Podcast Summary: Going Big! with Kevin Gentry

Episode: Going Big with Aditi Goel and David Carroll: Taking On America’s Hidden Justice Crisis
Date: February 2, 2026
Host: Kevin Gentry
Guests: David Carroll (Founder and President, Sixth Amendment Center), Aditi Goyal (Executive Director, Sixth Amendment Center)

Episode Overview

This episode of "Going Big!" tackles the United States' "hidden justice crisis": the widespread denial of adequate legal counsel to millions of Americans, a problem rooted not in malice but in deep structural and institutional flaws. Host Kevin Gentry speaks with David Carroll and Aditi Goyal of the Sixth Amendment Center, an organization committed to ensuring that the constitutional right to counsel, guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, is upheld nationwide. Through personal stories, critical insights, and discussion of their nationally recognized, nonpartisan approach to reform, Carroll and Goyal unpack why so many Americans never truly receive their day in court—and what’s being done to fix it.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding the Sixth Amendment and the Crisis

• Definition & Awareness:
  • The Sixth Amendment guarantees criminal defendants key rights, most famously, “if you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you” (03:45).
  • Pop culture, such as TV police dramas, often misrepresents the extent to which this right is delivered in reality.
• The Realities on the Ground:
  • Millions of Americans in both urban and rural settings are denied proper legal representation due to lack of resources, overworked public defenders, and systemic loopholes (05:03–10:23).
  • Many judges and prosecutors in rural areas are not even trained lawyers, amplifying the potential for miscarriage of justice (05:03–10:23).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 06:52):
    “In much of the country, you don’t need to be a lawyer to be a judge and take away a person’s liberty. In fact, in 22 states, there are non-lawyer judges that have the authority to [do so]. That’s why you need even more guardrails, why a lawyer is needed in the courtroom to protect the rights of the defendant.”

2. Personal "Aha" Moments and Motivations

• David Carroll’s Origin Story:
  • Witnessed the sentencing of a man to jail without an attorney, for stealing firewood to keep his family warm, due to poverty.
  • Realized the scale of unnoticed legal violations and structural deficits in rural courts (05:03–10:23).
• Aditi Goyal’s Motivation:
  • First exposure as a college intern—an 8-year-old in handcuffs, detained overnight for a trivial offense (11:14–17:52).
  • Witnessed the power and importance of a public defender as the constitutional check on government power.
  • Quote (Aditi Goyal, 13:39):
    “To me, this was the most powerful person in the courtroom... and I did not understand who gave this public defender the right... to carve out time and space to make an argument on behalf of this child... That’s just absolutely incredible.”

3. Misconceptions about the Right to Counsel

• Pop Culture vs. Reality:
  • The widely believed notion that “if you can’t afford a lawyer, one will be given to you” isn’t truly realized in many areas (19:16–21:36).
  • Barriers include application fees for public defense, long waits for appointment, encouragement to negotiate with prosecutors before meeting counsel, and overwhelmed defenders.
  • Quote (Aditi Goyal, 19:24):
    “People think it’s a constitutional right, so you have it, but actually there’s a lot that needs to get done to make sure you have it.”

4. The Scale and Impact of the Problem

• Staggering Numbers:
  • About 80% of criminal cases are brought in state and local courts; about 80% of defendants can’t afford their own lawyer (28:58–30:10).
  • Systemic underfunding, especially in rural or resource-poor counties, leads to basic rights being denied.
  • Unrepresented or poorly represented defendants often face not only jail but loss of housing, job licenses, and even, for immigrants, deportation (33:29–36:04).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 34:08):
    “There are lots of collateral consequences from a conviction... when you add it up, it’s a massive cost to government across this country, when you’re probably not making public safety that much better for a lot of these people.”

5. The Sixth Amendment Center’s Approach: The “Going Big” Solution

• Nonpartisan, Invitation-Only, State-Centered Model:
  • The Center only works where they’re invited, maintains a nonpartisan approach, and does not litigate or lobby, focusing instead on collaborative, expert-driven reform (37:31–39:56).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 38:07):
    “We wanted to set up an organization that could talk to whatever party was in power... this is truly an American right that we all should get behind.”
• Practical, Tailored Change:
  • The Center partners with local leaders, conducting comprehensive studies, convening representative task forces (judges, legislators, attorneys, prosecutors), and guiding states to build durable, locally owned public defense infrastructure (42:21–46:52).
  • Example: In South Dakota, helped create a statewide oversight entity and state appellate defender office for the first time, working step-by-step with all three branches of state government.
  • Quote (Aditi Goyal, 42:59):
    “When you bring the Sixth Amendment Center and the state together, that’s really where the magic happens, because what we end up doing is working with the state to learn the problem together.”

6. The Nature of Cultural and Institutional Barriers

• Lack of Malice, Prevalence of Cultural Problems:
  • The problem largely stems from outdated or uninformed systems, not ill intent; even caring judges and officials are constrained by culture, training, or lack of resources (22:22–27:49).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 24:55):
    “A lot of it is just simply the culture that has grown over time. [Most want] to do good but make bad decisions because of the way the system is built.”
• The Need for Trust-Building and Leadership:
  • Real reform happens only when states want it and lead it themselves, with sustained, cross-branch commitment (46:31–47:06).

7. Advice for “Going Big” in Social Change and Justice

• Practical Tips for Aspiring Change-Makers:

  • Start before you think you’re ready; “take that first step” and trust the process (50:13–52:29).
  • Remain humble, curious, and always learning (52:42–53:53).
  • Find mentors, keep mission focus as your “North Star,” and don’t personalize challenges—keep focused on the cause (55:11–57:05).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 51:11):
    “You have a nugget of an idea. Trust yourself, take that first step... You can overthink this. I was 15, 16 years doing this before I started the Sixth Amendment Center.”
  • Quote (Aditi Goyal, 54:07):
    “It does not matter how far you are into your career, just continually remain curious... and keep the mission at heart.”

• On Building Partnerships Across Divides:

  • Solution-making in justice requires genuine engagement and speaking with all sides, not “writing people off” (57:10–59:53).
  • Quote (David Carroll, 57:10):
    “Most people I encounter, whether sheriffs, legislators, or judges, got into government for the right reasons. Now, we may have disagreements about how to make that happen, but it’s really important to remember that.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps):

• David Carroll on rural court injustices:
  “In much of the country, you don’t need to be a lawyer to be a judge and take away a person’s liberty. In fact, in 22 states, there are non-lawyer judges...” (06:52)

• Aditi Goyal’s realization:
  “This was the most powerful person in the courtroom. And I did not understand who gave this public defender the right... to make an argument on behalf of this child...” (13:39)

• Debunking the guarantee:
  “People think it’s a constitutional right, so you have it, but actually there’s a lot that needs to get done to make sure you have it.” (19:24)

• On systemic versus personal causes:
  “A lot of it is just simply the culture that has grown over time.” (24:55)

• On going big and building the organization:
  “You have a nugget of an idea. Trust yourself, take that first step. You can overthink this.” (51:11)

• On trust and bridging divides:
  “Most people I encounter... got into government for the right reasons... don’t write people off.” (57:10)

Important Timestamps

• 03:45 – What the Sixth Amendment actually guarantees.
• 05:03 – David Carroll’s “aha moment” in rural Montana court.
• 11:14 – Aditi Goyal’s first exposure to the system, seeing an 8-year-old in handcuffs.
• 19:16 – Common misconceptions about public defense guarantees.
• 22:22 – Another courtroom story; how culture, not malice, leads to bad outcomes.
• 28:58 – The magnitude of the problem: 80% stat.
• 33:29 – The ripple effect: consequences beyond jail.
• 37:31 – The Center’s approach: nonpartisan, collaborative, state-by-state.
• 42:21 – Example: South Dakota’s comprehensive reform and partnership.
• 50:13 – Advice to change-makers: just begin, don’t wait for perfect readiness.
• 54:07 – Remaining curious, mission-focused, and service-oriented.
• 57:10 – The importance of dialogue and trust in government reform.

Summary Takeaways

This episode reveals a critical, underappreciated gap in America’s criminal justice system and highlights the power of nonpartisan, quietly persistent leadership. Carroll and Goyal model a strategic, collaborative approach to large-scale reform—one built on trust, expertise, humility, and dedication to justice. Their advice for “going big” is practical yet profound: understand your cause deeply; trust yourself enough to begin; remain humble, mission-focused, and curious; and recognize the humanity and potential for good in those you aim to change.

For more information, visit:

• Sixth Amendment Center

Host closing message:
“As we celebrate America’s 250th, let’s double down on the intent that the founders had... and continue to speak out in favor of the same intentions to ensure everyone enjoys the promises of the American dream.” (59:53)