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- [00:02]
Todd
Your message amplified.
- [00:03]
Kevin Gentry
Ready to share your message with the world? Start your podcast journey with podbean. Podbean Podbean Podbean Podbean the AI powered.
- [00:12]
Todd
All in one podcast platform. Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean to launch their podcasts. Launch your podcast on podbean today. My school uses Podbean. My church too.
- [00:23]
Kevin Gentry
I love it. I really do. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to a very special episode of the Going Big Podcast. Today marks the one year anniversary of the launch of Going Big and thanks to you and many other dedicated listeners and viewers of the podcast, we have been consistently over the past six months, number one on iTunes in our category, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of downloads and views that are taking us to a whole new level. And thanks to many of our great guests, we've won a number of industry awards. Very excited about the future of Going Big. But how does that apply to you today? Well, thanks to you not only for listening and watching and subscribing and sharing the episode with friends and colleagues who you thought would benefit from it, but you've also given me some great suggestions and recommendations on how to continuously improve as well as suggested some terrific guests and really excited about the future. Always excited about that next episode. But what did today for your benefit was to see if there were some insights and lessons from the first year that could be compiled and clipped in a way that could even help us focus more narrowly into some key insights. And we did. Number one is in the area of risk taking and entrepreneurship as you're about to start, see and hear. Second category is tapping the wisdom of mentors. The idea of mentorship came up so often in conversations with our guests and then finally it's stepping forward in big, bold leadership. And what lessons can we take from how we can apply that to our lives? I would say that grounded in all of this is that famous quote which we refer to often from Daniel Burnham. Daniel Burnham, the great city planner and architect. You may know the Flatiron Building in New York City or Union station in Washington, D.C. daniel Burnham had the plans to rebuild much of the city of Chicago after the great fire. Known around the world as one of the greatest architects and urban planners. But he famously said, make no little plans. They have no ability to stir men's souls. In fact, that's on a plaque as you walk in the main door of Union station in Washington, D.C. and and that has been sort of the basis of how we've thought about Going big. What is it we can learn from the big bold thinking of visionary leaders like Reverend Martin Luther King, who through his I have a Dream speech at the March on Washington, inspired a complete change in the attitudes of Americans about civil rights. Or what can we learn about from Dr. Sidney Farber, who had a vision to cure cancer, or the Wright Brothers vision, over 500 failures before they came up with the ideas to fly? Well, let's dive into some of these categories. The first one, as I mentioned, is risk taking and entrepreneurship. We're going to hear from a number of folks, but in particular, Jeff Rosenthal. Jeff, at a very young age with three friends, put everything they had on their credit cards to launch Summit and then ultimately to buy Powder Mountain, the biggest ski resort in the United States. And also we're going to hear from Newt Gingrich. Newt Gingrich, who is a young couple college professor in Georgia, had a vision for revolutionary change in public policy, ran for Congress, and ultimately cast the vision to become speaker of the United States House of Representatives. Take a look at some of these and other clips about how we can think about entrepreneurship and risk taking. All right, so for an aspiring entrepreneur, wherever they might be in the world, the United States, certainly, what advice would you give to them about taking risks, making small experiments, and going big?
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Newt Gingrich
Yeah, I think entrepreneurs today have a.
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Todd
Huge advantage we didn't have back then, and that's YouTube and Wikipedia and you.
- [04:31]
Newt Gingrich
Can get incredible amounts of information. So you've got to learn everything. You've got to be a total pervert in your area and, and know every single thing in that specific niche.
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Todd
Then you have to be willing to.
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Newt Gingrich
Go big, and you have to be willing to put everything out there and.
- [04:48]
Todd
Try as hard as you can.
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Newt Gingrich
Another thing I think entrepreneurs should do, and I was so blessed to have this, is you gotta reach out to.
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Todd
People that have had success in that field and try to meet with them after you've done all the research.
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Newt Gingrich
Don't show up to a meeting not.
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Todd
Knowing exactly who they are and what they've accomplished.
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Newt Gingrich
Bring your questions and be prepared.
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Todd
You will be shocked.
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Newt Gingrich
How many successful entrepreneurs in that field are willing to talk to you?
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Todd
Not all of them. I mean, you know, people might not return your call, but there will be.
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Newt Gingrich
People and they will sit with you.
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Todd
And they will help you and they.
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Newt Gingrich
Will give you guidance, and it will really go a long way and make you feel, you know, that you've got that wind at your back to help you.
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Todd
And then the last thing is, I.
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Newt Gingrich
Know it sounds cliche, but you can't give up because all you're gonna do is be told no a thousand times.
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Todd
You can't build that giant thing at usc. You can't get these companies to go south of the 10 Freeway in South.
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Doug DeVos
LA and do all the retail you want.
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Todd
And you can't get the union contract and you can't get the city approvals. You'll never get the financing. You never built anything. I mean, and all those people are right. They're completely right. But that's, that's what it is. You can't be an owner of the.
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Newt Gingrich
Dodgers, you little immigrant kid. You think you've done this, but you.
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Todd
Just keep going and going and going and going and doing things the right.
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Newt Gingrich
Way and meeting people and developing a reputation and be honorable.
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Todd
And then it's like things just happen.
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Kevin Gentry
All right, well, related to that, several episodes ago of the Going Big podcast, I had Will Guidera, who had the vision for building 11 Madison park into the greatest restaurant in the world, this concept of unreasonable hospitality. And he often goes back to a quote from his father that said, if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you do? How bound were you all by any concept of risk or failure? Or were you at a state? I mean, yes, you put everything on your credit card, but tell us a little bit more about this sort of risk taking attitude.
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Todd
Our reaction to imposter syndrome was to mess with people. And so instead of being like, oh man, I don't know if I can be in this room. Everybody's so successful, they're so talented, like, what do I, how do I deserve to be here? They're gonna know that I'm, you know, a novice. And that, that sort of thought pattern, which can be really crippling, right. It makes it very, very difficult. Our emotion when we would feel that was to just literally mess with those people. And so we would just talk shit and they would have fun. And so it wasn't about the professional relationship first and those interactions. It was like, at a minimum, this is going to be their favorite interaction of the week.
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Doug DeVos
Right.
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Todd
If we can achieve that, then there's likely a door that's open for us on an ongoing basis. And so I think that was extremely empowering in terms of if you knew you couldn't fail. We didn't think about failure at all. We didn't have anything. Why would we care? Like, we had no reputation, we had no money. You know, we had thrown a couple of cool events. Who cares? You know, like, let's try. And in, you know, the worst case, it's not like the people that Love us would love us any more or less based on the success or failure of our venture. And I think that, you know, that that enabled us to really go for it. Like none of us are come from like mega wealthy families or anything, but we certainly did grow up, you know, solidly middle class and have loving parents. And you know, that puts us damn near the end zone in the, you know, scale of life.
- [08:28]
Kevin Gentry
Right.
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Todd
And so I think we, we really did feel like we had the capacity to do something great, which is totally unmoored from reality. Like none of us were target students, none of us went to Ivy League schools. You know, none of us were recruited to Goldman Sachs. Like we were pretty non target guys. And yet we unreasonably thought that we too could build something special. And yeah, I mean, I think that there's a way to perceive failure that's more productive, which is just, it's all a learning opportunity. It's all on the path to getting where you want to go. If you are doing something new, you're definitely wrong. The question is just how far are you from the right answer?
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Kevin Gentry
Right.
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Todd
So accepting that is key. There's a great book that the kind of like the graphic novel version of the samurai philosophy. It's called the Hagakure. It's this amazing. I love this book, but one of the things that they talk about is being a shammer. It means that you're always in shame. You're always in shame because you're always trying to improve beyond the point that you're at today. And therefore you are in a constant state of, of failure.
- [09:42]
Kevin Gentry
Your brand is ideas as well as leadership and as well as challenging the status quo. I'd like to start off by asking you to react to the quote by the great architect and urban planner Daniel Burnham. Make no little plans, he said. I think it's on a plaque as you enter Union station in Washington D.C. little plans have no ability to stir men's souls and probably won't accomplish much. How do you react to what Daniel Burnham said back 150 years ago?
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Newt Gingrich
@ least for some people, it's good to make very, very big plans. Whether it's, you know, the creation of America by the Founding Fathers or Elon Musk developing the reusable rocket or Edison inventing the electric light. I mean, lots of different. Yeah, you know, I think Peter Drucker once studied who was effective and he said it actually wasn't a question of IQ, that, that when you talked about the great scientists, the ones that really made a Difference, ask bigger questions, and they tried to solve bigger problems, and that's what made the difference. So I would say, I said everybody, you know, think through what you dream of or what you believe in, recognize it's going to take hard work to do it, and then go pursue happiness and lead a life of where you get to spend your time and your energy pursuing the things you love.
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Kevin Gentry
Well, you're an historian. Thinking back, and you mentioned Edison and Elon Musk and others. Are there two or three figures in whatever period of world history that jump out as those who cast that kind of big, bold vision and drove that extraordinary change? Obviously the founding of the country 250 years ago. I think that's a great example. What, what else springs to mind?
- [11:38]
Newt Gingrich
Well, I mean, certainly Jesus Christ and Muhammad and Moses, figures who defined entire cultures and who have an impact, you know, a thousand Christ, 2,000 years after he was born. In Moses's case about 3,000 years, Muhammad's case, about 1400 years. I mean, those are huge cultural impacts politically in the US I spend as much time as I can studying Lincoln, who I think is the most complicated and probably the smartest of our presidents, and who was faced with the greatest crisis of anyone since Washington won the Revolutionary War. So. But I also like to study entrepreneurs and people who have developed new approaches, new solutions. The Wright brothers, bicycle mechanics who every summer went down to Kitty Hawk, which had the best wind on the east coast, and they wanted the wind to help lift the airplane. Over a period of years, they made 500 efforts to fly at about a dollar per effort. And finally, on December 17, 1903, they actually flew a distance about the same length as the wingspan of a 747, slow enough that the one brother could run alongside the plane, making sure it didn't flip over while the other brother was the pilot.
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Kevin Gentry
Isn't it true, I think Wilbur Wright even commented at some point that it would be, you know, 100 years or a thousand years before man would fly as they were trying that. Yet they persisted and eventually achieved something so consequential.
- [13:25]
Newt Gingrich
Well, I think they. People underestimate how sophisticated they were. They studied birds. They compared notes with people around the world. There were a lot of different people trying to invent powered flight at the same time. The Smithsonian actually got a $50,000 grant from the Congress, but had a design that was too sophisticated and too difficult, and it failed. And they showed their absolute lack of originality because they decided they would launch it from a platform in the Potomac river, which meant that when it failed, it went into the water, was torn apart by the current, and they couldn't figure out what went wrong.
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Kevin Gentry
Here's the final question, because this is. This is the Go Big podcast. It's. It's an encouragement to people to be inspired by casting a big, bold vision. People who've done that, like yourself, what encouragement would you give any listener to this to think about their future today? First of all, smart people are a dime a dozen. There are a lot of really smart people in this world that never do.
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Reverend John Yates
Anything.
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Kevin Gentry
Because they're not driven. Some advice my brother gave me was at a critical moment in my life, I was going to get a new chance. And I asked my brother, do you think I have enough ability to do what I need to do? And he said, well, I don't think ability has much to do with. The question is, do you want to do it? My mother's word for ambition was, wanna. Do you wanna do something? And I would say, looking back at my career, especially in government, Warner played a big role. I got 28% of the vote when I first ran for public office. Normally, that's the end of a career. Wasn't the end of my career. I figured when I authored the Reagan budget, it was probably the end of my political career. I wasn't sure. But I was willing to do it because I thought it was worth it. And I think the willingness to take risk and the willingness to learn. When I started in politics, Kevin, I was terrible. I didn't like. I thought it was intrusive to go up, shake hands with somebody and introduce yourself. And so I was just terrible. But I learned, okay. It's not just bullheaded. I'm going to do this thing. It was, I'm going to learn to do what I need to do to make it possible to do it. And so I got to the point where I'm really good at saying to people, hi, my name's Phil William, and I want to go to Washington to change America. One of my biggest meetings I ever had politically. I was a college professor. Nobody knew me. Most people knew me, didn't like me. And so I went to Austin and to visit with the head of the Texas Chemical Council, which is a huge organization of petrochemical producers. And so anyway, I go in and I shake the guy's hand, and I said, I'm going to Washington to save America, and you need my help. And he said, I sure as hell do. Sit down right here and tell me how you're going to do it. And so I sat down and told him I was going to do it. And I never ran again. They didn't support me. Ah, that's a great story, too. Well, thank you. Yeah, well, it shows you people you don't have to. I used to say to young congressmen, senators, if you're willing to take on a tough issue, you don't have to worry about stepping on anybody's toes. Hell, people are going to shove you out there because then if the bullets fly, they're going to hit you. And none, you know, so, you know, how did I end up being the author of the Reagan Budget in the House or Graham Rudman as a freshman senator? I wanted to do it and I was willing to do it and willing to take the chances. You know, you got to be willing to fail to succeed. So my advice to young people is one, if you want something, don't be easily deterred. Don't just think bull effort will get it for you. Learn what you need to learn to do what you need to do to get where you want to go to do what you want to do. And there's no better way, in my judgment, to kick off this conversation than for you to talk about your illustrious high school career. I have to say, I've never known anybody who had a 0.9 GPA. Obviously, you got kicked out of school. Can we just start the conversation? How does that inform everything?
- [19:04]
Todd
Yeah, well, listen, I always say you have to work really hard to fail that that badly, right? Like, I didn't even get social promotion. But, yeah, basically I grew up in rural America and, you know, in the small, small town that I grew up in, you know, conformity was really prized. It didn't really fit very well with my personality. And as you can imagine, in school when you don't do very well, it sort of compounds. And, you know, by, by the, you know, my junior senior year, I was doing so poorly, they just said, look, you know, I like to say we mutually agreed that I would leave, but the reality is they said, you can't. You're never going to be able to graduate. What are you still doing here? You're just causing problems. And so early in my senior year, I ended up dropping out of high school and to sort of compound problems. Shortly thereafter, my girlfriend at the time, who was my wife of 29 years, found out she was pregnant. By the time I was like, you know, 20, we had two kids. I had worked a string of minimum wage jobs just to try to pay the bills, you know, the kind of Jobs you get. We already have a high school diploma. We ended up on welfare. And it was pretty bleak.
- [20:23]
Doug DeVos
And.
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Todd
You know, it's so much of that sort of failing and then, you know, coming out of that has informed almost everything I do, you know, whether I realized it at the time or not. And you know, what happened really was, I'd like to say I had some grand plan in reality to start. I just knew that I couldn't stay where I was at that. It's one thing to mess up your own life, it's another thing to ruin the lives of two children that didn't ask to be born. Right? Like, so I felt the responsibility there. You know, my father in law at the time, he, he was really frustrated, as he should have been. And he said, you know, I just think you're lazy. And I almost internalized that. And I remember the moment that changed for me as I was with my dad. And my dad said, you know, I don't think you're lazy. I just think you have to be motivated all the time. And when you're motivated, he said, I, I think you are phenomenal. And when you're not, you're just not. And that is so true to this day. And he said, you know, there are people who will pay you good money to do the kind of things that I believe you're great at, but you can't get there from here. And he said, you know, you either need to start a business, you know, be an entrepreneur, or go to college and get, get some more skill. And what was interesting is my, my dad was the first high school graduate in my entire family. He also created a, an example for me because I remember when I was in grade school, he came home, he was a mechanic. And one day he came home and he said, look, it's good, honest work, but I believe that I can contribute more than this to society. And he decided to go to school at night and he became a mechanical engineer. He just retired as one of the world's foremost engineers in airbag design. He invented so many things and saved so many people's lives. And so I watched, I watched what it means for someone to aspire for something bigger and to actually pursue it. And I saw what happened to our lives and life circumstances as a result. So I thought, well, okay, I. I gotta do something. And so I enrolled, I got my ged, and I enrolled at Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. It was that journey out of desperation because all we had was my, my, my family cobbled together enough money to pay for one year of school. And it wasn't very expensive. It was like something $800 a term. And even then, I was like, I. I don't. You know, and they said, look, if you want this bad enough, you'll figure out how to make it work. And when I started, you know, I realized I didn't know what would work, but I knew what didn't work. And up until that point, I had tried to do things the exact same way as every best practices. There's a. Here's how kids get good grades. This is what it means to study. This is how you do things. I tried to follow the rules that way, and it didn't work. And so I started making decisions based on what little I knew about myself at first, and that would. That would start to create a change in me. And it was small things at first. Like, I knew that I didn't have the study skills, so I needed to pick classes that I was so passionate about that was just. They were intrinsically interesting. So I would stick with it because I wanted the knowledge. I took all the classes I cared about first. I put everything that I didn't care about off as long as I could. I learned things like there were certain contexts with certain kinds of professors that really worked for me, you know, and what I didn't realize is I was starting to appreciate the value of fitness. Right. And if you don't mind, I'll tell you, there was one moment that completely changed everything for me.
- [24:29]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah. Please tell the story. And there's so much to dig into, and I hope those listening now would understand why I said you're perfect for the Going Big podcast. I have to say, though, Todd, because not to spoil any of the end of the story, but, you know, you had a long association with Harvard University. I'm betting you're the only person affiliated with Harvard who also had a 0.9. 0.9 GPA.
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Todd
It was. It was funny. Yeah, it was like. Like to get my doctorate there and then become a professor. Yeah. Nobody else had ever done that. I'm actually quite proud of that fact. But, you know, so there's this moment where it's been a couple years in. I'm. I am doing okay, you know, but for me, I thought I, you know, well, maybe that was an easy class I took, whatever. But I'm sitting in this history class. It's in a big auditorium, which was not a good context for me, but I couldn't get out of it. I'm sitting next to my buddy Steve and the. The class is ending. We're in the very back of the auditorium, and I'm. I'm complaining about this class. And he goes, oh, listen, this is nothing compared to what I got myself into in the honors program. Now, I didn't know what the honors program was. I thought it was like, the same stuff, but more work. And I'm like, who would do that? No, no, he. He disabused me that. He said, oh, no, it's so much worse. He said, there aren't big classes. There's, like groups of like 12 to 20 kids, tops. And he's like. And there's no assignments. Like, not like, there's no tests. There's no lectures. We just sit and, like, have small group discussions. And he goes, I don't even think there are right answers because all we do is debate. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that doesn't even seem like anything I've ever heard of in terms of what education would be, right? I was so excited. Like, this is perfect. I literally grabbed my bag, my backpack, and went right up. So the honors program at Weber State is the top of the hill. It's the second floor of the library. And again, this is an open enrollment school. I'm really proud of graduating from there. So they take all comers, but they were really proud of this honors program. They're trying to get it.
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Kevin Gentry
You had no chance of getting into an honors program.
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Todd
Yeah, like, I'm glad I didn't think that way, because I, in my impulsivity there, I go right up into the honors office. I go straight to this, the secretary woman named Marilyn diamond, for reasons you'll see in a minute, one of my favorite people in the world. And I said, hey, I want to be in the honors program. And she was like, that's great. Let me see if the director's in, if he got some time. Maybe we just get that conversation started. Now, luck may have it, he does have time. I go into his office, I sit down, and he's very, very excited that we're building something here. He said, look, this is great. We need eager students like you. Just a few questions. Let's just get this out of the way. Application, you know, he's asking questions. He goes, well, what, What. What was your high school GPA? And I, I. No, I said, 0.9. And this is no joke. His response was, what, 09? Like, I, like I had left out the most important part, right? Like, and. And it dawns on me immediately there I was like, oh, no. So I was like, oh, 0.9. And he just looks at me, and he wasn't mean about it. He just said, oh, yeah, you can't be in the honors program. Like. And I was mortified. Like, I just impulsively rushed into this thing because it sounded amazing. And now I just wanted to crawl into a hole, right? Like. And I couldn't. I'm as fast as I could grab all my stuff, and I'm apologizing profusely to him for wasting his time just trying to get out of there. And I'm headed out the door, and Marilyn Diamond's desk was just right next to the door. This is his secretary. And as I'm walking out, she reached out and just grabbed my arm, and she said, hey, I overheard the conversation. If you want this, don't take no for an answer. That was the first time that ever occurred to me that you could do that. And I said, what do you mean? She said, just sit on the couch here and don't leave until he lets you in. So I sat on the couch, and he came out to go teach a class because he was a professor, too. And he said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I want to be on the honors program. He said, you can't be in the honors program. So he goes and teaches this class. He comes back a couple of hours later. It felt like a whole day for me, but it was just. And he comes in, he goes, oh, you're still here. And he walks into his office. He pokes his head back, and I said, come here. So I go back in. He said, listen, listen. Tell me why you want to be in the honors program. Because on paper, it makes no sense. And so I started explaining to him, you know, my journey, and that I had learned some things about myself, including the kinds of context that I thought I would actually thrive in. And this seemed perfect for me. And he said, okay, you know, I can't just let you in straight up, but what I can do is let you in on a provisional basis. And what I want you to do is you choose one honors class, and if you do well in it, I'll let you choose another. And if you do it the rest of the year, then I'll let you in for good. And he said, well, by the way, let me be clear what I mean by do well in the class. He said, I don't care if you're the straight A student. I care that when I ask that professor, they can't imagine the class without you. That's what he defined as success. So I, I chose wisely. I chose this. I still remember it to this day. The, the course was called Plagues of the Modern Age. And it was so terrifying, right? I almost became a vegan just because I'm like, how does anyone eat ground beef? Right? Like, but. And what was, what was so interesting is flash forward. It was a perfect fit. And I ended up graduating a few years later as the honor student of the year for weber State with a 397 GPA in Psychology and pre med. And I was accepted into Harvard, straight into Harvard for my doctorate without a master's degree. And I don't say that to brag. I say that. Just that.
- [30:43]
Kevin Gentry
No, that's. Yeah, exactly.
- [30:46]
Todd
And you know, there are really two things that I learned from that experience that have really informed everything that I've done since professionally. And they really have to do with how you think about human potential and what people are worth, what they can really contribute. Hey, look, I worked really, really hard. I did. But the first thing that I learned was this idea of fit. And so, so often we think about talent, we think about dumb things. Sorry, but like IQ or something, there's some, how there's this generalized thing that matters independent of context, that's just simply not true. It's not true. Scientifically, fit really matters. And it's about finding that fit between your individuality and the environment you're in. And I promise you, it is unbelievable what happens because I was the same kid, you know what I mean? It's just. Yeah, I had some motivation, but you get into a context where it's such a good fit. And look, I worked hard, but it felt easy. I can't describe. It's like suddenly you're just in that flow, right? So fit will become a critical part of what we learned in the science of individuality. Like we can talk about later. But the second thing is the unbelievable importance of relationships and, you know, like Marilyn Diamond. Exactly. And if I look at my whole career, I could tell you that story through the lens of a handful of people who believed in me, believed in my potential, even when I didn't see it at the right times. And here's the thing here, here's what's really funny. So Marilyn diamond changed my life, right? So a few years ago, I get asked to come back to Weber State to accept an award as alum of the year. I'm really excited and I'm. I'm giving this speech and turns out Marilyn Diamond's in The audience, and they had just told me she was retiring. So I thought, what a great example to tell everyone who will listen some version of the story I just shared with you. And, you know, it's great. There's tears for a bunch of everybody. And the dean goes, hey, Marilyn, do you want to come up and say a few words? And she's so humble that she just, she gets up there, she gives me a hug, and then she adjusts the microphone. She's quite a bit shorter than I am. And she said, todd, I, I really appreciate the story, but I have to be honest, I don't remember that. And I thought she was saying I was lying. Like, like I said, I said, well, it happened. She goes, no, no, I, I do believe it happened. I just don't remember it. But here was the thing.
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Kevin Gentry
You weren't that special.
- [33:26]
Todd
No, I, I, I thought, I thought it was something about me. It turns out it was something about Marilyn. Yeah, everybody had a Marilyn diamond story.
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Kevin Gentry
And exactly what's crazy, everybody who's listening to this is now processing in their mind. Well, hopefully each person has a Marilyn diamond story or two or three. Somebody that believed in them. Wow.
- [33:46]
Todd
Well, can I tell you this, though? Let me say one more thing. When we think about what it means to believe in someone, you often think that it requires such a heavy lift, and I think we tend to shy away from that. Right. But we can all be the Marilyn Diamonds in other people's stories. And you think about it, her effort changed my life. And it was so inconsequential to her that she didn't even remember doing it. That's the asymmetry about what it means to believe in people. And so when we start to realize that we all have a role to play in each other's success, and we start looking for those small, what I would call those Marilyn diamond moments, you'll be amazed at the kind of impact that you can have on other people's lives.
- [34:31]
Kevin Gentry
All right. Hope you thought that was valuable. The lessons and insights about risk taking and entrepreneurship. But let's now talk about mentorship. This came up so often in conversations with our guests. The power that you get from the wisdom and insights and guidance from mentors and how you find mentors, how you seek them out, how you invite them into your life. Well, we're going to hear from the Reverend Buster Soares, who talks about how he tapped the wisdom in different ways in his life, including that of the mentorship of the man who is the pastor to Martin Luther King, to Professor Tyler Cowan, one of the most prominent economists in the world. And how he's still seeking out mentors as he's in his 60s and now finding mentors who are even younger than he is. To Will Guidera, who had a vision for helping to make eleven Madison park the greatest restaurant in the world through the concept of unreasonable hospitality. And how he taps the wisdom of, of mentors as well. Check it out. And it's clear in the book, and you dedicate the book to your dad as well, that your dad was a big influence. You also reference a lot of very important mentors in your life, if you would tell us maybe a little bit about that. But how you think finding a mentor either being fortunate enough to, to. To. To work with a mentor, but finding a mentor can be so important as we all try to go big.
- [36:00]
Doug DeVos
One of my dad's other quotes, which I did this, this video thing with Simon Sinek and I asked my dad to come on and he was part of the video series I did with Simon was me in conversation with my dad. And in conversation my dad just casually says, you're never too young to be a mentor and you're never too old to have a mentor. And I was like, yeah, where was that when I was writing the book? I would have loved to have put that in the book. That's brilliant.
- [36:28]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah.
- [36:29]
Doug DeVos
And it is a really good one. And mentorship, I just think is so important and I have so many thoughts about it. I think sometimes, like many things in life, we over complicate the idea of mentorship. I don't believe that.
- [36:51]
Kevin Gentry
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- [37:03]
Todd
Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean to launch their podcasts.
- [37:07]
Kevin Gentry
Use Podbean to record your podcast. Use PodBean AI to optimize your podcast. Use PodBean AI to turn your blog into a podcast. Use Podbean to distribute your podcast everywhere.
- [37:19]
Todd
Launch your podcast on Podbean today.
- [37:24]
Doug DeVos
In order to have a mentor, they need to sign on to be your mentor. Just to be super clear, I think a mentor is someone that you intentionally choose to actively learn from. I have people that I consider to be my mentors that have never even met me, but they are people that I follow and I study and I want to emulate. And when faced with challenging decisions, I try to think about what they would do and then I try to use that to inspire what I will do. I Think there are people that can become mentors in your life for a measure of time. Not every mentor relationship needs to be a lifelong commitment. As we change, we need new people to learn from and to be inspired by. And so I've had so many different mentors. I've had mentors who've taught me about being more disciplined in my pursuit of mental health or physical health. I've had mentors that have taught me about business, specific sides of the business.
- [38:29]
Todd
And.
- [38:33]
Doug DeVos
The first part of that quote from my dad, you are never too young to be a mentor. There's not like a degree we get in life where you've accomplished a certain amount and now you are eligible for mentorship, right? Like, there are always plenty of people that can learn from you. And one of the best ways to learn is to teach. And so I think putting yourself in the role of mentoring others is as important as putting yourself in the role where you are open to being mentored by others. But to your point, there are a few, obviously, that have been the most influential people in my life, and my dad is obviously the one that sits on the top of that list. Danny Meyer, right below him. And Danny Meyer, for those of you who don't know, author of side of the Table. My longtime boss, owner of a bunch of great New York restaurants, although perhaps best known at this point for Shake Shack, who taught me about the power of language, who taught me that if you take care of the people on your team, that's the most scalable way to invest in taking care of the customers in your business. My boss, who worked for Danny Meyer. I worked for Randy. Randy worked for Danny. Randy Garudi, who was my first general manager out of college, who was the most enthusiastic person I've ever worked for and still one of the most enthusiastic people I know. And reinforced this idea that all it takes is one person with enthusiasm for unbelievable things to happen, who taught me that great leadership is, in part just being a great cheerleader, who taught me that high energy begets high energy.
- [40:19]
Kevin Gentry
What about mentors? What would you advise to those listening about the role of mentors? How have they been important in your life? How have different people been important in your life?
- [40:31]
Doug DeVos
Very important. Of course, I'm very fortunate that my biggest mentor was my father, John Pope. It can be very challenging working for your dad. I will say that, and I'm smiling about it. But my dad always encouraged me to do what I wanted to do, even when I went to Duke Law School instead of Carolina Business School. But he also wanted my help and taught me so much that I could succeed him. So starting off, I was very fortunate to have a great mentor and my father and I do not want to leave my mother, Joy Pope, out of that either. In politics again, spoke earlier about example named Jim Martin, Governor Martin, but interesting enough, when I was 16 years old, I volunteer as a driver in a congressional campaign for a gentleman who was in his 30s at the time named Jack Halt, who later went on to become the campaign manager for Jim Martin. And that's really through Jack that I learned a lot about politics working on the campaign and met Jim Martin. So who knows, who knew when I was 16 years old, that relationship would develop into both a good mentor and then lead me into public service myself. So you never know how young you are when you find a mentor.
- [41:45]
Kevin Gentry
Would you recommend seeking out mentors?
- [41:47]
Doug DeVos
I both recogn recommend seeking out mentors. But more importantly, as I reached my middle age and beyond middle age now, I constantly try to look out what young people can I help again, not only can you give back, but can you pay back or pay forward by helping mentoring young people? And a lot of what the Lock Polk foundation supports, the Bradley foundation support, I know that the Charles Koch foundation does this, is provide organized programs for leadership fellows, young fellows in the area of public policy, politics and business. So I very much try to help with that in a structured manner, but one on one, trying to help other young people as I was helped when I was young.
- [42:32]
Kevin Gentry
Eric, as I said at the outset, you've always been again, on the cusp of new media trends. And so, you know, if people are not familiar with the sort of history of blogs and history of talk radio and things, this may not sound as, as easy to comprehend, but you were there at each of these steps along the way. So tell us a little bit more about Rush Limbaugh. You, you, you became a substitute for him many times. If you would tell us a little bit about Rush as, as perhaps a friend or a mentor and, and also comment, if you would, about his role in American media, much less to say what he did with respect to the American conservative movement, American politics and the history of the country at that moment. So, you know, he was a real friend of mine. In fact, I actually didn't know until a couple of months ago. I was doing an event with James golden, who everybody knows as Bo Snurdley, his longtime call screener and producer. I did not know that my relationship with, with Rush was as unique as it was among his guest hosts. We had a Very long friendship. We I very first time I ever emailed it was in 2004 when he mentioned Red State, mentioned me and started emailing back and forth. And then he spoke at cpac. One year we got together in person when I would go down the Palm beach for events. We would connect down in Palm Beach. And when I got in radio, he literally like I didn't know if I really wanted to do radio. And he was very adamant he would never talk to me again if I didn't do radio. He had gone to bat, told him I could do it, I needed to do it, and was a real mentor. I could, I could email him, text him day and night and get a response on how do I do this, what should I do? And he was very good at recognizing the rise of conservative blogs. And as a lot of people on the right, the Wall Street Journal and others were very hesitant to embrace right wing bloggers. Rush was at the forefront in his stack of stuff. Every day he had links of places he would read and more and more it was blogs, Powerline, Red State, the Corner at National Review. He was willing to embrace no name conservative writers across the country and then elevate us into positions and got me on radio and then let me start guest hosting for him, which in and of itself was just a wild ride to be able to do. But he, he elevated conservatism. He recognized that his job, in fact early on he told me my job was not to save the world and it was not to advance conservatism. My job was to entertain. And if I could keep people company, in his words, my job was to keep people company wherever they were because they were probably by themselves and they were friends with the guy on the radio. And if I could understand that, then I could persuade, then I could promote, then I could change the country, then I could do what I wanted to do. But if I couldn't remember that the first job is to entertain people, everything else wouldn't matter because I wouldn't be good at it. And very much took that to heart. And he has been very gracious over the years until he died. Elevating voices outside of the traditional landscape of the New York Washington media corridor. And I just happen to be one of those people. Many times we see someone who's been successful in life and we think that's been their life forever. Maybe you were born into a, as you mentioned, the elites coming over from Europe, a privileged background or something. How did you grow up?
- [46:02]
Newt Gingrich
What do you mean?
- [46:03]
Kevin Gentry
How was it in a Privileged background. This is a little bit of a leading question because I know a little bit about your background. Well, I grew up in the Depression and in a small town.
- [46:17]
Newt Gingrich
I think my high school graduating class.
- [46:18]
Kevin Gentry
Was 42, and three of us went to college. It was blue collar. And I had three stepsisters and a stepbrother and stepfather, and two of them.
- [46:34]
Newt Gingrich
Went to high school.
- [46:37]
Kevin Gentry
That was not unusual then. Right. And so that was my background. What did you do for jobs growing up? I want to get a little bit into your education and some influences there. But what did you do as a job? I know people of that era were desperate to do anything, but what were some of your first starts? It was natural to work. And I. I set pins in a bowling alley. Incidentally, you talk about AI losing jobs. There's no pinsetters in bowling alleys anymore. No, there's not. But that when the pinsetters came along, exploded the industry. And that, I think, is going to happen in AI going to explode employment. And I drove. That's a great point. Many people think it's the reverse, but of course, it's when you have these gains in productivity, prosperity increases, and there's just more opportunity broadly. And I.
- [47:36]
Newt Gingrich
Caddied.
- [47:38]
Kevin Gentry
I drove a truck collecting eggs and chickens and horse manure and horses. I worked in a factory. I worked in a cemetery. I might have left a few jobs out. How old were you when you were driving a truck? 15. 15. Okay. Times are a little different back then. Amazing. Well, if I recall correctly, you weren't necessarily thinking big at that point in your life. And so I always ask guests on this program about what effect a particular mentor or coach or teacher had in their life. Was there something that happened at your life at that point that changed your perspective on how you might be able to go big? I was a smart aleck in junior high school. You were a smart aleck?
- [48:35]
Todd
Yeah.
- [48:36]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I had my own card to.
- [48:38]
Newt Gingrich
Go to work and things like that.
- [48:40]
Kevin Gentry
And I was acting up in a civics class, and he said, stay after school.
- [48:47]
Todd
And I did.
- [48:47]
Kevin Gentry
And he asked me. I was prepared to give my smart act remarks. And he asked me, is he your teacher? Yes.
- [48:55]
Newt Gingrich
He asked me what I'm going to do on Sunday.
- [48:57]
Kevin Gentry
Well, generally I worked on Sunday. I said nothing.
- [48:59]
Newt Gingrich
So he said, I'd like to take.
- [49:01]
Kevin Gentry
You to a concert. So he took me to a concert in Cleveland at the Severance hall. And at the intermission, he said, you should go to college. That's when I decided to go to college. Wow. So, you know that's awesome that a teacher would do that. I don't think you hear that as much these days. But that the teacher would take an interest in you. He saw something in you that you were leaving something behind by being maybe a smart aleck or what have you. Did you go to college as a result? I had to change my personality in classes. So I moved from the back of class to the front and I did homework and I made sure that everybody knew I changed. It took a little while doing, but I did that. And if that teacher hadn't done that, I don't know what would happen.
- [49:52]
Todd
I have no idea.
- [49:54]
Kevin Gentry
Well, the power of mentorships. I think this is an under reported, under talked about, under discussed topic. And I think for the next several years we can tap into the power of mentorship even more where you and I can learn how we can apply lessons in our lives and, and help drive things even further along with great purpose. All right, let's now shift to the final topic. And that is leadership stepping forward. That big, bold vision, big hairy, audacious goals. When and how do we step forward in leadership? Well, we're going to hear from Doug DeVos, who is the second generation of leadership at Amway, a company that his father, Rich DeVos, co founded, and how he thinks about this global business and how they reach and inspire others still today. To the Reverend John Yates, one of the most prominent people in the Christian renewal movement, and how he thought about stepping forward in leadership in different ways. To Catherine Rowe, who is the president of William and Mary, helped establish the vision that has transported William and Mary now into one of the top ranked public universities in the United States. Lots of great discussion. Take a look. And you, you really, you and your family epitomize in my judgment, going big and have inspired me. So right out of the box, how do you think about people's potential, any person's potential? I, I mean, that is sort of the core of believing in people. But how do you think about our, our mind, yours, anyone's potential to do something with their life? Yeah, sure. Well, you know, to, to unpack some of these things as we talk about these principles. I'm going to go back to probably mostly Amway stories, if you don't mind, and talk about, you know, talk about the business that I grew up in and that I was part of, for, for virtually all my career and. Well, I guess I'm still part of it. I guess you never really leave. Right. So, so it, it really kind of comes down to believing in People and believing in potential. One of the things that my dad and his business partner, Jay Venandel, as co founders of Amway, that they talked about all the time, is that when you would give somebody an opportunity, they believe people would do something with it, and that just the expression of giving them an opportunity. They believed in the potential and the talents and the skills and the determination of the individual. And they never wavered on that. They were always believing that they spent all their time, and we've spent all of our time in the Amway business finding people from all walks of life say, you can do it. We believe in you. And that the performance of people that you never would have expected, that you would have thought, oh, that, you know, you're in a meeting and you see somebody and go, well, this person over here, I bet they're going to be really successful. They have this, you know, educational background. They have this sort of business background, and I bet they're going to be great. And maybe they were great in those areas, but they weren't very good at Amway. And then you'd find somebody else who maybe didn't, you know, have the same sort of background or the same sort of experience. But, boy, they had something inside of them and they were ready to learn and they were going to work hard. And they have turned into some of the greatest leaders we've ever seen in our business. And so you always have to look at the individual and say, somewhere in there is incredible potential, and I don't know what it's going to be to unlock it. There's a lot of great people who joined Amway who weren't successful, who are still great people outside of our business, right? Absolutely. They've done great things. But you believe that in everybody. And I believe it so strongly because that's been my experience, where you see people from different walks of life and you see what they do and you see how they work and you see what they create, and you see how they add value, and you see all the different ways in which people can do that, with different personality types, different skill sets, different objectives. And it solidifies this belief in the potential of all people to achieve great things and to really have impact for their own futures and their own life and for the people around them as well. So that's where it kind of all comes back to. Well, terrific. Well, I want to understand also what you think can sometimes hold people back. But to your point, I remember either you've told the story or your dad told the story, or maybe both Told the story. Well, if he told it, I probably just repeated it well, the time I think he was going to maybe move Malaysia and a meeting with the Prime Minister there. And, you know, we can get caught up in thinking like, well, I'm just not smart enough or I don't have the credentials or I don't have what's necessary. We don't need natural resources in a country, so to speak. It's a lot of times, it's just we have this possibility, this opportunity. Tell us the story. Sure, sure. So the, you know, this was many years ago. The Amway business had just started in Malaysia. This is in the late 1970s. And we had a good start. Business was going well. We were there. I happened to, I wasn't in this meeting with the Prime Minister, but I happened to be there for these, for the Amway meetings. And the conversation was just, you know, very cordial, talking about business and, and the prime Minister relayed to my father that it was a tough time economically for Malaysia, that the price of copper, tin and oil, which were Malaysia's greatest natural resources, was depressed on the global market and that was impacting their economy. And they talked about that a little bit. And then he turned the subject, said, but your business is growing. You're going to have thousands of people at this meeting tonight. You're, you're, you know, the business has been growing wonderfully. Well, you're investing in our country goes, well, what's the secret? And that's when he said, well, Mr. Prime Minister, you may believe your greatest natural resources in Malaysia are copper, tin and oil, but in Amway, we believe your greatest natural resources are the people of Malaysia. And in Amway, we invest in people. And that was just the, the fundamental elements again, of investing in people and believing in people and, and finding people. And from that business those early days, so many people and their families are still with Amway today. They've built big businesses. They've built, you know, incomes for themselves and for others that have stood the test of time and are continuing to, many of them continue to be active or their families or their descendants are being active. You talk a lot about team building, and you're, you're obviously a great leader, and that's another key to your success. And you talked about when you had Thomas Keller and Patrick o' Connell and Andy Ballute at the restaurant. It was really great for the team. I mean, like, wow, look where we are, who came to dine with us. And I think that speaks through this a lot. So how important in all of these efforts, thinking big, going big in the pursuit, relentless pursuit of excellence, do you think about the relationships and the team building aspect?
- [57:23]
Doug DeVos
I think it's by far the most important. I think everything else is a distant second. The reality is, I mean, hospitality is a team sport. It doesn't matter how hospitable I am. It doesn't matter how hospitable the best people on my team are. The weakest link can be the one that defines the way the hospitality of the whole is perceived by someone. Any leader who isn't spending a majority of their time thinking about how to train and educate and even more importantly, inspire the people on their team isn't a leader. They're just a manager. Because at the end of the day, we cannot succeed in any sort of critical way unless we get every single person on the team fully bought in and excited and inspired to believe in the spirit of our collective endeavor and want to give all of themselves to help it succeed. Yeah, I don't care who you are if you're not a good leader, unless you're, I don't know, a writer or a painter and you don't require a great team around you. But even in those cases, I mean, I could write a great book if I didn't have a great team around me to make it the best version of itself and then help get it out into the world, it wouldn't be what it is. No one is anything in the absence of a good team. And anyone who tries to tell you differently is either confused or misguided or. Or lying, honestly.
- [58:59]
Kevin Gentry
Well, thanks for sharing that because I think it's easy to slip into the notion of the relentless pursuit of excellence. Excellence is a singular thing that one person does. But thanks for emphasizing the importance or the absolute fundamental nature of the team building aspect. Well.
- [59:18]
Doug DeVos
Well, all of the pursuits, Kevin, they're all collective pursuits.
- [59:23]
Kevin Gentry
Right?
- [59:25]
Todd
Right.
- [59:26]
Doug DeVos
Full stop. And so it's a pursuit of excellence, it's a pursuit of hospitality. But it's not my pursuit. It's me trying to lead a team so that we can collectively pursue those things. And what that means is two things. It's telling them where we're going. Because people do crave leadership. They crave conviction in the leadership. And it's inviting as many of them as possible to sit with me so we can figure out how we're going to get there. People crave a sense of ownership.
- [59:55]
Kevin Gentry
Daily check ins or something. Is that something that you recommend, I recall correctly?
- [59:59]
Doug DeVos
Yeah. Daily huddle.
- [60:00]
Kevin Gentry
Daily huddle.
- [60:02]
Doug DeVos
I Think it's the most powerful thing anyone can do in any business is just take some number of minutes on a daily basis to get aligned and not just say, all right, today, Kevin, remember we're doing this podcast. Get on there at this time and make sure to put the URL into Chrome for Riverside. Like, not that, like, don't, don't talk about the stuff. You could just communicate via an email. It's when you actually inspire people. TED Talks are so famous and popular because very few people have anyone in their lives who actually has answered the call to inspire them. And so we farm out our inspiration to strangers over the Internet. If you, if people work for you, you have a responsibility to inspire them because we all need to be inspired. And if it's not coming from you, then I'm not sure where they're going to find it.
- [60:54]
Kevin Gentry
All right, there's still so much more to talk about, but let's go back to management, because you mentioned Peter Drucker. What did Peter Drucker teach you about this as well? Because what you just went through was some brilliant political strategy. Maybe some of us fortuitous, but it turned out really well. But what about the management side? What, what did, what would you offer to those listening about what Drucker might say?
- [61:16]
Newt Gingrich
Look, I tell everybody who's interested in leadership that they should get, they should buy in paperback. Drucker is the effective executive. 167 pages. They should underline it, reread it once a year till they thoroughly understand it. It's the most powerful single book I've ever read about being effective. And, you know, part, part of if, if you're going to do this, you want to be effective doing it. I later on got to know Drucker. I read a bunch of his other books. I interacted with him a fair amount. I also had the remarkable opportunity to take a 90 hour tutorial with Edwards Deming.
- [61:56]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, wow.
- [61:56]
Newt Gingrich
Who's the father of the Quality Movement and who's not a very good writer, unlike Drucker. So it was really good for me that I could sit at his knee and ask questions. But, you know, you're both trying to lead a national movement. You're trying to manage the house, which means in our case, we had 230 to 240 members. But what you're really trying to do is shape national policy and reshape this enormous bureaucracy. Well, if you don't have a fair amount of management skills, you can't possibly do all that stuff. And so I spent a lot of time studying management, how to manage, how to get things done, reading pretty widely in management literature in that period. And I think it was extraordinarily helpful in teaching me how to get a wide range of things done very fast.
- [62:50]
Kevin Gentry
Well, first of all, love that you're a lifelong learner and the humility even to say something like that. But you're obviously, I mean, you grounded things in history. You're talking about strategy, you're talking about, talking about business management. Deming, Drucker. All right, so you were well known for generating a lot of ideas. And I, and I was interviewing Richard Vigory the other day, and he talked about how oftentimes you would go to that, that blackboard and put vision, goals, strategy, and I think tactics project, and you would go through that maybe once a day or however many times Joel would do that. Bob Walker and others come up with those sorts of things. But, but how did you set priorities? Because again, you, you had lots of ideas. How do you set priorities? Because there are only but so many things that you can do.
- [63:37]
Newt Gingrich
Well, first of all, we develop very early, and I think this is probably derived from Drucker, the notion of importing knowledge and exporting work. So as often as possible, I recruit other people. You can't actually delegate. You don't have that kind of. There's not a structure like that. But I try to recruit other people and I try to find ways to collaborate so that I'm not having to do all of them myself. Second, you have to distinguish between large strategic projects, for example, balancing the federal budget and specific small opportunities. I mean, there are times you can do something which moves the process forward, and you can do it in two or three hours. It gets done, it's over. It's not a big achievement, but you've moved the system a little bit. And then there are projects when we went about balancing the federal budget, that was. It took us four years. And we are the only team in the last hundred years to have balanced the budget four times in a row.
- [64:37]
Kevin Gentry
Yep.
- [64:38]
Newt Gingrich
And we did it based on principles, not based on theory. I mean, we were applying very methodically management principles that work. And we were able to so decisively balance the budget that when I left office, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, gave a speech saying that he thought we would probably pay off the national debt by 2009.
- [65:03]
Kevin Gentry
And we pulled that back a lot today.
- [65:06]
Newt Gingrich
Well, the people who followed us didn't have a clue what we were doing. And it all collapsed once I left.
- [65:11]
Kevin Gentry
Yep. But we Quote that back a lot today. Those who are concerned about the debt and deficit, about that very thing. And what Greenspan observed, what you're doing, I want to tackle that a little bit later. There's so much to tackle. Okay, so the contract with America, 1994, how did that come about? What inspired that vision? I know Dick army was a big part of that, but I remember the summer meeting of the Republican National Committee in Los Angeles happened to be there. Our good friend Haley Barber was the chairman and he said, you know, I think we've been saying all these years, there really is a chance this year to win. And then you all came out with the Contract with America. Talk about that.
- [65:52]
Newt Gingrich
Well, we needed a core document which couldn't be too long. So 10 was about the right number. I mean, 10 works for the 10 commandments. 10 is the way the Romans organized their legions. So 10 was the right number. And every issue in the Contract had to have 65 to 80% support. So that the act of saying it. Excuse me. If you were a local candidate, you'd never run for Congress before. You're on talk radio. If you could just repeat the contract, you could get through the interview and on every single question you'd be in 2/3 to 80% of the audience would be listening, would be agreeing with you. So that was the goal. And then second, we wanted it to be operational. We were very specific. We will vote on these. Excuse me. We didn't say we'll pass them because we couldn't guarantee passage. And in fact, we didn't pass line item veto. And we passed balance budget amendment in the House, but not in the Senate. We've been lost by one vote in the Senate. So we wanted a measurable commitment that you could check off. And in fact, every time we did one of the 10, I'd go to the floor with the original document and I would put a paper clamp, you know, I put a hole punch in it. And that's now in the Smithsonian because we, we wanted to prove we were keeping our word. And that's part of why we got reelected in 96 for the first time in literally 68 years. I mean, that 96 in some ways was a bigger achievement than 94. And the other thing we did is a terrific book by Tom Evans called the Education of Ronald Reagan.
- [67:46]
Kevin Gentry
Yes.
- [67:46]
Newt Gingrich
Which describes his eight years at General Electric.
- [67:50]
Kevin Gentry
That was Lynn Bullware, the, the employee relations guy who was really trying to educate this very unionized workforce about the ideas of free enterprise. And Ronald Reagan was his partner Right.
- [68:02]
Newt Gingrich
And if you read that and you understand what Bolvar's concept was, which was if you move the mass of the voters, the leaders have to follow it, which led Reagan to characterize it as saying his job was to turn up the light on the American people so that they would turn up the heat on Congress. And in Reagan's mind, he triangulated between the American people, the Congress and himself. And as long as he and the American people on the same side, they would force the Congress to do the right thing. Well, that was the model we applied. And so we were presenting Bill Clinton with a series of choices in which he could either be with the American people and get reelected, or he could oppose us and get defeated. And again and again, he would pick working with us.
- [68:53]
Kevin Gentry
You're trying to retire. You're. You've been there 40 years. You had some knee surgery. You've had some other things to deal with. I remember you were taking Ubers to parishioners house because you couldn't drive because of your knee, to meet with various folks. But you found this property, the church found this property. And you also, our church, found a successor to you, which is when a big person steps out in leadership, almost effectively founding that modern church. It's tough. And it was somebody actually, that you had trained up as a Timothy Sam Ferguson, an amazing pastor, just amazing preacher. Just close us out with that. And then I've got two closing questions for you.
- [69:42]
Reverend John Yates
People came to me and said, john, we think there's a possibility that we could buy this office building and that could be our headquarters. We could rent out most of it, and that would enable us to pay the mortgage on that building. There's enough property to build a church there. Fairfax county came in and said, you need to build a parking garage to accommodate 552 cars. We had to do that before we could build the church. So our leadership had come to me and said, john, you've worked hard. We love you. We want you to be able to retire, but we, we really need you to see us through this time. Please don't step aside until we've got a new place and we feel like we're on our feet. And I, you know, the call to come to Falls Church had always been strong. The reason I never left to take any other job was God always said, you stay where you are. I'm not finished with you yet. I've still got work for you to do. And so we. I had no idea that we could raise enough money to purchase this land, this Office building to do what we did. But I learned two things. I learned that if I, I learned again that God is faithful. And secondly, I learned that if you, if you are trying to raise money for something good people believe in, they will give. The third thing I learned was a lot of people in Washington have a lot more money than I knew they had never cared about that. But all those, all those snowy night visits in people's homes were precious and people gave generously and so worked out and we began building the building. We could see it, we could see what it was going to be like. And, and so I went to our leadership and I've said it's time to call somebody to take my place. I'm going to be in my mid-70s. My wife needs me. We set up a, a committee. I, I, I set up the committee with the vestry's permission, but I said I will not be on it. I don't want to choose my successor. Yeah, I'd love it if you call my son, but I'd probably be awkward. You do what you think is right.
- [72:12]
Kevin Gentry
We did an international search. We interviewed candidates from other countries and lots of different people applied. And I know it must have been tough not knowing exactly what we were gonna do. I think we were actually in our basement at our home the night when the vestry announced the decision. Wow. And you joined us. But we didn't know what the decision, you didn't know what the decision was going to be.
- [72:37]
Reverend John Yates
I thought it would be wrong if I tried to influence this decision and for you.
- [72:46]
Kevin Gentry
Because there are a lot of leaders that couldn't do that and that creates a lot of challenge.
- [72:51]
Reverend John Yates
But I was so happy with the choice. It was a great blessing to be able to introduce him to the congregation that day day and turn over the reigns of leadership to him.
- [73:00]
Kevin Gentry
Well, the church is thriving and it's thriving in so many ways. All right, here the, here the wrap up questions first.
- [73:05]
Reverend John Yates
Yeah.
- [73:06]
Kevin Gentry
For young pastors today. Now thinking back, even over your life, but even where they are today, I think, I believe you still have a community of these young pastors. You bring them out here to the farm.
- [73:18]
Reverend John Yates
I try to stay closely connected with and be some sort, some sort of a man mentor to young pastors. Our, Our Timothy's, most of our Timothy's still me. I meet with them as I can and, and they do come. We, we all meet here at the farmhouse twice a year for an overnight retreat and we have a great time together. They're all, they're mentoring other people. Now you know, but it's a, it's a blessing. And I, I guess there's so many things that I try to communicate to these young men. But I would say if, if I'm talking to a young man who's trying to find God's way in his life and do well, whether it's leading a church, whatever, I would say, first of all, I would say love, listen to, and pray with your wife. That's the first thing I'd say. And then I'd say, learn what you do best. Figure out where your gifts are and where they're not. Pay attention to your dreams. Pay attention to the things that get you really excited as you get moving. Try to find people who have gifts that you don't have. You, you can't do it all. You need to find people who are better than you are in certain ways. Have close, trusted friends who know you well, who will give you good, honest feedback on how you're doing as a person, how you're doing as a leader and the work that you're called to do. People who will be truly devoted to you, who will encourage you, but who will confront you when you need it. Most leaders don't like that. A real leader, a, a godly leader, wants feedback, wants to know when he's screwing up. He doesn't like to hear it, but he knows he needs to and he wants to. And, and, and I'd say when you're a young man, you got to figure out the principles that are going to determine the kind of man you're going to be, figure out what those guiding principles are, and always stay true to them.
- [75:48]
Kevin Gentry
Well, let me take it back to the beginning about finding your gift, your calling. What would you say to people who are listening or watching today who think maybe they, they know their calling, but they just can't quite step out in faith? What, what advice would you give?
- [76:08]
Reverend John Yates
You know, the, the, the perfect opportunity may just present itself, and that's wonderful if that happens. But I, I, someone said to me, you can't drive a parked car. It's got to be rolling if you're going to steer it somewhere. So you've got to start move, you've got to figure out what direction you want to move in and start moving in that direction and see how it goes. People have different talents. You know, Jesus said there are one talent people, five talent people, ten talent people. You never know what you're going to be able to do, but you might as well think as big as you can and, and Try to discern where you have passion and pursue it in any way that you can. Pay attention to people in your life who inspire you and try to find a way to learn from what you've learned from them and begin to put some building blocks together in your own life. You don't have to put that many together at first, but I, I would say you want to. You want to live a life that is helpful to other people. If you just want to make a lot of money and take care of yourself, God bless you. That's not what I'm interested in. I want to encourage people to live a life where, where they make a difference in the community and in the nation. And so I would say what. Whatever you feel you're called to do, learn to pay attention to people, always have relationships with people, and figure out what concerns people have, what things are, what things are hard for people in life where they need help, and try to figure out ways that you can help. I mean, if you. If you're living in false church and you've got kids in elementary school and you begin to meet other parents who. They're concerned about the quality of the schools and run for the school board or whatever you can do, try to find ways that you can serve other people and pursue them, whether it's through your work or just through your volunteer activities. I think start with small goals. Don't be afraid to fail. We all fail that. That's how we learn important lessons. But don't go it alone. I guess that would be the theme song of my life. Don't go it alone.
- [78:47]
Kevin Gentry
Nice.
- [78:47]
Reverend John Yates
You've got to be closely connected with other people who help you, who believe in you, and who you can love.
- [78:54]
Kevin Gentry
All right, well, now let's jump to this other hat that you've worn, and that's in philanthropy. First, if you could just share a little bit more about why your parents decided to pursue philanthropy through the value they had created through the accumulation of some wealth and building that business and how you see that today, and then why you've chosen to join, like the board of directors of the Bradley Foundation. How do you view philanthropy? And then I'll get to how you balance it all. But let's talk more about your family background and your personal background and motivation in philanthropy. Yeah, well, again, my father grew up.
- [79:34]
Doug DeVos
In the Great Depression, served in the U.S. army in World War II. He believed in giving back to the community. Now, I know some conservatives, even conservative philanthropists, don't like the term give back, because that sounds like we Took something to begin with and we didn't deserve it. Therefore, we have to give it back. No, we earned the money. My father earned the money, which is.
- [79:57]
Kevin Gentry
Bored of my mother, but it was.
- [79:59]
Doug DeVos
Earned with a team, with our associates, with our customers. So yes, we want to give back to the communities where our employees live, where our customers are, that helped us earn that money. But more importantly, what my father meant, he literally meant give back to future generations so they would have the same opportunity and succeed that he had. You know, my father, I'm not going to say my father grew up in a log cabin. He grew up in rural North Carolina, my mother on the banks of the Cape Fear and on a farm. And when I was born, I came home not for Silver Spoon, but in a three bedroom, one bath rental house, sharing a bedroom with my sister again, I was a baby.
- [80:40]
Kevin Gentry
I'm sure she didn't appreciate that, being a little bit older while my father.
- [80:44]
Doug DeVos
Is getting the business off the ground. But that's what you do, succeed. And then when you do succeed and you have the opportunity to give, to give back, my father thought you should. And I learned that from my father. And I believe in that sincerely.
- [80:56]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I confess I reached out to a number of recent students, current students, faculty, even alums of my generation for ideas on questions. And one interesting insight I got was that many people said who've worked with you that you're a very good listener, you have an ability. I don't know if you've ever gotten this feedback before, but you're a very good listener. It's obvious that you're just paying close attention to what people are saying in the room and you're kind of processing and organizing that. How important is that to going big with respect to effective leadership? Oh, it's absolutely essential. I suppose I get that from years of classroom teaching, discussion based teaching. But when you want to go big, you have to really listen to your. If it's in business, it's your customer. If it's in higher ed, it's your students. That's who we're here for. And the story that I gave you about Pandemic, listening to that senior say the challenges, finishing the semester in quarantine, if you're not listening really hard, you're going to miss incredibly important opportunities and you're going to not understand who you serve. That's really why listening matters. If you understand who you serve, what they need, and you can test that out. So we didn't just take one person's example. We went and Surveyed the students. If you understand who you serve, then you can leap far with them. You can't go big alone, I don't think. You can't scale something alone. I'll give you another example. We five years ago launched a civics curriculum for all incoming students called Better Arguments. And we started with some principles that the Aspen Institute uses for small group conversation. And for us, the exercise was, how do we scale that to something less than 10,000 students and something around 3,500 employees? We started with the students with an incoming class and the student affairs team and librarians who were developing the program redesigned to scale first to all incoming students with students as the peer facilitators. After that first year, they refined, they expanded the peer facilitation group. Interestingly, one of the key premises, there's five premises of better arguments. How do you argue with somebody that you deeply disagree with in a way that's productive? Is the question. One of the key premises is listen passionately. And so the whole campus has leaned into that in those subsequent years. It's what stood us in good stead last year. It's why this campus argued with each other in a way that was ultimately pretty deeply respectful, even around things that were really tough with the war in the Middle East. And it's one of the things I prize about being here. My little informal focus group had two follow up related things, and you've already touched on them, and that is that how do you, first of all, do you have a specific advice for any of us listening, how we can be better listeners. It's great advice from an aspirational standpoint, but it's not easy to execute if you're doing well by it. Any particular tips? Well, when I first became an administrator, I put a sticky note up on my wall and it said, shut up. And I look at that and I reminded myself for about five years, it's not, this meeting is not about me talking. This meeting is about me being curious. So that was one, you know, make rules for yourself that will help you give the airtime to the people you're trying to understand. I think the second thing, if you haven't had a moment in which you reflect on what it feels like to be curious in your body. Have you, have you ever done that? Just say, what does it feel like when I'm curious? Ask yourself that question. Try to name it. And if you spend 15, 20 minutes really working that through and getting the feeling in your body, you can put yourself back in that place and you can start a meeting there. So some of this is about the kinds of mindfulness practices that get stronger by habit, just constant repetition. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I hope not only this particular segment on stepping forward in leadership has proven valuable to you, but also the conversation about mentorship and risk taking. But the whole idea and concept of the Going Big podcast proves valuable to you, and I hope you'll keep coming back and sharing this with others. You know, whether you want to change things through public policy or some other aspect of social change, or in business and through entrepreneurship or just in your life in some other way, whatever you want to do to apply the special gifts you have to contribute in a meaningful way to help improve the lives of others so that you can lead a very meaningful and purposeful life. I hope you'll still keep thinking about how you can go big, and I also hope that you'll give me continued recommendations and suggestions of how we can make these episodes even more valuable to you and your friends. Please email me anytime. Kevin Gentry nxtrategies.com that's T E N X strategies.com Would love to get your ideas. This is how we continually improve and hopefully make this even more valuable to you and you, your friends and colleagues for many years to come. All right. Until then, let's keep going big. Remember, the only things that stand in the way of really making a contribution are those barriers that we self impose. Let's keep on Going Big. Thanks a lot.