← Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Going Big! with Kevin Gentry
Words That Move the World: Tim Kersten on Leading with Vision, Creativity, and Courage
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- [00:01]
Fred
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- [00:31]
Tim Kirsten
And then not everybody can stand on top of a proverbial Mount Everest as a leader. But we all have spheres in which we can and lead. And it may be as simple as leading your own children into lives of integrity and faith and so forth. It may be as a store manager, it may be as a mayor. It may be there are all sorts of kinds of leaders leadership opportunities and the key is to know who you are, know who you believe in, where you're going and to and to bring people with you, rally them to your own heart and your own mind. That is noble and good.
- [01:20]
Kevin Gentry
Welcome to the Going Big Podcast. I'm your host Kevin Gentry and this is the place where we celebrate bold moves and big eyes ideas. Each week I sit down with inspiring leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers who are making a significant impact in their careers and in their communities. Whether you're looking to level up your leadership, pursue your passion, or just get inspired to take your next big leap, this is where those stories come to light. Now if you're listening on iTunes, YouTube or anywhere else you tune into podcasts, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you'll never miss an episode. Now let's dive in to what it means to truly go big. Greetings ladies and gentlemen. I'm Kevin Gentry, your host of the Going Big podcast. And on today's episode we have a great trailblazer from the non profit world. Someone who has led some extraordinary innovative fundraising campaigns over the years that have transformed a lot of results for a lot of organizations, a lot of great causes. Tim Kirsten is the chairman and CEO of RKD Group. He has been for over 40 years involved in nonprofit direct response, fundraising and marketing. RKD Group is, as I say, America's largest with over 600 employees. Tim is well known for his creative talent and coming up with just really just amazing messaging that captures the attention of people then organizing fundraising campaigns that are turn very effective in helping organizations like the Smithsonian Institution, the Salvation Army, Covenant House, the American Red Cross raise hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. So he in in a way is just go big through and through. Tim, it's great to have you on today. Thanks for joining us Kevin.
- [03:14]
Tim Kirsten
Thank you so much. I appreciate your kind words. I have to give a lot of credit to my team at my company that does brilliant work as, as my motto of hire people who are smarter than I am and get out of their way. So it's a great team effort. Lots of really smart people doing great work for some terrific organizations. And so I'm grateful for the opportunity to be their leader and to just want to make sure they get due credit.
- [03:44]
Kevin Gentry
Well, I am not surprised at all that you would respond in that way. In fact, that was a big attraction for me wanting to have you on the episode today because your whole approach to leadership is also very well known. We can look at the fundraising and marketing results but in order to achieve those results, you're, you're awesome to say, you know, you can't do it without that team. That, that puts it all into place. So Tim, if you would 40 years in this business, you're now running the, the biggest agency. How in the world did you decide to get involved in nonprofit direct response? And was there a particular go big moment that made you think about this?
- [04:27]
Tim Kirsten
That's a great question. Actually I think it's been 40, 48 years that I've actually been in, in non profit. I, I actually yeah, time flies, doesn't it? I, I, I got a degree or was obtaining a degree from California State University of Fullerton which had a world class advertising major at the time that I was in school in the 70s, late 70s and I was an advertising major and I, I wanted to go to Madison Avenue. My dream job was, you know, selling consumer packaged goods in, in sort of that classic, you know, I mentioned my, my motto about hiring people smarter than me and getting out of their way that that's what David Ogilvy said. Somebody asked him how he built such a great agency and he said hires people who are smarter than I am and leave them in his, his Welsh leave them to get on with it. Can' accent. But and so, but I was actually inspired by Professor, I'll mention him by name in the business school at Cal State Fullerton, a different school. Dr. Paul Hugstad. And I took some marketing classes for him and his specialty was actually marketing for nonprofit organizations. I think he had gotten his PhD thesis on that and I had some courses with him and because of my personal background and so forth, my father having been a minister and my familiarity shared with non profit organizations, I was really stirred by the opportunity to go into the non profit sector and help them do a lot better job marketing and themselves and fundraising and in fact, bringing business disciplines, traditional business disciplines into the nonprofit world and running the nonprofit like a business. And so I was redirected while I was in college. In fact, I wrote my senior thesis on marketing for nonprofit organizations. So I decided, decided when I was very young in college to go into this space. And I was inspired by one other person I'll mention because my life would not be the same without him, a man named Russ Reed, who was the founder of what was the Russ Reed Company, which was acquired by Omnicom a number of years ago, 20 years ago probably, or maybe a little more. And Russ was my role model for the kind of leader I wanted to be and doing the kind of work I wanted to do, to do. So I decided in college that I wanted to be like Russ and grateful that I had the opportunity to actually meet him, spend some time with him. But he inspired me before I ever met him. It was a magazine article that I read that inspired me to, to do what he did. So those two people, Dr. Hugstad and Russ Reed, get enormous credit for inspiring a 21 year old kid to end up in this spot.
- [07:31]
Kevin Gentry
Well, that's awesome, Tim, because you know, so often in these conversations, the role of mentors and role models comes up. And you mentioned David Ogilvy, who certainly is another example, someone who thought big, went big, ultimately Ogilvy and Mather, that, you know, just, just a giant. But so was Russ Reed. How important are these kinds of people, in your judgment, for any of us to think about and going big?
- [08:00]
Tim Kirsten
Well, that's, that's a great question, Kevin. Not just those two individuals, but anyone that you find a person in their journey finds that inspires them and challenges them to think beyond the traditional kind of categories and so forth, and is personally inspirational to them, not just in a dry academic sense, but this person has integrity, has character, has values that I want to emulate. And so a lot of my, my adult life has been spent in reading biographies of, of great men and women. And I have, you can't see my bookshelf, but it's heavy laden right over here and with all sorts of biographies. And so I, I read a number of them on an ongoing basis. And so we all, I, I believe that leaders need to approach life and whatever they're called to, and I feel called to this with a, a heavy dose of humility, knowing that we stand on the shoulders of giants, we learn from those who go before us, and we depend upon those around us. To help us succeed. And there are. I have a tendency to want to be a lone ranger, but, and I was in terms for many years. I spent almost 25 years as an independent consultant and creative person writing direct mail packages and camp direct mail campaigns and so forth for 25 years of my career. But I was always part of a team and even though I was an individual contributor, I learned from and grew as a result of proximity to really, really smart people. So just trying to gather wisdom as I rolled through life like moss. Now that, that's a different analogy also.
- [09:50]
Kevin Gentry
Well, this is, this is great. So Tim, you mentioned that famous Sir Isaac Newton quote that I can see farther when I stand on the shoulders of giants. That's a, that's another thing I so often hear in terms of the wisdom from people who have gone big. I want to go into your start in the creative space, but before that to your reference about biographies. Just off the top of your head, who are some other greats in history who've inspired you in some way? Maybe five or six, whatever just come to mind.
- [10:22]
Tim Kirsten
Yeah. And, and I, I might glance up on my bookshelf here.
- [10:25]
Kevin Gentry
That's fine. Yeah.
- [10:26]
Tim Kirsten
You know, and I'm going to reference a very controversial figure early on here. I just finished the first volume of Neil Ferguson's biography of Henry Kissinger. And I, I know that Henry Kissinger was a, was a very controversial person nonetheless. The one, Neil Ferguson's a brilliant writer. Number two, Kissinger is a larger than life figure and he wasn't a leader in the way that a president is a leader, but his, his grasp of history. I think having a knowledge of history, knowing our place in history and knowing that history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes, you know, those kinds of things. And I'm, you know, there are various schools of historical thought like impersonal forces. I'm very much a, a great man subscribed to the, the great man theory of history that great men and women like Margaret Thatcher and others who stand athwart history as it were and, and take actions and speak words because rhetor the ability to communicate is so vital to effective leadership. They stand authority and they, they bend the world to their will, as it were, through the force of their personality, the strength of their ideas and their ability to communicate those. And so certainly Kissinger was, was one of those and he's on my mind because I, I read him his, his biography the first half of his life just recently. Winston Churchill certainly is, is. I have many of his books on here. And have, you know, visited his, his birthplace and so forth. Always admired it. Love. Because I'm a creative guy. I'm a writer and, you know, I can string words together. I, I have deep admiration and respect for people who can communicate in a compelling way. Ronald Reagan, have a number of his books or books about him here. His, his collected speeches and so forth. The great communicator and leader who cast a vision that people and rally around. And that is so much of what leadership is about. Leadership isn't about tactics. It is about a vision and it is about a direction and it's about ideals and using the power of rhetoric to, to articulate that to people that whatever the constituency that needs to hear that, in some cases, this entire country, Churchill's case, the Western world against Nazi Nazism and Hitler. Ronald Reagan was a world historical leader as well. And so, you know, Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher. Certainly you can tell what era I'm from. Margaret.
- [13:20]
Kevin Gentry
Good choices there. Tim.
- [13:21]
Tim Kirsten
Yeah. George Washington. One of my goals in life is to read. Sorry, I'm looking at my bookshelf up here. Read, read one biography of each president in the United States.
- [13:32]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, wow.
- [13:34]
Tim Kirsten
You know, it's, it's kind of slow going. You know, I've, I've read George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, more, the modern ones, from George Bush to, to Ronald Reagan to, you know, Calvin Coolidge. I, I really admire him as a leader who had a very clear vision of what government should and should not be doing and was unafraid to, to take a stand on that. Woodrow Wilson was, Was a leader of a different kind that I. Is not worth emulating in my. I mean, some. We learn a lot, I have from negative examples, and I don't want to go negative here because that, that's not the point. But you, you can observe what was Leo Derocher said. You can observe a lot just by looking. Well, you, you look at some people's lives in the way they lead, and it's not worth emulating. And so both are useful. I choose for the most part to look at, read about, read the works of great leaders in world. World history. All right, well, you, you're. You're.
- [14:39]
Kevin Gentry
My gosh, you're giving me so much stuff to follow up on. And I want to get into where you started in writing. Persuasive copy and messaging. But before that, you know, it's been said that if you don't identify a philosophy of success, then you otherwise are subject to a philosophy of failure. Do you ascribe to that? Did you Lay out a particular vision for yourself. You mentioned vision. Did what, what, what was important to you to kind of drive forward?
- [15:12]
Tim Kirsten
Well, I am rather driven, so that's a, that's a good word that. So I really have to sort of divide my career in, in, in two. Two significant from. You know, I got out of college, worked for a small advertising agency. My first week on the job, my. My boss told me I had to write a fundraising letter for a rescue mission client. And I had never written a fundraising letter before I knew they existed, but I was a writer. I had been editor of my college paper and been writing for many years since I was, as I've joked, I've been writing, putting ink on paper, getting it out to an audience since I was 15 years old. So that's. So I guess my career is actually long than I initially said. But anyway, so the, the first, first part of my career until I was 57 years old, actually the majority of my career was, was spent developing creative concepts and then writing copy for a wide range of nonprofit organizations. You mentioned Smithsonian, American Red Cross, Salvation army, and many dozens and dozens of those. And so my goal was to be the very best direct mail copywriter. That's what it was in those days. This was. Much of it was pre Internet. And I wanted to be really, really good at what I did and get great results and be frankly be recognized as one of the best, if not the best in the, in the country. I also wanted to actually help my biggest goal. This is going to sound interesting maybe to your audience, and that is, I always wanted to, to make sure the person that I reported to, in whatever relationship, somebody who hired me to develop a campaign, I wanted to make them successful. And when I submitted a manuscript to them, my, my hope and what I worked toward was that they wouldn't have to make one edit on my copy. Okay. And, and so I just drove myself to perfection. And obviously everything got edited because every editor needs, every writer needs an. But my goal was to make their job so easy that they wouldn't have to touch my stuff now. They did like I said, but that was, that was my initial goal. And then, so I was really blessed with, with outrageous success and lots of awards and accolades and things like that. And then I got a call in the summer of 2011 by someone who had an agency that did direct response fundraising and he wanted to retire. And I hadn't talked to him for 17 years, but he had watched my career and basically he said, I want to retire here. He threw me the Keys and said, take over the, the company and lead it.
- [18:10]
Kevin Gentry
Well, okay, that's this, this is where it really gets so interesting. And your leadership of our KD group is, is extraordinary. So that in and of itself is worthy of a going big episode. But I want to, to dig in a little bit more to these foundational elements. In fact, Tim, you and I actually worked together on a project in the early 1990s for the leadership Institute. You were the writer, the copywriter. You wrote some great stuff. But just help explain sort of that. And I love the fact that you wanted to be the best at that and to win some awards and you've won many, many Direct Marketing Association John Caples awards. But tell us a little bit more about the writing and how you saw that as your own personal going big.
- [19:01]
Tim Kirsten
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. Well, one, my father who left us six years ago told, told me, tim, never ever be average. Never ever be average. And so there was always this voice inside me. And he was a gentle man, full of grace, but he was so he didn't, you know, pounded into me. He just continually reminded me to, to, you know, think big in his own way. But when, when a father tells the son, don't be average, you just tell him to go big. That's how I interpret it. So the, as I, as I, so I, I'm a student of rhetoric in how people write. And I collected back in, back in the day, I collected thousands of direct mail packages. I got on could and I had an old male. I'm looking over here because of my former office. I had these, these mail cubbies full of direct mail packages. So I studied, study direct mail. And so I, I, I learned the techniques. And so I'm, I'm going to explain. Sorry, this is, I, I'm struggling a little bit because the, how you, you go about capturing attention in persuading is such a fascinating almost a mystery.
- [20:25]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, absolutely. And it's again, poorly understood.
- [20:28]
Tim Kirsten
Yeah. And in one of. I think today too much emphasis is put on say, technique and visual displays. So. I hate PowerPoint presentations. Okay. Because they're a crutch for people who don't want to put. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. They, they can be a crutch for people who don't want to put in the really, really hard work of crafting a persuasive message.
- [20:57]
Kevin Gentry
I think that's fair. That's a good insight. I agree with you.
- [21:00]
Tim Kirsten
My ideal of a public speaker. And there's an analogy to a writer here is the ability to step onto an empty stage with no lectern, no notes, just the glare of the spotlight, and to speak in such a way that you have the audience in the palm of your hand. Okay, that's power. That is incredible power. Well, there's a sense in which sitting alone at my screen writing copy, it's. It's very similar to that where you have to have a. A message, an opening salvo, as it were, an opening statement that. That it pulls people in. And then you have to construct your persuasive argument in such a way that you pull them all the way through to the end and persuade them to take action. I have always found that my entire career, the greatest challenge in my business, and I've been doing this for 48 years, and the thought that I could interrupt somebody's day, as it were, in a mailing envelope that ends up on their desk, or they go to their. Their post box, they take it out, they open it up, and they're so captured by it that they can't stop reading. And then they're moved to act. I don't know. For me, that was always what drove me to excellence because I think it's such a fascinating power to be able to do that.
- [22:30]
Kevin Gentry
So that's great. And that's. That's even more challenging than ever before. As you know, we're now inundated with communications 27, trying to get our attention to kind of cut through that clutter. It's tougher and tougher.
- [22:43]
Tim Kirsten
Well, there's no question about it. And there's also. In the direct mail world, I don't know how many of your. Your listeners and viewers are, are. Are deeply embedded in. In that world. But in nonprofit fundraising, there's such heavy use of premiums, you know, of mailing envelopes comes along, and it's got name and address labels and, and those kinds of things. And that can be a crutch, as it were, for capturing people's attention. And then they sort of the. The rule of reciprocity. Oh, somebody gave me something, then I'm going to give them a gift back. And I love the. That's fine, and, and that's necessary in some cases. But the purist in me says, how about just this unbelievable article or, or writing letter that. That captures people and maybe makes them cry, makes them want to get a checkbook out. And then in the online fundraising, there's all, you know, visual stimulation and so forth, and you're not really doing much persuasion Online, it's more capturing people who are already with you, which is an element in direct mail as well, in getting them to take action. So it's a different dynamic. But I'm, I'm kind of old school. I, I just love the power of, of language in, in peer persuasion.
- [24:04]
Kevin Gentry
Well, what's one of the boldest causes, efforts, initiatives that you were ever a part of? And something that really GR people's attention.
- [24:14]
Tim Kirsten
Oh my goodness, that is fascinating. I'm gonna have to pause there. There are a couple that are really, really different. One, one is sad, a very sad one. I was approached by some guys who had an agency and they had been approached by the family of Ron Goldman, who was, you know, died at the same time as O.J. simpson's wife in that horrible attack, which captured the America's attention, if not the world's, back in the 90s and the. There was an outpouring of response from the general public to the Goldman family. It's interesting how a perceived injustice is a tremendous motivator for people to become involved. We just have this innate, innate need to right the wrongs of our world. And so I was actually asked to develop a campaign and do all the writing over the signatures of the entire Goldman family. Now normally you only write something over one signature, maybe two co founders of an organization. Here was the whole family. And so I had to take on the very difficult challenge of crafting direct mail. This is pre Internet direct mail packages to raise money for the civil trial against O.J. simpson. That was one of the most fascinating assignments I've ever had. And it was outrageously successful and it was a big challenge. So that was sad. But from a professional standpoint, a really fascinating exercise. And there are so many know, I think of a project I was hired for years ago. We all remember, well, those of us who are old enough, the restoration of the Statue of Liberty. Back with Lee Iacocca, the chairman of Chrysler, who was the head of the campaign to restore the Statue of Liberty in Ellis island, or as a part of Ellis island that was never restored. And so a public partner, public, public private partnership was developed between the state of New Jersey and a private entity to actually raise money to restore the forgotten backside of Ellis island, which was the hospital and the laundry and some other places are very significant in the history of, of immigration into this country. And so crafting that package, which is really so much about the story of America and, and the immigrant experience, I don't know, I. That one still resonates with me. In fact, Just thinking about it the other day, I need to find that package that was fascinating. Those are two sort of polar opposites. There are more.
- [27:17]
Kevin Gentry
You know, it's one of the things I love about Direct response is it just empowers people to feel like they can make a difference. And they are. And you know, you hear about these massive mega gifts that do X, Y and Z, but really it's, it's a $10 contribution from Mrs. Jones and Scottsbluff, Nebraska combined with that of others that can really change the world. What for a cause or an organization? What separates those who can and do truly go big from those that don't?
- [27:50]
Tim Kirsten
Well, boy, that, that's really interesting. There are a couple of factors, one of which is, and I'm going to start with the, the easy one which is also hard to achieve is obtaining riding the wave of, of some pre existing or ongoing publicity about something. So one of the, the biggest campaign that I was ever involved in with my friend Tom Gaffney who's, who was at Epsilon Data Management at the time, this is in the late 80s, maybe 86, 87 Covenant House in New York City had acquired a, a building to expand their facilities and to serve homeless young people. And Mayor Ed Koch at the time said no, I, I know you acquired it, but I need it for the city. And, and they got. So this, this priest and the, and the big city mayor got into a tussle over who's going to, who's going to buy the building. Well, Tom Gaffey and I worked together via Epsilon to do a, a fundraising campaign, direct mail in those days to raise the money to buy the building. And it all coincided with huge headlines in the New York Post about this fight between this, this priest and the mayor. And we mailed in the midst of that and that was the biggest individual campaign. I think we raised 25, $26 million in, in a matter of weeks.
- [29:25]
Kevin Gentry
That's still an historic effort that's widely talked about still today in many marketing circles.
- [29:30]
Tim Kirsten
Yeah, so it received all sorts of awards publicity in riding the wave of, of something that's happening in the press is a really important factor. Now we can't or orchestrate that. I think some organizations can, I think some public policy outfits in, in the Beltway in D.C. do gin up issues that, that get on the news and so forth. I, I think it's a little better to have naturally occurring issues as well. But that's, that's another discussion. So I think the other thing, one of the other things in going Big is having the personality of the head of the organization. We come back to leadership again with a powerful message in the. That leader is able to articulate the needs of the cause in such a way that he or she rallies folks around them. And so that's a really important ingredient which is why to going big and being very successful. And one of the problems with, with direct response fundraising these days, in my opinion, there's not enough of that personality is especially with, with big institutions and so forth. And it becomes almost a sort of institutional message like a big brand and you know, they, they raise money and large organizations. But I, I still believe in the power of personality. And if an, if a non profit organization has a leader who's comfortable letting a big personality out there to persuade people, that's a way to go big. And, and I don't want to mention names, I'm not going to be critical of anything. It's just there, there is, I have seen fear take over organizations and say no, he can't or I would never say that or I don't want to be out there.
- [31:34]
Kevin Gentry
Yeah, that was my next question. My follow up question to that is, is the, the. Well, first of all, what you're saying sounds like even your earlier point the difference between being a leader and being a manager.
- [31:48]
Tim Kirsten
Well, yeah, because leaders, one absolute characteristic of an effective leader who goes big is fearlessness. Great leaders are bold, great leaders are not afraid. Great leaders get out ahead of the pack. Great leaders take the arrows and so forth. And so the fear of going big holds people back. And look, it's, I'm not being critical of anybody. Leadership is hard. You have to have thick skin. But you also have to love people. That's one of my rules of leadership is you have to love the people that you're with and inspire them on the journey. But I think that that is a difficult thing to attain in leaders is that boldness of a willingness to stand up and say, say we're, we're, we're, we're going there. Come with me.
- [32:49]
Kevin Gentry
Well, let me ask you two questions about that. And I think it almost all comes together for direct response fundraising and marketing leadership. I, I could be wrong. You're, you're being very nice. I tend to think that unfortunately still today there are too many people that are attracted to the nonprofit world because it's not about risk taking. There's a sense of sort of safety and security and you know, the business world, it's kind of cutthroat. And I don't want to be a part of that. I just want to go work for this good cause. And that affects the idea of going big to solve a problem. You got this big problem. But we got to, we got to do things differently. We've got to innovate. We've got to take some risks if we're going to make a difference.
- [33:33]
Tim Kirsten
Right.
- [33:34]
Kevin Gentry
Do you think I'm on the right track here or am I being a little too harsh?
- [33:37]
Tim Kirsten
I think you're on the right track, Kevin, but I'll, I'll say that with a caveat, okay? And this is a real, a real struggle. We have, have fantastic clients, really, really fortunate to work with. With them. We have, I don't know, 500, 6, 400 clients, 4 to 500 clients, I guess it is, and terrific, dedicated people. And. But there is a. And we hear a lot. We need more innovation. And I agree, we do, because there are not only problems to solve in the world that need to be. We need to raise money to solve them. But there's problems with how we do direct response fundraising because the number of donors in America are shrinking. There are millions fewer donors today who respond to those direct mail packages or online than there have been before. And we've saw a drop off after Covid, and we saw a drop off in the financial crisis before in 2008, 2009. So we have fewer people who are contributing. And so, so we can't keep doing the same thing over and over again because it's not working as well as it used to. So, okay, then what are we going to do? Well, we need to go big. We need some new innovative thing. The problem. I use problem advisably there, that word is this business is a science. It's an art and a science. I represent more the art side than the science. But I run a company and it's very scientific, scientific. And so people say, hey, let's do this. And I go, because we need to innovate, we need to go big. And I go, okay, well, let's test it first, shall we? Because you can, you can't afford to just roll big with some big new idea.
- [35:30]
Kevin Gentry
Which is the great benefit of direct response is you can test it.
- [35:33]
Tim Kirsten
You can test it. And the, the challenge is, is that most new big ideas don't work work. And I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just saying that I remember one time, years ago, 20 years ago, I was tasked with developing a whole range of new creative approaches for a very well known national charity that I won't mention and we tested, I don't know, 15 or 16 different approaches in the mail. None of them work. They all fail. And we went, had to go back to the boring old control package. So it's like new businesses. Somebody launches a new business in the local mall or whatever, there's about an 80% chance it won't be there two years from now. So that's not a criticism. It's just a fact of life. And so going big in pursuit of something big is very hard to do because there are entrenched ways of doing big, doing it. People are habituated to responding in particular ways. You have demographic shifts, you have values shifts. I think a lot of the shift in the struggle in the nonprofit sector is a cultural shift of older people, more religious are fading off into the sunset and younger people coming up are less religious. And we know from Albert Brooks book on who really Cares, it's really that cohort of Americans that are the most generous. And so.
- [37:01]
Kevin Gentry
Well, let me ask you two, two other related questions on this point, I think. So the flip side of risk taking, I mean, is back to leadership, in that I always hear people, you know, the world is hungry for leadership. They're looking for leaders. Is that an encouragement to the leaders of the nonprofit organizations that you work with? I mean, does some organizations stand out because they have more visionary leaders? You know, as the Bible says in Proverbs that without a vision, the people will perish. I mean, is that, is that a big deal?
- [37:37]
Tim Kirsten
I think there are some amazing leaders at the regional and local level, individual leaders. And I'm not taking anything away from any of our clients. I just want to be real clear in terms of we work with large national organizations and so forth, and they're very, very affected people at the top of those organizations. But it's, it's a little. With the competition out there, it. I think it can be more difficult for an individual to stand out head and shoulders above a large, large nonprofit brand, as it were, that come by definition. They don't want it to hinge on the identity of one person. I. We work with a lot of regional, in, in local, through cooperative kind of direct mail and digital fundraising programs. We work with rescue missions, for instance, 50 some rescue missions. And some of these rescue mission leaders in cities and towns from LA to New York and elsewhere, the head of that organization will be very visible in their community, on the media all the time and so forth, and inspiring people to contribute to the cause. So they are out there, but like so much in America, you know, America is, is a big country, but when you get down to the grassroots, you see volunteers and other people at the grassroots roots level in small and mid sized towns and cities all across America. It's one of the things that makes America great. That de Tocqueville said in, in his, in his work in the earliest, early 19th century, his observations about democracy. America is these voluntary organizations and that's where a lot of heroes hang out, are leaders indeed.
- [39:33]
Kevin Gentry
And I, I, I hear that so much from different people as well. And. All right. One more related question to that is that engagement fundraising has been sort of all the rage for a while, that the more you engage with the donor, the more generous they become. But really said more maybe appropriately is the more you listen and gain from the special talents that your don have, just beyond their financial gifts or other gifts. Obviously the more interested they're going to be and, and the more you can drive forward. But another element of risk in, among nonprofit leaders is the unwillingness to kind of let go and let that happen. Am I wrong there or do you think that's an issue?
- [40:22]
Tim Kirsten
That's, that's fascinating and I've seen that, so I've seen it in areas and there is risk. There's no question about it because, because the fear is losing control of the brand or the narrative, however you want to define it in the public. So a leader has to have people that he or she can really trust to entrust those messages to. So there's risk, but there's great opportunity with respect to engagement in other kind of more face to face, there's simply no question. I'll go back to rescue missions again, which I, I've spent many, many years serving rescue missions in various capacities. The old adage, if we get a donor to the mission, their life is never the same and they will and nothing is better designed to cement the relationship and stimulate further giving. And so yeah, engagement is super important. And the thing is that I think nonprofits need to remember that it's all about the donors. It's always all about the donors and about their needs in their own hungers. And, and I, I will tell you, when I took over, this is, I'm going to veer a little bit here, Kevin, so stop. You go right ahead.
- [41:49]
Kevin Gentry
No, no, go, keep going.
- [41:50]
Tim Kirsten
This is, this is part of the big going, big story. I got a call in the summer of 2011 to come take over a company here in Texas that was struggling. That company doesn't exist. The, the, I took the job and started November 1st of 2011. And I, I, I wanted to be very thoughtful and I hadn't planned on doing this. I was just cruising along in life and got a phone call and I, and I was asked by the founder to come take over so he, he could retire. And I thought, yeah, sure, what the heck, I'll try it. But I, I, I, I, I wanted to establish the company, the new company, on a, on a, on a philosophical base that really could endure. It made a lot of sense. And so I thought about why we do what we do as a company. And so many agencies out there, if you go to their website and it'll say something, I'll simplify. You know, we raise money for the world's greatest nonprof organizations or we do direct mail or whatever. So it's a focus on the, what they do. And we, I think most of your listeners have heard of Simon Sinek and, you know, finding your why and all that. I don't want to necessarily claim that I discovered that principle before Simon Sinek, but I didn't know that much about him at the time. But what I did was I sat down, I said, why do we exist as an organization? And I was inspired by Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning.
- [43:28]
Kevin Gentry
A great book. Oh, what a great book.
- [43:31]
Tim Kirsten
An amazing book. And out of the study of that book, and I think one of the things that a leader has to do is, has to really understand human nature, what makes people tick. Because if you can't understand human nature, you're not going to be able to lead them. But the core principle out of Viktor Frankl's book is that people need meaning and significance in their lives and if they don't have it, they don't have an avenue to pursue it. They're going to die. And which is what happened in prison camp. So I wrote a statement of mission and purpose for my company and I said, and it's unlike any of our competitors, it says RKD Group exists to help people find meaning and significance in their lives by connecting them as donors or members with organizations that are working to make the world more humane, just and compassionate. And notice there's nothing in there about us being an ad agency that does direct response. We exist to help people, the donor, find meaning and significance in their lives by connecting them. I've likened us as a dating service.
- [44:42]
Kevin Gentry
No, you are dead right. Tim, I'm so glad you're saying this. And so few do. They see fundraising as transactional and they're raising money they're hitting people up to fund these causes when it's a win win partnership. And both are getting meaning by achieving results and solving big problems.
- [45:02]
Tim Kirsten
Absolutely. We need the message of Viktor Frankl and common sense. If you know anything about life, we need to give something of ourselves. Our time, talent or treasure are all three in order to feel like our time on this earth has any significance at all. And so all RKD does is we help bring nonprofit organizations together with and we find the donors and then help help to find them and nurture those relationships. So it's all about the donor. And I think it's so easy. And we have this tendency as a company to make it all about us.
- [45:43]
Kevin Gentry
Oh, you're great. You're terrific, Tim.
- [45:46]
Tim Kirsten
And turn inward where we have to. Our focus is on our clients and donors. And I think that's one of the reasons, reasons that we've been able to grow to become the largest company of our kind. There are other companies that would say that they're bigger and they, they do compete with us, but we are, but they have printing presses. We don't own any printing presses. We don't own equipment. We're, we're brought in for the pure power of our strategy, our creative thinking and so forth. And printing presses are a commodity or the platform on which you deploy you, your, your emails that those are just commodities. It's the power of the strategy, the thought, the creative that matters. And so keeping the focus on the donor for a business, for a business, any business, the leader has to say the most important person is our customer and, and our clients and we have to take care of them. So the, that's, that's the essence of leadership. I can't move away. You know, speaking of, of we're talking about going big, big. The other person who's inspired me most as a leader, and it's a required reading for anybody who's a VP or above in my company, is Max Dupree's book Leadership is an Art. Max Dupree was, he's deceased now, the chairman of the Herman Miller Company up in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And his book Leadership is an Art is not the kind of book you'd read from Harvard Business Review Press or whatever. It's a book about relationship. And he says the first obligation of a leader is to say thank is to, I'm sorry to define reality and the second is to say thank you. And so leadership, the onus is on a leader to tell the truth all the time. To define reality for people because if you're not, if you're not living in reality, if you're living with fantasies or whatever, you're not going to succeed. And it's a massive disservice for a leader to not tell the truth. And they're very, there are all sorts of gradations of, of that. I mean, there's outright lies, but there's also, you know, a leader can get up and give a rah rah that, yeah, things might not be quite as rosy as he or she is saying. So, so that's Max Dupree's book recommended to your listeners. It, it is. It's been fundamental and foundational to my success.
- [48:13]
Kevin Gentry
Awesome. Well, Tim Kirsten, what's next for you in the arcade? A group?
- [48:18]
Tim Kirsten
Well, I am. Well, that's a, that's a tough question, Kevin. I, I normally don't like to stumble. We're very growth focused and, and we are, are really focused on connecting with, with helping our, our clients connect with donors in, in, in ever more meaningful ways. We, we are building a practice of what we call donor engagement. Interesting to use the word engagement. So it's kind of focused on the, the middle level, people who are age able to give large gifts, capital campaigns, those kinds of things. Because historically we've, if you know the donor pyramid, your, your listeners do, you know, we've operated along the bottom of the donor pyramid because that's mass market fundraising. But we're moving up the pyramid and then making sure that we're appropriately emerging. You know, machine learning, AI, those kinds of things. But as I tell my team, those are just tools. Those, those are tools. They're not, they're not gonna, they're not saviors. They're tools that enable us to connect more meaningfully with, with donors. And I, I think, I think the risk is that there is a tendency to over focus on, on, on these new tools as, as the solution, but they're just tools and the solution are smart human beings. And so what's next for RKD Group is continued growth and continued ventures. We're actually a combination of 10 companies that we've rolled up, as they say. I've been really fortunate to have fantastic financial backers starting in 2014 that have enabled the growth. So I have to come full circle back to standing on the shoulders of giants, being in partnership with other people. It ain't all about me. It's about my team. And my team includes my, my executives that are closest to me that tell me the truth and, and my entire team. And then and then people on, on the outside, as it were, who support us, who are financial sponsors, very savvy business people who help us be better every day. So we're going to keep, keep going, keep growing, keep serving and keep solving the problems in our industry and helping our clients to solve the problems in our society and our world.
- [50:52]
Kevin Gentry
All right, well, final words of encouragement to those listening today. What how should we each think about going big? From the perspective of your 48 years in direct response marketing, I want to make it clear you didn't raise hundreds of millions of dollars. You engaged millions of people to get to the root causes of some of the biggest problems in society, which is a pretty cool thing to have been a part of. How would you encourage us further?
- [51:23]
Tim Kirsten
Well, you know, that's a great question. One Charlie Munger, who was Warren Buffett's investment partner, said, I tried to go to bed every night smarter than when I woke up. And that's, that's one of my, my goals. And I encourage my team. They hear me say that all the time. Some of the reasons I have a big library, because I, I'm not that smart. I need, I need wisdom and intelligence from other people. So go to bed smarter than, than you were when you woke up. Leaders are readers. So, so immerse yourself in the lives of others, biographies and history and so forth, and learn from them and have the humility to learn from them. And never the third, Never, ever assume or act like you're the smartest person in the room because that's really off putting real leaders. Don't do that. I have been around authentically great leaders and, and they're invariably humble. And so be humble and put others before your own interests to the greatest extent possible. And then not everybody can stand on top of a proverbial Mount Everest as a leader, but we all have spheres in which we can and lead. And it may be as simple as leading your own children into lives of integrity and faith and so forth. It may be as a store manager, it may be as a mayor, it may be there are all sorts of kinds of leaders, leadership opportunities. And the key is to know who you are, know who you believe in, where you're going and to, and to bring people with you, rally them to your own heart and your own mind. Mind that is noble and good. So that's what I would encourage people.
- [53:30]
Kevin Gentry
Well, Tim Kirsten, Tim Kirsten, you've had a remarkable career and you really are a great symbol for going big. But thank you for the very nice way that you all challenge us to think about our role as inspiring people in the effort to lead going forward. Great stuff. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you again and I look forward to being able to do it for many more years, years to come.
- [53:54]
Tim Kirsten
A real privilege. Thank you Kevin. God bless.
- [53:57]
Kevin Gentry
Thanks for tuning in to the Going Big Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling energized and ready to tackle your biggest goals. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes, YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps spread the word and it gets these inspiring stories out to more people. You can also find more content, resources and updates at our website goingbigpodcast.com Remember, the only limits are the ones you don't challenge, the limits that you impose on yourself. Keep pushing, keep growing and above all, keep going big. See you next time on the Going Big Podcast.