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Gloss Angeles
Vicky Tsai Wants You to Think About Your “Joyspan” and to Fight Burnout With Balance
00:51:36
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- [00:01]
A
New products to launch, new people to develop, new goals to crush. Workday Go is designed for small and mid sized businesses. By bringing HR and finance together on one AI platform, you'll have everything you need to think big, go big and grow big. And activation is fast. It takes just 30 to 60 business days to get you up and running. Simplify your SMB on an AI platform, you'll never outgrow Workday Go.
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B
G L A M Los Angeles.
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C
Hi, Kirby.
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B
Hi, Sarah.
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C
Welcome to Los Angeles.
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B
Vicky.
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D
Hi.
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B
Welcome back.
- [00:50]
D
Hello.
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B
You guys repeat guests.
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C
We're not in a hotel room, we're in the studio.
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B
Yeah. Sitting at a coffee table. Do you remember we came to you in a hotel room with our mics?
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D
I remember that was so much fun.
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C
Sitting on a floor and praying that it was recording.
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B
I was like, hope it works. Yeah.
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D
I remember the room was cold and my nose kept dripping. Yes. Remember that.
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B
Yes, I do remember this.
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C
But still one of our favorite episodes and we're so grateful that you're back.
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D
Two of my favorite people. Congratulations on the incredible longevity of your podcast.
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B
Oh, longevity.
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D
The theme.
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C
That's the theme of the day.
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B
We love a call out. Okay, before we get started, I just want to say I read that in 2017 you told the Cut you would wake up at 4:30am and you traveled 90% of your life.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Is that still the case?
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D
Hell no. I sleep in till at least 5:30. Oh my God.
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B
You get that extra hour, girl.
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D
No. It's taken me a few years to like downregulate my nervous system and I think a lot of that was at the time I didn't realize it, but I think a lot of it was like my nervous system just nonstop. Nonstop running, running, running, running, running.
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C
Yeah. And previous to Tatcha, you were also traveling like nonstop. Like you have been traveling for like majority of your life.
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D
For 125 years of my career was always on the road working eighty to a hundred hour weeks. So I only stopped that pace of work. I still work, but I only stopped that pace of work in the last four, three to four years. And it's taken me that full time to like really recover.
- [02:27]
B
Yes. Because I love that you mentioned that you still work because Tatcha was acquired by Unilever, which was amazing. What, in 2019. Okay, so that happens. And I think that most of our listeners go, oh, your brand's acquired fancy free. You're retired. You can do whatever you want. You've gotten this big payout. You're still so active at Tatcha you are the DNA of the brand.
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C
Still making sure that the products are what you and Tatcha fans have always wanted it to be, through and through.
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D
Glad you feel that.
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B
We were talking about this before we came on the pod, but I know listeners, you're like, brands get acquired and then things change. And I don't like the product as much because the formulation has changed. I haven't experienced that. Dewy Cream is still that girl.
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C
That girl. And I think I've said this before, but my mom and my sisters, who you have generously, like, invited to events, and, like, they are part of the Tatcha, like, fam. They still to this day, I will post a product and I will get multiple DMs. It's like, mine, Can I have that? No, mine is from my mom. Cause she's like, it's hers.
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B
Wait, what?
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C
My sister's like, can I have that? I'm like, mom already asked for it.
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B
What was the event that every single woman was there.
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C
It was the one downtown. And then we had. You guys had the camera that, like, did, like, the spinning camera. Oh, my God.
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D
Yeah.
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C
No, that's what I'm saying.
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B
Evelyn was there.
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C
Vicky has always been so generous. And Tatcha like it just as a brand. Like, you feel that warmth and that connection.
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D
Oh, that makes sense. That makes me so happy that you still feel that. That's why we still work.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Yes. Yes. Okay, Vicki, before we get into the meat of things, what are three things that you always have as a founder? It can be beauty, but it could be, like, something you always have in your purse to keep you accountable on schedule. I just want to know, like, how do you keep yourself composed and on time?
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D
My phone, my. I have a. Like, a old school calendar that I map out my time with. And even though I use, like, a digital calendar for the actual appointments, I always map out a few months in advance so I can be choiceful about how I'm spending my time because that's our most precious resource. And I guess third thing would be probably an aromatherapy thing. I find that especially when I'm traveling or I'm stressed out, if I just keep something with me that can ground my nervous system really quickly through smell, it helps me keep a really clear state of mind. And I don't know about you guys, but I feel that the energy in the world is a bit fraught right now. So I'm just. How do I keep my energy up but stay really grounded at the same time?
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B
Right. Do you get a Lot of founders reaching out to you or when they meet you, saying, give me a piece of advice. What do you recommend? If you could recommend a product to them or would you say, is it like a physical calendar? Is it the aromatherapy pen?
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D
I think it's not a product per se. I think it's prioritizing their wellbeing. Because I think a lot of founders start things because they have a deep burning passion to create something in the world. But sometimes it's also coming from childhood stuff. It's overachievement. Where does that come from? And in pursuit of your goals, you can leave yourself behind. And so if I could do anything over again from my career, I would have actually treated my body with more respect. I would have cared about my mental health instead of just treating myself like a rental car, like I can just burn it out, get from point A to point B and then hope that I get another one, you know, no, we only get one body in this lifetime. So I just turned 47 and I'm like just now starting to really respect, like you have to slow down, you have to sleep, you have to talk about your feelings.
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B
Yeah.
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C
I feel like you have always had this really calm energy. Like even though it sounds like. And I know that you like work your ass off and you, you know, are travel, you were traveling all the time and you know, doing all these different things. But like you have always been so like just being around you, like makes me feel calm. Like don't you feel that way?
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D
Thank you.
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C
Do you, do you meditate? I know like we have met that wonderful monk, Iktusa. Yes.
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D
Oh my God.
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C
Who's literally the hot monk everyone talking to.
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B
Do you remember him? The hot monk? Yes, I do.
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C
Do you incorporate those practices like in your day to day? Like I just don't know how, how you were able to stay in know so calm and have this really even killed energy.
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D
Well, thank you. That's an honor. I think there's two levels of the story. So one level of the story that people know is that I got to go to Japan, you know, every quarter for 15 years and I still go. And I get to study practices and rituals of well being and mindfulness. I get to study Zen, I get to study meditation with a Zen monk. Like if anybody should have some tools to handle, you know, the pace of modern life, it should be me. And yet I'm still an American trying to chase the American dream. I'm still a woman of color in the American business world. That can be crushing. So there are days where I did it well, and there's days where I crashed out. I think a lot of the perceptions of me as Zen in the first 15 years of my career was actually disassociation, if I'm going to be honest. And it could be because I was at ground 0 on 9, 11 when I was 22. And then I had to keep working down there. I had to keep going back down there every day for three years. And then I went. I worked on Wall street, which is a really psychologically unsafe place for women of color. It was then, and I would venture to say it is now. And I was often. I also felt physically unsafe. You know, I had bosses touch my body, harass me, assault me, tie it to my bonuses. And so my coping mechanism, my survival mechanism at the time was just to disappear behind a smile. And the more threatened I felt and the more scared I felt, the more I would just put the mask on. And then when I started going to Japan, I started getting some tools to not have to feel that way all the time. But then I also had to do the other stuff. I had to do therapy. You know, I had to really learn to feel my feelings, which is still new for me. So when did you start therapy? I sold the company in 2019. I fired myself as founder and CEO. I guess you can never fire yourself as founder. I would have if I could have. I fired myself as CEO and then Covid hit and then I was asked by Unilever to come back as CEO a second time to execute a turnaround for Tatcha between 2021 and 22.
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C
Was that really difficult for you?
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D
It's the middle of COVID It's the middle of Aapi hate. Between my husband and I at the time, we had to cover somewhere between nine and 11 jobs. You know, the entire C suite almost was gone. Most of the VP team was gone. We covered down to some director roles, back to 100 hour weeks. There's API hate. You know, it was. It was a lot of things going on at the same time. And the good news is we did turn it around and we really rebuilt the company and took it to number one. And it was a. It was a wonderful experience to be able to go back and lead in a different way. But there was a cost. There's always a cost. And so it was during that time that I started having to do therapy because I also wanted to make sure that I showed up as the leader that my company needed at that time. Even though inside I was burning with rage. And grief.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Okay, so let's go back to when you launched Tatcha. Yeah, obviously it. I mean, the beauty industry as it is right now, I think, like, it's obviously never been bigger and it feels like there's a new launch every day. But back then it was still quite competitive and you wanted to make Tatcha stand out from other brands. So how did you see that in your vision and, and when you launched and how do you continue to implement that?
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D
Yeah, when, when we launched, indie beauty brands did exist, but the barriers to entry for beauty have always been low. And so it's always been really, really cluttered. I think for me, the biggest thing was I wanted to share a true story. I had gone to Japan as an American woman. My family's from Taiwan. I had experienced a culture of healing and peace that changed my skin, but also changed how I felt about myself. And I wanted to create a way to keep that in my life and share it with other people who needed it. I had acute dermatitis at that time that covered my face, covered my body. I couldn't even sleep at night. I woke up with blood on my pillows. And now I found a way to calm myself enough that that would all go away. And then when I tried to launch it here in the us what people said was, Asian beauty is not aspirational in the US and that was explicit. It wasn't, you know, implied. They said no Asian beauty brand has ever made it in the U.S. l' Oreal shut down Shu Yuamura in the U.S. sk iis, you know, never really made it. They're in Costco, you know, not that many years after launch. Shiseido has never made it outside of Chinatown. And it took them 25 years to break even, according to what I've heard. And so they said it would. It would be a fool's errand to try to launch an Asian beauty brand, because that's not. That's not the thing here. And so I was like, well, all I can do is do the truth. And if that means that it's an etsy sized business, then that's great because it was never my goal to make a big company, and it was never my goal to make a lot of money. I just. I wanted a way to keep this thing in my life that was healing me and to share it with people who might need it too, and maybe find some community along the way. But it's. It turns out there were people who are interested and I love them.
- [12:44]
C
What are your thoughts now when you look at the landscape and see how much K beauty has taken over. I mean, those people are obviously were wrong in terms of the influence of Asian beauty trends, technology, skincare, even just.
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B
The sunscreen category, which, by the way, we will be talking about.
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C
Kirby has some thoughts, but when you look at it now, like, what are you thinking when you see how big Asian beauty has influenced the current market?
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D
I am so proud. I am so proud of anybody who brings their authentic perspective on beauty to the industry. Whether you are from the LGBTQX community or outside the traditional conventional norms of beauty, like Patrick Starr, whether you're Asian beauty, whether you are, you know, there's all shades, all all sizes, all ages of beautiful. I see more and more people coming and saying, this is what feels beautiful to me. And I think there's room for all of us. I'm so proud. I'm so proud of every single founder who is trying to do it differently.
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B
Okay, let's go to qvc, because you have said to us before that you did not want to launch into Sephora before you were ready. And now I would say most people consider Sephora the Mecca. They really know how to market a brand and get it in people's consciousness. But QVC is still popping.
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C
Okay, yeah, don't sleep on qvc.
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B
I hear all the time from brand founders that QVC is like a very necessary route to go for them still to this day. What was appealing to you about QVC when Tatcha was first getting started with them?
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D
I think you have to be very careful with QVC. It's a high wire act. You have 8 minutes to 12 minutes to sell to your goal. Your goal could be anywhere from 8,000 to $15,000aminute. It's on consignment. You've gotta make all your products to very specific specifications. Certain packouts ship it there and have it sit in their warehouse. If you hit your goals, you're golden. You have made an incredible amount of sales. You've reached clients directly, you've told your story directly to them to hear there's no filter in between. But if you don't hit that, you own it. And that can be really, really, really difficult financially. So we did it at the time because there was an interesting distribution ecosystem between QVC.com and Sephora. You can build awareness on one trial in another, repeat in another. I think the ecosystem has changed a lot. And each one of these retail partners has their pros and cons, their different risk profiles in terms of financial leverage, different cultures, which ones are really interested in nurturing you and growing you and which ones will destroy you if they want. I will say the best partner that we've ever had, hands down, is Sephora. Sephora will always be the Mecca. They incubate you, they care about the founders, they care about the businesses doing well. And the three women who really have built Sephora us into who they are today. Artemis, Patrick, Priya Venkatesh, Cindy Dialey, you know, Alison Hahn on the color side. They were not only amazing merchants, they were mentors, business advocates, personal advocates. So I give them, from a retail perspective, all of the credit for where Tasha ended up.
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B
Wow. Okay.
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D
Cindy Dialey especially.
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B
Yes, Cindy. If you guys aren't familiar with Cindy, she is incredible. And she is just as in the know of what's going on in the beauty space as either one of us. As Vicky. Yeah, she's. She's incredible.
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D
She is.
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C
Do you have any advice for brands who are, who want to enter Sephora.
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D
Who are entering Sephora?
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C
Because to Kirby's point, it feels like that's like the end goal for a lot of people or now we know a lot of brands that partner with Sephora as their launch retail partner.
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D
Right.
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C
So as someone who has worked with Sephora for so long, like, what is your piece of advice?
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D
I think the best thing that we ever did was start exclusive with them. And we were exclusive for 10 years. And it's a relationship ultimately, you know, we're all still people and so by showing them that you're really, really, really committed to being a great partner for them and you know, growth raises both ships, that was the best thing we could have done. If we had opened up other distribution faster than that, we wouldn't have been financed for it. We wouldn't have been in a priority in the same way with the different retailers. So I think showing commitment to your partners is really important and that that's outside of retail too. We still have the same R and D team that started everything in Japan with me 15, almost 16 years ago now, which is the same little scientist working away. We have the same manufacturing partner for this entire time. We have the same leading packaging company who's always made all of our custom packaging. We work with the same companies for our boxes because they gave us a chance when we were nobody. They saved me a number of times over when I couldn't pay my bills and when they need help, we should be there too. So I think everything is about long term partnership. Everything is about integrity. And I'm so glad that you can still feel that in what we do.
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B
Well, even after the sale of the brand, you would think that Unilever would try to rush in and take these things away, but I feel like you probably put your foot down.
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D
I was really lucky because we had this president named Vasiliki Petro, and she built the Unilever prestige division. And she was adamant that each brand was to be left alone and independent. There would be no integration.
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B
Wow.
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D
Whatsoever. And I remember the first meeting I had at Unilever. It was like a. It was like a meeting with some futurists where they were sharing just some trend forecast for the coming decade. And all the major CEOs and CMOs were in the room from every brand that they had in London. And I was like, wow, look at me with all these. These big boys. And then during the break, CEOs from other brands, big, you know, mass brands, would come and introduce themselves to me. And, you know, it was an honor to meet the head of Dove and who. And while I'm literally introducing myself and trying to give my business card, someone from Faciliki's team would intercept, take the cards out of our hands, move me away, and say, nope, you don't talk to anybody in corporate, and nobody in corporate talks to you. And if anybody comes, you send them to me. Like, they. They put this firewall of protection around us, and they said, you focus on you. You focus on your client. Do not talk to corporate, because if you do, you will be crushed. Yeah. And she protected us. She was incredible.
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B
Wow.
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C
That's amazing.
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B
Yeah.
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D
Oh, my gosh.
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B
Truly.
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C
Okay, can I ask a question? Going back to the QVC or live shopping of it all?
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B
Yeah, I was gonna. I think we're.
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D
We're.
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B
We're on the same page.
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C
Obviously, live shopping is, like, a hot topic right now.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Everyone's saying it's the future, obviously. It's been huge in Asia for so long. We have TikTok shop or TikTok live.
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D
TikTok.
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B
TikTok shop. And then they do these lives now.
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D
Yeah.
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C
So what are your thoughts on that? Because personally, I'm not shopping there, but I know that, like, my nieces and nephews are, and I know that a lot of people are, and. And I know that we know brands that have made a million dollars in an hour or something ridiculous like that. So do you think it's important to show up on TikTok or do live shopping?
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D
I think TikTok is it. I think TikTok is going to be the thing that Eats everybody else. I looked at my credit card statement.
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C
Oh, you are on your TikTok shopping.
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D
I think like 90% of my purchases that aren't grocery are either from TikTok or Amazon. And if they're on Amazon, I was influenced by TikTok, by things I didn't even know that I needed.
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C
What do you buy?
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D
So like I got this one plant and then because I'm. Because I'm Asian, I was like, you know, if you propagate them, you can have 10 free plants. But 10 turns into 20 turns into 50. And then I go on a business trip and I'm like, how do I water these things? And TikTok is like, I know there's a solar powered drip system that you can do. And. And then I've fallen into all these different talks and now I have all these things for if you want to make friends with crows and if you like black poetry makes friends with crows.
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B
Like a bird.
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D
It's a thing. It's a thing. All of my personal.
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C
That's not what I expected you to say.
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B
I love this side of Vicki. This is getting like deep in the weeds with Vicki. Have you purchased a Stitchy yet?
- [21:39]
D
Yes, yes.
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B
I need to buy it. It's been in my cart. So I have, I'm not kidding you, 87 things in my TikTok shop cart that I just, I get nervous about actually purchasing. Cause I'm like, is this actually real? I don't know. Now we know they are real. They're actual vendors. But the stitchy. If I needed my dress to be.
- [22:01]
C
A little bit, which I needed right now, I have a safety pin.
- [22:04]
D
Yeah, you just.
- [22:04]
B
Oh, oh, I'm buying a Stitchies corporate card. Corporate card purchase.
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D
I have it. It works.
- [22:09]
B
Business expense. But literally like it will. And then if you need to like tailor that, you know, like I've lost a little weight so I'm like, you know, need to things in on the side or whatever. You don't have to safety pin. You don't have to worry about not being able to wear it.
- [22:19]
D
You just go.
- [22:20]
B
It's like an at home tailor.
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C
Vicky's like, I have five I ordered.
- [22:24]
B
Because like there's one in every room in my house.
- [22:26]
C
I saw that they had the vacuum sealer, mini vacuum sealer. So when you open things.
- [22:31]
B
Don't tell me that I need that. I will need. I will need that.
- [22:33]
C
It's actually so genius. Okay, so you think TikTok's gonna eat everyone?
- [22:36]
D
I don't even know how to turn on My tv. I literally don't know the buttons to turn on my TV.
- [22:41]
B
Yeah, but you can get on TikTok.
- [22:43]
D
Yeah.
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C
Is your daughter an active, like, user of TikTok or, like, shopper?
- [22:49]
D
No, my daughter is 15 and a half. She's not on social media. She's one of those rare teens who doesn't care about her phone and doesn't care about social media.
- [22:58]
C
Love that.
- [22:59]
D
I did. I put her on Little Red Note because it's a great way for her to stay current on Mandarin. Oh. And it's not just like, the Mandarin that you learn in school, but, like, what. The hip kids are doing these things. Yeah. And she falls into, like, cat. Little Red Note. She loves cats. And so.
- [23:17]
B
Okay, great.
- [23:18]
C
I love that.
- [23:19]
D
I love that that's the only social media we do, and I'm not on social media. I don't know.
- [23:23]
C
Yeah, okay.
- [23:24]
B
Okay. After almost 20 years in the business, how has beauty gotten better? And what are some problems that we are continuing to maybe not learn from?
- [23:35]
D
It's gotten better in the sense that people are bringing their own perspectives of beauty. I love that so much. I celebrate every time I see that. How has it not gotten better? I think within skincare specifically, we have a lot of work to do to reprogram ourselves, to not have internalized sexism, ageism, racism, colorism that we've all grown up with, we have to deprogram ourselves of that. And the beauty and skincare industry and the norms that it codifies, it goes all the way back to colonialism. We're fighting against history. And so, especially when the filters are so prevalent, people want to look like how they look on camera instead of how they look in real life. And so one of the things that I really feel passionately about at Tatcha is to inspire people to love their own skin and their own bodies. And so, you know, when I came here today, it's important to me. I don't wear foundation. You know, I do have makeup on, but I won't cover my skin or try to look different than where I am. And there's nothing wrong with wearing foundation. But I. As someone who wants to represent embracing and loving your own skin, I am 47 years old. This is what my skin looks like. And I. I want. I want people to see real skin and then look at their own skin and say, I look good and I feel healthy, you know?
- [25:01]
B
Vicki, hold on. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Are we. Is this.
- [25:05]
C
I know.
- [25:05]
B
I'm like, if I were. If I did not have melasma everywhere. I would not be wearing foundation either.
- [25:11]
D
Vicki.
- [25:11]
B
Okay, like, some people are bored with it clearly over here.
- [25:15]
C
But we understand what you're saying. We really honor it. Obviously.
- [25:19]
B
That is, like, truly an amazing thing to be able to say.
- [25:23]
D
Well, I mean, I'm a big. I'm a victim and part of the audience. Right. But I also want to be part of the solution because now I have a brand that's big enough. So even things like, I showed up here with my natural hair today. I have spent my entire life straightening my hair because I didn't like the fact that I have textured, curly hair. And I'm getting to a point, maybe it's perimenopause, but I'm just like, no, I need to start showing it from my natural body. I'm going to stop dieting and trying to stay size zero. I don't even know what I weigh now. I'm going to stop trying to reshape my face. And I do have makeup on, but I'm not going to try to reshape it. I'm going to stop trying to, like, present my hair as being different. I just want to, like, I just want to experience this life in this body and appreciate that experience. I don't want to hate my body anymore.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah. I admire you so much.
- [26:13]
D
I really admire you.
- [26:14]
B
I admire you. I'm. We need more people like you in the world.
- [26:18]
C
Truly. Do you feel like when you say that, when you say that, like, this criticism, is it more like, is it marketing of the products? Is it the products themselves? Like, you know, I know that we. We once said that, you know, we were against anti aging as a term, but, I mean, I'm saying it all the time now. It's everywhere. Like, it's back and, you know, and. Or are you saying it, like, in terms of, like, the people behind the products or the founder? Like, what are you really seeing as, like, the problem?
- [26:50]
D
The problem. So once you internalize the ageism, the racism, the sexism, the colorism, then you look for it, right? So we started off, you know, from the very beginning with Tatcha. I said, no anti aging. We cannot demonize ourselves for living. The point is to live right? And so I banned the word in our. In our marketing, in our packaging, in anything. Then the problem is you launch with major retailers. You want to make sure that when people search for your product that it comes up and they say if you don't put on that word, people won't find you. It becomes a logistical problem. And so then it's like, okay, fine, you can, you can put it in the filter in the background. So if people search for anti aging, they'll find us. But I'm not going to put it on the packaging. Well, if you don't put it on the packaging then and it, it turns into this like self fulfilling prophecy. If you don't put it on, then they won't buy it. If they don't buy it, then you can't help them. And so I think the solution starts with two sides. It's like it's a push and pull. Those of us in the beauty industry, we have to do the hard work of, of talking about health and helping people, especially women, take back their perspectives on beauty in their bodies. You know, my, my definition of beauty should be what makes me feel beautiful, not what I think you will think is beautiful. You know, so there's this whole language exercise that we have to do. We have to stick to even when that means we don't sell as many products on the client side. If they don't like being demonized for getting older, then make your voices heard and say, I don't want you to use these words anymore. So brands are reactive and responsive. They just need to hear it from the community that it matters. So I say complain, go to social media and say, I don't want to see it anymore and it'll change.
- [28:52]
B
This leads us to why you're here. There's a new serum, the longevity serum.
- [28:58]
D
Yeah.
- [28:59]
C
So beautiful.
- [29:00]
B
I want to talk about the word longevity though because let's say devil's advocate, some people are like, that's just another word for anti aging. What are your thoughts on that?
- [29:09]
D
Let me tell you a story about when I went to Okinawa and I think that will answer it.
- [29:13]
B
Great.
- [29:14]
D
So Japan is famous for having still some of the longest average lifespan in the world. And then Okinawa specifically has historically been a blue zone, which means that they have a very, very unusually high percentage of people who are living over a hundred. One of our key ingred comes from Okinawa. And it's always been important to me to go to the place where our ingredients are from, understand the culture, the history, how it's harvested, how you know, how it affects the community. And Okinawa is the one place I never got to because it's an island, like off to the side. It's not within the mainland. I finally went for the first time in 20. It was seven years ago, so 2018. It was at a time where Tatcha had been growing like crazy for A decade. We had taken private equity. We were in conversation to do an acquisition. I am the CEO. I am leading all the finance talks. I'm on qvc. I'm doing all the things. And it was very much a case of do as I say, not as I do. So I'm talking to people about taking care of themselves and taking a pause, disrupting the pace of modern life. And then I am going 100 hours a week, and next thing you know, I am covered in hives again. And thankfully, it didn't hit my face, so people didn't see. But it was all over my body. And even with everything that we had at Tatcha, I could not keep it under control because my. My nervous system, my immune system, everything was just on fire from the way I treated my body. I get to Okinawa on a trip. I had not slept for maybe 36 hours when I got there because I'd been working and flying and all this stuff. And I was a wreck. Like, physically, I was a wreck, mentally, I was a wreck. And I just wanted to sleep the whole trip and not come out. But I had to over the course of my time there, and I was only there for a few days, I came back to life. Like, I came back to life in a way that I didn't know was possible. And I discovered a completely other side of Japanese culture that's unique to Okinawa that I'd never seen before. So not only do they have people all over the place that are 100 there, it's. They are not in homes, in hospitals, hooked up to machines. They are biking and gardening and doing karate. It's a birthday, so karate. They are living their best lives. Active, healthy, vital, and joyful. And they. They started teaching me, and they taught me about the importance of a sense of purpose, the importance of your mindset. You know, just knowing that it's not that deep. The importance of connection with your community, the importance of movement, and then finally what you eat. And they had these herbs there that they would make in a teas. And so every day they take me in the garden and they teach me about the different herbs we'd make different teas. And after not even that many days of that, I actually like it. Like, undid years of damage in days. Wow. In a way that no other place and no other experience has ever done. Mentally, mentally, physically, it just. It was a hard reset.
- [32:23]
B
Okay.
- [32:23]
D
And so I thought longevity, to your point, was about living a lot of years, so that it was about, you know, age span. But what I learned when I was there is that it's also about health span. And now there's a new word I just saw in the New York Times a few weeks ago that I think really captures Okinawa, which is about joy span. So who wants to live to 100 if you're going to be in a hospital and no friends and depressed? Right. And so when I think about longevity, what I'm trying to express is what I experience in Okinawa that I think could be anywhere is how do we live our lives to the fullest, with joy, with health, and embrace each moment as we get it. Yeah.
- [33:03]
C
Like literally quality over quantity.
- [33:05]
B
We talked about this. We went to the Stanford Longevity Institute last year and learned a lot about it. And it was really eye opening about the different, you know, we learned about the blue zones, we learned about the different prongs of this longevity discussion. It's not just looking a certain way. It's being able to actually do the things that you're still doing now in 30, 40, 50 years from now.
- [33:28]
D
Indeed. And P.S. these women that I saw who are over 100, they don't look over 100.
- [33:32]
B
Right.
- [33:32]
D
And they don't look 20 either, because that's not reasonable or realistic. But they look incredible because they are healthy and happy. So I'd also really like us to start redefining for ourselves what is beautiful, it's healthy, it's happy, it's well rested.
- [33:49]
B
It'S vital, it's stress free.
- [33:51]
D
Yeah.
- [33:52]
B
Yeah.
- [33:52]
D
Okay.
- [33:52]
B
So then how does your trip play into the longevity serum? Is there an herb or. Yeah.
- [33:59]
C
What is the ingredient?
- [34:00]
D
So I went straight from Okinawa on that trip to Tokyo, where our scientists still are, same little scientists that I adore. And I showed them these two cards that they sent me home with that had a list of all of these different herbs that they used, how they've been used culturally and in food and in te, and how they use them, especially in Takatomi, where I was to make longevity teas. And I said, can you guys please research this and let me know what you think? Does it have potential? Because our scientists are not just formulators or raw material scientists, which is why we make some of our own raw materials that are most important. So they researched them, and they researched dozens of these herbs and plants from Okinawa specifically for their impact on the body and which ones can actually go transdermal and have benefits for the skin. And then about two years ago, we finally honed down three of these herbs and when they use them together, plus they pair it with hot assay 3, how to say 3 is the. The ingredient that we have in everything that takes everything deeper into the skin than water. It's a catalyst for everything. They were able to really figure out how to stop the senescence cycle. When it's about accelerated aging from chronic stress, there's a very specific way of addressing it. So we're all going to age, and we shouldn't demonize aging, but we also live in a world that's chronically stressful. And when that happens, we accelerate our aging, and that hurts our bodies. It causes inflammation in our bodies.
- [35:28]
B
Is that inflammatory?
- [35:30]
D
Yes, that's exactly it. And so when they found these three ingredients and then they put them into the formula, they found a way to stop the first of, like, 11 steps that will prevent this chronic pre inflammation stage from the way that we live our lives. So I wanted to bottle my experience in Okinawa and bring it to everybody who's dealing with the same life that I live. I live in the same modern world we do. And they did it. And I just think they did a beautiful job.
- [35:59]
C
Wow. So this has literally been in the works since 2018.
- [36:03]
D
Yeah.
- [36:04]
C
Incredible.
- [36:04]
B
It says that there was a 55% reduction in aging senescent cell markers when testers used this particular serum. How long was that? Like, how long were they testing it? How.
- [36:16]
D
You know, let me pull up the clinical test for you, because I don't have them, but what I love about that statistic that you pulled up was it was 55% in both prevention and repair. Oh, cool.
- [36:26]
C
So how does. How does that show up, like, physically, like, how do you see that? Because I know from what I've learned, like, senescent. Those are like the sleeping cells. Correct. So how do you see that? How does it show on your face?
- [36:38]
D
So that's a really good point. Repair. We all know what that looks like. All the measures of improvements in fine lines and wrinkles and aging is important, but the thing with prevention is you're preventing the future that never happens. So what does it look like? It looks like the skin that you have today that is healthy and beautiful and vital and operating at optimum, that it continues on like that. And that's the hard part. So in Asia, skincare has always been about prevention, and their whole approach to health has been about prevention. In the Western world, it's about correction. You heal disease. But the Eastern philosophy has always been, you know, what's even better than healing disease? Don't get sick.
- [37:20]
B
Right.
- [37:20]
D
Yeah. And so whenever I would originally try to bring in concepts of prevention into our Marketing. In our early days, I was always told, prevention's not sexy. We want before and afters. We want to know the improvement in fine lines and wrinkles. So we always put the prevention ingredients in there. We just didn't talk about it because, you know, on a P page you can only say so much. And if everybody's telling you it's not sexy enough, give me before and after. We're like, but now the clients are so sophisticated. They're learning so much. And so now I think we're at the point where we can say, by the way, I don't have a before and after. But what I can say is before will look like before. Will look like before. It will look like before.
- [38:00]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:01]
B
It was funny because when we were planning to get you on, I was like, do you have bnas for this? Like, let me, let me see what.
- [38:07]
D
We want to see.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah. And they responded and they were like, okay, so this is how this particular serum works. Here's what you can. And then gave me, obviously some of these statistics, which was great. So it was a learning experience for me as well.
- [38:20]
D
I love that. Well, you know what? I think a really good analogy. Do you guys wear any of these, like, health monitors?
- [38:24]
C
I'm starting to wear an aura ring.
- [38:26]
B
You have an aura?
- [38:26]
D
I've considered an aura.
- [38:27]
B
I have an apple watch. But like, I really want to get an aura.
- [38:31]
D
So I use whoop. And I've used WHOOP for like five years. Right. And when I stopped working like a crazy person, you know, I started exercising for the first time in my adult life. I don't look very different. I'm the same size as I have been in the past. I'm a bit heavier. I think it's a combination of muscle, bone density and fat because I'm older, but I don't really look different. But WHOOP just launched a new statistic and it's basically your biological age versus your chronological age. So my chronological age is 47, but based on my health statistics, I'm 38.
- [39:11]
B
There's a whoop for you.
- [39:12]
D
That was a whoop right there. But what does that look like? Well, I don't know. I look the same sort of as I always did. But what's not happening is there's, in the multiverse, there's another version of 47 year old Vicky who does not look or feel like this. And so that's the thing that's hard to explain, but we're trying to help people understand. Yeah.
- [39:33]
C
And I do feel like there is this trend towards caring about the inside and your inner age versus just the outside, which I love.
- [39:43]
B
Can we get into perimeter?
- [39:45]
D
Speaking of, let's do that.
- [39:46]
B
Because when we were greeting each other, I told you that this is the best you've ever looked.
- [39:51]
C
Glowing.
- [39:52]
B
Not to make it about looks right.
- [39:54]
D
It's so good.
- [39:55]
B
Sorry, but I am wearing the serum.
- [39:57]
D
Yes. Thank you.
- [39:59]
C
But I think it also is a reflection of how you feel on the inside. And like you said, you're taking better care of yourself. You're sleeping, your work life balance. Sounds great.
- [40:07]
B
I love your hair.
- [40:08]
D
Your hair, my natural hair. Thank you.
- [40:10]
B
I do pay lots of money for that baby.
- [40:12]
D
I do.
- [40:13]
B
I do. So then you mentioned, oh, I am in perimenopause. There are some things that I'm doing to help, and I feel like they would be helpful for some of our listeners to know.
- [40:24]
D
Yeah, I'm happy to share my journey. I cannot give medical advice. However, I can tell you it worked for me. I started feeling really not myself a couple years ago. I was sweating in the middle of the night, and I googled it. And then I was like, I have cancer. My mind wasn't as sharp, my emotions felt more unstable, my energy felt low, and I didn't know why. I thought I might have depression. But I went to my physical, I told my doctor, you know, what was going on, and she said, well, let me do a blood test. And she said, you're in perimenopause. And, you know, the old school thinking used to be that you. You just deal with it. But now we also know that there's protective benefits for some hormone replacement therapy, especially if you're like me and you have the Alzheimer's gene and there are certain cancers that don't run in my family that, you know, I don't have to worry about, you know, more than the general population. So I started hormone replacement therapy a couple years ago. I would say somewhere between three and six months. It was like a complete rewind in time. Not only could I sleep through the night, the night sweat stopped, but my mood, my mood stabilized. My energy came back, my mental clarity came back, my hair came back. And then with that, it was a catalyst for me to be able to exercise, sleep better, take better care of myself, invest in my relationships. And so it was a virtuous cycle. And so that's been really incredible. And then two years later, I started feeling off again, and I couldn't figure out why. And so I went in for my, you know, usual stuff, and they said, oh, your Testosterone really went down this year. And also, you probably have to up the estrogen a little bit more. So I was like, oh, it's not like, set it and forget it. You actually have to, like, keep adjusting it because your body keeps changing. And so, yeah, I just started a little bit of testosterone, too. And if it's only been a month or so, so I haven't felt huge changes. But I do kickbox, and within about a couple weeks when I was just warming up and I threw a couple kicks, it sounded like a gunshot. And I was like, wow. Because I didn't think that I even tried that hard. I was just warming up, and my coach was like, oh, I felt that in the gut. And I was like, wow, that's fun.
- [42:37]
B
Yeah.
- [42:37]
D
So. So, yeah, because, you know, we have all of these hormones in us. It's just a natural part of us. Um, but I'm also doing the other things that it. That it takes to help keep my hormones in check, including making sure I'm managing my stress and sleep. And it's all connected.
- [42:52]
B
Right. What advice do you have for maybe Sarah and myself, who were not there yet, but now knowing what you know, what would you tell us?
- [43:01]
D
I feel like I'm going through puberty again. It's like you go through puberty, you know, the first time around when you go from girl to woman, and then when you're coming out of your reproductive years, it feels that, like another type of puberty in terms of the changes that you can expect in your body. And so I would just say when you see these changes, one, be curious and loving to yourself. Talk to your doctor. And if one doctor doesn't give you answers that make you feel good, you know, go get multiple opinions, but just, like, accept and realize that your body is changing, but there are also things that you can do to help carry you through this change that will make you feel like your best self on any date. Doesn't matter. The other thing is, I've been reading statistics about how women after menopause are the happiest that they've been in their lives. And then also the older they get, like, when they hit 60 and 70, they get happier and happier and happier.
- [43:50]
C
Love that.
- [43:51]
D
Which I am for that, too. So when I was younger, I would look at, you know, someone in their late 40s and think, so sad. Life is over 40. I know, right?
- [44:02]
B
I mean, that's how I feel on TikTok. Yeah.
- [44:06]
D
And then now I realize that I really, really, really believe that my best days are ahead of Me. And it makes me hopeful, and it makes me excited about the future. And, yeah, I have a very different relationship with my body now than I did before.
- [44:23]
C
We have one more question for you.
- [44:25]
D
Okay. So the Dewy Skin cream.
- [44:28]
C
Yeah, It's a hit. It's sold every 30 seconds and has sold year over year. Growth in the moisturizer category, that is exceptional. Why do you think that is? Why do you think people keep coming back to this specific product, my mother included?
- [44:44]
D
Oh, that's so sweet. You know, when we first launched that, it was a very sleepy little. Not a hit. It wasn't a hit. And then the way that it's grown over time is just repeat purchases. So I think that people can feel when they use it on their skin, a sense of. Of comfort and healing, which is what we intend for the ingredients. But also, I think that when you wear it, the emollients of the formula gives you this very natural radiance that I think hearkens back to your own. Your own natural radiance. Like you have a daughter right now. Tell me how old she is again.
- [45:19]
C
She's turning five next month.
- [45:21]
D
Okay. When you look at her skin, doesn't it look like it is actually, like, returning light? Like there's a measurable radiance coming off of her skin?
- [45:30]
C
Totally.
- [45:31]
D
And that is the glow of health. Not youth per se, just health. And I think the one thing this formula does is it gives you immediately and over time that radiance that is a marker of really healthy skin. So it's what I have on right now. And no foundation. Although I do have concealer because I have bags around my eyes too. Nobody needs to know about that. But, yeah, it's about healthy, healthy, healthy, I think.
- [46:01]
B
What's the most underrated Tatcha product?
- [46:03]
C
Kirby wants to answer this herself. Ooh.
- [46:05]
D
What do you think it is?
- [46:06]
B
Silken sunscreen.
- [46:10]
C
She carries it around.
- [46:11]
B
I do. And it is the better sunscreen.
- [46:14]
D
I'm just saying.
- [46:15]
B
I'm just saying. Everybody sleeps on it. I'm telling y'.
- [46:18]
D
All.
- [46:18]
B
Like, do you remember when you hosted us?
- [46:21]
C
Was it at Nobu?
- [46:22]
B
Nobu Hotel?
- [46:23]
C
Ryokan.
- [46:24]
B
Ryokan, yeah.
- [46:25]
D
With Ito san, the monk.
- [46:26]
C
Oh, my God. Ito san.
- [46:27]
B
Yes.
- [46:28]
C
You do remember an incredible event we went down to.
- [46:30]
D
I think I was in Japan. I wasn't with you guys. I was in the lab. Nami was with you?
- [46:34]
C
Oh, Nami.
- [46:34]
B
Oh, Nami.
- [46:35]
D
She's still there.
- [46:36]
C
Oh Nami.
- [46:36]
D
Our executive director of Japanese culture and education. Okay.
- [46:39]
B
Yes. Okay. So you were not there.
- [46:42]
D
Why Did.
- [46:42]
B
I think you were.
- [46:43]
D
Just.
- [46:43]
C
Because she's always there. The br. You know what I mean?
- [46:45]
B
We went. For some reason, I have this very vivid visual of you being on the beach with, like, a giant sun hat while we were all, like, kind of scattered under umbrellas and there were just silken sunscreens. Maybe there was a wear event.
- [46:58]
D
There might have. You know, there was. I think there was another event.
- [47:00]
C
Oh, when we did the ikebana.
- [47:03]
B
Yes.
- [47:03]
C
When we built. When we did the floral arrangement.
- [47:06]
D
I think that was the one with Nami. There was another event that I was there, because I do remember when people went on the beach that, like, the Asian mom and me, I'm like, put on your sunscreen. I started throwing it on, and you.
- [47:16]
B
Had on, like, the most giant hat I've ever seen. We were like, where'd you get it? And then there was just silken pores.
- [47:21]
D
It was actually a sombrero, which is the.
- [47:23]
C
Literally the blue bottle.
- [47:24]
B
Yes.
- [47:25]
C
Yes, the blue bottle.
- [47:27]
B
And I was like, why aren't you people. Oh, it was for the pearl.
- [47:31]
D
It was for the pearl. You have an amazing memory.
- [47:33]
B
It was for the pearl.
- [47:34]
D
How many events have you been to? How many formulas have you.
- [47:37]
B
That made an impact on me?
- [47:38]
C
Yes. Incredibly impactful, very memorable.
- [47:41]
B
But Sarah and I were like, y' all have a sunscreen? And then your team was like, yeah, we just, like, don't talk about it. And I'm like, basically just devouring it because it was so great. It's such a beautiful formula. So beautiful. So what is your. What is your opinion, though?
- [47:55]
D
The.
- [47:55]
B
The opinion that matters. What is your opinion on the most underrated Tatcha product, the Essence?
- [48:00]
D
So essence is not a category that has taken off in the US yet in Asia, it's the biggest category. But the reason I love that formula, there's the efficacy in the story. The story is I did not believe in essences because I had worked for a brand that had an essence, and it's not real. And so when my scientist said, we need to have an essence, I was like, you just think you do because you're Japanese. But I refuse to encourage, you know, our. Our clients to use anything that they don't need. And so they worked on it for four years behind my back, which is cool, because that's like, they should be doing that. And then separately, how to say three, which is the ingredient that we have in everything used to be a blend of green tea, rice, and seaweed, but they had said, you know, if you ferment it, in fact, double Fermented, you're actually going to unlock the active ingredients in a way that's even more bioavailable to the skin, and it will drive the efficacy through the roof. And so I like to try raw materials straight in addition to in formula, so I understand, you know, their properties. So they gave me this bottle of green tea, rice, and seaweed that had been fermented twice. There was nothing else in it. It just looks like water, smells like sake. And I put it on, and I was like, okay. It doesn't really feel like anything absorbed into my skin. Immediately, my skin felt nice, but, like, I didn't really think anything of it. And then the next morning, I woke up in Tokyo and I looked in the mirror, and I was like, did I forget to wash the makeup off my face? Because my skin. There's something different about it. Next night, same thing happened. So then I finally go back to the lab, and I was like, what is in this bottle? And they said, it's just the green tea, rice, and seaweed that we fermented twice. And that alone they'd been working on for seven years because they had to go through, like, 200 different ferments. So I was like, it is amazing. We should just sell it like this. Like nothing else, just a raw material. And they're like, that would be in essence. And I was like, yes.
- [49:54]
C
Well played.
- [49:56]
D
So we launched it, and if you took everything else away from me and that's all I had, I would actually be okay. Because when you put it on, it increases the hydration of your skin instantly by almost 700%. Like, it swells your skin with hydration.
- [50:12]
B
Give it to me.
- [50:13]
D
Where is it? It is. When we fermented it, what it produced was amino acids, which are the building blocks of protein, which are the building blocks of skin, and lactic acid, which keeps the skin, you know, smooth, bright, texture free. Not texture free, but beautifully textured. And it goes, like, 35% deeper into the skin than water. And so if that's all I ever used forever, that's kind of enough.
- [50:36]
C
I feel like I knew this about you. I feel like this has always been your favorite. And I feel like when Yoli would do our facials, she would always say that this is Vicki's favorite.
- [50:44]
D
Oh, Yoli's great.
- [50:46]
B
Okay, Vicky, before we let you go, just one last thing. On the longevity serum. Who is this for? Who should pick it up?
- [50:53]
D
I think it is for everybody. However, I think the people who are going to love it most are the people who are dealing with chronic stress in their lives and have the type of skin where stress shows up in their skin.
- [51:08]
B
Okay.
- [51:08]
D
And stress can show up in in skin in different ways. For some people it is rosacea and redness. Some people it's eczema. Some people it's acne. Some people it's dryness. So it can. Inflammation in your skin can take many forms. But if you think about it almost like a multivitamin for your skin and you, you take it preventatively, not only are you going to love the way you know it looks instantly, but it's going to just increase the joy span of your skin if for lack of a better sway.
- [51:36]
C
So basically everyone living in 2025, you.
- [51:39]
D
Know, I'm sure there are some where stress is not a part of their lives and it's not a part of their skin. And I would say for you, do less, do less.
- [51:50]
B
Thank you, Vicki, for coming back.
- [51:51]
D
I love you guys. Can I tell you, you're doing such an amazing job. You do your work with so much integrity. I am so proud of you.
- [51:59]
B
We love you.
- [51:59]
C
Thank you.
- [52:11]
E
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