Kevin Gentry (6:08)

Wow.

Todd Rose (6:08)

He invented so many things and saved so many people's lives. And so I watched. I watched what it means for someone to aspire for something bigger and to actually pursue it. And I saw what happened to our lives and life circumstances as a result. So I thought, well, okay, I got to do something. And so I enrolled. I got my ged, and I enrolled at Weber State University in Ogden, Utah, as open enrollment, so anybody could come. Now, at first, they wouldn't let me on campus. I could only take classes at night in off campus. But it was that journey out of desperation because all we had my family cobbled together enough money to pay for one year of school. And it wasn't very expensive. It was like something 800 a term. And even then I was like, I don't. And they said, look, if you want this bad enough, you'll figure out how to make it work. And when I started, you know, I realized I didn't know what would work, but I knew what didn't work. And up until that point, I had tried to do things the exact same way as every, you know, best practices. The. There's a. Here's how kids get good grades. This is what it means to study. This is how you do things. I tried to follow the rules that way, and it didn't work. And so I started making decisions based on what little I knew about myself at first, and that would. That would start to create a change in me. And it was small things at first. Like, I knew that I didn't have the study skills, so I needed to pick classes that I was so passionate about that was just. They were intrinsically interesting. So I would stick with it because I wanted the knowledge. And so even though my counselors were like, you failed algebra three times in high school. You should take remedial math. Even I knew that remedial math was the most taken and failed class in the country in college. So that would be. My career would have been over had I listened. So I, I, I took. I took all the classes I cared about first. I put everything that I didn't care about off as long as I could. I learned things like there were certain contexts with certain kinds of professors that really worked for me, you know, and what I didn't realize is I was starting to appreciate the value of fit. Right. And if you don't mind, I'll tell you that there was one moment that completely changed everything for me.

Kevin Gentry (8:40)

Yeah. Please tell the story. And there's so much to dig into, and I hope those listening now would understand why I said, you're perfect for the Going Big podcast. I have to say, though, Todd, because, Because not to spoil any of the end of the story, but, you know, you had a long association with Harvard University. I'm betting you're the only person affiliated with Harvard who also had a.09.0.9 GPA in high school.

Todd Rose (9:04)

It was. It was funny. Yeah. It was like. Like to get my doctorate there and then become a professor. Yeah. Nobody else had ever done that. I'm actually quite proud of that fact. But, you know, so there's this moment where it's been a couple years in. I'm. I am doing okay, you know, but for me, I thought I, you know, well, maybe that was an easy class I took, whatever. But I'm sitting in this history class. It's in a big auditorium, which was not a good context for me, but I couldn't get out of it. I'm sitting next to my buddy Steve, and the. The class is ending. We're in the very back of the auditorium, and I'm. I'm complaining about this class. And he goes, oh, listen, this is nothing compared to what I got myself into in the honors program. Now, I didn't know what the honors program was. I thought it was, like, the same stuff, but more work. And I'm like, who would do that? No, no, he. He disabused me that. He said, oh, no, it's so much worse. He said, there aren't big classes. There's, like, groups of, like, 12 to 20 kids, tops. And he's like, and there's no assignments. Like, not like, there's no tests. There's no lectures. We just sit and, like, have small group discussions. And he goes, I don't even think there are right answers because all we do is debate. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that doesn't even seem like anything I've ever heard of in terms of what education would be, Right? I was so excited. Like, this is perfect. I literally grabbed my bag, my backpack, and went right up. So the honors program at Weber State is the top of the hill. It's the second floor of the library. And again, this is an open enrollment school. I'm really proud of graduating from there. And so they take all comers, but they were really proud of this honors program. They're trying to get it.

Kevin Gentry (10:53)

You had no chance of getting into an honors program?

Todd Rose (10:55)

Yeah, like, I'm glad I didn't think that way, because I, I, in my impulsivity there, I go right up into the honors office. I go straight to this, the secretary woman named Marilyn diamond, for reasons you'll see in a minute, one of my favorite people in the world. And I said, hey, I want to be in the honors program. And she was like, that's great. Let me see if the director's in. If he got some time, maybe we just get that conversation started. Now, luck may have it, he does have time. I go into his office, I sit down, and he's very, very excited that we're building something here. He said, look, this is great. We need eager students like you. Just a few questions. Let's just get this out of the way. Application, you know, he's asking questions. He goes, well, what, What. What was your high school GPA? And I, I, no, I said, 0.9. And this is no joke. His response was, what, 09? Like, I. Like I had left out the most important part, right? I think. And. And then it dawns on me. Immediately there, I was like, oh, no. So I was like, oh, 0.9. And he just looks at me, and he wasn't mean about it. He just said, oh, yeah, you. You can't be in the honors program. Like. And I was mortified. Like, I just impulsively rushed into this thing because it sounded amazing, and now I just wanted to crawl into a hole, right? Like, And I couldn't. I'm as fast as I could grab all my stuff, and I'm apologizing profusely to him for wasting his time just trying to get out of there. And I'm headed out the door, and Marilyn Diamond's desk was just right next to the door. This is his secretary. And as I'm walking out, she reached out and just grabbed my arm, and she said, hey, I overheard the conversation. If you want this, don't take no for an answer. That was the first time that ever occurred to me that you could do that. And I said, what do you mean? She said, just sit on the couch here and don't leave until he lets you in. So I sat on the couch, and he came out to go teach a class because he was a professor, too. And he said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I want to be in the honors program. He said, you can't be in the honors program. So he goes and teaches this class. He comes back a couple of hours later. It felt like a whole day for me, but it was just. And he comes in, he goes, oh, you're still here. And he walks into his office. Then he pokes his head back. I said, come here. So I go back in. He said, listen, tell me why you want to be in the honors program. Because on paper, it makes no sense. And so I started explaining to him, you know, my journey, and that I had learned some things about myself, including the kinds of context that I thought I would actually thrive in. And this seemed perfect for me. And he said, okay, you know, I can't just let you in straight up, but what I can do is let you in on a provisional basis. And what I want you to do is you choose one honors class, and if you do well in it, I'll let you choose another. And if you do it the rest of the year, then I'll let you in for good. And he said, well, by the way, let me be clear what I mean by do well in the class. He said, I don't care if you're the straight A student. I care that when I ask that professor, they can't imagine the class without you. That's what he defined as success. So I chose wisely. I chose this. I still remember it to this day. The course is called Plagues of the Modern Age. And it was so terrifying, right? I almost became a vegan just because I'm like, how does anyone eat ground beef? Right? Like, but. And what was. What was so interesting is flash forward, it was a perfect fit. And I ended up graduating a few years later as the honor student of the year for Weber state with a 397GPA in psychology and pre med. And I was accepted into Harvard, straight into Harvard for my doctorate without a master's degree. And I don't say that to brag. I say that. Just that. No, that's.

Kevin Gentry (14:55)

Yeah, exactly.

Todd Rose (14:56)

And. And, you know, there are really two things that I learned from that experience that have really informed everything that I've done since professionally and they really have to do with how you think about human potential and what people are worth, what they can really contribute. And look, I worked really, really hard. I did. But the first thing that I learned was this idea of fit. And so. So often we think about talent, we think about dumb things. Sorry, but like IQ or something, there's some. How. There's this generalized thing that matters independent of context, that's just simply not true. It's not true. Scientifically, fit really matters. And it's about finding that fit between your individuality and the environment you're in. And I promise you, it is unbelievable what happens, because I was the same kid. You know what I mean? It's just. Yeah, I had some motivation. But you. You get into a context where it's such a good fit. And look, I worked hard, but it felt easy. I can't describe. It's like suddenly you're just in that flow, right? So fit will become a critical part of what we learned in the science of individuality. Like, we can talk about later. But the second thing is the unbelievable importance of relationships. And, you know, like Marilyn Diamond. Exactly. And if I look at my whole career, I could tell you that story through the lens of a handful of people who believed in me, believed in my potential, even when I didn't see it at the right times. And here's the thing. Here's what's really funny. So Marilyn diamond changed my life, right? So a few years ago, I get asked to come back to Weber State to accept an award as Alum of the Year. I'm really excited. And I'm giving this speech, and turns out Marilyn Diamond's in the audience, and they had just told me she was retiring, so I thought, what a great example to tell everyone who will listen some version of the story I just shared with you. And, you know, it's great. There's tears for a bunch of everybody. And the dean goes, hey, Marilyn, do you want to come up and say a few words? And she's so humble that she just. She gets up there, she gives me a hug, and then she adjusts the microphone. She's quite a bit shorter than I am. And she said, todd, I. I really appreciate the story, but I have to be honest, I don't remember that. And I thought she was saying I was lying, like. Like I said. I said, well, it happened. She goes, no, no, I do believe it happened. I just don't remember it. But here was the thing.

Kevin Gentry (17:36)

You weren't that special.

Todd Rose (17:37)

No, I thought. I thought it was something about me, it turns out it was something about Marilyn. Everybody had a Marilyn diamond story.

Kevin Gentry (17:44)

And exactly what's crazy, everybody who's listening to this is now processing in their mind. Well, hopefully each person has a Marilyn diamond story or two or three, Somebody that believed in them. Wow.

Todd Rose (17:57)

Well, can I tell you this, though? Let me say one more thing. When we think about what it means to believe in someone, you often think that it requires such a heavy lift. And I think we tend to shy away from that. Right. But we can all be the Marilyn Diamonds in other people's stories. And you think about it, her effort changed my life. And it was so inconsequential to her that she didn't even remember doing it. That's the asymmetry about what it means to believe in people. And so when we start to realize that we all have a role to play in each other's success and we start looking for those small, what I would call those Marilyn diamond moments, you'll be amazed at the kind of impact that you can have on other people's lives.

Kevin Gentry (18:42)

That is beautiful. Well, Todd, Todd, I'm a little bit older than you, but I also grew up in rural America. My mother was the 10th of 10 children. None of her family ever even thought of college as an option. I don't think that many even finish high school. My dad had a semester of college, and he was the first in his family to go. And that's as far as he went. But when I was growing up, 70s and 80s, you were told, we were all told, if you want to make something of your life, go be a doctor or a lawyer. You got to go to college and be a doctor or a lawyer. And I went to college to be a lawyer. Thank goodness I didn't. But, you know, and I. And I could. And I can think of all the Todd Roses that I remember back in my schooling days who never made it beyond junior high or high school or whatever, who just dropped out. And Maybe not at 0.9, but similar situations. And we're like, well, they'll never make anything of their. Their life. What did that experience? Things have changed, and I got a lot to talk about today. But what did that experience tell you about the sort of traditional way of processing how we should live our lives?

Todd Rose (19:51)

Yeah. Like these systems really do assume that there's one right way. And we've standardized our society. You know, it, thanks to folks like Frederick Taylor and scientific management, this idea that we can. The name of the game is efficiency. So if we standardize everything, look it works that way, but we've done that to human beings, right? We start to treat ourselves as interchangeable cogs. And so even when we think about what it means to be successful, we have one ideal, and we all try to chase it. It's like, literally, the game becomes, do the same things as everybody else, only do them better. And what gets lost in that shuffle is our distinctiveness. And you know what? As we kind of talked about earlier, look, I think. Look, I think the biggest relation. The problem here is that we are losing so much talent, so many contributions at a time when we can't afford that. And I think, you know, look, I'm not special. I'm not like, I promise you, there are so many other people just like me who didn't have the Maryland diamonds or just didn't have the opportunity to be able to realize that potential. And I just think, like, you know, we just know way too much about human potential and human distinctiveness to do as little as we do right now. And. And whether it's wanting more people to live meaningful, fulfilling lives or it's just selfish that we need all the talent we can get, right? The answer is the same. You've got to start seeing the dignity and worth of individuals on their own terms, not as part of interchangeable cogs in some system that matters more than people.

Kevin Gentry (21:36)

All right, so this is the whole science of the individual. But I want to progress a little bit because you. You've had three really consequential books, and if I could, I'd like to walk through each and kind of cr. Chronological order. The first was the end of average, where you made the argument that, like, we're too obsessed with measuring everything by average and everybody looks at each other in that way, but we're not. And I remember so many times, like, well, you know, we have to keep up with the Joneses, and we have to have. We have to do this and we have to go through this. We have to do these different things and live this different life and this sea of sameness, but yet we're all these individuals. Tell us about sort of what you discovered and were proposing through the end of average. About. About this.

Todd Rose (22:25)

Yeah, it was pretty wild. So, you know, I went to Harvard for my doctorate. I got the honor of working with one of the founders of this field. He since passed away. His name was Kurt Fisher, a pioneer in this field. And here was the insight which was mind blowing to me. It turns out in science and in society, we spend all of our time focused on group Level insights. So if, like, I'll give you an example, I did brain imaging research as a professor, and if you were in one of my studies, would bring you into the place, would put you in a scanner, we'd give you a task, would measure your brain doing that task, and then we would reflexively just merge everybody's brains together, everybody that was in the study, and we'd create an average brain, and then we'd publish that average brain as if that was it. That was the insight. Right. That's how most science has been done up until recently. And then people apply those insights in schools, at work, in culture. And we all got obsessed about, like, no one thinks the average is perfect, but we all sort of assumed it was close enough, right? Yeah, you might, you might miss out on a few people, but it's basically covering most people.

Kevin Gentry (23:41)

It's kind of like the wisdom of the crowds. We think we just need to go where everybody is really going because that's somehow the right thing, right?

Todd Rose (23:48)

Yeah. And, and we can touch on that with collective illusions, because it's decidedly not right. But in this case, what we found out, and I, I remember where I was when I first saw the first study of this. It was a neuroscience study where one of my colleagues had done the same thing I just told you about with the study on memory. And he, what he, what he realized is the average pattern in the brain literally applied to nobody. In that study, the people that the average was derived from, their brains were completely different than this. It was just this. It was a nonsensical insight. So this is the insight from end of average. It's not that we're like better than average versus where it's a nonsensical reference point. It doesn't exist. And the insight has been you cannot understand individuals by understanding the groups that they're a part of. Now that insight and the methodologies we helped pioneer have led to a revolution in medicine. Right. The way we study cancer and, and, and heal you if you get sick, has benefit from this. Because we used to think that there was average cancer, like, like colon cancer, which is the third most lethal and diagnosed cancer in the world. For 40 years, we thought there was one pathway, one precursor lesion, some genetic mutations, and then cancer. Right. Turns out when you apply the science of individuality, instead of averages, there are three distinct pathways. We, we, we were letting people die because we assumed there was only one average pathway. Same thing's true in nutrition, it's true in learning. So all of this personalization that's revolutionizing things comes from these central insights. And for me, I was looking at this going, well, that explains a lot, right? Like, we built these entire systems that assume that average students exist, that, you know, average employees exist. In the book, you'll see one of my favorite stories. I'll save it. You can read it. But, like, when the Air Force figured this out into the design of cockpits, they were designing cockpits in fighter jets as if there was an average body size. And it turns out it was nonsensical. As soon as they realized this wasn't true, they invent. They literally invented human factors, right? Ergonomics, that whole field comes out of this right way. Why, why wouldn't we build flexible environments to adapt to the uniqueness of individuals? And so there's a whole story in the book on this, which is quite amazing. But so for me, it was both validating because it helped explain my, my earlier stuff at Weber State. It was like, right, finding a good fit with my individuality unlocks something. But so for me, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've. I'd graduated, I was a professor. I became the, the director of this program that I was a part of called the Mind Brain Education Program. And I thought these insights are way too important just to be in scientists having these conversations. Like, because I was watching, you know, the only people coming to me with, with our methodologies were people in charge of big systems, right? The places like Amazon and these, they're like, we want to know our customer better. I'm like, that's really great. But it started worrying me that we could pretty quickly enter a world where these systems know you better than you know yourself, because they're thinking from the science of individuality. You're thinking from these old outdated concepts, right? And so I felt like, well, we need to tell people. And so I had written. I wrote the end of Average. I'll perfectly honest, I had no idea what to expect. Like, and it became a runaway bestseller. It was, it was amazing and really started the process by which got me where I am today.

Kevin Gentry (27:28)

Well, okay, so. Well, this is so revolutionary. And this was written almost 10 years ago, so we got a lot more to cover, ground to cover, and you're moving at an accelerating pace. I know, but, but what does it mean when leaders and organizations stop sort of managing to the middle and can treat each person as an individual? I mean, that's, that's revolutionary.

Todd Rose (27:52)

Well, in and in End of Average, I actually did profile some companies that I thought were Doing quite a good job at that, right? Everything from Costco to Zoho, which is a phenomenal Indian based company, where they had recognized the failure of averages and started thinking differently. Like, how silly is it that we have a job description and then we try to go wedge individuals into that job description full form, right? Instead of saying, well, there's certain tasks that need to be done. But now I've got this talented person coming in, how do I get the most out of their contributions, right? Like, and modify. And so these companies start doing a lot better. But here's what's been the cool insight. Once you stop managing from the middle and you start thinking about the people that you're responsible for as individuals with unique talent profiles, you start realizing that, you know, we always think we're in this talent scarce world and we all end up trying to, we're going to go, I mean, think about like right now, now in AI, where I just read that Mark Zuckerberg is giving $100 million signing bonuses to try to get people away from OpenAI, it's like, okay, maybe, but I almost guarantee you, you've got phenomenally talented people in your organization. And so instead of thinking my job is just to acquire and you're overpaying, it's the cultivation of the talent that's right in front of you. At places like Zoho, they realized that it was so important that they, they expect every employee to essentially take a sabbatical and sample different parts of the organization. And like, for example, at one point their, their VP of marketing came from engineering. It just turned out he had a phenomenal knack for it. And so it's like just if you get out of that mindset that, that Frederick Taylor gave us with scientific management, that these people are not interchangeable cogs, they are unique human beings with unique talent profiles, motivational profiles. And your job is to actually discover, develop and help them contribute. You're going to be shocked at what, what's possible.

Kevin Gentry (29:53)

All right, okay, next you write dark horse in 2018. And that, as I recall, it's more about you. You gotta follow your gut. You gotta, I mean, find, find your passion and follow that. And Todd, a few episodes ago on the Going Big podcast, I interviewed these immigrant brothers who were just slotted for technology. One went to mit, they were just slotted for technology, but they just weren't thrilled. One of them just said, I want to pursue my passion, which is wine. And they have now developed probably the best ultra premium wine product in Walla Walla Washington, which is this upcoming place, by following their passion. And he said it was so against what their family wanted them to do. But at age 40, when they were in their 40s, they said, I want to. Let's do what we want to do. I mean, tell us a little bit about that.

Todd Rose (30:50)

It's perfect.

Kevin Gentry (30:50)

What's one of your favorite stories?

Todd Rose (30:52)

What a perfect example. So let me tell you. I do have one of my favorite stories. I can't wait to share it. But it so dark. So End of Average takes off, right? It just so happens that Harvard's in the midst of a capital campaign for which they are touting this science of individuality. I decide I'm gonna leave because. Trying to pursue my own things. And they're like, yeah, please don't. You can't leave. We made a deal. I'll stay for a few years. And they say, look, but. But we want you to do some more research just so we have something to point to. And they said, we'll give you some money to do it. What do you want to do? Well, in writing, End of Average, as I was mentioning earlier, I had profiled these companies that had done a great job with individuality. But along the way, I met some unbelievably cool individuals in these companies that were crushing life. But as I got to know them, they had these really crazy backstories, right? Coming out of nowhere, I'm like, I get why you're doing a good job here. I just don't know how you got here, because it was like, zigged and zagged and. And so I thought, you know, somebody has to have studied this, right? How do people that come out of nowhere and becomes, is there. Is it just luck? Is there something that we can learn? And so I was like, you know what? Didn't seem like anyone had done it. So we started this dark horse project at Harvard, and it was the first time we studied hundreds and hundreds of people from all walks of life who were objectively successful. So they got nominated by people like, oh, this person's amazing in their field, and yet they didn't follow a traditional path. And I, at first, you know, we started doing. It was the first time we ever did qualitative research because I was like, I don't have any real hypotheses. So we just got. But it turns out you can learn a lot from people if you just listen. Surprise, surprise.

Kevin Gentry (32:45)

Amazing. Isn't that.

Todd Rose (32:47)

And. But what's funny is, going in. I wanted to ask them about how they got good at Things. But almost right off the bat, what they wanted to talk about is how they discovered their passion, how they discovered what truly motivated them. And people started using the word fulfillment and other things. And I was like, ah, what am I supposed to do with this? This is squishy idea that doesn't feel very scientific and like, but listen, you know it. So we started, okay, well, let's lean in. You're saying this key insight was uniformly what they did was the world's telling them to pursue excellence as the world's defined it, and that you'll be fulfilled on the back end. Now, if you think about for two seconds, we've all pursued that standardized path and you know, you all know plenty of people who are very successful by society's standards and absolutely miserable. Like, just miserable. And the thing that these dark horses had in common is first of all, they just light up rooms when they're in them. Their passion and energy was just like, you want a part of that? And so it was like, okay, well wait, if you're saying you're flipping the script and that they got to be excellent through pursuing fulfillment, right? And I was like, if that's true, then how did you do that? And what was so cool is because it could have just been idiosyncratic. It could have just been, my path is so different. And so there's nothing to learn. But no, pretty quickly distilled like four principles that these people were pursuing, even if they didn't sometimes realize it, that made that pursuit of fulfillment a reliable path to excellence and success in life. And that was just mind blowing to me. And I felt like it helped me understand a lot of my own journey. But what was really cool is I thought of dark horses as people like me, people who screwed up and then, then weren't screw ups, right? But what was cool is about half of them were people who did really well in life. And they get to a point in life like, like, like the two gentlemen you talked about, they are 40 years old or whatever, and you're like, you know what, man? I've been doing it the way people have told me I'm supposed to do it. And they all think I'm doing great, I'm not happy. And they, they end up making these incredible pivots in their careers into stuff that people are like, wait, how did you go from this to this? Like, it makes no sense. But once you understand the dark horse mindset, it makes perfect sense. Now let me give you what I think is, I love this story so much. And I could give you. There's dozens and dozens of them. But there was this woman named Susan Rogers and her journey. It's one of the only stories I threaded all the way through the book, came back to it a number of times. Was that good? She starts out in an abusive marriage. That's. That's when we first meet her. And I think it's important because sometimes fulfillment means getting out of bad stuff first. Right? You don't have to accept that. She had been at a. She loved music. She had been at a. At a concert in the LA Forum back in the day, and she got home late, and her husband had actually kind of roughed her up a bit because she didn't come home in time. And she just decided one day she was at the Forum and she said, someday I'm going to be back here. That was her thing. Well, she'd had enough. She literally just walked out. Didn't have a place to live. And it is. But here's what's really cool. As she's trying to figure out her life, she knows she cares about music. Can't sing a lick, right. But she had gotten this album, and she'd seen on the back of it that it said sound engineer. She's like, well, there's a thing called sound engineers. That's kind of cool. I. I could do that. I, you know, I don't want to perform. I could do that. But now, of course, where do you go to get trained to be a sound engineer? Well, the best place was in la. But she had no chance of getting in. None. So that should be the end of the story. Except for not if you're Susan Rogers. She's like, well, would you hire me as the secretary? There was a position for the secretary. They said, what would love you as a secretary? She said on the condition that when it's. When I'm not at work, I can sit in on classes, even if it's not for credit. And they're like, sure, right? So she starts to audit all the classes, acquire the knowledge. She gets to this point where it's. She has to get this technical expertise and she can't get it. And the classes don't align with. When she has time. She's like, well, I guess, is that the end of my journey? Well, it turns out in her telling of the story, the place in the world that has the most sophisticated technical stuff in this space was the US Army. I have no idea why, but it was true. Sushi, she calls them. And she's like, Listen, you've got these manuals that are like legendary in this. Could you send them to me? And they said, well, are you planning on enlisting? And she said, well, I'm not, not planning on enlisting. Like, I don't want to lie to you. I don't have. And they, they, they saw, they thought that was kind of cool, that she was interested. They shipped them to her and she taught herself this deeply technical thing. She needed to. So she gets that stuff now. She doesn't really have a degree or whatever, but she starts to grab opportunities with low level bands that she could start to contribute. And she does, and she does. And she starts building up this knack and people like, she's really good at this. And then Prince, who was her idol, decides to move to Minnesota and he's going to set up a shop in this, in a home. And people are like, no one wants to live in Minnesota. That's in the music industry. That's like a dead end. She goes, I will. So she goes there and she gets to know Prince and he, they, they become such a. They just love each other. She ends up being the sound engineer for Purple Rain, one of the greatest albums ever. And here's, here's the cool thing. Her, her story, it gives me chills even now just thinking about it. Because her story culminates in Prince's final tour in LA at the place that she had vowed one day she would return. And she is now the sound engineer for that. And what's amazing is, I'll say this, that's not even the end. She's obsessed with it. And she goes, you know what? I also like, I like the brain. And I wonder how music works in the brain. So she went to college in her 40s, and then she went to graduate school and she is now a professor of neuroscience and music. So that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Talk about going big. Do you know what I mean?

Kevin Gentry (39:21)

This is awesome. This is just the best. Okay, well, Todd, for somebody that's listening, that's saying like, okay, I got to get out of what I'm doing. I know what I want to do. This isn't it. What words of encouragement or advice would you offer?

Todd Rose (39:37)

I think it's important. And there's something I learned from Dark Horses about how they make choices, right? Because all of us have some constraints, right? Like when I was growing up, I had two kids I had to take care of. And so while there might be some interesting choices I could make that if it's going to harm the kids. I'm not going to do it. So what they do which is so remarkable is looking at their choices. You optimize for fulfillment. Which one of these is going to be the most. The best fit for my passions, my motivations? And then here's the second part, and it's really important. Can you live with the worst case scenario? You'll be shocked at how often you'll say yes. If you can live with the worst case scenario, then do it. Do it. And if you can't, then go on to the next best choice that optimizes fulfillment. That is. It's such an unlock. It really is. And great advice in Dark Horse. The second thing I'd say is what's really important for you to stay in control of your choices is you've got to know yourself. And the most important thing I learned from Dark Horses is to understand what truly motivates you. And you'll see in the book, motivation is not what you think it is. We tend to think of these grand, sweeping universal motivation things like. But what you find out is literally called them micro motives. Because people are motivated by very different things. There were people in the book. There's no kidding. One guy was literally the most motivated by aligning physical objects with his hands. I'm like, there's no way anyone's motivated by that. That seems like the worst thing in the world to me.

Kevin Gentry (41:09)

What does that mean?

Todd Rose (41:11)

Literally, physical objects. The ability to align physical objects is like, he literally went and invented technologies that were so hard. He was an engineer. It was. It's just crazy. But the point is you. You look at an individual and what are my micro motives? Because those are the durable things, right? And so what's interesting is the way I would tell people to start investigating that for themselves is think about the things that you are passionate about and then ask yourself why. Because passion is the motivation applied to an object. Or experience the danger with that is if all I know is the passion, when that thing is no longer available to me, boy, that's tough, right? Think about people have midlife crises or say, professional athletes who can't practice their craft anymore and they're in their 30s and they're like, what am I supposed to do? But when you ask yourself why there's so many reasons, say, I do love American football, but so why is it because I like competition or teamwork or being outdoors or physical activity? There's a myriad of combinations of reasons why I could love it and you could love it and if you get down to those micro motives, those are portable, right? So if I can't play football anymore, which I certainly couldn't, I can recombine those motives into other things and continue with this constant stream of passion that's such an unlock. So to me that's the key is, is know how to make the choices and be able to read them and start to know yourself at the level of your micro motives.

Kevin Gentry (42:43)

Okay, so your third book or, or your most recent book or I may be wrong on both counts, but collective illusions. Collective illusions. This, this is really to me a bit mind blowing. So this is this, this idea that we, we, we allow ourselves to be guided by these things that we think we ought to do without challenging them. And how do we explain this a little bit more and tell us how to break out of these illusions?

Todd Rose (43:10)

Here's what's crazy. Okay, so collective illusions are just the shorthand for this is it's group think. But you're wrong about the group let that think. We already know group thinks bad, right? Don't just go along with the crowd because they're all doing it right. But this is so much worse. You misread your own community and you believe that they believe something they don't. And so you go along with it to belong. And nobody really wanted it. Like it's. So the formal definition is a social phenomenon where most people in a group go along with something they don't personally agree with because they incorrectly think most other people agree with it. So as a result, entire groups end up doing something that almost nobody wanted. It's mind blowing because you're like, wait, how could that like, like. And here's what's funny. Up until the advent of social media, this phenomenon, we've known about it for like a hundred years, but it was so rare to be that wrong that scientists didn't really pay a lot of attention to it.

Kevin Gentry (44:15)

What's an example? I mean, I'm thinking, I remember this story that my mom had and my nephew, they would, year after year when he was very young, make Christmas cookies. And we found out ultimately that both of them didn't like making the Christmas cookies, but they thought they were pleasing the other one because they liked making the Christmas cookies. I mean, that's maybe a bad example, but what, what is an example of a collective illusion? That we just keep going along with the crowd when we're actually all wrong?

Todd Rose (44:43)

Fortunately, because at Populism, I think tank, we were probably most famous for what's called private opinion research, which is no one's telling the truth about what they think right now. Like, like 2/3 of Americans are openly self silencing. We're outright mis mis because it's like no one feels like they can be honest. And so we have methods that get around that to get at people's real views on things.

Kevin Gentry (45:06)

Is this why sometimes we'll just, we'll just say voting. Sometimes voting behavior is different than polling. And people like, oh, the polls, their pollsters don't know what they're doing. But in many ways people are not expressing because they think it's the wrong thing.

Todd Rose (45:19)

100 in fact, this is how we got into it, which was after 2016 election. People were like, what just happened? Like, and we knew that the work we care about around paradigm shifts required having an accurate understanding of where people were on important things. So we, we went and found the methodologies that it existed to be able to do this, to start getting at it. And what's funny is we just so happen at the time we would do these private opinion studies and would, would get your insight. And then we started asking, okay, Kevin, what do you think most people would say to this? And so we started getting your perception of the majority. And we kept finding over and over again like, holy cow, like you're spectacularly wrong about the group. Like, because we have the data, right? Like we know where people are. And so it's funny, like right now in America, if you name anything that matters, it's like a coin toss whether you're wrong about your group or not. And I'll tell you, not surprisingly, a lot of political things have collective illusions. There's a lot of pressure, right? Like I'll give you a concrete example on that one. Remember the whole defund the police movement that was just nuts, like defund the police. And you had public opinion polls saying 60% of Democrats said they were in favor of it. Our private opinion data showed it was 9%. We actually worked with Joe Biden when he was president. We got a line in the State of the Union address on this because he was going to endorse. He's like, oh, of course this is what we believe. Like, they don't believe this.

Kevin Gentry (46:49)

You're going to walk a 90 did not believe in.

Todd Rose (46:52)

Only 9% actually want to defund the police. So 91% of Democrats do not privately believe that. Like they didn't. And, but, but they knew there was a right answer. Do you know what I mean? And so, and then you look at cities that went down that rabbit hole like actually started implementing it. Every single one of them has backtracked dramatically because it's been catastrophic. So bad enough that you get bad policies when people actually want them. It's really tragic when you get them when no one really did. And I should probably share it. I'll come back to one that I.

Kevin Gentry (47:23)

Think is this, is this similar. So there's that, that aspect of polling or political behavior too. I'm sure it's a consumer behavior as well. You know this better than I do where intensity means much more than preference. So you can ask people, yeah, I'm all in. I prefer broccoli over string beans. But it doesn't matter. There's not an intensity. But you're not going to vote on it. But it, but, but some issues that a core. It's. There's an intensity. Is that so we.

Todd Rose (47:49)

Yeah, we have methods that is exactly right. So you've got to get trade offs. Right. The intensity on trade offs. But also there's places where you just will flat out lie because you know that your group or you believe that your group has an opinion on this. Right. So you know the. And maybe I just step back for just one second and tell you because it's like how does this happen? How could we be so wrong about groups? And all you need to know is there's two things that go into it. One is every human being has a conformity bias like our. We're hardwired to prefer to be with our groups, not against our groups. Makes tons of sense. It's really good for survival. But here's where it gets funny. The way your brain estimates group consensus, there's no kidding. Your brain takes the shortcut. It assumes that the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority. Now that might have worked back in the day, but if you put it into a social media context, okay, just take what was Twitter on that platform, 80% of all content is generated by only 10% of the users. And those 10% are not remotely representative of the American public. They are extreme on almost every social issue. But you can kind of see the problem if 10% of Americans hold of you but you believe it's 80% unless you're willing to go against your group, you're going to go along to get along. You'll just self silence. You'll say nothing. You might, you might say what you're supposed to say to belong. And that's where we're at right now with two thirds of Americans self silencing. In our latest research on social Pressure. We found every single demographic in the country is openly lying about their views on multiple issues to the point where it distorts what public opinion says the majority believes, which is completely different than what they believe in private. And how does it, how does a society survive if, if under these illusions? And so you know that for me, I'll tell you the one that really, it's crazy. Sure, okay. Politics, it's sort of like this zero sum game. I'm fighting a lot of pressure. But here's where we find a lot of the illusions which is really surprising. The most interesting illusion I've ever found in our research has to do with what people mean by a successful life. And this gets back to your intensity things. So success in life, you can't have everything, right? There's not enough time and money to have everything. So it's about your priorities. So we use a methodology called conjoint which actually does real world complex trade offs to help you really, really, really tease out what your priorities are. And it's almost impossible to game. And then we always do that. What do you think most people would say? Well here's what's wild. Out of 70 some odd trade off priorities one could have for life. So be the richest person you know to having a family, to everything in between. When asked what you think most Americans prioritize for success, we believe that it's about being famous. It's like the number one thing and it's not even close. We think everybody wants to be famous. The next things are they want to be rich. It's all status basically. Turns out in private fame is dead last. Do you know what's, you know, it's in the top 10 for every demographic. The number one trade off priority in America for a successful life is contribution. I want to do things that have a positive impact on other people. That is the number one trade off priority for success in America. That's, that's so heartwarming. But here's the other thing in our latest stuff we found in the top 10 for every single demographic in their view of a successful life was I want to be actively involved in my community. And turns out that is the lowest achieved trade off priority of all top 10 priorities. In fact, more Americans reported being debt free than engaged in their community at the level that they want to be.

Kevin Gentry (51:53)

Well, so let's say you're a responsible political leader or, or maybe in entertainment or media or, or in marketing that you're, you're trying. How do you get to the private opinion that that you know, is, is like this contribution mindset when everything is telling you that no, no, no, that's not where the market is.

Todd Rose (52:17)

So this is why the first thing you have to realize we're living in an era of you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group believes anymore. You can't. Those days are over. Social media is just a fun house of mirrors. And what's even worse is we've been doing a lot of work on foreign governments, bad actors who realize this and are now using bot armies and algorithmic manipulation to generate false consensus to, to do it. We saw this after October 7th where Harvard Harris poll said 60 some odd percent of Gen Z said Hamas was justified. If that were true, that's terrifying. It's not even remotely true. They just believe that this is what their, their peers believe. And it turns out they believe it because China and Iran and Russia were actively manipulating social media platforms to drive a false consensus. So this has been weaponized against us, right?

Kevin Gentry (53:19)

Well, we, they've even almost admit these foreign adversaries have admitted to this kind of behavior whenever we have a crisis, for sure. No, it's gasoline on the flames. We think our neighbors are throwing gasoline in the flames. They're not. They're trying to put out the flames. If these foreign adversaries and so, and.

Todd Rose (53:35)

So into this funhouse of mirrors where it's tearing us apart, it's creating this false polarization we're turning on each other when in reality, in private, we have a shocking amount of commonality in terms of what matters most. Our values, our aspirations. Um, and so what's interesting is, you know, it's the. From an entertainment. What's been interesting is so, so collective illusions are interesting because they're social lies. And if you let them go, they, they're destructive, but they're actually pretty fragile because they're lies. And what, what it turns out what matters most is if you shatter them, you can unlock social change in a hurry. It's pretty remarkable, history has shown us, but it's a completely different strategy. Whereas you're not persuading anyone. And in fact, if you try to persuade people, you actually entrench the illusion. And the single best example of this ever, ever. Do you remember the Stay Not a Drugs campaign? Okay, so that all came about because the government saw a slight increase in marijuana use for teenagers and they were like, okay, we got to do something. Billion dollar campaign. The best ad agencies in the country was actually resounding success from a marketing or advertising standpoint. The Typical American teen saw three ads a day for six years. Unbelievable. Okay, just one, one problem.

Kevin Gentry (55:00)

Oh, everybody's using drugs.

Todd Rose (55:02)

Yeah. Government assumed. The government assumed the reason kids were trying drugs is because they were interested in drugs. But private opinion back then had shown that was not true. Kids were skeptical about drugs. What they wanted was to fit in.

Kevin Gentry (55:16)

Right?

Todd Rose (55:16)

And American teens back then were under this illusion. They believed that most teenagers did drugs. Okay, so into that illusion, you blitz them with a billion dollars of ads, trying to scare them straight. What they took from the ads was, this must be what we're doing, because why would the adults try to get us to stop? And no kidding, research has pretty conclusively shown that that campaign directly caused an increase in drug use for teenagers. So we don't do that. Instead you do what's called social proof. You reveal, you don't persuade. And social proof is just really three things. It's the artifacts of our civilization, the media, the stuff, Right? Just like archaeologists can reverse engineer what a society believed based on the artifacts they created. We do that all the time to discover what we believe. So the TV shows we watch, the books we read, the memes, well, all that stuff matters. And, and we have a lot of effort to actually use that to shatter illusions. But the second two things are people I, I admire. So like athletes, celebrities, they do have a pretty powerful effect when you hear it. But the most important part of social proof is people that are like me, my neighbors, my church. Because when they say it, because look, if Mark Zuckerberg tells me it's okay, I'm like, yeah, but you're like a multi billionaire in Silicon Valley. You don't know my life, you don't know my constraints. You don't go to church where I go, you don't have neighbors like I do. But when my next door neighbor says it, when my pastor says it, it has a massive effect. And why this is important is if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, this is horrible, this is, what are we going to do? Well, this is a good news. We can solve this problem tomorrow. And you have a role to play because everyday people are the ones that shatter illusions for other everyday people. So we have to do two things. And it sounds simple, but it's important. And I promise you, if you, if you play your part, we will shatter these illusions and we will reveal our shared values in a way that allow us to unite as Americans to pursue meaningful lives. Right? We can do that together. And it's two things. One, you Got to find the moral courage to be honest with other people. And I know that that's hard. It really is very hard when you realize that you're.

Kevin Gentry (57:41)

Because you think the crowd is against you.

Todd Rose (57:43)

But just, just trust me that they're probably not. Like you're, you're about to go silent at a time, you know, in deference to a group. But by going silent or lying about your views, you're literally destroying the very group you're trying to belong to.

Kevin Gentry (57:57)

Right.

Todd Rose (57:58)

And there's easy ways you don't have to be a jerk about it. Right. Like even, for example, sowing doubt by saying, so obviously we all know we're voting for this person. You know, I haven't made up my mind yet, like even just in, in introducing uncertainty into conversations provides space for people. But that the second part of that, if you can't find the moral courage yet, because look, sometimes people, their livelihoods are on the line and it's like easier said than done. Fair enough. That we got to find the civic courage to make it safe for other people. To be honest, that is much easier. Groups do not punish you when you stand up to allow people to say what they think. That's not how that works. So you can do that. You can make space for other people to be honest, make it, make them feel comfortable that they can tell you the truth. That's the stuff we can do. And I'm telling you right now, collective illusions, I think are the biggest invisible threat to America that there exists, that exists right now. And that's the bad news. The good news is it's all within our power to do something about it.

Kevin Gentry (58:57)

Indeed. By the way, you know, the social psychologist Robert Cialdini, who did all the work on the science of persuasion and influence and stuff, has so much on social proof and liking and similarity. I've got to get him on this podcast so he can continue your conversation about this. But, but, but, Todd, give us a little bit more hope in areas like education where, you know, our educational system in the United States is failing terribly. Is there an opportunity to utilize what you're. You've discovered in collective illusions to, to, to. Maybe it's individualized education. What are some ways that we can shake this up?

Todd Rose (59:34)

That's what was fascinating. If you would have asked me five or six years ago, what institution is never going to change, I would have said like K12 education. It's, it's, it's a government run monopoly that has no, like, it's just, it's not. I thought there's just no way. What a waste of. So many people have died on that hill. Like, forget it. But, but before the pandemic, we, we were deploying our methodologies. So we've studied everything from the kind of lives people want to live, the kind of country we want to live in, and then we study what people want out of our key institutions using these private opinion methodologies. We started seeing something changing in private about people's trade off priorities. And it was remarkable. Like we predicted, you know, publicly in advance the collapse of college as the goal of K12 six years ago. And it was. Everything happens in private before it happens in public. The other thing that changed pretty dramatically. And it's, it's solidified this standardized system we have. Nobody wants it. They don't want it. They, they. The thing that Americans have in common is we believe that every person has potential. We believe that their uniqueness matters. We believe that education should be about discovering and developing potential rather than sorting it. We believe in mastery as an approach instead of one size fits all standardized assessments. We believe in individualized education, for lack of a better term. Americans don't want a better mousetrap when it comes to education. They want something different, not just better. And that is true of every demographic group. Okay. However, when you ask them what do they think most Americans believe, they think most Americans are perfectly happy with the existing system. A one size fits all factory model with standardized test as the metrics and college as the goal. And nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, college forever used to be one of the big three indicators of the American dream. And just recently in some of our research, we found for the first time ever, that's plummeted. It is now a bottom quartile priority for the American dream. In fact, getting a certificate in a skilled labor now ranks higher in their view of success in the American dream than a college diploma. This is America now. It's amazing. So here we are, right? So what does it take? Right? You have two obstacles that you have to overcome. The first is this social obstacle. Listen, if I think everybody else is happy with this thing, I personally can't change it myself. So if I think everyone else is fine, what a waste of time for me to try to tilt it that windmill. And I don't want to be the weirdo in my neighborhood pulling my kid out of school. If I think everybody else thinks it's fine and they're like, you're ruining public education. So creating the social proof that that makes sure everybody understands what we believe. We believe is the first critical thing. And we've got a lot of efforts with entertainment and other things to try to break these illusions. But the second thing is, is I need the exemplars. I need to know. So if it's not that, what is it? Like, what am I going for? What is this individualized education? Like, if I can't point to something, it doesn't matter. And so, you know, you and I both know we're part of a pretty big effort with a lot of folks to try to feed those exemplars so that any family anywhere in the country has access to individualized education. And if as soon as you get those two things together, this thing is going to change, I promise you, I would bet every dollar I have that we are on the cusp of a radical transformation of education in America.

Kevin Gentry (63:18)

Wow, what an opportunity. Hal, that's very encouraging. Thank you, Todd. So, okay, we got to wrap this up. By the way, there's all this chatter now, but high agency versus low agency is. I don't know whether that touches on this, but is high agency this, this thing about like, look, here's the opportunity.

Todd Rose (63:34)

Go challenge it, go challenge it. So I actually think that this is probably the most important. Like we're leaving an era. This kind of combines all the work I've cared about. We've lived actually in a pretty paternalistic societies ever since Frederick Taylor and scientific management, right? Where Frederick Taylor literally said, without even blushing in his book, in the past, people were first. In the future, the system has to be first. And. And what an inversion of democracy. What an inversion of, of our founding principles of America.

Kevin Gentry (64:04)

No, and we accepted that.

Todd Rose (64:05)

And we accepted it because you know what? Efficiency did give us more stuff. But we're kind of fed up with the stuff because the stuff doesn't bring us fulfillment, it doesn't give us meaning and purpose. You need enough stuff to be able to pursue the things that give you meaning and purpose. And we want that now. And I think the most important ingredient here, and this is something our education system has to be able to deliver on. And as parents, we have to promote this, is this concept of high agency because we have been used to being low agency individuals in a society where the system does things to us and for us, right? But we don't want that anymore. We want control of our lives. But we got to know what that means. And when people don't intentionally develop high agency, then they can't have self efficacy. And if you can't have self efficacy there's no self actualization. So this is the critical starting point. But it's very important that we, we own that and understand the importance of high agency in the future of our society as Americans.

Kevin Gentry (65:06)

Wow. So you've got this work at Populous, you're involved with Stand Together. Obviously that's how we know each other. If someone wants to, to learn more about what you're doing, I mean, they can, they can read Dark Horse and End of Average and Collective Illusions, but what's another place they can go to?

Todd Rose (65:23)

So you can follow all of our research@policist.org so everything we do is public. You'll, you'll get to know a lot of our methodologies and some of the insights if you want to better understand who we are as Americans. I'm pretty proud of, we have more private opinion data on the American public than any organization. So check that out. Obviously, any social media stuff, you can, you can look me up, but yeah. And I hope you enjoy the books. I'm really proud of them.

Kevin Gentry (65:48)

Awesome. Well, our friend Brian Hook said that you've recently said that you just want to focus on the big things. This is the Going Big podcast. Tell us a little bit more about what that means.

Todd Rose (66:01)

Well, you know, not to make it a little too sad part, but I came around to this. You know, I recently, like, my wife of 29 years passed away just a couple of years ago. That was, you know, it's, it's, it leads to a lot of soul searching and reflection about what's the point of life. Like, you know, you know, I just turned 50 and I'm, you know, and I think, you know, so much of it, we, we end up doing small things out of fear, out of maybe we don't believe that we're, you know, somebody else will do it. I've lived enough in my life and I can testify to the fact that it's not true. And look, I'm not saying don't care about things like family and faith and things like those are, those are big things to me. But when I think about the work that I do, I promised myself that I would only do big things. And by that I mean the things I care about and the things that if they succeed, have the ability to transform, not just Tinker. And that, that look, that, that means I might fail more than I succeed. But boy, listen, I promise you, you wake up every day knowing that you are, you are pursuing transformative things. And it just, it keeps me going. And I, I, I couldn't be happier about it.

Kevin Gentry (67:18)

That's awesome. You know, some friends of mine and I were talking recently and we realized that we tended to measure what we thought was achievement by how hard we were working, how many hours and things like that. Another, I guess, collective illusion. We're like, this is ridiculous, you know, but. But this has nothing to do with contribution.

Todd Rose (67:39)

No, no, think about it. It's actually a weird sort of parallel to the sort of Marxist idea of labor theory of value.

Kevin Gentry (67:47)

Yeah. Why just shovel? Just shovel dirt, use spoons.

Todd Rose (67:50)

Something's worth the amount of labor it took to do that. That's ridiculous, right? It's worth what something will be value for. Similarly, you're like, well, I must be achieving something because I'm working a lot of hours. And you're like, listen, I promise you, if you're passionate, you're gonna put a lot of time in. But time is not the measure of it. The contribution is the measure of it.

Kevin Gentry (68:10)

Well, Todd, okay, close us out on just the final advice you would give to our listeners today who are really intrigued by what you're saying or really motivated and inspired. How should we now think about living our lives?

Todd Rose (68:25)

I would say I don't want to give you a ice, but I write books for a living, so. Look, I actually think that the recipe is deceptively simple and it is the ability to wed two things simultaneously. The one on the one hand is the fulfillment side, right? Do things that are aligned to what you're passionate about and that aligned your micro motives. Right? None of this like self sacrifice for the greater good alone. No, listen, you need to do things that matter to you. But that's one half of the equation because the other half is the contribution side. We really do find meaning in our lives by contributing the lives of other people. That is about as perfect a description of what it means to live a good life as possible. If you marry the pursuit of fulfillment with a contribution orientation, you will live a great life, I promise you. But if you contribute without it being fulfilling, you risk self sacrifice, right? And at the end it feels like, well, wait a minute, I'm not getting meaning. I might be contributing, but I don't feel meaning. If you pursue fulfillment without contribution, it can descend into selfishness, and that's a dead end too. You put those two things together, you get meaning, you get purpose, you get a great life.

Kevin Gentry (69:42)

Todd Rose, what a great pleasure to be with you. As always. I'm going to have to have you back. You've got me thinking in so many different directions. Ladies and gentlemen. Check out Populous. Check out these books. Just check out Todd Rose. This is. Thank you Todd.

Todd Rose (69:55)

It's great to be with you, my friend.

Kevin Gentry (69:57)

Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates as our website goingbigpodcast.com remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing, and above all, keep Going Big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.