Leading with Conviction: Emily Seidel on Building a Movement and Choosing to Go Big

Summary

Podcast Title: Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Episode: Leading with Conviction: Emily Seidel on Building a Movement and Choosing to Go Big
Release Date: March 31, 2025
Host: Kevin Gentry
Guest: Emily Seidel, President and CEO of Americans for Prosperity (AFP)

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1. Introduction to the Episode and Guest

In this compelling episode of Going Big! with Kevin Gentry, host Kevin Gentry welcomes Emily Seidel, the President and CEO of Americans for Prosperity (AFP). AFP is a prominent grassroots organization with over 4 million volunteer citizen advocates operating across all 50 states. Under Seidel's leadership, AFP has achieved significant milestones, including 300 policy victories in the past year alone. The conversation delves into the strategies AFP employs to mobilize citizens, influence public policy, and drive social change.

2. Understanding Americans for Prosperity (AFP)

Kevin Gentry introduces AFP as a substantial grassroots organization with a national presence, highlighting its extensive volunteer base and impactful voter engagement efforts:

"In the last election cycle, over 30 million households had their doors knocked on in terms of voter conversation. And perhaps most importantly, just last year, they attribute over 300 different policy wins across the country to their engagement." (02:15)

Emily Seidel further elaborates on AFP's mission:

"We just seek to expand freedom and opportunity so that every person can achieve his or her version of the American dream. And we do that through reaching and mobilizing citizens across the country to have their voices heard in the biggest public policy debates." (03:45)

3. The Role of Citizen Advocates

Gentry probes into the essence of being a "volunteer citizen advocate," a cornerstone of AFP's operations.

Emily Seidel explains:

"At its core, it's just somebody who sees a problem in their community and does something to solve it. It takes many forms—from making phone calls and educating neighbors to attending rallies and lobbying lawmakers directly." (04:43)

She emphasizes the cumulative power of individual actions in shaping public policy:

"It really does [make a difference]. ... When you have all these voices coming together, it impacts the decision-making process of elected officials." (06:13)

4. Major Policy Victories and Impact

When asked about AFP's most significant policy victories, Seidel acknowledges the breadth of their achievements over two decades but highlights specific examples:

"The passage of Act 10 reforms in Wisconsin and the elimination of corporate welfare in Florida are among our landmark victories." (09:48)

She also underscores AFP's broader impact beyond legislative wins:

"We're really working to change the way people think about the relationship between government and their individual life, which influences various aspects of public policy." (10:15)

5. The Overton Window and Shifting Policy Narratives

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the concept of the Overton Window—the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population.

Gentry seeks clarification:

"What is the Overton window and what does it mean to move the Overton window?" (15:34)

Seidel defines it as:

"The guardrails on what's possible in the way that people think about a piece of public policy. For example, government involvement in healthcare was once fringe but has become a baseline policy discussion." (15:45)

This shift allows previously radical ideas to enter mainstream discourse, facilitating policy changes.

6. Current Priority: Protecting the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act

The conversation shifts to AFP's immediate focus: the reauthorization of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.

Seidel highlights the urgency:

"Extending the tax cuts is our number one priority right now. If the tax cuts expire, the average American could face a $1,500 tax increase, with some states like Nevada seeing up to $3,500." (17:46)

She elaborates on the potential economic repercussions:

"This expiration could lead to tens of thousands of job losses across states, compounding the effects of ongoing inflation." (18:19)

7. AFP's Strategic Approach: Protect Prosperity Campaign

To address the tax cuts issue, AFP has launched the "Protect Prosperity" campaign, employing a multi-faceted strategy:

1. Mobilizing Grassroots Support:

   "We're activating people in key communities to hold members of Congress accountable and drive urgency for the legislation." (23:55)

2. Maintaining Coalition Unity:

   "We're working closely with Capitol Hill offices and coalition partners to prevent fractures within the Republican conference that could jeopardize the bill's passage." (24:10)

3. National Narrative Campaign:

   "Educating Americans about the stakes through digital and mass marketing to build public support for the extension." (25:48)

Seidel provides the campaign's online presence:

"Interested individuals can visit protectprosperity.com to get involved." (25:58)

8. Leadership Insights from Emily Seidel

Gentry delves into Seidel's leadership journey and her approach to managing a large organization.

Seidel shares her initial reluctance:

"When the board asked me to take this role, I had never knocked a door or organized a grassroots rally. I had to focus on leading myself first to add value before leading others." (29:53)

She emphasizes the importance of self-leadership:

"I had to understand what the team and organization needed and work to fill that gap before I could effectively lead the team." (30:00)

9. Balancing Competing Priorities

Managing a vast organization like AFP involves juggling numerous priorities. Seidel outlines AFP's approach:

"We balance federal versus state issues, short-term versus long-term goals, and education efforts versus immediate policy actions by understanding our resource constraints and optimizing decision-making." (32:47)

She highlights the significance of resource allocation:

"Our biggest constraint is people's time. We ensure that the time volunteers spend with us has the maximum impact by focusing on door-knocking and one-on-one conversations." (33:31)

10. Building Organizational Capability through Experimentation

AFP's commitment to maximizing effectiveness is evident in its experimental approach to resource allocation.

Seidel recounts:

"In 2014, we began experimenting to determine the most effective use of a volunteer's time—whether door-knocking or making phone calls—and have continued refining these strategies over the past decade." (34:17)

She describes AFP's "grassroots layered approach":

"Complementing one-on-one outreach with pieces of mail and digital ads to reinforce conversations ensures that messages stick in people's minds." (35:11)

11. Future Vision: Moving Towards a Tipping Point

Looking ahead, Seidel envisions AFP driving significant social and policy changes:

"We are at the precipice of a major shift in how people think about government policy. With increasing education reforms and regulatory changes at the state level, we're witnessing a tipping point for libertarian and pro-growth policies." (45:03)

She anticipates:

"Over the next five to ten years, AFP aims to harness this momentum to unleash policies that empower individuals and reduce governmental overreach across the nation." (47:00)

12. Personal Reflections and Advice

As the conversation winds down, Seidel offers personal insights rooted in her childhood experiences.

Reflecting on her past:

"I realized I was unwilling to take risks and missed opportunities because of my fear of failure. This realization pushes me to step out of my comfort zone, such as accepting the role at AFP despite uncertainty." (42:21)

Her advice for listeners:

"Learn from my childhood lessons—don't be afraid to fail. If you want to make an impact, engage with AFP in your community and be part of something bigger." (49:01)

13. Conclusion

Kevin Gentry wraps up the episode by summarizing ways listeners can get involved with AFP's initiatives:

• Volunteer Opportunities: Visit afpvolunteer.com to engage at the local level.
• Current Campaign: Support the "Protect Prosperity" campaign at protectprosperity.com.
• Additional Information: Explore americansforprosperity.org for more details.

Gentry encourages listeners to subscribe and engage with Going Big! for more inspiring stories and actionable insights.

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Notable Quotes:

• Emily Seidel on Overcoming Fear of Failure:

  "I look back and I think, what would I have tried, what would I have exposed myself to if I had not been so afraid of failure?" (00:00)

• Seidel on Leadership:

  "I had to focus on leading myself first before I could lead others in increasing the value that they added to the organization." (30:00)

• Seidel on Policy Impact:

  "We're really working to change the way people think about the relationship between government and their individual life." (10:15)

• Seidel on Organizational Strategy:

  "Our principles are our motor and our steering wheel. Even in the biggest waves, we can crest them and continue on our way." (35:58)

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Final Thoughts:

This episode offers an in-depth look into the strategic operations and leadership philosophy of Americans for Prosperity under Emily Seidel. It highlights the profound impact of grassroots activism, the importance of strategic resource allocation, and the role of shifting public narratives in driving policy change. Seidel's personal journey underscores the value of resilience and self-leadership, providing listeners with both inspiration and practical insights into effecting large-scale social transformation.

Transcript

[Emily Seidel]

I realized that what that hid was a young lady who was. Who wouldn't do anything if I couldn't be the best at it. I was very unwilling to take risks. And so I grew up in Minnesota and I never learned how to ice skate because all my friends learned before me. And I was too embarrassed to try it. You know, like stupid little things like that. I look back and I think, what would I have tried, what would I have exposed myself to if I had not been so afraid of failure? And that's something that I can apply, you know, having that experience as a, you know, with really no real consequences as a child. I think about that often today, and it does push me out of my comfort zone in taking this job, for instance, it was super uncomfortable to take this job. I didn't know if I could actually do it. And somebody told me as I was deliberating whether or not to take it, they said, well, why aren't you going to just say yes, this is an incredible opportunity? And I said, well, because I'm nervous and I think I might fail? And they said, well, if a new job doesn't make you nervous, you shouldn't take it because it's not going to grow you. It's not going to challenge you. It's not worth taking.

[Kevin Gentry]

Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to light. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Well, greetings, ladies and gentlemen. I am very pleased to have with me as my guest today for the Going Big Podcast, Emily Seidel. Emily is president and CEO of Americans for Prosperity. And with more than 4 million volunteer citizen advocates, Americans for Prosperity is a very substantial grassroots organization in all 50 states. In 36 of the states, it has full time staff offices. In the last election cycle, over 30 million households had their doors knocked on in terms of voter conversation. And perhaps most importantly, just last year, they attribute over 300 different policy wins across the country to their engagement. That's really interesting. So as you can tell from the definition that it is going big just in that case. But there's a lot to unpack here today. So, Emily, thanks for joining. If you would, how would you describe Americans for Prosperity or afp in shorthand, as it usually is, beyond what I just did. And maybe how would you describe it to your relatives at Thanksgiving? Well, they said, what do you do?

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, I get that question a lot. Well, thank you so much for having me, Kevin. So the way that I describe AFP is that we just seek to expand freedom and opportunity so that every person can achieve his or her version of the American dream. And we do that through reaching and mobilizing citizens across the country to have their voices heard in the biggest public policy debates that are happening in the country at both the federal and state levels at any given time. And it's through those public policy debates and decision making that we either enact good policy that expands freedom and opportunity for people, or we break down the policy barriers that stand in the way of people being able to achieve the American dream.

[Kevin Gentry]

All right. Well, I'd love to get your take, put you on the spot what you see as the most significant policy victory in the history of AFP, which has been around for well over 20 years. But before that even put a finer point on what is a volunteer citizen advocate. I mean, if you haven't engaged in political action in some way, it's hard to understand what that is. Presumably many people listening have engaged beyond voting, but plenty others haven't. What does that mean? What is an AFP activist?

[Emily Seidel]

You know, at its core, it's just somebody who sees a problem in their community and does something to solve it. And that takes very different forms. So some people like to make phone calls to their neighbors and others in their community to educate them about something that's happening in their state or even federally, and give them the opportunity to raise their voice alongside the voices of others through petitions or email drives or whatever. It could look like going out and actually having those conversations by knocking doors, as you talked about in your intro. But it also could be attending rallies, coming with us to a state capitol to lobby, or even here in Washington, D.C. to come and lobby federal lawmakers so that they hear directly from their constituents. It's all about all of these different modes to be able to bring the voice of constituents to their elected officials to impact their decision making.

[Kevin Gentry]

So that's great. So I'd like to even pull that out a little bit more because I think the media narrative often is that, you know, these powerful forces overwhelm individual opinions. But your proposition is that the accumulation of all these individual actions and opinions matter?

[Emily Seidel]

Yes.

[Kevin Gentry]

I know that you worked on Capitol Hill, so you saw it from that perspective. And I guess it was what Everett Dirksen's favorite quote or famous quote, Senator Dirksen said, I see the light when I feel the heat. So does this, all this citizen action, really. Does it make a difference?

[Emily Seidel]

It really does. And I didn't know. Know that it did until I even got to Capitol Hill in the first place. I studied international politics and economics in college, was really interested in how other nations developed and why some did and some didn't and didn't really spend a whole lot of time paying attention to what was happening in our own country. But when I graduated from college, I didn't know what I wanted to do next. So I moved to Washington, D.C. and started interning for my hometown congressman from Minnesota, Jim Ramstad. And my job was to answer the phones. And so I started to hear these citizen calls coming into the office. My job was to track them and provide trends to Congressman Ramstead and the chief of staff and everybody else. And then my next job was to do the same thing, but for the speaker of the House. So when people, you know, organizations like AFP and others out there were driving these big citizen contact campaigns to Congress, oftentimes they would just put up. Put down the Capitol switchboard operator's number. And so it was an incumbent on the activist to know, I need to ask for my congressman by name. If they didn't know their congressman, guess who they got transferred to the speaker of the House?

[Kevin Gentry]

Me. Oh, wow. Okay.

[Emily Seidel]

And so. And so I got to. That was my exposure on the job to both the challenges that people were facing in our country, but also the impact that their phone calls at the time, you know, this is a long time ago. So mostly people are communicating by phone calls still not. Not email or social media. Certainly didn't exist. But I got to see what people did with all of those phone calls that came in every day and how it impacted the response that at either an individual lawmaker like Congressman Ramstad, or the speaker of the House and his team dealt with the sentiment as it was coming in to Congress. It was really powerful.

[Kevin Gentry]

Well, it's really fascinating because I think it's easy to get cynical about what matters in terms of political action. Maybe in many ways, the United States is unique in this form of citizen participation. You see, in a lot of countries, you can have big rallies and movements on the streets, but this sort of thing. And I will say, you know, one of my first podcast I did was with Richard Viggory, who developed political direct mail for conservatives in the 1960s and 70s. And I've also met over the years Roger Craver, who did that for liberal Democrats political direct mail in the 60s and 70s. And what they said was at that point they were empowering millions of Americans to speak their voice through the mail because up to that point it wasn't as done that way. So now with what you're doing and others do, all of this engagement really is citizen participation.

[Emily Seidel]

Absolutely. It's democracy in action. That's what it is.

[Kevin Gentry]

All right. So I happen to know, because we've worked together for a long time over the years that Americans for Prosperity was founded I think in 2004. So it's just a little over 20 years old. You celebrate your 20th anniversary last year. There was a predecessor organization of sorts, Citizens for Sound Economy, that had been founded roughly 20 years before that. In your judgment, what's the biggest, most significant, we'll say or consequential of the public policy victories that you think AFB had a hand in?

[Emily Seidel]

That is an impossible question to answer, Kevin. I mean, you said yourself just in the past year we've counted 300 policy victories. You accumulate that over a 20 year period. There are just too many to choose. There are. You know, some of the landmark ones that we've celebrated was things like the passage of Act 10 reforms in Wisconsin. That was the right to work laws really started to transform the state many, many years ago. The elimination of corporate welfare in Florida is another great example. But you know, let me. Not every win is the passage or defeat of a bill. Not every policy effort that we do results in that sort of an outcome. Because a lot of times I think what we're really working to do is change the way people think about the relationship between government and their individual life. And that should color then the way that they think about a lot of different pieces of public policy, not just one specific one, and also motivates them to get engaged in the decision making process by their government in the first place. And so one of the most recent examples that I would give you was not a legislative effort, it was a narrative effort. And it was over the past two years. You remember when President Biden coined the term bidenomics to kind of headline talking about his economic policy, kind of.

[Kevin Gentry]

He was hoping in the vein of Reaganomics that it would be a positive term.

[Emily Seidel]

Right. So we saw an opportunity to really connect the dots between these Big, huge economic policy ideas that often cause people's eyes to glaze over. I mean, we were talking about $3 trillion people. Don't people have a hard time grasping what that is? Or when you're talking about really detailed economic policies, they just want to know how it impacts them. And so he says, biodynomics. We're in communities across the country. We see how those policies that he's putting under that umbrella are impacting people's lives. This is the benefit of having a permanent grassroots infrastructure. We were able to just immediately go to the places where those policies were most impacting people on a daily basis, gas stations and grocery stores, and have conversations with them about to connect the dots very explicitly. And the outcome of that was, first of all, well, I should also mention the President's team forgot to buy the website Bidenomics.com. so we did, which was helpful because we were able to really define the term. And as a result, the White House stopped using the term bidenomics. But I think Americans really, it was a open window for a while for people to say, oh, I understand how all of this government spending is driving inflation. I understand how this energy policy or these regulations are driving up the gas prices at the pump. And it, and it was a. It moved the Overton window, I think, on those issues of the way that people are thinking about big government and their daily life.

[Kevin Gentry]

Okay, well, we're going to have to define the Overton window. I'm not even sure I still understand the Overton window, although I knew Joe Overton. But anyway, we'll come back to that in a minute because you just hit on something that you've been really good at about helping me understand over the years. And I don't still fully understand it, but you really got me even further along now. First of all, it's easy for us all to get excited about elections. There's a winner and a loser, usually two candidates, a defined outcome. All this stuff goes up until this point. Boom, election is over. But that's not how policy is made. That's not sufficient. It's an important step. It's not sufficient. I remember years ago when Jim Gilmore ran for governor of Virginia on no car tax pledge. There were stories that many people thought by voting for Jim Gilmore, they no longer had to pay their car tax. So we know that the elections are not sufficient. You have to get to policy, and with respect to policy, you have to have the support and the legislatures and what have you. But even then, if you pass a law that's not even sufficient. It has to be, you know, it has to. We're seeing this now with respect to things like DOGE and stuff like this. But even then the culture has to accept it and perhaps be moved by it. And I know that, for example, you've talked about Americans for Prosperities and other organizations involvement in expanding education opportunity in the states. And when West Virginia first passed education savings accounts, and then I think it was Iowa, then Arizona had to get to a tipping point, then Florida, then maybe Texas will do that. But until you change that whole dynamic in the conversation, you really. That's when you're really influencing policy. Is that right? Did I do that? Okay?

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, I think you did that quite well. I mean, it's bigger than public policy work. It's social change. It's changing the way that people think about our society and all of the institutions that play a role in that, whether it's education, how communities come together and work to solve problems, how the government plays a role in that or shouldn't play a role in that, how all of that comes together, the role of business. So, yeah, it's beyond just the nuts and bolts of getting a bill to become a law. It's also about all of the other pieces of infrastructure that go into our society at large.

[Kevin Gentry]

Okay, all right, so let's bring that to the present day. I've got a couple questions about that. But first, the Overton window. What is the Overton window and what does it mean to move the Overton window?

[Emily Seidel]

So the Overton window, as I would describe it, and I know that there are other people who sort of study this more from a political science perspective, but the way that I think about it is, it is the guardrails on what's possible in the way that people think about a piece of public policy. So, for instance, there was a time in my lifetime that I can remember when people talking about government playing a significant role in health care, whether that was single payer or, or whatever, was way fringe, like crazy idea that barely anybody was talking about. And today it. And in recent presidential primaries, especially in the Democratic Party, it's been a baseline requirement of something that you have to believe. So that is an example of the Overton window having moved from that issue position, being outside of that window, something that's not possible to move forward to being inside of the window.

[Kevin Gentry]

Got it. So on certain policy ideas, issues, particular preferences, it's sort of what is in the range of the possible. So if we'd said nationalize healthcare years ago, People would have laughed. But then it moves along. This can influence government spending. This can influence regulatory policy. This can influence term limits, whatever. Okay, got it. Okay, thank you. All right, so, brain to the current day, what do you see as the most significant threat or problem we face? Where you think Americans for Prosperity's activists can make a difference? There are a lot of problems. We're a lot of problems in the world today. But I'm guessing, for example, China and Russia, military might overseas is not an Americans for Prosperity issue per se. What is a significant thing that you think that you're concerned about and you think we ought to be concerned about?

[Emily Seidel]

Well, our number one priority right now is the extension of the 2017 tax cuts and Jobs Act. A lot of people, we did some polling earlier this year, and a lot of people have no idea that the tax cuts that were put in place in 2017 expire at the end of this year. And let's be clear about what, what that expiration would bring about if it happens right. It's on average a 1500 dollars tax increase on the majority of Americans, which that's real money.

[Kevin Gentry]

A lot of Americans, it's like what, 60% of Americans don't have a thousand dollars in their savings.

[Emily Seidel]

Exactly. And people are living paycheck to paycheck. You think about this coming on the back of years of inflation as well is devastating, but it's $1,500 on average. You look at a lot of states are closer to 2,300, 2,500. Nevada is one of the most hardest hit states. If this happens at $3,500 as an average tax increase for folks who live in the Silver State. So it is just from a pure tax perspective, a devastating result if this expiration happens at the end of this year, not to mention the jobs that will be lost. When the tax cut bill was passed in 2017, one of the outcomes was that of that was we saw more jobs across the country. We can project how many of those jobs would be lost. It's tens of thousands of jobs in each state if this happens. And so, you know, there's understandably, I think, a lot of attention being paid right now in Washington, D.C. to what's happening coming out of the White House. That's always above the fold in every newspaper and leads the headlines on most news channels. But Americans really need to be paying attention about what's happening at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue because Congress needs to take action. They need to take action quickly on this bill to make sure that we get it across the finish line.

[Kevin Gentry]

All right. Well, we got so many issues today. The federal debt is enormous. The consequences of that on the economy, on future generations is enormous. All these entitlements which dwarf the, you know, sliver of discretionary spending that can be cut. Then you have the regulatory burden that exists in the United States, which really is a barrier to opportunity. But you're on the tax cuts. I got to say, you know, I think in my mind, you know, right now, right now, as we're having this conversation, tariffs and trade are dominating the news. Doge is dominating the news. I think there's an expectation that, well, Republicans won better than expected in the elections and they've got pretty good discipline. It seems like even though Speaker Johnson has this razor thin majority, he's been able to get things done. So the Republicans in the Senate and the House and the White House, they should get this done. What's the big issue? You don't. You're not as confident that this is an easy passage?

[Emily Seidel]

No, I think it's dangerous to be overconfident about it. So first of all, there's the risk that it doesn't happen. In 2017, the bill, the Republicans had control of Congress by a much wider majority in the House than exists today. And the bill failed twice before they were able to finally pass it.

[Kevin Gentry]

So it's funny, you forget about that. You just remember that we got it. So. Yeah.

[Emily Seidel]

And so, you know, I think the risk that it doesn't happen is real. It might be smaller because it's harder to let a tax increase than to just fail to get a tax decrease. But look, my biggest concern, honestly is that it comes, but it's too little, too late. And by that I mean the quality of the legislation itself. The later this goes, the closer to the deadline, this is kind of a rule of thumb for any legislation. The closer you get to a deadline, the worse of a deal you get. And so the longer that this goes, I think you run the risk of getting a worse deal where you have to make concessions to different factions of the Republican conference to get enough votes to get it across the finish line. And so you might end up with additional lines of tax revenue to pay for the extension of some of the tax cuts. You might get some of the tax cuts extended, but others are allowed to sunset. And so there's a real risk in not getting the most pro growth tax package possible done this year. So there's the quality of the product question. From a timing perspective, too, I would say we don't need to just think about losing this fight in terms of whether it passes or fails. We will lose this even if it passes. But it passes just under the wire at the end of this year. And you're already starting to see this in a lot of news reports on how businesses across the country are thinking about rolling out a new product line, expanding some of their infrastructure. They're pausing on making those decisions until they understand the details of what might actually be in this package. And so we're going to get some of the economic downsides even if the bill passes and if it just takes too long to get it done. So that's that too little, too late concept.

[Kevin Gentry]

Gotcha. Okay. All right, so we're in. And this is. This is the way this Osage is made. This is getting into the weeds. But, you know, you're talking about going big in terms of the economy in the future and going big wrong if. If this doesn't happen. So just real quickly, for folks who are listening, what does AFP. What is AFP's role? What is Americans for Prosperity's activist role in ensuring that this year, 2025, the tax cuts and Jobs act is reauthorized? Is that the right term?

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, sure. Well, so it's happening through the reconciliation process, and we need to get a bill through the House and the Senate and to the president's desk. And so to do that, we've launched a campaign called Protect Prosperity, which leverages the capability that we've built over the last 20 years, the permanent grassroots infrastructure and the ability to mobilize people to have their voices heard by the lawmakers in Washington. So that's the first pillar of the strategy that we are running right now. We are activating people in key communities across the country to hold members feet to the fire, to drive that urgency with them and also help them to understand that it's not just whether it gets done, it's what it looks like, how good it is and how quickly it can happen. The second thing that we're doing is to try to hold these coalitions together under the dome. We're working really closely here in Washington with various offices on Capitol Hill and other coalition partners to make sure that the potential fractures within the conference and both the House and the Senate don't break apart in a way that tanks this bill that happened too many times in the lead up to the 2017 passage. And we know that we don't have any of the leeway, basically, that we had during that time. And so we've Got to hold those coalitions together. And so that's the work of our government affairs and our lobbying teams and our coalitions teams. But what makes them unique in those conversations is that they are representing the voices of all of the activists across the country at those tables. And then the third piece of this is just a national narrative campaign. Like I said earlier, a lot of Americans didn't know that this was even an issue. And so bringing that to light through a digital and mass marketing campaign so that people are educated, they understand what's at stake. That helps to drive the urgency as well.

[Kevin Gentry]

Interesting. All right. And you'll have a website or something that, if people are interested in this.

[Emily Seidel]

Issue, can go to protectprosperity is our campaign. So protectprosperity.com.

[Kevin Gentry]

Okay. Protectprosperity dot com. Okay, cool. All right, so let's talk a little bit more about Emily Seidel and. And how we get to this point and put it into some perspective. I know that you have two young daughters. I'm guessing that when you were their age, you were not thinking about leading this grassroots capability. I want to get to the word capability in a minute. Understand that.

[Emily Seidel]

Okay.

[Kevin Gentry]

So how did you. Did you dream big? Did you think big? How did. How did this all come to be? And. And what are the consequences for that decision making on people listening?

[Emily Seidel]

No, I did not dream of being a grassroots organization leader when I was in my youth and growing up in Minnesota, a landlocked state. You may be surprised that what I wanted to do is be a marine biologist and study sharks.

[Kevin Gentry]

Oh, wow.

[Emily Seidel]

I'd never seen a shark, but.

[Kevin Gentry]

Well, I guess it could be said that you're studying sharks being in Washington.

[Emily Seidel]

Yes. I never made that connection. Kevin, That's a good point. But no, and like I said, when I went to college, even I. I wasn't focused on domestic policy or. Or anything like that. It. I really learned on the job, and I learned on the job in Washington. In Washington. Well, I. I didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated from school, which is very common or not uncommon. Yeah. So, you know, I. I called my dad and asked him for some advice, and he said, well, you majored in politics and economics. Why don't you just move to Washington, D.C. and figure it out? And so I moved to Washington, D.C. and I figured it out. I got.

[Kevin Gentry]

How did you get a job?

[Emily Seidel]

I got an internship with my hometown.

[Kevin Gentry]

Congressman, which is very common as well.

[Emily Seidel]

Very common thing to do. And. And I did that for about two months. It was. He was from Minnesota, like I mentioned. And, and the woman who did the hiring for the speaker of the House. You're going to love this, Kevin. The woman who did the hiring for the speaker of the House was also from Minnesota. So when she had the job opening for the lowest level staff assistant job.

[Kevin Gentry]

She showed a preference for Minnesota.

[Emily Seidel]

Well, she did, but she also knew if she posted it, she'd get a thousand resumes. And so instead she just called the Minnesota Chiefs of Staff.

[Kevin Gentry]

That's pretty funny.

[Emily Seidel]

So I get, I answer the phone, I see it says speaker's office. I patch her through to Dean, the Chief of Staff, and I hear his side of the conversation because he doesn't have a private office, like a half wall. So I hear him say, I hear him say, oh, hey, Kirsty. Yeah, yeah, I've got somebody. She's an intern. Well, she already graduated from college. I don't know why she's interning. Well, you could just hire her. She's not a complete idiot. And that's, that's how I got my first job.

[Kevin Gentry]

That's your tagline. Not a complete.

[Emily Seidel]

Not a complete idiot.

[Kevin Gentry]

That's awesome. Well, you know, I, this is something I'm certainly finding in these interviews of going big, that people may have a desire and they have a passion. They're trying to identify their gift. They're trying to identify their passion. That takes a while. And we're all trying to do that at different times. But it's hard to know what to do. And it's amazing how many things might fall in the way of an internship or pursuing some little job lead. Very few have said, oh, no, when I was six years old, I determined I wanted to do this. That's great. Well, okay, so you're the president and CEO. It's a significant organization. How many employees?

[Emily Seidel]

About 500.

[Kevin Gentry]

500 employees. And then you have all these activists and stuff. All right, so a couple questions. Well, first, let me ask you a leadership question. And that is, do you have any particular leadership advice? I mean, I'll say I think you are very well regarded in your leadership and management skills for the organization. It's a big enterprise.

[Emily Seidel]

Thank you.

[Kevin Gentry]

What advice might you share from that? What are some lessons? Well, from your marine biology and sharks days.

[Emily Seidel]

People ask me this question a lot, and I always feel sort of silly answering it because I feel like I've stumbled into learning how to do a lot of things in this life. And one of the biggest lessons in leadership that I give people is one I stumbled into when I came to this job at afp. So when the board asked me to take this role, I had never knocked a door. I'd never organized a grassroots rally. I mean, I didn't come from that world. I was on Capitol Hill for a long time and, and so I had seen it, but from the other side. And so I expressed some concern about leading a grassroots organization that way. And they said, look, you would be leading a team of literal experts on lobbying and public policy and grassroots organizing and everything. That's not what you need to do. But we feel like your skills, you can come in and help take everything that they're doing to another level. And so I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. And I came in and the lesson that I learned was I had to focus on leading myself. And what I mean by that is I had to figure out how I added value first before I could lead others in increasing the value that they added to the organization. So I had to come in and really understand what the team needed, what the organization needed, and how I could meet that need and work to fill it. And that, you know, I'm still doing that in many respects because we live in a dynamic world and we always have shifting needs. But a lot of times when people ask me about leadership, they're asking me about how to. It's very outside of themselves. They're saying, how do I lead those people? And a big part of at least my experience in jumping to a big leadership position was figuring out what I needed to do first to be a productive member of the team.

[Kevin Gentry]

Wow. Well, you know, I've heard from a number of people that you work with that you're very good about letting people have the independence to come up with, take risks, come up with ideas, and then you have their back when they do it. And you have amazing stability for both a nonprofit organization especially, I would say a grassroots organization. And so that's a testament to it. I'd love to even understand more about that. But related to that, because you're not just focused on federal issues, and in fact, it's probably fair to say Americans prosperity is bread and butter. Is it state based and even local issues? How do you strike a balance among all the many competing interests, requests for resources? How do you handle prioritization? How do you balance all the competing demands that you must face in that area?

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, coin toss. It is not easy, Kevin, and it's not a simple answer. There's certainly no silver bullet to it. So we're trying to balance federal versus state Short term versus long term issue education versus the immediate policy effort versus an immediate political effort. I mean, there are just so many, so many competing demands. I would say there are two really important things that stand out. The first is really understanding your resource constraints and being able to make decisions around that in an optimized way.

[Kevin Gentry]

And when you say resource constraints, you're not just talking about financial.

[Emily Seidel]

No. So financial. Everybody has financial constraint in some way, shape or form. As a grassroots organization, actually, what powers, what we do is people. And so one of our biggest constraints is time, people's time. If we're going to ask somebody to spend their time with our organization, whether it's an afternoon knocking doors or an evening making phone calls, we want to make that have the biggest impact possible. And we also have political capital as a scarce resource. You know, there are a lot of different aspects to that, to that question, but we have to equip our leaders to be able to maximize the allocation of those resources at any given time. And that means that can't happen from a centralized place.

[Kevin Gentry]

Right. I was about to ask. So there's no way it could happen if it were all going through you?

[Emily Seidel]

Exactly. And so we have to give the people who have the most knowledge and direct control of those resources at any given time need to be the ones who can make that decision. And so we have got to give them the tools to be able to make those decisions quickly. One of the most important things that I think that we did was about 10 years ago, we had this amazing person reach out to us and ask if we would be willing to experiment with him to see if this company that he built that was helping Fortune 500 companies maximize their profits, if he could apply that in the world of nonprofit work, social change, to maximize freedom. And he. He happened to be somebody who was a classical liberal who agreed.

[Kevin Gentry]

Wait, wait, wait. Okay. What's a classical liberal?

[Emily Seidel]

Well, it's somebody.

[Kevin Gentry]

I'm sorry, I know what it is. I'm teasing you. But no one knows what a classical liberal is. And it's not a classic liberal, by the way. What is a classical liberal? And then we'll continue.

[Emily Seidel]

This is. Well, how would you describe it?

[Kevin Gentry]

Well, I would say one who believes in a minimal influence of government and the maximum amount of personal empowerment, independence, individual responsibility, individual action.

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, that is a very good explanation of it.

[Kevin Gentry]

Okay, so an oversimplification, but that gets us close enough.

[Emily Seidel]

Right, so small government. Yeah.

[Kevin Gentry]

The founders view. The founders of the United States were celebrating the 250th anniversary soon I was going to say their view about maximizing the power of the individual and minimizing the power of the state.

[Emily Seidel]

Exactly. And so he wanted to see if he could use this tool to advance what he personally believed in. Looked around, saw our organization advancing many of those same policy ideas. And so he came to us and asked if we would be willing to experiment. Long story short, in 2014, we ran our regular strategies. We devoted more financial resources to them than we otherwise would have to embed a series of experiments to really understand the most effective use of a volunteer's, an hour of a volunteer's time, and then the second best use and the time of day where you could be most effective. Making phone calls versus knocking doors, and to what demographic group. We got very granular with this. And then we've continued to execute against that for the past 10 years, continuing to learn and optimize as we go. But so that I can confidently say if somebody wants to spend their time with us and they're willing to do anything, the most effective thing to do is to go knock doors and have one on one conversations. If they can't knock doors for some reason, or they can't meet the people in person, the next best thing they can do is make phone calls. And then I also know from a resource allocation standpoint, if we're going to do that outreach, that one on one outreach, we might as well spend the extra resources it would take to send the people that we have those conversations with pieces of mail and digital ads to reinforce those conversations and make them sticky in their minds. It's what we call our grassroots layered approach. But it's one of the tools that we've given those leaders deep within our organization the knowledge so that they can do that resource allocation as effectively as possible. The other thing is really being able to connect the dots between what you're doing in the short term and what you're doing in the long term. The way that we do that is as a principles based organization, we look at every decision that we make through the lens of what we believe. And so as an example, if one of the members of our policy team gets a bill to analyze and let us know if it's a good bill, if it's bad bill, if it can be improved, et cetera, amongst many ways that they will evaluate that bill, one way is to take one of our principles, equal rights, and say, does this bill violate equal rights? Does it favor one group or another, or does it advance that concept? And so we embed that principle approach in every single decision that we make. And that's been a real advantage over the past couple of years. In particular, as you know, I've talked with a lot of other leaders of nonprofit groups or other business leaders as well in the for profit world. Whether it was Covid or some of the civil unrest in the country over the past several years, the violence, there have been a lot of demands really for people to offer opinions on it or take positions on it from all of these different perches of leadership. And many people have felt they've really struggled to figure out how to navigate through that time period. The analogy that I've often used is if you picture a boat in a hurricane, the way that we approach that moment with all of these waves crashing around, trying to shift what you're doing and how you're reacting to the environment around you. Our principles are our motor and our steering wheel. And so even in the biggest waves, we can crest them and we can continue on our way towards what we are trying to achieve. Other organizations who don't have that entry point into their decision making process, they go where the waves push them. And it's been a real advantage for us because people know if they get in the boat with us, they know where we're going and they're able to see how the things that we're doing today connect us to the long term goal of where we're trying to reach the shore that we're going to. We want to continue with the analogy. And so those two things, equipping decision makers with the ability to optimize resources and being able to very clearly see how every decision that we make advances our goal, those two things have been critical to the challenge.

[Kevin Gentry]

That's really impressive, I have to say, in that. And I think this is very misunderstood by a lot of people. A couple of things. One is, in the nonprofit world, there is not a lot of experimentation and challenge and study of what to do. There's a natural tendency to growing and becoming a bureaucracy. There are a lot of nonprofits are very top down. So this in and of itself I think is very interesting. But then also to continue to challenge yourself. What is the long term vision and objective? What are we trying to aim toward? Are we making progress toward that objective? And what can we do differently to do that better? So kudos. I, I think, I don't think this is really, really well understood about how Americans for Prosperity has, I'd say evolved and over the past several years. But so it's a different take on going Big. You could think going big is all about just one big action or big, bold move. But if I'm understanding correctly, the idea of you're building a capability is just that kind of continued drive toward that objective. Is that fair?

[Emily Seidel]

Yeah, I like the way that you put that.

[Kevin Gentry]

Okay. All right. Well, a stop clock is right twice a day, as they say. I got it right. All right, so let's wrap this up. I love to ask this question toward the end. Emily, imagine a younger version of yourself. What would you tell that younger version today about maybe something that you would have done differently? And don't say you wouldn't have come to work at Americans for Prosperity.

[Emily Seidel]

No, I wouldn't say that. So I played soccer when I was a kid from a very young age. My dad grew up overseas, was a big soccer player, and so he started me in it right away, and he would often tell me the position I ended up playing for most of my career was sweeper, which, if you don't play soccer, is the very, very last defender. And he was my coach for many years. And he would tell me that the reason he put me in that spot, which I didn't like, I wanted to score goals, right? Everybody does. The reason he put me in that spot was because he could count on me, that I didn't make rash decisions. I took smart risks when necessary, but I played. I was just very solid. And he meant that as a compliment. But as I got older in my life, I realized that what that hid was a young lady who was. Who wouldn't do anything if I couldn't be the best at it. I was very unwilling to take risks. And so I grew up in Minnesota, and I never learned how to ice skate because all my friends learned before me. And I was too embarrassed to try it. You know, like stupid little things like that. I look back and I think, what would I have tried? What would I have exposed myself to if I had not been so afraid of failure? And that's something that I can apply, you know, having that experience as a. You know, with really no real consequences as a child. I think about that often today, and it does push me out of my comfort zone in taking this job, for instance. It was super uncomfortable to take this job. I didn't know if I could actually do it. And somebody told me as I was deliberating whether or not to take it, they said, well, why aren't you going to just say, yes, this is an incredible opportunity? And I said, well, because I'm nervous, and I think I might Fail. And they said, well, if a new job doesn't make you nervous, you shouldn't take it because it's not going to grow you. It's not going to challenge you. It's not worth taking. And that's the last piece of advice that somebody gave me before I called and accepted the role here at afp.

[Kevin Gentry]

Hear, hear. Amazing. All right, so here are my last two questions. My next to last question. What is next for Americans for Prosperity in terms of going big? I don't know whether you answer that in the next five to 10 years, a particular policy issue, a particular approach, you get the Tax Cuts and Jobs act extended. What's going big next for Americans for Prosperity?

[Emily Seidel]

It's a great question. I think there are a lot of different ways to look at it. But I would boil it up to, I think we are at the precipice of a major shift in the way that people think about government policy. And here's why I say that. So you can look at what's happening in the states. You mentioned, K through 12 education earlier, that we've got a system that for too long has treated every child the same. And so it's failed to meet the unique needs of unique kids and put them in a place where they have the opportunity and can use the freedoms to be able to create prosperity and live their American dream. Right. So you've seen sort of a slow march of people questioning that. Is this really the best way that we should educate our children? And fast forward just over the past couple of years, about half of the states in our country have enacted some sort of education reform that provides more options for parents and students and teachers to look for and provide individualized education. You could say the same thing on regulatory reform. You raised regulatory reform earlier. Rains, the Regulations in Need of Scrutiny Act.

[Kevin Gentry]

Oh, that's what Rains stands for. Oh, I never knew that.

[Emily Seidel]

It's shorthand. It just says that any legislature. So if it's at the state level, state legislature has to vote to approve regulations that an administrative agency wants to enact if they are of a certain threshold of economic impact. So it puts in the hands of the lawmakers who are accountable to the people, the decision to go or no go on those big regulatory decisions.

[Kevin Gentry]

And the rap, of course, against the regulatory state is that it's not accountable to the people.

[Emily Seidel]

Right. So for a long time, Wisconsin was the only state that had reins. Right now, about a half dozen states have either passed it through their legislature or have signed it into law. And over half of the States in our country are considering it at some level. And so there's just this momentum at the state level for changes that are pretty big in the way that government impacts people's daily lives. So you can look at that at the state level and kind of feel like, wow, we might be at a tipping point on a lot of these major issues. And I think you can say the same thing at the federal level as well. And so as I look at the next five to ten years, AFP is this. Now is the time to pour on the gas. Right. More and more people are starting to see these policies enacted in their states, and they're seeing them have a positive effect, and they're saying, wow, these are policies that are localized, that empower people. Are there other ways, other problems we can go fix with these ideas? And so more and more people are walking through the doors of AFP field offices across the country to say, can I get engaged? What can I do? And so over the next five to 10 years is when we really feel like we're at this tipping point to see an unleashing, if you will, of these types of policies across the country.

[Kevin Gentry]

Wow. Well, considering the size and scope of government today and its reach and the enormous burden of the debt, talk about a tipping point. Hope that you're successful.

[Emily Seidel]

Thank you.

[Kevin Gentry]

All right, so final question. What advice would you give to those listening today how they personally should think about going big? You can anchor that in your own personal life lessons or lessons from Americans for Prosperity, or both or anything. But what advice would you give to others about how they should think about going big?

[Emily Seidel]

Well, I guess I would draw on some of what we've already talked about to say, learn the lessons of my childhood. Don't be afraid to fail. And if you want to go big in starting to raise your voice to impact public policy, come and see what we're doing in your hometown, in your state and see if you want to be part of this. With Americans for Prosperity. We've got a lot going on, and there's a real opportunity, I think, to be part of going big as a country.

[Kevin Gentry]

Nice. Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's been a treat to be with Emily Seidel, the chairman and CEO of Americans for Prosperity, if you're interested in getting more involved. Anything that Emily talked about, I think the website is afpvolunteer.com there's obviously americansforprosperity.org, but afpvolunteer.com is a great way to get engaged, even at the local level. And then the ProtectProsperity.org campaign is the one that's going on right now with respect to the Tax Cut and Jobs Act. Thanks for joining us today, Emily. Thank you. It's great to be with you.

[Emily Seidel]

Thank you so much.

[Kevin Gentry]

Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.