A (3:10)

Prison Fellowship means hope for so many people who are behind bars. In fact, just last week I was at got to be a guest at a TedX event in prison and heard probably 40 plus stories and speakers, and I was just a puddle by the end. Kevin. But part of why I attended is several of those speakers were women who had graduated the Prison Fellowship Academy. And part of their story was coming to realize that even though they were in a dark place, a rock bottom place in their life, a physically a dark place in terms of being in prison, they had found new hope and a way to step into new purpose. Even for those who share that they have no hope of release, they have a different kind of hope, an eternal hope. And so that's what Prison Fellowship represents to people in prison. Living in prison, working in prison, families impacted by incarceration. And we also work with lawmakers across the country to ensure that the hope of the Gospel is also reflected in the public square.

B (4:19)

Well, thank you. Prison Fellowship is one of the ultimate going big stories in my judgment, as are you as the leader today. So there's a lot to dig into in terms of the theme and objectives of this podcast. But as I say, at this special moment when we focus on sort of radical forgiveness that Jesus preached, and then here we are at the celebration of Easter and the ultimate story of redemption. I noted the story of Chuck Colson and the founding of Prison Fellowship in the introduction. Is there some aspect of his story that still shapes the mission today and your work today? I want to bring it to the present day, but tell me a little bit about how what happened to him affects how you all approach this work.

A (5:08)

Yes. Well, I, I love that you shared a little bit of his story and I want to pick up on, on a line that you shared, which was that he really encountered Christians before going to prison and, and during. And I think that continues to shape who we are because Chuck, you know, made a decision to follow Christ in the midst of all of the chaos of the Watergate scandal, that shame. But there was actually a bipartisan group of members of Congress who came around him during that time, prayed for him, supported his family while he was in prison. And then he gets to prison and not really knowing what to expect. If you've read his story in Born Again, if you haven't, I highly recommend to those listening that you check it out. It's a classic and he's a little bit fearful at times at different points, but he finds inside there is this Alive and well, brotherhood of other men who are following Jesus. And in fact, you know, they, they end up praying together, then they're praying for healing and they're praying for miracles and, and they see some of those things come to fruition. And so very much the church outside and inside played a role in Chuck's own story. And he gets this vision, you know, to start Prison Fellowship. And on his way out of prison, one of the guys and said, guys like you guys who come here from fame or politics and land themselves in prison, they forget us after they leave. And Chuck promised he would not forget, and he didn't. And what continues to live on through Chuck's legacy is a belief that we are to do ministry with those impacted by incarceration. In other words, this is a two way street. We say we don't come to bring Jesus into prison because when you get there, you will find he is alive and well already. And so you get to join him in that work. And we're so blessed that we have so many amazing people behind bars who are really doing ministry 24 7, even when we as staff or volunteers aren't there.

B (7:13)

Well, there's so much here to unpack. And you know, I noted that this is the ultimate story of hope and dignity and redemption and finding Jesus and that influence and effective at all. I do want to actually take it a little back a little bit more even to Chuck Colson, because I confess I had forgotten aspects of the story. What he was accused of in the Nixon administration was some pretty rough tactics. I mean, it was pretty brutal. He was the hatchet man. And perhaps before he, he found his Christian faith, he was able to justify what he was doing. And then he came to Christ before he went to prison. But there were those then who said, oh, come on, this is an opportunistic move. He's just doing this. Maybe they'll get a reduced sentence. There are even aspects of how he faced the charges of guilt openly because of his faith at that time. But as you say, he found these people of faith in prison, which I really want to get into in terms of that influence. But yet also in founding Prison Fellowship at that point, I think the view of incarcerated people was pretty negative. Not to say that it has changed that much. You are doing a lot to change that. But when you went to prison, it was seen as like to some degree, the end of things. How does that vision for Prison Fellowship sort of become relevant even today?

A (8:50)

Yes, you know, I think at that time there was not so much, I think A clarion call to the church to live out what Matthew 25 tells us. Visit the prisoner, you go to Hebrews, and you'll see, remember those in prison. And I think Chuck's story in that moment in history really created a moment in time where he put it out to the church, actually. In fact, I've gone back and I've read some of the early documents of Prison Fellowship to see what Chuck was thinking. And he actually thought he would start Prison Fellowship and it would be finished in five years. We would equip and change the church and help them to do this work, and then we could pack our bags and be done. And, of course, his thinking evolved over time. He began to see, you know, we play a really important role as a liaison between the church and departments of corrections, and there's more we have to offer, but he really believed in that this is the church's role. And he wrote that if we ever were to fail to equip the church, that God was take his hand off of us at Prison Fellowship. And so I think if you look back at that, and also, if there's so many ministries out there now, there's churches who do their own local ministry and their local jail, tons of different ministries have started. And so many of them have a story of how Chuck Colson and his story and his ministry at Prison Fellowship inspired their own.

B (10:22)

Well, you. You mentioned you reference Matthew. You know, I was just in my own scripture reading this week rereading some of these points about just the radical forgiveness that Jesus preached, which is. It's hard to. I mean, even as a Christian, it's hard to say that's really that deep. You're willing to go that deep. And that's what this is about. I love the fact that you said that, you know, Chuck Olson thought maybe his work would be done. I'd be interested in your thoughts of how, if he could see it today, what he would think in terms of how the vision has continued to be realized. And I also want to just emphasize, as I'm sure you would, too, you know, Chuck Colson later in life was just viewed as so greatly admired and respected as a man of faith. So it was not like this charge that was somehow opportunism in the beginning, obviously well beyond that. But he really became very strong and deep in that faith. And how do you think he would see it today?

A (11:30)

Well, you know, to your point, his faith lasted all of his life. And in fact, just for our 50th year anniversary, we had his daughter Emily Speak to our board alumni. And she shares the story of a few years back, we actually hosted an event at the Watergate Hotel for Second Chance Month, which we celebrate in April. And she goes to get a tour of the Watergate before she's on to speak. And the tour guide has no idea who she is or her, you know, her relationship, you know, to Chuck Colson. And so he tells the story from his vantage point and talks a lot about her dad and all of the negative things you had to say at the opening. Kevin. It was that times 10. And so she's holding back everything she can to not pipe in. And then at the very end, he says, and all of the men involved in Watergate went on to become very rich. And that's the end of the story. And she just can't help herself. And she's like, that's not the end of the story. Because at least one man. One man went on. And then she shares, you know, what her dad did and his lifetime. And she also shared with us, not only is what my dad did in his lifetime and what he did in starting Prison Fellowship and visiting people in prison every Easter, by the way, Chuck Colson was in prison celebrating Easter with men or women behind bars. That was his tradition. And he gave so much of his life to this work. He gave so much of his life to shaping Christian worldview. And she said, not only did he give his whole life to that, it's not the end of the story, because prison fellowship story isn't over. And I do believe, you know, Chuck would be very proud of what we've continued to do and the focus that we have on the local church and having the church inside, as Chuck called it, our brothers and sisters behind bars who are following after Jesus to be in relationship with the local church outside. I know every time I go in, it revives my faith. I've seen it happen to so many churches who volunteer with us. The blessing is always greater on the other side of the fence. And I also think he'd be thrilled the work we're doing on justice, how we're impacting families and seeing kids receive a first chance so that they never need a second, even though they have a mom or dad in prison. And I also think you'd be pretty surprised if the work that we've done through the Warden Exchange, which is a program that started after his passing, but we actually train wardens in, how do you promote transformational leadership and human dignity in your prison? And this has not only increased the network that these Corrections leaders have amongst themselves to try new things and have courage. But it's also opened the door for more of Prison Fellowship's programming in places that may have otherwise been closed to us.

B (14:20)

Well, I talked about how I want to talk about your going big story and what you're doing today. So you're already giving us a taste of that and how you're taking it to this next level beyond what Chuck said in motion, you noted when you go behind bars. So for somebody listening who's never done that, presumably most people listening, what should we know? Help us sort of begin to understand what you see at the beginning and then what you're seeing in terms of the hearts and souls of people that are literally behind bars.

A (14:58)

Yeah. You know, last night I was doing our Bible study with married couples, Bible study that my husband and I had been leading, and we were talking about how it's. It's the moments in life when you experience the greatest hardship, when you experience despair, that are the moments that stand out, when you can feel the peace of God at its highest. And I see that all the time when I visit prison, there is such a gratitude for grace that I think I take for granted in my own walk and need to be reminded of. There's such a focus on eternal things. And I think it's that, you know, moments of despair, moments of hitting rock bottom that people in prison have experienced. And as a result, they understand the peace of God in a way that is pretty profound. And so I see that all the time when I go into prison. And I was 10 telling you about the TEDx Talk event that I got to go in, and several of our graduates spoke, and one of the first women to go up, she went by the name Turtle, and she sat next to me all day. And this woman has a life sentence. She may never walk out of that prison. But in the course of being in prison, through first an experience with Kairos and then growing in her faith through the Prison Fellowship Academy, she's found Jesus, she's found purpose. And now I can't tell you how many of the other talks I heard for the rest of the day referenced Turtle as a part of their story of them coming to find purpose and hope. And she actually leads a curriculum we use, Celebrate. Recovery has been a big part of her story. And so she leads a group of women in that. And in fact, one of the people who shared that Turtle had influenced her was a volunteer. And Turtle convinced her, as she learned more of the volunteer story, that she ought to join through their Celebrate Recovery group as a participant. And this volunteer had this realization, begrudgingly attending this group, that she needed it just as much as these women in prison. And so that's the beauty. If you've never gone before, Prison Fellowship would love to host you. We have programs all across the country, hundreds of programs across the country. And there is such an important role that can be played when we feed the hungry, clothe the naked. And, yes, there is visit the prisoner. So if you haven't gotten to do it, Prison Fellowship loves to equip people to do just that.

B (17:40)

Wow, thank you. Well, I don't want to close out without even giving more specific instructions from you about how people can. Can become more engaged. Thank you for telling some stories and bringing it to life so we could begin to understand. Help us even further understand the nature of the. Of the challenge of the problem today. What is the state of incarceration in the United States today?

A (18:05)

Yes. So, you know, about 2 million people incarcerated in our country, and, you know, we have about 4% of the world's population, but we've got 16% of the world's prisoners here in the United States. And just to give that maybe some context that hits home a little, little closer, there was a study that actually showed one in two Americans have or had a family member who has been in the justice system. And so when you think about it, almost everyone has been affected by this issue in some way. Sometimes we don't think we do just because we don't talk about it, but in fact, it's really pervasive. And there are so many children who have experienced their parent behind bars. And, you know, one in three Americans has a criminal record, and so the numbers are big, and they can feel daunting, but we got to take it one step at a time. And that's why I'm grateful that Prison Fellowship has a lot of practical ways to come at providing solution.

B (19:11)

Well, one of the statistics I've seen you all share is that about what, 2.7 million children have a parent in prison, and help us just begin to appreciate the effect of that on a child's upbringing.

A (19:28)

Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of times it's dad behind bars. And that can mean, you know, a loss of not only a father figure in your life, but also often losing, you know, a breadwinner to the family. I know for us personally, my nephew is incarcerated, and so my great nieces and nephews are actually Prison Fellowship angel tree kids. They've experienced the programs we have offer, and I can remember taking my great nieces and nephews to one of our sports camps here in D.C. for the day. And a young man, Brandon, former NBA player who actually went to prison for point shading and his mom was also incarcerated during his childhood. He shares his testimony and coming to Jesus and how even though he thought it was the end of his story, it was just the beginning. And I can see my little great niece listening to this just intently. And she, at the end of his talk, makes a beeline up to him and I'm like, where are you going, Jenny? And so I try to catch up with her and she gets up to Brandon and she just says to him, my dad's in prison. And it was as if the weight of carrying that all the time on this little 8 year old's body was just finally free to say out loud to someone else, my dad's in prison. Because she knew that he had experienced that. And she realized in sitting in this gymnasium that everyone around me is experiencing the same thing. But I think, you know, that's emblematic of the feeling and the weight that kids carry all the time. And that's why I'm so grateful that we recognize, you know, it's not just the person in prison who's doing time, it's also the family. And Prison Fellowship is not only the nation's largest prison ministry, but we also have the largest outreach to children of the incarcerated.

B (21:22)

Well, you've got to wear a lot of hats, actually, as a leader of such a significant Christian ministry. If you don't mind me asking, when you experience something like what you just described, I mean, how does it make you feel about how you've devoted your life to this effort?

A (21:40)

You know, I went to law school, and I know a lot of my colleagues who went to law school, you know, don't love their jobs. What I can say is, you know, every day I wake up and I love. I get to do. It's so meaningful, Kevin. And I feel truly privileged that I get to see and have a front row seat to transformation. And, you know, for us, it's personal. This impacts our family. We've, you know, had family members who are the recipients of these programs. We've been volunteers through Prison Fellowship, Angel Tree with our local church. And I get to work in this space. And so, you know, it's. It's incredibly rewarding to work in this space.

B (22:21)

Thank you. Well, and my sense is that there's so much that's misunderstood or not understood, certainly for me. And I haven't even begun to dig into this. But even in the past few years, have I begun to appreciate this so much more. What's a. What's a myth about people in prison that you wish people understood wasn't true through.

A (22:46)

I think a myth people have about people in prison is this concept of us and them that, you know, how could I relate to someone in prison? There's really, I think, oftentimes a divide. And sometimes when you hear in political talks, you know, one liners about being three strikes and you're out and tough on crime and that kind of thing, you can start to hear a bit of taking out the humanity of people in prison. But let me tell you, you know, when. When anytime I've brought in people to visit people in prison, you learn, oh, I'm a mom, she's a mom. I'm a dad, he's a dad. I have hopes. She has hopes. I've had a worse day. This person's had a worst day. But guess what? You know what the real difference is, is I don't have to be defined by the worst day for the rest of my life. And so often we take someone's very worst day, their very worst choice, and we define that for the rest of their life. And I think, you know what comes with that, Kevin, is also the belief that people can't change. And I have seen some pretty. You want to test your faith? You want to test your belief in redemption? Come to prison or come to Prison Fellowship and meet some of our staff, because you will meet people who have made not just one bad choice, but perhaps, you know, 20 bad choices. And they may have felt like they couldn't change, but God can change anyone. And it's radical, as you said. I mean, the Easter message is radical. And what I get to see on full display at Prison Fellowship is that radical transformation that can happen even amongst those we have counted as less than and counted as never possible to change.

B (24:43)

All right, okay. Well, let us understand a little bit more about Heather. Okay. You mentioned you went to law school. Did you go to law school to lead Prison Fellowship? How did you get into this space? Tell us about your own personal journey that piqued this interest and then led you to this professional commitment.

A (25:06)

Yes. Well, no, I did not go to law school expecting to lead Prison Fellowship, not in the least bit. In fact, I really wanted to go to law school to work on another issue that's near and dear to my heart, and that is cross cutting with this issue, which is foster care and adoption. And my first policy Work that I ever did was for the Congressional Coalition on Adoption. And I thought to myself, you know, if I go to law school, I could work in that space. And that's what I was interested in doing. Well, I start my very first year of law school, Kevin, and I'm taking contracts and torts and civil procedure, and it's the most, you know, cutthroat environment I've probably ever been in. And I'm just thinking, man, why did I put myself through this? And I need a reminder of why I'm doing this. At the end of this is a job that I'm going to love and wake up and enjoy. But right now it feels pretty, pretty grueling. And so I started applying to some nonprofit roles and, you know, nothing in the foster care adoption space opened. And I get this role with a small nonprofit who at the time was actually working on detainee issues and the treatment of detainees. And so I helped them with some events to organize the faith community around that. And then they opened a portfolio into prison conditions, and they asked if I would take on that portfolio of issues. And so I thought, well, I don't know much about this, but, but sure, I'll do it. Well, I start researching, Kevin, and I'm starting to look at how many people we hold in prison, how long we're holding them for the very same crimes, you know, we convicted people of 20 years earlier. We're giving them a sentence, you know, two, three, four, five times as long, same crime. And then I'm looking at the conditions themselves. Some of the bills I worked on had to do with the restraints on pregnant and laboring moms in prison, the use of solitary confinement, where we hold someone in a solitary cell for about 23 hours a day. They get one hour oftentimes still in solitude, just, you know, out in a little bit bigger space to exercise and the toll this is taking on their mental health. And the more I read and research about it, and the more I think about that, for me, in the context of my faith, I just could not look away after that point. And so not at all what I expected to be doing. But I grew passionate about it. And it was in the course of doing that that I started working in coalition with Prison Fellowship while I'm in law school, working this job part time. And in fact, in a couple of weeks, we're about to honor the previous leader of our justice work at Prison Fellowship. His name's Pat Nolan with the Colson Advocate Hope Award, and he's gone on to do some great work at the American Conservative Union. But I was working in coalition with him and I just thought to myself, I've grown passionate about this issue. I have my law degree now, and wouldn't it be great to keep working on this issue but for an organization that reflects my faith values? And so that was the beginning of the story. A radical turn.

B (28:10)

Well, but I think, don't understand correctly, you also did some work in East Africa, and I wonder if that had some influence on your sense about human dignity and justice. Tell us a little bit more about what began to turn your heart in this direction.

A (28:29)

That's right. After I finished undergrad, I wanted to spend at least a year abroad. I had studied abroad in Senegal and then headed to East Africa to teach English for the year. And I would spend all of my free time in that one year after undergrad, before law school, in orphanages, volunteering. And again, you know, I was thinking, I'm going to go to law school to work in adoption and foster care policy. And I want to be at the front lines of seeing children that might be impacted by what I do. So that was motivating, you know, the time I would spend. And I just loved it. I loved having, you know, kids crawl all over me and just, you just spend time with those that God holds near and dear to his heart. But through that experience abroad, I also saw one. I got to relate to people who had, you know, very different faith than I did. The country I was in, in the Horn of Africa, it's about 99% Muslim population. So that was really growing of my own faith and challenging. And. And then I also saw, you know, poverty in a way that I'd never seen before. And I can remember so many stories of. And images that come to my mind as I think about the poverty I saw. But one that forever sticks with me is I actually had to go and leave my post about a month earlier than I had planned. And my, my grandfather had passed away. So I, I was getting a flight back to go to his service and I called a taxi to come maybe 5am in the morning. And so it, it's dusty, dusty streets. And I pack up, you know, the things I want to leave for this family that lived on the street that I had gotten to know. And I ask him, you know, to drive me there before we go to the airport, where I usually can find them next to this little store where they sleep and live as a grandmother, a little girl named Happy and her little sister Nemo. And so, you know, I'D probably put like some jewelry, extra clothes, just like any, anything, you know, I could think of that I wanted to leave behind for them to sell or what have you. And this little duffel bag. And so we pull up to the. The grocery store where I could sometimes find them. And I said, just, you know, just hang on one minute. Get the duffel bag out. And I turned the corner of this grocery store is looking for them. And I'll never forget there's this dusty green wheelbarrow. And they're in this little wheelbarrow, is curled up happy and Nemo asleep together in a wheelbarrow. And Kevin, I can't shake that wheelbarrow image from my mind of these two little girls curled up. And today I have two little girls at home that I put to bed every night. And I just thought to myself, like, this duffel bag feels so silly. This duffel bag. I'm leaving them. I don't know, is it going to help them at all? It can help them for a day, couple days. What they need is so much more than this duffel bag. What they need is not only the hope of the gospel in their lives, but they also need the hope of the gospel to play a role in the systems and structures that have landed them here on the streets with their grandmother, begging. And so all that to say, my experience living in East Africa for that year shaped the passion that I have for the dignity in the marginalized in the presence of the Lord when you spend time in those places. And it shaped my passion for a really holistic solution to complex problems. And that translates over to what we get to do at Prison Fellowship because, you know, as I mentioned, we not only share the hope of the gospel inside with people who are in prison, but we work on legislative reforms, we work on raising awareness with the culture at large, and we also have the Word and exchange program and get to, you know, have a front row seat to making change from within, from the. With the leaders who are in corrections.

B (32:42)

Wow, thanks for having a heart to do that and thanks for putting it into action. You, you also have brought something else to Prison Fellowship. See if this makes sense. But if I think back, you know, my view of the origins of Prison Fellowship with Chuck Colson was a man reaching men in prison. There have been other men who succeeded Chuck Colson, but as a woman, you're also reaching women behind bars. Not to say that wasn't happening before, but you have a different perspective. You mentioned the story of Turtle. Tell us a little bit more about that and is that something that you're especially focused on? And is there anything else that our listeners should take away from what you're seeing today?

A (33:34)

Yeah, the work we've been doing with women has always existed. And. But I do think it's especially important right now. In fact, the rate of women being incarcerated, even though they're a much smaller number percentage of the total prison population, the rate at which they're growing has actually been among the fastest growing populations in prison. And actually, it was really that fact that motivated some dear partners of ours, the Green family, who own Hobby Lobby, their state in particular where they live in Oklahoma. Not only is this the rate of women growing so quickly, in particular, Oklahoma was among the worst offenders for a while. And so they said, we want to do something in our backyard. And so we went from having next to no programming in Oklahoma to being in over a dozen prisons today, including several women's prisons. And there's a prison called Mabel Bassett in Oklahoma just outside of Oklahoma City. That's one of my favorites today. Take people to. Because inside you'll find not only our Prison Fellowship Academy, we've had so many graduates from Oklahoma Corrections go through the Warden Exchange, but there's also an alumni program called Lead Prison Fellowship Lead, where these women who have graduated from our program are becoming leaders and change agents in the prison and for. For those who get to go home after they leave as well. And they're doing things like community service projects where. And they're writing cards to the women who, you know, are in solitary. They're scrubbing down the kitchen with no one asking them to do that. And they'll have corrections officers ask them, you know, why? Why are you doing this? And they'll share, you know, because this is my community, and I. I want to have a positive role in my community. And so I think women are a powerful source of being change agents. And we love the programs that we get to have in women's prisons in particular.

B (35:35)

Well, I got a few more questions as we begin to wrap up, but you mentioned earlier that we don't want to be judged by the worst day of our life. I think it's the civil rights lawyer and the author of Just Mercy, Bryan Stevenson, who said that each one of us is more than the worst thing that we've ever done, or something along those lines.

A (36:01)

That's right.

B (36:02)

What does that mean to you? And how should those listening, any of us listening, think about that as we continue to look at what you're trying to do through Prison Fellowship?

A (36:15)

Yeah, when you think about, if you really try and visualize worst choice I've ever made, thing I'm most ashamed of, for most of the people I meet in prison, it's what. It's why they came to prison is that thing. And imagine having that attached to you. Imagine having to explain it on every job interview. And if we can put ourselves in those shoes and just realize, man, I wouldn't want the worst thing I've ever done to be on my name tag. Right? I wouldn't want that to be what defines my identity. And for me as a Christian, I think that my identity is defined as a child of God. And I want the identity of those who have been impacted by the justice system to likewise be identified as children of God. And so that's why prison Fellowship in 2017, we started raising awareness about the barriers people face, especially post release, to housing, employment, just the general stigma they face. And we've asked for people to start celebrating April as Second Chance Month. We have churches across the country this April who are hosting Second Chance Sundays speaking, a message of redemption. And we just ask you to consider, you know, how could your church be a place of welcome for those who are coming home? If you're a business owner, Second Chance hiring has. Has really grown in the last decade, I would say. And a lot of that's because there's actually studies showing that people who have a criminal record are less likely to leave their job. They're better workers, and so they've got something to prove. Right. So how might you be able to extend a Second Chance?

B (37:58)

All right. Well, toward that end. So we walked through the story, the 50 year story of Prison Fellowship, its original vision and mission. But it sounds like you're taking things more broadly into communities, into public policy. Just as you mentioned with Second Chances, what's your kind of big, bold, hairy, audacious goal for the future? What's your big vision that you're bringing? Because this is the Going Big podcast. Heather, what would you like to see in the next phase of Prison Fellowship's long history?

A (38:37)

Well, our vision, Kevin, is revival of the church inside and outside prison to bring justice, mercy and hope to our culture. And I got the chance to present this to our board as part of my interview process. And then we actually voted on our new mission and vision statement. And it's a big, bold claim because we're basically saying, hey, we're not just about bringing the hope of the gospel to people in prison. We are saying that people in prison have a role to play. And in reviving the church in America. And I. I believe that, Kevin. I really do. Every time I can see a church experience, the faith, the community, the transparency, the gratitude, the worship that I see in prison, it is a revival of that church outside that spills over. And so I think Prison Fellowship's mission and vision has expanded not just to engaging communities, to. To help in prison, but actually leveraging the church inside to engage all of us and be revived in our own faith.

B (39:50)

Wow. Okay. Well, that's going big. But here's a question. What's easier? Changing laws in these state capitals or changing people's hearts in the pews?

A (40:03)

I think, you know, neither one of those lanes is. Is an easy bet. They are both very tough to do, and it takes years and years to pass legislation. Sometimes decades. Right. I've been part of those long hauls. But also the same can be true for people just in the general community changing their hearts and minds. But what I will tell you, Kevin, is I think the way to change, whether it's laws or people's hearts and minds, tends to be the same in this space. Let me take you to prison. If I can bring you to prison and you can sit down with those. Them that you have in your mind, you are going to be in for a surprise, and it's going to be a good one. And so the more often we can bring lawmakers, people attending church, neighbors into prison to see people as people, to hear their stories, the more often I have seen laws change, hearts and minds change.

B (41:04)

Well, you're very positive. Don't you ever get discouraged? I mean, and I'm actually very serious, not just in terms of legislation and some of these other things, but, I mean, when you go into a prison and you hear these heartbreaking stories about separation and many people who, you know, quite reasonably have lost a lot of hope, does that discourage you or does that strengthen your faith?

A (41:31)

Yeah, you know, it can be a bit of both, depending on the day. Right. Like, even, you know, Turtle shared with me that her dream job would be to be an academy manager, and, you know, ended up asking her, you know, if she had a date to get out. And that's when she told me, actually, you know, I'm probably here for life. And so just to kind of see, like, her shoulders hang with that. Right. Because she'd be an amazing prison fellowship academy manager, and maybe God will make a way for that to happen. But those. There are those realities you have to check, and that weigh heavy, and not just for me, but I think about the families, right, that are waiting for that person, their loved one to get out. She has a daughter. She has grand. A grandson. But you know what? She is doing remarkable things. And There's a reason 10 other people talked about her story that day, because she, she is weaving into their story and she is making an impact in her community. Her community happens to be in prison, and who knows how long that will continue to be her community. But that definitely strengthens my faith because I can see how God can use those we've forgotten, those considered outcasts by our culture. That's who God is ready to use. And they're actually the most ready to be used. And what God is doing with people who are in prison who have a criminal record is truly remarkable.

B (42:56)

You're here. Well, you know, you shared that heartbreaking little story about those two little girls sleeping, cuddled up in a wheelbarrow. But to these millions who were behind bars, they can't go home tonight. For those who are touched by this conversation today and by what you're doing or inspired by the vision that you're casting, what can they do if they'd like to get more involved with Prison Fellowship?

A (43:27)

Yes. So many ways to get involved. I would encourage anyone listening if your heart's touched by, by what we've talked about today. If you're interested in getting more information, come to prisonfellowship.org there's opportunities to volunteer in prison, opportunities to get involved with Prison Fellowship Angel Tree, which serves children of the incarcerated. It's actually usually our biggest entree point for church's involvement and individuals involvement is to buy a gift on behalf of an incarcerated mom or dad. And with your church, be able to deliver that to that child. We also have opportunities for people to engage in bringing the hope of the gospel to the public square as volunteering as a justice ambassador. And, you know, we encourage you to follow along with Prison Fellowship on social media. Would love to share these stories and find a way for you to step into this space of visiting those in prison, remembering those in prison.

B (44:20)

All right, well, thank you. Here's the closing question for you. And it's similar to what I ask all of our guests, but it's a little different given the role that you're in and the timing of this episode. And first of all, as you say, April is second chance month, but we're celebrating Easter. And as I say, it's a tough thing. Redemption, forgiveness is not easy. And radical forgiveness that Jesus taught us about is even tougher. But to anybody who's listening around the world, whether in the United States or wherever we have listeners all over the world and wherever they may be, maybe they have a family member who is incarcerated or is facing some kind of challenges in any of this space. How would you encourage us to think about sort of finding our gift as you have and serving in a way that we can go big by helping improve the lives of others?

A (45:27)

Love that question. And it makes me think of my all time favorite quote from Chuck Colson. He says my greatest humiliation being sent to prison when was actually the beginning of God's greatest use in my life. He chose the one thing I could not glory for. His glory. And so if you're listening today and you're feeling distraught, you've, you felt like you've made choices in your life that you can't come back from, maybe this is just the beginning of your story. Because guess what? God is most glorified when we can't take any credit. And so it's your time to step into this now.

B (46:05)

Heather Rice minus Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you're doing at present. Fellowship through your very inspiring, your leadership and happy Easter.

A (46:13)

Happy Easter. Kevin. Thank you so much.

B (46:16)

Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.