← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death: How Patrick Henry Went Big and Changed History
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- [00:00]
Sponsor Announcer
This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You, you'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com, save $80 with code space80 at talk.
- [01:01]
Stephen Wilson
So I would just say that, you know, when you're trying to accomplish something, do go big. You know, if you're successful, you've got a big win under your belt. If you don't succeed, at least you didn't succeed big. If you've got a decision between going big and I'll, I'll use the example of Ken Burns. You know, this was my, my personal kind of brainchild I wanted for this 250th, I wanted to have a big name celebrity. It was just, I needed to have it because if we had Ken Burns or we had some a list celebrity, people were going to say, wow, they got Ken Burns. This must be a big deal. And we could have had maybe a smaller celebrity, but we chose to go big and we landed big. And it has really helped this 250th anniversary, which was going to be big anyway, become even bigger and better. So I would just say go big, succeed big, or fail big.
- [01:55]
Kevin Gentry
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to light. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Well, ladies and gentlemen, this is a very exciting episode of the Going Big podcast. Few people in history have had such an impact and make such a case for going big than Patrick Henry in terms of what he did for the world in the course of our own quest for personal human freedom. And 250 years ago this March, March 23, 1775, Patrick Henry gave that famous liberty or death speech. And so in time with that, I am so pleased to welcome Stephen Wilson, who leads the St. John's Church Foundation. This is an organization that has its mission to spark worldwide interest in the importance of, of Patrick Henry in making the case for freedom. But it's a little bit more of a complicated story than you might think. And that's why I'm especially excited to be able to dive into this. Stephen, welcome. First of all, I want you to tell us where you are, which is in itself quite remarkable. And then I want you to tell us why is Patrick Henry so big, so important in terms of going big for all of us?
- [03:57]
Stephen Wilson
Sure. Well, Kevin, thank you for having me on the show. I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to talk about all things Give me liberty or give me death. Now, you asked me where I am. I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I am in the oldest neighborhood in Richmond, Churchill. And I'm in the oldest church in Richmond, which is St. John's Church. The doors to this church opened in 1741. This is not only the place where Patrick Henry delivered his give me liberty or give me death speech, but this is literally the place about an arm's length away from me where he uttered those famous words on March 23, 1775. So we're literally standing, I mean, we're in history. But the very spot where he delivered that speech.
- [04:37]
Kevin Gentry
Amazing. All right, so what, why was what he did that day. We had a lot to talk about, but why was what he did that day so important?
- [04:48]
Stephen Wilson
Sure. So Patrick Henry delivers his speech during an event that's referred to as the second Virginia Convention. There were roughly about one hundred and twenty delegates from across the colony of Virginia who came here. But on March 23, during this several day convention, Patrick Henry is going to propose a resolution. And that resolution is for Virginia to establish a well regulated militia. This is a big deal because at the time only Massachusetts had an established militia. Patrick Henry is essentially saying to all of the delegates who were here, enough's enough. We're not going to reconcile with England. We need to position this colony into a state of defense and ready ourselves for war. If Patrick Henry's resolution passes, which it ultimately did, it is going to ensure that if there is an armed conflict in New England, which, you know, the first shots were fired just 27 days after Patrick Henry's speech up at Lexington and Concord, this will not be a regional conflict contained just to New England. This will be a true American revolution. So a very big idea indeed.
- [05:54]
Kevin Gentry
Amazing. Okay. And there's, again, we're going to get into a lot more because it's a fascinating story and it's so key to all of our history. But first of all, let me go back a little bit. What is it about Patrick Henry's life that would have predicted he would go big in this way?
- [06:13]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah. Patrick Henry is 38 years old at the time of the speech. He is a. You know, there were younger delegates here, but he was a relatively young delegate. He was representing Hanover County, I think. Kevin, you're from Hanover, if I remember correctly. Hanover county is located just north of Richmond. So he will be one of two delegates from Hanover here at the convention. He is an attorney. He is generally regarded, widely regarded, as the greatest orator in the colony of Virginia, but he is also a bit of a firebrand. I have never actually made this comparison before, but I was thinking about it a couple of minutes ago. I would say that Patrick Henry is to Virginia as Sam Adams is to Massachusetts. You know, he is. He's. He's a fire starter, and people knew that. And he had been that way for a long time. He had been touting independence for a long time. So, you know, yes, Patrick Henry dropped a bombshell on this convention when he proposed that Virginia establish a militia. But it probably was not a great shock to those delegates that he was, you know, going that. Going that way.
- [07:15]
Kevin Gentry
Well, my understanding is that, first of all, we know him as a great orator, and that was key and central to the cause because he played that key role. But it's interesting you compare him to Samuel Adams, who also went big. He was another. He was. He was a tremendous strategist, and both of them were strategic. It wasn't just like, he gave a speech and we just, you know, waited for the outcome. It was very strategic, which I want to. Want to dive into. And I got to say, Stephen, thank you. Yeah. My. My parents are both born and raised in Hanover County. I lived there for a while and there's a lot of history there. But what's especially cool for me is that 50 years ago I went to the reenactment of Patrick Henry's speech for the American Bicentennial. The big show was at the Richmond Coliseum. And I went to that as a young child and it made a big impression on me. So that's why I'm so excited to be here with you today. All right, so 1775, you've mentioned that, you know, they're stirring up a lot of stuff in Massachusetts, Boston, Sons of Liberty, that's where it all is. But Sam Adams knew and others knew, if it was just a Boston based quest for independence, it wasn't going to go very far. So what's going on? Help us understand how does Virginia fit in and how does the role of Patrick Henry make such a difference?
- [08:39]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah, I'm going to, I guess I'll take your, your, your viewers to the fourth grade. We'll talk about no taxation without representation. I'll go through this real fast. So you mentioned the Boston Tea Party, which would have been in December of 1773. Takes a little while for word to get back to England. But In March of 1774, about a year before Patrick Henry delivers his speech, Parliament is going to pass the first of the Coercive Acts. Now, in the colonies, they're going to call these the Intolerable Acts. The Intolerable Acts are essentially retribution against Massachusetts for their involvement in the Boston Tea Party. The Coercive Acts or the Intolerable Acts are going to include the Quartering act, they're going to include the Boston Port act or the closing of the Port of Boston. Now, you may be wondering, why am I, why am I talking so much about Massachusetts? What does this have to do with Virginia? Well, if we segue to Virginia, the elected officials in Virginia, the members of the House of Burgesses, are very concerned about what is happening up in Massachusetts. And in the summer of 1774, they show their support for Massachusetts by praying and fasting. Well, the royal Governor of Virginia, a man by the name of Lord Dunmore, is going to retaliate against the members of the House of Burgesses by dissolving that body. They, as of the summer of 1774, no longer have any legal authority. But the members of the House of Burgesses decide that they're going to meet in a series of conventions. They are referred to as the Virginia Conventions. The first one's going to be in Williamsburg at the Raleigh Tavern in August of 1774. It is not a particularly well attended convention with less than 30 delegates, but it is the second Virginia convention, the one that's held right here in March of 1775 on the eve of war. That is very well attended with 120 delegates representing, you know, every county in Virginia.
- [10:31]
Kevin Gentry
So 120 delegates come from all over the colony of Virginia to St. John's Church in Richmond. And why are they gathering? Are they just debating? Are they supposed to be coming up with articles of independence? I mean how does this kind of fit into what we're about to see spell out over the next year?
- [10:50]
Stephen Wilson
It is a several day convention. They are electing delegates to go to the second Continental Congress. And then Wham O. Patrick Henry is going to propose this resolution on March 23rd. Some of the delegates who were here, I mean I'm going to kind of point but way over on the other side of the church is going to be seated. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson is in the middle of the church. Richard Henry Lee is over on the other side of the church. He's regarded as the second greatest orator in Virginia after Patrick Henry. Thomas Nelson is right over here. Benjamin Harrison is here. Robert Carter Nicholas is here. The president of the convention is Peyton Randolph who will be seated up front. These are some of the folks who are here and as you can imagine some are going to be for George Washington is going to be for Patrick Henry's resolution to arm as is Thomas Jefferson. But many are going to be against Patrick Henry's resolution. They are going to say this measure passes or pushes too far. This is treason. We need to have patience. The glorious days of old will return. And so there are a lot of arguments and debates going back and forth and that's when Patrick Henry will ultimately stand up and he will deliver is give me liberty or give me deaf speech. Following that speech the president will take a voice vote and Patrick Henry's resolution will pass very, very narrowly.
- [12:08]
Kevin Gentry
All right. Okay, so just a couple more questions about this and then I'm going to ask you maybe to recite a few key lines. I can do that just to give us the, the, the full view of it all. So, so it's easy for us to think now. Well gee, should certainly all everybody in the colonies wanted independence and because of the were acting. But you're saying that there are a lot of people that may not have liked the heavy hand of Britain but yet they were safe and prosperous and, and it was peaceful. And so how did, how did Patrick Henry think about crafting his remarks. So essentially back to, like Sam Adams being so strategic, Patrick Henry essentially had to move a group. What, right there in the middle?
- [12:55]
Stephen Wilson
That's correct. No, you've nailed it. So you're going to have folks like George Washington, who we know is going to be a yes vote, and Jefferson and others will be yes votes. And, you know, Edmund Pendleton will not be swayed. He will be a no vote. Robert Carter Nicholas will be a no vote. Benjamin Harrison will be a no vote. But there is a group in the middle who, as you can imagine, you know, they're unsure. They know that we need to preserve our relationship with England, but things have really become strained. Maybe we need independence. And so Patrick Henry really is crafting his arguments for those people in the middle. He has to convince just enough, you know, to, you know, to get the votes.
- [13:32]
Kevin Gentry
And my recollection from my study, and again, I studied this only because I went to the bicentennial reenactment, and I was always fascinated. But Patrick Henry drew from the Bible, a lot of references from the book of Jeremiah. He drew from a lot of classical texts, Latin, Roman and Greek plays and things, and also some plays that were popular in the colonies at the time. Is that right? He was. He was really trying to. To. To make his argument. Drawing from a lot of different stuff to make the case.
- [14:03]
Stephen Wilson
That is correct. Yeah. Cato being one of those plays he did and wish. Can we wait or should I do. Go ahead and do some of the.
- [14:10]
Kevin Gentry
No, I want you. So. So. So don your wig. Okay. Now, not everybody joined the podcast can see it. It's on YouTube. But. But some are just listening. But for effect, you've got the wig on. Don't give us the whole speech. Okay. But give us the key kind of element of the closing. We're there and we're just going to imagine ourselves as these people in the middle trying to decide what to do. And you've decided that the key is we've got to vote to raise a militia. Because it's not just about defending ourselves. It's a bit of a provocation. It's going to lead to independence if we vote this way. So. So help make the case.
- [14:53]
Stephen Wilson
I will. I will give you the first 90 seconds, and then I'm going to fast forward to the end of the speech so that you can see that between kind of calm and more fiery. I call to the president of the convention, Peyton Randolph. Says, that's a delegate From Hanover County, Mr. Patrick Henry, the floor is yours. No man thinks more highly than I do the patriotism as well as the abilities of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed this house. But different men oftentimes see the same subject in different lights. So I shall hope that it not be thought of as disrespectful to those gentlemen, if entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall set forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before this house is one of awful moment to our country. For my own part, I shall consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery, and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way in which we can hope to arrive at the truth and to fulfill our great responsibility to God into our country. All right, there's your beginning. Fairly calm. Patrick Henry again, 38 years old. There are much older and much more seasoned delegates here, so I actually think he is showing respect to those delegates. But Patrick Henry will at some point remove his glasses as he tended to do when he got really fired up, and we'll fast forward to the end of the speech. It is in vain to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry peace, peace. But there is no peace. The war has actually begun. The next gale that sweeps from the north shall bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms. Our brethren are already in the field. Why stand we here idle? What is it that the gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, a peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery forbidden? Almighty God, I know not what course others may take. But as for me, give me liberty or give me death.
- [17:15]
Sponsor Announcer
This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most Insured members have a zero dollar copay, no insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to talkspace.com Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com Save $80 with code SPACE80@Talkspace.com Wow.
- [18:17]
Kevin Gentry
Imagine if you were there and that you're. So the vote was taken.
- [18:21]
Stephen Wilson
The vote was taken right after Patrick Henry's speech. So Peyton Randolph is going to ask for a voice vote which passes narrowly. Wow.
- [18:30]
Kevin Gentry
Wow, wow, wow. And the rest is history. And Patrick Henry's decision to go big, we owe him a big debt of gratitude. Wow. Wow. Okay. All right, Stephen, that's wonderful. I've got some more questions for you and also how those listening can. Can participate in the actual celebration. But I gotta tell you, my. My daughter is a sixth grade social studies teach, Virginia, and she asked her sixth graders some questions for Patrick Henry, knowing that I was going to be able to ask you them. So I have a few questions. We're going to do a speed round, if that's okay. And I'm going to address you as if you're Patrick Henry, and you can answer them as if you're Patrick Henry. Okay? So you could do your best. All right, so here's some of the questions. All right, number one, how did you come up with your speech?
- [19:18]
Stephen Wilson
I think based on ideas and conviction. Patrick Henry, or excuse me, I, as Patrick Henry was, was long a proponent for liberty and independence. So based on my ideas.
- [19:32]
Kevin Gentry
Did you memorize the speech ahead of time or did you just say it from your heart?
- [19:36]
Stephen Wilson
Good question. So I did not write the speech down. There is no written account of the speech. So I think, you know, historians are unsure, you know, did I memorize it in advance or was I responding to those delegates and the things that they argued on the day of March 23, 1775? I think, you know, it's. It's a bit unclear.
- [19:55]
Kevin Gentry
All right, more questions from sixth graders. How did you think of that inspiring quote, give me liberty or give me.
- [20:01]
Stephen Wilson
Death heat of the moment.
- [20:05]
Kevin Gentry
Is that right?
- [20:07]
Stephen Wilson
That is my interpretation. I don't know that for sure, but that's the way I understand it.
- [20:11]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. All right, another question. Were you really that angry?
- [20:16]
Stephen Wilson
Inspired.
- [20:20]
Kevin Gentry
So why did you say it so dramatically? 4.
- [20:26]
Stephen Wilson
For dramatic effect.
- [20:29]
Kevin Gentry
And that's why you pretended to stab you. Did you. You pretended to stab yourself at the end?
- [20:33]
Stephen Wilson
I was actually holding a paper cutter. Now, you may not know what a paper cutter is. It kind of looks like a letter opener, but for dramatic effect. I said, give me liberty. And.
- [20:44]
Kevin Gentry
Or.
- [20:44]
Stephen Wilson
Excuse me. Or give me death and pretended to take that paper cutter and stab myself.
- [20:49]
Kevin Gentry
Okay, another question from sixth graders. Were you really willing to die for liberty?
- [20:55]
Stephen Wilson
I was, and so were my fellow delegates.
- [20:59]
Kevin Gentry
If you gave such a speech today, do you think it would have the same effect?
- [21:06]
Stephen Wilson
I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm going to pass on that one. I'm just not sure.
- [21:10]
Kevin Gentry
Good question. Good question. Okay, the last one. This is a fun one.
- [21:13]
Stephen Wilson
Okay.
- [21:13]
Kevin Gentry
Finally, we know that George Washington loved ice cream. What was your favorite ice cream?
- [21:19]
Stephen Wilson
Well, some of the favorite flavors in the 1700s included strawberry, vanilla, and some pronounce it apricot. Others pronounce it apricot. I'm going to go with strawberry.
- [21:31]
Kevin Gentry
All right, cool. Okay, now let's wrap this up. What happened next? What did Patrick Henry do after the liberty or death speech to continue to go big?
- [21:43]
Stephen Wilson
So Lord Dunmore was the last royal governor of Virginia, and Patrick Henry becomes the first governor of an independent and free Virginia. So he went very big. He is our first governor and held several terms in office.
- [21:58]
Kevin Gentry
All right, so March 23, 1775. March 23, 2025. Tell us a little bit about the St. John's Church foundation and how you all will be commemorating that moment.
- [22:14]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah, so the. The foundation is a 501c3 nonprofit. We've been around since the 1930s. Our mission is one that is focused in two key areas, one of which is to raise funds so that we can preserve this very old and very special place. But the other part of our mission is to educate the public about the importance of Patrick Henry's speech and its impact on the American revolution. So on March 23rd of this year, we are going to host three liberty or death reenactments which are going to feature nine professional actors in 1700s costumes. They will be seated all around this church and they will recreate the arguments and the debates that happened in 1775. They're going to be at 1:30, 3:30 and 5:30. Now, the bad news is that they're all sold out. But there's good news. All of you who are watching this can tune in at www.va250. Go right to the main homepage, and you will be able to watch through a live stream that 1:30pm reenactment as we remake history. And I will say that we've got a very special guest who will be here. I think most of you will know the name Ken Burns, the PBS documentarian. He will kick us off with introductory remarks and kind of get us off of the bang.
- [23:28]
Kevin Gentry
Great. And the website, it's VA. Lakevirginia va250.org that is correct.
- [23:34]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah.
- [23:35]
Kevin Gentry
And Virginia, obviously, is doing a lot to commemorate the. What is it? Semi sesquicentennial with the 250th anniversary of the country, because Virginia played such an important role, as did the other 12 colonies. And there'll be a lot. I'm sure that'll unfold soon. And it is exciting that only just a few weeks later, in Concord and Lexington, after Paul Revere's ride, we heard the shot heard around the world, and that's when the conflict began, and George Washington was soon called into service to command the troops.
- [24:06]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah, we've got a couple of catchphrases here at St. John's we like to say that it was right here where liberty found its voice, and it was at St. John's Church where the spark for the American Revolution was ignited. It was just 27 days later, after Patrick Henry's speech, when those first shots were fired at Lexington and Concord up in Massachusetts.
- [24:24]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. All right, so you all are. The. Y'all are sparking this understanding, greater understanding of the cause for freedom as its origins there at St. John's Church. Stephen, just tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into this role? And how do you see the role in helping people to think and go big?
- [24:41]
Stephen Wilson
Yeah, so I started with the foundation back in 2019. I was the first director of development in the organization's history, and I became the executive director in early 2021. So I've been with the organization for about six years. A little bit about me, you know, I like to hike. I like to get up to the Blue Ridge Mountains. I like to garden. I've got a lot of fig trees on my property, so I guess you could say I maintain an urban fig orchard. But my vision for this organization, I'm asked this all the time, and I usually will say more. Maybe I should say big, but more, you know, we want to spark a global. And I say global appreciation for Patrick Henry's speech. And that means doing more podcasts like this. It means doing more reenactments. It means educating the public so more people are aware of this very important history that happened literally, you know, right where I'm standing.
- [25:34]
Kevin Gentry
Terrific. All right, Stephen, in closing, what advice would you give to those listening about how they should think about going big?
- [25:43]
Stephen Wilson
So I would just say that, you know, when you're trying to accomplish something, do go big. You know, if you're successful, you've got a big win under your belt. If you don't succeed, at least you didn't succeed big. If you've got a decision between going big and I'll, I'll use the example of Ken Burn Burns. You know, this was my, my personal kind of brainchild I wanted for this 250th, I wanted to have a big name celebrity. It was just, I needed to have it because if we had Ken Burns or we had some, you know, a list celebrity, people were going to say, wow, they got Ken Burns. This must be a big deal. And we could have had maybe a smaller celebrity, but we chose to go big and we landed big. And it has really helped this 250th anniversary, which was going to be big anyway, become even bigger and better. So I would just say go big, succeed big, or fail big.
- [26:37]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that's awesome, and I'm glad to use this podcast as a way for more people not only to think about going big, but to be exposed to the revolution that Patrick Henry helped start. Okay, the final question. How do you think Patrick Henry would advise us and inspire us to go big?
- [26:55]
Stephen Wilson
I think Patrick Henry would say, trust your conviction and your beliefs and don't compromise.
- [27:05]
Kevin Gentry
That's awesome. Stephen, thank you so much for joining us. Best of luck to you on the celebration. We all hope to see much more of it play out. Thanks so much for joining us.
- [27:13]
Stephen Wilson
Well, Kevin, thank you for having me. And I hope it's not another 50 years before you attend one of our reenactments.
- [27:18]
Kevin Gentry
Indeed. Looking forward to it. Thanks again.
- [27:20]
Stephen Wilson
All right, thank you.
- [27:22]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources, and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge. The limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.
- [28:04]
D
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