Going Big! with Kevin Gentry

Episode: Todd Rose on Breaking the Mold, Ditching Average, and Going Big on Your Own Terms
Release Date: July 21, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Going Big! with Kevin Gentry, host Kevin Gentry engages in an enlightening conversation with Todd Rose, a renowned social entrepreneur, bestselling author, and professor. The discussion navigates through Rose's transformative personal journey, his groundbreaking work on individuality, and his influential books—"End of Average," "Dark Horse," and "Collective Illusions."

Todd Rose’s Personal Journey

Todd Rose opens up about a pivotal moment in his life, sharing deeply personal experiences that shaped his professional ethos. Reflecting on the loss of his wife and reaching the age of 50, Rose emphasizes the importance of pursuing meaningful and transformative endeavors over mundane tasks driven by fear.

Todd Rose [00:00]:
"When I think about the work that I do, I promised myself that I would only do big things. And by that I mean the things I care about and the things that if they succeed, have the ability to transform, not just tinker."

Rose recounts his tumultuous high school years, marked by a mere 0.9 GPA and eventual dropout. Faced with the responsibility of supporting his family, including two young children, Rose transitioned from a series of minimum wage jobs to pursuing higher education, driven by a profound sense of accountability and a desire to break free from societal conformity.

Todd Rose [02:42]:
"I felt the responsibility there. My father-in-law said, 'You either need to start a business or go to college and get some more skill.'"

Inspired by his father, the first college graduate in his family who advanced from mechanic to mechanical engineer, Rose overcame significant academic challenges. He earned his GED and enrolled at Weber State University, initially facing barriers such as limited access to on-campus classes. His determination led him to embrace contexts that aligned with his individuality, ultimately graduating as the honor student of the year and earning a doctorate from Harvard.

Todd Rose [09:04]:
“There are really two things that I learned from that experience... fit and the unbelievable importance of relationships.”

The End of Average

In "End of Average," Rose challenges the conventional reliance on average metrics in understanding human potential. He reveals that scientific and societal systems have long depended on group-level insights, often neglecting individual distinctiveness.

Todd Rose [23:41]:
"You cannot understand individuals by understanding the groups that they're a part of."

He illustrates this with a groundbreaking neuroscience study where the "average brain" concept was rendered meaningless, as individual brains significantly deviated from the average. This realization underscores the necessity of personalized approaches in fields like medicine, education, and ergonomics.

Rose highlights the Air Force's shift from designing cockpits based on average body sizes to adopting human factors and ergonomics, showcasing the tangible benefits of recognizing individual variability.

Todd Rose [25:00]:
"Why wouldn't we build flexible environments to adapt to the uniqueness of individuals?"

He profiles companies like Costco and Zoho, which have successfully implemented individualized strategies, moving away from rigid job descriptions to harnessing unique talent profiles. This approach not only fosters employee satisfaction but also drives organizational success.

Dark Horse Insights

In his 2018 book, "Dark Horse," Rose explores the lives of individuals who defied conventional paths to achieve extraordinary success. Through the Dark Horse Project, Rose and his team studied hundreds of objectively successful individuals who did not follow traditional trajectories.

Todd Rose [30:50]:
"People wanted to talk about how they discovered their passion, how they discovered what truly motivated them."

A quintessential story from the book is that of Susan Rogers, who escaped an abusive marriage to pursue her passion for music. Despite lacking formal education in sound engineering, Rogers self-taught herself through unconventional means, ultimately becoming the sound engineer for Prince's iconic album, Purple Rain. Her journey epitomizes the Dark Horse mindset—pursuing fulfillment leads to excellence and transformative success.

Todd Rose [39:21]:
"If you marry the pursuit of fulfillment with a contribution orientation, you will live a great life, I promise you."

Collective Illusions

In his latest work, "Collective Illusions," Rose delves into the phenomenon where individuals conform to perceived group norms, often misaligning with their true beliefs. This misperception leads to widespread social misconceptions and policies that do not reflect the actual desires of the majority.

Todd Rose [43:10]:
"Collective illusions are just the shorthand for this is it's group think. But you're wrong about the group."

Rose explains that social media exacerbates this issue by amplifying extreme voices, creating a distorted view of group consensus. For instance, he cites the "Defund the Police" movement, where public polls dramatically overestimated Democratic support due to collective illusions.

Todd Rose [45:19]:
"Mark Zuckerberg is giving $100 million signing bonuses to try to get people away from OpenAI, it's like, okay, but I almost guarantee you, you've got phenomenally talented people in your organization."

He introduces strategies to dismantle these illusions through social proof, emphasizing the role of everyday individuals in shattering false consensuses by being honest and creating environments where others feel safe to express their true beliefs.

Todd Rose [57:41]:
"You need to find the moral courage to be honest with other people... and make them feel comfortable that they can tell you the truth."

Applications to Education

Rose applies his theories to the education system, advocating for a radical shift from standardized, one-size-fits-all models to individualized education that recognizes and nurtures each student's unique potential.

Todd Rose [59:34]:
"Americans don't want a better mousetrap when it comes to education. They want something different, not just better."

He highlights the declining priority of a college degree in the American dream, with more emphasis now placed on skilled labor certifications. Rose argues that overcoming social obstacles and providing exemplars of individualized education can drive systemic transformation.

Todd Rose [63:18]:
"If you have two obstacles... then tilting it that windmill."

High vs. Low Agency

Rose discusses the importance of high agency—empowering individuals to take control of their lives—as a counter to the low agency prevalent in systems that prioritize efficiency over personal fulfillment.

Todd Rose [64:05]:
"We want control of our lives. But we got to know what that means."

He connects high agency to self-efficacy and self-actualization, advocating for societal shifts that support individuals in making autonomous choices aligned with their passions and contributions.

Final Advice and Conclusion

In his closing remarks, Rose synthesizes his insights into a simple yet profound recipe for a fulfilling life: balancing personal fulfillment with meaningful contribution.

Todd Rose [68:25]:
"Do things that matter to you. But that's one half of the equation because the other half is the contribution side."

He urges listeners to pursue passions that align with their micro motives and to contribute to the lives of others, ensuring a balanced and meaningful existence.

Todd Rose [69:57]:
"If you marry the pursuit of fulfillment with a contribution orientation, you will live a great life, I promise you."

Closing Remarks

Kevin Gentry wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to explore Todd Rose's work further through his books and the organization Populous. He underscores the transformative potential of embracing individuality and breaking free from collective illusions to achieve personal and societal success.

Kevin Gentry [69:55]:
"Thank you, Todd. As always, I'm going to have to have you back. You've got me thinking in so many different directions."

Key Takeaways

• Individuality Over Average: Emphasizing personalized approaches in education, work, and healthcare can unlock unprecedented potential.
• Fit and Relationships: Finding environments that align with individual traits and building supportive relationships are crucial for success.
• Breaking Collective Illusions: Challenging perceived group norms through honest communication can lead to more accurate and beneficial societal outcomes.
• High Agency: Empowering individuals to make autonomous, fulfillment-driven choices is essential for personal growth and societal advancement.
• Balanced Fulfillment and Contribution: Achieving a meaningful life requires a harmonious blend of pursuing personal passions and contributing to others.

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