← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big: Political Revolutions, Fundraising, and Friendship Across the Aisle with Roger Craver and Richard Viguerie
01:01:43
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Kevin Gentry
Your message amplified.
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Richard Vigory
Ready to share your message with the world? Start your podcast Journey with Podbean.
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Roger Craver
Podbean.
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Richard Vigory
Podbean.
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Roger Craver
PodBean.
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Kevin Gentry
Podbean.
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Richard Vigory
The AI powered All in one podcast platform. Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean.
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Roger Craver
To launch their podcasts.
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Kevin Gentry
Launch your podcast on podbean today.
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Roger Craver
My school uses Podbean.
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Richard Vigory
My church, too. I love it. I really do.
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Roger Craver
And we had lost the elections of 19 Democratic senators, and Richard called and said, oh, Roger, you're about to become very rich. And I was wondering, what is he talking about? Well, what this sets off is a reaction. Victory on one ideological end sets off a reaction on the other. Well, now I think what we're having on both sides is a revival of citizenship, which is even more important than donorship. It's people getting involved who aren't about to. I mentioned that one of the big enemies of democracy is disillusionment. The other is apathy. And I think we're moving out of this area of apathy on the part of millions of Americans into a more energetic part. Now, there will continue to be ideological disputes, and that's fine. That's what a democracy is all about. But I think we're in for a pretty feisty time.
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Richard Vigory
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to life. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube, or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Ladies and gentlemen, today on the Going Big podcast, we have two giants of marketing and fundraising. On my left is Roger Craver, who pioneered the use of direct response fundraising to either launch, grow, or revitalize such household names as Common Cause, the aclu, the Sierra Club, National Organization for Women, naacp, the Wilderness Society, on and on and on and on my right, in a similar fashion, Richard Vigory pioneered the use of direct response fundraising to build the American conservative movement, helping organizations like Young Americans for Freedom, the National Right to Work Committee, American Conservative Union, Gun Owners of America, many other causes. We're going to have some fun today because really, in terms of going big, both of these gentlemen thought Big led big and went big, and they continue to do so. And there's a lot that they can share in terms of their insights they've accumulated in wisdom over the years. I think you're going to really enjoy this. So, gentlemen, this is fun. One of the, one of the questions I'm going to ask is how you all got to know each other. And I know you don't have. You're not competitors because you wouldn't have the same clients. But there's so much to talk about in terms of how you all have gotten to know each other. But let's talk about impact. My first question is, can someone today, in your judgment, still go big based on their own personal values and political beliefs? If they want to go solve a problem out in the world through the political process, can they still do that in America today, based on your experience? Roger, I'll let you kick us off, okay?
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Roger Craver
Yes, absolutely they can. It may be a bit more expensive than it was 60 years ago, but the test for going big right now in these times is you absolutely must be committed to renewal, not resignation. If you're on my side of the.
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Kevin Gentry
Aisle.
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Roger Craver
The going big is. Is as American as apple pie. Because what this democracy depends on are citizens and active citizens. You know, the worst condition of a country is when the citizens get disenchanted. And that's how Richard and I both got into this. The country was extraordinarily disenchanted in the 60s. Remember, we had the war in Vietnam. We had a Congress made up of all, and the White House, all Democrats. We had the assassinations of Kennedy, then King, then the other Kennedy. So, yes, and it really takes a faith in citizens and the ability to organize them to go big. But it is the citizen, not the political parties, not the institutions that. That are the key here.
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Richard Vigory
Terrific. All right. Well, Richard, I'm going to ask you that next. But, Roger, you've already hit on something that I really wanted to draw out today, and that is, frankly, how both of you all democratized the political process in so many ways beginning in the 1960s, but continued to do. But first, Richard, can someone still go big today? By the way, I guess to some degree you have your book Go Big, so maybe you're answering the question just with the title of your book, but can someone in 2025 still go big?
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Kevin Gentry
Absolutely. And I, you know, say dittos to everything Roger said about that question. However, it is more challenging, more difficult, and you, you can't operate the way that Roger and I did back in the 60s and 70s, 80s, the cost is sky high. As Roger alluded to, competition is severe out there. It used to be people maybe be exposed to and commercial today now is 5,6000 and growing. And you know, everything is different. We have, we had problems back there, but now, you know, there's just turmoil everywhere in the country, in the world. Neither the right nor the left has obvious leaders these days. People are. They don't have the confidence in the institutions that they used to. And although Roger would agree with me, it was true then, more so now, maybe lack of professionalism by people in nonprofit marketing. I say many times I wouldn't dream of flying in an airplane with a pilot who had the skills of the average person in nonprofit marketing. So if you're a young person starting off right now, you read, read, study, study the giants that Roger and I not only read, but many of us, we knew them personally and they've none have to play Lewis and Clark. Giants have come before us. Study these, read them. And because the competition is so weak out there, then within a few years you can be in the top 5% of your profession.
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Richard Vigory
All right, very good. Well, you know, I just spoke recently with another great fundraiser, Jeff Brooks, who commented that, you know, there's so many amateurs in fundraising that that's why so many poor decisions are made and there is a tremendous lack of professionalism. I want to dig into that. But let's talk about the role of leadership. As we were just getting started here, we just commented on the sad passing of Ed Fulner, who was one of the founders of the Heritage foundation, grew that into a tremendous force on the right, the American conservative movement. He co founded that with his friend Paul Weyrich. Richard, I'm going to start with you. What role does leadership play in going big?
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Kevin Gentry
It's. It's the ball game. And I went in summer of 1961 to New York to be the executive secretary of, to run Young Americans for freedom. That was 63, 64 years ago. Today we have the same need we had in 1961, leadership on the conservative side. Living occasionally now and then. We have the leaders that we need, but we don't have near the leadership that the left has left. With Eric Holder and Mark Elias and John Podesta, James Carville, Bill Clinton, Obama. We don't have one person at that level on our side. We used to have Newt Gingrich, but Newt's not on the national playing field these days. So we lack leadership. And one of the things I say to young People. And I know I speak to a lot of young people, as Roger does, regularly. I tell them, don't wait for somebody to knock on your door and ask you to lead. You know, nobody asked Donald Trump to lead or Barack Obama. They put themselves out there for it. And nobody asked me to do what I did. I just saw a need. I rushed to the sound of the guns. And I urge young people, if you have an interest in this area, that area, whatever it might be, provide that leadership. Don't wait for an invitation because it's not likely to come.
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Roger Craver
I second that wholeheartedly. My mentor, my leader, was John Gardner when we started Common Cause. And here was a man who was an academic who had helped found the oss, which is the forerunner of our CIA, who, when I met him, he had just resigned from the Johnson Cabinet over the war, war in Vietnam. He was the one that put Medicare together functionally for the Johnson administration. But he was a, he was an extraordinarily moral man, just, just as others on Richard's side were. They had, they had a set of values they, they had a drumbeat they marched to. That I don't necessarily agree with, but it, they were driven by. They had a value system and, and the, the one thing that, that all these leaders have in common, they all strive for excellence in what they do. And Richard's point about learning from, in marketing and fundraising, learning from the masters is important. And what so many people don't do these days is put the investment into becoming as excellent as you can. We all owe an obligation to our country to be as good as we can and to our profession to be as good as, as we can. And that means continual learning. That means reading, studying, failing, picking yourself back up, trying it, trying it again and again. There, There is. One of my, one of my big worries is that I think we've, somewhere along the line in the last couple of decades, we've, we've handed young people cut flowers when we should have been teaching them how to grow a plant. And that's a, that's a real, a real problem. Everyone thinks this stuff comes so easily. It doesn'. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of reading, thinking, asking, failing, succeeding, failing again. It's a, it's a real process.
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Kevin Gentry
Kevin Let me, let me just jump in quickly and say that. When I went to New York in 1961 to run young Americans of Freedom, I regularly came in contact with intellectual giants. Bill Buckley, Frank meyer, Brent Bozell Jr. Chamberlain, Bill Rusher. And I was just blown away. And so for a year and a half, two years, I studied everything they did. They were reading Edmund Burke or Adam Smith and all Russell Kirk, all these giants out there. And so I tried to do a deep dive on that. And after about a year and a half, I realized I wasn't making a lot of progress here. And I didn't go to Yale, Princeton, Harvard. So I made a conscious decision that while we had some of these intellectuals out there and some publications and some good candidates, we didn't have anybody that could market them. So I decided to make a deep dive study of marketing and become the best marketer that I could. I literally went to my wife, we had two babies in, and I said, honey, I've got something here. I think it's going to change America, maybe the world. This is really good stuff, important stuff, but I don't know it. I need to study it. Can I be relieved of all household duties? No. No diapers, no trash, no yard work. You know, she bought into it. And so for seven, eight, I made a deep study, hours and hours and hours studying the giants. And in those days, we didn't have people like Kevin Gentry and Roger Craver and Mal Warwick, Tom Ahern to learn marketing from. What we had out there was commercial marketing. And I studied that. To this day, at age 91, I still spend two to three hours a day studying marketing. And it is. I just can't emphasize that to young people enough. Study, study job giants that come before us. We don't have to play Lewis and Clark, just study these people who've come before you and study heavily the commercial world as well as the non profits.
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Roger Craver
Right.
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Richard Vigory
Well, thank you very much.
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Roger Craver
Go ahead, Roger, keep going and feel the joy that comes from recognizing that you're doing something that hopefully you love. If you don't love, you ought to get out of it. But if you love it, you will dig into it more and more and more, and particularly now. It's such a fascinating time. We not only have the knowledge over the last hundred years of how direct response works, but now we're beginning to see how the social media may or may not work, how artificial intelligence influences all this. The breakup of the three networks into a whole scattershot of different media. There's so much to master now, so many different channels. When, when Richard and I started, we, we had the channel of the U.S. postal Service, which no one else, interestingly enough, was using very much for that, that purpose. So there, there's always a channel that you can figure out to get to Get a message out and to. To help organize people.
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Richard Vigory
Well, well said. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I told you this was going to be a lot in this conversation to unpack in terms of going big, and already you're getting a good taste of it. Richard, it was Sir Isaac Newton who said, and it was a long time ago he said it, that I can see further when I stand on the shoulders of giants. There's so much we can learn from those who came before us. And thank you for, for emphasizing that point. I want to go now a little bit into your history and, and the real key contribution that you have made, both of you, and that is. And Roger, you touched on it when certainly you referenced John Gardner and Common Cause. And that is, in my judgment, the democratization of giving, of political giving. I mean, it was back in the 60s, which was a. Was a bleak time. There were the sort of big name, there's big, big organized labor on the, on the left, big donors on the big business on the right that kind of guided and influenced so much about elections. But you all both gave a voice to millions of people who had not been, for all intents and purposes, part of the political process up to that point. Sure, they were voting, but this was different. So, Roger, kick us off, if you would. How did you see that opportunity? Did it start with John Gardner? Was it Common cause? How did you see it? And then, Richard, I'll let you go after Roger.
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Roger Craver
No, professionally, it started with Gardner. But let me set the stage a little bit, because Richard and I were in exactly the same period of time. So let's do the backdrop for that. Back in the mid to late 60s and early 70s, most money for social change was either provided by the unions or by a few wealthy individuals and every once in a while, a foundation. There was no such thing as the phenomenon we have now of individuals giving. And what I ran into, and Richard speak for himself, I think he did also, was that you had two parties who controlled the funding of political campaigns. You had a relative handful who set the social agenda for whatever social issues were out there, and very little citizen's voice. And yet you had a war raging. You had just a horrible situation in our country. And when I went to work with John Gardner to start Common Cause, the founding motto of that was everybody's organized but the people, because the special interests were organized, the unions were organized, the big money was organized, but there wasn't any way that small gifts could come in. And I remember going to David Broder, who was then the columnist for The Washington Post and telling him about this idea. We were thinking about starting a citizens lobby where we'd ask people to pay $15 a year dues. And he looked at me like, like I was three headed. He said, there is no way citizens are going to do that. Al Barkin, who I went to see, who was a political director of the aclu, put it a little more succinctly. He said, craver, go back and tell Gardner. He's full of shit. So that was that, that was the, the way people looked at that. And then suddenly when we ran that ad in the New York Times Sunday back page, everybody's organized but the people. We were flooded with response. And I'll get in later to how we learned about direct response.
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Richard Vigory
Well, Roger, go into that just a little bit more now because if I remember my reading of history, people showed up for Common Cause events. I mean, this is the first time something like this had happened. They were responding and actually coming out and joining together in communities all over the country. Now, Richard, you can talk about, about how that happened on the conservative movement too. But Roger, that's what happened. How did that happen?
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Roger Craver
No, I remember the Monday, the Monday morning after we ran that New York Times ad that I got a call from Lubbock, Texas, a radio, a DJ at a radio station in Lubbock saying I got the Common Cause country and Western band here, who wants to go on and play. And he said, are they authorized? I said, we don't have a country in Western band, but sure, put them on. I mean, people just showed up. And so both Richard and I tapped into a vein of just unbelievable disillusionment, disenchantment. Call it what you will, it's what's been out there in our country in the last few years. It's a vein you have to tap into. It's I guess like drilling for oil, except. But I don't know anything.
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Richard Vigory
Well, I want to definitely bring it back to the current time now, because you're right, there's again this populism going on and, and it's tapping into people to, to give them that voice. But Roger, one more question and then Richard, I'm going to come to you. What do you mean in terms of tapping that sort of that, that vein? There was a problem. There were. People were upset, frustrated, disenchanted, really upset. And there was certainly a vision of something better because they thought there was an American dream. They believed in the country. You gave them the path to action. Is that what you did through direct response?
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Roger Craver
Yes.
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Richard Vigory
People wanted to sort of like, say, hey, if you're concerned about A and you want to get to B, here's how we can help you get there.
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Roger Craver
Right.
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Kevin Gentry
This is.
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Roger Craver
Everybody's organized with the people. You're feeling. You're feeling voiceless, you're feeling left out. Join with others. Let's make a voice together. Let's become a citizens lobby. And literally, in weeks, hundreds of thousands of people sprung up. And that is not due to any marketing skill we had then because we didn't have much, we had to learn a lot. But the vein of disillusionment was out there. And people. People really don't. I think many people don't understand that the strength of a democracy comes from the people. It doesn't come from the institutions. It doesn't come from the elected officials in office. It comes from the ground up. And every significant change in American history has come marching into Washington. It hasn't been thrown down from on high. And that's the magic of what Richard and I do, is we really are dealing with the individuals and giving them voice to come together to demand something.
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Richard Vigory
Well, here, here. And as we begin to celebrate the 250th birthday of our country, we can think back about the American Revolution and people like Thomas Paine and others who did a similar thing. Richard, what was happening while. While Roger was helping Common Cause and all these groups empower the people to speak out on their issues. What was going on on the right?
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Kevin Gentry
Well, let me start with playing off of something that Roger said about David Broder. In 1979, my office was in Tyson's Corner, hour or so from Washington, D.C. and so David came out, spent an hour, hour and a half with me sitting on my sofa. I remember very clearly. And he said, richard, something is happening in the country. The Democrats have a super majority in the House and the Senate. They have the White House. Of course, nothing is happening. They want this to happen. That happened. The legislation is not happening. I can't figure it out. You have any ideas? I said, well, David, I don't know if this is a partial answer to your concern, but let me tell you. And he said, by the way, I've been to Walter Mondale's office. I've been to the White House. I can't figure it out. So I said, here's something that you might think about, David. Now tell him what we're doing for all of these organizations, how we're mailing over 100 million postal letters every day. And something that I learned early on that, direct mail in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s, was the second largest form of advertising in the country. Second only the television today is the third because of the Internet. But in those days, it was the second largest form of advertising. Second only the television. And so when we're mailing 100 million letters, I am primarily urging people to take action. Call your congressman, your senator, you know, attend this meeting, get registered, vote for this person, call this person, make this donation. Using direct mail as a form of political action. Too many people in our industry, if you would think of it as fundraising, it, yes, it does that, but it has the ability to do so much more. And we were doing that. And so it's all under the radar. All under the radar. And so these things were happening. And not only was I doing that, but my friends and colleagues out there were all doing the same thing. And so you had hundreds of millions of letters out there acting as advertising, urging people to take action. So that was one of the reasons that the pressure, the heat that the Democrats were feeling in Congress was not appearing on NBC, cbs, abc, but it was very real.
- [25:23]
Richard Vigory
Podbean, your message amplified. Ready to share your message with the world? Start your podcast journey with Podbean.
- [25:31]
Kevin Gentry
Podbean, the AI powered all in one podcast platform.
- [25:35]
Richard Vigory
Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean.
- [25:38]
Roger Craver
To launch their podcasts. Use Podbean to record your podcast.
- [25:42]
Richard Vigory
Use PodBean AI to optimize your podcast. Use PodBean AI to turn your blog into a podcast. Use Podbean to distribute your podcast every everywhere. Launch your podcast on Podbean today.
- [25:56]
Kevin Gentry
When I got involved, Kevin, in the 1960s, the left had him to a large extent the same today had a monopoly on the mainstream media. Big media, not mainstream, but so it's big media. We didn't have access to abc, NBC, cbs, New York Times, Washington Post, Time magazine, Newsweek. We were the tree that fell in the forest in the 50s and 60s. And so starting with direct mail, we went around that blockage they had on the microphones of the country, went right into people's homes. And that changed everything when. When we began to think of direct mail as a form of communication, as a form of not just fundraising, but it's how you reach people. And in those days, we had heroes like Ronald Reagan, this is the 1970s, Jesse Helms, Phil Crane, Bob Dornan, congressman from California and others. And interesting enough, every one of those signed letters every year that went to tens of millions of people. So under the radar this was happening. And by the way, I caught an enormous amount of grief on abc, NBC, cbs, New York Times, Time magazine. Hardly a week went by that I wouldn't attack all of the attacks, all of the criticism stopped within a few hours. Election night, November 1980. Aha. That's what Vigory and friends had been up to. But I told my friends Paul Weirich and Morton Blackwell and Ed Fuller, Howard Phillips, others, don't worry. It's taken me 20 years to do this. It's going to take, take them 25 or 30 years. Not. So I said, you know, I'm smarter than they are. No, within five years, Roger caught up to us. And today they run circles around conservatives. In my opinion, the leftists are far superior marketers than the conservatives are. They have about, in my estimation, about 20,000 single issue nonprofits, conservatives, maybe 1500. They raised 700% one more money through their nonprofits from 700% more donors. And I just, that's why I wrote the book Go Big. I'm trying to light a fire under the conservatives because Roger's running circles around us.
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Roger Craver
Well, you know, it's really, it's really interesting.
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Richard Vigory
Hold on a second. If you would just, just like. So this is great, this is great. But to that you all both said that you, you utilized, you discovered direct mail as the vehicle at the time, postal mail to give voice. Let's fast forward 60 years now. Today a lot of people would challenge this, but yet I think you would agree that direct mail is still the workhorse of fundraising. Yet there's certainly other forms, digital. Roger mentioned social media. We have all elements related to the Internet. And Roger also, even after direct mail mastered telemarketing to a large degree. Where are we today with these technologies? Let's say yes, people are again very frustrated with the situation and the political parties, the political parties are both very unpopular. They're trying to get a voice. What's giving them a voice today? Roger, I'll let you go first.
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Roger Craver
Well, first of all, there is a belief, particularly among those who haven't mastered it, that direct mail is dead. To which I always say, well, if it's dead, it's one hell of an exquisite corpse because it still is, as you put it, the workhorse. And you can bring names in by social media and by email and through the web. But at the end of the day, if you want to hold on to them, mail has to come into play because it is the most personal next to a face to face meeting that you can do in mass and in a realistic, informed way. It has Content that is hard to provide in social media. It has a personalization that is difficult to do in, in many other forms of media. And, and as long as most of the people who give money are older because they have money, it is, it is still a welcome messenger. As a matter of fact, it's a better messenger now than it's been for some years because there's, there's little, little of it from the nonprofit world coming into people's mailboxes. You know, it's interesting, the commercial world, you sees direct mail increasing by about 40% a year. But the nonprofit world continues to wallow in the belief that it's a dying medium, which it isn't. I just wanted to add on Richard's point about the media. You asked at the start of this, Kevin, how we met. Well, we didn't actually meet, but I remember Nick Lehman of the Atlantic went after Richard for calling, basically calling Vigory Co. A scam because they were sending out all this mail and raising all this money and it was kind of unaccountable. And, and the, the press didn't realize this was advertising and they were critic and, and they were probably a bit jealous that a lot of those advertising dollars might have gone to them if not to, if not to the direct mail people. But the consultants and the, and the press on both sides were very, very unfriendly toward Richard and me. They didn't get what this was and they didn't understand it. And Richard had a wonderful phrase in those days. I don't know whether you remember Richard, but you just say direct mail is like a water moccasin. It's silent but deadly. So that was, that was a situation back then.
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Richard Vigory
I'm glad you remembered about the water Bacchus and that, that always created a great image for me as well. I joke because when I got started in fundraising 40 years ago, I was told the average age of a donor was 74 years old. And I think the average age of a donor today is about 74 years old. And obviously it's not the same person. Those, those 74 year olds 40 years ago are long gone. But it's just the nature of people's station in life, their discretionary income, the variety of reasons. But as we say, there are a lot of amateurs who are giving a lot of advice in this field. Richard, where do you see that we are today? And then I have a follow up question for you related to this, to both of you, but where do you see that we are today? Direct mail. Still the workhorse what's going on?
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Kevin Gentry
Well, yeah, very much. Again, I agree completely with what Roger said. You know, it, it is the workhorse. And I quote Roger all the time and sometimes and I quote him and say 94% of all the money is raised out there is from, in one way or another through direct mail or 90%, but some huge number because the people who have money, they're not surfing the Internet like you know, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, but they do get direct mail and they do look at their mail sometimes as they can get through the secretary, their gatekeeper. But the, the people who are raising the money in the development department, they're getting that mostly from people who give through the postal mail. But as I said earlier in our conversation today, the, the lack of professionalism is just shocking there. And I know, I read Roger's agitator daily and he talks about this regularly about the lack of professionalism among people doing digital marketing. Talk about scams out there, things like, hi Richard, this is Donald Trump. I'm going into a meeting in 20 minutes and first thing I'm going to say is, have we heard from Richard today? I mean it's just 25 year old kids who probably have a hard time spelling direct marketing, direct mail, you know, turn loose on the Internet and because it's so inexpensive, you know, they, they're, they're, they look, you know, pretty good. They're, everybody else is blind in marketing and they have blind one eye, blurred vision in the other. But they have the foggiest idea with what they're doing. They've never, they couldn't tell you who Claude Hopkins was, David Ogilvie, some of these giant Rossa Reeves out there. So the, if, if you really, really study your profession, the world's your Austrian. Just same opportunities that Roger and I had 60 years ago. Or they're, they're different and you have to approach them different. But the opportunity to use marketing to advance your political beliefs, your, your health and welfare beliefs, your religion, whatever it might be, it is still there. And I just encourage everybody. Oh, by the way, I can't speak for Roger, but I for myself, I am where I am right now. I'm sitting in this chair because of four mentors. I had four giants and I live out in the country regularly. Pass stop tree stumps out there. If ever I see a turtle or a tree stump, I know something. Somebody came along recently and put that turtle up there. He didn't climb up there. I didn't get to where I am right now. Without giants helping me along the way. People like Ed Mayer, Dick Benson, Dan Sullivan, still alive and very active these days mentoring thousands of entrepreneurs. So, you know, study, study, read, read, and the opportunity is there.
- [36:08]
Richard Vigory
Well, you, you touched on a number, both of you touched a number of important points. I want to try to follow up here effectively. Richard, you know, I worked for Morton Blackwell straight out of college. I've had him on the Going Big podcast. I learned so much from him about direct marketing, marketing, direct mail, fundraising, other aspects of fundraising, not just because his Leadership Institute trains in that space, but that he had been mentored by you. And very importantly, when he worked for you, you brought in these giants of the for profit world to teach your employees. That does not happen very much. Even though you'd think these lessons are there to do that, you know, we, we see today. I know we've talked about this, Roger. Richard, we've talked about this at different times. First of all, somebody that gets a marketing degree in college, they don't know marketing. They're not being taught about marketing. That really has application to the real world. But in the fundraising space, no one is prepared for a professional career in fundraising. So they jump in and try to do it intuitively. And again, to Jeff Brooks's point, they're amateurs. And you wouldn't have an amateur car mechanic fix your car. You wouldn't have an amateur brain surgeon operate on you, but that's what's happening in this area. So kudos. And by the way, I can't say enough. There's so many works of Rogers the Agitator is awesome. But your retention fundraising book, Roger, I still give that out. It's so, so good. And Richard, you've got so many great things. Your Go Big book is great. You've got a good online presence. Thank you for all that. You're doing well. I want to tap in more to this sort of where the country is today because you see things happen and boom. Even as we'll say, think what we will of President Donald Trump, he is kind of smart with respect to marketing, but he can even get knocked off his stride by miscalculating where the people are. In many ways. I'd like your sense of just how you see the country today and who's tapping into that. This is a podcast. Podcast we know had a tremendous effect in the 2024 election. We've been told that Donald Trump was able to activate new voters through podcasting, largely. And we also have artificial intelligence, which allows us to organize our data more effectively, write More clearly and in a more focused fashion, tell us sort of where the country is today and where those vehicles are to channel that energy. Roger, if you could start on this one.
- [38:47]
Roger Craver
Sure. I believe the country is just entering a period of citizen renewal as opposed to what we've been through the last few years, which is sort of resignation on the part of a lot of people. I think folks are waking up and they're saying, I gotta get involved. And in fact, it is an active citizenry that makes for a real democracy. Regardless of the ideology of the particular wings of a democracy, what is really essential here is the ability of citizens to take the extra time at the end of a day's work, have enough psychic energy to get involved at a school board meeting or to go to a library board meeting, or to. Who go to a town hall meeting of a member of Congress or whatever that is coming back. And so those who think that the Democratic Party is dead or dying or whatever, that's kind of irrelevant in terms of what's going on out in the country. I think there is a renewal of spirit and commitment. And I can see that in the nonprofits I work with, giving is up dramatically. I mean, and Richard would understand that because I remember the night Ronald Reagan was elected, I got this phone call because we had lost President Kennedy's election and we had lost President Anderson's election, and we had lost the elections of 19 Democratic senators. And Richard called and said, oh, Roger, you're about to become very rich. And I was worrying. What is he talking about? Well, what this sets off is a reaction. Victory on one ideological end sets off a reaction on the other. Well, now I think what we're having on both sides is a revival of citizenship, which is even more important than donorship. It's people getting involved who aren't about to. You know, I mentioned that the. One of the big enemies is. Is of democracy is disillusionment. The other. The other is apathy. And I think we're moving out of this area of apathy on the part of millions of Americans into a more energetic part now. They will. There will continue to be ideological disputes, and that's fine. That's what the democracy is all about. But I think we're in for a pretty feisty time. I hope it doesn't get too feisty to the point of violence, but it's going to be feisty.
- [41:36]
Richard Vigory
Well, Roger, go a little bit deeper on this if you would, because maybe this is a little more uniquely American, I don't know. But things happen Social change, to use your expression, happens from the bottom up when people feel empowered to act. You think about the civil rights movement, you think about the environmental movement, the anti war movement, you think about the Tea Party movement. Moveon.org all these movements generally knock the politicians off their feet. They don't see it coming necessarily. You guys are, by the way, leading indicators because you're in touch with the people directly. You see it coming before others come, others see it. Tell us a little bit about that. Is it your sense that that change happens in that way and that things like direct mail or podcasts or whatever they may be are merely the vehicles to let democracies be democracies?
- [42:37]
Roger Craver
Yes. I mean, the only way change happens in a democracy is from the people itself. The institutions won't change. There's a built in, self protective nature of, of institutions. I mean, if there weren't congressional elections, we would have a politburo. As a matter of fact, the age of the politburo is about the same age as Congress. But that aside, as the people get stirred up, they will make change. And you can see it out there now, whether it's Mandami in New York or other young people, we're in for not only a citizen reawakening, we're also in for a generational reawakening or awakening. I mean, the younger generation is coming up. The Generation in their 40s is now moving to ascend to the top political leadership. And so there's going to be a lot of turmoil and a lot of changes. And this is where having the skill to communicate with those people who want to belong to something that will work on something specific becomes very, very important. And it's exactly what Richard said. Those letters that he sent out before Reagan's election got people into, whether it was into gun rights or whether it was into pro life or whatever it was. There was a cadre of people who were skilled in getting together, raising hell and raising their voices that were standing by when the right candidate came along in 1980. That's what's happening now. It's like a mushroom grows, it's starting to rise and it will become real. I have no idea what it's going to look like because no one ever knows. I mean, I think one of the things I Learned in the 40 years I worked in Washington and unfortunately escaped since then, is that in Washington you can be damn sure that nobody knows. That's one thing I'm absolutely certain of.
- [44:48]
Richard Vigory
Well said. Well, Richard, I mean, I think both of you all at times have been called any establishment or contrarian, maybe even revolutionary. But I think, and again, I think this is the qualities that are still undervalued in terms of what you'll have done. You both have given megaphones to the people. Where, where do you see the country today? And, and sort of where is the, where is that angst? Where is that leadership? Where's that voice? What's, what's going on, Richard?
- [45:17]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I Roger talked about feisty times. We're in feisty times. I think it's beyond that, quite frankly. I think we're a civil war in the country, a spiritual civil war. I think that we're going to look back in relatively few years and think that these are the good old days. So we have two, two sides that really, you know, have strongly different ideological views that were to go forward. And I think in terms of the intensity, the heat in the country, we ain't seen nothing yet. It just wrecks building up now. The almost everything that I can think of that has been a positive anything that's been good in this country has not come from the politicians. It's come from the grassroots. It's the people at the grassroots level that start, whether it's on the left, environmental groups, the green movement, the low taxes, pro life, you know, so all of these come bubbling up from the, from the people at the grassroots. It didn't come from the, from the politicians. And also, as I've said earlier, and I think Roger has alluded to this too, that just the institutions out there don't have the confidence of the people that they used to. People just don't trust these institutions and they just, they're looking for new leadership. There's lack of leadership, I think, on the left and the right these days. And so we're, we're, we're in a, in a in between period right now. And it could go many, many different ways. But Churchill, Winston Churchill had a very favorite, favorite prime minister who lived in the 1840s, whose name I can never remember in history, has pretty much lost his name. But, but Churchill thought he was a great prime minister. He said he had the misfortune of living in uninteresting times. We do not live in uninteresting times.
- [47:27]
Richard Vigory
So that's right. Well, I think that's the Chinese proverb is, I think, is that it may you live in interesting times. Well, let's, I want to wrap this up. I have two big, important closing going, big questions, but I think everyone listening is pretty fascinated to know an answer to a question they want to ask, and that is, how did you two become friends? I mean, you cannot be more polar opposite in your beliefs. We haven't even gotten into that. We. Very easily. I could have played boxing referee, and you all could have gone at it on any particular issue. But you all. Is it because literally there's no overlap in your. In your business sector, or is it because you're sort of leading parallel lives? How did you become friends?
- [48:14]
Roger Craver
Well, I let Richard explain what drove him.
- [48:18]
Kevin Gentry
But the two.
- [48:19]
Roger Craver
One, superficially. One night I came back to my office and found a note on my desk from Richard saying, stopped by. Clearly, your security of you liberals is great. But that led to our spending time together. And. And one of the reasons I believe that I don't want to go as far as the Civil War, one, because I don't believe it. But two, because I grew up in Gettysburg and I have very vivid memories. I grew up in a Civil War house that still had blood stains on the floor because it was a hospital and had a little cubby hole between the walls and the foundation where the Union soldiers wounded on one side and the Confederates on the other. And I remember in school seeing the pictures of the line being thrown on the dead bodies of the dead horses. So I don't want to see that. But the reason I pursued my friendship with Richard was because, one, we could talk. We seldom agreed, but we could talk. We could share ideas professionally. And I always admired and wanted to tap into that his energy for pursuing the trade, to be a better craftsperson, to be a better expert, and never quit doing that. And I felt the same way. And I found someone who convinced me that, no, I'm not nuts. At least there's two of us who are nuts. And that was the basis of our friendship.
- [49:58]
Richard Vigory
That's terrific. By the way, of course, I went to Roger. You and I went to Richard 90th birthday party a couple years ago. And. And they were. We were seated beside each other and got to spend time talking. And I think it was very nice that you came to that celebration. But I couldn't agree with you more about Richard's energy. He's a tremendous inspiration to us all. Okay, now, Richard, it's your turn. How did you become, in your view, friends with Roger Craver?
- [50:26]
Kevin Gentry
I like Roger. I would love to know the very beginning. You know, it's been lost in my, you know, my memory there. But, you know, I was told, by.
- [50:35]
Richard Vigory
The way, that both of you all today took data cards late at night to get Them processed and went by computer time and that maybe you both kind of bumped into each other, kept seeing each other after 10 o' clock at night maybe in Roslyn, Virginia or something. Is that true or my. Is that a bad number?
- [50:50]
Roger Craver
It was the Japanese Steakhouse. It was Roslyn and there was a place called the Japanese Steakhouse. Our offices were above that up on the, up the high rise building by USA Today. And Richard apparently went to dinner there one night and decided to come up and check out what the other side was doing and found the doors of course, wide open. And you know, no, I, I remember.
- [51:16]
Kevin Gentry
Roger invited me to come by and spend some time with his team one afternoon, one evening and talk marketing and all that. And also, you know, quite frankly, you know, we were both pioneers, we both pioneered on the left and the right marketing, etc. And we were both professionals. I think we both admire, you know, professionalism and there was a certain attraction there because we were doing something no one else was doing out there. I remember Roger and I had, and our wives, we had a wonderful evening at the end at Little Washington in Washington, Virginia, many years ago. And so, you know, the truth is Roger's just a darn nice guy and you can't help but like Roger Kremer. And you were talking about his agitator. And I would also add your public tips that you put up, Kevin, every Saturday morning. Your blog is outstanding. So the two of you, if you're not reading and memorizing what that Kevin and Roger are talking about, you're missing something. So.
- [52:18]
Richard Vigory
Well, you're very, very nice. All right, so here are the two wrapped up questions that I like. And I think in this case they're going big questions, but they're less to do necessarily about politics or direct mail or direct response, but really living a life of meaning and purpose and having that contribution mindset of trying to just do good for others as you all both are trying to do. And by the way, you've also united from time to time on efforts related to free speech.
- [52:45]
Roger Craver
Yeah.
- [52:46]
Richard Vigory
When there have been attacks by government or big interest to restrict free speech, you ought to both united in that cause and good for you for, for doing that. So first question is considering a younger version of yourself. So Richard, you got to think back like say 70 years when you were in your, your 20s. What knowing what you now know today, what would you tell a younger version of yourself to do any differently?
- [53:12]
Kevin Gentry
The actually I can go back a lot more further than 70 years. I'm a, I'm a 12, 13 years old playing cops and robbers outside of Houston, Texas, where I was born and raised. And I don't tell anybody. I'm not shooting robbers, I'm shooting combies. And so then and now, you know, I'm just consumed with saving Western civilization. I tell my friends it didn't happen today, but I promise you tomorrow before the sun sets, I will save Western civilization. KEVIN that question you ask is one that I think about frequently, that I wish I had done this, I wish I had done that, and I wish I had a written goal for my life. I used to host dinners for years and years at my home every Wednesday evening with Congress Congressman Newt Gingrich, Vin Weber, Bob Walker, about seven, eight of them and Paul Wyrick and Ed Fuller, others, 15 of us. And we would have a problem during the night how you pass legislation, defeat this person or whatever. Gingrich would always go to the black and write five words on there, four categories, vision, goal, strategy and tactics, slash projects. Thirty minutes later, we saw a clear path forward. I wish I had and I do that now for any important meeting, trip or whatever. So I just urge young people for their lives, you know, write down your plan. Bill Clinton, when he's 16 years old, is telling people, I'm going to be president United States. Okay. Hillary Rodham in college, she introduces him. Meet Bill Clinton, my boyfriend. He's going to be president United States. So have a goal for your life, share it with others, write it down. It's permissible to change as you go along, but start with the plan and then study, study, read, read. I just can't urge you enough to really, whatever you path you choose in life, become the very best at it. And almost always giants have come before you. As you said Sir Isaac Newton, you stand on the shoulders of others. And I think that young people these days don't study enough. Too many people feel that they learn their profession by their gut, their seat of their pants. And none of us would go to a doctor who learned surgery by the seat of his pants or so anyway. Study, study, learn, learn. Get mentors. Makes all the difference in the world to have somebody who's came before, accomplished something and can guide you through the mistakes that he made. Or she.
- [55:50]
Richard Vigory
Well, thank you for being a lifelong learner. And that has a lot more meaning considering your dedication to that particular objective. And thank you for that terrific attitude. So, Roger, how about you? A younger version of yourself. I'm surprised you didn't say that you wished you would prospect more heavily in Those early days so that there would be more to work from today. I'm kidding. But Roger, go ahead.
- [56:12]
Roger Craver
There are two things that, when I look back at the five year old me, I was standing at the front of the Adams County Hospital with my mother and brother every Saturday morning from then until I went away to college, boycotting the hospital because they wouldn't accept migrant farm workers. So Richard was shooting commies. I was working on, on migrants. If there, if there is anything that I would have done different, only, only because it, it would have made.
- [56:44]
Kevin Gentry
More.
- [56:44]
Roger Craver
Made more profitable to invest more money in the movement, I, I would have have had closer control of the mailing list than I did. I, I never would, I never would have an ownership interest in lists or, or other things. And I think that probably was a mistake. Not, not out of greed, but out of, out of the ability to control data and to use it more. More. And like Richard, it's really important that you try to be, no matter what you're going to be. You know, Gardner had a great thing, a great saying that a society who puts down plumbers because it's a lowly skill but venerates mediocre academicians and philosophers is a poor society. Neither it's pipes nor its philosophy will hold water. And that is so true. We need to develop, we got to get out of this thing of kind of an amiable mediocrity where we kind of just let things go for the sake of letting things go. We have to demand excellence of each other. We have to demand excellence in our profession. Richard and I speak to that when it comes to fundraising. But everybody, every individual should try to be the best they can possibly be, because that's how we get into the future.
- [58:09]
Richard Vigory
Well, well said. All right, so here's the wrap up question and it's somewhat similar, but this is the real going big to anyone listening around the world, and I know that they do from around the world. I hear this all the time. What advice would you give to someone today to think about how they could act for their beliefs? I mean, you've already touched on so many good things. Lifelong learning, find a mentor. But, but what, what encouragement would you give to somebody today to do as perhaps you have? And you've done a lot of good. I may disagree sometimes both of you on some of your particular causes, but you've done an awful lot of good to give voice to so many millions of people. Who wants to go first in this wrap up, Richard?
- [58:55]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, beauty. Yeah, yeah.
- [58:59]
Richard Vigory
You know, before beauty, I got that Go, go ahead, Richard.
- [59:02]
Kevin Gentry
One of the things that, that we at the American Target Advertising look for here when we're interviewing people to, to work for the company here, you know, I can teach them a lot. I can teach them direct mail. I can teach them this and that type of thing. One thing I can't teach them energy. Do you bring energy? Do you bring passion, commitment to it? And, and you just see that so seldom out there these days. And different military leaders have talked about boldness, always boldness, Boldness, boldness. So as I said earlier, the opportunities that Roger and I had many years ago is still there. They look different, they're shaped different, they need different solutions, different approaches going forward, but the opportunity is there for leadership. But you just don't wait for somebody to come and ask you and take, you know, get out of your comfort zone. It's, it's a rare day, a rare day that I don't get out of my comfort zone once or twice or more times. And so be bold. Have a plan for your life. Put energy out there and study, study, read, read. And you'd be surprised. Maybe you can save Western civilization. It's all right.
- [60:24]
Richard Vigory
Well, Richard, I mean, Roger, we're going to give you the final word, but in direct mail parlance, we'll give you the postscript. So go ahead, you close this out.
- [60:32]
Roger Craver
Okay. Well, going big in 2025 to me doesn't mean blowing up the system. It means showing up, showing up persistently, showing up energetically, and showing up with integrity.
- [60:47]
Richard Vigory
Wow. Well, Roger Craver, what a treat to be with you, ladies and gentlemen. Retention, fundraising, the agitator blog. Google it, check it out. We'll have it in the, in the show notes as well. Richard Vigory has his great go big. You can find him out and everywhere. Y both of you keep doing this. Let's, let's make a point on the calendar now. Let's do another podcast just like this in 20 years.
- [61:10]
Roger Craver
Absolutely. And I'm going to make it because I have Richard's health book. Everyone should get it. How Conservatives can Outlive liberals.
- [61:17]
Richard Vigory
Yes. How Conservatives Can Outlive Liberals. I've been eating my dark skinned fruit every morning, Richard. Raspberries, blueberries, strawberries. Thank you.
- [61:26]
Kevin Gentry
I want everybody to have my role model, Moses. Deuteronomy 34, verse 7. And Moses lived to be 120 and his eye was not dim nor his vital forces abated. And I tell my liberal friends, like Roger, look out at 91. Vigory is just getting started.
- [61:46]
Richard Vigory
All right, It's a great pleasure to have you all today on the Going Big Podcast and thank you for all the encouragement and inspiration that both of you offer.
- [61:55]
Roger Craver
Thank you very much. Kevin Richard Take care.
- [61:58]
Kevin Gentry
Thank you.
- [61:59]
Richard Vigory
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep Going Big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.