← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
A Biblical Look at Giving: Stewardship & Generosity with Jim Sheppard and Dr. R. Mark Dillon
00:53:05
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- [00:00]
Kevin Gentry
Hi there, I'm Kevin Gentry, and welcome to the Going Big podcast where we'll explore some of the strategies that can help you transform your effectiveness by 10xing your fundraising. Each week we'll sit down with some of the most influential business leaders, CEOs, and nonprofit visionaries to talk about leadership, the power of giving, and how you can make a real impact. If you want to make a transformational change to the cause you're working on, this is the place for that conversation. Also, take a Look at our website, 10xStrategies.com that's T E N X strategies.com for lots of free marketing and fundraising resources. And be sure to sign up for the free weekly fundraising tips. Now, let's dive in. Well, welcome, ladies and gentlemen. I've got a great treat for you all today from the Generis consulting firm, two great inspiring leaders, visionary leaders, good friends, Jim Shepard and Mark Dillon. Jim Shepard is the CEO and Mark Dillon heads the Christian Nonprofit division. This is a firm that focuses on big fundraising efforts, stewardship efforts that help churches, Christian nonprofits, and educational firms really just step into a big, bold vision. And there's a lot I know they have to share today because I've been able to soak up a lot of wisdom from them over the years. And it's time that others get to hear about it, too. So I'm just going to jump right in and with the first question, and this is a foundational question, and I'll, I'll. Jim or Mark, I'll. I'll let you dive in, maybe. Jim, what is, in your estimation, the, the best way to describe the biblical understanding of stewardship and, and generous giving?
- [01:55]
Jim Shepard
Great question as we get started here, Kevin, and thank you so much for the invite for Mark and for me. I know that we are both honored to be here on your podcast. And that's a great foundational question because I think it really is at the heart of how we're missing it in the American church and the American Christian community. So for me, it would start in two places, both of them in the Old Testament, Genesis 1, right after the creation story where God gave mankind the stewardship over everything. So if we think about it, our first assignment, our very first assignment, and this is before Genesis 3. So this is pre sin and a part of our original, you know, undefiled creation. We were assigned the job, the responsibility for managing everything that God had created. Then I think I go to Psalm 24:1 for emphasis on that, that we were not given the ownership. We were only given management. Because Psalm 24:1, as we, I think all know, says the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. So then I think that raises a really big question that if we answer it, it gives us a really good understanding. Why would God put that much responsibility into the hands of sinful, fallen people? We weren't originally sinful and fallen, but we became that and he put it into our hands. And I think there's a number of conclusions that you can come to. And, and by the way, and out of that, especially when it comes to money and possessions, he wants to fund his church through that. Why would God put that into the hands of a middleman like us? Because he could probably do it a lot better without us. I think at least one. Maybe the major answer to that question is this, is that it is a means by which he intends to transform us and sanctify us, and we overlook that. I think really, if you look at. In the New Testament, I think the. Really Jesus premiered, there are a lot of things he didn't say about stewardship. There are some things he did say, and in Matthew 25, 16:30, I think that's his clearest teaching. You have been given something, and your responsibility is to do as much as you can with it while you're here. And when you're finished, we'll take an account and we'll see how you did. And the hope is that you'll hear well done, good and faithful servant, which despite the fact that it gets used in a number of different places, only appears in one story. And it's about, you know, about stewardship. So I think that Ron Blue said it really well in his book Generous Living, which is probably over 30 years old now. For the Christian, money is a tool. It's the thing that God uses to do things. It's a test to see what we'll do with it. And then it's a testimony. If we've passed the test, it becomes a testimony of how God worked in us. So that would be kind of my short summary of Christian stewardship.
- [04:53]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that's a powerful start. Thank you very much, Jim. Mark, I got to give you the invitation, too, to comment on this. What's your. What's your way of describing it, Jim?
- [05:05]
Mark Dillon
I loved the way you, you said it. And biblically oriented, which I really apprec. I would say this biblical stewardship is rooted in the knowledge that the God who created us is a generous God. Think about it. He's given us a beautiful planet. He. He gives us Life and breath. He provides our daily bread. I thought of the same passage that Jim did. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. So if God's a giving God, it only makes sense that his children take joy in giving to things of eternal value. Helping the poor, healing the sick, preserving his creation, equipping people to understand the world and their place in it. I think if we're doing that, we're doing God's work, and that's what he intended.
- [05:56]
Kevin Gentry
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I think you can see now why I was so excited to have Jim and Mark in this podcast today. So help us understand, what do you two do? What? Tell us a little bit more about Generis. But what do you two do in your individual roles? Jim, I know in particular your focus has been on helping churches just really step into a much, much bigger impact. And Mark, I know you came over to generis about, about 10 years ago to start the nonprofit division from many years at Wheaton Wheaton College. Tell us, what do you two do? Jim, you go first.
- [06:36]
Jim Shepard
Well, I think the biggest thing that we're doing on the church side, which is really where, where most of my expertise is, we're trying to help church leaders understand that, that giving in the church is not a financial transaction on Sunday morning. It's a spiritual relationship with a holy God. And in other words, it's not meant to be a transactional type thing. It's meant to be a transformational type thing. And I think that's we've drifted over into a highly transactional mindset over the last 30 or 40 years. Kevin. I don't think a lot of people intended to do that, but it is where we find ourselves. We've become very fluent in, you know, giving to my church, and not as fluid in giving from the surrendered heart of a transformed Christ follower. And that's what we're trying to help people understand, that there's, there's no lid. Once we can get into your heart and reorient your heart, your resources are going to be reallocated to more kingdom purposes. And so the heart really is the key to help especially people in the local church understand what that relationship looks like. It's not transactional. It's not just fundraising on Sunday morning. It really is about your relationship with your heavenly Father and how he wants to transform and sanctify you with your money and possessions.
- [07:47]
Kevin Gentry
Mark?
- [07:49]
Mark Dillon
Yeah, I would say this in, in our area in Christian higher education, K through 12 and Christian ministry, it comes with the realization that in this World money fuels ministry. There's no lack of needs to be met. Kevin, you know this better than most of us. There are about a million and a half nonprofits in America and well over a third of them, probably we don't have the exact figure, but probably more than half of them have a Christian origin. So no lack of needs to be met, only lack of resources to accomplish big things in service to God. So we, we sit down with Christian universities, help them conceive and carry out transformational capital campaigns. And we've been blessed to, to witness that in a number of Christian universities. We do the same with K12 Christian education movement. And as you know, it is burgeoning around the country. There's no lack of need in that area. Parents want their kids to be trained in the more classical Christian way. And they're saying, we don't have room for all the kids that want to come here. How do we do that? And then we help CEOs and boards and development people come to terms with the importance of asking. Well, we spend a lot of time on this when we do campaign consulting and other kinds of consulting. What we found. And Kevin, I bet you have too. A lot of organizations are good at having a fundamental vision, even communicating that vision, but it comes down to asking, well, for the gift. That's when a lot of organizations fall down and we feel like if we can help them be better at asking for a gift, the results will be much, much better. And then I just say one other thing. We develop teams, whether it's two in a development team or scores of people determine how to use their resources well, their personnel resources and their financial resources to be the best they can be in their fundraising.
- [10:07]
Jim Shepard
What's been cool, Kevin has been been seeing Mark move out of the seat that he had at Wheaton where he, he literally wrote the book on Christian Raising, Giving, Getting in the Kingdom, a Field Guide to Christian Fundraising. And seeing him take that from influencing one organization to influencing many. And, and I think everybody would know this. It's on the call probably are Christian higher education is at a crossroads. Christian seminaries are at a crossroads in America. And to see, you know, people. Mark does work with other organizations, but his work with higher Christian education, Christian colleges, universities and seminaries is amazing work and has come and is accomplishing really catalytic things in these Christian organizations that are really facing a hard future. Many of them, I mean, when Gordon Conwell, the seminary that trained no less than Tim Keller and a whole bunch of other people has to sell its property and Move downtown. Then you know that seminary education and Christian higher education is at a crossroads. And it's a privilege for us, especially with Mark's leadership, to have a seat at the table to help some of those organizations.
- [11:14]
Kevin Gentry
Well, well, thank you. Thank you very much for both of you all, for your. For doing this. We'll bring this to life a little bit more. Jim, you and I first met when you were helping my church, our home church, the false church Anglican, find a new home after a number of years of tabernacling. Why don't you, if you don't mind, share that story? We are, we are so blessed every. Not every, not only every Sunday when we meet to worship the Lord, but I'm going to be leaving this evening in a couple hours to go to a class there, and there's so many things going on. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that story.
- [11:55]
Jim Shepard
Well, Kevin, you know, that was an amazing story because when I first met with you all, we came in and did one of our generosity assessments, our generality audit that we do with local churches to just kind of give you the lay of the land. Not to enter into a big contract with us, but just let's do that one day thing. And there was a lot going on, including the fact that your church had left its denomination and had lost its property as a result of that and was going through a number of lawsuits. And you were now waiting to be heard before the Supreme Court for the final adjudication of whether you would actually get your property back or not. And I still remember that in the generosity report, I said, until that happens, there's really not much we can do. You're just paralyzed and in waiting. And you were in that season that we call tabernacling because you were a mobile church going from place to place, but holding. But John Yates, God bless John Yates, holding that church together during all of that time. Now, you did lose some people, but this, I mean, the faithful ones that stayed were the ones who got to see the victory. They got to see the promised land. And, and Kevin, if I remember, it wasn't a month after I was there that the Supreme Court ruled. Although they didn't rule. They just said they did a Pontius Pilate. I'm taking hands off of this. We have no. We have no say here. And so the real estate committee began very actively pursuing this new property. And the Lord, in his kindness, provided that piece of property that all of us, I think when we first saw it, kind of said, this is not exactly what we thought but this could probably work. And that is now the home of the Falls Church angling. We did two capital campaigns there, raised all the money to get you in there. And then shortly thereafter, after you all moved in, John transitioned from, from being the senior rector, the rector there, to Sam Ferguson, who I originally met when he was in the fellow program there. So it's just been one of the, one of the great stories to watch. It's one of the most fun stories over the years and the time with you and Kristen and, and with, with John and Sam and all of those back in the day. It's just, it's a great story. It's one of the, one of my great memories of all of my years of church consulting.
- [14:17]
Kevin Gentry
Well, thank you for the vital role that you played in that and helped the church raise an astonishing sum of money to build a beautiful new sanctuary which is very visible in Washington D.C. and I was stumped for a moment to remember. I. It's the book, I think is called Washington's Church. I'm going to think about it in a minute. It's a great book that really describes this whole.
- [14:40]
Jim Shepard
It's John Yates description of the whole journey. And he actually gave me a copy of it and it's signed. I have it at home in the books in my nightstand. One of my favorite books.
- [14:49]
Kevin Gentry
Outstanding. Of course, that was the church, the church on the Way to the Falls. That's how it got its name. The city of Falls Church is named for the church. And it's where George Washington was a vesterman. George Mason was at a historic, beautiful, historic quality about it. But John Yates as the leader and so many of us determined we had to leave the national denomination. And that's the story. So thank you for your role in that.
- [15:20]
Jim Shepard
Really, Mark, you would love this. Let me just tell this to Mark real quick because he would love this. The one thing that John didn't want to do, Mark, was ask the high capacity givers. And so I walked him through the training for that. And God bless John. He did like 10 or 12 of those. And I was in there to meet with him the next time. And I remember sitting in his office, he said, well, Jim, I think I need to tell you something. And I didn't think I'd ever be saying to you. And I said, what is that, John? He said, these visits with my people to talk about their giving have been some of the best ministry I've ever done. And I was like, that's why I pressed you so hard to do it, John. I know this would be the case. Right.
- [16:00]
Kevin Gentry
Well, thank you so much. And for those who know the story, I mean, John Yates was. Was definitely ready to retire. He'd been there a long time. Oh, yes, he had hurt his leg, his knee, and he had knee replacement. He was having to Uber to people's homes because he couldn't drive to do all these visits amidst also giving sermons on Sunday and pastoring and. And everything else. And it was extraordinary. So thank you again for that role. So. So I learned from you in your belief in the importance of developing a culture of giving, a culture of generosity in a church. What do you mean by that? Tell us a little bit about that.
- [16:44]
Jim Shepard
Yeah, so when I use the word culture, the word that I use interchangeably with that, Kevin, is the word ecosystem. So, because I think it really is descriptive when we say culture, it almost feels like the fog in the room. But when I say ecosystem, people understand. Oh, okay. So you're talking about things and kind of that. So it's an ecosystem where everything in that system reinforces the idea. So if the idea is generosity, then you actually have everything reinforcing that it's not siloed. You know, one of the things that people don't realize, and I see it a lot, is there are churches that have a stewardship pastor, and the challenge for them is not to have it think, oh, that lives over in Jim's office. You know, he's the stewardship pastor. No, no, Jim is the stewardship pastor. To try to get everybody focused on stewards and their place in the ecosystem. I want the youth pastor to understand his role. I want the women's ministry leader to understand her role. I want the kids pastor to understand their role. I want everybody on the team to understand that at some point, the ecosystem of generosity touches you. Because generous churches are led by generous pastors, but really generous churches are led by teams of generous people. And to the extent that you can get that out of just one person and among the teams, then you'll see generosity flourish. And that's that culture, that ecosystem we're talking about.
- [18:11]
Kevin Gentry
And that's how you tie it back also to a biblical understanding of stewardship.
- [18:15]
Jim Shepard
That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And a big part of it, too, Kevin, is just having a giving story. You know, a lot of people, we ask them the idea, hey, what's your giving story? They've never really thought about that. And then sharing your giving story publicly, that begins to be a little bit. Well, I'M not sure how to do that. Jim, as Tom, seems to be talking about bragging, whatnot. Well, you know, this is the whole idea that Jesus was talking about. You wouldn't hide a lamp on a lamp under a basket, would you? So if God has worked his grace in your heart, it's not you deciding to give. It's the work of the Spirit in you. And there's no bragging when you're talking about the Spirit. You're calling attention to what God has done in through you, not what you're doing. Right. And that's been so helpful for so many people because they've never thought of it in those terms.
- [18:59]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that's, that's really, that's, that's, that's powerful. Well, Mark Dylan, you, you, since you work in the nonprofit ministry space and educational organizations, I'm more familiar with that area and we see so often a wonderful organization. The leadership will say, well, I'm just going to hire the development person. In fact, let's, let's just hire sort of a kind of a gunslinger to just go do the fundraising. And just, that's just a separate thing. It's almost a necessary evil. Just go do that and let us get focused on our everyday work. So take what Jim just shared about that culture of giving and apply that to the nonprofit space, if you don't mind.
- [19:45]
Mark Dillon
Yeah, we get asked the same question about how can we develop a culture of giving in our university, in our seminary, in our, in our school. And as you all know, Christians tend to be all over the place and they're thinking about giving and generosity. A whole lot of people in the organizations that we serve have adopted the world's view of wealth. And that is my money, is my business. And they have not come to grips with God's expectation and his perspective, which is that he owns it all and we should be as radically generous as he is. And I think one of the ways of doing that. You mentioned one about hiring a gunslinger in development. One of the things I tell our CEOs and presidents and heads of school is whether you know it or not, or whether you like it or not, you are the chief development officer of this organization as the leader. And we try to inculcate that into and have the leader take that responsibility. Some understand that and are willing to do it. Others need to be brought along to do that. But the best organizations are where the leader is the chief fundraising officer of the school. And then Jim mentioned this, too, just telling stories about giving, haranguing people that they need to be givers is not, is never the answer. But bring people forward that can give an example of how their generosity and their even sacrifice has been transformational in their lives. What joy has that brought to them? And what benefit has it brought to either the church or the organization that they love? And if people hear that story, more will rise to it. I used to, early in my career, I would say just let me get at the rich and generous people. Those are the ones I want to talk to. But I've figured out over the years that you can grow people in their understanding of giving and in their experience of joy in giving by telling those stories and calling them to more than they've been accustomed to in the past.
- [22:06]
Kevin Gentry
Amen. Well, you'll hit into something. And, and Jim, this is another thing that I learned from you and that's how important involvement and engagement in the church or the ministry is. And I think I may have shared with you that many years ago at our church, the False Church Anglican, we were trying to raise funds for a special project or initiative. And I was surprised by who was giving and who wasn't giving. I thought the ones who would be giving had the greatest capability, but the ones who were giving were actually not necessarily the ones with the greatest capacity to give, but they were the most involved and engaged in the church. Do you see that correlation a lot?
- [22:53]
Jim Shepard
Oh, gosh, it's, it's a, it's a pretty clear correlation at some point in time, Kevin. And you know, one of the things that we've seen over the years increasingly on the, on the advancement side, it's a given in the church side. It's been kind of slow to come, but a lot of churches are now open to the idea of doing well, screening with their congregation to see what is the capacity of people that are there. And the one thing I can tell you again and again and again that I see is someone with, let's say eight figure giving capacity on a wealth screen who's giving $1200 or even $12,000 to their church. $12,000 might be a lot of money to some people. It's not a lot to these people with capacity. And what I say to the pastor will say to me, what do you think is going on there? And my answer is, Pastor, they're giving it somewhere. The one thing that high net worth people and high income people understand is that giving is advantageous from a community standpoint, from a Christian standpoint, and from a tax avoidance standpoint. So that's like a threefold reason they understand that they're not giving to your church. It's most likely not a giving problem. It's a giving to my church problem. And most of that is because of relationship and, or engagement. Right. And if you can solve that, then you can solve a whole lot of other things. And what I would say in the church, the relationship and the engagement is more about discipleship than it is just getting to know them. Most of these people who have high net worth don't have anyone speaking into their life spiritually. And so their pastor would be the obvious person to do that and help them to understand, hey, you know, the one thing going back to the parable, the talents. Kevin. I mean, the one thing that's really clear about the parable of Taos in a practical standpoint is the more you have, the harder it is to hear well done. The more you have, the harder it is to hear well done. And if your pastor is not speaking into that, then who is? Who is? And so that's really where I go about a lot of that is just to help help them understand that. In fact, you know, the, the next Sunday podcast that I do here, the podcast that we just released yesterday is how do pastors speak to and relate to people who have high net worth? And because they, they really have a hard time doing that. And, but there is a definitive correlation at all income levels, regardless of where they are. When you see people, when you see the list of people who are giving for the most part, that's the people who are there on a regular basis who are, who are doing the heavy lifting. And, and there's, you know, there are some exceptions to that, but it's pretty high correlation at this point.
- [25:37]
Kevin Gentry
Well, another important aspect is that just as in any kind of voluntary exchange, but especially in giving, and especially in giving to the church, it's a win, win. It's not a cost. It's not, you know, feeling some pain to, to contribute. Tell us about just the, the, all the wonder and beauty and, and, and just the blessing of being able to give and of giving and Mark, I'll let you start there.
- [26:09]
Mark Dillon
Well, we've spoken to the high capacity givers and we all know in the fundraising raising realm that if you don't have them on board, you're not going to get to a, to a big goal. But it's important to remember too that Jesus commended not the size of the gift, but the amount of sacrifice. And that's why, for instance, we love comprehensive campaigns. So those that are only capable of Giving at a lesser amount can have the blessing of the overall success of the effort. And I can just tell you I've been doing this long enough to know that some of the small gifts that are given to these campaigns are given with a whole lot more sacrifice than some of the large gifts. And that's a good way to keep our hearts tender as, as fundraising people is to realize that God commends the amount of sacrifice, not the size of the gift.
- [27:12]
Jim Shepard
Yeah, Jim, I would say this, Yeah, I would say on the church side, Kevin, you know, there's a, one of the things I'd come right off the top and say is that we see churches. Let me back the tape up. Let me give you the big idea. I'm not saying I never would, but I would at the church level especially, I would be very careful with the use of the word generous, because a lot of large gifts that we see are actually not generous. They're significant, but they're not generous. And you actually don't know that they're generous in God's eyes or not. So I think you want to be, as a pastor, you want to be very careful in giving credit for something that, that's generous just because it's big. And so it's funny, as I've said that, Kevin, it just stops the conversation in rooms with pastors and executive pastors because they've never thought about it and they realize. Spot on with what I'm saying.
- [28:12]
Mark Dillon
Jim, I think you've rubbed off on me here. I just met with a client last week and reviewed their thank you letter for a gift. And it started with thank you for your generous gift. And I wrote back and I said, how do you know that gift is generous?
- [28:28]
Jim Shepard
Don't know.
- [28:29]
Mark Dillon
And if you call it generous, you're saying that you're, you're satisfied with whatever it is that they gave.
- [28:35]
Jim Shepard
That's right. That's right. That's exactly what I said. And that's what we, what we've been saying, Kevin, is, you know, the gift of $5,000 from a single mom who's putting three kids through college is probably a lot more sacrificial than a ten million dollar gift from somebody. Because I think what, what are the three of us know, and all of us are in philanthropy, it's rare that a person gives away more than 3 or 4% of their net worth. It's rare. It does happen, but it's rare. And that wouldn't feel like that qualifies as generous in God's eyes. And so I wouldn't want to give you credit for something that God's not, not going to give you credit for. So what I'd rather say is, dear Jim and Nancy, let's say Jim and Nancy gave a five million dollar gift to a church, for example. Thank you for your very significant gift to our church. As you know, because you've been here a long time, we value every gift, small, large, and all of those in between. Some gifts, however, by their magnitude, allow us to do more and do it faster. Yours is one of those gifts and we need those gifts along with all the others. So from the bottom of my heart as your pastor, thank you. Right. So everything I just said there I can say without presuming what God might say to you. And I'll let you and God deal with whether that's a generous gift or not. Right. And it just feels like that in, especially in some churches and some organizations, we use a word like that so often it begin. Gets commoditized and cheapened. I want to reserve it for when I really see something. And I think, oh, that meets the standard. And what Mark said is right. It's more likely a more meager lesser gift than it is a larger gift.
- [30:26]
Kevin Gentry
Well, this is good. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, so now on this, then, what about tithing? What is, what does tithing mean? How is it defined? What, what is, what is the biblical obligation, expectation? How do you respond to tithing?
- [30:48]
Jim Shepard
Well, that's a question that you would get a lot of answers in churches today. And you know, one of the things that's interesting to me, Kevin, is most churches can tell you what they believe about baptism, but they can't tell you what they believe about giving. I mean, they can't even describe, you know, what their view on tithing is. There's several views on the tithe. For example, is the tithe just to the local church is a tithe. Everything you give, including the local church. What I mean, just all of those things. And there's the Bible doesn't speak to which one is right or wrong. It is kind of light baptism. They're among godly people. There can be several different views and no one is wrong that everyone has their view. And it's okay because it's not one of the essentials. Historically, in the Old Testament, the tithe would be. And interestingly, there were, there was more than one. So there was a, an annual, there were two annual ties and then there was a third time that occurred every three years. And then there was Actually a seventh year tithe, which is a lot of people forget about. So. But historically in the modern church, we've talked about the 10th, 1 10th, and churches have talked about the 10th as being kind of the foundation to giving. I think it's, you know, problematic in a lot of churches that the way what I see, Kevin, in churches, the way they teach it, is a couple problems. One is it feels like they teach it as an endpoint and you've arrived and therefore it becomes a lid. You think that you've kind of gotten there. I think that's a problem because it's clearly, for me, I think it's a marker along the way. It's not an endpoint. The second thing is that for people who don't give, they hold it out there as the standard. Well, here's the problem. For a lot of people who don't give, they can't get there and they can't get there now, and so they just do nothing. And it has a lot to do with why we have so many undeveloped givers in the church. Giving, despite the fact that people would say, you know, say something otherwise that I've observed it in the church is a journey for almost all people. There is the occasional purpose of personal person who gets converted, baptized, and tithes all at the same time. That's not the norm for everybody else. It's a journey. And so when we're teaching tithing, it ought to be a step along the way for everyone who's serious about taking their giving to the next level and then move beyond that, you know, so one, one pastor, I love the way he said this. He said. He said, Jim, he said, the tithe is really just the training wheels that God puts on us. We're just learning how to give until we get there. And once we get beyond that, he takes the training wheels off and says, now y'all go and do some real giving. That's a really good way to say that from my perspective.
- [33:33]
Kevin Gentry
Mark, any comments?
- [33:34]
Mark Dillon
Jim, you probably know this better than. Than others, but unfortunately, the common conception about money and generosity in the church is not too different than it is in the world.
- [33:49]
Jim Shepard
Oh, yeah, that's.
- [33:50]
Mark Dillon
I've seen.
- [33:51]
Jim Shepard
That's. That's exactly right.
- [33:52]
Mark Dillon
In your congregation, probably only 10 or 15% of your attenders are giving at a tithe or above. So that leaves a long way to go. And I don't know if this has changed over the years, Jim, but you can usually count on 50% of the congregation, the regular attenders who give a Hundred dollars or less a year to the church. So we got a lot of work to do there.
- [34:17]
Jim Shepard
That's remarkable. How do you know that, Mark? You don't even work with churches that much. That is spot on because I see the stats all the time, right?
- [34:24]
Mark Dillon
You make me go to generous meetings three times a year. So I pick it all up.
- [34:28]
Jim Shepard
50% of the people give 4% and the other 50 give 96%. You know, it's not unusual to see that, right? And, and, and what happens in that is here's, here's, here's the big part of the problem. Kevin. So what we're really talking about is this idea of tithing gets put out there, and there's no other, no other standard that people give. And what we find is a lot of the giving systems, messaging and language and everything in the church is really wired to people who already give. People like Mark and like you and like me, right? When the people that we're really trying to get to is the undeveloped givers. And so what we need to do is give them a place to start. And one of the things we're seeing working really well in this big culture of generosity framework that we are unveiling for the, for the, for the, the market at large, we've been testing it for about a year and a half, is to give non givers this idea of give something, give it consistently, and grow in your giving. Right? Give them a pathway that's doable rather than a standard that they can't even find. It's just like, oh, gosh, I can't do that, so I'm going to do nothing. So that's pretty exciting to see that come out.
- [35:36]
Kevin Gentry
You guys are good and you clearly have found your gifts that God has given you and you've pursued them very, very well. How in the world did you each get into these fields? I've never yet found anybody in any kind of development, fundraising, stewardship, role that determined in middle school that that's what they were going to do in their life. Everybody fell into it or were led into it somehow. How did you each get into this area?
- [36:03]
Jim Shepard
Go ahead, tell your story a little bit. Mark.
- [36:05]
Mark Dillon
Okay, I'll tell you a little bit of my story. As a, as a young man, I prepared for ministry by pursuing a master of Divinity and just assumed that I would be serving in the, in the church. And as my career and upon graduation from seminary, we had a call to a church. But at the same time, the president of the seminary asked if I could stay and help them raise money for a library. He said, I've only got a job for you for two years, but would you, would you come and do that? And I was intrigued enough and excited enough to say yes. I took a crash course at Notre Dame University that summer and figured out a little bit about fundraising, came back and applied that, and God was gracious. We raised that money. And that two years turned into 10 years. It didn't take us that long to raise money for the library, but it's how long my career at the seminary lasted. And I came to see in that period that 10 years turned into a 30 year career of helping God's people be rich toward God and realizing that that is ministry as well. And so that's, that's how I got into it. And the, the Lord probably knew that the church could be spared my, my ministry, but I've had a, a ministry of its own kind with some very thoughtful and wonderful Christian stewards that have helped me grow as a, as a husband, as a father, as a churchman, as a giver. And I'm just grateful that the Lord put me on that path.
- [37:55]
Kevin Gentry
Well, we're grateful too. And somehow your brother Doug got involved with Jerry Panis and Jerry Lindsay and that firm and leading it. And we've all had the special blessing in Northern Virginia of working with your son Joel, who runs Jill's House, which was started by Lon Solomon and his wife. What a, what an extraordinary ministry in so many ways. Thank you, Mark. All right, Jim, how did you did. How did you get into this area?
- [38:22]
Jim Shepard
Mine's a crazy story because I had never had any intention of being in any of this. I was a financial guy by training and background, came out of the business school at the University of Georgia and set my face towards a business career. And I was making my way. And I was with a very, very successful company where I was senior vice president and CFO. I became a Christian at age 28. So I was raised in the church. I didn't become a Christ follower until I was 28. And very quick, God started working on Nancy and me in our, our journey of giving. And it happened very quickly. Basically, we found out that we're two givers are married to each other. And so giving has never been a struggle for either one of us. Our journey of giving started really shortly after we gave our lives to Christ. But so what had happened was it was 1991, I was at a men's conference, and I thought God was calling me to leave my job and go, to go to seminary. I spent seven weeks trying to figure out really with the silence of God and just a really deep spiritual experience trying to figure out what God wanted me to do. Ended up that wasn't what he wanted me to do. And I just had the three words. After seven weeks of silence, what God said to me, seemed to say to me, was be still. And my pastor said, jim, I don't think you're supposed to make a decision right now. I think you're supposed to wait on God and let him show you where he wants you next. And I said, well, you think he'll make it obvious? I don't know. Let's wait and see. So the company I was with, public company, got bought out in spring of 1992 and in June of night, and I knew a reorg was going on, I thought I'd have a different place on the organization chart. They decided to reorganize and move my job to New York City where the company was headquartered. So I was out of a job in mid June, and I spent the summer of 1992 asking God what he wanted me to do next. Unlocked my original career, which I started based on what I wanted to do. Now that I'm a Christ follower, I wanted God to direct my steps. And I ended up coming to this company in September of 1992. I was consultant number five. Much smaller company back then. Thought I might do this for a few years and then go back into the corporate world. And here I am 32 years later. And I think this is what God spoke to me about at the altar that night. I just didn't know that. So.
- [40:28]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. And Generis is celebrating 35 years.
- [40:31]
Jim Shepard
35 years, yeah, that I mentioned. 35 years. 35. We actually have some. Some swag. 35 years.
- [40:39]
Kevin Gentry
That's great.
- [40:40]
Jim Shepard
Well, we want blinking lights, but we've got swag.
- [40:43]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I want to begin to wrap this up. I have two more questions. One is, so, you know, this is. I've called this podcast the Going big Podcast because, yeah, so many people are. Do have real visions for impact, for. For leadership, for making a difference. And, you know, how do we help them do that? And. And the Bible is full of stories from Abraham to Moses to David to Jesus, calling his disciples. We could go on and on. Do you have an example or two from your work of the transformational power of giving, what it may have done to an institution, to a church, to a ministry, to a person, to a leader, Anything that just springs to mind that you might be willing to share?
- [41:32]
Mark Dillon
I'VE got one big one that I won't spend much time on and one small one that is an amazing story I've told you. We have the privilege of working with Christian universities and one that I worked with had never done a comprehensive campaign growing university had a lot going for it, new president. I did a feasibility study for them and came back and said I think you can raise $100 million. And the president about hit the floor. He said We've got a 10 year plan and we can do this in 10 years, right? I said no, I think you can do it in three to five years. Long story short, they just closed their campaign last week at 178 million and they're going strong. And I'm going to tell you what the commonality is between that and the other little story. I'm going to tell you about an early client that I had in my consulting experience, $800,000 budget had a kind of a neat idea but were pretty localized in what they did. And we went and had conversations with some of their key potential givers sharing a bigger vision and, and the founder of this organization had a big vision and we decided to put together a little campaign which he worked on post campaign. He called me about a year ago and was so excited. He said we just got our first seven figure gift. And so that that one gift was way bigger than their, than their budget. A few years ago, six months ago he texted me and said just got our first eight figure gift. That's going, that's going big for a little organization.
- [43:36]
Kevin Gentry
Wow, that's great. Thank you for sharing that story. That's very inspiring and I hope encouraging to our listeners.
- [43:42]
Mark Dillon
And I would just say real quickly that what that university and what that small ministry had in common was a big idea, stellar communications of the vision and probably most importantly the courage to ask.
- [44:00]
Kevin Gentry
Great, great. All right, Jim.
- [44:03]
Jim Shepard
I think for me, Kevin, one of my favorite things is working with church planters who are just getting started. And one of the things I figured out some years ago and I've applied kind of the methodology with some modifications is that church starts and business starts are really very similar. And the reason that a lot of church plants don't succeed is not because they don't have good leadership or good location or good ideas or things. They just don't have enough startup capital. So it's kind of like, you know, if you had a restaurant, one of the things you know about your restaurant is you're going to have to finance the shortfall until you have enough Customers who can pay the bill. And I actually use this analogy in teaching church planners. I say good church plants fail for the same reason that good restaurants fail, and that is for lack of enough startup capital. If you're trying to reach unchurched people, we already know, even if they were church people, that giving is, is, is, is, you know, it's hard to get enough people up front. And if they're unchurched people, you don't want to put any pressure on them to give. So what if we were able to raise everything you need for the first two years from external givers? So you can literally stand up in front of your people on launch Sunday and say, hey, look, we're going to have great giving moments every week, and we're going to teach you what it means to be transformed by your giving. But I want you to understand we don't need your money because we have the first two years already paid for. And to see churches come out of the ground, I'm thinking three or four churches right now that are thriving, and it's because they had enough startup capital to be able to see it through and make it happen. And then we have, you know, a couple of large churches that within the last couple of years, we've been fortunate to be a part of, of, of two campaigns that went way over $100 million for churches. And to, to see the amount of ministry, Kevin, that gets unleashed when churches are able to put that much on the table is just, I mean, it's just. It gives you. It gives you goosebumps. And so that's my favorite. It's just kind of like Mark, a smaller and a larger story. And. But seeing those church planters who. God has given them this vision, this thing that they're going to go do to some community and they're going to change the world there, but they have no idea how they're going to pay for it. We get to sit in the room and help them figure that out. And it's just. It's fun. It's fun. If I wasn't having fun doing it, I'd probably have retired before now. I'm old enough. I'm just not ready to do it.
- [46:27]
Kevin Gentry
Exactly. Well, don't you retire anytime soon. But you are both richly blessed, and we are all blessed by that. You know, it was the Awakening of Washington's church by J.B. simmons. That's the book about the false church Anglican and the role, the indispensable role played by the Reverend John Yates, who came to what was a Dying church in the late 1970s and turned it into just something that was, has been transformational. And you'd mention about starting churches, you know, he's done a remarkable job did over a period of time starting so many daughter churches from the Falls Church, even granddaughter churches as we call them, and then also raising up new leadership like Sam Ferguson, who is the rector of the Falls Church Anglican today. So, so, so many.
- [47:18]
Jim Shepard
And the fun part for me, Kevin, was and we don't need to call any names or anything because you, you know what I'm talking about. But to see so many of the people who are in influential decision making roles in Washington D.C. who were in that sanctuary every Sunday getting spiritually fed by that church, that just, I mean that for me was just an extra special thrill in working with those guys. And John, by the way, I mean, I think I can say this because I see a lot of them. There ain't a lot of John Yates out there. There's not many of them. He's a special breed.
- [47:52]
Kevin Gentry
Amen. Amen. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's a, that's an important point. Well, in drawing this to a close for our listeners who are trying to figure out what they can do here on earth and pursue their gifts other than read the Bible and pray, what encouragement would you give to them in line with this conversation today about how they may pursue their gifts and, and these blessings and, and think about giving.
- [48:25]
Mark Dillon
I would say this and you may be laboring in a, not an overtly Christian organization, but you're doing good work in the world or you may be in a distinctively Christian organization, but I would just say embrace an eternal perspective on your day to day work. Randy Alcorn and his wonderful book the Treasure Principle said it really well. He said think about the dot and the line. And he said the dot is this earth, the line is eternity. And your work, our work deals with the here and now. Right. What's, what's happening right now. But it counts toward eternity. And you have the privilege of helping people think beyond themselves for God's good purposes. Helping raise money for the common good gives hope and sustenance to people in need and it gives joy to the giver. And I think that's, that's what God intended for us.
- [49:29]
Kevin Gentry
Thank you. Jim. Before you start, would you remind us all about Mark's important book, consequential book that he wrote that maybe we should.
- [49:39]
Jim Shepard
All look into easy to find it, Giving and Getting in the Kingdom, A field guide to Christian fundraising. It is an amazing book. And we were fans of the book before Mark joined our team. So when he joined our team, I was able to say we've hired to head our advancement division, literally, the man who wrote the book. Not figuratively the man who wrote the book. We were using that book even among our church clients before then. And even though it was written so some 10, 12 years ago, it is timeless, Kevin. That's what we love about it. It's time. And many of the things you've heard Mark say today, you'll find described in more detail in his book. Book.
- [50:21]
Kevin Gentry
Wonderful. Well, Jim, take us home. Well, maybe that's the right way to say take us home, because our home is. Is yet to come. But while we're here on Earth, take us home. And rounding out this conversation today, what encouragement would you give to those who are listening about how they might pursue their gifts in an even more enriching way?
- [50:42]
Jim Shepard
Well, my encouragement would be not to hang around with Mark too much, because you end up thinking like him, because he. What he just said was almost exactly what I was thinking. I was just thinking it in different terms. So I would say in God's economy, nothing is wasted. You have more to offer than you even realize. And even the smallest thing that you may have to offer, as Mark said, if you're not even laboring in a Christian context, God will use that for the common good in a way that blesses you. And the. You know what the ultimate go big is, Kevin? Is investing in eternity. That's the ultimate go big. It doesn't get any bigger than that because the Bible is really clear. Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust, nor the stock market nor the political actions or anything else can cause it any harm. It's. It's gone for good. And so the way I think about it is when you giving to God's work here on earth, it's like you're sending your money ahead of you and you're putting it into a place where you just say, okay, God, I've done this. So you get the glory and you get the credit, and there's nothing. If you're going big, there's nothing bigger than that. And so I would like to echo Mark's words and add my little commendation on there as well.
- [51:50]
Kevin Gentry
Well, Jim Shepard and Mark Dillon, this really has been a treat today. God bless you both and thank you so much. And ladies and gentlemen, I hope you will look into Generis and Jim Shepard and Mark Dillon and all they're doing, they can help an awful lot. Thank you and peace be with you. Thank you, Kevin Kevin, thanks for listening to today's Going Big podcast. Hopefully you were inspired to go big for your cause. Remember, this is all about transforming your effectiveness by 10x ing your fundraising. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe or leave us a review at iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also catch this episode on YouTube. And also there are lots of resources available to you at my website, which is 10xStrategies.com that's T E N X strategies dot com. You can sign up also for our free weekly fundraising tips. This is all about helping you get to the root causes of some of the biggest problems in society today by transforming your your fundraising and your effectiveness. Thanks again. We'll see you again soon. Bye.