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Gloss Angeles
How Dianna Cohen Built Crown Affair Into a Sephora Haircare Favorite With a Dry Shampoo
00:34:23
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- [00:02]
Diana
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Kirby
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Nikayla Matthews Akome
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Diana
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- [01:00]
Diana
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- [01:13]
Kirby
Los angeles hi, kirby.
- [01:17]
Diana
Hi, sarah.
- [01:18]
Kirby
Welcome to los angeles.
- [01:25]
Sarah
Welcome to the podcast. Diana, how are you?
- [01:28]
Diana
I'm great. How are you guys doing?
- [01:29]
Sarah
We are thrilled.
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Kirby
We're so happy to see you. Last time we saw you was at Max and Helen's, which we have to say, you were the first. The first. And then after you, many brands, we love it.
- [01:40]
Diana
We love kicking it off strong. I love hanging out with people over pancakes and hot chocolate. So it was a treat to see you guys.
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Kirby
It was one of. One of the best events that we've been to in a long time.
- [01:48]
Diana
Oh, thank you.
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Sarah
You were launching the Air Dry cream.
- [01:51]
Diana
Yeah.
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Sarah
And I personally am obsessed. I'm definitely not an air dry girl, but love it. Even just having it in my hair before I heat style, that's exactly how
- [02:01]
Kirby
I used it today.
- [02:02]
Diana
Yep.
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Kirby
Yes. So good.
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Sarah
Well, we love you on Substack. We love your products, we love you and we love your taste. So if we may ask you, what is on your face? What are five products that you can wax poetic about?
- [02:17]
Diana
It's so hard to narrow it down to five, as both of you know. But let's start with. Let's start with a little lip moment I currently have on, say, Glossy Bounce. It's one of my favorite lips and I feel like I could just do five lips alone. I have Mary Phillips foundation on Love it lay skin. So it's literally so good and so lightweight in my hair. I have Crown of hair dry shampoo One is judge it up. We just launched travel size, so I have that with me in my bag at all times.
- [02:41]
Sarah
Wait, travel size?
- [02:43]
Diana
Travel size.
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Kirby
A little pump. Did you get it?
- [02:45]
Diana
Well, we'll change that. We're going to change that for you.
- [02:47]
Kirby
It's so genius.
- [02:48]
Diana
It's the jar. The jar was inspired by. I worked when I was working, like, long hours in an office a million years ago. I used to have a little aerosol, and I ran out and I needed dry shampoo. So I reached for my Laura Mercier translucent powder and applied it all over my hair with a kabuki brush. And that was, like, the genesis of the idea for the powder, because before that, there was not one good powder dry shampoo that I could find. They were all, like, gritty. So we had the jar. The jar is amazing. But she's a big girl. She's like a top shelf girl. So people have been asking for the last three years. They're like, can you finally make travel? So we make a little travel one. I also right now have an amazing moisturizer on my skin. It's from Lennox and 16th. Do you guys know this?
- [03:25]
Kirby
I've heard of it, but I've not tried it.
- [03:26]
Diana
Okay. Amy Peterson does my skin in Miami. She is truly the queen of skin care. She does everyone in Miami. She has her own skincare brand, and her moisturizer, Soft Landing, is elite. It's amazing.
- [03:37]
Sarah
Why?
- [03:38]
Diana
I don't know. It's just cushiony. It's soft. It kind of feels like the grown up version of the drunk elephant Protini, if that makes sense. It's not too heavy and it just really works. Honestly, since using, like, a combo of her products, I feel like my skin looks so good. I used to have acne growing up, so I'm in like, a constant journey of just, like, trying to fix my skin and my scars. And honestly, I think that's why I love hair so much is because it's like my security blanket of my skin. But now that I'm older and wiser, I feel like my skincare is much more dialed than it was back in the day.
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Sarah
Of course.
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Diana
Yeah.
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Sarah
And now I'm just like. I like to stick what I like to stick to. Obviously, we have to test things for our jobs, but I always go back to my staples that make things easy.
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Diana
100%.
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Sarah
Okay. Wait, was that five?
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Diana
I think it was five. A lip, a foundation, a dry shampoo, a moisturizer. We have one more. What else is on my face or
- [04:26]
Sarah
body or body or just Anything that you're really excited about right now?
- [04:30]
Diana
Loving right now, honestly. I love the you beauty barrier Mist. Have you guys tried it? It's a new product. I love everything you read. Tina's amazing. Same seeing her later. Literally an incredible mist. And I feel like sometimes mist can dry you out and this one doesn't. It's like a good setting but also hydration. It's so good. She's incredible. Yeah.
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Kirby
Can you give us your three minute brand story for those who are not familiar with Crown Affair?
- [04:52]
Diana
Yeah. So I launched Crown Affair the end of January 2020. So we're about six years old. But before that, I spent an entire decade in the consumer space. So I grew up in a really small town in South Florida. My dream was to go to NYU. I went to NYU when I started college at the end of the 2000s, I was like, I'm going to work for Anna Wintour. I'm going to work at Conde Nast. I'm going to be an editor. But by the time I graduated college, it was the early 2000 and tens. The world was changing and I was working for Emily Weiss. So I was at into the Gloss. I was one of the first employees with Nick Axelrod and Emily Weiss at Into the Gloss pre Glossier. That was where I caught like, I mean I've always loved beauty and self care, but that was where it kind of like opened my world. And I joke that I was born in the comments section. Like, I'm not some like exec from like a boardroom at a corporate company. It's like I live for the culture of beauty online. And I remember setting up like affiliate links for the early days of E commerce in a way. And from there I worked. I was an early employee at a lot of consumer brands. Spring Outdoor Voices, Harry's. I worked at away. I was the eighth employee at the luggage company. Away was head of brand and partnership. So I've worked in the consumer space for a really long time. I have the 10,000 hours of building a brand, understanding what this takes. And I've always been obsessed with hair. And I was the friend who was like, what shampoo should I get? People looked at me like I had 10 heads when I told them that I was using a $250 hairbrush. Like, people just didn't get it. Because so often in this industry we rely on a stylist or an expert who are amazing artists to help us and fix us. The whole industry is like, fix, tame, manage. There's no love and there's no, it's very rare that there's like a connection that you have with your hair on your own at home. And I always call it like the 60 to 90 days beyond the salon. So I had a very dialed Google Doc that was the 12 things that I would do between my hair appointments with my stylist that I would always do from like brushing my hair with a really nice hairbrush, using a hair towel, the different shampoos and conditioners. Just all the things that I realize people don't. No one's taught this unless you care enough to take care of your hair. So that Google Doc went viral. This was in 2018, pre tech talk. And that was the light bulb moment. I'm like, wow, it's so crazy that everything in this doc is a luxury salon brand and then everything that's new or clean doesn't work or like isn't dialed. I was really creating what I did not see in this category, which, which is formulations that are better for you but also are high performance and actually work and are the same ingredient level, caliber as all the gorgeous salon brands that I was using, but felt really disconnected from how I was using it and how my friends and I were talking about hair at home.
- [07:23]
Sarah
Okay, can I ask you a controversial question? Go for it. As a brand founder who has a clean beauty brand that you started six years ago, how has clean evolved for you in this space Space? Because coming from both of us, we start to see the consumer become a little bit more interested in, okay, why are you promoting clean when now everything is quote unquote clean. So how do you take things now? As the founder of a brand that started being clean, not controversial at all.
- [07:54]
Diana
And actually one of my favorite topics to talk about, the most important thing is that it performs anything clean in any category. And I've tried so many clean haircare brands and if the product doesn't work, I'm not using it. I don't care what it is. To me having full formula approvals through Violet Gray. Number one thing, they don't care about clean. Quality, performance, prestige. That is what matters to me. Where I saw opportunity really in terms of the formulations was just better quality. I do not think clean as a brand pillar. I've said this hundreds of times. Two brand pillars that came out a lot when six years ago. Clean and sustainable. Those are not brand pillars. Those are product promises. So you cannot build a brand on clean or sustainable. That's what the product is delivering. You build a brand on a real brand system and brand Ethos, ours at Crown Affairs. Time, the whole core pillar of the brand is built around time. That is the ecosystem. Time is the ultimate luxury. It is the core currency that we have. My job as a brand founder is to take so much time to deliver you, the customer, the most elegant solution so that you can actually take your time back, whether that's getting one more day before wash day, whether that's. Or whatever. It is just like finally understanding your hair so you can actually save more time in the long run, versus it being a chore.
- [09:06]
Kirby
As you mentioned, you worked for all these incredible brands. As Kirby mentioned, you are very chic. You have an eye. How did you nail down the aesthetic of Crown Affair, specifically this mint green color?
- [09:18]
Diana
Yeah. So, first of all, thank you. Because I grew up in a family that didn't know anything about art, was not a part of this world at all. But I studied art history in college, and when I was like, 15, I was the person ripping out the pages of Vogue and W and studying the credits like it was Bible and putting it on my wall. So I've always loved beautiful things, and I'm drawn to objects. The Crown Affair green comes from. Do you guys know Ed Ruscha, the artist? He's amazing word and image artist. He's probably my one, my favorite living artist right now. It came from an Ed Ruscha Gagosian catalog. He had a show in 2008 at Gagosian and the London Gallery. The most beautiful catalog I ever saw. I saw it at, like, an antique book shop in New York, and it's called Busted Glass. And I bought it. I think it was, like, 20 bucks. I was like, I love this book so much. And I remember saving that down. This is when I was working it away. I started working on, like, mood boards. I was like, if I ever start a brand, one day, this is the brand universe. So the Crown Affair green is actually from an Ed Ruscha catalog. And then the orange and all the other tones are from a six panel series of his work that he recently had at his MoMA retrospective. And actually, like, there's a lot of references to art history within the brand. Even the name itself, Crown Affair comes from the film the Thomas Crown Affair. My husband and I met in 2013 at a. At MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art. It was a Renee Magritte curatorial walkthrough. And I don't know if you've ever seen the Thomas Crown affair, the 1999 version. There's the Renee Magrit in there, and that was the hero Image for the show that we met at. So there's a lot of art historical things, but I don't know, I love design, I love art. I think we live in a world where there's just like so much online now that pulling physical things is so important. Knowing the context, not just like finding a reference on Pinterest, but really like knowing the history of this stuff. I think it's felt in the soul. I think you can feel the difference when there's a brand that has intention behind everything. But yeah, the green that I'm really excited that green's kind of having like a moment right now because I feel like it was pink for a long time in beauty, which we love too. But it's really cool to kind of like spot crown affair down the aisle at Sephora and see the little like Zen energy of it.
- [11:17]
Sarah
I have a feeling Sarah and I both know this, but what is your best selling product and was it the product you knew would perform best?
- [11:25]
Diana
No. I find this happens often as a founder. You're like, I'm just gonna put this thing into the world. The thing that you think might be your hero product never is. And the customer will always tell you what your hero product is. So. So our best selling product, I don't want to say it's a three way tie, but the product that kind of put us on the map, the dry shampoo, that at one point we were the number one dry shampoo at Sephora. I remember like a field team person from Amica was like, I didn't know who you guys were until the dry shampoo. Like that was the thing that I think put us on the map in that world. But our leave in conditioner is a top leave in conditioner in the, in the category. And then our towel as well is, is a best selling product. So I think that towel alone, I think we sold almost like 50,000 towels last year. And that was up over like 400% year over year during holiday, which is crazy just to see the growth of these things over time. But the dry shampoo kind of changed the category, I think. And you know, for me it's just about. I had no idea. I honestly thought her hair oil would be the hero product. And I remember meeting with Priya at Sephora, who's the queen of Sephora, and our first meeting ever, this is before we even launched in Sephora. She's like, the dry shampoo is going to crush it. And I was like, really? I remember getting off of that meeting with her and our whole Merchant team being like, I don't know. I don't. I don't know. This feels complicated. But. But the truth is, and I think one of the big learnings that we've learned about Sephora, too, is that the client is really going in super excited about makeup. So to create a product that is, like, really just one little half step away from a makeup experience, which is essentially a translucent powder and a kabuki brush. And then, of course, the formulation itself, you know, we use ground Japanese persimmon powder from Japan. We use tapioca starch, no talc. It's really cool to see many people in the category launch their versions of powder. This one I know, and I think is the lead. I mean, it's one allure. Best of beauty twice. It was just included in Women's wear daily. Best 100 products of all time.
- [13:06]
Sarah
Not for nothing. Mark Townsend uses this on Dakota Johnson's banks.
- [13:11]
Kirby
Yeah. And we're like, say less. I need this right now. That's all we need to know.
- [13:16]
Sarah
That's the only endorsement you will ever need. I mean, outside of the allure, outside of the best products of all time.
- [13:22]
Kirby
And saying that, you know, when she styles her own bangs, which she often has to do, she. That's, like, her routine. She uses it, like, easy. That's what I love about it, too.
- [13:32]
Diana
It's, like, easy and, like, it's like
- [13:34]
Kirby
a fun experience, too. And it's a beautiful brush. I just love that product so much.
- [13:39]
Diana
First of all, I agree. Mark is the North Star. I think, in hair, we all know this, whether it's Dakota or the Olsen. Like, he knows. He knows the deal, and he's incredible, and I love that he loves it. And honestly, I, as I said, I have deep respect. My stylist, all of the experts in this category, I admire them. I studied the credits, like I said. But my vision with Crown Affair has always been to create things that are intuitive for us, because I'm not going to wake up with the experience that Mark has. You know what I mean? So it's amazing that someone like him loves the formulas and products, but I also want to make sure that they're fun and intuitive, because that, to me, is where the opportunity for innovation is. Otherwise, hair can feel really, like, complicated and, like, you don't know how to do it right.
- [14:18]
Sarah
Do you have any fun stats or anything that you can share regarding the dry shampoo about how successful or influential it is outside of the awards that it's won?
- [14:28]
Kirby
Yeah.
- [14:28]
Diana
I mean, a being the number one Dry shampoo at Sephora is huge because I was using, I mean, the aerosol dry shampoos there that have been on the shelves for 20 years. To finally unseat those people was a huge moment. And then I have to be honest, I have to ask my team. I know, like two years ago there was, I think one sold. I want to confirm. I don't want to say it right now. I have to circle back. I don't have it. But at one point it was like the fastest moving dry shampoo. And we'll see what happens with the travel. I think hair is a funny category. It takes people a little bit longer to try stuff people get really excited about, like a blush or a lip. But what I'm really excited about is kind of changing that perception and I hope that travel size, which we haven't been able to do because, you know, I'm still an independent brand and I think the customer doesn't always know that. It really takes time to introduce these things. I wish I could do everything all at once and be everywhere. But it is a little bit of this, like, slow and steady growing with us that I think is also helped us build the cult following as well.
- [15:23]
Kirby
We talk about this all the time, but, you know, like you said, hair is really hard category, especially at Sephora when people are coming in for the blush and, you know, the makeup. So would you say that most of your customers are finding you at the store or is it through online? Like, how are you selling Crown Affair?
- [15:42]
Diana
It's such a mix. I always say we have kind of two customer subsets. So one is like our DTC customer and our goop customer, our violet Gray customer. She's buying across the whole portfolio. She's buying the whole ritual. She wants the towel and the scrub and the dry shampoo and the leave in and the this and is buying it for her daughter and maybe also her mom. That's one of the really cool things about Crown Affair and the way we've built the brand system is it, in my opinion, is a timeless one. So we have girls that love our little scrunchies that are 16 or whatever, are saving up. And then we have women in their 60s and 70s who use the product. And, you know, some of our top customers could be a woman in Dallas who's 57 years old, who's not posting on the Internet, you know, so. Or really. And maybe she's looking. But to your question, it's like, how do. How do they find out about you? And that's why I'm a really big believer as like a marketer and storyteller of creating this perfect storm. Because maybe that 57 year old woman pops into the north park in Dallas with her daughter and her daughter's buying something else, but she kind of spots this, you know, or maybe she read an article like Gwyneth was like, this is my favorite shampoo conditioner or whatever it is. So it's all these different touch points. We're definitely not like a digital first brand which I think has kind of come to bite us a little bit like in the end. But at the same time it's created this even heat of Crown Affair feeling a little bit more like a. A stumble upon secret. We're also not a growth at all cost brand. Like early days even. Like I think we were spending like 5k a month on like retention retargeting. That's nothing like I came from consumer brands that in the time that we started sitting down and talking would have spent half a million dollars on paid ads. So just a lot of learnings. I think grassroots word of mouth, especially for me, like for anyone out there listening who's like, I'm not a celebrity, I'm not an influencer, I don't have a huge audience. It is harder to build today. But I do believe there is a way to do it and have it kind of be this grassroots perfect storm. It just, it takes a little bit more time.
- [17:27]
Sarah
You mentioned working at AWAY and working in brand partnerships. Are there any insights you can share from Crown Affair in terms of creators, influencers, collaborators that have really moved the needle for your brand?
- [17:40]
Diana
Yeah, it's such a good question. I would say at a really high level, it's so nice to have amazing women who love the brand that are very known, whether that's Gwyneth Dakota, Rosie Huntington. I mean so much love from the celebrity side. A lot of influencers love the brand as well. People are always like, I found you found out about you through Hannah Chodi. I found out about you through Courtney Grow. Like that's amazing too. And I think they really do move the needle. What's key is it not being one off? What's key is it being authentic. So you see Hannah doing her my twist and clip air dry. The funny thing about this, and this is hilarious for say out loud, is like I have somehow become a big part of selling Crown Affair, which was never the plan. Like I knew I would be an external founder and like interviews like this or Vogue article, but I never thought I'd be Making content. And I'll use Hannah as an example. Like, I did this. I have this twist and clip method on TikTok. Thought literally nothing of it. Like, I posted it for the first time, I think, in 2022. Me twisting my hair, put a Harry style song over it, walked away to have dinner, opened my phone five hours later and it had 4 million views. These were the good TikTok days. By the way. When I tell you I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea. But Hannah now and her sister Brett, who's also online, they do Diana's twist and clip method. So it's this, like, that's been really powerful. And then, you know, I actually think just authentic community. Like, we have a mentorship program called Seedling, which is an eight week mentorship program. We've had over 700 women be a part of the program. It is totally private. We have a private LinkedIn group. It's not about sharing it or posting it, but I think those elements of community are so important. And like, you could look at the Seedlings and be like, oh, are they customers? But like, most of them are. And it's them at lunch with their friend. At lunch with this being like, have you tried this hair towel? Have you? This like that, to me is still the most powerful way to grow a brand.
- [19:28]
Sarah
Totally. Okay. You closed on $9 million of Series B funding led by True Beauty Ventures in 2024. Congratulations. In layman' that means you have an audience and a solid product that is clearing yearly projections. And you're in a growth phase still, which is kind of crazy because I feel like everybody, when we talk about what are the hair care brands you're using and loving? It's Crown Affair. So the fact that you're still growing is really exciting. $9 million, though, sounds like a lot of money to most people. But we had a previous guest on David Yee of Good Light. He is Sunset, or has Sunset his brand by the time this will go live? And he really shed light on the fact that a lot of money needed to run a healthy business in retail. He was in every single Ulta in the country, right?
- [20:16]
Kirby
Yeah.
- [20:16]
Sarah
Are you in every single Sephora in the country?
- [20:18]
Diana
As of this month, we are in every single Sephora in the country. Congratulations.
- [20:22]
Sarah
But also, holy, holy that. Scary. Terrifying. So what does that 9 million help Crown Affair do that it couldn't previously do?
- [20:33]
Diana
So I have so many thoughts on fundraising in general, and I think every single person has their own circumstances. You have to play the cards. You're dealt. I came from a decade of growth at all cost, consumer businesses that were raising hundreds of millions of dollars. And I fundamentally believe that you can overraise. And there's a line from that movie with George Clooney, the Descendants, where he's like, give your kids enough to do something, but not enough to do nothing. I have the same philosophy with fundraising. So $9 million sounds like a lot. And I don't want to say it isn't. It's enough to do something, but not enough to do nothing. And what ends up happening when you over raise and overvalue and you know, pretend like you're a tec, you end up having too much, that you do not have the constrictions. And I'm a really big believer as someone who, you know, this is the thing. I had a dream of starting this brand. I didn't have a pot of gold somewhere to do it. I knew that I would need to fundraise. My experience was at funded brands. So for me that was a really smart decision. But I really think if you're thinking about starting something, you need to look at your resources, what's around you, what makes sense. Not all investors are created equal. It really is a marriage. And I say this all the time, philosophical alignment on your brand and growth is the thing that matters most. Because I took so many investor meetings and with my background, people are like, oh, you're going to be the away of of hair or the this of hair. And I'm like, no. It was funny. It was working at Harry's, the razor company, that really opened my eyes to just like the P and L and like, how important. Yes, the D2C business, I think at the time this was 2017, was 10% of the business. The rest of the business was Target, Walmart, Costco. And that was the first time I ever worked at a quote, D2C brand. But really under the hood, it was not a D2C brand. It's a different strategy. So when I was fundraising and talking to investors, I'm like, it's really important that we're in retail because not everyone's going to wake up. And this was also the writing was very much on the wall. I think even pre2020 and pre Covid that like cost per customer acquisition, this stuff was all shifting. You know, I was running these programs at Outdoor Voices, at away at Harry's. So I started to see what was happening. And with Crown Affair, I just knew that I wanted to build this in a responsible way that doesn't mean slow, but it also means I need to count every single dollar that I have and know where it's going. And you do need capital, especially if you're building a luxury brand. And I have so much admiration and respect for creatives. I want to hire amazing people, talent, photographers. I want to pay influence, you know, I want to do what I can. So I'd say my weird superpower. And honestly, I learned this really well from Emily Weiss back at into the Gloss is like how to make things feel really elevated on a pretty scrappy budget. And honestly, most of that money goes to wages, Most of that money goes to inventory. Most of that money goes to things that are not the sexy things. And it goes very fast, but it helps you keep. There's a line that's like things can be style if you make them so. And I feel this way with clothing. Like you don't have to have all the money. It's how you take the time to style it. But it's nice to have a little money to buy a couple investment pieces, right?
- [23:28]
Kirby
Yeah.
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Sarah
It's funny because I think a lot of people read these headlines in Trade Publications about $9 million in funding and they then hear that a brand isn't able to like meet somebody where they're at in terms of influencer payments. And I'm always thinking in the back of my head, what do you think the $9 million, it's not all going to influencer marketing now.
- [23:49]
Diana
It's going to your three PLs, it's going to wages, it's going to admin, it's going to talk, it's going to. It goes so fast and we've all seen this so many times and you get on this treadmill and what has been positive, I think about COVID and this conversation is it's kind of gear shift that it used to be all about top line revenue and growth and now the conversation is about EBITDA and profitability. So you gotta time it, know your product market fit, know your numbers. It's different for every brand. For Crown Affair, we grew the business, we doubled it year over year consistently. 1 million, 2 million, 4.6, 8 point something. 20 just did almost 40. Like it's just doubled year over year and we're now profitable. It's thin but like we're profitable. And once that the beauty of beauty is that compounds. But yeah, it's no joke. And obviously you want to have beautiful fixtures. You're hiring field teams, you are opting into these experiences. Like it's no joke, sampling just like the hundred point sample, like every dollar and penny counts and you have to be really like mindful about what you say yes to. And this is why if you don't have the experience of working consumer or the 10,000 hours of running a business, you don't know where to say yes and no. And it can be very quick that you have to back out of these situations.
- [24:59]
Sarah
You know, you mentioned the cost of customer acquisition. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Because a lot of our listeners are customers, so they have no idea what this means. We do have our niche experts that often listen to us shout out to the C suite at Sephora. But I would love to to hear even for mine and Sarah's, you know, point of view.
- [25:21]
Diana
What does that mean?
- [25:22]
Sarah
What does that mean? What does that take? Yeah, because oftentimes when we're watching things on TikTok, I don't know about you, but I'm served a lot of like the behind the scenes beauty stuff. Like people want to know who's running Alex Earle's brand. Oh, they came from Set Active, they came from Rode, they came from Rare or jvn should have been acquired for this much because their cost of customer acquisition is this much and they're also doing great numbers. So can you kind of explain that a little bit?
- [25:49]
Diana
I'm howling right now that you guys are asking me because everyone who I've ever worked with before in E commerce is like you're asking her the brand girl on that side of the house. No, I mean I'm going to give you the layman terms of it because this is not my area of expertise and I have an amazing team and like we're not like a. I always say it's like casino games. Like truly it's about putting money and spending. But cost per acquisition is how much it costs to acquire a customer. So different businesses have a different number. Maybe a furniture brand, it costs $300 to acquire a customer and that's aggregated and paid marketing spend. There's a calculation that calculates it. Again, I'm not the person to explain that supplement brands could be 90 per customer. But if that's a subscription business, you can get paid back on that really quickly. For us, it varies and the cac, cac they changes based on how much you need to spend and what is happening on Meta and all of this. For us, this is where it's really important to know your margins, your cost of goods. Our AOV ranges from 80 to $120 on our D2C, which is very high for hair care. And that's because we have beautiful tools, different products. So if our CAC ranges from. And my team is like, Diana, these aren't real numbers, but let's just. It is like they're around 25 to 35 on average. $25, $30. We're getting paid back on first purchase. So if we're spending that money, we're getting paid back. We can make the business profitable. It can be a very slippery slope if your CAC is super high or your product is a $12 lip balm and you also have shipping. And it's just, it's a blended formula of, like, how much it costs to acquire a customer through paid spend. I think there's an element too, of like, how much it costs to ship, like, all your wear. There's a. There's a number that it gets to where it's like, this is the cost for this customer that's blended. And it's different for every business.
- [27:27]
Sarah
Yeah. And I, I think a lot of people don't even realize that that is a function of a business. Like, they think, like, there's cost to manufacture these things and like ship them out, but they're not thinking, oh, there's also a cost to acquire me as a person. Totally invest in your brand.
- [27:42]
Diana
And that's why we're seeing so many brands launch that, that have existing audiences, because the cost per acquisition is so much lower. And there's a term that you guys, I'm sure are familiar with, but earned media value. Emv. And EMV matters. That's why you're seeing huge tick tockers on red carpets. That's why you're seeing Kim Kardashian as the number one billing on Orion Murphy show above Glenn Close and Sarah Paulson, who are insanely talented actors. And Kim's actually a pretty good actor herself. Like, I'm not saying that, but there's a very clear decision, which is earned media value. Because otherwise the business, that company, that whatever it is that's producing it has to spend money to acquire. Metaphorical customers. Audience. It's why it's really hard to launch a business today unless you have existing. An existing audience.
- [28:24]
Sarah
Yeah. That's why they tell everybody to get on TikTok and start making content.
- [28:28]
Diana
Honey, that's. I joke. I'm like, I work for TikTok.
- [28:31]
Sarah
Just a reminder, brands, we've been doing this podcast for seven years. We have a built in audience. We have a very strong community.
- [28:41]
Kirby
When Navigating the hair care market. What do you think is the worst thing you can do before buying a hair product? How can you ensure that the product you're buying is going to deliver?
- [28:50]
Diana
Everyone's hair is so different. And that's part of why I love building Crown Affair is I'm very much clear that I'm one woman with one hair type. And my entire mission isn't just about getting people to buy crown of hair products. It's about getting people to connect with their hair and understand it in the first place. So it's such a personal decision. Take time to understand what your hair needs. Learn about your hair. Like it's actually kind of fun. Like hair is a fiber, right? It's really simple. It's like a sweater or a T shirt. You wouldn't wet a shirt and then stretch it out really hard or you wouldn't put certain things on it. Like your hair is really vulnerable when it's wet. Maybe you need to put products on, hydrating products on before you put a hair towel on. Maybe you need her. Whatever it is, I think testing stuff on your skin is really good enough. People don't do that with hair care products and everything we formulate at Crown Affair. I want to feel like a skincare product, even a hair gel. Like let's just use hair gel as an example. Because if you put a hair gel on your most hair gels, what you think of as hair gel or a mousse, you put it on your right here, you're going to want to wash that off. That's great. It's going to get sticky, flaky, crunchy. You're putting that on your hair. So for me I'm like, I need this to feel luxurious and beautiful and that's where the ingredients are. So when you put it on and to me it's like touch, feel, smell. Like every single touch point. Especially smell too. Like people, you can get headaches from some of this stuff. Like also this is across beauty in general. And maybe it's more of a founder led thing. But do your research on the brand, do your research on the founder. Like I was just even looking at some of my makeup products this morning from Mario cl. There was something from say I'm like, I was looking at, I'm like the fact it's such a gift to know all these founders but I know how much soul they put into it. I know how much they are trying and testing and loving these products. And I think if you're a consumer and you're like, there's so many brands, I don't know where to start. Look at some interviews with the founder or the senior leadership team because you will tell how much they care. They will not put things into the world that they don't want to use on their own.
- [30:40]
Kirby
We've all had them on the podcast, so listen to their stories.
- [30:43]
Sarah
When we were at Max and Helen's, you said that you would never make a certain product, and I cannot remember what it was. Do you remember this conversation?
- [30:52]
Diana
Yeah. I think if I had to guess, it's probably. It's not that I don't want to make it. It's because the holy grail exists and it does. Never needs to be touched, and it's impossible to make it, quote clean, which is the oribe dry texturizing spray. Oh, you know what the product was, though? And this kind of goes hand in hand. It's the Colorado Dream Coat.
- [31:07]
Kirby
Oh, okay.
- [31:08]
Diana
It's Colorado Dream Coat. Also an extraordinary skew in terms of performance. The lead ingredient, I believe at one point in time was, like, the same lead ingredient in fog machines. These things are not for, like, the health of your hair, but, man, do they perform. Like, when you put Dream Coat in, you're like, I am in. I am a superhero. You know, like, I love. It works. It's amazing. But by the way, heat activated. I see people walk into Sephora all the time spraying Dream Coat on. I'm like, it chemically, it needs heat.
- [31:33]
Kirby
Yeah.
- [31:33]
Diana
To work.
- [31:34]
Sarah
The whole point.
- [31:34]
Diana
It's the whole point. So that's, like, a really interesting thing. So there's certain formulas, at least right now, that I don't think Crown Affair will go into just because that's not our lane. And then dry texturizing spray, it's like 98 air, and you need to use an aerosol. And at this stage right now, we're just not using aerosols. We've tried airless pumps. There are tons of, like, clean, dry texturizing sprays, but, like, none of them are.
- [31:55]
Sarah
Or they don't deliver.
- [31:55]
Diana
They don't deliver. And this goes back to, like, I
- [31:57]
Sarah
just want the best before we let you go, because we've held you hostage.
- [32:01]
Diana
We know.
- [32:01]
Sarah
Sorry to run somewhere else, but you are so active on Substack. You're one of the only founders that is really in the weeds. And I say this because there are a lot of brands on Substack, but they post and they don't engage. They are not in notes. They don't know what the hell's going on. They don't know the conversation. I feel like if I asked you about, like, what was recently happening on the substack feed, you would know. Why are you still so engaged on Substack? As a founder who has like, maybe probably a million other more important things
- [32:34]
Diana
to do, I love it is the answer. I genuinely love the community on there. It feels. It reminds me of the OG Tumblr days and the notes. Like, people are really confused. They're like, well, I'm writing a newsletter, but it's not growing. I'm like, you got to get in the notes.
- [32:46]
Sarah
You got to get in the notes. You got to respond to people, you got to like things. You got to have your own take on other people's content and stories and writing.
- [32:53]
Diana
It's just so fun. I love it. It feels like a really safe space on the Internet. It feels like a space where people are taking the time to read things thoughtfully. And it feels like the tiniest bit of the antidote to the culture of, like, post a ton of things. For me, I respect my audience because I am her. And as much as I'd love to like post me, like dancing to a thing that's not my audience, you know, and no shade to the creators that are just dancing and lip syncing, I'm watching that stuff from time to time. But I respect my audience's time and I think substacks are really special space. I also think for founders in general, they're like, oh, I'll just hire someone to do TikTok. I'll just hire someone to do this. It's like you kind of have to get in the culture. I do think it's important if you're going to be external facing to be in the culture. I do identify more as a sub stacker than a tick tocker. I don't feel like an Instagram influencer, but like, be on these platforms, be in the DMs, be in the culture. It helps you connect the dots. And yeah, I think just doing is how you learn.
- [33:43]
Kirby
Yeah, I think you can really tell when someone does outsource their Instagram or whatever it may be. Like, you obviously are the person behind the substack in the notes that Kirby said. You're also starting podcast.
- [33:55]
Diana
I'm also starting a podcast which I have not announced anywhere yet. So this will time it out. It's coming this spring. It's called Take youe Time. Take your time is our mantra. I have it trademarked. It's on all of our packaging. It is My vision for this is a cortisol drop. It's meant to be more of like I really love, like Rick Rubin's podcast. I love the Artist's way. One of the things I do on Substack is my artist Way group chat. So we do that at the start of every year. It's a 12 week group together and it's about unlocking your creative potential. And that is my real joy. Beyond Crown Affair is just helping people feel inspired so they can live their most creative lives. So I'm really excited. I'm sitting down with people that I've been so lucky to get to know through this industry in consumer. The other thing, I'm sure you guys feel this way and what's so special about why you've been doing this for seven years is you really get to know people. There's something different when you sit down and you're like, oh, we've been in the trenches together. And it's not just beauty. I recently interviewed my friend Heidi Gardner who was on SNL for eight seasons. Love her.
- [34:50]
Sarah
She has a hair background.
- [34:51]
Diana
She was a hairstylist.
- [34:52]
Sarah
Amazing.
- [34:53]
Diana
One of the first people I ever told about Crown Affair.
- [34:55]
Kirby
Amazing.
- [34:55]
Diana
And was one of my first testers. So obviously we talk about SNL and her life and growing up in Kansas and all this stuff and I'm really excited. I'm scared. This is no joke what you guys do. It's a full time commitment, but it's really just been whatever happens. I'm really excited for people to see the world. It's already been such a beautiful experience just being able to spend time with people that I respect and care about so much.
- [35:16]
Sarah
Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on the pod. We adore you, we love your products and we just love your vibe in general.
- [35:22]
Diana
Right back at you guys. Thank you for having me.
- [35:36]
Tim Spengler
Leadership used to mean having all the answers. But today's best leaders embody a more human approach.
- [35:41]
Jack Myers
I'm Jack Myers.
- [35:42]
Tim Spengler
And I'm Tim Spengler.
- [35:43]
Jack Myers
Tim and I have spent our careers inside media, marketing and culture.
- [35:47]
Tim Spengler
And we partnered with the Acast Creator Network to start Lead Human to answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world? The biggest tip for being a creator, It's a job.
- [36:00]
Nikayla Matthews Akome
What I learned from Michael Jackson. Here's a man who understands precision.
- [36:05]
Jack Myers
It's about answering the questions that are hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake.
- [36:10]
Tim Spengler
What we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use with your teams right away.
- [36:15]
Jack Myers
Subscribe to Lead Human with Jack Meyers and Tim Spengler wherever you get your podcasts.