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Gloss Angeles
Dr. Muneeb Shah Returns to Talk Sunscreen Drama, Derm Misconceptions, & Retinol Myths
00:52:51
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- [00:01]
Workday Go Announcer
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Sarah
G L A M Los Angeles.
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Kirby
Hi, Kirby.
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Sarah
Hi, Sarah. Welcome to Los Angeles, y'.
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Kirby
All.
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Sarah
He's back. In person, though, in the flesh. Somehow, by the grace of the Internet gods, we got Dr. Shaw back.
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Dr. Shah
Yes, in person. First time in person, which I'm very excited to see you both and do this live.
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Sarah
You and your wife have had a child since.
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Dr. Shah
Yes.
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Sarah
I think the last time we saw you.
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Dr. Shah
Yes, it's been a blur. Our daughter just turned 1 years old. Yay.
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Workday Go Announcer
Happy birthday.
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Dr. Shah
It has been the greatest joy of my life. It's been such an incredible year. Feels like a total blur. I have the baby Remedy and I have the baby, my daughter. And both of them have consumed almost all my time this year. So I post a lot less on social media, to be honest, because of that. But it's been an incredible year and she's starting to walk a bit, so it's amazing.
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Sarah
And he looks fresh as a daisy.
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Kirby
Fresh as a daisy.
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Dr. Shah
I wouldn't say that at all.
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Sarah
As a dermatologist, I think that's a good thing.
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Kirby
Must be all those Remedy products.
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Dr. Shah
Could be that. Yeah. I don't feel fresh as a daisy right now, I'll say that.
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Sarah
Well, we're so thrilled you're here. We adore you, we adore following you. We love what you're doing with Remedy and also we just, we love your content. And I had the privilege of hanging out with Dr. Shah at AAD, the celeb at AAD.
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Kirby
Oh, I'm sure.
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Sarah
Brands fighting over this man. Like, I was asking every brand like, do y' all have exclusivity with him? And they're like, no, we just want to make sure he gets to our booth. Like, he is that important.
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Kirby
Oh, my God, you're like a Kardashian.
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Sarah
No, no.
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Dr. Shah
Exclusivity. It's very small. American Academy of Dermatology. So it's our big annual meeting. As you see, it's like a festival, you know? And so what you don't see is that there's all this educational stuff that's happening in the backgrounds and they're presenting the newest research, but then the conference floor is like a carnival of Skincare products. Everyone's presenting their newest products, their breakthrough sciences. And then there's huge parties and events that happen at night afterwards. And yeah, in this small world, this is like my super bowl in a way, right? And I work with a lot of brands closely and there's a cohort of our derm influencers or derm creators that are out there that interface with a lot of the brands. But no, I mean, you were also everywhere, by the way.
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Sarah
I felt like I was actually going, going to the right places because when I would show up, Dr. Shah was there.
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Dr. Shah
So I saw you more than any anybody else, even more than the derms.
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Sarah
We were at rock, we were at Eltamd. Then you and Dr. Bonhusali co hosted the huge Neutrogena party, which was like the party to go to.
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Dr. Shah
That was an insane party.
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Sarah
Snoop Dogg performed.
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Dr. Shah
Wow.
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Sarah
This know how to party. I. I was trying so hard to get footage of Dr. Shaw. He was living his best life.
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Dr. Shah
Yeah, I was in the zone for this event because it had been months of planning and then we had invited all these people and we wanted it to be an amazing event. And Neutrogena team had put in so much effort, took a big bet on AIR to make this happen. And it just came together. It was 10x better than I could have ever anticipated a party being. And I was just thinking of my young kid self and how we used to throw parties when we were kids and now we're throwing this big party at the aad. It kind of felt full circle, but it's been a wild few years for me.
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Sarah
It was amazing. Wait, okay, Air. What is AIR again? Like how. What is that business for you and Dr. Bonhisali?
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Dr. Shah
So it's really like a software as a service platform. It's a tech platform to really tech enable derm offices. The reality is, if you look at the dermatology space, it's very fragmented. And so there can be a dermatologist that owns one practice and then there's these private equity firms that are coming in and they're buying multiple practices and they might have 100, 200 practices. And through that they get a lot of purchasing power. The problem is if you're an individual during practice, one or two or three offices, you don't get that purchasing power. And so you have to pay higher for everything. You don't get discounted pricing. You don't know how to really add profit to your business. And just looking at dermatology as a whole, you know, a lot of the re. A Lot of the payments come through reimbursements, through insurance, and those reimbursements are getting cut, except the cost to run the business continues to go up every year. And so what you have is a profit margin that's continuing shrink for derm offices. And most private practices will go out of business if they're not able to figure out how to adapt to it. So AEHR is a way for us to get discounted wholesale pricing to derm offices by basically aggregating the power of all the individual practices that have joined the platform. We also have the ability to retail products for your office through our platform. So instead of. If you've ever been to a dermatologist's office and they have products that they sell to you in the office, a lot of derms don't like doing that. It can feel icky to them. And so it's a way for us to do it digitally where they just send a list of recommended products and people can buy them online and the derm can get a commission for that, but you also get a discount as a patient baked in. So it's kind of a win win for everybody. So we're trying to digitize some of the offerings that we have in dermatology offices to basically supercharge the smaller offices.
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Sarah
Amazing.
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Kirby
So cool. And I can't believe you do that too.
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Sarah
Shock.
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Dr. Shah
Yeah.
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Sarah
A lot of businesses happening.
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Kirby
Okay, so again, we know you're like so incredibly busy. You, as we just mentioned, as Kirby said, are like one of the most in demand derms.
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Sarah
The number one on social. Number one on social, followers on social. Everybody. Like the Michaela of dermatology. This is crazy.
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Dr. Shah
I just saw Michaela last night. She's a star.
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Sarah
I mean, it's like you and her together, you know what I mean? Wow.
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Dr. Shah
We had a split step and repeat. So Remedy and pov, which is cool because we started as Tick Tock creators. Right. So then now we have our own brands and now we're hosting events. It's very cool.
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Kirby
Okay, so how has your career changed since then? You're still seeing patients though?
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Dr. Shah
Absolutely. Still seeing Patience. How's my career changed since doing social media? Yeah, I mean, my whole life trajectory is different than I thought it was going to be. You know, the different opportunities that have come my way, the ways to reach scale in ways than ever before. You know, we launched the brand Remedy. We have Air, I have an agency that represents derms exclusively on social media. I'm able to still see patients, but it's basically accelerated everything I'VE ever wanted to do in my life. I've been able to launch a brand with an audience, build it with them, you know, iterate on products, and we can talk a little bit about our product development and how the community plays a role. But then our patients play a role too. Right. So the complaints I'm hearing in the office, the things that I'm hearing from my audience, I'm able to create those into products. And so, I mean, I would say if in my wildest dreams, what I would have guessed I would have been doing 10 years ago and what I'm doing today is it wasn't even on the horizon of thoughts. Cause I didn't even have a social media account prior to 2020. So.
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Kirby
Yeah, that's crazy, right? I feel like one thing that I remember from our last conversation is the fact that you said you will probably, like, never stop seeing patients. It's just like, such an important part of your career. And also, like you said, it's so important for you to hear, you know, what your patients are struggling with and, like, what they want to see. So is that still true?
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Dr. Shah
Obviously, it's still very true. I took off three months for paternity leave. And it was. It felt. It felt a weird warp where I didn't. I felt like I didn't have my finger on the pulse anymore of what was going on on the ground. Like, the patient room is. The patient experience is really ground floor of, like, what's going on in the world. You. You can feel so much through a patient visit that you can't get anywhere else, like, through comments or any other inter. Like, it's just, how are people feeling? Are they feeling tight in their budgets today? What are their hopes and fears of the world? You could feel it, like, the politics of the world, the tariffs, these types of things. You can kind of feel it in that patient environment. And then you kind of know how to speak to people once you have an idea of what's happening on the ground floor. And so after the three months, I immediately, even though I wasn't back in the office, I started to do virtual appointments and then went back into the office. And so, yeah, it's a huge part of what I do. Even though I see patients less than I used to, it still informs so much of what I do.
- [08:42]
Sarah
There a barrier to entry now in terms of getting to see you, do you say, I'm not taking on new patients, or is there, you know, a wait list to get to see you?
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Dr. Shah
Yeah, there's a very long Wait list. And people, you know, and reasonably so, are upset about not being able to see me as quickly as they want to. And you know, follow ups. We try to keep the people that are already in because they have skin conditions that we're following and so they need to see me before a new patient can see me. So yeah, definitely a long wait list. But yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, there's no barrier to entry. Right. So anybody can come in. Right. Whether you have insurance or whether you're a cash pay patient, you know, there's no barrier to entry. Like anybody can see me. Which is kind of interesting. Right. Because you know, people who make content online, most people, you can't just make an appointment with them, but you can just make an appointment with me, actually.
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Sarah
Oh, okay. Take note. I remember.
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Dr. Shah
Here we go.
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Kirby
Just give yourself six months to a year.
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Sarah
Yes, exactly. Speaking of patients, I was curious, are you hearing or maybe it's more like your customers now, Right. Are you hearing about a very specific type of skin issue people are dealing with more specifically in 2025?
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Dr. Shah
I wouldn't say any, you know, there was a period, right. Where with people with wearing masks where we'd hear a lot about mask related skin issues. I would say now it's just back to the evergreen stuff. Right. Dark spots, you know, pores, dark circles under eye bags, wrinkles, saggy skin on the neck, tech neck. There's nothing really new. I would, I would say probably more than ever, patients are coming in for more hair loss related concerns. And so that's definitely picked up quite a bit. I think maybe initially people didn't think there was anything you could do or they didn't realize dermatologists were experts in hair. We're actually the only specialty that trains in hair. So we, we get a lot more hair than ever before. And I don't know if that's some type of indication of where the industry's going because when I walk into Sephora now, I see hair merged more than ever before. Right. It used to always have. Initially it used to be color that used to be in the front of the store. And then with skincare through 2020 to 2025, and now I'm seeing more and more hair placement. So maybe it's just the indication the industry is going more focusing on the skinification of hair.
- [10:58]
Sarah
Yeah. Also it sounds like people are stressed if they're worried about their hair. When someone comes in and says, I mean, I myself included me, I feel like my hair have hair fall, I have a Lot more hair fall. My hair is thinning. What are some questions that you ask your patients when they come to you with these specific problems?
- [11:15]
Dr. Shah
Yeah, I mean, you ask about, you know, we do an exam, right? So you look at their scalp, you see if there's any inflammation. So is it truly just age related or hormone related hair loss, androgenetic alopecia. You can kind of look at the scalp. If there's some type of inflammation, there might be something else underlying going on. So is it coming out in patches? That's a different type of hair lice we call alopecia areatis. So first an examination, then a lot of times can be stress related. We call that telogen effluvium. And so what's interesting about telogen effluvium is that it's not that something stressful happens. Yesterday you lose hair, tomorrow, it's something happened three months ago. It sends your hair into the telogen phase, which takes three months for your hair to fall out. So you have to start asking, what happened three months ago? Were you sick? Did you give birth to a child? Did you have a really loss in your family? And so you're trying to figure out what, what caused that sudden hair loss.
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Sarah
So that is such a good tip. Yeah, no, totally keep in mind because I think that, you know, when you start feeling like your hair is falling out or it's not growing, you want an immediate fix. You want to pinpoint it to something immediate that happened to you recently.
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Kirby
Yeah, right. I have a question. So we know a lot of people are on these semi glue tides and are losing weight really rapidly. Does that affect hair loss?
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Dr. Shah
Yeah, losing. Well, you know, with semaglutide and you know, wegovy mounjaro ozempic, it's a shock to the system. I mean, basically sends, especially if you start on a high dose, you're basically starving yourself initially, right. Until you get titrated properly. And so imagine any type of starvation stage that you put anybody in that can cause hair loss for sure. So we do see telogen effluvium related to people starting these and it should recover, right, because that stress on the system reduces and there's tons of benefits to being on these medications. Actually, I'm actually a huge proponent of what I think it will do for people's bodies long term if you're using it for the right reasons. But definitely we can see hair loss from that initial shock to the system because you basically go into starvation.
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Sarah
Can I ask you what the right.
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Dr. Shah
Reasons are well, you know, everybody can have the right reasons, right? So I think you have to define what that is. So this is how I kind of view it. So there's the indications, right? So you know, whether you have diabetes, that's an indication. If you have obesity, if you have, you know, heart issues, these things can be reasons why your doctor may prescribe you one of these medications. Those are always very good reasons because this is why the medication was made for diabetes, right? So you should always remember that. But even in general for people, for weight loss, even though it's not necessarily indicated without any other comorbidity, we call it. If you think about what happens to your body when you eat lots of sugar or you don't have regulated insulin levels and it is really bad for your body long term, high levels of glucose, they directly damage your kidneys, they damage your eyes, they can damage the collagen in your skin, can decrease life expectancy, fatty liver disease. There are so many things that happen due to obesity and to unregulated sugar levels and high levels of insulin in the body that if you're able to get this under control, your long term health outcome is so much better. So I do think if expanded indications were appropriate by governing bodies, I think it would probably be appropriate for a lot more people to be on this medications. Now, we don't know the full side effect profile yet because these are relatively newer medications. And so, you know, we may find out that these aren't the greatest things ever, as we do find out sometimes later on. But I think right now, for a lot of people who again, right reasons, probably a lot of times the benefits are going to outweigh the risks. There are downsides, of course, side effects, pancreatitis, gallbladder disease, things like that.
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Sarah
So totally okay. What do you think is a misconception about you or the work you do as a dermatologist, creator, hybrid?
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Dr. Shah
Well, I think there are a lot of misconceptions and I could list a hundred probably. I think first would probably be that, you know, dermatologists just take all these brand deals and are willing to say anything. And of course there are people that do that. And I think it's actually terrible for the specialty when we're not discerning because I do feel strongly that if we just become influencers in white coats, it's gonna be bad for all of us. And so we need to be discerning because we need to decide what does it mean to be derm recommended and it can't be everything, right? Cause then what's the purpose of us being here and giving these recommendations? So, you know, I think that this concept that we just will say anything and do anything, that's a big misconception. All of my colleagues are very discerning about what they want to recommend, what they want to say. They take into account their 12 years of credibility in the process. I would say the second thing is that it's a lot of work for some of these people that are doing full time content, full time office, have full time families, maybe they have a brand, maybe they have other projects that they're working on the side. These people are going at it full 20 hours a day. In terms of time commitment, then I would say probably third is one of the misconceptions is the net benefit of doctors being on social media. I think there are a lot of us now. And so it was very welcome when it first happened. And then of course the pendulum always swings the other way. And that could be because not everyone's a good actor as well, right? So I sort of understand that. So the pendulum swings the other way where then dermatologists on social media somewhat get demonized. But if we actually think about the net benefit, especially in a world where we're kind of going anti science now, right, the more voices that are pro science on social media is important, right? And you know, sometimes there can be infighting against amongst experts, right?
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Sarah
Because like I literally am like, this is like Sally Jesse Raphael stuff that I'm seeing sometimes between like the infighting, you know, where I'm like, what the hell is going on here, right?
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Dr. Shah
And that happens anytime, right? Any type of organization forms, there's infighting amongst the organization, right? It's like Lord of the Flies where it's like a government will form and there will be infighting for power. So the way I look at it is disregard the entire beauty enthusiast community, right? And this is like how I always ground myself is that there are millions of people with skin issues and they just are looking for answers, right? And they're not part of this like beauty enthusiast community, they're not consuming everyone's content for them, they're just trying to find a simple solution to their problem. And so us putting out good information how to simply take care of your skin, how to treat your acne scams to avoid this stuff is a net benefit to where we were five years ago, where there was like terrible, there was no good information, there was no experts on social media. So I think the net benefit of dermatologists on Social media is good. Of course, there are some downsides to it and we need to, as a specialty, be more discerning about what we want to do, what we want to promote and who we want to work with. But I think in general, it's a net benefit.
- [18:09]
Sarah
Yeah, I totally agree.
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Kirby
I'm so curious because obviously when you decided you wanted to be a derm, it wasn't. You could have never imagined that this is what you would be. But now when, you know, young people are applying for med school and, you know, wanting to be derms, I wonder if they see someone like you and say, wow, look at this incredible empire that he's built. And I'm sure just for dermatology in general, you know, it's been an increase in applications for that field.
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Dr. Shah
There's been an increase in applications for dermatology, it's true. And dermatology is so ripe for social media actually, because of the visualness, because beauty is so prominent in culture that. And also, you know, if you're going to spend a lot of time doing content, there needs to be a way to compensate that content, right? And so working with brands or the, or affiliates or whatever, whatever way there is to monetize, it's, it's a little bit more difficult to monetize if, if you're in other specialties, right? So let's say that you're a cardiologist, you're not going to get too many brand deals, right? So, you know, it just quicker oats, you know, it gets. And they do, you know, there's tons of other specialties that do, but there's just more opportunities. And so it leads to more people, more derms doing it. And then derm is probably one of the more overrepresented specialties on social media as a result. But now people see that. And I definitely think that there are certainly students who want to go into dermatology because they see the Snoop Dogg party, right? They don't see all this behind the scenes stuff, right? Yeah, they don't see like the research.
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Sarah
That'S being presented with, you know, everybody really buttoned.
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Dr. Shah
Good, it's good, it's good. But then maybe they go in it for the wrong reasons. Which is why, because to your point, when I went into dermatology, I didn't even have a social media following. Nobody had a social media following. There was no derms or doctors doing this, really. And so I went into it because I loved it. And so you could start skewing the wrong type of people. But I Think in general, it's such a hard thing to do. It's such a long process that you're going to fall in love with it. You're going to become an expert. And then. And also your goals can change why you do things and why you start things. So you can almost become purified in that process of going through the training of dermatology, where your intentions can get better with time and your goals can change. But we definitely see that. And actually, there was a recent survey of children in high school or something, or maybe college students of what do you want to be when you grow up? Type of thing. And it was like, number one was a YouTuber, YouTuber, number two is a TikToker, and a number three was a doctor.
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Kirby
Oh.
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Dr. Shah
And so I was like, well, I'm a YouTuber, a TikToker, and a doctor. So you could be all three, actually.
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Sarah
Wow.
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Dr. Shah
Gosh.
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Kirby
You're gonna have to start touring the high schools and giving some pep talks.
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Dr. Shah
I love actually talking to students. It's one of my favorite things to do. So I'll go back to my alma mater, but I'll also do virtuals for students. It's one of my favorite things to do because I had so many mentors growing up that influenced who I am. And so whenever I can give time, I love to give time there. But there's tons of people that want to do derm now, and it's a good thing.
- [21:15]
Workday Go Announcer
Yeah.
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Kirby
But hopefully, yeah, it's for. For they end up doing it for the right reasons. We have to talk about Remedy. We know that, like, tons of professionals love Remedy. They love the products. What do you think makes Remedy different from other brands, Especially other brands that are made by derms?
- [21:33]
Dr. Shah
Yeah, well, you know, I think I don't want to compare too much to other people, but I could just talk about my philosophy. What makes the brand different, why we launched it in the first place. But, you know, my approach has always been to look at where products are falling short in people's minds. And I have a lot of. I'm actually a very analytical person. And so I've always looked at data that came in through my platform. And so what are people clicking on? What are they buying? What types of videos are they watching? Where do they feel like products are falling short? What are the comments saying? Like, we can put all the comments and scrape them now and, like, get data on what is the general consensus? What is the main concern? What are the keywords people are talking about? And so what I saw over and over again was certain problems were still unmet, right? So we started a lot with the problems. You know, we have remedy for dark spots, remedy for pore size, remedy for healthy aging. So we started with the common problems that we saw, Evergreen, that were like, okay, we can make better versions of this, but how do you make a better version of these? And so I think what our edge is, actually, is that it's really shaped by this community. And what does that mean? Is that we're not creating these products in a vacuum of, like, what do I think deserves to belong in the world? But we came out, we're coming out with a cleansing balm, and it's been a headache. And in the process, right, it's okay. People already have cleansing bombs, right? So how do we make a better cleansing balm for people? So we say, what's your favorite cleansing balm? And then we get a poll of, like, 100,000 responses, and people are like, these are, like, the top five, right? And then you say, where do you feel like your cleansing balm is falling short? Well, it doesn't ruin my eye makeup well enough. Like, consistently. Number one thing was, like, it needs to remove all makeup, right? And so it's like, that's table stakes for this product when we're gonna launch it. The second thing is it irritates my eyes. So we did ophthalmology testing on the product, and we made sure it wasn't gonna irritate the eyes. Then the next thing that people had was like, I don't like sticking my finger in it. Can you put it in a tube? And so we put it in, like, a grinding mechanism so you don't have to stick your finger in it. So you start listing, you get an idea of, like, where products are falling short, and you can make a better version for people. And so with Dark Remedy for Dark Spots, for example, invariably when people had dark spots, I would say, how are you treating it? And it's like, well, I'm using these three products. And I'm like, well, that's crazy. We would never ask anyone to do three things to get one result. So we put them all in one product, and we spent years stabilizing it. And so our brand edge really is to simplify people's routines and to solve where, you know, other brands have not solved problems for people, but also add, like, a lot of clarity. I. I won't name brands, but sometimes product nomenclature is overwhelming, even for me. I'll walk into Sephora and I'll see a product and it's like the cloud serum. And I can't imagine like me feeling overwhelmed as a dermatologist knowing so much about the skin. I can't imagine how a customer, naive customer who doesn't know beauty walks in and goes, what is a cloud serum supposed to do for my skin? Do I need this? Do I not need it? The influencers talking about it. Should I buy it? Should I not buy it? So we named all the products for like exactly what they do, right? So it's like remedy for dark spots. You have dark spots. It's very clear what this is for. So. So we try to add clarity compared to other brands as well.
- [24:49]
Kirby
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- [25:50]
Sarah
That's great because there is a lot of marketing around some of these names. Even Sarah and I are like that product and it's like 16 words, right?
- [25:57]
Kirby
And then. Or it's just the ingredients. And to your point, there's a lot of beauty non beauty enthusiasts who are like, I don't know what niacinamide is.
- [26:03]
Dr. Shah
Like, why do you need like exactly. If it's a 10% niacinamide serum, don't you need. You would need to know you need niacinamide first, right?
- [26:10]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [26:10]
Dr. Shah
It's almost a backwards way to do the product.
- [26:13]
Kirby
Totally. Yeah. So yours is very straightforward. It's like, yeah, I have dark spots. I need a cleansing balm.
- [26:18]
Dr. Shah
There's some downsides to this though. So like in every, any world where you think you're solving a problem, you sometimes don't always solve a problem. There's two things that I learned about this that are just things that I've learned now as a brand founder. Number one is that for search reasons, the longer names are useful because when people are searching for the product, they have multiple keywords that they can plug in and you can rank high for when you name a product. Remedy for dry lips. It can be quite hard to find on search, right. So it's not something I thought about. But retrospectively having extra words can be useful for search. And then some people don't like to think about themselves having dark spots. Right. It's not like aspirational for some people. Right. Like they don't want dark spots. Right. But, you know, so there is this part of like, people want the better version of themselves, right. They want to see what their skin is going to look like and what it currently is. Right. So this is balancing that. Right. Of like, you know, the aspirational, but also meeting them where they are. And so there's just some things you learn as you go on where it's like some minor tweaks can just make people more accepting of a product.
- [27:26]
Sarah
It's so funny because when you mentioned niacinamide, I was thinking about how Sephora, if you go onto their site and start searching for a product, you'll notice that the names change and it's because they add in popular ingredients now. So, like, you'll see, you know, whatever serum with mandelic acid or whatever serum with Kojic acid. And I remember being like, that's not the name. And I, I did this with Hyperskin. Hyperskin had mandelic acid in it. And I remember I was like, but that's not the name of this product on Sephora it was, but then you go to their website and it's not. And it's like, it's obviously helping with search there. But the support customer, I think does kind of know at least a little bit, especially if they are shopping for skin care, like, what they're looking for in a way. So it's really interesting to me too that you're, you have to balance like, the psychology of, like, what people want to think about them.
- [28:19]
Kirby
So I didn't even think about that.
- [28:22]
Sarah
That is revelatory, right? In my opinion.
- [28:25]
Kirby
Yeah.
- [28:25]
Sarah
Because we, we love data. We love analyzing the data. So. Yeah.
- [28:30]
Kirby
And we have our own community that, you know, shares, you know, their preferences and, and how they shop, where they shop, those things too. But I don't know, I never thought about that. Like, for me, I'm like, I have Dark spots. I want a product that.
- [28:41]
Sarah
Oh yeah, Melasma. Yeah. Hook me up.
- [28:43]
Dr. Shah
Yeah.
- [28:44]
Kirby
But I guess, yeah, some people are a little bit more sensitive. Yeah. They want brighter skin.
- [28:49]
Dr. Shah
Yeah. And then there's a third, third element. Right. Is like when you name your product remedy for dandruff or remedy for dark spots, the expectation is that it's going to eliminate these things. Right. And maybe they don't use it for long enough but the expectation is quite high because you're almost making a promise to people. But if you said this is remedy for brightening, there's really no end point for people. Right. So they're less critical of the product. Right. So you really have to deliver if you're going to make a promise. So there's just like all these minor nuances I didn't necessarily think about. But for search I think in my opinion probably Sephora is trying to compete with Amazon and Amazon does this. Right. And so Amazon best practices is that it's not just the name of the product but you also put top searched keywords as like the tail end of it. So it'd be like remedy for dark spots with niacinamide, Kojic acid, retinol and whatever. And you kind of pick the top search terms. And so in order to compete on Google with Amazon, I think they probably have to totally.
- [29:51]
Sarah
It's also I think obviously helpful on their own website. But you're right because when I add stuff to shop my from Amazon, it's like the most insane long name with every ingredient possible. It's crazy. Yeah. Okay, wait, so tell us more about the cleansing balm. You said that this was kind of a headache to develop.
- [30:08]
Dr. Shah
Yeah, it wasn't actually a headache to develop the product actually we've had an approved formula for a very long time and then we put it in a shredder mechanism. This is like South Korean technology. And the formula is amazing. Right. We solved all these issues. Non irritating for the eyes. We tested it. It's like this balm that turns into oil. You rinse it with water, it turns into a milk. It's like just a beautiful formula. Now the thing is we are confidentially launching in retail at the soon ish, let's say. And retail is different than DTC because right now we're a DTC business. We have our website and we have Amazon. And let's say that we decide that we're going to launch the product a month late because something happened. Nobody knows. Nobody knows, right? Like nobody knows we were supposed to launch. Nobody knows. Nobody's the wiser, right? But with retail, you cannot deliver late because they look at each shelf space as an opportunity to sell something. And if you have a shelf space that's dedicated to you and it's empty, it's the worst thing that you can do as a brand. And so we have to be able to deliver this product. Okay? So that's why there's a little bit of pressure on it. So anyway, the product arrives, the packaging arrives. So we do a pilot, and then we do a full production, right? So the first time we run the product, we do it as a pilot, which is like, a small sample size. So I think we did, like, 500 units or something like that. And they sent me five of them, and I got five of them, and four of them were broken. Meaning, like, the pumps, the shredder was broken. The formula's fine. It's just the shredder was broken. So there's some packaging issue that's going on.
- [31:45]
Kirby
Five is not good.
- [31:46]
Dr. Shah
No, it's terrible. That's 80%. That's such a bad experience. And, like, I have this, like, radical empathy for customers. I think it comes from being a doctor is where, like, if I was a. If I was a customer and I got a broken pump from a brand, like, I would never shop this brand again. Maybe I'm, like, overly critical. But you don't get too many second chances because there's too many choices out there nowadays, right? So you really have to nail every part of the customer experience. So we said, okay, we have to test everything that we've produced so far to see where the ones that are broken. So it came back, like 8% were broken, which is also way too high. Not 80%, but it's still 8% is way too high. Pump failures should be coming, or any type of packaging failure should come in, like, less than 0.5%. So 8% is, like, extraordinarily high failure. So team Scrappy team gets together, like, okay, what are we gonna do? We have to test all these pumps. We have to get them ready for retailers. You can't manually. There's so many of them. So you have to. So we send them from New Jersey to North Carolina to this company that can test all of them and prime them. So what ended up turning up is that you had to prime them. You had to twist it 20 times to prime the pump so that it could shred properly.
- [32:56]
Sarah
Stop.
- [32:57]
Dr. Shah
So someone has to manually do this. So we assemble this crew, shipped the products from New Jersey to North Carolina. They shred them all 20 times to send, then send them back to New Jersey to have them filled. So this is just the packaging they sent. Right. Yesterday, I get news that they did this. They scrapped the 8% that were broken. They primed the pumps. They ship them back from North Carolina to New Jersey. The truck gets in an accident on the highway. Like, the driver's okay.
- [33:27]
Sarah
Oh, thank goodness. Okay.
- [33:28]
Dr. Shah
Truck spills over, damages all the units that were again, meant to go to retail. Right. So now we have to figure out. I think we're gonna solve it. So it's like, I think we're in good space, but it means that we have to. We can't dedicate inventory to our DTC as much inventory to our D2C launch for the product. But you have one of the few units that have survived this chaos right now.
- [33:50]
Kirby
I feel so honored. It has been twisted 20 times. It's all good.
- [33:55]
Sarah
I love that you brought that. That up, because I have had pumps.
- [33:58]
Workday Go Announcer
Oh, yeah.
- [33:59]
Kirby
We talk about it all the time.
- [34:01]
Sarah
I know you love this product. I cannot use this product every single time. I cannot get the product out, like, and I.
- [34:09]
Kirby
Lose a customer.
- [34:09]
Sarah
I know.
- [34:10]
Workday Go Announcer
Yeah.
- [34:10]
Kirby
But the accident, you couldn't control.
- [34:13]
Dr. Shah
You can't control any of that.
- [34:15]
Kirby
I'm so sorry.
- [34:16]
Sarah
Being a brand founder sounds like a lesson in terror. Honestly.
- [34:19]
Kirby
No, true.
- [34:19]
Sarah
Every day, something new to terrorize.
- [34:21]
Dr. Shah
Something always happens. But it's a good feeling when you have a team that is, you know, the call is, so the truck spilled over, but we think we have a plan. So I do have a great team who is already coming with solutions.
- [34:39]
Sarah
Okay.
- [34:40]
Dr. Shah
And it keeps me from bearing the brunt of it, but, you know, when the team was much smaller, there's a lot more for me to do.
- [34:47]
Kirby
So will our listeners be able to purchase this from this retailer that you are now partnering with?
- [34:52]
Dr. Shah
You will be able to purchase it from the retailer, but. But we're a little bit. Couple months out.
- [34:56]
Kirby
Okay. Okay.
- [34:58]
Dr. Shah
It should be D2C ready by then, too. Limited inventory, so we'll still have some. We'll still have some.
- [35:04]
Kirby
Amazing.
- [35:05]
Sarah
Perfect. All right. What is the Derm community talking about behind the scenes that you think deserves airtime online?
- [35:13]
Dr. Shah
The Derm community. Let's see. You know, there's, of course, new innovations that come out all the time. I think probably the main feeling I get from the Derm community right now is just, I guess, sort of the uncertainty around all the changes that are happening with whether it's reimbursements. What is the practice landscape going to look like, how is AI going to affect the way that we practice? I actually thought it would take longer, to be honest, to be implemented into Durham offices. But now note taking has already taken an effect where they'll, you know, you basically have an AI scribe in the room who's listening to the conversation. They come up with the plan and they put it all together in a note. So I think there's a little bit of uncertainty in the derm community around what the future of practicing dermatology is going to look like. We're very procedural specialty, which means that people will always have to come in for biopsies, injections, and all kinds of other things that we do. But I think there's certainly uncertainty from the creator landscape. It's a lot more accepted than ever before. When I first started creating content, it was like a taboo of like these derms on social media. I think it's become somewhat part of, like, regular practice. It's almost table stakes. A lot of people feel like they need to be on social media, which I actually don't think is the case. But, you know, I think in general, the derm community has finally embraced social media as being a way for derms to communicate with their patients.
- [36:45]
Kirby
Okay, we have to ask you about sunscreen because we talk about it so much and everyone is talking about it online, whether it's like a recall, a formulation, not living up to the indicated sunscreen. And then also we talk about it, we're like, there's a sunscreen problem in terms of like the regulation and the testing. It's just crazy. White cast free. Also, like, that messaging has, has, you know, really gone awry. What are your feelings on sunscreen?
- [37:13]
Dr. Shah
Sunscreen is a challenging topic to talk about on social media because there's a lot of nuances, there's a lot of infighting if you don't get it perfect. And there's a lot of criticism on brands who also don't get it perfect, Right? So it is a tough space, right? You have one side of the world that thinks that sunscreen is all toxic and is giving you skin cancer actually, and are saying, use beef tallow instead, right? So you talk about sunscreen. Those people hate you, right? You talk about sunscreen and you don't say everything exactly perfect. Then you get some of the scientific communities like, well, you know, did you know that this molecule has an extra carbon that you didn't mention? You know, that doesn't affect its performance? So there's just this nuance within it, and people are so Charged up about sunscreen for whatever reason. And my approach has always been just wear sunscreen at least SPF 30 and wear it every day. But it doesn't seem like it's that simple. You know, there was the benzene scare in sunscreens that happened before the benzoyl peroxide thing, right? Where there was all this benzene contamination in sunscreens that scared a lot of people away from sunscreens because they think all of them have this, but it was mostly aerosols. But there was also some nuances there about is that even harmful? And then there's all the testing problems that happened in Australia. And so that as a dermatologist, scientific communicator on social media, when things like this happen and they happen at such a large scale where everyone's talking about erodes a little bit of the trust that consumers have in products that you recommend, right? So, for example, Ultraviolet, everyone's seen as a beloved brand in the skincare enthusiast community. And then you see some of the testing come in lower than expected. And now all these people are, you know, I would never buy this brand or all sunscreens aren't really what they're supposed to be, right? And so slowly, that erosion of trust, right? Let's say that you're a person who recommended that brand or those products, right? And then people are like, well, now can I trust your recommendation? Right? So I think it's so much more nuanced than that, right? You have a testing lab that wasn't reporting things correctly. The brand seems to have tried to do everything right. Maybe they didn't communicate everything right? And then you as an influencer, have no idea what their testing they did. You have to basically take everything at face value, right? If something says SPF 30, who are you to question? These are products that are registered with the fda because sunscreens are heavily regulated. You have to submit these products. The packaging and label and all the indications are all submitted. It's all verified. And so you kind of have to take it at face value. And so I think for me, I just tried to get not very specific, tell people to wear sunscreen. I know the net benefit is positive because I see it in my patients every day. When you don't wear sunscreen, you're way higher risk for skin cancer, way higher risk for sun damage. And I don't really get too much into the sunscreen debate, honestly, on social media because I feel like it's a. It's a losing debate other than to say, wear sunscreen every Day.
- [40:13]
Sarah
I was going to say, I don't see you make a ton of content about, like, pushing a specific brand. I think when I see you talk about sunscreen and spf, you are very much the advocate of just wear it.
- [40:26]
Dr. Shah
Yeah, I am. These are brands I have. I like altamd as a sunscreen brand. I think La Roche Posay has very reliable sunscreens. I mean, but regardless, I mean, could it be that one day altamd has some type of altamd scandal, and then suddenly I've been recommending it forever? I think there's that risk that we always take. I think you take the best guess and you hope that you're. My approach to this has always been. And I always feel it's like every time before I hit submit or upload on any piece of content is like, was this made with the best intentions and my full research and understanding of this thing, or did I wing it? Or do I fully feel confident in what I'm saying? And if you feel good about what you're putting out in the world and you feel like you're doing the right thing for the right reasons, even if you were wrong, as long as you can go back and be like, hey, new information came out. I was wrong. It could be the case. And I'm not even ruling this out entirely, that sunscreen actually is bad for you. Right?
- [41:24]
Sarah
Oh, really?
- [41:24]
Dr. Shah
No, no. I'm not saying no, no.
- [41:26]
Sarah
I was like, let's talk about it.
- [41:28]
Dr. Shah
No, no, no, no, no. My point is that, like, we could all be wrong. But what I'm telling you right now is my understanding of the body of information. After reading hundreds of studies and seeing the results of my own patients, I think sunscreen is good for you.
- [41:42]
Sarah
And I've also seen the benefits of wearing sunscreen 100% on myself even. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:48]
Kirby
Same 100%.
- [41:49]
Dr. Shah
But if one day we found out we were wrong, that we did it with the best intentions, these recommendations. Right. Like, I genuinely believe, even for my own family, that wearing sunscreen is good. If I end up being wrong, I'll take the L and I'll tell the world, hey, I was wrong about sunscreen. And, you know, I was dealing with the best information I had, and I was wrong. And so, you know, I think ultimately I would still feel good that I made the best recommendation I could at the time. And, you know, I might end up being wrong, but right now I feel like I'm right.
- [42:20]
Sarah
Yeah. Same.
- [42:21]
Kirby
Speaking of your family, and based on all the research, you, you know what sunscreen did your wife wear when she was pregnant?
- [42:29]
Dr. Shah
It's a good question. So, and I, I say this right, there's, there's, I've said this and probably could get criticized for this. There is no evidence that chemical sunscreens are unsafe in pregnancy. There is some absorption data that said that many of the chemical filters and this is from like a while back, it's like a 2019 JAMA Dermatology article that sunscreen, certain chemical sunscreens absorb more than we thought they did.
- [42:56]
Sarah
Okay.
- [42:57]
Dr. Shah
Especially if you apply them all over your body. And so basically the recommendation after that was like we need to do some more research to understand if this is even a bad thing. Right. That doesn't, it's not conclusive. It's not like these absorbed more than we thought they did. Doesn't mean it's bad, doesn't mean it's good. But it requires more research. That was the conclusion of this article. Based on that information, I felt given that a developing baby is very vulnerable to any type of insults during the growing process, that for my wife I said, I think that mineral sunscreen has got less absorption and is likely just more clear that generally regarded as safe and effective. And so I think during pregnancy, given that it's such a, you want to. And anybody who's been pregnant, anybody that's had children before, know it's a time where you just want to hope you're doing all the right things for the baby. You're eating the right things, you're taking. Do you get, which vaccines do you take? You know, do I travel? Do I not travel? Like, I mean everyone is trying to do the best thing for their child. Right? And I think for us that choice is, it's a non scientific choice actually. It was just a feeling. Based on the data and my personal preferences, I thought mineral sunscreen was the preference during pregnancy. That's just me personally plus the data. It's not a general recommendation for anyone. So if you use a chemical sunscreen in pregnancy, I'm totally fine with that. Personally told my wife to use mineral sunscreen and then I personally use chemical sunscreen every day for myself. So I'm not pregnant so I feel pretty confident in that. So it's just a small nuance and it's not necessarily right or wrong, but it's just I felt I wanted to do what I thought was the best for our daughter and you know.
- [44:47]
Sarah
Yeah, totally.
- [44:47]
Kirby
I totally agree.
- [44:49]
Sarah
This was a question that we got in our Slack channel from our community.
- [44:54]
Dr. Shah
Ooh, Slack community. I like It.
- [44:56]
Sarah
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. They ask a lot of questions.
- [44:59]
Kirby
They're very smart, too.
- [45:00]
Sarah
This particular listener said that she started using retinol. She deals with rosacea, but her dermatologist started incorporating a prescription retinol into her routine. And she noticed she's not getting red or flaky skin, which sounds great, but she said, should I be upping my dosage if I'm not experiencing those side effects of retinol that typically people talk about?
- [45:28]
Dr. Shah
That's a good question. Not necessarily. Right. So ultimately, I would say with any dose, when you're starting any type of retinoid, right? And there's a variety of retinoids, right? You have the over count of the ones, and Those can be 0.1% retinol. You could have retinaldehyde. You could have tretinoin, which. It sounds like she was prescribed tretinoin. And there's the lowest dose, 0.025%, 0.5%, 0.1%, 0.05%, 0.1%. So those are the common doses. Now, I generally start people at either lowest dose or the middle dose. And I will have them stay on it for three months, and then I'll reassess them. So with or without side effects. And then I ask them, like, are you happy with how your skin is? Right. If you're on it for, like, let's say, aging, are you happy with how your texture looks? Are your fine lines and wrinkles looking better? If so, and you're happy with the results and you're not experiencing side effects, I will keep them on that dose. If they say, well, actually, I'm not seeing the results I want to see after three months, then I'll say, well, you're not experiencing any side effects. Let's increase your dose. Right? So it depends on what you know, if they're. If she's happy with her skin. But I don't think you should push your skin until it hurts. It's not one of those things where it's like. Like working out, where you have to feel a little bit of pain to get a result. You can get really good, consistent results without having any side effects with retinoids. So you don't have to experience side effects.
- [46:45]
Sarah
Okay, last question. This is gonna be. You're going to prescribe Sarah and I some remedy products based off of our biggest skin concern. Sarah, you start.
- [47:00]
Kirby
Aging maintenance.
- [47:01]
Dr. Shah
Yep. Okay. We have a product that's specifically named for your concern. It's called Remedy for Healthy Aging. Okay.
- [47:10]
Kirby
Wow, look at that.
- [47:11]
Dr. Shah
Does exactly what you would expect it to do. So the concept with this was product made for me because that's my main concern is, oh, I'm noticing some fine lines and wrinkles. My skin is drier than ever. My texture is not as smooth. My pores are starting to look larger. So the approach was put everything in there that treats the aging skin concerns on the skin from like the dermis upwards with the best ingredients. So we have retinaldehyde, we have argireline and Matrixyl, those two combinations of peptides.
- [47:40]
Sarah
Oh, I just learned about these peptides. I love these peptides. Love this.
- [47:46]
Dr. Shah
Okay, let's everything glycolic, lactic. So we have our alpha hydroxy acids. They're slow release, so they're gentle for everyday use. And we also have antioxidants in it, so it really hits it from all the different angles. So it's an all in one product for your healthy aging concerns. Do you have dry or normal skin?
- [48:02]
Kirby
I have dry skin.
- [48:04]
Dr. Shah
So you'll like our Rich Cream cleanser for dry skin and our Rich Cream moisturizer for dry skin.
- [48:09]
Kirby
Amazing.
- [48:10]
Dr. Shah
Actually, our Rich Cream moisturizer just won the people award for best skin moisturizer for dry skin. Which to me is a big accomplishment over the treatments because the treatments have won awards, but because our treatments are so. But there's so many moisturizers out there. So for us to win a moisturizer award, I feel pretty good that we got it in the basics essential category. Yeah, it's a really nice moisturizer.
- [48:29]
Kirby
I feel like that's also like a point of discovery for people. If they like your cream, they're gonna like, you know, look into your serums and try to.
- [48:34]
Dr. Shah
You wanna hear a data point that's exciting? Okay, this is. I'm like a real nerd for data, like I said, which maybe you wouldn't expect. Cause I do more or less like content creation. So usually like a left brain, right brain thing. But I'm actually way more analytical than I am creative, way more. And so this is an interesting data point. So for Remedy we have like 10 products and if you look at one of the most important metrics for any E commerce business is something called ltv Lifetime value of the customer. So it's how much does a customer spend with your brand over time? And you can actually break that down by product. And so if the first product you buy from Remedy is the Remedy Rich cream moisturizer, you will spend more money with us over time. So it's that first interaction with the brand, which is why that, like, first customer experience is so important. That first interaction with the brand, the rich cream moisturizer, makes them more loyal to the brand. So it's an interesting data point. It shows me that it's a product they fall in love with. And they fall in love with the brand because they fall in love with the product.
- [49:38]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [49:38]
Kirby
They're like, I can trust this brand with my skin.
- [49:41]
Dr. Shah
Yep.
- [49:41]
Sarah
Is that the hero product, though?
- [49:43]
Dr. Shah
It's not. It's not our best selling product. Yeah.
- [49:45]
Sarah
What is. What is the best selling?
- [49:46]
Dr. Shah
Dark spots.
- [49:47]
Sarah
Okay. Yeah, I have dark spots. Well, I have melasma. It's. It's hormonally charged, and I have it on the top of my forehead right here. I call it my natural contour. But it drives me nuts because I feel that instead of just completely freezing your face or plumping up your face, I think you look more youthful when your skin is more even, toned and clear. And right now it's not. So what would you suggest for me?
- [50:12]
Dr. Shah
Okay, so melasma, obviously a medical condition, and I would kind of treat it. Step. Have you ever used hydroquinone?
- [50:18]
Sarah
Yes.
- [50:18]
Dr. Shah
Okay. When was the last time you were on hydroquinone?
- [50:21]
Sarah
I have a compounded prescription from my dermatologist here that has Kojic acid hydroquinone and a few other ingredients in it.
- [50:28]
Dr. Shah
Okay.
- [50:28]
Sarah
And I use that this week.
- [50:30]
Dr. Shah
And how long have you been on it?
- [50:32]
Sarah
Off and on for, like, years. It's called the Vegas cream because she had it compounded in Vegas many years ago, but. But on and off for a few years. So I just started reimplementing it two weeks ago.
- [50:40]
Dr. Shah
Okay. But you take breaks, though?
- [50:42]
Sarah
Yes.
- [50:42]
Dr. Shah
Okay. So with hydroquinone and generally accepted, especially if you see a lot of patients with deeper, darker skin tones, is that when you're on hydroquinone for too long, it can cause permanent discoloration called exogenous ochronosis. You can look up a picture of it at some point, but it's pretty gnarly. It's not pigmentation. It's like these banana bodies that develop in the skin and they cause permanent pigmentation of the skin. And so we generally don't keep people on hydroquinone for too long in a row. So you should take what we call like a hydroquinone holiday. Now, during these hydroquinone holidays, a very appropriate treatment for this would be remedy for dark spots.
- [51:19]
Sarah
Okay.
- [51:19]
Dr. Shah
Because we specifically formulated for my patients coming off of hydroquinone and for patients who weren't Seeing a dermatologist. Right. And the reason is because it doesn't have hydroquinone, which you can't have hydroquinone over the counter. It was removed after the CARES act. So we actually used to have hydroquinone over the counter. I don't know if you knew that.
- [51:37]
Sarah
Murad had it in this incredible product and people rioted when it got removed.
- [51:43]
Dr. Shah
Yeah. So they took it off with cares and so now you can't get it anymore. So prescription only short periods. And then when you get off of it. We made it for people getting off of hydroquinone because it doesn't have alpha arbutin in it, because alpha arbutin actually breaks down to hydroquinone in the skin. So it gives you like a full holiday from hydroquinone. So you can safely use this product long term for the skin. And tinted sunscreens, of course. Tinted sunscreens and then hydroquinone, short period remedy for dark spots after that. And then lasers would probably be the most appropriate for your skin tone. Chemical peels could do really well for you as well. But something like a pico laser can do very well for you.
- [52:23]
Kirby
I'm going, I'm obsessed.
- [52:25]
Dr. Shah
And you'll see really good results with that. But it's like you need this foundation, which is like the skincare routine and sunscreen. And then you go on to the procedures, which I think you have a good skincare routine. So you're at the phase where you should go into the. And then after you get you do the pico laser, you should use your prescription to make sure the pigmentation doesn't come back during the immediate after treatment period.
- [52:49]
Sarah
Okay, follow up. Why tinted sunscreen?
- [52:52]
Dr. Shah
So tinted sunscreens have iron oxides in them, and so do your makeup, by the way. So iron oxides block visible light, and visible light is outside of the spectrum of uv. And so UV is what sunscreens protect against. You know, SPF is the uvb. And then, you know, in Korea, sunscreens, you'll see, like, the PA that's referring to the UVA spectrum. In the US we just say broad spectrum, which covers UVA and uvb. Outside of the UV spectrum is visible light. Visible light, we know, is a contributor to melasma. And so tinted sunscreens block an additional layer of visible light to protect against people that have melasma.
- [53:27]
Sarah
Okay, well, I'm gonna bust out my ELTA MP tinted and go to town. Look at that.
- [53:33]
Kirby
We bypassed the wait list. How lucky are we?
- [53:35]
Workday Go Announcer
Wow.
- [53:36]
Kirby
Wow. That's the only reason we got you.
- [53:40]
Sarah
We said we have to take the opportunity as it presents itself. Dr. Shah, thanks for coming and being in studio with us. We adore you. We love everything that you do. We're so excited for you and Remedy.
- [53:52]
Kirby
Yes.
- [53:52]
Sarah
Where can everybody find you online and where can everybody shop Remedy?
- [53:55]
Dr. Shah
Okay, so Instagram, Doctorly, YouTube, Doctorly TikTok, DERM, Dr. Brandisremedy and remedyskin.com we're also on Amazon. We have an authorized store there and launching retail soon so look for us in stores nationwide.
- [54:28]
Workday Go Announcer
New products to launch, new people to develop, new goals to crush. Workday Go is designed for small and mid sized businesses. By bringing HR and finance together on one AI platform, you'll have everything you need to think big, go big and grow big. And activation is fast. It takes just 30 to 60 business days to get you up and running. Simplify your SMB on an AI platform, you'll never outgrow Workday Go.