← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
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- [00:01]
Doug DeVos
You know, we have the ability to dream. We have the ability to see things that aren't existing yet and figure out how to help make them exist, how to put them in place again in our material sense, in the world that where we live, there's so many things that we can do. And so my encouragement is to everybody to go big in, you know, go back to unlimited potential, believing in people and. And believing in yourself and with that idea that, you know, that world creates so much opportunity if we're just willing to do something about it.
- [00:42]
Kevin Gentry
Hi there. I'm Kevin Gentry, and welcome to the Going Big podcast, where we'll explore some of the strategies that can help you transform your effectiveness by 10 x ing your fundraising. Each week, we'll sit down with some of the most influential business leaders, single CEOs, and nonprofit visionaries to talk about leadership, the power of giving, and how you can make a real impact. If you want to make a transformational change to the cause you're working on, this is the place for that conversation. Also, take a Look at our website, 10xStrategies.com that's T E N X strategies.com for lots of free marketing and fundraising resources. And be sure to sign up for the free weekly fundraising tips. Now let's dive in.
- [01:30]
Interviewer
Well, what a pleasure to be with one of America's top business leaders, one of the most generous philanthropists, Doug and his wife Maria. The DeVos family have been very generous in so many ways, and Doug is something of a bit of a community organizer, too. And so we got a lot of stuff to talk about. And, Doug, a lot of this is based on how you think about believing in people. And you've got your Believe podcast. You're inspired in part by your dad's book, Believe. If it's okay, I'd like to go through some of the principles that have really guided your family over the years, as I understand it, because you all have really gone big. This is the Going Big podcast, and you have gone big based on these principles, as I understand it.
- [02:16]
Doug DeVos
Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll go anywhere you want to go, Kevin, because it's just so fun to have this chance to do this with you and to. To be with you, as you said about the years that we've known each other and the experiences that we've had together. It's really fun to talk about Going Big and how we build on all these ideas and these principles that have been part of our lives and that we've shared and that we've, you know, many things that we've worked on together.
- [02:40]
Interviewer
Well, awesome. You're good to do this. Well, thank you. Well, this is going to be fun, I think. Absolutely. And you, you really, you and your family epitomize and my judgment, going big and have inspired me. So right out of the box, how do you think about people's potential, any person's potential? I mean, that is sort of the core of believing in people. But how do you think about our mind, yours, anyone's potential to do something with their life?
- [03:06]
Doug DeVos
Yeah, sure. Well, you know, to unpack some of these things as we talk about these principles. I'm going to go back to probably mostly Amway stories, if you don't mind, and talk about, you know, talk about the business that I grew up in and that I was part of, for, for virtually all my career and. Well, I guess I'm still part of it. I guess you never really leave. Right. So. So it, it really kind of comes down to believing in people and believing in potential. One of the things that, that my dad and, and his business partner, Jay Van and as co founders of Amway, that they talked about all the time, is that when you would give somebody an opportunity, they believe people would do something with it. And that just the expression of giving them an opportunity. They believed in the potential and the talents and the skills and the determination of the individual. And they never wavered on that. They were always believing that they spent all their time, and we've spent all of our time in the Amway business finding people from all walks of life say, you can do it. We believe in you. And, and that the performance of people that you never would have expected, that you would have thought, oh, that, you know, you're in a meeting and you see somebody and go, well, this person over here, I bet they're going to be really successful. They have this, you know, educational background. They have this sort of business background, and I bet they're going to be great. And maybe they were great in those areas, but they weren't very good at Amway. And then you'd find somebody else who maybe didn't, you know, have the same sort of background or the same sort of experience. But, boy, they had something inside of them and they were ready to learn and they were going to work hard. And they have turned into some of the greatest leaders we've ever seen in our business. And so you always have to look at the individual and say, somewhere in there is incredible potential. And I don't know what it's going to be to unlock it. And there's a lot of great people who joined Amway who weren't successful, who are still great people outside of our business. Right? Absolutely. They've done great things. But you believe that in everybody. And I believe it so strongly because that's been my experience, where you see people from different walks of life and you see what they do and you see how they work and you see what they create and you see how they add value, and you see all the different ways in which people can do that, with different personality types, different skill sets, different objectives. And it just. It solidifies this belief in the potential of all people to achieve great things and to really have impact for their. For their own futures and their own life and for the people around them as well. So that's where it kind of all comes back to.
- [06:04]
Interviewer
Well, terrific. Well, I want to understand also what you think can sometimes hold people back. But to your point, I remember either you've told the story or your dad told the story, or maybe you both told the story.
- [06:15]
Doug DeVos
Well, if he told it, I probably just repeated it.
- [06:17]
Interviewer
Well, the time I think he was going to maybe Malaysia and a meeting with the Prime Minister there. And, you know, we can get caught up in thinking like, well, I'm just not smart enough, or I don't have the credentials or I don't have what's necessary. We don't need natural resources in a country, so to speak. It's a lot of times, it's just we have this possibility, this opportunity. Tell us the story.
- [06:42]
Doug DeVos
Sure, sure. So the, you know, this was many years ago. The Amway business had just started in Malaysia. This is in the late 1970s. And we had a good start. Business was going well. We were there. I happened to. I wasn't in this meeting with the Prime Minister, but I happened to be there for these, for the Amway meetings. And the conversation was just very cordial, talking about business. And the Prime Minister relayed to my father that it was a tough time economically for Malaysia, that the price of copper, tin and oil, which were Malaysia's greatest natural resources, was depressed on the global market, and that was impacting their economy. And they talked about that a little bit. And then he turned the subject, said, but your business is growing. You're going to have thousands of people at this meeting tonight. The business has been growing wonderfully. Well, you're investing in our country. He goes, well, what's the secret? And that's when he said, well, Mr. Prime Minister, you may believe your greatest natural resources in Malaysia are copper, tin and Oil. But in Amway, we believe your greatest natural resources are the people of Malaysia. And in Amway, we invest in people. And that was just the. The fundamental elements, again, of investing in people and believing in people and. And finding people. And from that business those early days, so many people and their families are still with Amway today. They've built big businesses. They've built, you know, incomes for themselves and for others that have stood the test of time and are continuing to. Many of them continue to be active or their families or their descendants are being active.
- [08:24]
Interviewer
Wow. Well, you all have affected hundreds of millions of people around the globe. I know that. I want to dig into more about Amway, but more let's on people as well. What do you think holds us back from doing more? I know you sometimes said, well, you can't win the race unless you get in the race. But what holds us back?
- [08:45]
Doug DeVos
You know, it can be a variety of things, and, you know, a lot of them are real. You know, there are real barriers that we face in life. You know, somebody puts a barrier in front of us, whether it's. It is an education barrier or maybe it's more personal. It's a family barrier where you had an issue, you know, with your parents or, you know, or something that's happened in your life, or you have a genuine health issue. There's a lot of. There's a lot of genuine things that will hold someone back from achieving their potential. And the tough part is it feels like sometimes when there are those real barriers, people get stuck and they kind of. Every time they look, they see that barrier. And what we've always tried to do is say, well, okay, there's a barrier. I get it. It's real. How do I get around it? How do I get over it? How do I get under it? How do I do something different? How do I partner with somebody to learn that skill or to overcome that barrier, whatever that may be? And so sometimes it's persistence, it's determination. It's this idea that barriers are real. They're everywhere. And there's a lot of things to hold people back, but it's the fact that you don't let the barrier hold you back the whole time or keep seeing it right in front of your face, change your perspective, move around, do something different. And again, you'll find Kevin that. And I think you know already from knowing me, all I do is tell Dad's stories about him because they proved to be so good.
- [10:21]
Interviewer
Well, they are pretty good stories.
- [10:22]
Doug DeVos
He's learned a lot from you, he's done pretty well. But he was speaking at a college graduation, and it was a tough economic time, and a lot of the people were talking about how tough the economics were, and it'd be hard for your graduates to find a job and be careful and this and that, and. And then it was his turn to speak. He said, don't listen to him. Don't listen to any of those people. Yeah, it's a tough time, but it's the only time you have. So figure it out. You have this education, you have these opportunities. Figure it out. You're going to be an entrepreneur. Maybe don't get a job, maybe start a business, maybe do something else. But this is the only time you have. You have this amazing education. Go do something. You have this determination that you've. That you're achieving something. You've graduated, Move forward and try to encourage people in that sort of way. And I think what holds people back is they just get stuck. And that's the toughest thing. And I sympathize with people when they're in that place, because I get it, there are barriers. We've all been stuck to a certain extent, but we don't have to stay there. That's the biggest thing is you don't have to stay there if you're stuck. Maybe you take a few steps back, you regroup, you look at things different, you put it together in a different way and find a different path and try something new, see if that works. And so while those barriers can be real, our experience has always been those barriers can be overcome and you can find ways to. To achieve success, to add value to your family, to your community, regardless of the barrier.
- [12:03]
Interviewer
All right, so if the first principle as part of believe is your unlimited potential.
- [12:09]
Doug DeVos
Unlimited potential. Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:11]
Interviewer
I want to obviously keep going to number two, start talking about accountability and freedom. But before that, because you touched on something your dad and his longtime friend from childhood, Jay Van Andel, determined at an early age they wanted to go into business together. But my understanding is the first business was not Amway. They did some crazy things that I don't know. They failed or succeeded. But tell us a little bit about some of their first ventures, because it goes right along with unlimited potential in my judge.
- [12:41]
Doug DeVos
Absolutely. So they. They, you know, struck up this relationship in high school, buddies in high school and always talked about getting in business together. And that was a couple things behind that. Jay's father was in business for himself, and my dad's father had a difficult relationship with his employer. Would always say to my dad, get in business for yourself. And so the two of them always talked about it, and the timing was such. Right after high school, both of them went to serve in World War II. And. But they wrote letters back and forth to each other. Someday this war is going to end. Someday we're going to, you know, we're going to be able to get in business together. Someday we're going to come back home. So, you know, and they would exchange these letters throughout their time in the service. And. And they got back and actually, Jay returned a bit earlier than my dad did and. And had a business opportunity. I can't remember what it was, but it, you know, needed some money. And Jay said, you know, we're 50. 50. We're partners, so I think we should do this. And I'll get it set up so when you get back, we'll be able to, you know, do this. And. And I often thought that Jay could have just done that on his own. We talked about the principles of a friend, you know, and of him. He said, no. We always said, we're going to do something together. So I'm not going to start something on my own just because I'm back earlier. We're going to do it together. So eventually, their first real business was a flight school. They taught people how to fly. And the most interesting part about that was that neither one of them knew how to fly.
- [14:20]
Interviewer
No way.
- [14:20]
Doug DeVos
And so that's. That's. Why is. The fun part of the story is, is, you know, aviation coming out of the war was the way to go. They were, you know, they both were kind of watching it, and so they got in, but they didn't know how to fly. So. But they thought that'd be a great business to get into. So. So they. They started a flight school. They hired pilots.
- [14:43]
Interviewer
Okay?
- [14:43]
Doug DeVos
They went out and got customers, and, you know, that was their deal. They were doing the marketing and sales and the business side, they hired the pilots. Because if you're a pilot teaching people how to fly, most your time's in a plane with one person. You can't get the next customer. And so they went out and got customers. They dragged airplanes where they took the wings off, and they would, you know, tow the airplane through the downtown streets of Grand Rapids advertising, you know, to go flying. There's a great. Some great photos of it. And they would, you know, try to bring people in. That was what they did. While the pilots that they had hired were teaching the students how to fly, the other aspect is the Airport in the north part of Grand Rapids wasn't complete by the time they opened. And so, but it was right next to the Grand River. So their first pilots, they bought floats for the plane, put a dock down to the river, and the first pilots, they trained in the World War Service, which was the. The name of it, learned to fly off the. Off the river, were trained on water. And that went to. They said, well, we can fly it. They can fly at night, they can fly in the daytime, but they needed to work at night. And I remember my dad said the next, you know, it's not the first 40 hours a week that you work, it's the next 40 that you work to get ahead, you know. And so at night, they started to drive in restaurant. Neither one of them knew how to cook. And my dad would tell you that everyone should get in the restaurant business once. It's hard because everyone wants to eat at the same time. If they could just spread it out throughout the whole evening, it would be great. But they, they had a riverside drive in restaurant. So they did the flight school in the daytime, they did that at night, and then they did a few other things until. Until they kind of.
- [16:27]
Interviewer
Now I understand why principle number one is unlimited potential. Okay, all right, well, and you can.
- [16:31]
Doug DeVos
See barriers, and you just find your way around it. Airport wasn't done. Oh, we'll fly off the river.
- [16:37]
Interviewer
Wow. Okay, so. And by the way, not only is Amway such a phenomenal business success story, and, you know, if either Rich DeVos or Jay Van Andel had been the founder, that would be extraordinary, but it's also one of the models for business partnership. It really is. And that. That in and of itself could be a whole new podcast episode. Absolutely.
- [16:57]
Doug DeVos
Absolutely.
- [16:58]
Interviewer
Well, what, what is, what do you mean by accountability with respect to freedom and how this fits in?
- [17:04]
Doug DeVos
Well, the idea of accountability really comes through the fact that you're given a set of gifts and talents. We believe we're created by God, and we have these gifts and these talents and opportunities in our lives to do something with them, and we need to be held accountable. To do that in the most basic thing is just being a person of your word. If you say you're going to do something, do it. If you say you're not going to do something, don't do it. And, and just be honest with people and be honest with yourself. You know, there's, there's so many, you know, so many stories, and we, okay, we've all been there, so I need to lose 10 pounds. I'm going to go do this, and we fail and, and there's a bit of that in life, but I think we want to have ourselves to a higher level of say, you know, if I'm going to set a goal, I'm going to work to really achieve it. I'm going to do something about it, and, and I'm going to hold myself accountable to do the things necessary to achieve that goal. And that's the, the element especially. So it's one thing to do it for yourself. It's another thing when you're on a team, you know, any sport, you know, a teammate is looking at you, okay, are you going to, you're going to catch the ball, I'm going to throw the ball, you're going to tackle the person, you're going to hit the ball, Whatever the, whatever the sport may be. You have illustrations. Well, that's your job, my job. But we're working together to make it happen. And, and, and you're going to always maximize your capability when you're working with other people who can round out your edges, who can cover your blind spots, who can, you know, add value to things that you may not see or that you may not know. And so those. I think the accountability is really to be a person of your word and to live your life accordingly. And I think if you take the whole concept of believe, it's okay. That's what I believe. It's easy to talk about it. Then how do you do it? Yeah, behavior has to follow belief. And so I think that's where the accountability piece comes in.
- [19:20]
Interviewer
Gotcha. So in order for freedom to work, you have to have accountability.
- [19:24]
Doug DeVos
Well, you have to understand the principles and you have to work for it. And so for if freedom's going to work, you got to say, okay, I got to make sure that freedom is then a better method than something else. So I need to be more productive, I need to be more creative. I need to be, you know, paying attention to these sorts of things. I need to be educated about it and turn it into all that it can be. But I can't take it for granted. And I can't just assume that it's just that everyone's going to continue to act in the way that was supposed to be done in the history books. You got to assume somewhere along the way that voters need to vote to preserve the freedom, that fight fighters need to fight to preserve the freedom, that all of us have a role to play to preserve the freedom. If we're talking about the USA that we all have a role to play to make the economy work and other elements. And years ago, I had a chance with a local economic club here in Grand Rapids to interview Madeleine Albright and Colin Powell for our annual dinner. And, you know, at that time, as in any time, there's always world issues going on. And they talked a lot about the idea of diplomacy through the economic strength of our country, not just the military strength of our country. And so all these elements go into protecting freedom. It's not just one element. It's the idea of being a citizen and your responsibility as a citizen, as a neighbor, and as a productive member of society, that you're adding value to society. You're going to work every day, you're making something happen, you're starting a new business. Whatever that talent that you may have, that you're contributing it, that we're part of a contribution society, we're accountable to do that. And when we do all these things and we understand how they work together, we preserve, not only preserve and protect our freedom, but build a stronger foundation so that it can be even better for more people going forward.
- [21:46]
Interviewer
Well, freedom is such a big word, and it can be misused, abused, taken for granted. But you'll tend to talk about free enterprise. What is. In fact, I kind of think sometimes when I hear American free enterprise, I think, you know, Amway and I think the DeVos family. What is. What is free enterprise? And what does that mean?
- [22:09]
Doug DeVos
Well, it. It. It starts to, you know, for us again, it dives into the, you know, some of the elements behind the business success, the productivity of any. Of a nation, of a business, of a system, of an economic system, and that the productivity of any system happens when the decisions are made more and more by the individuals, those closer to the opportunity, those closer to the actual work going on, those closer to the problem that's trying to be solved. And in front of Amway. Gosh. And so I Go back to 1964 in New York World Fair. There was the hall of Free Enterprise that was part of the New York World Fair. And it had in front of it were the pillars of economic wisdom, the ten pillars of economic wisdom. And in the 1970s, when we built our headquarters building at Amway, dad and Jay bought that exhibit, and they placed those pillars, not the actual pillars, but the phrases on those pillars, these principles of free enterprise, in front of our headquarters building. And they're still there today. And I think about them often. And then my father gave a speech often called Man's Material Welfare, which was your material welfare, not your spiritual welfare. But in an economic sense, material welfare is determined by, you know, by a few things, by, you know, human energy. And you add human energy to natural resources. So it's the things that, you know, everything comes from the, the world around us that's been created around us. We figure out how to turn into a, a stone, a tool, whatever, you know, a plant into food, whatever it is. And so that's a, that's an easy equation, it's an addition equation. And then, and then the next part of the equation was you take that and you multiply what can be done between natural resources and human energy by tools. And then it's the ownership of the tools and it's the creativity of the tools and the productivity of the tools. When they're in a free society and individuals can make decisions about those tools and how we're going to use that human energy and natural resource to, you know, to create products and services and goods and all these other sorts of things that's going to take us, you know, to the next level. And so we, you know, dad's speech, you know, of selling America, when we compared our, you know, our free enterprise system to the socialism or communism at the time, that, that's what sets us apart. That's why the US is more productive. That was why in many stages in the old Soviet Union, they couldn't produce enough food to feed themselves because they had the state owned farms and somebody in Moscow, I guess would tell people how to farm and when they should do it and how they should do it. And we're in the US you just had farmers who knew what they were doing and fed our families, fed our country and fed the world. And so it's the ownership of those tools. And when those tools are our own even, and as it says in these pillars of economic wisdom, even when people are well meaning, even when they're really smart, they're highly educated, they're well meaning, they're trying to do the right things. Nobody can do for you what you can do for yourself. And so that's the idea that you have this ability and that free enterprise allows you to take that your talents and gifts and turn it into something that's productive, that adds value and turn into success for yourself and for your community.
- [26:06]
Interviewer
Well, that equation is a great framework to understand and how that kind of economic prosperity and growth leads to human flourishing and just so much meaning. Well, continuing along the principle of positivity, you're a very positive person. You have an infectiously positive manner.
- [26:26]
Doug DeVos
So are you, Kevin.
- [26:28]
Interviewer
I remember once I was really smiling at my house, and my wife said, why are you smiling? I said, well, I just had just a great call with Doug DeVos. And she goes, have you ever had anything other than a great call with Doug? That's a great point, and that's a big part of this. What does that mean? And how can our listeners apply what your approach to being positive can contribute to others?
- [26:52]
Doug DeVos
Well, I think one of the things that I learned growing up from the Amway experience from my dad and mom was, you can always do something to make things better, and God's never going to give you more than you can handle. And even in difficult times, we got to find a way to go forward. And I wasn't there at the time. My grandfather passed away before I was born. But I remember my dad saying at the funeral, yes, we're all sad, but life is for the living. We have to move on. And even in the most difficult circumstances, you still have to move forward. And then it's a choice. You can choose to, you know, to look at things positively, or you can choose to look at things negatively. And my grandmother, after my grandfather passed, I remember her talking. I do remember this. She said I wasn't the most positive person, but after her husband passed, my grandpa, she said, I thought I'd better be positive or else the kids aren't going to come see me. And so she changed. And when I would go see my Grandma devos, she was the most positive person. She was always welcoming. She was always this and that. She goes, I never used to be like that, but I needed to be that way because I wanted the kids and the grandkids to come see me and have a good experience. And so I think that positivity is a choice. I. I just like. I just like living there. You know, I can be negative sometimes. Watching a game, like watching a sporting event when my team's losing, I can get pretty negative, Right? You know, but then, you know, then you got to say, there's always next year. You know, you got to go, there's going to be next year. There's going to be the next game we're going to. You know, someday we'll get this figured out, and you just have to live that way. But I think it's a choice. And I just saw. I saw my family and our business go through a lot of difficult times, but I just saw dad and Jay at Amway, and my mom and dad in our family just choose to find a positive direction out of it all, to find a solution and then to move towards that solution. And that has just become a hallmark to say, okay, well, it's bad now. Well, what can we do? Let's do something else. I'm in a bad job, I don't like my job, let's go find another one. There's a lot of people looking for good people and maybe you can make the connection somewhere else. You know, whatever it is, you're never stuck. That was the biggest thing in the Depression. My grandfather lost his job, they lost their home. They were in a difficult situation. But my grandfather, grandfather kept telling my dad and his sisters, you know, someday I'm going to get my job back. Someday, you know, we're going to move forward. Like the letters dad and Jay exchanged, they just were always like, someday it's going to get better. We're not stuck. And he chose to be positive and to find their way through. And so that's the element or the background to that.
- [30:26]
Interviewer
Wow. Well, you know, I don't think we would naturally think of positivity as a principle, but it's such a great illustration too, because I think history demonstrates we're naturally attracted to people who offer a more optimistic outlook on the future. And that story about your grandmother, that also shows that we can change. You know, we can't. You just, we're not set in our ways. We can actually, actually change. Well, that actually dovetails nicely or continues nicely into the point about human dignity and the respect for others. Another key principle of believe. Love your comments on that. One thing that I've thought about, you all are involved in so many different things and your family owns the Orlando Magic basketball team. And I don't know whether it was with your dad or just the extension of your family today, but just the manner in which you all have taken an interest in the well being of the players on the team, sure to me is a helpful illustration of that principle of respect. Tell me more about that.
- [31:28]
Doug DeVos
Well, it really starts from a faith foundation, right? That God created all of us and created all of us with different talents, unique talent, skills, gifts. And therefore everyone's just by being a person is worthy of. Of that respect because of. Because. Because just who they are, just their existence. And that, that in that case, I can't add anything to your value as a person that's already been created in you, nor can I take anything away from your value as a person. And so it really goes. I just need to recognize that and live accordingly. And you might look differently than me. You may believe something differently than me. You may pursue other goals or see things differently than me, but that doesn't diminish your value that you have. And so when you live that way and you see the value of everybody in the world around you, you start to think about how you fit in. Okay, how do I now show people that I see they have value? How do I give people that level of respect and how do I then relate to them? Because I should probably have a similar level of respect as well. So I have an element of self respect because I'm giving respect. If I'm going to give respect to you, it seems reasonable to expect that you're going to give a level of respect to me. Now we're working in a partnership. Now we're working in a relationship in a way that allows us to be more productive with one another. And so this idea is absolutely fundamental in, in the Amway business. Again, I told you I was going to go. Forgive me for going to all these stories, but in the early days, in the way our business model works, anybody can join Amway. You can, you know, you get sponsored by somebody, but anyone can join. And in the early days, there was a consultant that, that went to dad and Jay and said, well, you might want to rethink that. You, you know, you might want to put some qualifiers out there. You know, you might have an educational standard. Maybe they need some sales experience and they should, you know, be good at making presentations and product demonstrations and these sorts of things. And kind of went through his list of what they should do. And dad and Jay fired him, and they fired him and they told us the stories because the question was, who do you want to leave out? Why do we do all these sorts of things to leave people out? It's up to us. We felt in our business, it's up to us to give them the opportunity. It's up to them to deliver. They've got to do something with it and turn it into something. But that comes from an element of respecting everybody rather than saying, well, I respect you because you have this degree, and. And I don't respect that person because they don't have that degree. Wait a minute. What are we doing? It's Dr. Seuss star belly Sneetches. What sort of qualification are we trying to say if this person has value and this person doesn't? Now, I'm all for education, but I'm also seeing people that have street smarts who don't have formal education, or really smart people that I'VE experienced in my life. And so this idea of human dignity, because we don't want to leave anybody out. Unfortunately, the history of the world is trying to figure out how to leave people out. You know, every job application, you know, whether it's a, you know, a criminal background or whether it's an educational background or what, all these sorts of things. Why is that? So HR can easily go through and eliminate people. So we only get the best. Really? Is that the best way to do it?
- [35:44]
Interviewer
And are you getting the best?
- [35:45]
Doug DeVos
Are you really getting the best?
- [35:46]
Interviewer
And that ties back to your whole point about unlimited potential.
- [35:49]
Doug DeVos
Exactly.
- [35:49]
Interviewer
If we all have unlimited potential.
- [35:51]
Doug DeVos
Exactly right.
- [35:52]
Interviewer
Wow. All right, so another principle is about America. And you have continued your dad's service with the National Constitution Center. You're the chairman of the board, the amazing entity based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And here we are about to celebrate America's 250 50th birthday. How is all that relevant to us today?
- [36:13]
Doug DeVos
Wow. Well, you're getting me going on a lot of different tracks here because you're.
- [36:18]
Interviewer
Involved in so much stuff. And we're going big.
- [36:21]
Doug DeVos
Yeah, we're going big. This is. This is how you go big. You definitely bite off more than you can chew. Well, just. Just a. A little bit on the National Constitution. Sorry, maybe I just had it tell a story. One of the things, the reasons, again, like I said, I do basically just follow my parents, right. And do what they did because they did pretty well in the late 90s. They wanted to do something significant, you know, to demonstrate a little bit of their patriotism. They'd been very generous here locally in social causes, and that they really wanted to do something at a bigger scale. And there are two options. One was the visitor center at the Capitol Building. That's. That was. Was being proposed at that time. And the other was a National Constitution center in Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia. And they chose that one, and they got deeply involved with it as it was being developed and created. And when I went to it, the opening in 2003, I had a chance to sit next to a Supreme Court justice. And nothing quite lets you know how uneducated, uninformed, or any other thing you want than sitting next to a Supreme Court justice, where it was Antonin Scania.
- [37:38]
Interviewer
Well, particularly Scalia. My goodness, he was such a powerful.
- [37:42]
Doug DeVos
So I'm sitting there going, okay, how am I going to talk to. You know, but it just. And he was amazing, and he was lovely, but it just helped you think and solidify how special that this country is and how Much work it took not only to establish it and the establishment of the Constitution or the time of the Revolutionary War, the Declaration of Independence and all those elements, but how much work it takes to hold it together and how many things we've done wrong and to recognize that like any of us as an individual, like any organization, community, or company, make mistakes and devastating. But we have built into our Constitution or our country the ability to change and to improve and to get better. And the promise of America is that we can get better and that we can move forward, and that we have within our grasp and our ability the opportunity to improve. And so when you look at our history, we're not doomed to repeat it. We're actually required or empowered to overcome some of the things that we've done wrong. When we recognize that, and then when we spend our time making sure everyone feels part of our country and all the other principles that we've been talking about, everyone has something to contribute, everyone has something to add. There's value that can be given, and we can make our country better so we can be a better, better place of opportunity, prosperity for more and more people. And so the idea of America, you know, the principles that are enshrined in the Declaration. And Jeff Rosen, who's the CEO at the National Constitution center, does a wonderful job of unpacking the phrase the pursuit of happiness. And as he goes. There's a lot to that phrase and there's a lot of history and why it was used. The core element was that it was not to feel good. Pursuing happiness wasn't to feel good. It was to pursue being good, to have virtues and to live your life in the service of others. And so it was about overcoming passion and using reason to pursue a life of being good. And so forgive me, but that's, again, a long story of coming back to why I believe in our country so much and how operating or trying to think about things at that level can create a level of unity that you don't see in all of our politics today. We have a lot of discussions and debates at the National Constitution center with scholars on both sides of the intellectual spectrum, conservative or liberal, however you want to define that spectrum. And they really like debating, and they really like making their case, and they really like finding what's wrong with the other side. And then they have a cup of coffee and sit around and talk about it and other sorts of things, and then they learn from each other. And that's one of the things that. That when Jeff would conduct some. Some similar Things, he'll have a, you know, we'll have a session and a given topic will be out there. And he'll say, okay, before the meeting, how many believe this? And hands will go up, and how many kind of believe this on the side of the issue and other hands will go up and. And at the end of the discussion and the presentation, he'll do the same thing. And roughly the same amount of hands go up for either side. So not too many people change their position. But then he asked a third question and said, do you have a better understanding of the other side? And that's when everybody's hand goes up. And that's the idea. As you get together, you have a better understanding of each other. And now, okay, I may not agree with that position, but I know why you do. And that might get me to thinking that maybe I'm not as perfect in my position as I thought I may have been. Maybe there's some things I didn't consider that you're considering, and maybe you're doing the same thing. So maybe we can find a way to. To work together or figure something out. But I believe that as an imperfect country, we can still work to be more perfect, and we got to keep trying.
- [43:00]
Interviewer
In order to form a more perfect union. These principles really intertwine freedom with accountability, unlimited potential back to respect for others related to this. All right, let's keep going. Persistence.
- [43:18]
Doug DeVos
Sure.
- [43:21]
Interviewer
Give us your take on that.
- [43:24]
Doug DeVos
Well, it's just. You just don't give up, right?
- [43:27]
Interviewer
You know, is that an encouragement or a chastisement?
- [43:31]
Doug DeVos
No, no, it's an encouragement. It's definitely an encouragement. It is just. Okay, I got to figure out, as we talked earlier about barriers in life, I'm going to figure out how to go over it, around it, below it, or whatever I got to do or reframe the whole thing. So, you know, we did a session at, you know, an Innovation at Amway years ago, and I think the gentleman's name was Mike Vance, who came in and he wrote, you know, you got to think outside the box. And. And many times he would say, innovation. Yeah, it can be something completely new. Yeah, I just thought of this new idea, but many times it's putting together the things you already know in a new way. And so, you know, you gotta, you know, you may have a different box of your thinking, but maybe if you put it together in a new way, you create a new box, and now you can find the solution, you know, to your problem. And so, you know, I think persistence is just you just keep trying to figure it out, you know, in a, you know, in a sporting context. How do I, you know, how do I throw a strike? You know, how do I get the ball in the hoop? How do I, you know, avoid, you know, you know, sack the quarterback or whatever the, whatever the illustration is? I like to use sports illustrations a lot, but it's, I think it's a very positive thing. Just, I'm just going to keep trying to figure it out and trying to, you know, trying to find a new and a better way, you know, to get something done. And so, and that it's more than just, you know, banging your head and gets wall and keep doing it over and over again. It's, it's finding creative ways to do it. But that's what make life fun. How fun would it be to think, well, yeah, there's a problem in the world. Well, I guess there's just nothing we can do about it, you know, it's like Eeyore on Winnie the Pooh, right? You know, well, it's just the way it is. You can't fight city hall. You can't do this. Well, yeah, maybe the big barriers, but I don't know. What can you do? You know, let's figure it out, you know, and, and, you know, you know, so I, I think persistence is a very positive term. It's not some, it's not somebody telling you to pursue. Just keep going, you know, just keep working harder. You know, it, it's, it's an inside out thing and it's a positive thing. So I'm just going to keep trying to figure it out. How do I be better? How do I sell more stuff? How do I make a better product? How do I make a better mousetrap? You know, how do I build a better relationship with my spouse, with my family, with my neighbor, with our community? You know, all those sorts of things. I'm just going to keep trying to figure it out and I'm not going to be discouraged. Maybe somebody treats me badly or they say the wrong thing or they, you know, they, I'm just going to go, well, maybe they don't know me yet. I'm going to try again. Yeah, just keep trying. See, See what we can do.
- [46:20]
Interviewer
Wow, that's, that's really awesome. Well, I got a couple more to close us out on, but you know our good friend Andreas Widmer, You've had him on your podcast, I've had him on mine. He talks about the art of principle and entrepreneurship, especially related to artsyoka who developed boxed wine out of necessity because he bought this company and didn't realize he'd lost this price advantage on glass. And he was out of the market, and he came up with this idea for boxed wine. But how many hundreds of failures he had? Safeway banned him from coming in, the things leaked and all these other problems, but he kept on trying, and we tend to see the success. It's like, oh, this person must have had it easy all their life. But you look into it. It's a pretty rigorous path to get there. All right, well, next is faith. And you and your wife and your family are very involved here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. You have a belief in your city. And you had an event earlier this year I attended Believe in Our City. And you started the presentation. 300 or 400 business leaders, other community leaders from Grand Rapids. Very disparate, diverse group. And you started off talking about grace.
- [47:31]
Doug DeVos
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:33]
Interviewer
Comment on that?
- [47:34]
Doug DeVos
Yeah. Well, it's. Well, obviously the concept comes from our faith, right. That I'm a sinner saved by grace. And that as a Christian, I believe that is, once you celebrate Christmas and you celebrate Easter, that God bridged the gap through Jesus Christ to overcome that sin. Not because what I've done, definitely not what I've done or what I'm doing, there's no way I'm ever going to be good enough. But I'm loved anyway. And so it's that grace that. That's been given to me, and in a context sometimes when people are coming from different points of view and you're getting together as a community, you're going to talk, you know, some challenging issues. We talked about race a lot. We talked about economic opportunity a lot. We talked about, you know, other business opportunities.
- [48:38]
Interviewer
I know, economic mobility, which is all tied together.
- [48:41]
Doug DeVos
Economic mobility. We talked about all those things. And. And we had a lot of, you know, government officials and people on different sides of, you know, of the political spectrum, that when you're at a table and somebody is saying something, they may not say it, right? They may. Some. They may say something that tweaks you or just hits you wrong rather than responding, just let it go. Just have a little grace. Just let it go. And if you say something, or in the case I use, if I say something that offends anybody, I'm going to ask for it. Just give me a little grace. I don't know. It's an uninformed position. Certainly not my intention, because. And so raise it with me. You can say, boy, when you said that you made me feel bad. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for telling me. I will absolutely try to find a better way to speak or communicate or engage or whatever the case may be. So the idea is that if God gives us grace at such a magnificent level to overcome this gap of sin between him and us and me, then maybe we can at least give a little grace between one another from time to time and not react so negatively when somebody says something that bothers me. Maybe they didn't intend it. Maybe they intended what they said, but they didn't mean to make me mad about it. I don't know. But if I give them a little grace, maybe I'll find out, and maybe I can build a relationship, and maybe I'll learn something, you know, because I could be wrong. You know, that's. That's something I think we all got to remember. I could be wrong again. Maria tells me that a lot. You know, Doug, you might just be wrong about this. So. So I. I think it's an important element when. When you come together with a lot of people that, you know, I may say something that bothers somebody, hope they give me a little grace. And I hope they say, you know, when you said that, I didn't appreciate it. Wow, I'm sorry. Then it gives me a chance to say I'm sorry. What can I do? Can I overcome it? And so I think that's an important element just in relationships. And for me, from a faith perspective, it comes because if I believe that I've been given grace, I don't deserve it, that I should share it, and I should do the same for others rather than just react or assume bad intent. Maybe there is. I don't know. But I think that element's important to have a part of our life.
- [51:35]
Interviewer
Amen. Well, all right. Well, last thing is family. It's not the last thing. One of the most important things I remember at your dad, Rich DeVos memorial service, there were four principles that talked about faith, family, freedom, and philanthropy. In fact, I think if you joke that from a marketing standpoint, if your dad could have spelled philanthropy with an F, he would have. Yeah, exactly. So that it would all come together. But tell us what defined family and why that's a principle of some importance.
- [52:10]
Doug DeVos
Yeah. For us growing up in our family. And most of the stories I've talked about, most experiences I've had, I've been incredibly blessed to grow up with mom and dad who loved me, who supported me, who encouraged me, who gave me grace as well. I think there's a few years in my life when I wasn't very lovable and they told me about it. I mean, they made sure I knew, but they loved me anyway. And you know, because of that experience, you find that this group of people that I didn't choose are the most important to me and that I look to the most for love or support or comfort that I cherish and value the most and look to be with on a regular basis. My parents, my siblings, you know, now Maria, and our children and grandchildren. And so this idea is powerful and it breaks my heart when somebody didn't have that experience. If they had a different experience or you know, maybe they didn't know their family or they have a very non traditional family, family setup that can still be family, a second marriage, something else. You can still find people in your life that you're close to that you can create this idea of family. Because I don't want to restrict the idea with just only one definition. How do you have people in your life that are important to you? But in my experience, in my case, it was this idea that I had a place in a group of people where I knew I was loved even when I was unlovable. That taught me, that helped me, that supported me and that gave me a place to always go back to if I felt lonely or out of touch. And the value of that, and the idea is that, gosh, I want everybody to have that experience. And you may have a parent, there's people who've come from an abusive background. It's tragic. And so you're not going to have it from your mom or your dad or siblings or adults in your life when you were young. But how do we find that? How do we surround people and support them with this idea then? And those struggles are not just now. There's been a lot of bad parents in this world over the course of time. And so it became something. Back to your point. It became something that was a focal point for us and, and for me, that, that. And we work at it a lot. You know, it's not just everything's Kumbaya. We work through struggles and challenges and, and figure it out, but find a way to keep coming together and support one another. And I like taking the concept, as I was saying, I like taking the concept and broadening it to make sure people feel included. You know, this idea of a sense of belonging, you know, we can say in a community there's a sense of belonging, you know, and everyone belongs in our community, whether it's Grand Rapids, or it's a neighborhood in Grand Rapids. And that's great, but that's not quite personal enough. And at some point, family, who's that adult down the street, who's that? Somebody who's. Who's going to invest in you when you're young or walk with you when you're in your form, you know, formative years, or still be there with you in your older years, whatever it is. Who are those people in your life? And so that's the idea, I think, that we're trying to get to, with family.
- [56:38]
Interviewer
Oh, by the way, your dad had that book, one of his many books about 10 powerful words and phrases, something or other. And some of them were, I love you and I'm sorry. He told me the story that when you were a rather rambunctious teenager, you'd broken curfew one night there was a curfew set, and he was waiting up for you, and he was getting kind of sort of angrier and angrier by the minute or hour as you came in late and you came in and he was so upset. And then you came and you looked at him and you used those powerful words and phrases. You said, I'm sorry and I love you. And he said. He just melted. Is that a true story?
- [57:17]
Doug DeVos
Yes, it is. And it wasn't just one night. I may have. I may have been late for curfew. You. It might be. Might have been a lot of them. But, yeah, the phrase, you know, I'm sorry, I'm wrong, you know, I love you, you know, and then if you kind of turn some of the other phrases around and say, you know, I'm proud of you, I respect you. Thank you. You know, just simple phrases that you can learn, you know, use in life. And, you know, I read his book, so I got to use it on him, you know, and. And I can. From personal experience, I can tell you it works because it wasn't just words. I knew I was wrong. So I can sit there and argue all day. I knew what I was told and I knew what I did, and I was. I was wrong, and I didn't want him to be mad at me, and I didn't feel good about it. And one of the things you do when you're a teenager is you make stupid choices or bad decisions or whatever the case may be. That seemed to be at the time, but I don't want my dad waiting up for me being angry. I didn't appreciate doing it for my kids either, but they read the book as well, and they used it on me the same way, you know, and, but it's, it's really those phrases of how to establish a relationship. Yeah. And even when things go wrong.
- [58:52]
Interviewer
All right, I've got two wrap up questions. This has been terrific. Thank you for giving us all your time today. Doug DeVos. Doug, what advice would you give to your younger self if you could, looking back maybe on those days, as a teenager, in your 20s or whatever, you've had a remarkable life and you got many, many years ahead. Looking forward to all these things that you're going to do to continue to big. What advice would you give to your younger self?
- [59:25]
Doug DeVos
I, I think, you know, a couple things come to mind. Probably. One, be more curious, ask more questions and kind of associated with it, Learn faster. You know, like I said, I wasn't late only one night, you know, you know, I don't need to make a mistake 20 times. You know, I wish I would have made a mistake a couple times and then learned from it, or I wish I would have asked more questions sooner. When I thought I was right, I was so sure I was right and I was going to fight for it. And I forgot to ask a question because knowing a little more information would have been helpful in whatever the situation may have been. So I, those are the two things that, that really come to. How do I learn faster? How do I stay curious, keep asking questions and recognize that while I have a belief system and this is what I believe, I may not always be right on everything that's happening in my life because I've also learned I'm surrounded by a lot of really smart people who are observant and who care. And, and so those are a couple things that come to mind that I look back on. I wish I'd do better at that. And I'm trying and kind of follow on. I'm trying to do that now. I'm trying to do a better job of phrasing things in meetings and interactions with people that. Trying to do a better job to ask questions. I'm trying to do a better job of finding out about where they're coming from, what's going on in their life, what they're dealing with, what they're seeing about a given issue, whatever it may be. And so I'm trying to figure out how to apply those things because I'm not dead yet, thank goodness.
- [61:21]
Interviewer
All right, well, this is the Going Big podcast, really intended to inspire people to dream big cast big bold visions, big hairy, audacious goals, moonshots, Again, your family is a great description of that. But what advice would you give us in closing out those that are listening as to how to think about going big in the rest of our lives?
- [61:45]
Doug DeVos
Or keep dreaming, you know, keep dreaming. Don't ever. Don't ever think you're stuck. Don't ever think you're stuck. Whatever the, the. Whatever the case may be, whatever the situation might be, keep dreaming. Keep challenging yourself. Keep asking those questions. Keep, you know, keep driving yourself, you know, to achieve the next level, you know, you know, it's just phrases, you know, oh, you're never going to do that. Well, you can't say it's never going to be done. Somebody just hasn't figured it out yet. You know, that's what the beauty of time. And so to go big, I would, I always encourage people, keep dreaming. What. What do you want to go big at? What do. What is it? What's it look like? Don't stop. You know, this idea that we have the ability to try, you know, we have the ability to dream. We have the ability to see things that aren't existing yet and figure out how to help make them exist, how to put them in place again in our material sense. In the world where we live, there's so many things that we can do. And so my encouragement is to everybody to go big, go back to unlimited potential, believing in people and believing in yourself. And with that idea, that world creates so much opportunity if we're just willing to do something about it, and if you're not dreaming and if you're not willing to do something about it, then it's going to be really hard to go big. But if you got a dream and a goal and an aspiration and you're willing to try and you're willing to do things maybe differently, and you're willing to learn along the way, then I believe you can achieve it. And so that's what. That's what we all, all should be trying to do in our lives and in all different aspects.
- [63:54]
Interviewer
Well, Doug DeVos, it is always a pleasure to spend time with you. I hope we can do this again.
- [64:00]
Doug DeVos
Absolutely. Anytime, Kevin. You bet, my friend.
- [64:02]
Interviewer
All right, let's go big.
- [64:03]
Doug DeVos
All right, Keep going big, everybody.
- [64:05]
Interviewer
Thank you.
- [64:05]
Doug DeVos
Thanks, Kevin.
- [64:06]
Interviewer
Thanks, Doug.
- [64:06]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for listening to today's Going Big podcast. Hopefully you were inspired to go big for your cause. Remember, this is all about true transforming your effectiveness by 10xing your fundraising. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe or leave us a review at itunes. Spotify IHEARTRADIO or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also catch this episode on YouTube. And also there are lots of resources available to you at my website, which is 10x strategies.com that's T E N xstrategies. Com. You can sign up also for our free weekly fundraising tips. This is all about helping you get to the root causes of some of the biggest problems in society today by transforming your fundraising and your effectiveness. Thanks again. We'll see you again soon.
- [64:58]
Interviewer
Bye.