The ‘Marked Safe from MAHA’ Campaign & The New Lash Economy

Summary

Gloss Angeles Podcast Summary

Episode: The ‘Marked Safe from MAHA’ Campaign & The New Lash Economy
Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Kirbie Johnson and Sara Tan

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Episode Overview

This episode covers two major topics impacting the beauty industry:

1. The "Marked Safe from MAHA" campaign and its challenge to beauty brands regarding misinformation around health and wellness, especially as it relates to the MAHA ("Make America Healthy Again") movement.
2. The changing trends in the lash economy, analyzing why mascara and traditional fake lashes are slumping, and how new lash innovations and aesthetics are taking over.

Kirbie and Sara also share pop culture observations, personal stories, and hot takes on recent headlines in the beauty space, all wrapped up in their signature witty, candid tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pop Culture Catch-Up (Sabrina Carpenter, Wicked, and Dream Academy)

Timestamps: 01:29–14:01

• Kirbie’s review of Sabrina Carpenter in concert:

  • Sabrina described as a “Polly Pocket diva,” with a distinct over-the-top style and tiny frame.
    • Notable quote: “It’s like if the Spice Girls had a baby with Dolly Parton. That is her look.” (02:00–02:10, Kirbie)
  • Discussion of fandom culture amplified by TikTok; pop stars now change nightly elements of their shows to drive fan engagement.
    • “You have to now, as a pop star, have so many elements of your show that change so that people tune in on TikTok every night…” (03:05, Kirbie)

• Observations about young fans singing explicit lyrics at concerts.

  • The moms capturing their kids singing along is humorously debated.
    • “They were singing ‘Motherfucker’ during Please, Please, Please. And the moms were filming it, like, getting a big kick out of it.” (05:52, Kirbie)

• Wicked musical experience and the universal thirst for Jonathan Bailey.

  • Sara and Kirbie admit to being swept away by Jonathan Bailey, with candid, hilarious comments about yearning and expectations for male actors.
    • “What did men as a gender do to deserve Jonathan Bailey? I was like, this is not fair.” (08:44, Kirbie)

• Ticket struggles and K-pop stanning.

  • Sara shares her quest for Dream Academy (K-pop group) tickets and desire to meet member Sofia Laforteza, also noting the increase in Asian representation in pop. (10:56–11:26, Sara)

• Local LA mall parking hacks (bonus content for LA locals only).

  • Kirbie and Sara give tips on the best places to park at Century City Mall, underscoring their frequent mall-related discussions.

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2. Beauty Headline: The "Marked Safe from MAHA" Campaign

Timestamps: 15:39–27:11

• Context:

  • MAHA = “Make America Healthy Again,” a movement linked to RFK Jr. that markets itself as “preventative health,” but pushes anti-vax and anti-science rhetoric.
  • Influencer Whitney Wagner Hartley (@hellowhitney) started a campaign urging beauty and wellness brands to:
    1. Publicly oppose MAHA
    2. Refuse partnerships with creators who spread similar misinformation
    3. Share science-backed, inclusive health info

• Brands participating so far: Cocokind, Parallel, Corpus Naturals, Bayo, 14th Night, Cat Beauty, Moo, and The Great.

  • The intent is not to boycott, but to provide clarity to consumers on which brands reject MAHA and misinformation.

• Discussion and analysis:

  • Kirbie calls the campaign “very interesting” and stresses the dangers of MAHA-aligned pseudoscience:

    • “Let’s just go through some of the statements that RFK has made... there is a long list of things he has said, essentially condemning longstanding science-backed research.” (18:09, Kirbie)

  • The hosts address the manipulative tactics aimed at moms, especially using fear around children's health:

    • “This just feels like a way to cause more intentional pain to pregnant women. And not only that, scare pregnant women ... the issue that we have with clean beauty is... causing more problems by not reading every ingredient on a label and then essentially hurting themselves or hurting their children ‘due to toxicity.’” (18:36+, Kirbie)

  • Both hosts are skeptical that major retailers (e.g., Sephora, Ulta) will sign the pledge:

    • “If she’s expecting huge brands with major, major influence to sign onto this, they’re not going to... nobody is trying to rock the boat when it comes to this administration for obvious reasons.” (20:50, Kirbie)
    • “Sephora’s not touching this. Sephora is not going to do it. No, no, not even close.” (22:58, Kirbie)

  • Commentary on the “pipeline” of new moms to far-right conspiracy:

    • “The pipeline of motherhood to far-right conspiracy theorist is so crazy ... I’m not blaming the consumer. I’m blaming the people that are, like, indoctrinating.” (23:46+, Kirbie)
    • “As a mom, you’re just trying to make the best choices for your kids. And if you keep hearing from people that you follow and admire that whatever you’re feeding your child is killing them, then sure, you like, Oh my God.” (24:52, Sara)

• Meta commentary:

  • The hosts note that those spreading MAHA talking points rarely accept invitations to defend their views on air.
    • “What I’ve told Sara before is we’ve tried to get people on this podcast with opposing views to come on and talk about their stance... and nobody does it. And why is that? Because they can’t.” (25:36+, Kirbie)

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3. The New Lash Economy & Mascara Trends

Timestamps: 27:14–39:41

Analysis of Business of Fashion report on lash trends:

• Decline in traditional strip lashes and classic black mascara:
  • “Lash products are down about 13% year to date... even classic black mascara has dipped nearly 10% in popularity.” (14:14, Sara)
  • Consumers shifting toward a more “natural, low-maintenance look”—ghost lashes, no mascara aesthetics (clean girl beauty vibe).
• Surge in under-lash and magnetic lash products:
  • “Ardell, once 95% strip lash, now gets almost half its wall space in sales from under lash products.” (14:14, Sara)
  • However, the boom in under-lash adoption may already be stalling.
• Lash serums and “skinified” (treatment-focused) lash products are gaining traction, with brands moving away from prostaglandins due to side effects.

Mascara innovation and consumer loyalty:

• Kirbie recounts an industry conversation:
  • “Converting somebody from their favorite mascara is so much harder than anything else ... It has to be truly a new innovation for someone to even consider buying a new mascara.” (29:28, Kirbie)
  • Rise of tubing mascara and new shades (brown, burgundy) is noted, but core habits persist.

Potential future innovation:

• Kirbie’s take: The dream is customizable mascaras—being able to pick formula and wand separately for a personalized experience.

  • “Should we be able to go into a Target one day and just grab ... the type of wand we want and kind of mix and match ourselves?” (33:13, Kirbie)

• Homegrown mascara hacks—Kirbie admits to swapping wands and being a “contamination nightmare.”

  • “If I really like a formula ... but I don’t think the wand is getting as close as I need it to ... I will, like, wash a mascara wand [and swap it].” (34:13, Kirbie)

• If a formula could truly hold curl without being waterproof and was easily removed, that would be a “game changer.”

Rise of under-lash and cluster lash products:

• Both hosts now exclusively use under-lash products, echoing new market data.

  • “I cannot tell you the last time I put a lash on top of my lashes ... I only do under lashes now.” (36:23, Kirbie)

• Kirbie speculates that Lashify (which innovated under-lash tech) may take legal interest in Ardell’s pivot to this market.

Predictions:

• Despite current trends, both believe glam lashes and mascara will cycle back—beauty is cyclical.
  • “I think people are gonna want glam. We’re already seeing it. Like, people want a full beat again.” (36:42, Kirbie)
  • “To me, all the people that I have ever spoken to who wear makeup, they say they couldn’t leave the house without mascara ... there’s no way it’s going away.” (37:10, Sara)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s like if the Spice Girls had a baby with Dolly Parton. That is her look.” (02:00, Kirbie)
• “Let’s just go through some of the statements that RFK has made … there is a long list of things he has said, essentially condemning longstanding science-backed research …” (18:09, Kirbie)
• “The pipeline of motherhood to far-right conspiracy theorist is so crazy … I’m not blaming the consumer. I’m blaming the people that are, like, indoctrinating.” (23:46, Kirbie)
• “What I’ve told Sara before is we’ve tried to get people on this podcast with opposing views to come on and talk about their stance on these things … and nobody does it … Because they can’t.” (25:36, Kirbie)
• “Converting somebody from their favorite mascara is so much harder than anything else up. Like, it has to be truly like a new innovation for someone to even consider buying a new mascara ...” (29:28, Kirbie)
• “I cannot tell you the last time I put a lash on top of my lashes ... I only do under lashes now.” (36:23, Kirbie)
• “I think people are gonna want glam ... You may think someone is fudgeing insane on Bravo and they need to be burned at the stake. And next season you’re rooting for them. Like, that’s what’s going to happen with mascara.” (38:08, Kirbie)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:29–14:01 — Pop culture: Sabrina Carpenter, Wicked, Dream Academy, and local LA mall culture
• 15:39–27:11 — In-depth: "Marked Safe from MAHA" campaign, controversy, and retailer response
• 27:14–39:41 — The New Lash Economy: Decline of strip lashes/mascara, consumer loyalty, customization, under-lash boom
• Throughout — Notable quotes, candid opinions, references to brands (Swede, Ardell, Cocokind, etc.)

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Conclusion

The episode blends insightful analysis of timely industry controversies (the MAHA movement, the intersection of motherhood and misinformation) with practical, relatable beauty talk (the evolution of the lash category, why we love or switch mascara, how trends truly shift). Kirbie and Sara’s real-world expertise and irreverent humor make this a must-listen for both beauty industry watchers and the average makeup fan.

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Questions for listeners (from hosts):

• What do you think about the “eyelash economy”—why do you think mascara/lash products are trending down?
• What is your desert island mascara or favorite lash combination?

Let them know your thoughts on social @glossangelespod!

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

G l a m los angeles.

[C]

Hi, kirby.

[B]

Hi, sarah.

[C]

Welcome to los angeles.

[B]

Friends. It happened. It happened. It'll have been a week since it happened, but I got to see our little pipsqueak diva Sabrina Carpenter in person.

[C]

And was she even smaller in real life?

[B]

Honestly, I was like, this is Polly Pocket, babes. This is Poly Pocket.

[C]

She's so cute too, because, like, her hair is so big and then the heels are so big. It just, it's like she's even tinier of a person because of it.

[B]

It's like if the Spice Girls had a baby with Dolly Parton. That is her look. Those big, chunky thigh high boots.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yes. When I went, she had a new pair of boots that I learned from the fans around us because they were all freaking out when she came out at one point with this new pair of boots on.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Because they were this powder blue color and then they had a little lock on them. And I was like, what is that? Because people were screaming at the top of their lungs when she came out in this outfit. Okay. So I was like, clearly something's happening here. And they were like, this is a pair of boots that have never before been seen on the concert, you know, road or whatever. And it was on theme for man's best friend. It was like a little dog tag that said man's best friend hanging off of her boots. Yes.

[C]

Honestly, fandom is just at like new Heights because of social media. It is just crazy what people know about their favorite artists.

[B]

You have to now, as a pop star, have so many elements of your show that change so that people tune in on TikTok every night to be like, what's the Juno pose gonna be?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, I think Sabrina does it such. Says such a good job because there's. Yeah, like you said, there's different elements to it and, you know, to look out for.

[B]

Yeah. She really caters to the millennials as well. I don't think she's a millennial. I think she means probably a few years.

[C]

How?

[B]

I think she's, like, actually true. Gen z, she is 10 years our junior, I believe. I believe maybe even younger. So I think she's true. I know another child of ours birthed from our womb, but she. Her whole show was called, like, the Short and Sweet Show. And so it was like a television show from the 70s, like, as if Sonny and Cher or one of those variety shows came back. And so that was the theme of the whole thing. It was really, really cute. I was a little disturbed at how young of a fan base she had because I gotta give a shout out. I got the hookup of the century, Alison Statter, who has this amazing perfume, Xoa. If you want a deliciously fruity perfume that does not smell like anything else out there, Xoa, I love it. I wear it with my product. But the deodorant, I actually don't know. That's a good question. I don't think so.

[C]

Okay. She's just so a woman of many talents.

[B]

But Allison has a very musical family. Just look up Irving Azoff and you can thank her family for keeping Nate Niles and the apple pan alive. Okay. Like, she's like an institution in Los Angeles, so we. We have her to thank for some amazing food. But I was, like, randomly posting on Instagram just like, anybody have a hookup at Sabrina Carpenter? She's like, just text me like, I'll get you there. And I'm thinking, okay. So cute. She's gonna get me some, you know, a pair of tickets. It's gonna be nice. No, she put me in the friends and family section. I got the Delta experience.

[C]

It's amazing.

[B]

It was a whole thing. However, there were so many industry people in my section with their children that I was like, I'm pretty sure the two girls next to us, they were wearing had to be a size small Sabrina Carpenter tour shirt, but looked like a dress on them. And they were maybe 7 or 8 years old singing some of these lyrics, which, granted, they don't know what Juno implicates.

[C]

Right.

[B]

They don't understand the move she's doing.

[C]

The Juno position, it just looks like a dance move. It's not like sexual unless you know what she's talking about. And then, you know.

[B]

But they were singing Motherfucker during Please, Please, Please. And the moms were filming it, like, getting a big kick out of it. So it's like, I think that maybe was their one night to get to say the actual word. Yeah, I know. It's funny. Zoe say motherfucker at the Sabrina Carpenter concert.

[C]

You know, I probably would. I probably would. I'd probably be like, this is like. It's one of those things where you're like, it's okay to say around me, but don't say it around your friends sort of thing, you know?

[B]

Right, right, right. Like, this is the one special night.

[C]

Safe to sing with me. We do not say this word. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I kind of. I mean, I try my best to not curse in front of her, but obviously I do, so ask me in a year.

[B]

I felt horrible at Wicked when she was sitting next to me because I was just like, talking normally, which includes a lot of cursing. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so. And Sarah's just like, it's fine.

[C]

It's totally fine. Also totally fine.

[B]

The.

[C]

The. Which I don't want to give any spoilers, but at this point, I think most people have probably already seen Wicked for good.

[B]

Spoiler alert.

[C]

If you haven't seen it, spoiler alert. The scene with Elphaba and Fierro, the love scene, if you will, in a very PG way. But she just had no idea what was going on. And then she was like, where's his shirt? She's like, what happened to his shirt? I was like, oh, you know, sometimes daddy doesn't sleep with his shirt on. She'll be like, why are you. I mean, Matt, like, he would tell everyone, like, he doesn't sleep in. Wears his undies to bed, he doesn't wear pajamas. Which I think is crazy because I'm like, I'm so cold, but so she'll be like, okay, yeah. Fyro's like, he just doesn't want to sleep.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm like, yeah, that tracks.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That tracks. That part of Wicked, though. Like, I was actually wondering what she was thinking was going on because all the grown ass women in our theater were. I was like, Grabbing people. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Like, this gay man and this lesbian woman are giving us the hottest scene I've ever seen while singing an effing song.

[C]

Taking his suspenders off.

[B]

And we're like, yeah, he's taking the suspenders. Girls screaming. It was like the freaking Beatles or something. Like, I felt like I was at an In Sync concert. I mean, people were screaming. And then when he's like singing behind her and like, correct.

[C]

Holding her shoulder, I was like, john.

[B]

What did a man do to deserve Jonathan Bailey? Men did not do to deserve Jonathan Bailey.

[C]

I'm not saying that you can't, obviously that you can't yearn for a man, but the way that Jonathan Bailey yearns on screen for a woman is just so good and so believable that you're just like, take me now.

[B]

No. What did men as a gender do to deserve Jonathan Bailey? I was like, this is not fair. And I will be completely honest with you guys. I, I did not watch season two of Bridgerton.

[C]

I know, I know. And I feel checked out sometime now.

[B]

I feel like it's a moral obligation if I'm going to lust over this man. As hardcore as I have. I got to watch Bridgerton Season 2.

[C]

I feel like the, the expectations are super, super high for you now, so try to go in with low. But for me, I did not know who the fudge Jonathan Bailey was before I watched Bridgerton season two. And I mean, I watched the first one and, you know, he was cute, but this, yeah, the second one, you're like, oh, my God, hands down, the best season of Bridger. I think I stopped after that because.

[B]

I, I had to keep going, unfortunately. I had to keep going for work. I had, I did not cover the second season, so I don't know really how that works, but I got it how to cover the third. And it's just, it's not my cup of tea.

[C]

No, it's not my cup of tea either.

[B]

The period stuff. Me neither.

[C]

But. Ugh. Jonathan Bailey. Yeah, I think gay rights.

[B]

What a man.

[C]

That's why. That's what happened. Gay rights.

[B]

Yes, gay rights. Gay rights. And yeah, we're, we're so happy for the gay contingents.

[C]

So happy for you all.

[B]

Could you not just be bisexual? Like, I would be fine with that. Like, let me have some kind of chance with this five foot seven little pipsqueak man.

[C]

Five foot seven.

[B]

That's why he looks so much taller than Ariana and Cynthia. Because they're all short females, tiny. They're all just so short. I know. They're all like you. They're all just like little you running.

[C]

Around in right there. Crazy. It's crazy. I am currently trying to figure out how I'm gonna get Cat's Eye tickets because they're so expensive and sold out, girl. So I don't know what luck. I don't know who I have to, like, pray to or sell my soul to. So check in. I mean, check in with me.

[B]

Those are gonna. That's a hot ticket in town. When do they come?

[C]

They come 1212. I can't make the 1213 show, but 1212, they're coming soon. I know they're gonna be at the YouTube Theater. And I was very late to watching Dream Academy. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Now I'm like, now my fan. I'm not like, fandom level of these girls. Like, I could never. But I'm. I'm pretty big fan now, and so I really need to meet my Filipino queen, Sofia Laforteza.

[B]

I'm actually shocked that they're at YouTube.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I think it's just like, I don't know, maybe they didn't expect to sell out. I don't think they. They anticipated this tour being so crazy. But yeah, it'll be forum sofi in the year, next few years. I bet all of you see them now.

[B]

Take some people. Take some people. All of Young.

[C]

I know. I'm like, they're not a real big press. Yes, they are. I really want us to have, like a big exclusive to the new Olive Young that's opening. There was a story that came out that was talking about how, like, the Pasadena one is going to be their big flagship. But actually the first one that they're opening is the one in Century City Mall. So all of Young will be at Century City Mall.

[B]

We need a partnership with Century City Mall at this point. How many times have we name dropped this fucking mall? Give me. We love this mall.

[C]

We love this mall. Give me a parking spot.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no. Okay. I actually have something to say about this, so tell me where you park. Completely irrelevant for people not living in la and for that we are so sorry. But if you live in LA and you go to the Century City Mall and you are always just driving around trying to find a parking spot, you don't go there enough to know because literally I drive in. I park in my same spot every single time without fail. Like, parking for me takes. I'm not kidding, five minutes from entering park by Macy's.

[C]

Where do you park by? Are you going to tell us?

[B]

I park by Macy's.

[C]

Macy's.

[B]

I parked by. Smart move, babes. It's not even sponsored. That's. That is added value. I parked by the Macy's.

[C]

I know exactly where that is.

[B]

Pacific sp Spot.

[C]

Okay. Yeah, no, I.

[B]

And it's without fail an easy. Yeah, lovely experience.

[C]

You can't fight with the people that are, like, trying to go up Nick. Near Gelson's. Or is it Bristol Farms?

[B]

Oh, hell no.

[C]

Is it Gelson's?

[B]

No, it's Gelson's.

[C]

It's Gelson. Like, that's. It's too. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Keep going. If you're going through the main entrance off of Santa Monica Boulevard, you've already failed. You've already failed. You've added any other entrance.

[C]

Minimum 15 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you're. It's nightmare fuel. So Macy's.

[C]

Or if you find one by the Bloomingdales, because then you can just take the elevator straight up to Bloomingdale's and then walk out of there. That's what I like.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I saw Kelsey love it. Kelsey Grammer there. The last time I was at Bloomingdales, I was like, sir. Okay, what you shopping for?

[B]

Gen Z listeners have officially checked out of this conversation.

[C]

Glams. You know how much Kirby and I love Tatcha and the founder, Vicky Sai. If you haven't heard our interviews with her, do that after this. On the show, she's shared how Tatcha is all about building tiny rituals that restore joy, which is very much needed in the year that is 2025. The dewy skin cream is that feeling in a jar. It's a luxuriously comforting moisturizer that plumps fine lines and seals in moisture for Tatcha's signature dewy glow. Fun fact. It is the brand's bestseller. A dewy skin cream is sold every 30 seconds. In a clinical study, 100% of the panelists showed immediate improvement in plumpness, suppleness, and radiance in just two weeks. It is transformative Japanese skin care that nurtures the skin and the mind, and it's why we love it so, so much. The best part is you can enjoy 15% off your first [e-mail] with code Los Angeles 15.

[B]

We're filming this the Tuesday a week ahead of time. Normally we h. We give it, like two or three days and then we air this episode. But because of the. The Thanksgiving holiday, we were just like, we don't want to have to like turn around the podcast super quick like by filming the day before. So also there's not going to be.

[C]

Major news because everyone's just shopping and eating. Like the news is like true Black Friday sales.

[B]

Like Cyber Monday.

[C]

Cyber Monday. That's it. But there are a couple articles that I stumbled across that I thought were pretty interesting. So.

[B]

Okay, the first one, tell me.

[C]

The first one is from Beauty Independent and it was written by Claire McCormick and the headline is the influencer led campaign calling on brands to publicly oppose Maha. Had you heard of this?

[B]

So I saw this on Beauty Independence Instagram.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But I don't know much more about it.

[C]

Yeah, so I didn't either. And I just think it's, it's pretty bold of this influencer and I had never heard of her before. So her name is Whitney Wagner Hartley. She goes by at hello Whitney. And she creates lifestyle, beauty, wellness content. Think she's a mom. She has like 80,000 followers and she launched a campaign called Marked Safe from Maha which is kind of lol, but it's I think, you know, safe from Maha. I think if you listen to the podcast, you know how, how we feel about this, where we stand and so I think this is actually pretty awesome. So if you are not familiar with Maha, that's Make America Healthy again. Someone actually asked me if they were like, what is Maha? I was like, oh man, I wish I was like offline like you were. But if you are online then you know it is a movement tied to RFK Jr. And it's, you know, it frames itself as preventative health focus, but it's very much like anti vax, anti science. So this influencer started to email beauty and wellness brands and retailers asking them to 1, publicly state that they oppose MAHA, 2 refuse partnerships with creators who promote MAHA aligned misinformation and 3 share science backed inclusive health information with their audiences. So she was able to get quite a few brands to sign on to this pledge. So Cocokind Parallel Corpus Naturals Bayo I think is how that's pronounced. 14th night cat, beauty Moo and the great. So she had said she contacted over 40 companies and those are the ones that are that have signed on so far. She told Beauty Independent that she didn't want this campaign to be framed as a boycott, but more so as a for values based shopping to let consumers easily see what brands rejected Maha and similar disinformation. What do you think, Kirby?

[B]

I. I think this is very interesting. So I saw this and I have a few thoughts first being anybody that says, you know, well, why wouldn't you want America to be healthy? Like, don't you want everyone to be healthy, especially our children? Of course. But I mean, let's just go through some of the statements that RFK has made. He suggested peanut allergies stem from aluminum and pesticides and vaccines. He's amplified debunked claims that Tylenol use in pregnancy causes autism. And I mean, there is a long list of things that he has said, essentially condemning longstanding science backed research that can help people and protect people. And we've seen an uptick in measles outbreaks since he has been instated in office. In his position, I think that they are using Maha similar to Maga to perpetuate this idea that we, this is urgent and that people are being injured, killed, whatever, from vaccines, from Tylenol. The thing that kills me about the Tylenol discussion is Tylenol is one of the only things that pregnant women can use to help with any type of issue that they may have in terms of pain. And this just feels like a way to cause more intentional pain to pregnant women. And not only that, scare pregnant women because we mentioned this on a past episode, but the issue that we have with clean beauty is this perpetuation that people are not doing enough and causing more problems by not reading every ingredient on a label and then essentially hurting themselves or hurting their children, quote, due to quote unquote toxicity. Which is just a bunch of bullshit at this point. Quite frankly, there are reasons to look for clean beauty. I know a lot of friends that may have psoriasis, skin issues, sensitivities where they're like, I have to ensure that this one ingredient is not in my products. And looking for clean typically helps with that. And I totally understand that, but. And I don't even blame the consumer for buying into clean beauty. What I do have an issue with are brands perpetuating it, retailers perpetuating it, and then also people that are not experts making claims perpetuating it with absolutely no. Nothing to back it up.

[C]

Nothing to back it up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no. So when it comes to Maha, like with this situation, I like, granted, I agree with Whitney and I, I like this, but part of me complicated. I don't think brands are actually, I mean I obviously there are brands that are, are doing this, but I think if she's expecting huge brands with like major, major influence to sign onto this, they're not going to. We've already seen huge corporations in the world bend the knee to Donald Trump out of fear that they're going to be taxed to death, find lawsuits brought upon them. Like nobody is trying to rock the boat when it comes to this administration for obvious reasons. So I can't see the big retailers she's probably reached out to or the bigger brands with more money that probably have people at the top that voted for this administration, you know, to do anything like this.

[C]

Totally. I think it's a very noble effort. Like, obviously we completely agree with her and I think there are so many brands out there, like the, I can't even remember their name but the sunscreen brand that is putting all the billboards about the beef tallow and like sunscreen is killing you. I'm not even, let's not even say their name. There are so many brands like that that exist that are scaring so many consumers who like you said Kirby, like we, they just want to use the products that are best for them and that are quote unquote, safest, but they don't know. So I think like, it's a great, valiant effort and I'm happy to see some brands agree and sign on, like Cocokind, which, you know, we know Priscilla is incredibly smart and I think everything that she does is, you know, backed by science and clinicals and Cocokind is one of the cleanest, if you will, brands out there. But I do think that it's too political for so many people to, to sign on. Like, I couldn't imagine a Sephora or an Ulta.

[B]

Sephora's not touching this. Sephora is not going to do it. No, no, not even close. None of, none of these big retailers are going to do anything about this, unfortunately. And you know, at the end of the day it should just be like, well, do you believe in science and do you believe in not perpetuating misinformation? Sign on to that. But given the acronym that's associated with it, they're not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. That's just the unfortunate reality here. And I want to look into, or maybe not even look into, but just discuss the fact that like the pipeline of, of motherhood to like far right conspiracy theorist is so crazy. And I think I've pinpointed where it starts because I've had two friends become.

[C]

Fall to the other side.

[B]

Absolutely, yes. And it's very concerning and honestly, like shocking to watch happen where you meet people that are very fair, very balanced in their point of view. Go from that to getting pregnant, to maybe potentially struggling to get pregnant, to falling down this rabbit hole of, like, okay, my beauty products are poisoning me. So is all my food. And. And then when they do get pregnant and have children, it's red 40 is killing us all. This is the end of days. We must support Robert F. Kennedy. Like, it is crazy to me that Red 40 is, like, the thing that's bringing all of these people together, and I should be studied. I mean, it has radicalized, like, so many women. And I don't blame the women. I think that's the thing that I keep trying to tell people is, like, I'm not blaming the consumer. I'm blaming the people that are, like, indoctrinating.

[C]

Yeah. Well, right. Because again, it's like, as a mom, you're just trying to make the best choices for your kids. And if you keep hearing from people that you follow and admire that whatever you're feeding your child is killing them, then sure, you like, oh, my God. Yeah, I don't want to use that. I don't want to use that. I got to tell my friends. I got to spread the word, you know?

[B]

Totally. It's totally.

[C]

Yeah. It's such a slippery slope. But I'm laughing because Kirby texted me. She was like, I had a bad dream that you.

[B]

I did. It was a nightmare, actually, that she was secretly Maha. And I was like, I don't know how we continue. It was actually probably a more. It was going to be a more interesting podcast for some people because it would have been, like, radical, right, with, like.

[C]

Like the View. The left view.

[B]

Yeah. No, literally, it would have been the View for Beauty, which, honestly, we should figure out our own version of that, because that would be kind of fun. But what you. What I've told Sarah before is we've tried to get people on this podcast with opposing views to come on and talk about their stance on these things and back up what they have to say, and nobody does it. And why is that? Because they can't. They can't debate it. They don't know how to debate with truth and facts.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Unfortunately.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's just a cold, hard truth.

[C]

Yeah. But kudos to Whitney.

[B]

I. I hope that it works out. I hope it works out for her, and I. I hope that this, like, you know, obviously, this is under the intention of, like, helping people, but, you know, I hope that it. It helps her in other ways. I just, unfortunately don't see this. Really.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

The. The last thing I'll say about this, Sarah, is. Did you notice the comments, though, on Beauty Independent? No, I didn't even See, listen, Beauty Independent. We love Beauty Independent. But a lot of the people that comment on Beauty Independent are like, if not completely Maha, totally maga. It's interesting to see like independent journalism in the beauty space. But then the commentary underneath the posts are like, well, why would anybody want to stop Maha? Like, it's like very much on the side of Maha versus this creator. Fascinating stuff, in my opinion.

[C]

Oh God.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like at least, very interesting.

[C]

At least. There's a lot of positives here, but I'm gonna, I'm not gonna read into those. Let's move on to the lash economy. I thought some of these insights were very interesting. This is a story from Business of Fashion by Rachel Griffiths. And honestly I, I did think that the insights were interesting, but I also was like, I think we knew this and I think that based on Kirby being a mascara expert and also we have had the opportunity now to pick the brains of our Los Angeles Confidential community and have learned some of this stuff already. But let's just go over it and see if it surprises any of you. So it said that traditional strip lashes and black mascara are slumping in the United States. Lash products are down about 13% year to date and similar declines are seen in Europe. Even classic black mascara has dipped nearly 10% in popularity. This is because consumers are moving away from obvious falsies towards more natural, low maintenance look. Think ghost lashes and no mascara aesthetics driven by this clean girl vibe, quote unquote. And the growth has shifted into lash derivatives like cluster under lashes and magnetic styles. Ardell, once 95% strip lash now gets almost half its wall space in sales from under lash products. But some retailers have already seen this mini boom stall especially for under lashes and individuals. They're also seeing lash serums and skinified lashes as a bright spot. So brands are reformulating serums without prostaglandins and adding skin care ingredients into lash products, tapping into this trend of treatment over transform. And then they end by saying mascara is not dead, but it is evolving. So there's the popularity of tubing formulas, brown mascaras, and more experimental shades like burgundy and glitter which are seen as accent. Mascaras are seeing growth which we have seen being used by our favorite influencers and celebrities.

[B]

Interesting. So I have a POV on this based off of personal experience. So I actually spoke to one of our mutual friends a few years ago about if I wanted to start a mascara brand, what would I need to know? Because as everybody listening knows, I love mascara. I can't grow hair anywhere else on My head, except for my eyelashes, apparently. Hence why I have hair extensions. But I love mascara and I love talking about it. I love helping people find their ideal mascara. And I have thoughts on, like, how certain mascaras could be improved, how certain wands could be improved, and how the shopping experience for a mascara could be improved in general. And he was like, so here's the thing. Converting somebody from their favorite mascara is so much harder than anything else up. Like, it has to be truly like a new innovation for someone to even consider buying a new mascara because you can get a cheap option at the drugstore or at your local Target or Walmart for I guess now like $12. So, like, why would you give that up if you already know and love it?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And there are certain elements of a mascara that people are trying to solve, such as, like no transfer, non irritating stuff like that. Which I think is why we're seeing the rise in tubing mascaras specifically. Now I've wondered many times, like, what's going to happen to the mascara world because it's really hard to launch a mascara and truly make it a big splash. I think Dibs did an amazing job with their double standard mascara, which we ceded to our listeners and they freaking loved it. And their feedback for the most part was sell the brow mascara in the rim by itself. Yeah. Because it was incredible. So, you know, seeing here that brown and like Burgundies and these glitter accents for mascara are being sold and thriving. Makes sense to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I also think we've also seen the rise of the non prostaglandin lash serums that's become really popular. And Swede is mentioned in this business of fashion article. Swede was the first dawn prostaglandin eyelash serum I ever tried. It worked for me, made my lashes even longer and I loved it. And the founder, Gabriella is fabulous. If you have not tried Swede, we've talked about it on this podcast. They make incredible products. Like their mask. Their mascara actually is really, really great. They have two options.

[C]

So in your opinion, in your dream world, like, what do you think the innovation needs to be for mascara? Like, in order for everyone to change the formula that they're currently using? Like, for you, like, what would blow your socks off?

[B]

I mean, I, I understand when mascaras are made, they're made. It's every component of it. Right. It's the brush, the formula, it's the wand, it's the wiper. The wiper is so, so important because it's, it essentially tells you whether or not, you're going to be able to have a ton of product on your wand, or it's going to remove as much product as possible and give you a different type of lash style. So I get that, but in my head, I feel like the consumer wants something where they can go in and essentially buy the formula and the wand separately. And you're. Because, you know, when you buy, like, a pack, it's like, you know, Maybelline.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like colossal mascara. It comes with the little top on the actual formula, and then the wand is outside of it so you can see what it looks like.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

When it's like, in that, in the paper packaging with the plastic, it's like, should we be able to go in to a Target one day and just grab this, this curling lengthening formula with the type of wand we want and kind of mix and match ourselves?

[C]

Yeah. That's so smart. Do you know anyone that does that with their current mascaras like that? They have a favorite wand, but they have a favorite formula and they mix.

[B]

Oh, I do this.

[C]

Oh, you do it.

[B]

Okay. I do this. Not with Giga Black Lash, because that is literally the most perfect mascara to ever exist. Just saying. But, you know, if I really like a formula and how it looks on my eyes, but I don't think the wand is getting as close as I need it to. To my lash line, I will, like, wash. Yeah. A mascara wand, which don't do as I do because I'm sure this is some kind of contamination nightmare for most people. Okay. But like, I do.

[C]

But I mean, but it's like similar to if you're using makeup brushes with literally any other makeup product.

[B]

Yes, I do. The thing that's weird is I use my cinema secrets to clean them in between. But I'll dip it in the mascara formula I want with a little skinny mascara wand to try to get to the base of the lashes. You know what I mean? And granted, it's not a perfect fix because the wiper may not grip the actual wand as well. And I might get too much product.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm always trying things out.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So I think, like, in terms of innovation, if they can find a ingredient that will keep your lashes curled without it being waterproof and it's easy to remove, I think that will be a total game changer because when Elise was on from Too Faced and she talked about that mascara primer, when she was talking about foreplay, she will put that on and then put on her mascara. And I mean, her lashes are curled and Lifted and they stay, and it looks great. And I know there are some other similar products like that on the market, but it's sticky, and it's kind of hard to remove. Like, you have to with your really delicate eye area and lashes. You don't want it to be difficult to remove. So I think that if we can find an innovation in that way, because tubing right now, I think it's just like, everybody wants tubing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It helps to keep it from transferring. It's easy to wash off. Like, people freaking love it. So we got to figure that out. Also, I wanted to say Sahara Lottie of Lashify may be using this story and another one of her lawsuits because it talks about how Ardell's underlashes account for a huge part of their sales at this point. And when I go into a store and I look at Ardell now, they may have, like, the demi wispies or strip, but it's literally everything else is all underlash. I cannot tell you the last time I put a lash on top of my lashes.

[C]

Same.

[B]

Like, I only do under lashes now.

[C]

Same.

[B]

I don't do anything else.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

It's crazy.

[C]

I know. I know. I don't even know if I know how to do it anymore.

[B]

Same. I'm like, it's too much work. It's too much precision. Like, let's just hook it bottom and.

[C]

Call it a day. And it just doesn't look as good. It doesn't look natural.

[B]

I agree. But I do disagree. I know that this, like, clean girl beauty thing, you know, it persists. It persists. But I. I think people are gonna want glam. Like, we're already seeing it. Like, people want a full beat again. Like, they are gonna want glam. And whether that's like a full blown, volumized lengthening mascara or a major lash, I don't think that.

[C]

No, the.

[B]

No mascara.

[C]

No, that's for, like a. That's like, maybe for one night out when you're trying to look like high fashion. But to me, all the people that I have ever spoken to who wear makeup, they say they couldn't leave the house without mascara. They couldn't live without their underlash, their extensions. I mean, you all know how Kirby and I feel about our lashes, but there's no.

[B]

Like, I'm wearing mascara now, and I feel naked. No. I'm like, oh, God, where's my mascara?

[C]

I am getting a full new set of lashes tomorrow, so I've been trying to, like, keep these for as long as I can, but I, I got my hair extensions out and I have like five lashes off. I'm like, I feel like a naked mole rat. I cannot wait to get my lashes. I just, I don't think. Yeah, like, maybe the preferences are changing colors and things like that, but it's like lipstick. I don't think that people are ever going to say that they don't want to, to wear mascara.

[B]

And it's all cyclical. Like, just like a Bravo show. You may think someone is fudgeing insane on Bravo and they need to be burned at the stake. And next season you're rooting for them. Like, that's what's going to happen with mascara.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

I've been loving browns, though. The brown mascaras I love. And I'm loving the brown eyeliners as well.

[C]

I was going to say, like, I have only worn brown, brown eyeliner for the last, like, what, four years? But I still have my black eyeliners. I'm not going to throw them away.

[B]

Same.

[C]

And I. And I'm not going to not use eyeliner.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

I don't know. It's very interesting though. And I was, yeah. The, the stat about Ardell's under lashes, we're like, whoa, that's crazy. That is crazy.

[B]

I know.

[C]

I, I think we need to do a social post asking people their favorite mascara. Have we done that yet?

[B]

No.

[C]

I think it would be fascinating. Your desert island mascara or like your mascara or your eyelash combination, your favorite underlash. And other people do that too. It's like they have a favorite lash, but then they have a different glue that they don't use.

[B]

Mine is the Kiss Kiss glue for the underlash. It's the best one. The black one. It's the best. It is the best.

[C]

I like the lash by one, but I also really like the Ardell lashes. So sorry, don't come out.

[B]

Don't sue me.

[C]

Please.

[B]

Don'T come after the consumer. Sahara.

[C]

Oh, my God, I'm scared.

[B]

Okay, well, that, that's a wrap on today's episode. Let us know what you think about this. The eyelash economy, is it? Why do you think lashes are down? We want to know.

[D]

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