← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
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- [00:00]
A
I do think as people look to the future, Kevin, I think it's going to be more important for us to figure out what we're for before we decide who we're for in the next presidential election. I think Republicans ought to do a lot of soul searching as you see the stops and starts on our support for Ukraine under this administration, nationalizing American businesses, unilateral tariffs, price controls on everything from pharmaceuticals to credit cards. All of this should create a backdrop for a very healthy debate over whether we're going to stay moving in the direction on these issues that President Trump has led our party or whether we're going to reground ourselves back to those timeless conservative principles. I think that have always made not only our party successful, but more importantly, have made America strong and prosperous and free.
- [00:54]
B
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to life. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Well, welcome back to another episode of the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and I'm very pleased and honored today to have as my guest the former Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence. Vice President Pence, as you know, in modern times, has had a front row seat to some of the most consequential moments. And he has always inspired me. And we're going to dive a lot into this about his extraordinary dedication to principle and his willingness to speak truth to power. And he's also continuing to speak out. And we're going to talk about a new book that he has coming out called what Conservatives Believe. There's a lot to talk about, but Vice President Mike Pence, what a pleasure to have you today. Thanks for joining us, Kevin.
- [02:26]
A
Thank you. I've known you for many years, so grateful for everything that you've meant to the conservative movement and the country. It's a joy to be with you.
- [02:35]
B
Well, you much more, so thank you very much. And that's really what I like to dive into, beginning with just a lot of your personal journey coming to Today and then really before we conclude, talking about the future. So if I understand correctly, your first vote for President of the United States was not for Ronald Reagan, but for Jimmy Carter. You were raised a Catholic. I think your family immigrated from Ireland, sort of an Irish Catholic Democrat family. You went to college, you converted to evangelical Christianity and you became a believer in the principles of Ronald Reagan. Is that true? And if so, what happened?
- [03:21]
A
Well, thanks. You know, I grew up with a calling in my life for public service. I don't know exactly where it came from. I think I was deeply inspired by the, by the life and the eloquence of President John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. And so when I reached my teenage years, I got involved in Democrat politics in my local community. Two major things happened in my life when I went off to college after having walked away from religion. I tell people I didn't leave the church, I just left religion. I thought religion was a crutch that some people needed. I wasn't going to be judgmental about it, but I didn't think I needed it. But when I went to college, I met some people that talked about having a personal relationship with God. And they didn't describe to me their denomination, they just told me they were Christians. And I was intrigued by that. And over the course of a year, getting to know a few friends in my fraternity, sitting down and having some long late night conversations, I found myself getting involved in the Christian fellowship group, listening more intently. But it was the spring of 1978 at a Christian music festival where, where listening to preaching over a three day period of time, listening to contemporary Christian artists in the early days of that type of music, that I made a personal decision to put my faith in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Now I will tell you that changed my life forever. But it didn't change my politics. I continued on the path that I was on. Frankly I, I was inspired and intrigued by the fact that we had a born again Christian in the White House in Jimmy Carter. And he was a deeply moral man and an admirable man, not a very successful President. But it was in the years that followed that under the tutelage of a history professor at our college, that I started to really be challenged in my philosophy of government. And I started listening very intently to the voice and the values of Ronald Reagan. And that's what led me to join the Reagan revolution, joined the Republican Party. And I've never looked back. But the last thing I'd say on this count is it's Interesting. I don't think my values really changed. What I heard in Ronald Reagan was the values I'd really been raised to believe in. I mean, my grandfather immigrated to this country. My dad was a combat veteran. The belief in a strong defense, the belief in less government, less taxes, and ultimately my deep conviction about the sanctity of human life all led me to conclude that my place was in the Republican Party. And on those principles, I've sought to lead and serve throughout the years.
- [06:24]
B
All right, so you had these values, but through college, oftentimes for young people, different things happen. They're challenged in their faith, challenged in their politics. You were challenged, too. You chose a different route, but still rooted in the same values. What became the motivation for your pursuit of public service? Was it your faith? Was it the principles? Was it the calling and interest in public service? All the above, because if I recall correctly, you decided to run for Congress in 1980. 86. 88. 1990, which were the times around that time.
- [07:01]
A
1988, I was 29 years old.
- [07:03]
B
There you go. All right. And I remember, by the way, hearing then, I knew some people who worked on your campaign who were big fans of yours. You got to meet this Mike Pence guy. He's awesome. But at that point, what was motivating you?
- [07:18]
A
Well, I think when you talk about where it was born, I, you know, I really do believe every one of us is born with certain God given gifts. And part of the role of education in my mind is to allow people to discover those gifts and develop them. For me, I think the gift and the calling to leadership was just something that I was born with, but it wasn't. I was not raised in a big political family. Kevin. My, as I said, my mom was a, you know, Catholic Democrat born on the south side of Chicago to immigrant parents. My dad was a small business owner who had very little use for lawyers or politicians. So I tell people. I'm sure I'm a great source of pride to my dad to this day, but for me, it really came. It really came from youthful inspiration. But things began to change when my philosophy of government hardened. I will tell you that people talk about how my faith has affected my politics. Very early on, after I came to Christ and I read those verses in the Bible that say, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you and see I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life so so that you and your children may live. I grew increasingly uncomfortable with being active in the party of abortion, and that really helped facilitate and move me in the direction of the philosophy of government and the agenda that really in many ways Ronald Reagan minted for the Republican Party in his election in 1980.
- [09:05]
B
Well, when did your opinions shift into a real sense of calling and mission that you would run for office? What prompted you in 1988 to seek the congressional nomination at age 29 to run for the House of Representatives?
- [09:23]
A
Well, for me, I always thought I would have a career in the law and maybe after 20 years someday step forward and run for office. But when Karen and I were first married, we started to get involved in the local Republican Party in Indianapolis and volunteering at the precinct level and meeting people. And it was in a conversation in 1987 where I had a friend to this day here in Indiana who said to me, so why are you working so hard at all of this? What do you want to do? And I said very shyly, well, I someday I want to run for Congress in, in my hometown. And it's one of the things I always tell young people where I, I teach a little bit on campuses around the country. I always say you got to speak your dreams and whatever they are, even if you're a little nervous about, about how people might react, you've got to speak your dreams. And when I did that, it started a conversation with local Republicans who said, here's a 28 year old guy who seems reasonably grounded in his Republican values and principles. And they encouraged me to run and I jumped in and somehow won the Republican nomination when I was 29 and went on to come pretty close to being elected in 1988, much less so in 1990. We lost pretty badly, in fact, had a lot of lessons to learn and It'd be another 10 years before I would be elected to Congress. But that's how it all started. A whole lot sooner, Kevin, for me than I ever thought it would.
- [11:05]
B
Well, let's talk a little bit more about that. And obviously a lot of time has passed since then. But as I say, I knew people who were big fans of yours who were working for you. I mentioned before there was a terrific supporter of yours, Mildred Reeves in Columbus, Indiana. She just thought you were the, the best and very disappointed that you fell short in 1988. And then 1990, of course, was a tough year. So those are two big setbacks at an early age. And you said you didn't have that much political experience before then. So how, how were you feeling then? I mean, you were, you were, did not run again to be part of the 1994 Republican you know, wave that Newt Gingrich led. You were elected later. How did you feel in 1990, election night?
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A
Well, we were deeply disappointed. But as I wrote about in my first book, which is entitled so Help Me God, I came to the end of that campaign. And I hadn't just lost an election. I'd really lost a lot of self respect. I'd allowed myself to become caught up in what's become very commonplace these days, and that is the politics of personal destruction. Where my opponent attacked me personally, I attacked them back personally. And our campaign really devolved into what some people called the most negative, divisive congressional campaign in modern Indiana history. It was in the aftermath of that that I began to reflect very deeply on what my faith requires of me. Because when you read the Golden Rule to do unto others, you'd have them do unto you. And that there's no political exception to that. We're supposed to treat one another the ways that we would want to be treated. And I knew I'd come short in that. I ended up later in 1991, writing an essay entitled Confessions of a Negative Campaigner, in which I basically told the citizens of my district and ultimately people around the state, that I'd fallen short first of what my faith required of me, and that I regretted that. And I also regretted that I'd spent my brief moment in the sun being caught up in personal acrimony instead of advancing issues that were important to the state and important to the country. And so we took a half step back and really had that next 10 years to really mint a very clear sense of what our conservative philosophy required of us, but more importantly, of what our faith would require of us if we ever had the chance to run again.
- [14:01]
B
Well, I want to jump ahead to 2000 in this next stage, but before we walk away from this or move away from this, I was actually just speaking to a friend of yours last night who brought up the very thing about how you looked at the 1990 campaign and how you regretted taking that course. That's a tough space in politics. We see it a lot today. It's a slippery slope where the end justifies the means in people's minds. Tell me a little bit more. Tell us a little bit more about just how your faith challenged you, about how you had been behaving.
- [14:34]
A
You know, I'd started in politics, you know, with a great deal of idealism, but I think it was Rocky Graziano that says that every prize fighter has a fight plan until they get hit. And when we got hit, Instead of responding in a manner consistent with my faith, we just responded in kind. And as I said, it was what my late father would have called a good learning experience. And it really minted in me a conviction that if I ever had the chance to run for office again, which wouldn't come for another decade, that we'd first want to run a campaign that would honor God in the way that we carried ourselves and the way we dealt with others. And secondly, that we'd make the campaign about things more important than our own election and put winning after all of that. I'm a very competitive person. I like to win as much as the next guy. But making sure that you're running in such a way that honors God informs the debate. Those were the lessons I drew from those years.
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B
All right, well, let's jump ahead to 2000. You were elected. Thank goodness. Again, those of us who are fans of yours and been watching you, we're glad to see you come to Washington. You quickly rose into the ranks of leadership, House Republican Study Committee and then later House Republican Conference Chairman. These were the years of George W. Bush, a good man, a patriotic man. Tough times for the country. September 11th. But you showed a willingness to challenge or not capitulate on some tough things. I mean, you always spoke out about spending on, but also on no Child Left behind, the prescription drug bill. What some people today especially consider to be some expansions of government that went way, way too far. Could you tell us a little bit about that? I mean, to be fair, the reason I was especially excited to have you on the Going Big podcast is your willingness to stay true to your principles and to speak truth to power. So I want to open this up a little bit. Tell us a bit about that.
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A
Well, you know, for me, you can't understand what I think was just God's grace working in my life and the independent conservative stands that we've taken. If you don't understand how long it took me to get to Congress, I would often tell people in some of those early days when we would be bucking the big spenders in the Republican Party, including a Republican president, that I said, look, I said, it took me 12 years to get here, and, you know, I'm going to do what I told people that I would do if I ever got here, which in the interim, Kevin, as you you may remember, I was. I actually made a living as a talk radio show host. I usually. I usually tell people. I know I don't seem that interesting, but I used to do three hours of radio A day all over the state of Indiana. And I articulated a commitment to the conservative agenda that really Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater personified. And so for me, it was about keeping faith with that, about making sure that I tell people. When they'd say, well, how do you figure out how to vote? And the White House telling you one thing, leadership telling you another, I would often say just. I'd say, just vote right and go home for dinner, man. Just do what you told people you'd do if you ever got here. And that, to me is what, especially in the House of Representatives, what that representative democracy element of our Constitution contemplates is that that House of Representatives is with. It's the. It's the boiling cauldron of the will of the American people. And the people of eastern Indiana had sent this unapologetic conservative to Washington, D.C. and I was just determined to let my yes be yes and my no be no and remain that person. And by God's great kindness, we were able to serve in the Congress for 12 years and then come home and serve as governor of Indiana, never imagining I'd have the opportunity to serve as vice president. But. But all along the way, my first priority always was, as I said, to honor God in the way that we carried ourselves, the way we dealt with others. But secondly, just to stand on principle, even if it meant standing alone.
- [19:19]
B
Well, thank you. I'd like to dive in a little bit more for. I mean, the pressures that people who are elected face. It's very frustrating to most voters. Why? We think we elect somebody and they go to Washington and they turn out to be something different. Our friend Morton Blackwell often talks about, you know, it's tough to understand when you're supporting somebody, are they loyal to principle or are they loyal to the source of personal advancement? And, you know, again, it's a slippery slope. Why do you think people who would share your principles shift when they go to Washington or into elected office? Or did they have those principles in the first place?
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A
Well, I think no one knows someone's heart or their mind. And certainly there would be some people that. And I saw this on both sides of the aisle that clearly carried themselves at home on one agenda and then came to Washington and were really about something else. But I think that for those that come to Washington, D.C. and experience the pressure, it's one of the reasons why I was so grateful for the House Conservative Caucus that I had the privilege of chairing. You referred to it. It's called the Republican Study Committee. The Bible says Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I just immediately began to attend the regular meetings of the conservatives on the floor of the Congress. And it was there that I found encouragement. And I think I was able to be an encouragement, particularly to some of the younger men and women who were coming in. Just because people think that the real battles are the battles across the aisle, and they are real, make no mistake about it. And we battled. I battled when the Democrats were in minorities, I battled them when they were in the majority. And I know what that's all about from the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue as well. But the real difficult battles are in the family. The real hard stuff is to look at people who, whether they be in the Congress or in the executive branch that are your friends, that are people who have been in the battle with you, and say to them, this far and no farther, it's just not what I came here to do. But in my experience, when people sense that you're acting on principle and that this isn't just an angle to work some future angle, I found there was a high degree of respect ultimately extended to you. If people think you're playing politics, they're sharp elbows in the political process. But if they sense that you're actually acting on conviction, I think nine times out of 10, you'll ultimately see people yield to that and find some other way, hopefully coming in your direction on policy. You know, until very recently, the longest vote in the history of the Congress was during the vote on expanding the Medicare prescription drug entitlement. And I'll never forget, the speaker of the House came up to me. They had held the vote open for three hours. And the speaker of the House at that time, Dennis Hastert, walked up to me on the floor, seeing me as something of a ringleader of the opposition. So I saw it as just a massive expansion of the entitlement state at a time it was, and it was. But he came up to me and he said, mike, we're going to need you on this vote. And I said, Mr. Speaker, I said, if you put a means test in that bill, I said, I'll vote for it. I said, I just. I didn't come here to provide free medicine to my mother, who since my father passed away has bought a new car every year just to change the different to a different color. I said, I'm not. Not gonna. You know, not gonna grow the welfare state, but if it's for people at the point of the need, I didn't want anybody choosing between medicine and. And Food, for heaven's sakes. But this massive one size fits all entitlement made no sense to me. But I remember he, at that point, could see that I was, you know, I was standing on principle but engaging him nonetheless. And so they moved on and they found other ways to get the bill passed. But I honestly think when you stand on principle, and I saw a member of the US Senate just this last week who took a firm stand on criminal investigation of the Fed chair, Senator Thom Tillis simply said he was going to use the leverage of his vote on the committee that would confirm the new chairman of the Federal Reserve and say, until you resolve this issue and close this investigation, we're not moving forward. And the White House ultimately relented because he was standing on that principle. And so that's been my experience. But it's, so it's, it's being around other colleagues who share your values and principles that can, that can hold your arms up, but also it's just letting your yes be yes and your no be no, and, and trusting that at the end of the day, the men and women who serve around you and the leadership in, in the Congress and in the executive branch will ultimately respect that.
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B
Well, you know, I had Senator Phil Graham on here, the Going Big podcast earlier. He's a big fan of yours, Jeb Hensarling, Pat Toomey, these other very principled people. I knew that you were reliable and consistent. But, you know, when you stood up to or resisted the pushes from Republican leadership, yet you ultimately then were elected to leadership. You were the number three position as the House Republican Conference Chairman later. But let's now move further forward. So you finished this time in Washington. You went back to Indiana, you served as governor of Indiana. And then in 2016, Donald Trump, the Republican nominee for President of the United States, tapped you to be his running mate, which was of great assurance to many conservatives who were concerned about Trump on a number of issues and principles. But also a number of us were also concerned, like, oh, my gosh, what did Mike Pence do? Is he sold out? How does he do that? So if you wouldn't mind, tell us, what were you, how did you process that request to join the ticket? And think about it in the ensuing
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A
months, despite the fact that my daughter said when we got the call to be considered for vice president, my daughter, like daughters do, sometimes said, well, dad, we all saw this coming. You know, I never saw it coming. I had, as the president, often in a good natured way, reminded me over our four and a Half years together. I actually endorsed another candidate in the Republican primary, just, just hewing again to my conservative roots. I didn't, I didn't know Donald Trump, I didn't know a lot about his agendas. And I endorsed Ted Cruz, who I knew was a solid conservative. And I often remind people that, you know, when the Indiana primary came around, Ted did win all three of the counties I campaigned with him in, Kevin. And Donald Trump won the other 90. So he was a juggernaut. And frankly, I was impressed with the connection that Donald Trump was making with people across the state of Indiana. It wasn't just a political movement. He was tapping deeply into frustration, I think, of, of people in this state and around the country who, after I joined the techa, the way I'd express it is that there were a lot of people across this country that were just tired of being told, tired of being told that this is as good as it gets. Tired of being told that our kids futures aren't going to be as good as ours, and tired of being told that our values were antiquated and no longer acceptable in a modern era. And I think Donald Trump really, really tapped into that frustration that Ronald Reagan probably best expressed when he said that a little intellectual elite in a far distant capital can plan our lives better for us than we can plan them ourselves. There was frustration with Washington and with a liberal establishment. And so when I got the call, I said to him, to a mutual friend, I said, well, look it, this was late June, the Republican convention was mid July. And I said, I said I'd really need to know two things before we could say whether we'd want to be considered because I had to give up running for re election as governor if I was added to the ticket. And I was very much enjoying and making progress in our, in our role as governor of Indiana. But I said two things. I said, number one, we, we need to know them better. Because I, I'd met him once in his office in New York, but not more than in passing. And I said, secondly, I'd really like to know what the job description is because only one person writes the job description for vice president every four years. And, and I, I remember I told the friend that called, I said, well, you know, I'll understand if that's kind of an unreasonable request. There's not much time before the convention. So, you know, please tell Mr. Trump, don't be offended, but that's probably what we do. They called back the next day and said not only was he not offended, but he loved your answer, and he'd like you to come to Bedminster this weekend with your family and spend time with him and his family. We went and spent the better part of a long weekend there, and we talked very deeply about where he wanted to go with the country. We talked very deeply about the role of the vice president. And Karen and I spent time with him and Melania and really came away both comfortable with an easy rapport we had with them from the beginning. But also I was comfortable with the agenda that ultimately was the agenda that we governed on, which was that conservatives to our courts, tax relief for Americans, a strong defense. And in the midst of all that, he made it clear that he wanted an active vice president, active on Capitol Hill, active around the country, and active representing the country around the world. And that was certainly a promise that he kept and then some.
- [31:06]
B
Well, you know, as somebody who lives inside the Beltway or just outside the Beltway, but still close enough in Washington, D.C. i certainly missed what was going on at the depth and intensity in the country in 2016 that you saw out in the heartland in Indiana. And you all ultimately spoke to and answered the frustration of a lot of Americans. But I would suggest, too, with the death of Justice Scalia, you're being put on the ticket as the nominal leader of the conservative movement in the United States. It was the assurance that was necessary for conservatives ultimately to support the ticket that brought about that election victory that was pretty close. And you went on to chair the lead. The transition had a tremendous influence on a lot of policy in the first administration and a lot of personnel. But let's go to the very end of that. On January 6th, you had another moment that was a lot tougher than the no Child Left behind or the prescription drug bill vote. There's a lot of pressure put on you to support a different decision. And again, this is, I mean, you, in my judgment, a lot of people's judgment were willing to speak truth to power. Could you just comment a little bit on that and just help us understand? I mean, it wasn't easy.
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A
Well, you know, I'll always be proud of the record of the Trump Pence administration. And in those four and a half years, President Trump was not just my president, he was my friend. Which made those days, at the end, Kevin, even more difficult because we had forged a very good working relationship. We're very different men. Obviously, our backgrounds, the way we came carry ourselves publicly, are very different. But we had a rapport. And I also tell you that during our four and a Half years together, I also developed the kind of relationship where I always felt I was able to reach the president until those final days. It'll always be a mystery to me this side of heaven, why I wasn't able to reach him in those final days. But during our four years together at the White House, I made a practice of never expressing my position on any decision that he was facing until we were alone. I had a great sense that the vice President's role in an administration is different than anybody else's role. And absent a moral or constitutional issue, the vice President, I believed, owed the President his best counsel in private once. And then when the President made the decision, it was my job to walk out and say that was the right decision because he'd been elected president, and I wanted to defer to the collective judgment of the American people and to the office that I was serving in. At the end, when it began to percolate online some weeks after the election, that somehow I, as vice President, would have the authority to choose which Electoral college votes to count and which to reject or return to the states, I really dismissed it out of hand. The president asked me to look at it. He said he had some scholars that were telling him I had some authority. I said, Mr. President, if you want us to look at it, we'll look at it. But I just. I could never conceive that the founders would ever have intended to give any one person the power to choose the American President. The American presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone. And it was very early on that I began to convey to the president. President, sometime around Christmas, that I thought my duty was clear, that I'd taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution. And under the constitution, especially the 12th amendment, the only role of the vice President is to preside over a joint session of Congress where the Electoral college votes certified by the states are opened and counted. No more, no less. No vice president in American history had ever asserted any authority beyond that. And I had made it clear to the President over Christmas and in the early days of January that I intended to do my duty. But somewhere along the way, Kevin, he just surrounded himself with a handful of advisors, not the folks in the White House, not his Attorney General, who literally resigned over the controversies that were being raised around the election. But White House Counsel and others around the President told him that my position was correct. But there was a. There was a group of outside counselors that were telling him, as the Bible says, quote, what. What his itching ears wanted to Hear. And that ultimately resulted in the confrontation that took place on the evening of January 5th, the morning of January 6th. I will say I never imagined that the violence that ensued that day was even remotely possible. I have great affection to this day for people in our movement who are law abiding, hard working, patriotic, respectful people. People I'd been seeing at rallies since the days of the Tea party back in 2009 and 10. Never, never imagined to me that some people would, would engage in violence against law enforcement officers and vandalism at the Capitol building. But, you know, I'll always believe that we did our duty that day to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution. And I believe it was by God's grace and by the heroism of law enforcement that made that possible. Last thought was just. I've always said, I hope someday that that day of tragedy will actually be remembered as a triumph of freedom. When we reconvened on the floor of the Senate after the riot was quelled, I used those words, I said, as a world watch, they're going to witness the resilience of our institutions. Because at the end of the day, despite the President's reckless words that day, despite the violence that ensued at the Capitol, every member of the House and Senate in both political parties returned on the very same day to complete their work under the Constitution. And we weathered the storm we saw to the peaceful transfer of power. And I'll never have any other view.
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B
Did you see it as a constitutional question or a moral question or both?
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A
Well, I saw it. The Constitution to me was very clear, but at the end of the day, it was a moral issue for me because I had taken an oath with my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible and my right hand in the air surrounded by my family, to support and defend the Constitution. And it ended with a prayer, so help me God. That's why I made that the title of my autobiography. Because for me, ultimately, and I hope I live this way, it's ultimately about an audience of one. It's about, you know, Psalm 15 says, he keeps his oath even when it hurts. I know something about that. But, you know, at the end of the day, the fabric of our country is made up of generations of Americans, overwhelmingly who've done so wearing the uniform of the United States, but generations of Americans who've kept that oath. And as we mark the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, I think the destiny of our country is tied up in us remembering that going forward and also being confident that as we sit here at this very hour, there are thousands of Americans in harm's way overseas, in the Middle east who are keeping their oath and facing much greater challenges than I'll ever live to face.
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B
All right. Well, let's now talk about the future. You mentioned America's 250th. It's not a look back, it's a look forward. You've got this book coming out on June 2nd, what conservatives believe. Having served as vice president of the United States, member of Congress, governor of Indiana, but vice president of the United States, you could be like, time to retire. I'm done. But you're not. You're committed to the future of the country, and you're committed to these principles. Tell us first what you're trying to do through Advancing American Freedom, the organization you founded, and what you're hoping to accomplish with this book.
- [41:04]
A
We started Advancing American Freedom right after we left the White House five years ago. And we meant to create a home for traditional conservatism, the conservatism that drew me to the Republican Party. Strong defense, American leadership in the world, less government, less taxes, traditional moral values. And we've assembled a team that went through some rapid growth here at the first of the year as we literally doubled in size as some of the leading conservative scholars in Washington, D.C. have been coming our way. But I wrote the book largely because I wanted people to know that while the great contest of ideas in America has been between right and left for generations now, that increasingly, while that battle between the right and the Republican Party and the progressive left, increasingly more radical progressive left in the Democratic Party goes on, that there's a new fault line within Republican ranks that I think Republicans face a new time of choosing whether we're going to stay on the path of the traditional conservative principles that have always defined our party for the last half century, or whether we're going to follow the siren song of populism on more to conservative progress principles. And there are loud voices in and out of government, some of which have been able to influence the new Trump administration in ways that are taking our party and our movement far afield from those traditional conservative underpinnings. And where we've always been the party of a strong defense. And we see America as leader of the free world, the arsenal of democracy, their rising chorus of isolationist voices in the Republican Party. I write about that in my book where. Where we've always been a party committed to low taxes, including low tariffs and free trade. Now, as we witnessed the president impose unilateral tariffs on friend and foe alike until the Supreme Court stepped in and use the Constitution to turn him back. And most poignantly to me is while we've been a pro life party and the, the party of the sanctity of life throughout most of my adult lifetime, and now we have voices from the administration on down that are marginalizing the right to life in our party, suggesting it's only a state issue. So I felt inspired to simply put together a book that described first and foremost, what those principles are and secondly, to juxtapose them against those cross currents on the left and on the populous right. And I'm looking forward to traveling the country and engaging in a great debate because I do think as people look to the future, Kevin, I think it's going to be more important for us to, to figure out what we're for before we decide who we're for in the next presidential election. I think Republicans ought to do a lot of soul searching. Look, I make the point. I know Donald Trump better than his most ardent defenders know him, okay? And he is not ideological. In fact, he often bristled when I would refer to policies as conservative. He would, with a wave of a hand, say to me, that's just common sense. But now, as you see the stops and starts on our support for Ukraine under this administration, nationalizing American businesses, unilateral tariffs, price controls on everything from pharmaceuticals to credit cards, all of this gives, I think, should create a backdrop for a very healthy debate over whether we're going to stay moving in the direction on these issues that President Trump has led our party or whether we're going to reground ourselves back to those timeless conservative principles, I think, that have always made not only our party successful, but more importantly, have made America strong and prosperous and free.
- [45:33]
B
Well, you hit on the ideas of economic freedom, limited government freedom, free enterprise, free trade, free exchange, rule of law. These were Reaganized principles, Goldwater principles. It does seem like President Trump is more like President Nixon on a lot of economic issues. But let's talk real quickly before we close on America's role in the world today, whether it is with respect to China or our longtime alliance with Israel. How do you just sort of see the future? I know this is very personal to you. You have a son and a son in law who serve in the armed forces. How do you see America's role into the future?
- [46:15]
A
America is the indispensable leader of the free world. As I, as I traveled the globe as vice president, my one takeaway sitting down with heads of state is that if America is not leading the free world, the free world is not being led. And so continuing to embrace that role at a time when China continues its military provocations in the Asia Pacific, its human rights abuses, its theft of intellectual property, standing firm there, standing up to Russian aggression in Eastern Europe, believing that if, if Vladimir Putin somehow overruns Ukraine, Kevin, I have no doubt, just be a matter of time before he crosses a border that we're going to have to deal with him. And then maybe most poignantly and most urgently, is continuing to confront and take the fight directly to the leading state sponsor of terrorism and stand without apology, with our most cherished ally, Israel. One the of. One of the most troubling developments on the American right of late has been suddenly we saw the emergence of anti Semitism on the radical left in the Congress and beyond. But now we've seen voices that are not only anti Israel, but openly antisemitic emerging on the populist right. And those all have to be rejected along with the isolationism that is the backdrop and an argument for their darker motivations. So I do think it's an enormously important time. This is a conversation that we've got to have. The Republican Party has been in the last 75 years, the bulwark of a strong national defense and of American leadership on the world stage and for a peaceful and prosperous 21st century. We need to embrace that role. We need to have our allies live up to their commitments to our common defense. But that only happens if America continues to be the leader of the free world and to be that beacon of freedom and hope for all mankind.
- [48:39]
B
Well, to close us out, let's say there's an 18 or 20 year old young person listening, somebody like Mike Pence, many years ago on a college campus or elsewhere. What would you say to them? Because they're getting lots of crazy information and conflicting ideas and it's not the same kind of stuff that we had with respect to Buckley, Goldwater and Reagan. What would you say to somebody at that age listening about how they might think about the future with respect to these principles?
- [49:07]
A
Yeah, just, you know, I was, and as I've been candid on this conversation, I had a lot to learn even after I came to faith in Christ. I made my share of mistakes in politics. I always tell young people, take this time in your life, don't be in as big a hurry as I was in when I was in my 20s. Take this time in your life to develop the qualities of heart and mind that will prepare you to be the leader that your community, your state and this nation needs. And that is study our Constitution, study the Declaration, study the American founding, read the great works of Russell Kirk and the great thinkers of the conservative movement over the years, and you'll be inspired by it. And you'll understand what's made this country truly exceptional. And secondly, develop the habits of integrity. People follow people they trust. And so becoming a man or woman of integrity, for me, that all begins with faith. It all begins with my relationship with God and the support that I have among family and friends. But I'd say to any young person, the nation needs you. They need you at this time in your life to prepare for leadership. And then when the time is right and you'll know it's right, you'll step forward and you'll provide both the integrity and the insistent vision that has always served our nation so well. And I'm confident will again.
- [50:36]
B
Well, Vice President Mike Pence, what a pleasure and honor again to have you today. Thank you. Continue to speak out. We're going to invite you back in a few years when you can continue to keep us well grounded.
- [50:47]
A
Thank you, Kevin. Great to be with you.
- [50:50]
B
Great to be with you. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.