal care products. So we talk often on this podcast about how Beauty is a $500 billion industry. PCPC reports that $5.4 billion is lost each year to counterfeit sellers. And out of all of these counterfeit products, cosmetics ranks in the top eight of the most frequently seized products by law enforcement agencies.

[Sarah]

Wow. That's crazy.

[Kirby]

Kind of bonkers.

[Sarah]

And it's also, I think, I mean, I don't think it is the scariest because even if, let's say you accidentally bought a fake purse or a top, it's like clothing. Right?

[Kirby]

Right.

[Sarah]

But like you're putting these products on.

[Kirby]

Your face, lips, eyes.

[Sarah]

Yes. I mean, that is terrifying.

[Kirby]

Right. So, of course, you know, there's the obvious. Counterfeits are not good for business in terms of the economy. There's so many different aspects to that.

[Sarah]

Totally.

[Kirby]

But like you mentioned, they can be seriously harmful for your health. So how do you know if something is real or. Or not? There are a few things to consider. Sarah and I are going to walk you through a few things and I.

[Sarah]

Feel like if you are shopping via social media, whether it is Instagram or TikTok, like, you are very likely to stumble upon a counterfeit seller.

[Kirby]

Remember when I talked to you about Beauty of Joseon and I was like, I do not understand why y' all love.

[Sarah]

I know. And I was so confused.

[Kirby]

I was like, this is horrible. Yeah, white chalk paste.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

I'm like white cast free. Clearly not like I. I was very.

[Sarah]

You clearly got a bad batch or something happened.

[Kirby]

Something happened. I think I was sent a counterfeit product.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

So focus on where you buy. Like Sarah said, social media platforms are rampant with fake products. You want to buy from your reputable retailers, places that you could physically, if you can physically go in store, you would see those brands there or they appear on that brand's website as a verified partner. The thing that's a little hard with that though is there are marketplaces that have verified brand pages.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

But then also have third party sellers.

[Sarah]

Right. And it's very difficult to tell the difference between the two.

[Kirby]

Like when we talk about Sephora and Ulta, if you see something on Sephora's website, you know it's supposed to be there. Right. I think that that's why there's a peace of mind when you shop on the app or sephora.com with Ulta, they now also have a marketplace, but the brands have to apply and they have to be approved so that anybody can sign up and be on Ulta's website. So if you go on Ulta's website, you're going to see a lot more brands there than you would in store.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

And same for Sephora. But there's a peace of mind there knowing that these retailers are overseeing really who is. There's a barrier to entry.

[Sarah]

Exactly. Right. Yeah.

[Kirby]

So that's kind of why we support and talk so much about Sephora and Ulta on this podcast. Because we know that if we direct you there, you can trust.

[Sarah]

Yes. You'll get a legitimately verified product.

[Kirby]

Yes. But if you are shopping on a marketplace, because there's many of them, you want to make sure that you're going to the verified brand page. And typically it'll have some type of check mark or some kind of verification on that page that dictates. Okay, this is legit.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

This is not from some rando that's trying to sell back stock that they somehow acquired. Stole whatever it is.

[Sarah]

Exactly. Okay, the next one is, as we mentioned before, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. So if you are seeing something, a product that you love from a brand that you love on a resale site for a lot less than what it typically is selling for, and you know, a lot of times, unless you are buying it during like a big sale at like Sephora, Ulta and Nordstrom, like, a lot of times these products aren't like, first, like, they're not discounted. And so if you do see a product that you love for a cheaper price, it's probably not really the real deal.

[Kirby]

Yeah, you obviously there can be exceptions like Amazon Prime Day or whatever, but you definitely, if you just see a random ad pop up in your feed and it's like Pat McGrath on discount for whatever, I would be very sus.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Kirby]

Because you got to think about these brands. Like, the reason why maybe some luxury brands are so covetable is because they do have a barrier to entry with their price point. So if you are seeing them egregiously low, like $20 for something that's usually 90.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

It better say going out of business sale.

[Sarah]

Totally.

[Kirby]

Or something.

[Sarah]

Exactly.

[Kirby]

You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh. I'll never forget that one episode from Keeping up with the Kardashians when they go to Downtown L. A and Santee Alley and see all the counterfeit Kylie cosmetics products and Mac and like, so many. It's crazy.

[Kirby]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Like, there are companies that exist solely to make these counterfeit products.

[Kirby]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Which is so wild to me. So, yeah, we really have to be extra, extra careful, especially if you're purchasing online.

[Kirby]

Read the reviews. I think now people really put stock in reviews. But there was a point where, you know, you really couldn't get on a website and read a ton of reviews. So the reviews, though, can often indicate if something is real or not. Because, you know, if someone's like, I received a counterfeit product, this is not real, or shows a picture of it, then it kind of deters me from even wanting to, like, check it out. Totally.

[Sarah]

Or if something even has, like one review or no reviews.

[Kirby]

Yes.

[Sarah]

That's usually a red flag.

[Kirby]

That is a big one. I would also say if you are on a marketplace, Amazon, for example, they have that product has been returned frequently. Label.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Yeah. Which I think has been so helpful.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh. Same.

[Kirby]

And then inspect the packaging. There are dupes, which we are going to talk about later in this episode, and those are cheaper versions of original products from real brands.

[Sarah]

Right, Right.

[Kirby]

But then there's fake product, which is counterfeit. And if you do buy a product from a site and you're not confident in it and it feels like something's off, listen to your intuition. Go look at videos. There's plenty of them. Now, like, I feel like if you try to look for a brand that you're maybe not familiar with and you can't find any videos of the product, then that's a red flag in itself. But usually if you buy something from a name brand and then you're like, this. This is not what I expected. And then you find a video, you can kind of inspect the packaging to be like, okay, this actually looks different from what this person has. Is this real or not? Did they do a brand refresh?

[Sarah]

Right. I feel like looking at the logo, especially if there's some sort of art or the font, it's like you can tell if something's off.

[Kirby]

Totally. So kind of use that as a barometer for red flags. And then if the product does seem fine, but you're still sus. You're like, I. Yeah, something still feels off about this because you didn't buy it from a place that you feel totally comfortable with. Test a patch on your arm or behind your ear before applying it all over your face. Hair, whatever. I mean, God forbid you bought a hair product and then put it all in your hair and Then your hair fell out. No life changing.

[Sarah]

I do not wish that on you.

[Kirby]

No.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Absolutely freaking lutely. Not.

[Sarah]

Like, put an eyeliner, mascara, you go not blind. Let's say you have conjunctivitis or something.

[Kirby]

Yeah, yeah. We don't wish that upon anybody.

[Sarah]

So just please be careful.

[Kirby]

Yeah. I know that it's so tempting, especially this time of year to want to get that major discount and like, they have flash deals all the time and so you have a limited amount of time to buy something. So there's a frenzy. But I would just caution everyone to take your time and you don't want to waste money on something that could potentially be harmful to you or is not the real deal. And then you're disappointed because it's not the real thing.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Has this been a big problem with TikTok Shop?

[Kirby]

I was looking into this because we're working on our Black Friday Cyber Monday episode and I was like, what kind of TikTok Shop deals are they? There. There are brands on there that are verified.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Kirby]

So it's kind of similar to Amazon in that respect where it's like, for me personally, I'm probably like, for the name brand stuff, the stuff that I am like distinctly looking for, I'm probably only going to buy from a verified seller.

[Sarah]

Right. Or if like you, like, we know, you know, a lot of brands now will launch an exclusive product on TikTok Shop. But you'll see very clearly on their social media pages that that's like what they're doing.

[Kirby]

Yep.

[Sarah]

But I just made my first TikTok shop purchase, so I'm.

[Kirby]

I didn't.

[Sarah]

It wasn't beauty, but I'm like nervous.

[Kirby]

Because I'm like, oh, my God. I know.

[Sarah]

I hope it gets there. I hope it gets to my house.

[Kirby]

Yeah, same fingers crossed. I know it's weird.

[Sarah]

It just seems like too, too easy.

[Kirby]

Totally.

[Sarah]

I don't know. I'll have to go through this list and follow. Follow our tips. Glams. You know how much Kirby and I love Tatcha and the founder Vicky Sai. If you haven't heard our interviews with her, do that after this. On the show, she's shared how Tatcha is all about building tiny rituals that restore joy, which is very much needed in the year that is 2025. The dewy skin cream is that feeling in a jar. It's a luxuriously comforting moisturizer that plumps fine lines and seals in moisture for Tatcha's signature dewy glow. Fun fact. It is the brand's bestseller, A Dewy Skin Cream, is sold every 30 seconds. In a clinical study, 100% of the panelists showed immediate improvement in plumpness, suppleness, and radiance in just two weeks. It is transformative Japanese skincare that nurtures the skin and, and the mind. And it's why we love it so, so much. The best part is you can enjoy 15% off your first purchase at tatcha.com with code GLOSSANGELIS15.

[Kirby]

Let's get into two pieces of news. Cheryl Wishover, who has a great substack called whatever, nevermind a beauty veteran.

[Sarah]

Reporter veteran.

[Kirby]

If you remember anything from the deciem files with their founder, I mean, she was on the front lines reporting all of the stuff going on with that brand. It was crazy. So she's back in the reporting game. We're so happy. And she wrote this story for Bloomberg called Duped. And it's specifically a story about EM Co Beauty. Sarah, what do you know about. About EM Co Beauty?

[Sarah]

Okay. I think we briefly spoke about EM Co, or maybe we were going to, and we didn't end up doing it. But they are a beauty business built on creating dupes. Like, some of their products look exactly like Charlotte Tilbury. Just like, they don't even try to dance around making it look any different. Like, we know that ELF obviously is really good at creating dupes. I feel like Emco cares even less about, you know, like, I can't even imagine how they're, like, how much they spend on their legal fees.

[Kirby]

Oh, well, I don't know that number, but it's talked about in this story that Cheryl wrote. So even in the beginning, how is this legal? So Michaela notoriously has this video where she has this acrylic tray, and on one side are all the actual products, and on the other side are all of the dupes from EM Co. Carol outlines how big of a brand this is. I did not know about this brand, I think, until maybe 2023, because I remember Kensington the influencer. She was at Coachella and did a branded partnership with them.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Kirby]

And I was like, what the hell is this brand from Australia? Like, it kind of came out of nowhere. And I think they just came in guns blazing. Yeah. During Coachella. But in this story on Bloomberg, Sheryl writes that it's the number one selling beauty brand in Australia. It outsells drugstore products such as Maybelline. It entered the U.S. oh, April 2024. So last year.

[Sarah]

Yes, I think that's when we talked about it.

[Kirby]

Okay. It's carried in about 1500 Locations of Kroger grocery stores.

[Sarah]

Wow.

[Kirby]

And almost all of Target's 2,000 stores.

[Sarah]

Wow.

[Kirby]

In Kroger, it's risen to become one of the top five cosmetics brands. And it's become a Target bestseller in less than a year. And they sell on Amazon.com and its own direct to consumer site. And it's been released in the UK in February 2025. I think I completely missed this. It says Australian pharmaceutical company DBG Health Property Limited purchased Sydney based EMCO at a $1 billion valuation. So around $650 million. And DBG owns the largest generic medication manufacturer in the country. Cheryl notes, which are generic drugs. And she says if. What are generics if not dupes? So that makes sense.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

EMCO's revenue for the fiscal year that ended in March 2025 was $400 million, which is bonkers.

[Sarah]

That's wild.

[Kirby]

And I mean, so clearly this is a brand that is hitting, as the children would say.

[Sarah]

Do you know anyone personally who uses Emco?

[Kirby]

No. I do think this brand is targeted towards a younger generation for the reasons you can expect. Meaning we're giving them exactly what they want that they see at the higher entry point. Yeah. For cheap.

[Sarah]

But it is beyond just packaging like formula, when you put it side by side, it's pretty good dupe.

[Kirby]

People are saying that it's nearly identical. So what I love about Cheryl is that she really went into this obviously, like, why wouldn't she? But people are searching for better priced beauty. And she says that 72% of US consumers say affordability is the primary appeal of dupes. Data from research firm mintel shows that 53% of American women age 18 to 34 have purchased beauty dupes. I'm trying to think if I've purchased a beauty dupe. I don't think I have. I mean, probably like without knowing.

[Sarah]

Yeah, yeah. We use ELF products all the time.

[Kirby]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. But I'm. I don't think I'm seeking out these products. Like when I go to Sephora or Ulta.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Like I know what I'm getting.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

Like I want the real deal.

[Sarah]

Totally.

[Kirby]

My, you know, that's. And that's my prerogative, in my humble opinion.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

The thing about Emko that I think makes it so different from Elf is that like, to your point, it has embraced the dupe identity. Yeah. It's like, no, we're not even trying to hide the fact that like, this is a dupe of the flawless filter.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Or the Bronzing drops or the Estee Lauder and repair, which made me laugh out loud when I read this story, because I was like, do the children really want advanced night repair?

[Sarah]

I mean, they don't, but there are definitely adults who, if. If you told them it's basically the same ingredients.

[Kirby]

Why not?

[Sarah]

Why not?

[Kirby]

So it says Emco's extreme duping has resulted in legal challenges, with two active lawsuits against it and two settled ones. The company has always been unapologetic, even defiant by its methods. And this is a quote from Meredith Rojas, chief marketing officer of North America at Vita Corp. Which is the subsidiary that oversees M Co Beauty. Essentially, she says, by actually making things accessible to more people in different socioeconomic brackets, were providing a form of innovation, which initially I was like, I get what you're trying to say in terms of, like, a business model. Yeah. But not in terms of product.

[Sarah]

Right, right. Like technology. Like, how is it innovative to just literally copy and paste?

[Kirby]

Yeah. Right. Which is essentially why in this very story, I said it was lazy.

[Sarah]

You said more than that.

[Kirby]

I did. I said it was lazy. And I said, brand founders are pissed. Those are the two quotes that Cheryl included from our, like, 30 minute long.

[Sarah]

Which are valid points.

[Kirby]

They are valid because they're true. But, you know, that quote kept me reading because I was like, okay, I want to figure out what's going on with this brand, because, like, most brands try to play nice with other brands.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

This brand doesn't give a fuck, which is so interesting.

[Sarah]

I'm like, that doesn't seem very, like, I don't know, Australian. I feel like it's like a very.

[Kirby]

American thing to do. To do that. Well, okay. Fair, Fair. She says that Em Co stands out from brands like Elf, Milani, Essence, Nicks, and even Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's does the dupes.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh. My sister was like, hey, Trader Joe's has a really good home court dupe.

[Kirby]

Yeah. This.

[Sarah]

This past week, I was like, what?

[Kirby]

Really?

[Sarah]

And I was like, what does Courtney Cox think about this?

[Kirby]

I mean, whatever, you know, it is what it is. But they said that they're democratizing luxury. I think.

[Sarah]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Kirby]

Which is. They are.

[Sarah]

Especially in this economy. I get it. I just. I just don't know how they're gonna get away with it.

[Kirby]

So they said that Beauty consumers don't want something that's a payless version. They don't want something in a bottle or in a package that looks and feels cheap. We think that just having the Formula be similar isn't really enough. I think in my mind some of this packaging is like protected in a way.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Which they go into. This is the part of the story though, that kind of changed my mind on em co. Not that I'm saying I like will become a devout fan, but I said, okay, Kirby, you're kind of being a hypocrite in this respect. So you, you have to. Because when Cheryl and I spoke, I was like, I just don't get this brand.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

Like, this brand is not sexy to me.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Obviously I have privileged in different point of view.

[Sarah]

Yep.

[Kirby]

I get sent a ton of products. I know a lot of these founders.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

I know they've worked their asses off. There's like a personal tie there.

[Sarah]

So we just had our episode talking about why we love luxury beauty brands for all the different reasons.

[Kirby]

Yes. So it is hard for me to see like some people who I have seen, like really put in the work to get these types of products on the map and then just see them be copied. But it says dupes, which most people would simply call knockoffs are rampant in retail. Think Zara and its Runway copies Quince's versions of everything from away hard shell suitcases to cult supplement AG1, which is hilarious.

[Sarah]

Who duped AG1?

[Kirby]

Quince. Apparently they make food. I had no idea. Honestly. Interesting beauty dupes go back to at least the 80s where designer imposter fragrances announced its source of inspiration right on its cans of body mist. If you like Giorgio, you'll love Primo. We were too young to know this, but I do remember the designer imposter.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Perfume lineage and Clueless. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Which I am just now admitting. I thought that was just like a fun term she made up. I didn't know that was a real thing. Designer imposter.

[Sarah]

That's funny.

[Kirby]

But she talks about like Steve Madden. Yeah.

[Sarah]

I mean, Steve Madden. Some of the styles that they copy. I'm like, how? How? I mean, this man went to jail, but not even. Not even for that.

[Kirby]

No, he didn't go to jail for duping.

[Sarah]

But like, they're like Hermes sandals. Like, I'm like, what? That's wild. There's no shame.

[Kirby]

Okay. As a person who fucks up every pair of heels she has within like two or three uses of wearing them. Yeah, I just have a. Like, I have a pair of really nice Dior.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Shoes. Gucci shoes. I can't remember the other designer, but I have like five pairs of really nice designer shoes.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

That I keep in the boxes in the dust bags and I bust them out for very special locations. Yeah. I. I just know I'm going to destroy a heel. I am a clumsy person. I'm constantly shuffling my feet. I. I destroy things.

[Sarah]

No, I get it. I feel the same way.

[Kirby]

Steve is really my guy. No, I saw this comparison.

[Sarah]

Dolce Vita, Sam Edelman, all those brands like.

[Kirby]

Yes. Dolce Vita too.

[Sarah]

I. I have a lot of respect for them because they're. You are able to participate in the fashion, in the trends and not break your budget. I get it.

[Kirby]

Totally. And I don't even think I'm looking when I go to Steve. Yeah. I don't even know what he's referencing half the time.

[Sarah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kirby]

Because I am not in the thick of the fashion. I'm just like, these look cute. I'm going to buy them. Yeah. This comparison in this story was. I was like, you know what? Touche. Touche to Shay. Because it took me out of it for a minute and I was like, okay, I get it, I get it. Yeah. Granted, I also get people want things for cheap. Like, I'm not dumb.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

You know, of course, I'm not like that dense. Yeah. But that point, just mentioning Steve's name. Yeah. I was like, okay, I can't say shit.

[Sarah]

I think the part that would piss you off and myself is if em co duped an indie brand, like a small brand that, you know, they have, like you said, poured all of their money and you know, effort and time into creating this one product that went viral and that's holding up their business and then Emco goes in and dupes them.

[Kirby]

That's a great point that.

[Sarah]

Because like we've seen that with fashion, like all these videos that I watch that like, you know, these like small independent designers and then like Shein goes and like literally copies the same exact, like even uses their images.

[Kirby]

I mean.

[Sarah]

Yeah. It happens so, so often.

[Kirby]

It is rampant. So I agree with you when it comes to the indie stuff, like these bigger brands that like have sold already and stuff like. I get it. I totally get it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

But yes, you're right. That's kind of where I think you and I would be like. Yeah. So the story goes on to say that some dupes are dupier than others. Fragrances, for example, usually can't be trademarked. They're also easier to copy because with the right equipment, formulators can quantify the amount of a perfumes individual constituents. Says Ramya, our girl, this one often our girl, a Cosmetic chemist and founder of the hair care company Compressed Beauty. That doesn't mean it'll smell exactly the same, because the raw materials used by the duper might be cheaper. Substitutes are purposely more diluted. And that's also, like, gets into why it says fragrance.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

In perfumes that now has been commodified for clean beauty. To claim that they're poisoning us or whatever they want to say. But skincare and makeup are much harder to dupe, according to Cheryl. So she says although ingredients are listed on the packaging, the amounts can be. Can't be easily surmised. And there are variously priced versions of ingredients, such as hyaluronic acid, which may perform differently. And then Ramya says the idea of dupes is to be cheaper even to the company that's making it. So a lot of times there's a compromise on some of the ingredients.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

There's also things to consider, like pigment loads.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Finishes. Or, like, long wear, all that stuff.

[Kirby]

She says that Emco's makeup seems to be more pigmented than some of what it's copying and that the shades aren't always spot on. And to some people, having more pigment might be great, but there are products that are specifically created for the pigment load to be so precise so that you can build it.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Kirby]

So you may be like, well, I didn't like the dupe, so I'm not gonna try the original.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

And you're like, but actually, that dupe, it doesn't even serve the purpose of the original.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

It says sometimes it can smell different too. In a comparison between an Emco serum and its Glow recipe counterpart. For example, the scent is red Kool Aid versus the subtle fresh pressed watermelon. And then the story goes on to kind of give a background on Emko Beauty, which I was not really familiar with, but I was like, okay, this girl's girl bossing. Good for her. And. And explains, like, how this company, in terms of, like, social context rose to the top. Because now it's like a badge of honor to find a good dupe.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Where people are like, we don't have to spend money. We use aloe vera instead of the.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

Whatever primer.

[Sarah]

Right. You know, especially, like, with TikTok and Instagram, it's like those reels or those videos are the ones that, like, go viral, right?

[Kirby]

Yep.

[Sarah]

And, like, they'll tell us. Like, people will tell us all the time. It's like, oh, my God, I watched this video where this girl found this viral or this girl found this dupe. For whatever product. Like, is it good? I'm like, I don't. I don't know. I haven't tried it.

[Kirby]

No, same. Yeah. I feel like I'm often like, some of y' all are so in the weeds on social and I'm really focused. I think you. You and I both obviously are more focused on, like, the business side of things.

[Sarah]

Totally.

[Kirby]

I'm not necessarily pitch dupes.

[Sarah]

Right. But at the end of the day, people just want a good deal and a good product.

[Kirby]

So I'll end on this. It says that so many beauty products are so even unintentionally because there aren't enough distinct categories or truly unique formula variations go around. Fair. We've said this before, and Rojas says everything has been done and redone and remixed, so there's only so many different types of products on the market.

[Sarah]

Wow.

[Kirby]

Which is, I think, is kind of her excuse as to why Emco isn't really doing anything that bad is. I will say I do think the packaging thing is lazy. Like, I get that it's a marketing strategy to literally copy and paste the packaging in order to sell something, but for me. And I also just want to say too, like, I know people listening are like, kirby, on that Lashify episode, like you were saying, like, why didn't Sahara just make a cheaper version of Lashify so people could have an entry point and then eventually want to upgrade to her product? And I think that's kind of my point too. Like, I think that there is a place for stuff like this, like, cheaper price. And I don't think it's. Dupes are necessarily an all around bad thing. Yeah. You know, for this business, for this industry. But I just. She ends. I'm like, cheryl, you could have ended on anything else. She's like, but just because brands can doesn't mean they should quote. When I see dupes like this, I just think it's lazy. Johnson, the beauty podcaster, says of em, go. I'm like, fuck.

[Sarah]

That's how she ends the story.

[Kirby]

Well, she ends with a quote from Rojas that's just like, we're giving the beauty consumer what they want. Which at the end of the day, that's the only job a brand has.

[Sarah]

Right? Right.

[Kirby]

To make money and to give the consumer what they want. So in that regard, they're doing it, but.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Kirby]

But like, it.

[Sarah]

It does make you wonder, like, if they did try to be a little bit more creative in the packaging or where whatever it may be, maybe it was like they even tried to make it better. Like, they tried to dupe it, but then added something else to make it better.

[Kirby]

To me, this is just like peak consumerism.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Right. And I think that if you can do something that's truly innovative, why not? Why? Why not?

[Sarah]

If you're making. If you made $400 million in a.

[Kirby]

Few months, like, I just don't know how this brand. I mean, I guess it is a winning strategy because ELF does something very similar, although they do have their own products as well. Right. But in my head, initially, I'm like, well, how are you going to grow your fan base by just duping the next thing that comes out? Like, you're kind of like, waiting for the next big thing before you can make your move.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

I think the only way this company can keep growing at the speed of light is to eventually look into innovation on their own side of things.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

And then I wonder who will start duping them.

[Sarah]

Right. So much. So many questions. We'll wait and see.

[Kirby]

If you have tried Em Co Beauty, I'd love to hear from you. I want to know, like, are maybe we go identical?

[Sarah]

Maybe we should go and, like, shop. Let's go to Target.

[Kirby]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Pick some up.

[Kirby]

Yeah. I'm really curious. What's a brand that you would take to the streets for if they duped.

[Sarah]

Like, any of our friends?

[Kirby]

If they duped Half magic, I would, like, maybe riot.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard, though, now, too, because it's like, even, for example, like, Amy Lou and her SOS spray.

[Kirby]

Oh, yeah. There's so many.

[Sarah]

There's so many.

[Kirby]

Now and then. Now I see people being like, oh, I picked up this hypochlorous acid spray at Target. I'm like, oh, okay, great. Like, I think I even texted you. I was like, I just saw a magic molecule at Target.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Personal day has their own hypochlorous acid mist. It's. Yeah. It's crazy. I'm trying to think here.

[Kirby]

I mean.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it's like people like that were like, donnie, where you know that she is literally busting her ass. Yeah. Ass.

[Kirby]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah. I wouldn't touch it.

[Kirby]

Okay, so we have some good. I think this is good news. But when I was reading the post, I was like, I don't know if this necessarily is going to change anything. And I'll explain why after we talk about it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Do you want to intro this?

[Sarah]

Sure. Okay. So from our friend Tony, known as Capricornium on Instagram, posted earlier today that the U.S. has updated the FDA sunscreen requirements when Kirby sent this to me. I said, hallelujah. And then I started reading it and I was like, okay, I need to, I need like an hour to process everything. So he says, Congress has passed new legislation updating the existing requirements for sunscreen to be approved by the fda. Fda? Previously, the law required extensive safety and efficacy data from animal testing. But the new law allows for alternative testing methods and real world safety data to be used as part of the comprehensive evaluation on approving new active ingredients for sunscreens. It also updates the sunscreen final administrative order to account for historical safety data of previously approved active ingredients. So at, at first glance, like you said, exciting, right?

[Kirby]

Like, exciting initially because he posts and it says us updates the FDA sunscreen requirements. And everyone's like, oh my God, finally. But then you're like, you're reading it and it's like, okay, what's really going to change here? I think the big thing is the non clinical testing and being able to.

[Sarah]

You no longer have to do animal testing.

[Kirby]

Right? That's a huge one. And then being able to account for historical data regarding the safety of sunscreen active ingredients like avobenzone, octocrylene, stuff like that. Because as Tony mentions, he's like, this data, like adverse event reports, real world evidence and past studies from decades of safe usage of these ingredients can be considered for approval, which I think opens things up a lot more and maybe perhaps we can start seeing more filters. Yeah, it's like, well, not necessarily this.

[Sarah]

I think this new ingredients.

[Kirby]

Yes. So that was the thing he said. He obviously says it's like a huge step for us and that.

[Sarah]

Right, okay. So, yes, so he says that it will be easier for newer UV filters to get approved by the fda, though it is still not a quick or easy process. Right.

[Kirby]

And we talked about the introduction of a potential new filter, which I am not going to try to say because I truly effed that up the last time in 2026. And then I went to Beauty Connect and was talking to different brand founders, suppliers, just people in general about that. And they were like, I think people are like way more excited about this than they should be. Like, they were just like, we're not.

[Sarah]

Gonna see it for like a very long time.

[Kirby]

I maybe that. But then also they were just like, I don't think people understand the hurdles. Interesting that this is going to, it's just going to be a lot of. It's going to be a long time coming, essentially, is what they said. Okay, so to Tony's point, yes, like not testing on animals. Absolutely love that. Being able to have other factors considered within sunscreen in general will be huge. But. Oh, this is the other thing that I thought was important to take away. He mentions something called the fao, which is the final administrative order and it's the sunscreen rulebook, essentially. And then there's the term gross, which is generally recognized as safe and effective. He says that updating the FAO to include historical safety data is huge too, and could potentially restore the gross status of the 12 organic quote unquote chemical filters that lost this in 2019. And that includes ingredients like avobenzone, homosalate, octisalate, octinoxate, octocrylene and oxybenzone.

[Sarah]

That's good news. This is, I mean, again, I think net good. Yeah.

[Kirby]

But I'm not like our lives are going to change.

[Sarah]

Right?

[Kirby]

We're going to get the Australian version of Ultraviolet right? In the US Anytime soon.

[Sarah]

Right. Or like this comment. Does this mean we will have access to the same ingredients used in Korean sunscreen here in the United States? And Tony replied, potentially. They still need to go through the approval process, but this makes it easier and cheaper to do so, so more manufacturers will be incentivized to do it.

[Kirby]

Okay, okay. Okay. Hope that leaves me feeling positive and hopeful.

[Sarah]

We are hopeful.

[Kirby]

Why is the US so behind? Like, this is absurd. This is ridiculous.

[Sarah]

I know. It's pretty wild.

[Kirby]

It's like we're like, please.

[Sarah]

I know. We just want.

[Kirby]

Can we please have a good sunscreen.

[Sarah]

With like the statistics of the amount of skin cancer and melanoma.

[Kirby]

I know.

[Sarah]

It's like, like you would think.

[Kirby]

Bonkers dot com. All right, let us know about Emco. I really. Okay, tell us like three products we should pick up from Emco.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Because chances are we've probably tried the OG version of them. We should just reach out to Emco and be like, what are the top three selling SKUs you have and dying to know. I. I would guess probably the dupe of the Hollywood Flawless filter.

[Sarah]

The dupe of Glow recipe which they mentioned perhaps.

[Kirby]

Oh, right. The stew drops and then milk's primer. Right.

[Sarah]

God, Even the lipstick.

[Kirby]

No, no. It's crazy. Are you looking?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Kirby]

Em Co Beauty. Yeah.

[Sarah]

And also it's. Oh, wow, the milk makeup. They really.

[Kirby]

I do understand why Charlotte went so hard against dupes though, because they really did just know.

[Sarah]

They were like, we are copying and.

[Kirby]

We are riding your coatt into the sunset and going to build a whole brand off of that.

[Sarah]

Also, I'm sorry, but like this Dior blush dupe. You're buying the Dior blush because it's Dior?

[Kirby]

Because it's Dior.

[Sarah]

It says Dior imprinted or embossed whatever in the blush. I'm not buying the typical one.

[Kirby]

I do love the Dior blush, but I. Exactly. I buy it also because of the Dior.

[Sarah]

It's so pretty. I don't want to use it. I'm sorry.

[Kirby]

Yeah, I'm, like, looking on this. It's like a. It's like. Oh, Sol de Janeiro. Oh, Charlotte Tilbury's eyeshadow. Oh, too. Face mascara benefit. Yeah. I mean, I just also. We talk so much about, like, how people buy into the brand story, and it's like, this brand literally has no story, except for duping.

[Sarah]

How do you sleep at night?

[Kirby]

We should invite Chief Marketing Officer Rojas. I can't remember her first name.

[Sarah]

Listen, I.

[Kirby]

You know, if this. But I will like going back to it. It's like, Steve. Our good man Steve. Our good man Steve. I can't even complain because our good man Steve. Yep.

[Sarah]

It's like Devil Wears Prada, but it is a different. Talking about.

[Kirby]

Yes. Like cerulean. Yes.

[Sarah]

If this is giving young people the opportunity to play and explore and find themselves in makeup, then sure, by all means. But I just think there's. There's gotta be a better way to do it. I don't know. I. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna go try it.

[Kirby]

Okay. Use hard.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Kirby]

Get me some.

[Sarah]

I mean, we could probably just buy so much makeup for, like, 100 bucks.

[Kirby]

Oh, my God. Do we really need to, though? Is the real question. All right, we'll talk to you guys on Friday.

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