← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
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- [00:00]
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You're not going to reinvigorate our democracy unless you start with the individual choices that we can control, meaning our own. And so personal renewal is exactly what I've tried to talk about here in this discussion and in the book. It's about making the tough choices and preparing to make tough choices and then doing your best to do the right thing, drawing the line ahead of time of where you will not go and navigating with principles through this environment. It's a great opportunity for service, but it's also a seductive arrangement in which you can get off the rails pretty easily.
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Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to life. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube, or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Welcome to another episode of the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry. Over the last several months, this podcast, we've talked a lot about the American experiment, our founding leadership, faith, and how all these things can come together and guide us at critical times. We've talked with historians, authors, public officials, business leaders, builders of all kinds of and on today's episode, we're actually going to bring that all together into one and talk about how that affects our future. My guest today is my longtime friend, Frank Atkinson, who has served at all levels of government. He has been at the closest elements, the front lines of power. He has been a writer, he's been a public official himself. He's been a lawyer just in many regards, and has seen firsthand how things happen, political decisions, policy is made, how people act in moments of crisis, whether they rise to the occasion or they don't. And something that's been heavily on him for the last several decades is how to bring that into a discussion where we can learn how can we learn about how to bring virtue more effectively into public life. And. And he's done this quite fascinatingly in this new novel called the Lion's Den, which he just released. And this is what I'm really interested to talk about today. This is a novel shaped by the biblical story of Daniel, but also the ideas and leadership of James Madison and George Washington. And it all comes together in a fascinating way, and it provides a lot of instruction for us about how do we lead, how can a democracy endure when we want to lead with courage and integrity and humility and virtue, but it seems so often we reward those who don't engage in that same way. So, Frank, it's a real delight to have you on this podcast today, and I'm so glad we can have this conversation together.
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Great to be with you, Kevin.
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B
All right, well, I'm going to dive in for anyone listening, especially perhaps a younger listener. Do you believe after many decades of engagement in public life, that someone who is motivated by principle can act to advance those principles without compromising them?
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A
Yes, I do, but it's sure not easy, right? I mean, this is the central struggle, I think, in politics and really in life, which is the can you be both successful and faithful? Can you be both principled and practical? Can you get stuff done but still do stuff? Right? And I think that, you know, it is a particularly challenging assignment these days because we live in a time of some considerable stress test for democracy, some challenges, divisiveness. Not the worst time, I don't think, but challenging. And so I really think that what it comes down to is realizing that in a democracy, it's all about making choices, and the only choice we can really control is our own. And so if we look at it that way and then we look ourselves in the mirror, what do we see? I think hopefully what we see is a real tension between these ideas of practicality and principle, between doing things right and just getting things done. They're in tension, they're in conflict often. But what's interesting is they are also interdependent. I mean, think about it. How can you. What good does it do to be in politics if you're only in it to advance yourself? You're not in it for a higher purpose. It's just, you know, it's ego gratification and little more, and that's certainly not going to improve anyone's life. But conversely, what good does it do to be working for higher purposes if you never get elected, never have a chance to accomplish things that improve society? So I think that these, these. These ideas, that's what they are and are intention. But it's a very healthy kind of tension. It's actually sort of in politics, as in life, these choices that we must make that really reflect our character and determine sort of first and foremost who we want to be and how we want to treat other human beings and how we want to be treated ourselves. So, yes, I think it can be done, but I think it begins with a recognition that there's a tension there, sometimes a healthy tension. And often it seems like perhaps an unhealthy tension, but definitely it's a challenge. Challenge. And that's why I wrote the book, as you suggested in the intro, really trying to show rather than tell as, as the saying goes, some of those lessons, because I think we learned from seeing how other people chose and chose well.
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B
Well, okay, Yuri, you've packed a lot in here. And, you know, we're human. We're. We're fallen creatures. We aspire to be better political life, public life, leadership. There are all kinds of things that relate to the way we live our lives. And so I think it's great that you did this in the form of a novel. I loved it. I read it cover to cover in one sitting one afternoon. And there's some themes, there's some ways that you approach this. There's some subjects I think it's useful to unpack as part of this podcast conversation. Frank, you and I first got to know each other in politics at the time, both in volunteer politics in the 1980s, I might say the glorious times of Ronald Reagan. He was a, you know, in our judgment, yours and mine, I think I can safely say a virtuous guy who was trying to do good, very deeply principled. We rallied around him and he was victorious. And his reelection campaign in 1984 was stunning in terms of the landslide victory. It seemed like a vindication for all that was good. And then you and I worked together in some campaigns, and then we saw the agony of defeat where we thought the same similar situation was happening, but the voters didn't see it the way we did, and it was just a crushing defeat. You've said that you started thinking about writing this book when you were in your 30s, sometime after you and I started working together. What was going on, if I might ask, internally, that had you start to think about this in a different way or in a way that you did and then has brought about this book today?
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A
Yeah. Thank you for asking that question, because it really. I want to pay tribute to the person who first introduced me to the Book of Daniel. It was Pastor Thomas Nance, and he did a sermon series at our local church on the Book of Daniel. And I certainly had heard the Daniel stories growing up, but I hadn't really thought about its relevance to someone trying to live A principled existence, principled in the sense of their faith, principled in the sense of other values in a very alien culture. He was a captive in Babylonia, and yet he rose to the ranks and became a high ranking official. And then he sort of fell victim to the politics and survived the famous lion's den only by providential intervention. But I found in that story something of what I was just talking about in terms of this tension between conforming to the culture in order to get things done versus standing, working productively inside the culture, but sticking to your principles and not conforming to the culture, not surrendering to. Just occurred to me that this had tremendous relevance for the people that you and I have known in politics for years, but also just ordinary citizens. And so that led to the notion, well, if I take some of these same stories, substantially similar stories, and put them in a contemporary novel that people can relate to, perhaps a little better, maybe that will help some of them find their way and make good choices and maybe even find their way to the Book of Daniel for the real thing. So that began sort of a 30 year odyssey. I had a couple of other jobs that kept me pretty busy, and so I wasn't writing constantly. But it began a process of sort of. This idea of this novel came about pretty immediately after that sermon series. And so just as I experienced various things in politics over the next 30 years, if it was an interesting story or I learned an interesting lesson, or more likely made a mistake that I learned from, I thought, well, let's take that and see if that doesn't have a place in the story. So what you've got is sort of a 30 year odyssey of being involved in the practice of law, serving in public life, doing some political writing, but against the backdrop, always of thinking, you know, I would love to take that essential story and translate it in an authentic way and in an entertaining way, there's plenty of intrigue in the lion's den. It's hopefully a fun read because nobody gets the message of the book if they don't find the book entertaining and stay with it. But that's really what happened. And it was interesting because at that time I was on the brink of several developments in my career. I was about to make partner as a litigator at my firm, McGuire Woods. We were on the verge of winning that 1993 governor's race and me serving in Governor George Allen's administration. And we were right on the verge of publishing my first nonfiction book about Virginia politics. But somewhere deep inside, you know, I was like, well, to what end is all this and where's it all going? And I think that in many ways, as I reflect back on it now, that being introduced to the story of Daniel and the larger issues that it pointed to really, really has had a profound impact on, on Anacortes resulted in this, in this book.
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B
Well, okay, so as you mentioned, Daniel was engaged in political life, but he didn't let it define him. And I think we have this sort of innate point about ourselves that we want to reward those who are consistent and committed to principle, even if it's their principles are different from us. We tend to acknowledge and appreciate and admire those that stick to their principles. And you and I, over time we often heard talk about somebody got into politics and well, they sold out. You know, they came in for the right motivations, but they sold out. And yet we know that compromise is virtually necessary in order for a democracy to work. Where does this sort of balance hit? I mean, is this what you're trying to, is this sort of your holy Grail that you're trying to answer through the book? How is it that you can stay true to your principles, to your virtues, to not selling your soul, yet still be effective at the end of the day? Is that what you're trying to demonstrate so that you can still inspire us to want to participate?
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A
Absolutely. The framers go back to the founders because that's the other thing that's prominent in this book, as you mentioned, gave us a form of government that required competition, that invited competition, of course, but also because of the checks and balances, made sure that we were going to always, almost always lead to a brokered result in which there had to be compromises. And they were trying to make room for the emergence of consensus and what even then they knew was going to be a very diverse and large and raucous republic. And I think that when you understand that those habit that that's, that's the system we've got. Compromise can't be a dirty word. Compromise is often an inevitable outcome. But each of these decisions requires the judgment, correct? I mean, you've got to weigh what are your values, what are the non negotiable things here that if you surrender those, you sort of surrendered the main things you stand for and are fighting for. On the other hand, elevating everything to a matter of principle and then falling on your sword on it doesn't advance the ball at all. And I think today we've got a situation where we can talk about this if you want but it's a bit of a different, takes us down a different road. But the, the system invites a lot of criticism of others. You've got lots of communication channels to convey your complaints and grievances. You've got audiences there waiting to receive and applaud them and agree with you. What it is not rewarding as much and in fact is often punishing is people who say, look, I've. This is a, this is a democracy. This is a process. We are working out our way to a public policy goal or an outcome in a system the framers gave us that sort of required us to treat the other side's view with respect and even have to take it into account because we don't have the power typically in and of ourselves, to do things. So compromise can be an awful thing in the wrong situation. It can be a great thing in the right situation. And what I try to do in the lion's den is really talk about how we get, get ourselves ready to make these decisions. I mean, the first thing is to recognize that the tension I talked about earlier and to recognize that these are going to be hard choices, tough choices, and to begin to equip ourselves to make those choices well. And that's where good stories always are. The best way of learning, whether it's stories and examples from history or case of Daniel, from the Bible or from other texts, literature, as well as sort of the school of hard knocks. I mean the, the old saw that, well, how do you avoid mistakes to experience how you get experience? You make mistakes. So it's your, it's also being alert to the lessons you're learning as you learn them. Politics, as we all know, is a pretty fast paced thing. It's very easy to blow right through it. Never pause to reflect on any of these things. And so I think the preparation and most of all, knowing where you will draw the line. What is non negotiable? What's non negotiable ethically, morally? What's non negotiable in terms of fidelity to the Constitution or to other core principles that you have? And so I don't think that the answer to your question is compromise is good or bad. I think compromise is, is inevitable and always a possibility. The real issue is how do we make these choices, whether they lead to a defiant stand on principle or to compromising some of the details. How do we make these choices? How are we intentional about it? How do we prepare ourselves for it? Because I think the political arena is unusually seductive. There is a tremendous temptation or tendency to rationalize, to think that the ends justify the means, particularly if the end is your own advancement. And you're wonderful. So your advancement must be good for everybody. And so these choices and recognizing these challenges, I think is in equipping yourself for them very intentionally, is knowing where you will draw the line. That's the real nub of the issue.
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B
All right. Well, very intrigued that you took the form of a novel to tell these stories in a very, very effective manner, which I'll say. And I want to get more into the novel in just a bit. But you said that, you know, the initial spark for this were a series of sermons, the Reverend Tommy Nance, at your church, about the Book of Daniel, the Story of Daniel. But in the novel, there are a lot of founders, in fact, almost all of which I believe are Virginians, who are indispensable in making the point that you're trying to make. And they're in many ways the foundational element of your arguments. You're a historian. I reached out to a number of your friends about what questions I might ask today on the podcast, and they all prefaced it by saying no one knows more about Virginia politics and modern Virginia politics and Virginia history than Frank Atkinson asking those questions. Well, we don't have time to do that. People have to get your other books, your historical books, to get that. But that said, in addition to the Story of Daniel, you take a lot from James Madison and George Washington. Why them in particular? Why not Patrick Henry also? Why not George Mason? Why did you focus as much as you did on lessons from them to influence how you wrote this novel?
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A
Well, all the founders, it was a remarkable convergence, and many founders contributed in very different ways and significant ways. Washington, I think, was the one indispensable person. But you're right, you could pick a number of exemplars from the founding era to talk about. I guess the first thing to point out is that the reason there's history prominently in the novel is that Danny Daniel, my main character, is historically interested, historically aware, and draws important lessons about moral choices in politics, ethical choices as well as practical accomplishment. From looking at what the Founders did as to why Madison and Washington. Madison has always intrigued me. Madison was, you know, this small, sickly, shy person, had no. And wrote to his college roommate that he had no interest in politics whatsoever. But he saw the mistreatment of some of the dissenting religious groups, particularly the Baptists up in Orange county, and he just was indignant that. That we would have a system that didn't allow people to have free thought. And so that was the catalyst for him to then get involved in politics. And of course he became involved in politics, became involved in government, became instrumental in a number of ways leading up to the Constitution. Was a pivotal, perhaps the pivotal figure in the Constitution, working with George Washington and then implementing the Constitution in the first Congress. So Madison, it seems to me, was the founder that was probably least interested in what history thought of him. He was not preening for the history books. And the amount of attention he gets these days perhaps is a reflection of that. He got what he wanted, but I think that he deserves a great deal more attention. Washington, of course, you know, is a signal figure in the history of not only American politics, but really everything that has flowed from the American Revolution, not so much just because he commanded it, but because he surrendered power, as we all know that story, not once, but twice. But I particularly enjoyed highlighting a little bit the collaboration between Madison and Washington. It's something that doesn't get nearly enough attention. There were numerous significant collaborations. You had Madison, Hamilton and Jay on the Federalist Papers. You had Hamilton and Washington on setting up the commercial system. You had Jefferson and Madison collaborating first on religious liberty in Virginia with the Virginia Statute and, and then ultimately leading the development of, and success of a new political party. But I think one of the most consequential collaborations in our history was the work that Madison did in getting Washington to that convention to preside over it and organizing that whole enterprise. The work that they did often behind the scenes in terms of their collaboration. And then, you know, when Washington becomes president, you've got Madison writing messages from Congress to the President and then ghostwriting messages from the President back to Congress. He's writing letters to himself as the crucial developments in bringing the plan of government to life happen during that period. And of course, even the ratification of the Constitution. It was Washington's importuning the God Madison to leave Philadelphia and get back to the ratification debate in Richmond, which was a very dicey proposition. And there somehow he managed to out debate the person Jefferson called the greatest orator of all time, Patrick Henry, and win that fight for the ratification. So what do I take from that that's relevant? There are a number of things in the novel I leave it to the readers, viewers to pick up on those. One thing that I will flag is that keeping your promises is something that to me is one of those core values and it's very important in public life in a democracy because it's a bond of trust between the voters and the people that they elect. And Madison never thought we needed a Bill of Rights. He thought the Constitution protected all those rights without saying it. He even worried that spelling out some rights without spelling out others would suggest that only the listed rights were the rights. And he had Jefferson pounding on him, saying, you need a Bill of rights. And he had the Virginia Convention. So he sort of left there with the implication that there would be a Bill of Rights. But mainly in the election to the first Congress, it was those same friends and allies among the dissenting religious groups, particularly the Baptists, that said, look, if you aren't going to support a bill of rights, we're not going to support you. We'll support this guy, James Monroe, who's running against you. And Madison made the commitment. And then when he got to Congress, the Federalists control Congress, so he could have easily reneged on the pledge. They all thought he should renege on the pleasure. They all said, we've got much bigger fish to fry. And Madison said, and he's probably the only guy who could have gotten. He was, I'm sure, the only guy who could have gotten the Bill of Rights through. But he said, no, we, we. This is what we're going to do. We said, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. And I think it's a great lesson there. Not everybody can be a Madison. We're not, you know, not blessed to each be at the Founding era, but we each are faced with decisions to stand on principle and keep our promises and try to do the right thing or to sacrifice those things to something else. And what typically something else is, is personal advancement in politics. So those historical lessons, I mean, you're right. There could have been any number of founders and any number of lessons, But I particularly like the story of Madison and very improbable collaboration with. With the great George Washington.
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B
Well, you know, for much of our lives, the founders have actually been placed on this elevated level. I think only in more recent years, there have been many challenges. Certainly the tremendous contradiction of calling for equality and freedom, and yet people are still enslaved. There's lots of that. But, you know, you mentioned the crazy famous congressional race that involved Madison and Monroe, and you had the machinations of these others and Jefferson and stuff. There's so much rich Virginia history. How do you write something? How do you write a piece of fiction when if you just told the history, there's plenty of stuff, some crazy stuff to make it interesting. How do you tell an interesting story that touches on history without effectively retelling history that we all know, that's got to be a little bit of a challenge.
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A
Well, hopefully the story. The story is full of intrigue. You know, fortunately in Virginia these days, we haven't had assassinations, we haven't had a governor, drug overdose. Not to. Not to reveal too much about some of the things that happened in the lion's den, but, you know, some really serious stuff happens there. And. And as crazy as Virginia politics has been, we haven't had those sorts of things, but certainly some of using the historical lessons and weaving them into a current tale that hopefully is, you know, I think, first, the tale, a story, has to be entertaining, hold the interest. Second, it's got to be authentic. And, you know, that's why I chose the Virginia setting, because I knew something about it and thought I could write an interesting story against that backdrop. But third, it's got to have a point to it, a message. Not every piece of literature does, but certainly the goal of this book required that. And then you start thinking about the interesting things that can happen, some of which parallel events or reflect events that did happen, some of which, you know, are things that have happened in other states or other times. And you just weave a story about them. The moral dilemmas, the moral choices, and I use that word hesitantly because I don't think they typically present themselves as moral choices. They present themselves as just choices. You have to overlay your sense of ethics and principle on those choices for them to become moral choices. And that's why the equipping for that eventuality is so important. But, yeah, Virginia politics is so rich, and I think we feel in Virginia a special responsibility for stewardship of a lot of these founding stories, because not all of them are from Virginia, but certainly a number of the key ones were. It's important when you do that to recognize the flaws you pointed to some of them. We've certainly had our failures, our. Our violations of principles and falling short of the ideals that the great Virginia founders articulated. But I think that putting a contemporary story, tale against the backdrop of Virginia history, both past and present, has the advantage of showing the value of the history for current decision making. And that's the reason it's so prominent in the.
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B
All right, well, I gotta ask you this then. So obviously you've had a front row seat to so much of Virginia politics for the last several decades. You're writing a fictional account of these characters, but you have to acknowledge real world events. I mean, you acknowledge, for example, you can't talk about September 11, 2001, without talking about the attacks that happen on Virginia's soil. Yet so much of the stuff is fictional that you talk about. How in the world can we read this and not see people that we know about? How do you create fictional characters, characters and incidents that don't also clearly connect to something that happened and that you remembered and that you experienced?
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A
Well, I was very conscious that, having written some nonfiction books and been around Virginia politics for a while, that if I wrote a piece of fiction, people would go hunting for just what you just mentioned. Oh, that character is really inspired by this person or that. And I'm always amused when people come up to me who have read the story and. And say, oh, that's interesting. That person was thus. And so I very intentionally. There are plenty of books that sort of dress up as fiction, and they're thinly clad as fiction, and they're trying. And it's very obvious who. Who they're talking about, who's the target or who is the exemplar, hopefully. You know, I hate to disappoint the folks who go on that treasure hunt, but there really isn't an intended association between any real person in Virginia politics and the characters. Now, having said that, you know, you write about what you know, right? And so. And as I mentioned earlier, as I saw a situation develop or an event occur that seemed to me, with plenty of adaptation, to have some place in a story, I did that. So I wouldn't pretend that the book is not influenced by real world events, but as I've said in the. In the author's note in the book, if you want to find out about real Virginia politics, I can recommend a couple of books to you on that. But. But this one is fiction.
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B
All right, well, speaking of which, you've written major nonfiction historical accounts about Virginia, what was tougher to write? And if I might also ask, was it easier to make a point, an important point, through fiction than nonfiction?
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A
That's a great question, Kevin. And I wouldn't say one is harder or easier than the other, at least in my experience. I would say they're very different. I mean, writing history in a way that tells a good story, that's the common denominator, whether it's a fictional story or a historical one. You want it to be. Bring it to life for the reader and make it interesting. But when you're writing history, my. My books, as you know, are both about Post World War II Virginia politics, particularly this very competitive system we've had with a lot of Divided government, because I think it shows that divided government tends to work well. And Ken Framer's design can work very well still. So the history that I've written about
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is
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A
recent history, relatively recent history. And so I've been able to interview a lot of the key players for those books, as well as look at news articles and correspondence and other sources. But you're a reporter and an analyzer of events. When you're writing history, you're still telling that story, but you're reporting the facts, and you need to get the facts right. And. And with fiction, you. You are creating the story. In many ways that seems easier because you're not constrained by the facts. However, it's harder. I found it harder than I thought to invent an interesting story that conveyed the things that I wanted to convey. And there's no less attention to detail. There's a lot of research in writing fiction because of the authenticity really depends on getting a lot of your facts right about things that you are that are the backdrop to the story. I may have written one of the only novels in recent years that has reference notes in the back of it, but I did cite a lot of different sources, and I wanted to acknowledge them and also point readers to where they can find out more on some of these subjects. But I think it's a. I think they're just two very different undertakings. And. And I really can't say that one is harder or easier than the other.
- [35:36]
B
Well, there's clearly connection. You have many references to the famous Robert Ben Warren book All the King's Men. Your character, Danny Daniel, is in the first person. The protagonist speaking in the first person. Was all the King's Men an influence on how you approach this?
- [35:59]
A
Yeah. So the book was written in partnership with the University of Virginia center for Politics and my longtime teacher back in college and mentor ever since then, Larry Sabato. When I told him that I was going to write this novel, Larry Sabato at the University of Virginia said, well, first thing you need to do is to go reread the great American novel, All the King's Men. And it proved really crucial advice because I had a bit of a challenge getting started. I couldn't decide who I wanted to tell the story through. And for those who have read all the King's Men will know this. For those who haven't, I really recommend you go read that novel. It's just a timeless novel, but the narrator there, and it's written in the first person by an aide to the governor and Danny in my novel is very much in a similar. A similar position, though some interesting things happened to him and he finds himself actually in the public official role. And so once I've decided to use a first person narrator situated similar to. Similarly to what Robert Penn Warren did in all the King's Men with Jack Burden, who was the aide, who was the narrator there the thing really started to flow and then there. So I don't think this will spoil anything. One of the key players, not Danny, but the governor that he serves, becomes really enamored of the book and finds the book to be very helpful to him in sort of making a course correction in his career and his view of politics and the purpose of it. So he's forever invoking some of the. My favorite lines from the. From all the King's Men. So it's, it's. But I'm grateful to Larry for suggesting that, because I do think that, that having the first person narrator in the form of an aide, you know, we tend to think, when we talk about all these moral choices and different things, we tend to think of the public officials themselves. And yet there are many more people involved in politics who are not the person I'm front running many, many more. And many of the choices that they make can have as great, if not greater impact than the choices made by the person who's the candidate and the elected officials. So I thought it was kind of neat to have that Warren used an aide to tell the story and all the King's Men and, and adopted that convention here.
- [38:50]
B
Well, I'm not going to wrap up this interview without touching on that last point, which I think is very important for all those listening. But before we get to that, another influence. So the Reverend Tommy Nance, who gave the sermon series about the Book of Daniel, influenced you way back when, but you also have direct references to some sermons from the Reverend Cory Widmer from Richmond, Virginia. How did that. Did it just like hit you like a lightning bolt one day in church and you decided, I've got to have this in the book. What, what happened there?
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A
Well, Danny undergoes, in my novel, undergoes a really tough season, and he's trying to figure out how to deal with it. And Dr. Widmer, at Third Church, which we attend even before he became the senior pastor there, gave a. A sermon based on the Book of Habakkuk, which is not exactly on everybody's, you know, top of everybody's reading list, but it was about how you cope with seasons of suffering, seasons when it seems like evil may be in ruling the land. That was the case certainly in the setting of Habakkuk. Whether you call it evil or you just call it, you're out of power and you're really feeling like you're. You're going nowhere in your career. These politics will inevitably produce these seasons of suffering. And that's why perseverance is one of the main themes of in the Lion's Den. But Dr. Whitmer, Corey's sermon on that, which was sent to me by a friend, really had a powerful influence on me at the time. And so I wove it into this story with his permission. And it's just one of many wonderful sermons and reflections and podcasts that are available on the third RVA.org website. And I'm honored that he let me include it in this. In this book. I think you're going to. The other thing I wanted to be sure and acknowledge Kevin and you. You probably. I'm probably preempting a question on this, but Vice President Mike Pence wrote the foreword for the book, and I could not be more honored to have words that he shared about the book in the front of the book. I don't think there is anybody whose lived experience more dramatically demonstrates the importance of sticking to your principles and even when it hurts. And so I'm very grateful to him as well. I think the book hopefully draws both from the religious arena, biblical background, it draws from the constitutional background, and it draws from a lot of practical political lessons. But certainly we benefit from standout exemplars like Vice President Pence, who have been in the crucible and have done the right thing.
- [41:59]
B
All right. Well, yeah, you did jump ahead a little bit, and I'm not going to finish this conversation without talking about Vice President Pence either. But just before that, the subtitle of the book is Renewing Our Democracy by Renewing Ourselves. Well, that's pretty bold. What do you mean by renewing ourselves?
- [42:22]
A
Well, there's a lot of talk about the health of our democracy, what's wrong with our democracy, how to restore our democracy. It's a very good conversation to have at this 250th anniversary mark. And. And there are a lot of elements to it, Right. There's some structural elements there, procedural elements. There's whole sets of issues about our communications and our districting and our fundraising and all the elements. But I think that you're not going to really turn around if that's what we're talking about here, or reinvigorate as the way I prefer to frame it our democracy, unless you start with the individual choices that we can control, meaning our own. And so personal renewal is exactly what I've tried to talk about here in this discussion and in the book. It's about making the tough choices and preparing to make tough choices and then doing your best. You're inevitably going to err. We're humans in a fallen world. But doing your best to do the right thing, drawing the line ahead of time of where you will not go and navigating with principles through this environment. It's a great opportunity for service, but it's also a seductive arena in which you can get off the rails pretty easily.
- [43:56]
B
All right. Well, Frank, I mean, you acknowledge, and we talked about this at the beginning, that we're all fallen and the characters in your book all have some weaknesses, many of them much more pronounced than others. But are you suggesting through this and through the subtitle and some of these other references, that today, as We've celebrated the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and these extraordinary ideals that our founders set forth, that there are too many people in public life that lack appropriate moral courage?
- [44:33]
A
I'm not saying that today is unique in that regard. In fact, I don't believe so. I think we've had challenging times and stress tests before, and we're having. Having one now. We'll have one. You know, we'll continue to have one. I suspect what I am saying, so I don't. It's not intended as a critique of our moment specifically, though certainly there is plenty to criticize in our. In our moment. But I. I know. I don't think. At least I didn't set out to render a moral verdict on anybody. Just the opposite. I think that if you look at the origins of my story in a timeless text from, you know, many centuries before even the birth of Christ, you realize that these problems have been around for a long time, and they're going to be around for a long time because they're sort of endemic to the human condition. And the worst thing I think we can do is sort of vent our moral outrage. It's important to have standards and speak up when you think others are falling short of them. But again, we need to look into mirror first and make sure that our own conduct is the best that it can be. And recognizing how difficult some of these choices are will help you then decide, well, I want to prepare for those. I want to think about things I will do and things I won't do to get ahead. And I want to look to the examples of other people in history who made really tough choices. I mean the founders were risking their lives committing acts of treason. Of treason would have all been hung. So if I don't think any of us, we think it's really bad now. I don't think any of us, many of us are at risk of being hung for the positions we take in politics. We're fortunate to live in a free country that allows us to express and act on our views so long as we do so in accordance with the, with the rule of law. And yeah, you know, realizing that we, these are, these are problems that have been bedeviling human being since the fall. And rather than sort of rendering judgment on others, why not let's focus on preparing ourselves to make good choices?
- [47:10]
B
All right. Well, yes, but I want to challenge you a bit now, Frank, as we wrap this up. You know, you and I have spoken about the current state of politics. I think it's fair to say that both you and I are more Frank, frustrated and disappointed than we've been at most other many other periods of our life. Is there more of a moment where you think people of virtue and integrity need to step forward rather than be turned off by those that lack these values and principles who seem to get ahead?
- [47:49]
A
Yes, they do need to step forward. We need people. You know, politics and service and government is a noble pursuit. Young people thinking about that, listening to this podcast or thinking about getting involved and who may just sort of dismiss all that as noise and self serving people who are always arguing and not accomplishing anything and by the way running up a huge amount of debt to the they will have to pay. It's easy for a young person to be turned off by politics and what I would say to them and thank this response to your question is it is a noble pursuit. It is an arena where you can have a huge impact. But there are two points of caution. One is to is what I've just said which is make sure you're doing it for some cause greater than yourself. We really don't need more people who are in it for themselves. We need people who want to make things better and, and do the hard work of problem solving and governing but also draw the line in advance, have an understanding of what your the lines that you won't transgress and so that you're. And equip yourself for those hard choices. I think if I were a young person living today, and this is easy to say, but I think I'd be as interested in politics as I was before. And I really distresses me that some may be so turned off by the acrimony that they don't get involved. It's not whether to get involved, it's just how to get involved. And we need good people to get involved.
- [49:30]
B
All right, well, you know, as part of celebrating America's 250th. So my podcast guest recently, Dr. Jane Kaminski from Monticello and the filmmaker John Irwin, who did the great film Young Washington, David Rubenstein. They've all talked about how the founders probably would be shocked to know that we're still surviving as a great country, the United States, 250 years. I think Jane Kaminsky said Thomas Jefferson didn't expect it to last but about 15 years, which is crazy that they would put their lives and their sacred fortunes on the line for something that might not last. And here we're talking about whether to get involved in politics because we're turned off by some of the other people that are involved. But I do want to bring this to a close in this way. You mentioned Vice President Mike Pence writing the forward, and I agree with you. I've had him on this podcast for the same kind of reason, and he stood up at a critical time to do the right thing. But when I posted that podcast, if you look at the comments at YouTube, overwhelmingly, there are people who are saying, you traitor, you know, how dare you, Et cetera, et cetera. Should that discourage us or should that motivate us?
- [50:48]
A
Well, you know, it's. It's. It will probably discourage us, but how we respond to the discouragement is the question. I like the way Vice President Pence has responded to it. He's written a book about the future of conservatism. It's an excellent book, by the way. And whether you are of his political persuasion or a different one, you know, once you get past the heat of the moment, what really matters is sort of the contribution to the. To the contest of ideas and the servant leadership that you provide in a range of. Of roles. And if anybody was going to be discouraged by some of that negativity that you mentioned, it'd be Vice President Pence. And yet he's responded in a. In a wonderfully constructive way. And, you know, tempers will cool, and history always renders a judgment over time, and the heat of the moment subsides, and all of a sudden the clouds lift, and you can see with clarity, sort of when people made difficult stands, unpopular stands, stands that produced the kind of wrath that you're talking about. But who, who, who ultimately are win the favor of the judgment of history. And I think his actions will stand that test. And so again, I'm just particularly honored that he wrote the read the foreword to this book.
- [52:21]
B
All right, well, here's the wrap up question. So, as I noted at the outset, you and I got to know each other through volunteer Republican politics way back when. That all was incredibly important to the formation of my life. Met many phenomenal people, the experiences. I met my wife that way, and so many friendships decades and decades later go back to that time. You know, in many ways, that kind of politics is a young person's lifestyle. Long hours, you need a lot of energy. I mean, I remember many times I just didn't know how to get through the day on some of those things. So a lot of burnout and then you look back and say, was it worth it? My grades suffered. So much other stuff suffered as a result. But you felt like you were in it to do the right thing. So close us out. Frank, this is the Going Big podcast. I wanted you on here because in my judgment, in so many respects, you have gone big for your principles and you keep trying to think about ways to advance them, and now you're doing it through a non. Through a fiction book when you've been mostly writing history all your life. So for a young person in particular, but for anybody who is active in politics, how would you close us out to inspire them to continue to. I quite hate to say this, but take the heat that Daniel did and the Lions did.
- [53:51]
A
Well, I just think if folks will step back, they will see that this country has provided more opportunity for more people from more places and from all walks of life, and it's worth celebrating and preserving. There's an awful lot of negativity. You know, at least since the 1960s, sort of, there, there's been this project of sort of deconstructing the American story. And, and, and there are some things that needed to be added to the story to tell a complete story. But at the end of the day, the question is, how can we make it better? The founders, as we've been often reminded during the 250th, you know, were, didn't say they formed a perfect union. They, they gave us the project of making it better. And it's become better, more inclusive, more productive and really aegis for good in the modern world and for freedom. And so, you know, I think the main thing I'd say is step back and take a Look at it. Look why people all over the world want to come to the United States. Look at the opportunities you've had. Give a little grace to others and express a little gratitude and then get to work doing something in your community. If you don't want to think politics in Washington is out of control, that's fine. All of us live in local communities. We have opportunity to work to make things better in our neighborhoods, in our communities. And you know what? At that level, people don't tend to ask whether you're an R or a D or something else. They just tend to sort of roll up their sleeves and work. So I'm optimistic about young people getting involved in their communities, and that includes politics. And in fact, I think this current generation exhibits more interest in making things better for other people than perhaps we've seen in prior generations. So I'm optimistic about it.
- [56:08]
B
Well, Frank Atkinson, what a pleasure to have you on the Going Big Podcast today. You are a longtime, valued friend and invaluable mentor to me, and I know you're already getting to writing your next book, so we'll look forward to having you back when that's ready, too. Thanks for all that you do, Kevin.
- [56:23]
A
It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- [56:26]
B
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website, goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.