← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
The Mistakes That Made George Washington with Jon Erwin (Young Washington)
01:04:45
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- [00:00]
John Irwin
I think the best way to predict the future is to roll up your sleeves and help create it. I also think that it's a whole lot easier to criticize than it is to create. And it's one of the reasons why I love the story of Washington and the founding fathers. They didn't just sit back and complain about taxation without representation. They began to imagine a new world. And they bet everything on that new world. And they created it together, and we live in it today. I just love the idea of if I deeply believe in something, I would much rather just join with a bunch of fearless artists that can help figure out what it is and what it's going to become. Then just criticize it before you try it.
- [00:35]
Kevin Gentry
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big ideas. Each week, I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers
- [00:53]
John Irwin
and in their communities.
- [00:55]
Kevin Gentry
Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to life. Now, if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube, or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big.
- [01:19]
Welcome back to another episode of the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Gentry, and and I'm so pleased to have as my guest today John Irwin, one of the most innovative and influential filmmakers in entertainment today. John is the filmmaker behind I Can Only Imagine, Jesus Revolution, American Underdog, the House of David series, and now Young Washington, which endeavors to tell the story of the formative years of our founding father before he becomes the George Washington we know from history. And as we're about to celebrate America's 250th anniversary, we get to ask this big question in Young Washington. And that is, how could such an ordinary young man become such an extraordinary leader? And to help us answer that, I'm so pleased to have John Irwin with us and dancers much more as well. John, Sean, it's great to have you on the Going Big podcast.
- [02:17]
John Irwin
Thanks for. That's quite the introduction. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And it's a real. It's the honor of a lifetime to tell stories that entertain people, but in entertaining to be able to tell meaningful stories, you know, I feel like the right story can change your life if you'll let it. And so it's a wonderful job and I'm very grateful to the audience to allow me to tell these stories over and over again. It really is a, it's a. I feel like I've won the lottery in terms of just the ability to tell stories that are first incredibly meaningful to me and I hope to the audience as well.
- [02:50]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I gotta tell you, that actually is the number one reason I've been so intrigued to have you on the Going Big podcast, and that is your belief in storytelling. So that's one of the things I wanna get into. But to kick us off to someone listening, why should they go watch Young Washington in a movie theater as opposed to just waiting until it's available in some streaming service?
- [03:13]
John Irwin
Well, first of all, it's a great question. I love going to see movies in the theater. I'm going to see Spielberg's movie tonight with my family. And there's just nothing like it. There's truly nothing like it. And I love making a show like House of David that people watch at home. But there's something about being in a movie theater together and, and we made Young Washington thinking about the big screen in every detail of the movie. It's definitely in my body of work, the most ambitious, biggest kind of action packed movie I've done. And so we made it for the big screen. But also there's a wonderful thing that's created when any audience comes together at a theater and celebrates something together, whether that's fans of a horror film or a comic book movie or whatever, it triggers this amazing, amazing thing when they, when a fan base unifies their voice. And it's called fomo and it stands for Fear of Missing Out. And what happens is when an audience rallies behind a movie, you see it with movies like backrooms or Obsession, you know, all of a sudden, you know, a bunch of frequent moviegoers would chime apart, say, wait, what is this? What just happened? So it's a wonderful way to champion a common idea or common ideal together as a community of people. And so I would say, coming up on the 250th anniversary of America, we made Young Washington as a love letter to our country and its first founder. And America, imperfect as it is, is so worth celebrating and remembering why we're here. And that's why we made the movie. And so I've often said in my course, my film career, your movie ticket is your vote. And that is so true. And I think it's truer now more than ever. And so I would ask, first of all, I hope that I've made a movie that you will be thoroughly entertained by, that you will love with your family. But just know that if you go to it on opening weekend, it's kind of your way of joining your voice to a bunch of other voices that say we love and care about this country and we think it's still worth believing in and worth celebrating together. And we're going to do that by going to see a movie. I find it very interesting that it's the only movie nationwide in theaters on the 250th anniversary of America that celebrates America in any way or American history in any way. I thought there would be at least two war films or something, but Young Washington is truly on this anniversary of which is singular in our lifetimes, the only movie that really celebrates the American story. And so that's why I would ask that you go see it. Having said that, I hope you go see it just because you enjoy it. We work very hard on the movie. I love it. It's my favorite film that I've been involved in and I made it for my whole family. I think when I think about a movie, I think about something. I can bring all my kids to. My, My oldest is 17 and our youngest is 9. And then I can also bring my parents too. You know, I love those kind of multi generation experiences and that's really what we've tried to do here. And I also think that what I love about people that have seen the movie early is there's been a lot of people that come up to me and say I didn't sleep. I stayed up on Google all night because I was like, was this true? Did this really happen? Did this really happen? Because some of the things in his young life and his kind of coming of age hero's journey origin story are so extraordinary. You think they have to be fake, this can't be real. But they are. And most people don't know about his early life at all. And so they don't really think about his formative years and this kind of rite of passage adventure on the, on the American frontier. And so I hope that it kind of sparks that kind of curiosity and imagination. As people watch the movie, they start their journey of learning about the American Revolution and the American story and those that founded our country.
- [07:14]
Kevin Gentry
My wife and I went a couple weeks ago to see an early screening. It wasn't a final thing. We got invited to it. I really loved it, but I was like, there's no way this is exaggerated. There's no way. And I went back and read the story. I'm like, wait a minute, all these things are really true. I started digging deeper. I mean, so I'm interested to know why you decided to take on the man who's first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. And what you learned in this, that really surprised you.
- [07:48]
John Irwin
Yeah. So that's a great question. I hope an audience knows if they see a film that I'm involved in, it is first a story that has just deeply moved me in some way. I made a commitment a few years back. You know, no one really prepares you for success in any endeavor. And so. And there's a fog to it and there's always problems on the other side of it. And so kind of navigating that, I finally just came to like, I don't want to chase the results of things. I just want to tell the stories that move me the most. And I'm just going to keep it simple. And if a story is entertaining to me and life changing to me and. And meaningful to me, I'm just going to trust that it will be to other people as well. And so that's been the last three things I've done, which is Jesus Revolution, this magazine that I found on eBay that's 50 years old and kept in my laptop bag for like seven years. And then House of David has been the thing that I've wanted to do since I was 16 years old and my dad bought me a camera with money he didn't have. We went to Israel together and I went to David's Tomb and was just. My curiosity was sparked. Washington is very similar in that I have these moments in my life that are not related to, like, oh, I got to find a movie or I got to find a TV show, but moments where my curiosity with a subject matter is just sparked and I get thoroughly intrigued and I get almost uncontrollably curious. For me, that happened over a decade ago. We were in New York working, and we wanted to go see Hamilton. And of course all the tickets were. So you could not go see it. All the tickets were sold out or, you know, you had to be a celebrity, which I'm not. And. And so we couldn't go see it. So we went next door actually to see Les Mis. And it was very serendipitous. We saw this kid, John Michael, who was the understudy of Valjean, but taking the midweek performances and we cast him as the lead. And I can only imagine. And we met him right there. And so it was very serendipitous. But there was something about being told I couldn't get into something which was Hamilton and that injustice. Because I'm from the south, we don't like being told no. And. And that I was like, I'll rage against this by reading 30 books. And so I started with Chernow's Hamilton and Chernau's Washington. And I got hooked on the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers. Not because I was like, oh, this is my next movie or next TV show. I just loved. I was involved in doing other things at the time. I just loved the stories. And I was fascinated and mesmerized by the stories. And the idea of like the largest amphibious fleet in the history of the world with all these Hessian mercenaries was sent to crush our rebellion. Like the statistical odds of America working the America of like, low single digits, you know, And. And I found that it was this collision of faith and thought and purpose and reason and between the Great Awakening and kind of the Rights of man, the Age of Reason.
- [10:48]
Kevin Gentry
And.
- [10:49]
John Irwin
And there were these extraordinary characters that. That founded our nation. Complex, imperfect characters, as we all are, but extraordinary characters. And so I fell in love with the story of. Of America forming. And in that pursuit, above all, Washington stood out to me that the idea is mind blowing that before there's an American, you know, anthem or creed or flag, there's this one person that's galvanizing the idea of the country itself. And if that person doesn't do their job, then the nation doesn't exist. And so I just found it very interesting of who is. Who is the man underneath the myth and who is the person underneath this kind of person that we only think about is on the dollar bill or carved into Mount Rushmore. And then the more I thought about that, the more I love the exploration of where do characters like that come from? Like, where does someone with that kind of grit and endurance come from? And what I find so interesting, and I feel it's one of the great themes of the movie, and I feel very applicable in my own life, is that great heroes of, you know, mythic characters are often forged much more in pain than. And failure and disappointment than they are in ease and success. I've got this ring on. It says Michael, who plays David in House of David, gave it to me. And it says, seek discomfort. And I found that the big moments that for me are actually much more my failures than successes. And I found whether it's like Churchill or Washington, you know, there's there's often like a defining challenge and struggle and rite of passage and failure that shapes them in a pretty profound way. And actually failure becomes the great teacher. And their hero's journey becomes how they endure beyond how they end up trying things that no one else will try and how they often fail at them and then how they get back up on their feet and keep learning. And so what I discovered is this early chapter in Washington's life for me was really the portrait of everything that he would become. Like you see all of the character that he would need to be the first president being forged in the life of this kid who learned sometimes through painful lessons what real leadership was that real leadership is not about selfish ambition, which is kind of where you meet the character, but it's about serving a cause higher than yourself and serving others. Leadership is an act of service. And when he gets that, he becomes the hero that he was born to be. And that happened in his early 20s in this story that was very much like Pride and Prejudice meets the Revenant. I mean, there was this side of it in Virginia and then there was this untamed American frontier. And I found that nobody really knew that story. And the process of telling a story is revelatory to me. I like what Ken Burns calls emotional archaeology. So you're really trying to, what Aaron Sorkin, the great writer, says, you're not trying to take a photograph, you're trying to paint a portrait. And so you're really trying to be a student of the character. And really coming out of that exercise, it was just another thing that made me love and appreciate Washington, love and appreciate my own failures and struggles in life and what they've forged in me and love and appreciate the country that we're all co authors and co owners of, you know, and, and that's kind of where it came from. So the good news is while I was working on all these other things, this process, this project was allowed to kind of nurture itself in my imagination over the course of many years and many books read and I hope you feel that when you watch the film.
- [14:41]
Kevin Gentry
Well, love this. And yeah, I think all that comes through. I. You're, you're hitting on so many things and I've got so many follow up questions and not enough time to ask them. So the great historian Gordon Wood died tragically about a couple weeks ago and he was the one who really changed America's understanding about the revolution, that it wasn't this taxation without representation as tyranny. It was much more it was much more of fighting the class lines of Europe. The individual, you're talking about this grit that seems to really come through with Washington. But elaborate a little bit more. What do you think his early failures taught him that success couldn't have.
- [15:26]
John Irwin
Well, that's a great question, and it's a great question for all of us. I think with Washington, this simple idea, you know, that we hold these truths to be self evident, which is what Franklin added. It was originally sacred and undeniable. But self evident, like a part of the laws of nature, that all men are created equal and endowed with certain rights. The idea that every individual should be able to have their shot, that there should be basically a meritocracy and there should be some place on earth that if I can just get there and work hard enough, I can do anything I can dream of. Okay, that is the American idea. And I think a lot of people when they ask, is America the greatest nation on the face of the earth? Well, the answer to that question is subjective. It's based off what you value, you know. And so I actually would much more say America is the greatest idea in the history of nations. And I feel like the idea of America is much more about the individual than it is about the collective. Both matters, but in prioritization in America, the individual is prioritized over the collective in the sense of every individual gets their shot here. So when you trace that idea back, you get back to the early life of Washington and you understand that that was a radical concept. So in England, the idea of, like,
- [16:52]
Kevin Gentry
all men are created.
- [16:53]
John Irwin
No, they're not. You know, you are your birth, you know, you are your class. And that's the way the world is and the way the world works. And that is. That is what America primarily rebelled against. So it was not about simply kind of the more surface things of taxation without representation. It was about an utter clash of point of view of an ideas. And so I think you see in the movie early on, this character who is constantly confronted with his utter lack of fairness. He can't become an officer even if he gets a, you know, if he becomes a major or a colonel. I didn't know this going into the study of Washington. That's not a royal commission. So it doesn't really even matter if anyone with any rank that has a royal commission would outrank a general in a. In the. In a colonial sense. And there was this extreme lack of fairness that I think he saw. And the idea that you couldn't climb to your ambition beyond the class that you were in and your bloodline was an idea that we raged against as Americans and wanted to create a place to set it free. And so what happened with Washington is he was someone who, to his credit, signed up for things he had no idea how to do over and over again. So this young kid says, yes, I'll lead 150 men. I mean, in his early 20s, you know, and I will go tell the French to get lost. Basically, he had no idea how to do that. And I think in signing up for things he didn't know how to do, he made some really big mistakes. And I think in my study of the character, the thing that changed in him was a strong sense on the other side of those mistakes. I think prior to those mistakes, he was very. First of all, he had this massive personality. I've always felt like Washington's personality was like a volcano. And his kind of, you know, his quest of self mastery and stoicism was almost like a lid on that volcano. But there was a lot underneath that he was trying to control. And so I think, you know, he failed, you know, really profoundly when he put in what. Not to give anything away. But in the words of the movie, I put. He says, I put my ambition before my men. And so he was very ambitious. He wanted to just, like many of the great stories, make a name for himself. But in that. But in that quest, he made some pretty profound mistakes, and he got a lot of his friends killed. And there was a shot that he was responsible for that. It's that it ignited a global conflict. So statistically, it's like, you can't really blow it as much as Washington did early in his life. And I think so many of us of, like, we don't want to try things because we're afraid of failure. And we assign such catastrophic consequence to failure. There are very few ways to fail that truly kill you. You know, there are, but most of the time, failure you can recover from. But the greatest failure is not to try. And so Washington failed pretty profoundly. And the way he humbled himself was self, aware, assimilated, kind of, and. And actually allowed that failure to. To not define him, but instead allowed that failure to shape him into. Into the person that he wanted to become. And that's what we depict in the third act of the movie. And I think what he realized and the real change in him was that to lead was not about to advance into these places that you couldn't get, but to lead, like, it wasn't about getting into the parties that you Weren't allowed into or whatever. But actually, to lead was to embody and serve an idea that was bigger than you are and to serve those that you're entrusted with. And when he understood that idea of servant leadership and leadership as a means of embodying and physically embodying an idea, that's when you see him in the movie gain his superpower. Because Washington was not the first great general in America. In fact, you could argue that maybe he had a lot of flaws as a general, but he was undeniably the first great leader, galvanizing leader in America. And you see that the power of his leadership and his embodiment of a cause, and I think that was found early in his life. So I think that ultimately, I don't think success or ease would have ever taught him those lessons. I think what people don't understand about the Revolutionary War is you have, again, the largest amphibious fleet ever assembled with a bunch of professionals, like hired Hessian mercenaries, and they're coming to crush this rebellion quickly. And that unstoppable force met this immovable object in Washington, and it's a war of attrition or a war of posts. And what that means is you're just trying to outlast the invading force over a great deal. So the idea of a war of attrition is you have a higher pain tolerance than the people that have left their homes to come fight you, and eventually they'll leave. That was the Revolutionary War. And so Washington had to have this incredible galvanizing power and a level of uncommon grit and perseverance to win that war. It was not about one battle. It was an endurance. It was about enduring horrific circumstances over a long period of time. And so you ask, where in the world would that kind of resilience, uncommon resilience, come from? And you get to his early life, and if that person is born and raised in ease and comfort and has not failed profoundly, they don't win that war. And so you see that
- [22:49]
Kevin Gentry
the hard
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John Irwin
things in life we go through are so valuable. And I think that that conversation is not had nearly as much as we should, because those are the things that shape Washington. Success is where you cash in. Failure is where you learn.
- [23:02]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I'm so glad you're telling this story, and I think you nail it. And it really is the ultimate American dream story that an ordinary person can do. Extraordinary things and his leadership just extraordinary. Okay, I want to come back to that in a moment, but first, I want to go to you. You grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, you already hinted to this. You got interested early on in stories and storytelling and film and you were doing stuff in your church, you and your brother, you were a cameraman for University of Alabama football games when you were 15. Yes. When did your interest in this and your judgment become something more and did it become a calling?
- [23:52]
John Irwin
Yeah, that's a great question. Because my career in entertainment started. I was very lucky. And it started very early. It started like when I was 12 working at a cable station, but then I interned for a cameraman for espn and born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. So lived about an hour from Tuscaloosa from University of Alabama. And so somebody got sick on University of Alabama football game. And at the time I think it was called espn. And so it was like Alabama, Louisiana Tech. And on those games there were only like six cameras. It was like the minimum to put a game on television. And. And so when one camera goes down, it's a big deal. Like, like it's a big deal. And so my mentor, who was one of the other cameramen called me and he said, look, somebody just got sick. I told him I knew a guy, they're desperate, like, get in your car right now and get over here and you can run camera for espn. So my dad drove me because I didn't want anybody to know I couldn't drive and drop me off about four blocks from the stadium. And you know, I tried to use deep tones and be like, I'm a professional, you know, that type thing. And I ran this camera as the high end zone camera. So it sits very high and shoots up and down the field. When you see a field goal, that's the camera. I had never seen a camera that big. The lens is like a telescope. So I was this 15 year old kid zooming in and out of the moon. You could zoom into a corner of the moon. And I'm like, this is the. I've never seen anything like this. My family had no money. They paid me $300. I had the time of my life. And they called me about a week later because there's a lot of games in the surrounding region in the sec. And so there was a game in Auburn. And so they said, are you a freelance camera operator from Birmingham? And I said, I honestly didn't know if that was three jobs or one job. So I was like, why yes, that's what I do for a living. I am that. And went and did a game in Auburn. And so for years that was my. And my brother joined quickly after our kind of Bread and Butter was to work for ESPN on the weekends. Went all over the world doing it. It was great. When I was 16 my dad as I mentioned, bought me a camera with money he didn't have, helped me get a loan for $10,000 and that became our first production company. And he said something very powerful and he's our biggest fan to this day. He said dream bold, dream big, dream the impossible, just go for it. And so I do attribute my willingness to jump in on things I don't know how to do to my dad and you know, the dreamer that he is and just started doing all kinds of stuff. Like to anyone listening, like don't discount what Malcolm Gladwell would call in a book called outliers the 10,000 hour rule of like there are no overnight successes. There's just repetitions. There's getting better at whatever it is that you do. And for me and for my brother, I mean I did more weddings than I want to remember. We did local car commercials, we did stuff for our children, church. I videotaped 150 orthopedic trauma surgeries. I mean all kinds of stuff. And then we finally, the music artist Michael W. Smith, quickly followed by Amy Grant, God bless them, gave Andy and I the chance to direct music videos. And this was after Napster had decimated music. So we didn't know that there were ever half a million dollar music videos. We're just like man, someone's going to pay us 20 grand to do a music video. Like the director gets 10%, so that's two grand. We'll split it. You get a thousand dollars. This is amazing, this is so much money and we'll do all of them. And so we did so many music videos and that was just a great proving ground for kind of a visual style. But then the career to calling moment and we did great. We won video of the year three years in a row and we had great fun and it was a great way to develop a skill. But then I went and worked on a faith based movie called Courageous. There's a real Cinderella story. There's a church in Georgia making these movies at Sony. Kind of after the Passion of the Christ had happened, these were kind of the next hits and they were making them for like $2 million and they were doing $30 million. One of them was called Fireproof. This one was called Courageous. Well this one was, was a, a police drama. And so this church in Georgia, primarily with church volunteers now wants to do action sequences involving cars and this. You never want to Combine these things, somebody's going to die. And so I was brought in as a professional to direct second unit, which means to do all the stunt work, which I love, chasing things around and blowing things up with a camera. And they also wanted to film on a camera that I was an expert in called the red one. And so we brought the cameras in. And so it was working on that film. The director of that film, Southern Baptist, as he is, wonderful friend named Alex Kendrick, he doesn't even say hello, he just goes straight for the jugular. And he just said, we have a question about you. And I'm like, okay, I'm here to do your stunt work, you know, and they're like, we've looked at all your work and. But what's the purpose? Like, what's your purpose and what's the purpose of your work? And I'm like, you know, when a question just hits you between the eyes and like, you don't, you can't answer it, but also you can't stop thinking about it. It just kind of stops you in your tracks. And I was like, first of all, like, I don't. To make a living. I lied about my age to work for espn.
- [28:59]
Kevin Gentry
I don't know.
- [29:00]
John Irwin
And at the time it was almost like, I'm like the Han Solo of Christianity. If you have money, I've got a ship, I'll fly you somewhere. The rest is your problem, you know. But it really stuck with me. So over the course of that movie, I really decided that was my jumping off the ledge moment of a scary transition from instead of just being a service provider or getting paid for a gig, to actually, you know, raise money for independent films and, and really own the idea. And it was definitely a career to calling moment. And I would say, don't think a calling has to exist early. If you find something that you just love doing, take a season of your life to just, you know, I talk about having a grind that gets you to your ultimate goal. Just, just have a season of your life to just try to get better and better at what you do at your craft, and then live enough of life to then have life tell you what to do with your craft, you know, if that makes sense. And that was the moment and just jumped in again to something we had no idea how to do was to start raising money for movies, which we did. And one right after the other learned a lot from failure. A lot of post mortems. The films did well and they each grew, but it was always the ones that one in particular Called Woodlawn. That didn't quite do what we thought. It really instigated a post mortem and a season of learning again from failure. Love that movie. But that led to the business plan for this movie, I can only imagine, which we raised the money for to both make and market it. Built it to break even at $15 million in box office. It did $86 million in box office and was the number one independent film of the year. And that's what got us in business, kind of got us to Hollywood and got us in business with Lionsgate and all the other things that we've done since, which I'm very grateful for the audience. But it was really a moment, you know, on that movie. Courageous. That was like, okay, it's an interesting question that everyone should ask and answer like, what is the purpose of my work? Like, what am I trying to do through what I do? And again, you don't have to answer it when you're a kid learning. I think the better question there is just, do I love this? Do I love what I'm doing and am I getting better at it every day? Because success is a byproduct of incremental improvement. I think. Think. But ultimately, at some point in your development, asking the big question of like, okay, not what do I do? But like, Simon Sinek wrote a great book called Start with why You're a
- [31:29]
Kevin Gentry
big Simon Sinek fan.
- [31:31]
John Irwin
Yeah, yeah, I do. I like that book. That's Simon Sinek, right? Simon Sinekron. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And glad. Yeah. But the idea of great people kind of emanate from why they do what they do, not what they do. But I think that has to. That's a process of kind of your own personal evolution. But it is a question worth asking and thinking about and answering of, like, not what do I do, but why do I do what I do? So that's in 2010. That's when that I asked that question. And then I've been trying to figure out the answer ever since.
- [32:03]
Kevin Gentry
Wow. See, that's why you're perfect for the Going Big podcast. I thought about this even before I knew about Young Washington. But. All right, what about your focus on underdogs? I mean, you're a great storyteller, but you love to tell, obviously, the story of underdogs. I mean, David and Goliath, that's the ultimate. But is there something in your life? What's going on with that?
- [32:25]
John Irwin
Well, look, I was forced probably. Again, if you think about the path to being a director in Hollywood, or whatever you want to call it. I started as far from that path as one could ever be. I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. I had to do kindergarten twice because I was an ADHD disturbance to the class. Like, it was everyone else's grades were the problem, not mine. I was that much of a troublemaker, But I'm like, who has to do kindergarten? What do you have to not do in kindergarten to not pass that grade? But I did it, and my parents had no money, you know, and so college was not in the cards for me. And so, you know, I love the idea of. Of just the idea of the American Dream, of, like, if you work hard enough, you can do anything. And so, you know, I aspire to be one of those people, at least in my line of work, that, you know, you're just not going to outwork me, and I'm just going to keep learning. And so I resonate with those stories. And so any story that's like someone that. That I just love Heroes Journeys, and I love unlikely stories and stories of underdogs because I love to remind myself that it's possible. And then also to remind the audience that it's possible. Like, if Kurt Warner can be bagging groceries at a high V in, you know, you know, and five years later be the MVP of the super bowl, it's possible, you know, and, you know, David and Goliath, those are three words synonymous with the idea of the underdog. And I just love those stories. I love the stories of, like, the stories that when everyone else writes somebody off and discounts a story. And I think my ultimate hope beyond just loving those stories is that people will watch them and say, okay, maybe my dream's possible, you know, even when everyone says it's not, like, that's a cool outcome if someone can go see one of my movies or TV shows and be like, okay, I'm going to give it a shot. Like, because if you have a dream that's big, everyone will laugh at you for a season of time. You know, I think I make films that, you know, television shows at Amazon, and one of their leadership principles that I really like is you got to be willing to be misunderstood for long periods of time if you're going to innovate and have a dream. And so if you. If you want to chase an unreasonable dream, it will be unreasonable to a lot of people in your life for a long period of time. So I love telling those stories that sometimes if you just don't quit, dreams do come true. I think it happened to me, and it happened in the lives of the stories that I love to tell. So I just love. I love the reminder of what's possible through the form of storytelling, because life can get really hard and tough and confusing, and you want to give up. And. And I love stories that tell us. No, don't give up. If you just keep going. I think there's very few failures in life. I think there's a lot of people that just quit too early, you know, and who knows if you've. You've actually put in 80% of the work, you know, and success was right around the corner, but you just gave up. I love telling stories to people that say, you know what? Just keep going. If you really believe in what you're doing, just keep going and don't quit, you know, and you'll find success in uncommon hours, you know, if you just. If you just keep getting better at what you do and you don't give up.
- [35:49]
Kevin Gentry
So you're telling stories. But do you have an objective in terms of encouraging your audience to think about introspectively, like, you can do it. Come on, find your gift. Go do it.
- [36:01]
John Irwin
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, you know, it's like Aristotle would say in Poetics. I believe that there's three forms of portrayals of a character. You can portray a character as lesser than they are, as in Greek comedy. You can portray a character as they are. Or you can portray characters as higher than they are, as in great Greek tragedy. Think about, like, the Odyssey. And so I like that form of storytelling. Story as a means of processing and giving meaning to life, but pulling us up to what's possible. If I go see Top Gun, Maverick, that is a portrayal of characters as higher than they are, and it pulls you up to it, you know, And I just like that form of storytelling. Not to discount. Like, I'll give you an example. I think the final episode of Breaking Bad might be one of. That might be the most perfect hour of television ever architected. Vince Gilligan is just the great master of television, but I had at some point stop watching that show because I was just a worse version of myself, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was becoming Walter White. And it's so, so good, but it rubs off on you in a way that brings you, you know, and nothing to discount the show. It's one of the greatest shows ever made. And again, it's probably one of the most. You want to talk about the. The perfect sticking a landing. It's that show. But for My own self, I had. I was becoming meaner, you know what I'm saying? And so I think, I think that as opposed to something like Top Gun, Maverick, where I feel reinspired to engage a difficult world with this new punk rock characteristic, which is optimism and belief. And I love stories that pull you up and that are architected in such a way that they're meant to uplift and inspire. And what we say at wonder is stories that are architected to restore faith and things worth believing in, even if they're not perfect. And so I would say America, in the case of Young Washington, imperfect as it is, it's an idea and concept that is worth believing in and worth celebrating together. And I like telling stories that are architected with that kind of optimism and that kind of belief. And I like stories that inspire the audience on their own journey. I mean, I've always felt that mass entertainment is, first of all, it's for the masses. You know, what we do, the movie theater, it's the everyman's escape. It's cheaper than pretty much every other form of entertainment. And in terms of location based entertainment is it concerts, sporting events, and people go to it because life out in the real world doesn't make sense most of the time. And it's hard and it makes you. Life is relentless. And the baseline of life is struggle. That's the baseline. So there's moments of like, happiness and whatever, but the baseline is hard. And for all of us. I like that quote, be kind because everyone around you is fighting a hard battle and that's life. And so for my taste, if I'm going to go into a theater and pay money for two hours to get my family together, I don't want to be reminded about how hard the life was that I just escaped to get into the theater for that two hours. I want to be reminded that the journey can be worth it, that dreams can come true, that people's stories do matter, and that the world, what we say in Washington, the world and its ways can change. And that to me is the highest form of entertainment. It's a vehicle or the highest form of storytelling. Storytelling as a service, as a function in society, no matter what form, whether it's around a campfire, on a stage, or with a pen or on film, it's a means of reminding people. It's a means of bringing order to the chaos and reminding people what matters. And it's a way to process the meaning of life. And so to me, I like those kind of stories that are truly architected and on their sleeves of like, we are making stories that hopefully will make you believe in things again and things that we think matter. And that's the point of the brand. And now that's not to say I love going to see back rooms with my two oldest and the idea this YouTuber made this incredible. Like, it was incredible. But so I'm not discounting. I'm a huge fan of Game of Thrones, I'm not discounting. But there's, there's room for optimism and hope, I think, and it's sorely needed on screens large and small.
- [40:46]
Kevin Gentry
Well, couldn't agree more, and thank you for doing that. All right, well. Well, I want to begin to wrap this up, take it back to the celebration of America's 250th. But first, in the introduction, I said you were one of the most innovative and influential storytellers in entertainment today. Tell us about hybrid filmmaking and answer this question, if you would. In the process, do storytellers need to push themselves to keep perhaps even reinventing themselves in the process in order to really be cutting edge toward their objectives?
- [41:19]
John Irwin
Yeah, I think the whole history of cinema, this 125 year old kind of medium, is artists taking tools that are rooted in technology and using them in ways no one expected. I was just in New York at Tribeca showing Washington, and it's on 27.
- [41:35]
Kevin Gentry
How was it received there, by the way?
- [41:37]
John Irwin
It was great. I mean, I just surprised you did any surprise. It did surprise. I shouldn't say on a podcast that it's. No, of course it didn't surprise me. It did. It totally. I, you know, I, I was prepared for a different reaction in, at Tribeca than I would get in Dallas, Texas. What I love about the movie is it's playing the same everywhere. And, you know, an interesting thing that happened when we took it to Tribeca is it coincided with the U. I'm not. Look, I stopped working for ESPN when I was 23. I had seen enough sports for like 10 lifetimes. So I'm not as current in, you know, in, in, in the sporting arena. But, you know, the U.S. soccer team won and there were people all over Times Square just chanting usa hugging each other, wearing red, white and blue. And I got emotional watching this and, and sports can do that sometimes. But this had nothing to do with the political party. It was just one of the most unifying sounds that I've heard in a while, just people chanting USA and laughing and, you know, it was so cool to see it there. And I What was interesting about Washington is that Washington played exactly the same energy and kind of buoyance, I guess at Tribeca as it did, you know, in Dallas, Texas, or we showed it at the Reagan Library, we're showing at the JFK library. And so it's so interesting that it really does play as this, hopefully. What I think people see when they see the movie is it is an invitation to celebrate something that we hold in common. It is an invitation to celebrate our first founder and to celebrate the American idea of which we are all co authors and co owners of. That's the heartbeat of the film. And that heartbeat seems to be catching no matter where we show the movie as it relates to technology. On 27th and Broadway in New York is the first, what they call it, a kinetoscope parlor. And I've also been to Edison's lab in New Jersey where he invented his facility, invented the kinetograph, which is the first camera in our industry. That's where 35 millimeter, 3 per 24 frame film was invented. And I've been there and it's the first movie studio there. It's this thing called the Black Mariah. It's like a turntable house. And then on 27th and Broadway, they had the first parlor where you watch these one person at a time, watch these one minute films. And I don't think Edison had any idea that people would ever do anything over one minute. When the Lumiere brothers projected it onto a screen, he was irate and started suing everybody because he's like, you're tearing down the. No, it's one person at a time. They pay five cents. You know, I love the musical sound Singing in the Rain. I think one of the great musicals ever made because it's about talkies and sound disrupting. It feels like the exact same moment that we're in now. And because all of a sudden talking pictures are like, is this a fad? Is this. You know, this is going to tear down the business. So I think the history of our business has been new tools given to artists and used in really ways that no one expected. And so now we have these new tools that people put in the category of it's just basically just. It's compounded compute. It's enough computational power that allow for a bunch of new things. So GIA tools, Generative artificial intelligence. And what House of David became was the first show to really integrate these tools into a production pipeline. So not treat them as a foreign way to create altogether, but just to deeply understand them and Connect them to all the ways that we make film and television. And I love bleeding on the bleeding edge and innovating. Someone's going to have to learn to use these tools. These tools are here to stay. I am honored to be one of those first people. And the reason is that I was told my idea was impossible the way many filmmakers are told. Like, I remember getting patted on the head with House of David and someone basically saying, just go. Go think of a smaller idea, John. Which. And that was a very smart person. But I did not get in this business to think of small ideas. And so we started thinking about this thing that we often say. We do not compromise. We innovate. And so how could we innovate to make the show possible and to put Game of Thrones on the screen at a budget far less than Game of Thrones. And that was the exploration of House of David. I was a former 3D animator, and I love technology. Started with a camera.
- [46:00]
Kevin Gentry
So
- [46:02]
John Irwin
I was very amenable to being the first use case of the technology, certainly to Amazon. What we found out to the industry. And what I found was that my imagination instantly became possible and that I could put way more on the screen. And by challenging the status quo. The status quo saying, the show is impossible. The show employs 600 people. So by challenging the limitation, we created a ton of jobs. And I had never felt more creative or collaborative. And then we made Young Washington. Young Washington is made completely on location, out in the elements. We wanted the audience to know that we were cold and wet and in the mud. But there were some sequences.
- [46:40]
Kevin Gentry
You definitely feel that.
- [46:41]
John Irwin
Yeah, there was an icy river sequence where there was really no way to do it safely. And so we used the technology as the visual effects pipeline, and we used it on that sequence. And even though Washington is 99% in camera and 100% on location, and then we came back and we just found out that we were the only ones doing it and could really lead the industry in that way. And a lot of other filmmakers had that had similar questions. And I think, again, you have to be completely fearless when you innovate. And so we were very vocal and open about our use of these tools. And the highlight is that I think these tools are both overhyped and underhyped. What hybrid production means is that it's basically like the method of creating Avatar meets the method of creating a show like Mandalorian. So it's performance capture meets virtual production with a bunch of technology that makes it real time. But what it means is that there's just no limit to the filmmaker's imagination. And again, fairness and democratization of technology means a lot to me. My career was based off the democratization of the digital camera. So if that, if that revolution doesn't happen, my career doesn't happen. So the idea of obliterating kind of the, the limitation of like the only way stories are told is if you have access to the tools. I love the idea that filmmakers all over the world are going to have their shot because scope and scale is going to be widely democratized and it really will then just be about the storyteller's imagination, how good the story you're telling is and how meaningful it is to people. I love creating that moment of fairness and this is a new set of tools. And I have a contrarian opinion about contrarian to some. I have a lot of contrarian opinions, but one is that you have a
- [48:26]
Kevin Gentry
lot of contrarian opinions. Yeah, I do. Good for you.
- [48:28]
John Irwin
I think that the primary reason for job loss, especially in America, is things. Films, film and TV shows have gotten too expensive. So it's the escalating cost of production and the escalating time it takes to create. So when something's gotten 5x more expensive over a 10 year period and it takes 3, 4, 5 years to create, that's the primary reason jobs have been lost. And so I actually think this technology is going to allow us to create faster and it's going to allow us to create cheap enough that the studios are much more comfortable with the risk. And that means a lot more things will get made. And that means a lot of jobs will be created. And for us at wonder again, everybody's entitled to their own set of opinions, but there's one set of facts. We were able to challenge the status quo to create things much faster at much lower budget numbers. And we put over a thousand crew members to work last year and we're doing it again this year. These are real jobs. And so I'm very, I'm very might be a little disruptive, but I'm very optimistic about the renaissance of creativity that's going to be on the other side of the implementation of these tools because you're going to see a lot more bets on new IP and original and authentic voices because things are going to get cheaper and faster to make. But. And I think the pie will grow so, so much larger that in aggregate it's going to create a lot of jobs. And we love being a part of that revolution. I mean, I think the best way to predict the future is to roll up your sleeves and help create it. I also think that it's a whole lot easier to criticize than it is to create. And it's one of the reasons why I love the story of Washington and the Founding Fathers. They didn't just sit back and complain about taxes. They began to, you know, taxation without representation. They began to imagine a new world. And they bet everything on that new world. And they created it together, and we live in it today. And so that's cool. And so I just love the idea of if I deeply believe in something, I would much rather just join with a bunch of fearless artists that can help try to figure out what it is and what it's going to become than just criticize it before you try it, if that makes sense.
- [50:46]
Kevin Gentry
This is outstanding, John. Thank you. All right, we're going to bring this to a close. Couple of questions. What would you like people in the audience to take away? There's a 16 year old in the audience. What do you want them to feel as a result? Do as a result? And what do you want to have happen five years from now when this has passed, but yet there's still consequences
- [51:11]
John Irwin
when Washington comes out in theaters? I think on the. I still can't believe that. I believe that's what the question is.
- [51:17]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. From Young Washington, which comes out July 3rd.
- [51:21]
John Irwin
So amazing that it comes out on our 250. It's so cool. Again, if I have a profound experience with a story that's meaningful and life changing, I just want to give that experience to the audience. And for me, 10 years ago, I couldn't get into Hamilton. I raged. I eventually did, by the way. I've seen the play multiple times. It's amazing. Never with the original cast, though, but I raged against it, read a bunch of books, and really then just lost control of my curiosity and just learned and learned and learned. After that process, I was filled with an incredible sense of awe and wonder. It's interesting, a psychologist would tell you you cannot feel disdain and gratitude simultaneously. Those two emotions cancel each other out. So any disdain was just replaced with an extreme sense of gratitude. And when you really understand the American story, you're blown away that it worked at all. You understand that it is the American experiment, that it is new, that it is entrusted to us, and you're filled with a sense of awe and wonder. And I think we are a nation bound by ideas more than anything else. And to the extent we lose sight of those, we lose the ties that bind us together. And so my hope is that people will see young Washington, love it, be entertained. I hope on a personal level some 16 year old will be sitting there and think, I can do it too. If he can do it, I can do it. And I hope people that are going through a season of pain or failure in their life will realize, as I have realized, that your failures do not have to define you, but they can shape you if you let them into the person that you're destined to become. But I hope that we realize as Americans that we have earned the right, despite our differences, to celebrate this country together like we co own it, we co author it, and that is often the reason we argue about it. But I hope that we can take a minute to really be proud of what this nation is and represents on our 250. And I hope the movie is a chance for people to do that in theaters. It was my editor's idea, but there's this moment where there's some wrap up text at the end of the movie and the last paragraph of text comes up and it holds on the words the United States of America. And the amount of times people, whether it's in New York or in Texas or, you know, in California, people cheer at that line. It's so cool. And so my hope is that we're all filled with a sense of awe and wonder and pride over what this nation is, that it's still new on the world stage, you know, by comparison. And that it's our idea to cherish and to kind of steward, you know, what Washington himself called the glorious cause or the sacred fire, liberty, you know, that it's, that that torch has been given to us. And that's really, that's really cool. And that's my hope. So on a personal level, I hope that it's a love letter to all the dreamers out there. And it's an encouragement to anyone going through a challenging time in their life to just keep going and not give up. On a corporate kind of civic level, I hope it's an invitation to celebrate. We'll have plenty of time over the course of time to argue. And that's one of the things that actually also makes America unique and great. You can't have the type of arguments we have in a dictatorship, you know, But I hope that we can realize that the 250 represents a time where we can actually celebrate together. And I hope that's what people do when they see the movie. And then what I would like to see happen over five years is if you want to get into, like, the global economics of entertainment. You know, entertainment is America's second largest export behind agriculture. And so a lot of times we have to engineer these stories for their global appeal. So one thing that I think has been somewhat lost is just the American story and the uniqueness of the American story. And it's just a. It's a forcing function of economics and entertainment because you got to think about, you know, especially if you spend a lot on it, how it does in other countries. But I think the American story matters. And. And I hope that this is the beginning of a resurgence of a genre of American history and the story of the creation of our country or some of our great leaders or figures. I hope people can be reintroduced to their nation again over the course of time with many movies. And so whether those are things that I do or copycats or whatever, I just hope more American stories are told and this is a unique way for us to tell them. That would be my great hope, is that this is the first of something and the revival of a genre that I think is dormant but should come back on its merits. I think America needs to be reintroduced to itself. And I think a lot of the problems that we have as citizens. And by the way, one of the great words struck out. There should be a whole documentary done about the words struck out of the Declaration of Independence and what was written in. Like Jefferson writes, we hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable. Franklin strikes out and says self evident, like measurable, which is interesting. But one of the other words struck out is the word subjects. And it was struck out and replaced with the word citizens. That's such a cool idea of something that we're all a part of in a very real way. You know, government of the people and by the people and for the people. So my hope is that that sort of. That we'll have a moment where we kind of lay down our arms and celebrate the country together. And then my hope is that more stories like this will be told. And. And then my hope from a personal level is that people will see it and realize that. Here's to the dreamers that sign up for things that they have no idea how to do, fail multiple times while attempting them, but then endure to become what they're meant to be become. And those are the stories that I love to tell and show me a great figure of history that did not say yes to something really scary that they didn't know how to do, and they did not first fail at it multiple times before they Figured it out. To quote Ryan Reynolds, to do something well, you have to first have the courage to do it poorly. And so I hope that lesson sticks and people are willing to say yes to their dreams and ambitions the same way Washington said yes to his. That'd be my hope.
- [58:06]
Kevin Gentry
Okay, well, that's the perfect segue into my last question. The film shows the guy is humiliated. He's set back. He has all these things, and he just keeps going. He keeps going. And this is the early life doesn't even capture this moment when he rises to the occasion as a leader multiple times extraordinary, and yet they want to make him king, and he says no. What do you believe, John Irwin, as a result of your study now of George Washington, would he, George Washington, want us, 250 years later, to take away from this moment in time and to do going forward?
- [58:49]
John Irwin
That is a great question. Well, first of all, historically, I think there's a lesson that he gave up absolute power twice. Once with the army and once as president. I think there's a lesson in who you study. Like, who do you. Who are your mentors? Washington, self. He created himself. He created his ethos, and he was undereducated, so he read like crazy. And he studied a lot of the great Romans through, like, Plutarch's essays and Plutarch's lives. And one of those was Cincinnatus, of which we get Cincinnati. And Cincinnatus was a Roman general, farmer general, who at times of great distress, the republic was suspended. All power was vested in one person. And Cincinnatus, you know, Caesar did not give it back. But Cincinnatus was a guy that twice gave it back and went back to farming. And Washington studied his life, and he actually became his obsession. And there's a lesson there. He literally became the embodiment of the people that he most admired. And I find that interesting. And I hope that that's one of the things that the movie will do is I hope he can. I think he later in his life did understand iconography and the idea that he was becoming the embodiment of a concept. And that's why it was so important for him to not run for a third term and so on, and give. Give power back. I think if he were here today, first of all, I said this in New York, I said this in California, I said this in Texas. I think Washington would be truly blown away by the vastness of America, by its influence on the world stage. I think he would have such a sigh of relief that the nation endured and that the union stayed together. And I think he would be utterly blown away at what America has become. I think he would be shocked. I think so many of the founding fathers were so scared that this man, there's no way this union lasts. You know, as Franklin would say, a republic if you can keep it. I mean, they were all terrified that the country would break apart. And many times it almost did. So the fact that America is here, that America is this influential on the world stage, that America that we not only went over the mountains, we went all the way to the sea in the west coast, like it's a vast country, I think would blow him away. And then I think he would share the concerns he shared when he left office. He would be worried about partisanship. He would be worried about that sacred fire, liberty staying lit. He would be worried about the common Americans education and dedication to the cause and understanding of what America is. And so I think on one part he would be blown away. And I think at a second part, he would be concerned at things that we should be continually concerned about is, are we holding together as one people again, being able. You do not get a republic, you do not get freedom without partisanship. That is, those two are inextricably linked. The only way to truly deal with partisanship is a dictator and another form of government that we don't want. So the fact that we can argue is a part of who we are, but we have to learn to argue in a way where we maintain loyalty to each other and to the overarching idea that the nation represents. And I think that the visceral nature of partisanship and the divide in America would concern him, but it also existed in his day as well. But in his day there was partisanship, but there was also intellectual curiosity and, and there was an overarching loyalty to the American concept and idea. And I think that he would encourage us all to remember that, that above, whether we're Republicans, Democrats or libertarians or undecided, that there's a bigger idea that unites us all. And I think that he would encourage us to believe in the goodness of every American citizen. So to, to basically, I think he would push us to optimism, if that makes sense, and push us to a common belief in each other and a common belief to the overarching idea of America. But I also think he would be utterly blown away by what the American people have accomplished since, you know, since his time. And, and I think he would be filled with what we should all be filled with, which is an incredible sense of pride and belief in each other and in the American idea.
- [63:31]
Kevin Gentry
Now. Hear, hear. Well, ladies and gentlemen, celebrate America's 250th by going to see young Washington. Make it a family event. Make it a community event. John Irwin, it's been awesome to have you as our guest today on the Going Big Podcast.
- [63:45]
John Irwin
I love the name Going Big again. My dad said dream bold, Dream big, Dream the impossible.
- [63:50]
Kevin Gentry
So what?
- [63:50]
John Irwin
That's such a great name for a podcast. And thanks for having me on. And. And I will see everyone in theaters July 3rd.
- [63:59]
Kevin Gentry
You bet. All right. Thanks a lot, John.
- [64:01]
John Irwin
Take care.
- [64:03]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, but wherever you listen to podcasts, it really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources, and updates at our website, going big podcast.com remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.