← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Merit, Honor, and Legacy: Dr. Douglas Bradburn on George Washington’s Enduring Call to Go Big!
01:00:32
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- [00:00]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
George Washington always put an emphasis on meriting success. This idea that you can't decide. You know, there's a quote he would use from Joseph Addison's Cato, which is, you know, it's not in mortals to command success, but you can do better, you can deserve it. So this idea that if you want to do great things and you want to do big things, you know, you need to work on improving yourself, making sure that you are in a position to merit that opportunity, that success, when it comes to you, because we are mortal, we aren't able to dictate what's going to happen. So preparation was always key for him. Prepare, prepare, prepare, educate yourself, Pursue those things that you want to pursue. And then when opportunity is there, you can have that success that you merit. And for him, it was always more about not just being ambitious, but being ambitious with what he would call honor. In the 18th century, there's a right way and a wrong way to get what you want. So if you're going to go big, do it the right way. Try to go after it in the, you know, in a way that you can, you can respect yourself and other people would respect the work that you've done.
- [01:14]
Kevin Gentry
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to light. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Well, ladies and gentlemen, with me today is Dr. Douglas Bradburn, who since 2018 has been the President and CEO of George Washington's Mount Vernon. He is a well known American historian and author. But in this role at Mount Vernon, as you're going to quickly see, there's a lot to discuss with respect to going big. First of all, there's the obvious sort of highly consequential and courageous leadership of George Washington with respect to our, our nation and its founding. There's also the enormous historical importance of his home, Mount Vernon, which we'll learn more about. And then also, I think you're going to be really interested in the vision that Doug Bradburn has had for this historical Property and how he's tapped elements of innovation to really harness a lot of the educational aspects of this in a way that's again, very consequential. And for your, wherever you may be listening to this around the world, I hope as a result of today's conversation, you'll conclude, conclude that if you've not been to George Washington's Mount Vernon, you've got to make a trip there soon. So, Doug, it's a real pleasure to have you with us today on the Going Big podcast. Thanks for joining us.
- [03:11]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, thank you, Kevin. It's great to see you again. I'm honored to be here with you.
- [03:15]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I, in terms of going big, I think we've got to start with first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. I mean, George Washington, extraordinary. But if you would, I mean you, you have studied him perhaps more than any other. And now in this role at Mount Vernon, who was George Washington, especially in terms of going big?
- [03:40]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, that's a big question for a man who is the father of our nation. He literally was the indispensable man without whom we might not have had a United States of America, certainly not in the time that it happened. That wonderful quote you started with, which is a part of a eulogy from Light horse Harry Lee, the official eulogy the US Congress commissioned, first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen, first in war, is the man that led our nation through eight long years of struggle against the greatest military on the earth to win the independence of this country. And you know, we'll get into that. But it wasn't just that he won, it was how he did it, which has been so remarkable to setting up the character of the man and influence some of the values of our nation.
- [04:31]
Kevin Gentry
And Doug, if I could jump in on that point, I interviewed former United States Senator Phil Graham recently and he brought up George Washington. That and he said the king of England commented that George Washington was arguably one of the greatest men alive in the world, which was high praise. And so that military leadership, it's just mind boggling when you think about it.
- [04:54]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Absolutely. And the key that that's a wonderful quote. I'm glad he brought that up because the truth of it is the king actually has Benjamin west at the castle. And Benjamin west is an American born painter, but he lives in England. He's actually painting Queen Charlotte. The king calls him in and this is basically in the war was over. They're negotiating the, the peace treaty which ends the war and establishes the independence of the United States. And the king asked him, said, Mr. West, what will Mr. Washington do if he achieves an independency of the United States? And Mr. West said, I think he'll retire to a private situation. And the king said, if he does that, he'll be the greatest man of the world. So that's the key part of it, that retiring at the end of the successful war, unlike Oliver Cromwell at the end of the English Civil War, he didn't march into parliament and say, you've sat too long here and became a dictator. And that fact of not becoming a military dictator, of allowing for civilian control, which he had promised and which is the way he served throughout the war, establishes the first great myth of America that is we are different. Why is America different? Because George Washington went home to Mount Vernon. And so that story, our first origin story that made the American system would be a rule of law and not of men. We've never had a military dictatorship. We've never had the threat of a military takeover in this country. And that is so different from so many other republics that won their independence against the British Empire, against other empires. And that precedent is something we should all be very proud of. And it's the reason Mount Vernon became a famous place right away. It was the place that Americans knew about because George Washington was there. And so after he gave up his commission at Annapolis at the State House to Congress at the time, handed it back to them and went back to Mount Vernon, he fulfilled the prophecy of George III of being the greatest man of his age. So that's the, that's the first in war part of his reputation.
- [06:57]
Kevin Gentry
And if I could ask you one other just quick question, because you're saying so much that's so, so important. We're celebrating the 250th anniversary of the United States. And, you know, soon we'll be celebrating the 250th anniversary of Paul Revere's and the first shot at Lexington and the engagement at Concord. How did George Washington become the commander of the troops? I know there's a lot more to talk into, but before we leave this particular small chapter.
- [07:27]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Yeah, we can stick as long as you like on anything. I'm happy to. And, and, and you're very timely, obviously, the 250th, and you touched on it. Within a few weeks from now, we're gonna have the 250th anniversary of the shots heard around the world at Lexington and Concord. Now, 250 years ago, today at Mount Vernon, George Washington has just come home from Richmond, where he would have heard Patrick Henry's speech, which we. We talked about earlier. And I know you interviewed the gentleman down there. Washington, at that time had already been asked to become the field commander of a number of these independent companies that were springing up throughout the colony of Virginia as. As. As part of that effort to mobilize and get prepared for the last argument of kings, which is war. And Washington was the most famous soldier in America. He was famous because of his service in the French and Indian War, particularly defending the Virginia frontier, so beloved in Virginia as a war hero and known to be an expert on that subject. So he was constantly on the committees at the House of Burgesses, and he was elected to the Second Continental Congress to represent Virginia because of his acumen and experience in war. And so he had already had made that beautiful buff and blue suit, the famous suit that George Washington would serve throughout the war in, you know, and he shows up in that suit when he goes to Philadelphia, and ultimately is appointed by the Continental Congress as the first commander in chief of the American Army. Now, that happens this year as well. That's in June. So we're in the 250th anniversary this year of the American armed forces. Before we had a declaration of independence, before we had a nation, we had an army. And that army was led by a man wearing a buff and blue suit.
- [09:12]
Kevin Gentry
Amazing. All right, and then ultimately back to. Let's continue with first in Peace. I mean, let's go to that next highly consequential chapter.
- [09:21]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
And so important, too, because we think about winning the war, but also winning the peace. And in this sense, George Washington not only successfully mobilizes the army without any disruptions, without any rebellions of note, and retires to a private situation. But then he does something, you know, talk about going big. I mean, going into rebellion against the crown was big, but he really doubles down when he helps mobilize the country around the need for a more perfect union or a need for a new Constitution. And so he ultimately goes to Philadelphia, and I'd love to talk more about that, but he's the chair of the Constitutional Convention, and then he helps get it ratified. And so essentially creating a peaceful transition to a new form of government, not a shot is fired in the creation of the United States Constitution. And he, of course, is elected unanimously in the Electoral College twice as President of the United States. And he keeps the country out of war. And so winning the peace is. And being first in Peace is a big, big thing because he secures the revolution, essentially. He assures the independence of these states that had won their independence through war, but he felt were completely fall apart if they didn't have a stronger government. And then he. He was essential to be the first president because no one else really had the trust of the nation. And so that, you know, that experience in politics is the thing that we can be really thankful for. Thank God he was our first president. Thank God he stepped up and helped the country come to a new constitution.
- [11:01]
Kevin Gentry
Well, it's. It's really extraordinary. I think it's so easily taken for granted. And we'll dig into that a little bit more. But now I want to switch gears a bit. And what is Mount Vernon? I'm still. I went as a very young child on a school field trip from Richmond, Virginia to see Mount Vernon, and I grew up with it. But I'm stunned even as a Virginian to see how many people have not experienced it. It's privately owned, something that is not well known. Doug, what is Mount Vernon to those who are listening today?
- [11:34]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, this is. Thank you so much. I mean, so Mount Vernon is George Washington's estate here on the Potomac that, you know, he had inherited from his brother's widow and eventually had lived here, you know, until he died in 1799. He was here about 40 years. So it was in his time in the 18th century. It was a great plantation and of course has a beautiful house in the home grounds here. When he died, there was 8,000 acres. Now he's entombed here as well. He and Martha Washington are entombed here. And over the years, you know, the 8,000 was broken up into many parts at the core of the estate descended among to his nephew and then his great nephews. And ultimately they sold it to a group called the Mount Vernon Ladies association of the Union. In the 1850s, Mount Vernon had already become a pilgrimage site for Americans coming here, but it couldn't be maintained. It couldn't be managed anymore. And so they tried to sell it to the, the United States Congress. But this is, you know, years, decades before the national park system exists. They tried to sell it to the Commonwealth of Virginia. They didn't know what to do with it. And so there was a group of women that formed, said if the men of America won't save the father of their country's house, then the women shall. And they created a corporation called the Mount Vernon Ladies association of the Union. They raised the money in 1858, $200,000 from all over the United States. The first major fundraising campaign for anything like this. And they purchased the core of the estate, 250 acres at that time, now up to 400 acres, which includes the house at Mount Vernon, which is iconic, as well as the tomb. And they've opened it up to visitors since 1860, so since before the Civil War. So we're the first historic preservation group in the nation. We're the oldest historic home, we're the oldest women run organization in the nation. And as you noted, we are completely private and independent. We serve a public mission, but we don't receive any tax dollars at all. We see no government money, no state money, no local money. And so we really keep this in trust for the American people and people who've been coming here since 1860 as visitors. Now, you rightly say not enough people come here, but there have been over 100 million people who've been here since.
- [13:54]
Kevin Gentry
Then, and 100 million people have gone through that house. We'll come to some of the things about the preservation in a moment. But you know, the Mount Vernon Ladies association is a going big story in itself, one of the biggest. To think that just before the American American Civil War, a group of ladies went back and forth between the north and the south to raise funds and to raise that much. It's extraordinary.
- [14:22]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
It is a classic going big story. Because in this case, this is a time before not only can women not vote, which everybody who's listening to this probably knows, but also women couldn't own property in their own right. I mean, it was very difficult. And so the idea that these women could convince the Washington family to sell this extraordinary place and that they would operate it and they could convince all these people to donate their hard earned money to help purchase it, is really quite, quite extraordinary. And in doing so, they invented the whole idea of historic preservation for a civic purpose. And I want to lay into that real quick, Kevin, because as you pointed out, it was years of great dissent in the nation, discontent, division, which ultimately led to the Civil War, that they were called the Melbourne Ladies association of the Union because there was women not only from the south, but also from the north, from every state. And so they thought, I think, that if they could save the father of their nation's house, they could help save the Union. Because George Washington had always stood for the idea that Union was critical to American independence, that we had more in common than we have against each other. And so Mount Vernon always has stood above party, nonpartisan, and also against sectionalism and against any of these divisive ideas that really create in the minds of our American citizens that they are enemies to each other. And so that was. That's part of the. The spirit of who we are and it's part of why we exist.
- [15:52]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. And so with respect to the ladies association, it is still governed in that way by regents from many of the states in the country. Could you just explain that just a little. It too. It's really remarkable.
- [16:05]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Thank you so much. Yes. So we are. So we're a 501C3. We're a non profit organization. Today my board is made up of all women. There's one per state, so they're called vice regions. But there's not one from every state. So right now there's about 25. So for instance, there's one vice regent from Virginia and one vice region from Illinois and one vice region from California. And then there they're. The chair of our board is called the regent, and that is a term that lasts for three years. The current regent is Daniel Petroy, who's our vice regent for the state of Wisconsin. And so it is a. It is still a union of incredible women that drive this place forward. And so I'm honored to be, you know, the man here. You know, I'm The President and CEO is my title. There's been a resident superintendent of Mount Vernon since 1860. I'm the only. The 11th do I live here on the estate. And you know, resident superintendent isn't my title anymore. But it's like great inflation. Everybody wants to be a president and CEO. So there you go. But it's kind of extraordinary because although there have only been 11, there was one guy that was in this role from 1885 to 1937.
- [17:19]
Kevin Gentry
Oh my gosh.
- [17:20]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
And that's 52 years for those calculating at home. And then the guy that followed him was here from 1937 and 1977. So two guys were here for 92 years. So it's. It is a special, extraordinary place.
- [17:34]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. Well, there's so much more I want to tap into. And we have limited time, but I want to tap in more about George Washington's leadership. I want to tap into more about when folks might think about when to visit, how to visit Mount Vernon, also how to tap some of the resources online. But I want to talk a little bit more about you and your role. You're an historian. You had, I believe, been working at Mount Vernon with the library, but were tapped into this leadership role. But you have a vision for taking this amazing historical property and not only preserving, but advancing the legacy and leadership qualities of George Washington and highly innovative ways that people can tap so that it's more of a living institution is my understanding. Tell us a little bit about your vision and how you see its impact for years to come.
- [18:28]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, thank you. That's a big and important question. You know, I. My background was as an academic, as you pointed out. I was a PhD in history and I taught for most of my career. But SUNY Binghamton in upstate New York, when I came to Mount Vernon, they had, we had just opened up the Presidential Library of George Washington. So that was a big step in the transformation of the possibilities of this institution to be really kind of a multi threat educational institution. Because although we've been a historic site since 1860 and been leaders in preservation, we weren't really known as a center for research. And the Presidential Library was not only supposed to be on the scale of a modern presidential library, but also a center and a hub for research on the 18th century, as well as a center for conversations about the continuing relevance of George Washington. So as the founding director of that library, a lot of my vision for the future of Mount Vernon was developed in building those programs out. Essentially there weren't any here. This opened in 2013 and it really spoke to the opportunity we had to use this incredible site to not only make sure we were continuing to be leaders in preservation, collections, decorative arts, in the education of all the school kids who come here on the estate, but also make sure that we were the people that owned the stories of George Washington, had the best expertise on those stories and also innovating in ways to get them in front of the rising generation of students. As you know, the way people consume media has been transformed. I mean, here we are on a podcast which did not exist 20 years ago, let alone 10 years ago. They were still in their infancy, maybe 12, 13. And so we got to go where the eyeballs are. And so we've invested in storytelling through technology, everything from short form videos to more social media, but also very dense and impactful web based web pages that are supported by deep research and databases and other things like that. So, so that we can tell stories and continue to tell stories as the platforms change. I think that's one of the biggest challenges is that the platforms are changing all the time. I mean, the kids are now on the TikTok and the Instagram and you know, when I first got here, those were non existent, you know, so how do you keep mo. How do you keep dynamic in the face of this need to continually tell these stories is one of the big questions and challenges that we're faced with. So the big vision is essentially to make sure that we are maintaining this place to the highest standards, but that George Washington stories are relevant to the rising generation and that everybody understands the timeless character of his leadership.
- [21:31]
Kevin Gentry
Well, let me, if I could tap a little bit more into that. I mean, so from the standpoint of the library materials, you have this extraordinary works of his and others of the period. You have these scholars who come in and are residents and do this important work. But in visiting the property, I mean, I remember maybe 50 years or so ago as a school kid going, you know, there was the house, you saw the Potomac river. You might buy a tricorner hat or a musket in the gift shop. But George Washington was fairly two dimensional. And you all have brought that to life. And a lot of historical properties I don't think are as innovative. If you would talk a little bit more about the recent history of Mount Vernon, deciding to go big and really leaning into that and bring it to life. I mean, the elements of engagement that you all offer for visitors now, it's really quite remarkable.
- [22:31]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, thank you for that. I, I, I, I agree. I mean, to go big in Mount Vernon means that we have to assure that there's something for every person here that can connect them to the relevance and the authenticity of the place they're at. So Mount Vernon does have his tomb and does have stories, memorial stories, but it also is a living history site where we interpret him as the entrepreneur. People don't know that he had the largest distillery in the nation at the time he died. We actually distill whiskey here. We have it, have his distillery on the exact site it's on. We've brought back more items that were owned by George and Martha Washington in the last five years than all of our history combined. Thousands of items have been brought home here, and these can be brought to life in multiple museum exhibits, which we have, and also in the mansion house itself, the outbuildings itself, the hundreds of acres of woodlands. And, and, and we preserve the view, the view across the river as we, we preserve that so people can be immersed in the 18th century. We have character actors. We tell the story of the enslaved here at Mount Vernon in multiple ways, in impactful ways, you know, and historic trades. So we have the blacksmiths and we have the spinning house, and we have people on the farm. And you can, of course, also enjoy the beauty of the place, I've got a restaurant, I've got shops. So it is a dynamic and kind of constantly moving institution. I will say the research side has been critical to it. I mean, they. This is somewhat counterintuitive. I think, for a lot of institutions, you have to invest in research to stay relevant. It's counterintuitive because research is expensive and it takes time, and sometimes you might not know exactly where it will go. But because we do that both in the preservation in archeology, but also in history, it's the way to stay dynamic and relevant. Because we have all these scholars coming through, we're also making new discoveries. New discoveries in terms of what you're finding when you're restoring the home. New discoveries in archives around the world. So I'll give you one example. You know, we're acquiring letters of George Washington as they come up for auction. And some of these incredible letters he wrote to a guy named the Marquis de Chateau came up for auction. Nobody knew much about Chateau. I reached out and found a scholar in France, and it turned out that this whole Chateau archive was something that had not been discovered and exploited or used before. And out of that grew a lot of our ability to provide new programming at Mount Vernon. Chateau was actually one of the French officers who was here at Mount Vernon when Rochambeau's army stopped at Mount Vernon. So you find ways to tell stories that didn't exist before through research and ways to be constantly relevant. And I think this is something that all museums and historic sites need to keep in mind. Resources are always a problem, but research is going to be critical for your ability to be the expert on your own subject, but also to constantly refresh and renew the way you're telling the stories that you can tell.
- [25:46]
Kevin Gentry
All right. Well, I got three or four other different things I'd like to dig into that all relate to going big back on the property itself. I mean, again, it's the house, but it's so much of the other outbuildings and going down to the water. And tell us if you. Well, first of all, you've. And you've got. You really tie into the. To the native plants that George Washington was raising. Going back to your research because you had his diary notes of what he had. I'm now growing pawpaws as a result because I learned it was his favorite fruit. And that's a. It's a. It's a great thing to grow.
- [26:20]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
And Virginia local delicacy. That's right.
- [26:23]
Kevin Gentry
It really, really is. Tell us about the Cherries discovery. I mean, you also have an element of archeology continuing to go on.
- [26:32]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, so thank you. That's exactly the kind of point. I mean. So we are in the midst of the most important preservation project that Mount Vernon's undertaken since we saved the mansion. We discovered right after I became CEO, and this is maybe a lesson to all those who are stewards of institutions as well as innovators who are starting an institution. We discovered a problem with the foundation of George Washington's house. It goes back to 1737, gets a million people a year walking through it. It's been preserved since 1860 to deal with these crowds, but it's been kind of added to over time. When you don't have enough resources, you're just solving problems. And so in some ways, it's a, you know, underneath it in the cellar, it's kind of a Frankenstein's monster. There's different pillars that were put in the 19th century and the 20th century, different, you know, heating systems, you know, different fixes for temporary problems. And so we discovered that there was a fundamental flaw with the framing of the house. I won't go into the details of it, but essentially it required a major fix. Now, we could have gone small and just fixed the sill and said, okay, that's fixed. And we moved on. But we decided to go big and think about. We had the opportunity in our generation to holistically deal with a lot of these issues, issues related to moisture. We had. We had had termite incursions in the house. It's a wooden structure that had been fixed with brick. The brick had disappeared. So we could. We. We decided we needed to make sure this wasn't going to happen again and that we, who had the opportunity to understand the problem had the wherewithal to go at go big, needed to. Needed to do the. The fix. And, you know, this is not the most sexy of projects for a CEO to go around and say, hey, you know, and this is preservation in general. We're going to put all this money into something, and it's going to look exactly the same right when we're done with it, you know, except better. It's a challenge, but it was the right thing to do. And so we did it. And it's. We're in the midst of it right now. Part of that project is not only repairing masonry and carpentry, but we're going to put in a new H vac system. And the ductwork needs to go under the house and up the chimney stacks. Now before we can do that, we have to do archeology to clear the cellar. And so in the midst of doing this archaeology, last spring we discovered these intact bottles under, under the paving stones in the cellar that were put in there in 1775. So 250 years ago this year, underneath those paving stones were these 30 intact bottles, 18th century bottles filled with cherries and gooseberries and, and currants.
- [29:13]
Kevin Gentry
And were they still they? I mean, were they were just. Were they what was left?
- [29:18]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Unbelie was, is so. So when you dug them up, they were bottles basically filled with liquid. And we carefully took them out and discovered what was in them. It was cherries. So what had happened was this was a preservation technique from the 18th century. So you would harvest cherries, you would dry them, put them in an old wine bottle, cork them, bury them underground, and then you dig them up, you know, in this, in the wintertime and you could have fresh cherries, you'd have Cherry Gobbler, you'd have make Cherry Bounce, which is a brandy based liqueur drink cordial. In this case, these were buried and they were never dug up again. Now we don't know why they're forgotten again. This is when George Washington's going off to War, 1775. So there are disruptions in the household. He's gone. So who knows how these were left there. But so we discovered them. What had happened over time is that the corks, you know, shrank and sank into the bottles. And so over time, groundwater sort of filled up these bottles. And the remarkable thing, Kevin, is that the water, you know, had to go through that hard Virginia clay to get in there. So the water is completely distilled water. No bacteria in the water. We worked with the USDA to analyze the contents. The contents are still are. They're food grade edible right now because they've been sitting in this distilled water essentially. And you know, I haven't tried them and I don't think you would want to try these, but it's an incredible discovery. So this is the kind of the thing, because we're doing it correctly and taking our time, we discover these things and we've gotten, you know, tons of press and excitement about this. And again, this is how you make sure that you're relevant and exciting for people. You are investing in doing these things the right way and the stories will come.
- [31:05]
Kevin Gentry
Amazing. Well, there's so much to see and to discover at Mount Vernon. I want to tackle a couple more things about George Washington and his consequential leadership. But before that, Doug, for people listening, how should they think about visiting Mount Vernon? I think I have visited in every season. It's spectacular at Christmas time. It's spectacular right now in the spring, it's spectacular in the summer. But how should people think about it?
- [31:32]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, thank you. Look, we're open 365 days a year. So anytime you're in the D.C. area, you should make Mount Vernon an opportunity. It should be a bucket list for you. It's been important to Americans, as I said, since the founding of the nation. But you know, this time of year you've got the beautiful gardens about to go into bloom. These are garden designs that go back to the 18th century. George Washington's landscape. When you're on the landscape, he's his own landscape designer, you know, so you're inside his mind's eye. You're seeing what he wanted you to see. And so the power of the authentic space is really no 18th century site like it in the United States because there's so much of it that's been preserved. So you can go online to Mount Vernon.org and see, get tickets through that. But you know, I would recommend coming out here and being able to spend at least a day and a half or two days. There's plenty to see. There's multiple museum exhibits, the mansions in the midst of this preservation work, like I said right now. But it's open and you can come in and see some of the work that's ongoing right now. It's really kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity there. And as I said, there's something for all different layers of the family, from the history bus to the garden lovers to the decorative arts. I mean the stuff we have in the museum, you know, Martha's jewelry, George Washington swords, all these archeological findings, the furniture, the 18th century, lots of multimedia things for the animals. Right now, the lambs. Right now we got the brand new baby lamb. So definitely would encourage you to put it on your list of things that must see in D.C. and particularly if you're going to be here for the 250th anniversaries next year we'll have some major new exhibits and things to see as well.
- [33:14]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that's great point. And folks, you should follow Mount Vernon on social media. There's so much always to see. So if George Washington had only been there at Mount Vernon, his business leadership and entrepreneurial success in and of itself would be its own going big story. One of the greatest of his time before he then leads this ragtag group of colonists against the greatest empire in the world at the time to military victory. And then, as you say, who moves on to political leadership and serves his country and then does the remarkable thing of stepping down and returning back to the house. So I want to hit three other aspects of that. Three or four other aspects before we wrap up on the military leadership. There were some dark days. I mean, we have the image of a Valley Forge, but I mean, it was not all victory at Yorktown. Comment about just the man, then how. How. How do you see his not only strategic military leadership, but just his leadership of people?
- [34:25]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Yeah, well, I mean, it's. It's a great question. The first key thing, of course, is he is a man of great physical courage from an early age, able to withstand the fear of death, the actual opportunity for death. He's in the front. When he leads, there are bullets whizzing by him. That physical courage is critical because in the 18th century, leadership is performative. I mean, as it is today, people expect their leaders to play a part, a certain role, to. To present themselves in a. In a certain way. And there's a lot of different ways to do it. In Washington's case, he's on horseback. He's at the front. He's leading. He's with the troops. He never leaves. Eight years of war. He stays with the troops. He's with them at Valley Forge and Morristown in the winter when they don't have food and clothing. And he's there doing his job, writing letters to all the governors and all the. The local committees and all the Congress, trying to get them supplied and supported. So he's steadfast. He represents the cause. He represents perseverance in action. So you have personal courage, you have extraordinary perseverance, and you have extraordinary understanding, ultimately, that the army has to survive. Without the army, the cause will disappear. And so never taking any rash action that could lead to the loss of the whole army. That takes him a while because he's. He's a bold guy, and he wants to try to end things swiftly early on, but he comes to understand the political dynamic of the strategic survival of the army. So the patience, the perseverance in those roles, which are really part of his ultimate strategic vision and how the war is won. I think that everybody should. You know, reflecting on Washington as a military commander also, you know, it's just his is incredible integrity. He is always trying to make sure that things are done the right way. And that is how he builds the trust that's Ultimately going to be something he banks for the future of the country, not knowing, of course, what he will go on to. But, you know, we say here at Mount Vernon, when we teach leadership here in our library, we say that, you know, competence and integrity are the key to trust. And people believe that you're going to do the right thing or try to do the right thing. They also believe that you're going to do what you say and do it well, in a competent, effective way. Then you're going to establish unbreakable trust with your followers.
- [37:04]
Kevin Gentry
You're here. All right, well, I'm going to now turn to your more of your scholarly background with respect to his time in political leadership. I've only come recently to learn about vine and Fig Tree, the special letter that he wrote to the Hebrew congregation in Rhode Island. Tell us about George Washington's views on religious liberty. I don't think that's very well known.
- [37:31]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
It's not well known, and it's one of the most important aspects of the founding in general, in the United States. The thing that's made America unique from the beginning is that America has been a place where freedom of conscience and freedom of religion ultimately would thrive. And it did that. It wasn't inevitable. You had, at the very end of the war, you had establishments in multiple states. Virginia, of course, is the one of the first to establish after the war in Thomas Jefferson's Statute of Religious Freedom, the idea that that citizens would be free to worship is their conscience. And this is certainly something George Washington believed. We have a video you can watch online on Washington and religious freedom, which. Which tells it from his perspective, which is really important, because when he's an officer in the British Empire, a young man, 19 to 25 years old, he has to take an oath regularly to the Protestant succession in Great Britain, he has to take an oath specifically saying that he denies transubstantiation, which is the doctrine of the Catholic Church around. Around the Eucharist. So can you imagine that? You know, you have to make a religious test oath before you can qualify to hold any office now. And he would go on to be the father of a country that would never require that kind of an oath in its federal employment. Right? So he becomes the president of a nation that would never think to require an oath of belief. And that's a really big deal because there's no European country that would do that during his lifetime. So one of the things he does when he's president of the United States is he travels all around. He understands the Presidency as an office of public opinion. And he wants to know what people think. And he's the first president, of course, but he's the first president to go to every state in the Union. He goes to Rhode island, and he goes to. Whenever he goes anywhere. He gets a lot of petitions from different people in those cities, like, you know, the, the Chamber of Commerce and the local Masonic lodges and the men's groups and, and. And then also different ministers. And in Newport, there's a very robust Jewish community, the Turo Synagogue community. And when he arrives in Newport, he gets a letter from them saying, we hope, sir, that you'll recognize that, you know, here are Jews in Newport. We've been tolerated worship in our. In our way for years now. And we hope now that we're under this new government, under the U.S. constitution, that will continue to be tolerated. And Washington wrote back, it's no longer that toleration is spoken of for citizens to enjoy their inherent natural rights, essentially emphasizing that in the United States, which he says the government gives to bigotry, no sanction, to persecution, no assistance, you know, it's only that people can worship here as they please. And this is an extraordinary revolutionary statement. It really speaks to an aspirational value that Americans will have the freedom of conscience. And this is critical because he does this at a time before the First Amendment to the Constitution has been ratified. And the words of presidents are powerful. The words of presidents help establish aspirational ideas of who we are as a nation. And so Washington does that in this famous letter, and he quotes from the book of Micah, which you mentioned, in which he says he hopes that, you know, we can all live under our own vine and fig tree and no one will make us afraid. Sort of a prayer at the end of his statement. This letter is, I think, as timely as ever as we've seen rising antisemitism in the nation. It's a very important letter to the Jewish community of the United States. And it just goes to show that anti Semitism has been anti American since George Washington. But no other person, leader of a European power, could have written a letter like that in the 18th century. It really was a remarkable, remarkable thing. And, and, you know, I think this is one of the reasons that George Washington is so relevant to today. The values that we share as Americans can best be told from stories of our unique founding. And you can't understand our founding of this country without understanding George Washington. And you can't understand George Washington without Vernon.
- [41:52]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. Well, 250 years ago, he was doing these things which today we remark as being still so consequential. So toward that end, and talking, you're using your term about being aspirational. And this is certainly tied to going big speak, if you will, about the farewell address. His farewell address to the country after serving as president. It's a little tough to read because of the language at the time, but, boy, it's. It's pretty powerful.
- [42:24]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
It's very powerful. You know, it used to be common reading in classrooms and, you know, the old McGuffey readers and these educational tools that America had in the past. It's, as you say, it's over 6,000 words now. And I don't. I mean, that's hard in a. In a modern age. But the message is so relevant and continuously important. Important. The most critical thing about it is this emphasis on union. It is all structured around the idea that American independence and that liberty of person that we cherish so much in America will not survive without unity. You know, that you can't have one without the other. That union is critical and that we should be very careful about people that emphasize the differences first amongst us, because first and foremost needs to understand that the values we share and the union that we need, that gives us the strength that allows us to defend our liberty. And so he's looking at the dangers from, you know, foreign subversion of this experiment in democracy, you know, that can destroy our union. He's looking at sectional problems. Don't let people tell you that New England and the. And the south or that the east coast and the west don't have things in common. Beware those people. And finally, he's worried about political faction as dissolving union, that we have parties in a free nation. You're always going to have differences of opinion in a free country. As he had written to Hamilton, you know, until men are governed by angels, we have to allow for differences of opinion. But that parties, as inevitable as they are, they cannot. You cannot. You cannot allow party animosity to reach such a pitch of extremism that people consider themselves as enemies to each other because it will destroy the fabric of the nation. And he, of course, does. You know, he's very much in a mode where there's nothing like this system of governance in the world. And if America doesn't succeed, he thinks that it is the. You know, it'll be the death knell for systems based on representative government and liberty in the world. And I think that is the ultimate message for people, is that we all. Kevin have inherited an extraordinary thing. We grew up in a nation where people are free. The world right now is made up of people who aren't free. They're people fighting for their independence, fighting for the kind of freedom that we sometimes take for granted. And we have a responsibility to hand this off to the next generation intact or more perfect. That should be the goal that we're constantly striving to realize. These aspirations, make them come into place. And what also Washington emphasized in that farewell address, which he also said in his first inaugural, is essentially that knowledge is in every country the surest way to public happiness and virtue. And particularly in a country that has to govern itself, we have to educate people about their shared values, about their responsibilities and duties as citizens, about the three branches of government, about the way the Constitution was made, about why it matters. And this is why Mount Vernon exists. This place exists to help people learn about the past and about their present. And because it is constantly relevant, it isn't something that that is back in the past. We all have to be active citizens, and to be active, we have to be informed. So, I mean, all those messages are in that farewell address, and I think they're as. As important as they've ever been.
- [45:51]
Kevin Gentry
Well, thank you for sharing those insights and the timing. You know, this is Evergreen. I mean, these. These. Everything he said is always important, but it does seem to have enormous importance today for the world. And also, again, with the relevance of celebrating the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States. One last question. So these virtues of him as well, a man of just extraordinary character. And he was a gentleman. Tell us a little bit about after he was president, after he had served as the commander in chief of the troops. He's back at Mount Vernon. He's continuing to innovate and do all sorts of different things, but he also hosts people who drop by. Tell us just a little bit about that. That is so fascinating.
- [46:45]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, you know, it's definitely a different time, right? It's 18th century, and they still have this idea of Virginia hospitality. For a man of Washington's capacity and stature, it was expected that if you had a letter of introduction to him from any respectable person, and, you know, he's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I mean, everybody knows somebody who served with him or knew somebody. I mean, he'd been involved in public life for so long. And Mount Vernon is right on the north, south, you know, trails. And this is before there's any great hotels or taverns. And so everybody's Stopping there, he wrote to his mother that this place is like a well, resorted tavern. You know, we have documented in one year over 600 people stayed in the mansion house with George Washington. Can you imagine having over 600 overnight guests in your home? And you're paying for their. Their horses and their servants and their upkeep and their food. And. And so you would have found him in Mount Vernon, a very, very busy man. And people came, you know, foreign guests, people from all over the country, former officer friends of his, people who just knew an officer friend of his. So anybody could get a letter of introduction almost to anybody. And, you know, and that's, that's one of the remarkable things, is that this place has been a destination point from the very beginning. But, yeah, he writes about it. There's a. A diary entry he has with Martha Washington, actually, in the period you're talking about after the presidency when he's here. And he writes, if no one shows up in the next 20 minutes, it'll be the first time in 20 years that he and Lady Washington died alone.
- [48:23]
Kevin Gentry
Oh. Oh, my gosh.
- [48:26]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Yeah. He called his life a life on the stretch, you know, which I think is an interesting expression. A life on the stretch for over 40 years of public service from 1775 to when he comes back to Mel Vernon in 1797. I mean, it's just extraordinary. A man's life.
- [48:45]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah. The definition of public service. Well, let's wrap this up just for the benefit of folks listening. Doug, who is Doug Bradburn? How did you come to this role? Maybe others might be influenced about how they. I mean, did you always have an interest in George Washington and history? Did you ever dream you'd be in this role? Tell us just a little bit about that.
- [49:07]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
That's very kind. Look, I. I've always loved history. I've always loved writing. I wanted to be a writer. I ultimately decided to do that through history writing. I have a PhD in history from the University of Chicago, and all I wanted to do was write books and, and ultimately teach, and I did that. I was the chair of the History department at Sydney Binghamton University in Upstate New York when I left there to come to Mount Vernon to open up the Presidential Library, which I thought was an extraordinary challenge. I had been a fellow at Monticello. I did my undergraduate at University of Virginia. So I had a sense that what these public history sites could be as powerful places to do research and do that work. I never imagined that I would be the CEO of a nonprofit because the, the key Thing. One of the key things I have to do is raise money. Not only, you know, raise awareness and have a vision and strategy for where the institution needs to go, but I have to convince people that the work here is. Is critical and that we need their help. We do. And so that wasn't things I planned on. In fact, I think one of the reasons I went into history, Kevin, is because I didn't want to go into sales. And it turns out I'm in the business of sales now, so that it all comes back to that at some point. But in my case, it's a. It's something I'm extremely passionate about. I've been an educator my whole life, and my vocation, really is to make people understand the extraordinary significance of our founding. It's one of the most important things that happened in human history over the last 2000 years. I've devoted my life to studying it and trying to teach it in a way that it can come to life for people. Because I do fundamentally believe that this nation needs to have an educated citizenry about its origin stories as a way to make sense of who we are. We are not a nation based in blood or in territory or in these kind of myths of primordial, you know, connections or race or creed or religion. We are based on principles that come out of our founding documents. The Declaration of Independence, the first state constitutions, the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights. And of course, the leadership of George Washington is critical to understand all of those things in their context. So this was at a perfect spot for me. You know, I wasn't going to leave academia to go become the head of the Polk Museum or something like that. No offense to Polk and all the other wonderful histories that we have to tell in this country. But for me, this has always been a labor of love at Mount Vernon.
- [51:45]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. Well, indeed. And ladies and gentlemen, Doug says he's a salesman. He's a very effective salesman because he has such a passion for what he's doing. And remember, this is a privately owned facility. No government funds. Maybe this prompts you to consider supporting Mount Vernon. It's a great cause. And can I put a pin in that?
- [52:11]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
The importance of us not having government funds. Many institutions need government funds, and I think that's critical. But for us, the ethos of the place from the beginning has been that if the American people don't think that George Washington's home matters, then it won't exist anymore. We depend upon people spending their time to come here. We depend upon people giving their Hard earned money to help this place work. When that stops, this place won't survive. And I think that sense of volunteerism, of who we are as a nation is just so much embedded in who we are as an institution as well. I definitely encourage people to take a look at us and come visit and see for yourself.
- [52:51]
Kevin Gentry
Well said. I think I have an overdue contribution on this way to Mount Vernon. This is a good prompt.
- [52:57]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Become a member.
- [52:59]
Kevin Gentry
I try. I've been to the event several times, but I'm a little late this year. But in any way, Doug, I love to ask this question. What would you today tell a younger version of yourself? Maybe a 21 year old version of yourself now, what, you know, what you might do differently or have done differently.
- [53:20]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Oh my goodness. This is a, this is an unfair question, Kevin. This is, you know, this requires the sort of, you know, this is something for my priest. I mean, you know, this is a very, there's, there's some deep failures in every, every man's life. He's not necessarily every one of us ready to own up to, you know, I think, by the way, I have.
- [53:39]
Kevin Gentry
To eject in there. I read recently it was Stephen Ambrose's undaunted courage about Lewis and Clark.
- [53:45]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Yes.
- [53:45]
Kevin Gentry
And El Merwe Lewis, who had just discovered the passage to the Northwest. Amazing. In his 20s. And he writes in his diaries an absolute failure. And he doesn't understand what he's ever accomplished in his life.
- [53:59]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Well, yeah, any ambitious person, I think has that nagging, nagging aspect to them. You know, I, I think, you know, I, I mean, look, as it comes to the current job I'm in, I don't, I don't have a ton of advice for my younger selves except to be relatively patient with, with yourself. I mean, there are many things I wish I was better at. I don't speak French. I mean, I think that's a big or, or Spanish. I mean, I speak a little Spanish, but, you know, I think it's a big weakness when it comes to me as a, an ability to communicate these important messages with the rest of the world. There's no reason I can't continue to learn that, Kevin. So I don't want to admit all my, all my weaknesses. I mean, I could tell myself, you know, go into finance and that way I could just write a big check to Mount Vernon and then people could ask me for funds. That would be maybe, maybe good advice. Buy Apple stock very early on, you know, these kinds of things. And now I'm afraid I, you know, I, I, you know, I don't know. I'm very fortunate in that I, I wanted to become a historian. I became a historian, and it led me to this incredible opportunity to run this place, which I never imagined and never imagined my path would take me. It's not what I wanted when I was 21. I think that's a message for all young people, is that you don't have to know what you want to do when you're 21 years old. You need to follow your passions and take advantage of opportunities as they come to you. And that's what I've tried to do.
- [55:29]
Kevin Gentry
Nice. Well, hear that frequently that you don't need to know, but you do want to follow your dreams and your passions. Doug, how do you think George Washington would recommend to folks today to think about how to go big in their lives?
- [55:47]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
That's a great question. You know, I think, you know, George Washington always put an emphasis on meriting success. This idea that you can't decide. You know, there's a quote he would use from Joseph Addison's Cato, which is, you know, it's not immortals to command success, but you can do better. You can deserve it. So this idea that if you want to do great things and you want to do big things, you know, you need to work on improving yourself, making sure that you are in a position to merit that opportunity, that success, when it comes to you, because we are mortal, we are able to dictate what's going to happen. So preparation was always key for him. Prepare, prepare, prepare. Educate yourself. Pursue those things that you want to pursue. And then when opportunity is there, you, you could have that success that you merit. And for him, it was always more about, you know, not just being ambitious, but being ambitious with what he would call honor. In the 18th century. There's a right way and a wrong way to get what you want. So if you're going to go big, do it the right way. Try to go after it in the, you know, in a way that you can, you can respect yourself and other people would respect the work that you've done. He didn't see much value in just getting ahead for the sake of it.
- [57:10]
Kevin Gentry
All right, well, you're a very influential and important leader, not only in the Washington, D.C. area, but in all in the historical community and everything that you're doing with respect to Mount Vernon. Last question. What advice would you, Doug Bradburn, give to folks listening to think about how they should go big in their life?
- [57:31]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
That is a good question. How do you go big in your own life. You know, I, I think you. You have to. You have to pursue the things that you care deepest about, that you are passionate about. It's. It's, it's such a cliche, because what you know, how do you find those things? For those of you who have those things, you know, embrace them and go forward with them. I would also say time is short. If you want to do something, do it. If you want to take an opportunity, you know, take the opportunity you know. You know, those of us who lived long enough to see parents die and friends die and siblings die, the one thing you know is that it isn't as important as you think it is. You just need to go do the thing you want to do, you know, and, and if you want to be a writer, start writing. You know, if you want to make music, make music. You just do it. And, And I also think you have the humility to ask for help. Have the humility to work with people who are in places that you want to get to. Don't be afraid that they'll think you're dumb. They'll be afraid that they won't have you know that you know that they're not willing to help you, because most people are flattered when you reach out to them and reach out for a helping hand and reach out for advice and opportunity. So pursue that thing you want to be. Do the thing that you want to be doing, and reach out to people who are doing what you want to do and ask them for assistance and support, and they might tell you something that'll allow you to say, hey, you're right. I don't have that skill yet. I need to go get that skill. So merit that opportunity. And I very much firmly believe in that. That hard work will bring you where you want to be.
- [59:18]
Kevin Gentry
Well, Doug Bradburn, it's been a treat being with you today. Thanks for encouraging us all to think about and go big, especially through the amazing example of George Washington and his principled, courageous leadership. And ladies and gentlemen, listening. You got to go check out Mount Vernon, check it out online, go visit sometime, support them. You'll love it, and it's a great time to do it. In celebration of America's 250th, Doug Bradbury. And so nice to be with you, Kevin.
- [59:47]
Dr. Douglas Bradburn
Thank you so much. I appreciate the time and opportunity to speak with you.
- [59:50]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep Going big. See you next time on the Going Big podcast.