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- [00:00]
Kevin Gentry
Hi there. I'm Kevin Gentry, and welcome to the Going Big podcast, where we'll explore some of the strategies that can help you transform your effectiveness by 10xing your fundraising. Each week, we'll sit down with some of the most influential business leaders, CEOs, and nonprofit visionaries to talk about leadership, the power of giving, and how you can make a real impact. If you want to make a transformational change to the cause you're working on, this is the place for that conversation. Also, take a Look at our website, 10xStrategies.com that's T E N X strategies.com for lots of free marketing and fundraising resources. And be sure to sign up for the free weekly fundraising tips. Now, let's dive in. Well, ladies and gentlemen, so pleased to be back with you again today with Dr. Clay Rutledge, really one of the world's foremost experts on the psychology of nostalgia. But more importantly, I think, is the theme for today the power of nostalgia as a force for good. So, Clay, it's always great to be with you. I'm so pleased that we could do this, especially at this time of the year. Could you start us off? What is nostalgia?
- [01:26]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yes, and thank you, Kevin. It's great to. It's great to be here as well. So you can think about nostalgia as a combination of emotion, like it's a feeling, right? Like when someone says they're nostalgic, that there's a sentimental feeling that pulls at their heartstrings, Right? But it also involves memory. So it's feelings we have about specific memories or like generalized, like memories about the past, like the times from the past that we tend to associate with being personally cherished or meaningful. So nostalgic memories are our special memories and the feelings wrapped around those special memories.
- [02:08]
Kevin Gentry
Well, the history of nostalgia, which I think is fascinating, tell us a little bit about the meaning of the term, its derivation. And is it true that people thought initially that nostalgia was some sort of mental illness? Is that true?
- [02:26]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
It's, it's, it's, it's even better than that. They thought it was a brain disease, perhaps of demonic cause. So you, you fast forward to today, right? Or even, you know, like the modern era, where we think about nostalgic advertising and think about. Go back to 1688, when the term was first coined by a Swiss physician to combine these two words, the. The nostos, which means homecoming or to return, and alos, which means pain or sorrow or like a. A painful longing. So nostalgia, the. The word, you know, means like, this kind of like longing for something that's pain, you know, that from the past to. To return to something in the past. But it's. It's painful, it's sad, it's difficult. Now, I should say that 1688, that's when the word was coined. If you look back in literature even 3,000 years to, like, Homer's Odyssey, you see the idea of nostalgia expressed, right? You see this, like, longing to return, this motivational power of trying to get to one's home, to one's loved one, loved ones. It's this prominent theme throughout literature, throughout history. But it wasn't until 1688 that we had a word for it. But what's funny, as you pointed out, when that word came about, it wasn't a positive thing. What the Swiss physician thought was. He was. He was observing these Swiss. They were really like, you know, you might consider, like, mercenaries that were being recruited to fight wars in the plains of Europe. They were coming down from their Alpine homes and fighting wars in the plains of Europe. And they were presenting with all these, like, medical symptoms. Sadness, loss of appetite, insomnia, fever, even fatigue. And what they thought was, oh, these guys were also singing songs and telling stories about their homeland, right? So what the physicians thought is, oh, that stuff that they're talking about from home, that nostalgia they're feeling from home is making them sick. It's an illness. And, you know, so originally that was the idea, and it was confined to Swiss mercenaries. Like, this was a Swiss affliction. So then, you know, it's great, it's content. You know, this. This guy, Johannes Hofer, like, who coined the term, who came up with that original idea. He proposed that. And then some of his. Some of the other, like, peers at the time were like, yeah, it's definitely a medical disease, but they had other ideas. Like, well, maybe it has something to do with the clanging of cowbells. It causes damage to the middle ear. And it's. You. There was all these great, like, speculations about nostalgic. Well, like I said, perhaps even having a demonic origin. And that. That persisted for a little while. But of course, like, these physicians never found any bodily, like, indicator that nostalgia was an actual disease. It's not like they were cutting out parts of the body, being like, oh, I thought we found the nostalgia. So they kind of abandoned it. And then what happened is in. In the 1900s, really, like, when you started to see the rise of psychology in the mid 20th century, the idea came back. But this time, instead of it being a brain disease, it was a mental disease. And they also thought things like, wild things like, oh, maybe it's people's immaturity and they're yearning to even return to the womb, perhaps, or it's this inability to grow up. And so there were all these wild ideas. And you know, even though like the, the basic idea had been abandoned by medical researchers all the way up Until World War I, I believe there were soldiers diagnosed with nostalgia as a disease. There were a bunch of Union soldiers during the Civil War that were diagnosed with, with nostalgia. So clearly it, it escaped the Swiss and it spread around the world this disease to, to anyone, to immigrants, soldiers, refugees, people separated by home who were longing from home, were presenting with this supposed disease or this mental dysfunction. Of course, we don't think of it that way now, but that was definitely. It's that it's, it's origins and yeah, there's, you know, it's just, it's a very, very wild, fascinating story.
- [06:51]
Kevin Gentry
Well, fascinating. We, well, we've got so much to talk about and I, I, I think this subject is just really extraordinary and it has a lot of consequences for us, which we'll get into. But I, I, I got to confess. Upfron sucker for nostalgia. Everybody around me knows that I am. It does seem to be a little seasonal. I do think it happens a little bit more in the fall once Labor Day passes and we kind of ease into the change of the leaves and the temperatures and at least in the, in the Northern Hemisphere and, and, and Halloween hits and then there's Thanksgiving and Christmas and, and other holidays and everything about that. It really tugs at the, at the nostalgic heartstring, so to speak. But you, I mean, you're, you're a trained psychologist. Is, is, is everyone susceptible to feelings of nostalgia?
- [07:47]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yes. So we, you know, we've done quite a bit of, of research on this. Most people feel nostalgic fairly frequently, you know, weekly, you know, several times a week. That being said, there are, there's another way to think about it. Most people are nostalgic, but there are like, personality traits. Like, most people are social, they like having friends. There are people who are more social that are more extroverted, for instance, like that. There are people that tend to be more nostalgic than others, even though we're all nostalgic at some level. And on top of that, we all tend to be more or less nostalgic at different times in our lives and in different seasons, as you pointed out, and based on different things we're going through Your observation about the fall isn't just you. We tend to become more nostalgic when the temperature gets cooler. And you know what's interesting about that is nostalgia actually makes us feel warmer. So, like one quick example of an experiment that tested this, they put people in a room, they controlled the temperature, the ambient temperature of the room with. You can control it, right? The temperature of a room, and then they set it to be colder in one room. In another room, they set it to be warmer, and then they gave people a nostalgia questionnaire. The people in the cold room felt more nostalgic than people in the warm room, suggesting coldness kind of brings it up. In addition to that, when people were in the same room with their room set at the same temperature, they asked nostalgic people to guess what the temperature of the room was versus people who weren't, you know, who didn't engage in nostalgia. The people who took a few minutes to, you know, reflect on a nostalgic memory thought the room was warmer than the people in the control condition. So, yes, in colder times of the year, we tend to become nostalgic and it actually warms us up. So it warms our hearts and it evidently warms our bodies, too.
- [09:41]
Kevin Gentry
All right, well, so it's associated with sort of a longing for the past. And sometimes we can see that in the negative. And I want to. There's a lot to talk about there, but talk about how nostalgia affects feelings of well being and self esteem and belonging, because I know you're an advocate for really seeing nostalgia as a force for good.
- [10:04]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. So, you know, going back to the historical treatment of nostalgia, where they went wrong, you know, they weren't doing science back then. They, you know, what was happening was they were observing, oh, look at these people that are suffering in some way, these soldiers, and they're singing these old. The songs from their homeland and telling stories about the homeland. Oh, that must be the cause of their suffering. They got it backwards. Right. Basically, they were suffering because they were mercenaries, far from separated from home, fighting wars in the plains of Europe, which doesn't sound great. And they were turning to nostalgia to. To comfort themselves, to remind themselves of where they're from, where their sense of meaning and purpose is, is what I think. Of course, I don't have a time machine. I can go back and say that. So. But that's in the modern science of nostalgia, when we've systematically manipulated and measured these different variables. That's what we find when people engage in nostalgic reflection, whether it's Listening to music, watching an old show, writing journaling in a diary, sharing a memory with a friend, looking through old photos. It doesn't make them sad or miserable like the Swiss soldiers. It makes them happy. It makes them more optimistic about the future. It makes them feel more loved and connected. It makes them feel, you know, around the age 40 or so, it starts to actually make us feel younger, you know, nostalgic. You know, you said you're nostalgic a lot. Well, you know, that's helping. You have a youthful spirit, keeping you young at heart. It's good for you. And so it's. Nostalgia is actually boosting well being. So what happens is, you know, what helps explain the, you know, the history of it is we've also found that when people are going through a difficult time, when they're sad, when they're lonely, when they're distressed, their nostalgia tends to increase. So we can use nostalgia, we can be nostalgic anytime for, you know, for lots of reasons, but we lean on it more when we're going through change or disruption, uncertainty or just don't know, you know, or trying to figure out what path to pursue in life. We pull from these special memories for guidance. And they don't only give us confidence, they give us a sense of perspective. So you might say, like during COVID I remember my wife and I were like, oh, we can't go to our favorite restaurants, we can't see loved ones. We're separated from people in this way and it's sad. But then we're sharing stories with each other about, you know, times we had with different people. Like, and we, that didn't make us feel bad. It didn't. It helped us step outside me, like, this won't last forever. And when this is over, we won't take, you know, maybe we've been taking for granted those opportunities, you know, the freedom we had to go out to restaurants and do things. And we shouldn't take that for granted, you know, in the future. And so those nostalgic memories inspired us to start planning, to start plotting and, you know, our future. So it's not just that nostalgia boosts our well being, which it does, and it boosts our self esteem, our self confidence, our motivation, makes us feel loved and connected, but it also like, helps push us forward to figuring out and prioritizing the things in life that will make us continue to flourish.
- [13:17]
Kevin Gentry
Really interesting, Clay. Thank you. Thank you very much. And by the way, there's another psychological concept I've heard about called rosy remembering. And that is we tend to remember more the positive of the past than the negative. So that the reflection of the past isn't necessarily accurate, but it actually, our view is a little bit more positive than reality. Is that true?
- [13:42]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
So, yeah, there's this. This concept called fading affect bias. And what it is, is, which is. We generally think of as good for us, which is negative. The emotional impact of negative experiences tends to fade faster than the emotional impact of positive experiences, which is good. In fact, when it doesn't happen, we tend. You know, people tend to be more at risk for things like depression, right? Or if they're just constantly, like, thinking about the bad things. But what that. But how that affects us in terms of nostalgia is. Think about it like if you were making a movie or something like that and you were telling a story. Because humans are smart, right? We're gifted with this great intelligence. We have the ability, like a film editor, to look back in our lives and, you know, we're not. The goal isn't to make things up, but the goal is to. Is to. Is to find the good in things. So you might have a different. We had. We collected a bunch of nostalgic memories from people in Southern England, where I lived when we were doing this research, who were children during World War II. The town. The city we lived in Southampton, 90% of it was destroyed by German bombing raids. And we collected all these nostalgic memories from these old British adults who were children at that time. They had a lot of nostalgic feelings for that time, even though it was a time of great hardship, tragedy, uncertainty. Their fathers were on the continent, you know, fighting the war. There's a lot of separation. But these memories were, you know, the. The rosy retrospection was. They weren't saying, oh, that was a great time. They were saying, it was an important time. We learned what was really important in life. We learned that life is precious, that, you know, all the things we tend to focus on aren't as important as family and loved ones and faith and the things that we care about that give our lives meaning. And we can draw on those lessons today, and that can be inspiring. So I think one of the things that's important about nostalgia is it isn't just us plucking the happy memories or even making up, making things happier than they really were. It's that kind of learning process, a creative process. Again, like a filmmaker, we might say, well, we want to tell a story here, and we want to, you know, we want. What's. How do we bring these threads of our lives together into telling the story that we. That can be a learning experience that can help us. You know, for instance, we find that most nostalgic memories follow what's called the redemptive sequence, which is they're not free of any negative experiences, but the negative experiences are overwhelmed by positive feelings. So somebody might say, had this experience, there was sadness or tragedy or loss involved, but there was also triumph over adversity. There was a reminder of what was important. Important. It's these kind of bittersweet elements of nostalgia, but particularly the redemptive feelings that I grew. I learned from this. I became a better person. I matured. I became more, you know, wise. All these things, those are the things that are most likely to make us feel nostalgic.
- [16:55]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, okay. All right. One more point along these lines. Is this correct? Someone explained to me that with respect to something like Thanksgiving, which is pretty universally celebrated in the United States, we have these positive feelings about celebrating Thanksgiving, but not necessarily in the moment. Is it as positive as our feelings about it will be? And then even soon after it occurs, our feelings are more positive about what we experienced than necessarily the reality at the moment. Is that crazy? What is that? Is that. Is that based on something that you've understood?
- [17:33]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. So again, I think part of it is. Part of what makes human like life so enriching and fulfilling and complex and rewarding is like, our ability to make sense of complex emotional situations. So at. In the moment, a Thanksgiving meal might involve stress over having a bunch of family and people over. Is the food done right? Is everything perfect? Are people fighting about that? You know, there's all these things going on in addition to the laughs and the fun, you know, there's a. There's a mix of positive and negatives that it's kind of hard to organize or make sense of in the moment because you're just living it. You're just getting, you know, getting through it. And there certainly are points of, you know, points where you can savor and enjoy and all of that, but after the fact, this. I'm not saying people are consciously doing, you know, they're not setting. They're consciously doing this. But what your brain does is it wants to make sense of this. It wants to weave together a narrative that can kind of like, how was that experience on the whole, holistically? And that's. And that's where you're right. It's like we. That's when we're able to step outside of it and be like, oh, okay, like we Pulled it off, we did it. I mean, another example would be, it's not Thanksgiving is like, think about doing something actually very difficult or unpleasant that is physically demanding, like running a marathon. Now, in the moment, if you were able to survey people at mile 10 or mile 18 or whatever, how they're feeling, they're going to be like, everything hurts. I don't want to quit. This is miserable. Now if you ask them the next day, they're going to feel a great sense of accomplishment. They did it. They made it. It was a, you know, they achieved their goal. And so I think a lot of, I'm not saying Thanksgiving exactly like that, but a lot of the things we care deeply about that we put a lot of work into that can be difficult and sometimes chaotic and have emotional ups and downs are extremely rewarding, you know, and. But it takes a little bit of that perspective after the fact to fully appreciate it. But that's a good example of how banking these kinds of memories is so motivating because it helps us see when we're planning for future experiences, what are the ones that, after the fact, what are the ones which have really been most rewarding to us? Because you can think of other experiences that might just be more fun at some technical level, but not as enriching, not as meaningful. And so that, I just think that's an interesting part of the human experience is like, a lot of times we tend to talk about like, or it's popular in popular culture, like, to talk about, like, focusing on positive emotions and fun and happiness and all that. And definitely that's true. We want people to be happy. But there are these emotionally complex and rich experiences that involve adventure, uncertainty, emotional ups and downs, sadness, you know, loss. These are the things that often make life meaningful. And a lot of our most cherished memories involve some of those, you know, some of those elements, bittersweet elements.
- [20:41]
Kevin Gentry
Interesting. I think it was Jonathan Edwards, you know, the great minister, religious leader of the early Americas, who had that point about how we'll never really appreciate the heights of the mountain until we go through the deepest, lowest parts of the valleys. And maybe there's an analogous point, point there. All right, so changing gears a little bit, business. Commercial marketers have long understood the power of nostalgia. You know, perhaps one of the, the most vivid examples of that is in the show Mad Men and that famous episode Carousel, where the Kodak carousel projector. And the whole idea is based on the, the pain of nostalgia. But, but marketers get this. What, what, what, what, what's your comment on, on that aspect. And then we're going to touch into some other aspects of society and touch into the elements of. Of nonprofit charitable efforts and gratitude. But. But first, the commercial space.
- [21:49]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. You know, I think it's in that Mad Men clip that you're referring to that he says something like. Because the carousel, it's not a spaceship, it's a time machine. And you know, one of the things, again, like, I'm over here cheerleading, like the, like the intellectual capacities of humans and how that. How that's so great. But one of the things, one of our unique abilities is to mentally time travel, right? You and I can sit here and share experiences from our past, and we can even think about ideas and goals for the future. And I think one of the things advertisers and marketers understand. Well, first of all, they understand, because there's lots of research on this, that people tend to aesthetically like products from their youth. Like, there's something about the time when we're really becoming ourselves, like, you know, developing our own goals. We're not. Our parents aren't just telling us what to do. We're, like, figuring out our own life, choosing our own relationships, our own path and priorities and all that. There's something about that time. I don't really know why, but some. Maybe something to do with brain development in which we're. We kind of lock into, like, the, the aesthetic, the fashions, the music, the movies for, you know. In this research, for instance, advertisers found that men think the cars from their teenage years are the best cars, you know, right. Aesthetically, like, they're not saying they're technically superior cars, they're just saying they like that style. So advertisers understand that there's some kind of pull of what's sometimes referred to as the reminiscence bump from our youth, that we. We like things that remind us of our youth. In addition to that, what I think advertisers and marketers are increasingly appreciating is that a lot of products or media content or things that we're purchasing or consuming that make us feel nostalgic. That product is often like a connection point or a symbol for something deeper. So somebody might. When you listen to. Think about music, when you listen to a song that makes you nostalgic, chances are it's reminding you of people you were with. If you like classic cars or something like that, you feel nostalgic for them. Chances are there's a story behind that of you worked on these cars in the garage with your dad. And it's about a relationship. So even our relationships with products that marketers are, you know, are trying to build advertising for are really, deep down relationships with people. Years ago, this reporter from the Wall Street Journal called me to. She was working on a piece, but she was also like, it was a little bit of me search. Because she was like, clay, why am I online trying to buy all these antique dishes that my mom actually tried to give me, but I didn't want them when I was a young woman because I was like, I don't want these old lady dishes. And my. And now my mom's gone and I'm trying to find these dishes. Why? So, you know, there's a lot of, like, objects, like products, like things that like, they, they connect us to those deeper memories. And so I think advertisers, you know, understand that companies understand that, that we have relationships with brands in part because those brands are woven into our, our lives and the relationships in our lives. So the more advertisers, you know, understand that and appreciate that it's not just a superficial thing. There's something deeper to our connection with brands and products. I think the more nostalgia that they can understand, how to use nostalgia in a way that, you know, aligns their interests with the interests of consumers.
- [25:37]
Kevin Gentry
Fascinating. Yeah. I remember my growing up. One, I think they were called the shiny bright Christmas ornaments, which were produced after World War II and were kind of like at a, you know, five and dime store. And my mom even wanting to give them away to us and none of us wanted them. And now we all want them today because it reminds us of growing up at that particular time. And I even went to our local Starbucks this morning. I told you I'm a sucker for all this kind of stuff. And, you know, today was the free cup reusable cup day. And you know, you could get a, you know, cinnamon spice pumpkin lot, whatever it was, and it's all wrapped up into the same thing. And the local Starbucks was a mob scene. It's like, why? Well, it's. Anyway, all right, let's shift gears to a different but similar subject. The National Retail Federation estimates that Americans spent nearly $12 billion this year on Halloween trick or treating. Candy, decorations and costumes. Mind boggling number. And we've seen it just grow in terms of how much is out there. Is it true? Okay, so the, the, the, the amazing. It's a great pumpkin Charlie Brown peanut special from the 1960s. Nearly 60 years old. Maybe 60 years old. Is it true? As I'VE understood that baby boomers were so affected by that, especially with respect to nostalgic memories, that they have driven most of the purchases tied to the celebration of Halloween. Much of the celebration of Halloween, in terms of pumpkins and pumpkin patches and the costumes and things tie back to that peanut special. Is that, is that true? Is that possible?
- [27:32]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
I think there's truth in that. In addition to that, it's more than that. So older generations, there's an intergenerational component of nostalgia. Older generation pass down those memories, often directly by like, you know, you sit there with, you're like, I'm gonna watch this. I'm gonna have my child and grandchild watch the Charlie Round special. So it's like, you know, people are rewatching that, but also through, like, the sharing of those memories. You know, one thing that I think you'll find interesting, you know, we're working on this project on historical nostalgia. So historical nostalgia is different than personal nostalgia, which is what we've been talking about, like our memories, you know, from our past. Historical nostalgia is nostalgia for a past before your time. So there are people that are interested in all sorts of, whether it's architecture or fashion or art or just history that feel a sentimental attachment to a time before then. Something that we found recently in some surveys and is also. You're seeing this in purchasing trends is Gen Z, like the young. Young adults who really grew up in, you know, the age of the Internet, who are often referred to as digital natives, are driving a lot of historical nostalgia trends. So they're into things that are from before their time, which I think this connects to your baby boomer point about there. They're looking for connection with older generations and how life was like before them. And, you know, there's this intergenerational component of nostalgia that makes it very contagious. So, for instance, if you in, in studies, if you have young people read the nostalgic memories from older people, you collect stories from older people, give them the young people, have them read them. It makes them nostalgic too, even though they aren't their memories. So this is often how culture works. We pass things down from general traditions and rituals and customs down from generation to generation. And, you know, that can help drive some of these trends, like the Halloween one. But, you know, thinking about the Gen Z thing, one of the things that's. I think it's neat if you look at things that are growing in popularity. Vinyl records, CDs, physical books, hobbies like roller skating, things that are about an Analog past, an in person past, live experiences. A lot of these are being driven by young people who didn't grow up like that. And what. So if you look at the model of nostalgia that we do as psychology, that I've done as a psychologist, what you can, what you can think of is like, oftentimes some people aren't satisfied or they're looking for direction, which we're, all of us are not satisfied at some level. It's part of the human condition to never be 100% satisfied, which helps us advanced things, right? We're like, okay, we'll tinker with that a little bit. We can improve that a little bit more. We can make that TV bigger. We can make this food taste better. Like, we're always looking for improvement. Well, we look to the past, you know, it seems counterintuitive, but when we're looking a way to build a better future, we look to the past. And so I think what's happening, I think this is encouraging considering all the problems that young people might be having related to loneliness and mental health issues, is they're looking to the past for ideas. And they're like, in previous generations, people used to hang out, they used to go to bookstores, they used to do this. So I don't. And it's not a rejection of technology. For instance, in that research on the trends about vinyl records, parents might be excited to think that, oh, I can cancel my Spotify subscription because my kids want to buy records. No, they want both, right? The evidence is they don't want to throw away the digital. They don't want to throw away the convenience of modern technology. But what they're saying is there's something about the tangible analog past, about in person experiences and connections that they want to, they want to tap into. And older generations are the guide for that. And so this is one of the reasons I think intergenerational friendship and family connections and relationships are so important is because it's not just Halloween. There's all these holidays and traditions and cultural movements and ideas, experiences that young people are very, very fascinated with, very, very curious about. And they want them passed down to them and they want to, they want to learn about that stuff.
- [31:51]
Kevin Gentry
All right, well, this takes us into the important area, and that is nostalgia as a force for good. Because again, there's a, there's a little bit of a stigma that like nostalgia, you're just stuck in the past and you gotta embrace the future. But what you're saying is that this helps us, positions us much more Effectively to step into the future. We're at a time of the year when we focus naturally on gratitude. We think more charitably. Non profit organizations that are helping improve the lives of others, trying to get at the root causes, poverty and things that are holding people back. How does nostalgia help us do that? Even better.
- [32:41]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah, so it in a number of ways. One, you know, starting with your point about gratitude. When we first started doing this research and we were just collecting nostalgic memories from people, we were just, you know, this was when I lived in England. We were literally going door to door and asking people like, hey, would you mind sharing, you know, sharing a nostalgic memory with us? And we'd have them write or record something. One of the things that surprised me at the time, doesn't surprise me now, but you know, now that I know more about this. But at the time I was surprised at how many of these nostalgic experiences had themes of gratitude in them. So someone would say, you know, looking back on this memory, you know, I think, you know, this was such a special time and it makes me thankful or makes me appreciate the life I've lived. It makes me. And then oftentimes you'd see and it makes me want to pass that forward. And so that direct link from I'm thankful for the positive and meaningful experiences that I've had and I want to share that. I want other people to have those experiences too. So that direct link between gratitude and pro social, you know, motivation and behavior is there. So that's one, you know, one thing in addition to that, most nostalgic memories are social, are highly social. And it turns out when we're thinking about things that are social, when we're thinking about people, we become more pro social, right? We become less selfish because we're pushing the attention away in a way. Nostalgia seems like it'd be understandable if someone had the intuition to think of nostalgia as a self indulgent thing. Like after all, you're reflecting on your memories and it seems very inward looking. But in reality what we find is when you reflect on these memories, they involve other people and that pushes you back outside of yourself. And so for instance, when people are nostalgic, they do donate more money to charity, they do volunteer more in general, they feel more empathetic towards others. And the other interesting thing we found is nostalgia not only makes people more, you know, more pro, so want to help others more, it actually makes people more willing to ask for help too. It makes, it just brings out the social side of us of where we want to work together with others and share and connect with others. And so yeah, it's a very pro social. It's a very pro social experience that's been used in all sorts of campaigns. You know, so one experiment was they that had people. It was, it had, it was like a, it was in China and it was about like funds for helping people victims of an earthquake. And they did two different, like promotional campaigns and one was about like one you really leaned in nostalgia and the other one didn't. And they found that when they used the nostalgia, you know, donation campaign, people gave more money, more people gave and people gave more. So even at that practical, like level of, you know, experience have shown that nostalgia increases give charitable giving.
- [35:56]
Kevin Gentry
All right, so I've got two more questions before we wrap up. And Clay, as always, this is so interesting, especially this time of the year. First of all, a little bit more about how in the world you got into this field. I think you're at the Archbridge Institute now. Tell us about. And that focuses a lot on. On. Of human flourishing. Tell us a little bit about that. And what is up with the video game that's in the background? I'm fascinated by that. The best I could do to muster this was to put a fire in the fireplace, really touch the heartstrings of nostalgia. But what's up with the video game?
- [36:37]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
It's probably revealing a little bit of my age. I'm a Gen X serious. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and arcades and video games are kind of part of that scene. And I have a friend who, a local friend who goes and gets old. These old arcade cabinets from back in the day and they're banged up, you know, a lot of them don't work. And you know, the paint's, you know, messed up or the stickers, you know, the, the lights in the marquee are broken, all this stuff. And he rehabilitates them. And I asked him, I was like, why do you do this? And he said, these are things that brought people a lot of joy. They have a lot of memories from. And I want them to bring people joy today. Again, speaking to the forward looking nature of nostalgia, it wasn't just like a personal indulgence of. He wanted to share that. Like, these things made me happy when I was young and I think they can make other people happy and they deserve, they, you know, they deserve to be like brought back to life. And the other thing that's neat about it and also speaks to Nostalgia is. That's an old cabinet from an old game called Robotron. But there's like a thousand games in that. Because what he did is he took the old cabinet and all the things that are the old controls and everything that are like, we really like that experience. But put a modern computer in it. And that's the way nostalgia often works. It's not people, you know, you're talking about people think of nostalgia as getting stuck in the past. It's actually not how nostalgia works most of the time. Most of the time what people are doing is they're not denying progress. They're not saying there aren't advantages to the advances we've made today. What they're saying is there are lessons, there is wisdom, there is guidance, there are meaningful experiences from the past that we can draw from to make life even better, that we can pull from today. And I think this is like the Gen Z thing. It's like Gen Z is not saying, I hate my smartphone. They're saying, my smartphone's not everything. There's other things that we're losing track of perhaps, and there's something really valuable about in person experiences. And ideally the smartphone can be better used. Entrepreneurs can create new platforms and opportunities that help us take advantage of that to form communities, to plan activities where we meet up in person. So, you know that I think that arcade cabinet kind of nicely represents that, that fusion of like, it's the old, it's retro, but there's something modern to it. And how I got into this, you know, it's funny because when I, I'm a psychologist, as you noted, and I was a professor for a long time, but when I first went to graduate school to study my PhD, I was actually really interested in like future oriented thinking and that, like, because I'm a psychologist, like some of the psychological challenges that can create, that can create. So when we think about the future, we can think about all the great things about the future, but we can also think about the, the negatives, right? We can think about, well, what if I don't get that job? Or, you know, what if I get a. You know what, you know, what if I get this disease? Or what if this horrible thing happens to me? And so we worry, we have anxiety, like we worry about a lot. And so what I was interested in is if our ability to think about the future is important for us to plan our lives and to build our, and to build our lives and to advance society, but also creates this potential for fear and anxiety and uncertainty. Do we Potentially use that same time traveling ability to go backwards to comfort ourselves. Like, yeah, the future is uncertain, but the back. But I have all these meaningful memories, and that offers some comfort. So that's how I got into this, was thinking about how we use the past to help us deal with our concerns about the future. What I didn't realize at the time this was, you know, almost 25 years ago, was how nostalgia is so much more than just a source of comfort. And it was really through this process of research and discovery that we started to figure out it's much more than something that, like, makes us feel comfortable when. When life is uncertain. It's actually a source of, like, inspiration and motivation and a real driver of civilizational progress, you know, because it gives us a lot of ideas and inspirations to want to make the world a better place for ourselves, for our children, for our society at large. And so it's funny just because, you know, I started very much thinking explicitly about the future. That ended up taking me down this path to study nostalgia, which came back around to me thinking about the future again, because nostalgia plays such an important role in shaping how we approach the future from the decisions we make, the goals we pursue, the relationships we prioritize and everything.
- [41:21]
Kevin Gentry
Nice, nice. Well, you've got a great book. Past how nostalgia can help you lead a more meaningful life. Recommended. Strongly, very much tied into this clay at this time of the year for us personally, we have Thanksgiving ahead. You know, I think back on the. The Charlie Brown things, Excuse me, Halloween special and all that sort of the music that that played, what was the jazz trio, of course, it was in all of the Charlie Brown peanut specials. And how that, you know, hearing that today pulls you back. We'll go get our Christmas tree and cut it down and do it on a certain day. The night before Thanksgiving, we try to watch Planes, Trains and Automobiles, arguably the greatest comedy ever, with John Candy and Steve Martin. They often said they had more fun making that together than any other film. It's a great way, if you can get through some of the language, it's a great way to prepare yourself for Thanksgiving, all this stuff. But here's my ending question. This is the Going Big podcast. It's designed to help motivate, inspire those who are really trying to make a difference in the world for good to think about how to do it in a bigger, more consequential way. I think really, you've stumbled upon something that's huge. And just as commercial marketers have tapped the power of nostalgia, those who are working to help improve the lives of others. They can figure out ways to tap this more effectively, too. So why don't you just carry us out here? Anything that you might say, because you've essentially said you've devoted your life to utilizing this, and there's. I don't know of anybody else that's done this. You got a hold of the marketplace. But. But. But the. But for nostalgia as a force for good. You can close this out however you'd like. Clay, the floor is yours.
- [43:25]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. Before I do, can I can ask you a question just out of curiosity?
- [43:29]
Kevin Gentry
Absolutely.
- [43:31]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
The young people in your family, do they enjoy what. I know the answer to this. I can guess the answer. But you're talking about planes, trains and automobiles. This is not from their generation. But did they enjoy watching this with you?
- [43:44]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah, that's a great question. And I guess we'd have to ask them, but I think we still watch it all together. I do think there's an element of looking forward to watching it and then thinking that we did watch it, but while we're watching it for the 30th time, it's getting a little old and tedious in parts. So there is an element, like the Thanksgiving thing. But I think about stuff like Star wars, you know, which came out in 1977, and how our kids were affected by that, and then they're still affected by that in many ways. So it's probably a subject too complicated for me. But, yeah, I think there's an element of the experience. We'll say the journey more than the destination.
- [44:29]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah.
- [44:30]
Kevin Gentry
That makes it something that's important.
- [44:34]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. I was asking because I've done some. Some nostalgia advising work with companies such as Warner Brothers and some other streaming services. And, you know, one of the things that's been interesting in that is the discovery that a lot of the most popular movies on streaming services are old movies. That. And it's young people often watching them. Like Shawshank Redemption. These are movies before their time. But either they're watching them with family members or they're discovering them themselves. But it's funny, this speaks that historical nostalgia point. It's like, even though we have, like, the Charlie Brown. Like, I, you know, I watch. I watch all those every year. I have them all on Blu Ray. Like, it's. They're ready to go at any moment. And, you know, and I. I watched them. I had my kids watch them. You know, it's just. We pass those things down. So I was just curious if that was. If that was Star wars, too. I was just curious if that was. That was your experience as well.
- [45:37]
Kevin Gentry
Introduced me to Shawshank Redemption. I don't know how I'd missed it over the years, but he suggested that I watch it a few months ago, and it truly is one of the best movies ever made. But you're. You hit. You hit the nail on the head there, Clay.
- [45:52]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Yeah. Yeah. So as far as, like, your. Your quit. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail us, but your, your take us out question. If you. In the book, you know, I talk about some examples of people who started, you know, big projects, non profits, businesses, other things, and their inspiration, the way they was, you know, the passion was discovered largely through a nostalgic journey. Most people who either, like, champion a cause, build a business, create a powerful work of art that inspires us. If you talk to them or if you read about them, you know, biographies about them, there's a nostalgic story or multiple nostalgic stories that really sparked that passion. If you look at somebody like a famous filmmaker like Steven Spielberg, he basically made a movie about this, about his, you know, his life, and, you know, how he fell in love with movies. So I think, you know, when people, you know, sometimes people are looking for inspiration, we don't know how to solve a problem. We don't know what direction to take in life. We have choices, difficult choices. Of course. Of course we make mistakes. We don't always get things right. You know, sometimes things really. It isn't clear which path to take. But our nostalgic memories can really, really help us. They're a gold mine of meaning. They're the cherished experiences that we have, we talked about. That doesn't mean they're always pleasant. They're not always just pure happy. They're not all vacation. Some of our nostalgic memories are happy vacations, but some of them are more complex. But what they can help us do is really get in touch with our potential, what we're good at, what our strengths are, and they can help us build on those and really discover and energize, like, our passion for a cause or for creative activity. And so I would encourage anyone, anyone can use the power of nostalgia in that way to energize themselves. But I would say, especially if you are going through a tough time, for some people, the holidays are a tougher time, right? And there are probably memories or experiences that you can draw from as well to help improve the future. And, you know, you know, I'll close with one example. I Remember talking to someone who was a big, like, Christmas, like, loved Christmas. Wasn't, you know, did all this stuff, decorated the house, put lights everywhere, like, drove up the electric bill, probably with all the lights. They did. I remember talking to him and him saying, you know, actually, my. My childhood Christmases were not good. We're not that good. Like, my dad was an alcoholic. It just. I didn't have a stable family, but I saw other kids and how much Christmas meant to them. And, you know, I sort of learned that this should be good. This can be good. This. This should be an important holiday. And, you know, of course, connecting to the deeper meaning, too, not just like the fun aspects of it, about, like, you know, the story of Christmas and, you know, finding, discovering that. And then so what? So he was drawing from other people's nostalgia almost. He was saying, I know from my culture, from society, from movies, from other things, that this is an important and special time. Even though in my own life, like, my memories of that time aren't great, but I want to build. Create new memories for the future and for my children. And I think that's one of the underappreciated aspects of nostalgia, is even if there's something in your life that you feel like was difficult or, you know, wasn't the, you know, it wasn't the best to draw from. We're constantly. Life keeps going forward, so we're constantly have the opportunities to build new memories. And that's what he was doing. Say, I'm going to make Christmas something that's good for my children, and they're going to have these memories, and I'm going to have these memories with them. And so that, you know, I would just close with that as well. It's never too late to create new memories because we just keep going forward. And so especially for people who are kind of, you know, there's some cynicism sometimes around nostalgia because of that. And they'll say, well, you know, I don't have those memories that you have, Clay. So. And I'm like, well, you know, there's an opportunity for you to create them and to build them, not just through Christmas, but other holidays and traditions and. And so I think that's also one of the inspiring aspects of nostalgia. Is that creative or that agentic part of it?
- [50:32]
Kevin Gentry
Well, what a great way to close this out. You know, we'll be celebrating America's 250th birthday, really, beginning next year in 2025, because you had Patrick Henry speech and Lexington and Concord and of course, we get into 2026 and the actual 250th with July 4th. But rather than, as you say, kind of anchored in the past, it can be a force for good to carry the country forward, leaning in all those aspects that, you know are the positive. So we'll dust off our copies of Walt Disney's Johnny Tremaine and some of those other things and see what they inspire us to do. Dr. Clay Rutledge, thank you so much. You've really, I think, helped us truly understand. You've defined illustrated nostalgia as a force for good, but I think you've motivated us to think big about how it can be utilized in a much more consequential way. Thanks for having, thanks for being with us today and all the best to you.
- [51:34]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Thank you so much, Kevin. It was, it was a pleasure.
- [51:37]
Kevin Gentry
All right, bye.
- [51:38]
Dr. Clay Rutledge
Bye.
- [51:40]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for listening to today's Going Big podcast. Hopefully you were inspired to go big for your cause. Remember, this is all about transforming your effectiveness by 10xing your fundraising. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe or leave us a review at iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also catch this episode on YouTube. And also there are lots of resources available to you at my website, which is 10xstrategies.com that's T N X strategies.com you can sign up also for our free weekly fundraising tips. This is all about helping you get to the root causes of some of the biggest problems in society today by transforming your your fundraising and your effectiveness. Thanks again. We'll see you again soon. Bye.