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Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big with John Yates III: Faith, Leadership, and the Digital Age
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- [00:02]
Reverend John Yates III
What's most complex for leading a church today and what's different compared to earlier ages is just the digital world, the technological revolution that we've been through really over the last dozen years, since people began to carry smartphones in their pockets. I think that the social, cultural change we're going through, I think it is a similar seismic event as Gutenberg and the printing press. I think that the shift to digital world is. It's not just that we have new tools. It is that we have tools that are shaping our humanity. And I think that we in the church, just like everyone in society, we're trying to figure out what in the world is this technological revolution doing to us as human beings.
- [01:05]
Kevin Gentry
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to life. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube, or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big.
- [01:48]
Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and I'm pleased to have as my guest today the Reverend John Yates iii, who is a pastor, a writer, and a thoughtful voice in today's church. He also happens to be the son of the Reverend John Yates. Reverend John Yates ii, who many listeners will recall was a very popular guest this past summer on the Going Big podcast. John Yates III, or JY3, as many of his family and friends know him, has gone big in a way that I think will be really interesting for you today. And that is, rather than pursue effort through big fame or a platform, it's been through a lot of thoughtfulness and conviction and depth. And in my judgment, he's ideal for Going Big because of the way he has approached his work in a very quiet and thoughtful manner. And I think you're gonna be very encouraged by this conversation today. And I'm just really pleased. John, it's great to have you here on the podcast today.
- [03:00]
Reverend John Yates III
Thank you for having me. It's really fun. A pleasure to follow in my dad's footsteps. So thank you.
- [03:06]
Kevin Gentry
Well, we're going to have a good time in this conversation. Today, I'm quite confident. And just to kick things off with respect to how I think that you've gone big through depth and thoughtfulness, how would you say you've gone big with respect to a life devoted to your faith and how you've tried to apply the gifts that God has given you?
- [03:32]
Reverend John Yates III
Thank you. I. It's a great question, I have to say. You know, when you first reached out and shared the. Invited me to be on the podcast and shared the name, I was like, going big. I think he's got the wrong guy. This, like, does he really want me on this podcast?
- [03:46]
Kevin Gentry
I have.
- [03:46]
Reverend John Yates III
I haven't really gone big. And in fact, I've kind of like, tried. Tried to do other things. And so I think, you know, when I think about this idea of going big, I really do think of. Of going deep, and I think about wanting to not so much build a platform for anything, but to lay a foundation. And so the way I think about my ministry through the local church, it's all about playing the long game, setting goals that are only reachable over 10, 20, 30 years. It's about not so much building a platform, but. But about laying a foundation. Because one of the things that I think is so interesting is that a platform is stable enough for, like, one person to stand on. But if you, if you build a foundation, then you can put as many people as you want on a. On a firm foundation. And, and the work of platforming begins to be the work platform mean other people, and so leveraging and empowering other people and their talents. And so I think the way I've. I've thought about the. The bigness of, of the ministry of the local church has to do with really building slowly and faithfully into people with the expectation that our lives will be transformed and we will. We will do something big over time together in this place, and that we'll send out people in ones and twos to a variety of other places to do that work of going big in their lives.
- [05:35]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I love the way that you've taken this, and this is what I had in mind. I will tell you that when I started the podcast, the idea was to showcase people who've cast a big, bold vision for change as a way to inspire us all to do something in a similar manner, kind of like John F. Kennedy's Moonshot or Martin Luther King's I have a Dream speech. But I started getting pushback from people said, well, you can go big in pursuing your gifts, but not necessarily in that same way. And we all want to learn how we can apply our gifts in a way that's meaningful to others. And so this is great. This is what I had in mind. So we'll see where this continues.
- [06:17]
Reverend John Yates III
Good, that's really encouraging. You didn't get the wrong guy then.
- [06:20]
Kevin Gentry
You didn't get the wrong guy then. Definitely did not get the wrong guy. But to help set that stage a little bit more, want our audience to know a little bit more about you. So my first question about you is. Tell us a little bit about today. You are the rector of Holy Trinity Anglican Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. What does that mean? Tell us just a little bit about the church today, what you do. And then we are going to pivot back to the early days and take you through the journey to where you are today.
- [06:54]
Reverend John Yates III
That's great. Thank you. So I'm rector of Holy Trinity. We, I'm an Anglican. It's an Anglican church. We have all these like ancient terms for things. Rector just means senior pastor. And it comes from the Latin rectus, meaning straight. It's my, it's my role as part of my spiritual authority and ministry to keep the church, this local body of believers on the straight line of the gospel. And so I've been here for 15 years in this role and I've loved it. It's a special vocation leading a local community and it's a great one. I have the privilege of weekend and a week out leading a group of people in worship, preaching from scripture, discipling, counseling, you name it. We're a church of about 500 some people on a Sunday morning, sort of 800 active members. It's a staff of 17 or 18, mostly full time, some part time. And so I've, I've learned to sort of run a small business alongside leading people in worship, preaching and teaching. And it's a great vocation.
- [08:10]
Kevin Gentry
Wow, thank you. Well, we're going to come back to that a little bit more. Yeah, present day. But to take us back a little bit, as I noted, your dad, Reverend John Yates, nationally known, nationally prominent, influential in the renewal movement, not only in the Anglican Church, but I would say in the broader Christian community. The false church Anglican became a very influential place. How was it that growing up and being that preacher's kid, and how did you end up deciding to go into ministry as a result?
- [08:50]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah, it's not, it's not a family business that people tend to go into. You grow up with it and most people honestly kind of kind of run from it. So I, I grew up so When I was a kid, my dad was leading this local church, but I didn't really think of him as a big deal. And I think that the reality is at that point, he wasn't a particularly big deal outside the confines of that Northern Virginia community. He came in and the very end of the 1970s, took over a historic church and just began leading faithfully and over what turned out to be a nearly 40 year ministry. And I think I was really shaped as a kid by just regular weekly church attendance. And I did. I grew up kind of in the fishbowl on display. And so being now and as, as a, as a grown man, I'm in my early 50s. Being in the public eye has just been a normal part of my life. And that's kind of a strange thing, and it can. It really can mess with your head. But it was a great. It was great preparation for the life I have now. So. But I always grew up knowing that my family was kind of on display, surprisingly not resenting that. And I think that's due to the way I saw my parents handle it. I grew up in a home where what I heard on Sunday, I saw on Monday. And that's an unbelievable gift, to have this model of integrity. And so I grew up thinking it was actually possible to lead a group of people, a local congregation, and to do so with integrity and faithfulness, because I saw it in action. And then as I grew older, I saw my dad gaining influence and being invited to enter into rooms where there was respect and authority given. But what I saw was that that was the fruit of faithfulness. Over time, integrity lived out in a deep community, in a local context. And so I saw him rise to influence just through simple day to day faithfulness.
- [11:24]
Kevin Gentry
Well, let's unpack that a little bit more. And that's what also intrigues me. So you're right in interviewing your dad. And I've heard him tell the stories before. And by the way, you know, my wife and I, our family, so many of our friends, just have such enormous respect and admiration for both your parents, for both John and Susan Yates. But when he started, when they were called to the church, it was a small, dying place. I don't know how much that may be harsh, but it was a different place. I don't know how much you remember it then, but it gradually grew in that way. But you've chosen, as you say, to focus on depth. So you're not necessarily replicating the model of the Falls Church today, but are you approaching it in the same way that your dad did in the late 1970s.
- [12:13]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah, that's, that's. I think it's a very perceptive question that, that kind of answers itself in a way. I do, I do think I'm, I'm going about local church ministry in a way that I saw it modeled and I saw it modeled in my dad. I, I've seen it modeled in a few other heroes. I imagine. We'll talk about them in a bit. But you're right, you're right. I think because I've. My. The model I have in my mind for a quote unquote successful local church ministry is. It's this picture of week to week faithful preaching of God's word. The, the, the careful stewardship of relationships with people over time. And it's, it's the prayerful trusting that God is at work in the background all the time, even when you, you don't necessarily see the fruit. And so, yeah, I think, I think that through the decades of the 80s and the 90s, when I was a kid at home and then leaving home, I just watched that weekend and week out that faithful, steady, one foot in front of the other approach to leadership, both personal and congregational and also institutional.
- [13:36]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I want to draw out some lessons from that too, and I've tried to draw that out from your dad, but other. Those who followed after him, like Sam Ferguson and Dan Morata and others, I think there's just so much wisdom that applies to all of us and each of us trying to apply the gifts that the Lord has given us. Well, I want to go a little bit more into your growing up for better, for worse. I reached out to your sister to get insights on you.
- [14:04]
Reverend John Yates III
That's dangerous.
- [14:05]
Kevin Gentry
Yes. Reached out to Allison, your older sister. I know you're a family of five kids and, and, but my wife suggested, because, you know, if you really want to ask a sibling, they're the best way to find out. So Allison told me that you were kind of the cut up and the jokester in the family. You really had a gift for making people laugh and you were willing to kind of look ridiculous in order to do that. Just a lot of energy in that way. Just tell us a little bit more about who JY3 is growing up and then we'll get more into the formation through some of those other quiet forces.
- [14:42]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah, so that's actually a huge compliment coming from a sibling to say that, that, that I was, that she thought I was the funny one, that that's how I'm going to interpret what you just said that she thinks I'm the funny one. I just. And it's still very much today. I see, I see the hilarity and the absurdity of human behavior, and it tickles me and I'm happy to point it out. And this is, this can actually kind of get you into trouble in the pulpit. So I'm actually pretty disciplined in what I say from up, up front at church, but I guess I've always thought that people are wonderful and delightful and odd, and we all are. And so to be, to be the kid who's kind of pointing that out regularly just kind of was. Felt like part of my vocation. And then for whatever reason, I lack. I lack a certain degree of social shame. So from an early age, I was willing to dress up in ridiculous outfits. I still have a collection of wigs and dress up clothes that were. I wore them a lot when my kids were little and, and to. And they will come out sometimes, occasionally still today when I need to surprise someone. So, yeah, there's. I once heard a theologian say something that I loved. He said, the higher your Christology, the better your sense of humor. And what he meant was that the greater trust you have in the lordship of Christ over all things, the more you realize he carries the burden for everything and the lighter your heart becomes and your ability to be light hearted with yourself and with the world and with those close to you rises. And I've sort of taken that as a secret motto over the years.
- [16:45]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that is awesome. And obviously it runs, I think, counter to the image that many of us have of a sort of a sober clergyman. And so kudos to you.
- [16:55]
Reverend John Yates III
I just outed myself.
- [16:57]
Kevin Gentry
Terrible.
- [16:59]
Well, your. Your parents have a little bit of that too, so maybe that's.
- [17:03]
Reverend John Yates III
They do, they do. There are far too many pictures of my parents wearing wigs.
- [17:10]
Kevin Gentry
And sometimes they age well. It just depends how they look back in time. All right, so tell us a little bit about the cross country trip that you took as a teenager. Allison reminded me of that. If I recall correctly, I heard your dad speak, maybe on the podcast, about how your parents were a little uncertain of their teenage son with this proposition. But they listened to the plan and it sounded like it was based in some element of reality. So tell us about that and how that influenced your thinking.
- [17:42]
Reverend John Yates III
So I tagged along on a cross country bicycle trip that my brother organized with two of his best friends. And it was a coast of Oregon, the coast of Virginia, cycling trip. So it's about 4,000 miles. When you added it all up. And I have no idea how these three 19 year olds convince their parents to allow them. I think part of the logic was, well, if we invite John, older brother, 20, 21, to come along, he's responsible. Could we go? I think that's what happened. As it turns out, I was only able to go for a month, so I think I was out there for 30, 31 days. But I joined them in central Kansas and cycled across the Ozarks and the Appalachians, the Blue Ridge down to the coast of Virginia. So I put in like 1800 miles. But it's always felt like I was playing second fiddle to these other three who did close to 4000.
- [18:43]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. All right, well, I'm sure there's some risk taking stories in here that we can pull out a little bit later. But let's move ahead to your time with John Stott. You studied, worked with him for a number of years. I don't know whether many people know, I did not know until recently the influence that John Stott had. Probably next to Billy Graham, the most influential evangelical leader in the 20th century, what was it like getting to work alongside him, study from him, learn from him? And how did that influence your call to ministry?
- [19:23]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah. So, John. So I mean, just to go along with what you were saying, I think it was in 2005, Time magazine named him one of the hundred most influential people in the world. In 2004, David Brooks described him as the Evangelical Pope in the New York Times. And I think those are fairly accurate representations. So I, I had this incredible invitation to go work for John as his study assistant. I graduated from the University of Virginia in 1996 and biked halfway across the country and then flew to London to work for John. And I spent three years as his study assistant. And it was a job where basically everything imaginable was in the job description. So I did everything from buying replacement razor blade to cooking, helping him host dinner parties, to writing letters, doing research, helping draft revisions to one of his books. It was an incredible experience, just really sitting at the feet of a godly older pastor theologian who had this global influence. And here I was, I was 21 when I started and had no idea either the privilege of the experience or the just the extent to which I would learn and grow.
- [20:56]
Kevin Gentry
Well, tell us a little bit about that. And I mean, obviously, what did he teach you? Yeah, but what did you learn? Because again, this is somebody who quietly, thoughtfully went deep and he was not flashy. People did not know about his impact, frankly, until sort of Later. So what, what did you learn from that, that influenced your own approach?
- [21:22]
Reverend John Yates III
I, I just, I learned a ton. I'll tell you. My, my very first day of work, I, I arrived and my, my, my office was actually his bedroom. He lived in this tiny little flat in central London on three stories. You went in, his secretary, Francis Whitehead had an office. You went up the stairs to his bedroom where I had a desk. You went up another set of stairs to his study, kind of dining area, tiny kitchen. So I go into his bedroom, my office the first morning, and there's this handwritten manuscript on the, on the desk with a note that says here's an interview on singleness for a book that's going to be published in America. I would love your, your feedback. So I dutifully read this manuscript. I, I commented on some anglicisms that were new to me that I wasn't sure an American audience would understand. I, I, I suggested some things he might want to add. I, I, you know, just sort of totally naive, 21 year old thinking that like my input actually was important. The next morning I come to work and there's this handwritten manuscript on, on the desk and there's a post it note on top that says what do you think now question mark? And I, and I start reading and, and it's the same manuscript that's just been handwritten over. He was, he wrote everything by hand and he had made every change I suggested. He had added material, he had taken out words. And honestly my reaction was oh no, I like what I think, how I think what I say matters. I'm not qualified for this. And I've told this story in many places, I've written about it. But it's an example of John's humility, his, his true profound humility. And it's a great example of the kind of man he was. So also, also that first week we sat down for kind of an introductory, like here's your job meeting. And, and he said to me something that kind of surprised me, but the wisdom of it has stuck with me over the years. He said JY that became my name in the office because there could not be two johns in that office. And he obviously had the rights in the name. I became JY and he said, JY, you need to understand that I am not your mentor. You are not here to be mentored. But if you pay attention, you'll learn everything you can possibly learn. In other words, what he was saying was watch and learn. I'm not going to try to tell you what I'm doing. But I promise you I'm going to fulfill my job to the best of my ability. And you will then by watching, learn. And he was right. And I watched him really carefully for three years and rarely did he. Rarely did he engage in like, teachable moments or, hey, pay attention. You're going to learn something here. He just lived it out and the influence on me was profound.
- [25:00]
Kevin Gentry
Well, what can we, those listening, take away from this? I'm already detecting a couple things. I mean, you talked about how the influence of your father was that when you saw in church and at the pulpit was the same that you saw at home. It sounds to me you're saying something similar about John. Stop. But you're also talking about this quiet humility. Not the need for flash, but the importance on thoughtfulness, on perhaps discernment, really just trying to understand and apply. What did you learn from it and what can we take away from this?
- [25:39]
Reverend John Yates III
So I think when it comes to men. So men, let's just start with mentoring specifically. What John did is he invited me to walk next to him and sometimes I was invited to have a speaking role. Often I was invited just to. To be there. But the, the privilege of going into the room with the principal and being able to absorb, to watch him work, I just learned a ton. So I would just say for the, for those of you listening who are in these positions of authority, responsibility and power, you don't. I think we often feel pressured to take teachable moments or to instruct as we're trying to raise people up. But the most powerful thing we can do is to do our job exceptionally well and invite young people who wouldn't be in the room otherwise to be in the room with us to watch. So that's just a note on mentoring, I would say thanks for sharing that, by the way.
- [26:49]
Kevin Gentry
Mentoring has been something that has really risen to the top in these interviews. And we're all, all trying to figure out, is there just like one way, is there just one thing we should do? But it's very complex and just about how you absorb and listen and seek out and offer to others. I mean, the role of the mentor, the role of the mentee, how explicit is it? I just interviewed Father Robert Sirico and he said he never looked at it as like seeking a mentor. He was just, they were a friend, but he learned so much in the process from them. This is great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
- [27:30]
Reverend John Yates III
And I'll just say that John invited me into his life and it was a Particular special relationship, set of circumstances. He was in his 70, early 70s at the time. Didn't have immediate family, was never married, didn't have kids. So I was he. I was able to have access to him in every part of his life. And just having that access as a young man seeking to learn from an older man was invaluable. And I think, I think it, you know, now that I'm. I'm in my 50s, not my 70s, but now that I'm on the other side, I see the benefit for me of accountability. Inviting people into my life requires me to have integrity and to be accountable. And it's just a wonderful safeguard for me. There's another piece that I'll share, which I think is probably underappreciated, is that Even in his 70s, John was very curious and it. I related to his humility that he always was. Wanted to know what other people thought. So when he was working through a difficult theological issue or if a really important book came out, he would just gather an ad hoc reading group and he would gather people together for a discussion and he, he would typically cheer the discussion, but pretty much all he would do would be to ask questions. So here is the smartest man in the room, the most thoughtful man in the room, typically almost never saying, here's what I think. He was always asking, what do you think? What about this? How about this? Have you considered this? And that. I took a lot from just this. Staying curious, staying hungry, realizing you don't know the answers, listening more than you're speaking. All of these things, I don't know if I do them as well, but I've got a great standard to try to meet.
- [29:53]
Kevin Gentry
That's great. Thank you. Thank you. This is, I think, very helpful for all of us. I interviewed friend, his name is Tom Smith. He's very successful in the investment world. He's 97 and he has the most unusual intellectual curiosity. And for 97, it's just, it's. It just blows me away about how constantly he's asking questions and trying to understand and it should be a calling for all of us, I guess.
- [30:21]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah, that's great.
- [30:23]
Kevin Gentry
Well, well, speaking of calling, how did you determine that you were being called into ministry, if that's what happened? And how did you understand what your calling was with respect to your gifts? This is another thing we all are challenged by. Many of us get well into later years saying, I still don't know what my calling is. I still don't know. My gifts are. How did you tackle that?
- [30:55]
Reverend John Yates III
So the first real clear sign of calling came in middle school when I just never grew and, and my aspirations to be an NFL quarterback were crushed. So it was forever till I hit puberty. And so I was like, I mean, I thought that was going to be my calling. It wasn't. It was really good to have that taken out. You know, very early on when I was in college, I was heavily involved with the ministry called Young Life. And as I was involved in that ministry, I came to realize that I had gifts for leading people, for teaching and I had a, just a passion for, for bringing the Bible to life and for taking this, this text and drawing people into it and put, placing the text into their lives. But I realized I didn't really want to do youth ministry. I wanted to minister to my peers, to those older, to those younger. And so that began to form in me a sense of call towards pastoral ministry. But then something happened in my last year of college, which is I developed a friendship with a professor named James Hunter. And James is a noted sociologist and he had a pattern of just taking undergrads under his wing, spending time with them. He allowed me to take his first year graduate seminar all during my fourth year at uva. And what happened was I had very practical hands on experience of ministry. I'd always been good at school, but I experienced what I can only call sort of an intellectual and theological awakening. And James just opened the door to big ideas and questions. And so I had this sense of I've got these gifts, I've got these passions, these things I love. I see a place where I can serve. This all seems to point to the church. But then I got this intellectual curiosity. I don't know how that fits. I went to work for John Stott for three years and that intellectual curiosity grew and grew and grew. And I ended up spending the next seven years in school. And I think after working for John. So the. My. For our first seven years of marriage I was a student and had basically no income. But what the challenging point for me vocationally was. I saw the academy was this option and parish ministry was this option the local church or the university. And I wondered. I don't think I'm necessarily going to follow a normal path in either one. I think my, my location is the local church, but I wonder if I can bring the insights and values of, of high level academic study into the church. And I, I wrestled with him. I called in the academy and, and I quickly figured out no. But I ended up being in school and staying in school ended up doing Ph.D. because I, I had a sense that I had a calling to pastoral ministry, but with a distinct edge as a sort of a scholar pastor or a pastor theologian.
- [34:41]
Kevin Gentry
Were there, and maybe you're saying this, but were there two or three priorities or convictions that kind of guided you and have guided you and continue to guide you.
- [34:54]
Reverend John Yates III
In terms of thinking about vocation?
- [34:56]
Kevin Gentry
And I mean your life generally. But you so integrated your, your, I mean, you, you in my judge, a very fully integrated life. You're not living in different silos or anything like that. It all comes together.
- [35:12]
Reverend John Yates III
I think. I knew that Scripture was going to be key to my vocation. And so I, when I was thinking about a PhD, I'm more naturally wired to think as a theologian, sort of topically, systematically, but because I saw my, my location, my social location for my vocation as being the local church, the primary minister, the primary ministry of a local pastor comes through preaching and teaching. And so I was headed towards doing a PhD in theology. But in the process of praying, through applying and what my goals were, I actually switched to biblical studies, specifically in New Testament, because I wanted to keep Scripture at the center of my life and discipline. So that was one, one kind of very practical conviction about how I shaped my studies and preparation for my ministry. The other thing, I think what another conviction would be doing the work in community. So I've been a part of a group called the center for Pastor Theologians. And it's a group that started by a small group of us. Many of us had gone to Cambridge together, other guys from other backgrounds, we came together. We all had PhDs in biblical studies or theology or church history, but we were all trying to serve within local churches. And so we, we actually began to vocationally counsel one another out of our shared ignorance and experience, asking together, what does it mean to we have this weird vocation? Pastor, theologian? What, what is this? How do we do this? We don't know. Let's bring in older men that we think are exemplars that we want to follow. Anyway, this, this, we continue to meet. We began meeting, I think, in about 2007, 2008. And I was just with a group of these guys a couple months ago. So we continue to get together. So I would say exploring vocation in community over time with a cohort of peers has been incredibly value for me, valuable for me and my own development just as a minister, as a person.
- [37:50]
Kevin Gentry
What about any particularly big challenges or setbacks? I mean, you mentioned sort of the realization growing up that you weren't going to be that quite quarterback. I know that. Your sister reminded me that you're very athletic. She also reminded me that you're very academic and intellectual. She's very generous in her. Wow, this is great.
- [38:10]
Reverend John Yates III
I really owe her.
- [38:11]
Kevin Gentry
We're recording this and now you can preserve it forever. But any particular setbacks or challenges that influenced you as well? I do have to say, John, that you know, what we all went through with respect to the fall church, leaving the Episcopal Church and then losing the property, which your dad goes through in detail in the interview I had with him. I will never forget that final service and maybe I was ushering or something, but your family, you all were all seated right there in the middle in the front. You all came to that final service and that was something. And to have overcome all that was no small, small thing. So. But, but how about, how about you anything that. That influenced or shaped you further.
- [39:05]
Reverend John Yates III
In terms of crisis or challenge in particular? Yeah, it's mercifully I've yet to experience that kind of conflict within the church. I have not, not been sued, haven't lost a church building, haven't had to kind of start over that may come. I hope not. So I feel like I've been spared. But I think because I as a young man watched my father endure some hard things, I was prepared. That boy, full time vocational ministry in the local church is not a cakewalk. It's a, it's a particular vocation where to lead is to suffer. And, and all leadership in one way or another is, is a form of suffering if you're doing it well. But I learned that from watching him. And so I think it was really helpful in setting expectations for me. But hey, look, if you're going to do this and you're going to be serious about it, you need to be prepared. I will say the pandemic Covid was really hard with everything going on socially and culturally and just trying to care for a community when no one really knew what reality was. That was a very hard season of ministry. A lot of peers decided to get out of church leadership. But again, I think because I, I had a cohort of friends and brothers, different groups that I've been involved with for two decades or more. I felt like I was able to sort of navigate with, with these friends. So I mean you, you mentioned Dan Morata and Sam Ferguson who I think have been on the podcast. We actually early on in Covid Dan may have shared this story. We ended up deciding to all preach through the Lord's Prayer Together and to get on a weekly zoom call in order to workshop our material together, just to help each other navigate preaching in that season and to encourage each other. And so that was really meaningful.
- [41:31]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. Well, I remember that sermon series from Sam, but now I know the to the rest of the story.
- [41:36]
Reverend John Yates III
Dan went on to use all of our material to write a book, so it worked out great. Wow.
- [41:42]
Kevin Gentry
Well, speak to, if you would. And again, for the benefit of those listening, what is it like to lead a church today in the United States? You're in a city in Raleigh in Northern Virginia, I wouldn't say. I mean, we're not in Birmingham. We're not in an area where it's naturally much more supportive of the Christian faith. I even wonder what it must have been like growing up, you know, in the Northern Virginia public schools, being the son of a preacher. What is it like today in our world, in our culture, to lead a church?
- [42:25]
Reverend John Yates III
So I think church leadership really has a local flavor. As you pointed out, Northern Virginia versus Birmingham, Alabama versus Raleigh, North Carolina are all quite different social locations. The dominant cultures are different. So there are different challenges. I do think, you know, that the sort of secular, secularizing trend in the western world is real. And it doesn't matter whether you're in Birmingham, Alabama or Washington, D.C. the trend lines are the same. I think probably what's most, what's most complex for leading a church today and what's different compared to earlier ages is just the digital world. The technological revolution that we've been through really over the last dozen years since people began to carry smartphones in their pockets. I, I think that the social, cultural change we're going through, I think it's, I think it is a similar seismic event as Gutenberg and the printing press. I think that this, the shift to, to digital world is, it's, it's not just that we have new tools. It is that we have tools that are shaping our humanity. And I think that we in the church, just like everyone in society, we're trying to figure out what in the world is this technological revolution doing to us as human beings and how is it opening new doors for the gospel to connect with people, but also like, what is it doing to people's ability to, for example, listen to a 25 minute sermon? You can listen to this podcast while you're exercising, you can press pause to, to make a cup of coffee. You know, a sermon is a totally different event and it's increasingly odd when you think about the world we live in. So this digital revolution I think is probably the most challenging, perplexing, interesting problem. It's just the reality we live in.
- [44:48]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I'm going to be interviewing Arthur Brooks soon, and I hope to have John Haidt. There's so much to dig into about this. And at the Falls Church Anglican, Justin early spoke recently about dealing some of this. It's a great talk and I've tried to follow this advice. I do not start the day looking at my phone until I've read Scripture and entered into prayer. And it's a habit I'm trying to build. I'm into two weeks of this, but it's a lot better than the alternative I have found. And it's just one small, small step. But that's great.
- [45:23]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah. Each of those men have such fascinating insights into our current cultural moment, each from a different perspective. So that's great. Yeah, we. I'm working through Justin's book with a group of guys here at the church, and we're trying to follow these habits and practices as well.
- [45:48]
Kevin Gentry
Well, Isaiah Brooms hosted him and did a fantastic job in the conversation. It was really one of the better talks I've ever heard.
- [45:54]
Reverend John Yates III
That's great.
- [45:55]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah, really very, very good. Well, sadly, I'm going to have to start drawing this to a close. I have two kind of closing questions. But before that, we're about to enter the season of Lent. We'll be releasing this episode just before Ash Wednesday. Tell us if you would put your clerical collar on, give us some advice about how those listening wherever we may be in our faith journey, those that may be seekers or maybe agnostic or maybe deeply faithful, how would you just share that? We maybe could even go big in our faith over the next several weeks leading up to Easter. Yeah. So easy question.
- [46:40]
Reverend John Yates III
So, yeah, the season of Lent begins on Ash Wednesday. So, and Ash Wednesday is this day where many Christians around the world will gather for worship. And one of the things that, in some churches that will happen is that folks will receive the sign of the cross on their forehead with ashes. And we do this at our church here. And when people come forward to receive the ashes, we, the clergy, we will say, remember that you are dust, and to dust you shall return. Turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ. So there is no more powerful moment in the, in the year pastorally than, than saying this, looking someone in the eye. Remember that you're dust, and to dust you shall return. And I share that because I think the, the way you go big in your personal life, professional life, etc, is, is by dealing with the big questions of life, if, if you ignore the big questions of life, you will skate along the surface. But what Lent does is it shoves this big question in front of us, which is, what, how are you going to handle your mortality? How you, you are going to die? How are you thinking about that? How are you preparing for that? And so I think what Lent does, it asks this super awkward question of us and forces us to address these big questions of life. And so I love that about the season. It forces us to be honest with ourselves. And this is the great thing, I think that the gospel message is potently honest. Honest about the human condition, honest about the challenges we face, and also honest about what God has done to redeem. So all of that kind of bubbles up during the season of Lent.
- [49:02]
Kevin Gentry
Wow, thank you. That was pretty well delivered. I'm glad I asked an effective preacher and pastor to share that at this moment. Thank you. All right, so the final two questions I almost always ask, and that is first, looking back on a younger version of yourself, maybe the cross country bicyclist, maybe first days of John Stott, maybe back in high school or whenever, what would you tell that younger version of yourself based on what you now know to do any differently, obviously is a way that we're all thinking through in our lives, how we might think about things in a different manner after a little bit of experience and wisdom.
- [49:44]
Reverend John Yates III
You know, I think I would say be patient, play the long game. Listen carefully, watch closely. I think this is how I'm trying to live my life now. And I, I would love to go back to my 19, 20, 21 year old self and just say, hey, these are practices to put in place now that over time will just reap incredible fruitfulness as you, as you grow and mature in the decades to come. So I think that there's probably a lot more I would say to my younger self. Like don't, like, probably best not to dream about being Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana or Joe Theisman. Don't waste time. But those are great childhood dreams indeed.
- [50:44]
Kevin Gentry
All right, awesome. Marque. The final question is the going big question for anyone listening around the world. How just would you think, suggest based on your own application of your gifts, your calling, your life, how would you suggest we all think about going big in our lives?
- [51:04]
Reverend John Yates III
Yeah. So I think, and this actually, it really fits, I think with the way you've led this conversation and some of the things I've shared already. And this may seem like an odd answer, I would say as you think about going Big, call an older friend that you really respect and take them out to lunch and just ask questions. Because often when we. When we think about how can I make an impact? What. What difference can I make? How do I go big? We. Our thoughts turn inward. And the reality is we've just. We just have limited creativity and to. To eagerly interrogate in the friendliest possible manner an older man or woman whom you respect. Maybe you know them well, maybe you've just watched them from a distance, but to find out how they kind of blossomed as a mature person, oh, man, that opens so many doors for thinking about yourself and in. And it opens them in ways that are unexpected. So I would find that person, take them out to lunch, and then I take them out again or find another person. There's so much we can learn from those who've gone before us.
- [52:31]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that sounds like some pretty good advice, so thank you. All right, John Yates. John Yates III. Reverend John Yates. JY3. It's been a real treat having you today. I'm so glad you agreed to join us.
- [52:43]
Reverend John Yates III
Kevin, thank you for having me. It's been a real. A real pleasure.
- [52:47]
Kevin Gentry
All right. All the best to you.
- [52:48]
Reverend John Yates III
Thank you.
- [52:49]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word, and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources, and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.