B (5:00)

Yeah, that's pretty common I would say for the Pacific Northwest especially in August you do get some of those kind of really strange summer storms.

A (5:09)

Yeah, hefty like end of summer situation because this was a pretty, pretty big storm like so much so that as the kids were like preparing for bed that night, Beverly and Donald shuttered all the doors in the windows because they wanted to prevent any of the rainfall from leaking into the house. Now that Wednesday night, August 30, 1961, Ann Marie's younger sister and brother, 7 year old Julie and 5 year old Greg slept downstairs on the ground level so they missed all the commotion that happened in the middle of the night. But Ann Marie and her three year old sister Mary were upstairs in their bedroom. Beverly and Donald remembered heading to bed between 11pm and 12am with everything seemingly normal, the only minor concern in sight was the storm. But again they prepared for it well.

B (6:04)

Sometime in the early morning hours of Thursday, August 31, 1961, Ann Marie marched downstairs to wake up her mother. As a responsible older sister, Ann Marie took it upon herself to inform her mom that her baby sister Mary was crying. Now Mary, whose arm was in a cast after a recent accident, was just restless with the unrelenting storm outside and also complained that her arm was itchy and that was obviously due to the cast that she had on her arm. So Beverly comforted Mary as well as Ann Marie because this is a storm and storms are scary when you're a kid and then sent them back upstairs to bed. Later, Beverly said that she couldn't pinpoint exactly what time it had been when Anne Marie had woken her up. But around 5:15am, three year old Mary came back to her parents bedroom and woke her mom up again. So the first time Ann Marie wakes her parents up on Mary's Behalf. And now it's just the other way around, because this time, Beverly was summoned upstairs to find Ann Marie, whose bed was empty, the covers eerily undisturbed, as if the bed had been made hastily after she had gotten out of it. Beverly also checked on Julie and Greg, who were still fast asleep downstairs. But as she rushed around the house looking for Ann Marie, she was puzzled, unable to find her anywhere. Now, keep in mind it's still dark outside. This was around 5:15am that panic is setting in. And the sun rose in Tacoma that day around 6:30am so then, as Beverly was making her rounds that stormy early morning, she noticed something more disturbing than Ann Marie's empty bed. The window to the left of the front door had been wrenched open, and the front door was both unlocked and open as well. Obviously alarmed by this, Beverly woke Donald up and started searching the house frantically once again. Beverly also ran outside in the rain to check with her neighbors to see if anybody had seen Ann Marie early that morning, but nobody had. By 6am the police were called. And as they quickly descended upon the Burr house, Ann Marie's siblings were taken to a neighbor's house. So one of the first things that police noticed were muddy footprints leading up to the house and perched on the windowsill.

A (8:39)

Creepy.

B (8:40)

Very creepy. Obviously, you know, you see random footprints around your house and on your windowsill, you're like, where did those come from? And obviously I just said that Beverly had gone over to the neighbor's house, but it was clear that the prints were not from Beverly herself.

A (8:54)

Yeah, especially because they were in the windowsill. Like, I feel like that kind of proved that somebody came through the front window of the house, went upstairs, and then likely took 8 year old Anne Marie.

B (9:07)

Exactly. And also police found a piece of red thread snagged on the brick outside in the living room. Grass had been tracked inside from the perpetrator's shoes. A partial handprint was smudged on the window, and an overturned wicker bench, which had been brought around to the front of the house from the backyard, was left in front of this window, appearing to have been used as a step stool to gain access to the house.

A (9:35)

Which is so creepy because then you also have to imagine that this person is trying to get into the window. So they're, they're going around into the backyard trying to look for something to help hoist them inside.

B (9:47)

Well, there's an even more disturbing and kind of alarming detail about this case because the handprint and the footprint that were found, they were small, like maybe the size of a teenage boy or perhaps like an abnormally small man. So this was a really interesting discovery.

A (10:05)

And we will be circling back to it later.

B (10:07)

Yes, we will. So as police were questioning Beverly and Donald, they remembered that the family dog was barking at some point in the night, likely when this intruder came in. But nothing aside from Ann Marie was missing from the home. So alarmingly, the motive really seemed to be purely that this person wanted to take Ann Marie.

A (10:29)

This neighborhood was essentially turned upside down, including a house to house search of the homes within the few blocks surrounding the Burrs. And we will post photos of their home and also the current street view, even though it has definitely changed in the last 60 plus years. But just so you guys can see how honestly quaint and suburban this area is, we're gonna get into this a little bit later. But it was more rural back then. As all of us know, like over the years, more and more homes are built.

B (11:00)

Yeah.

A (11:01)

So in 1961, I'm sure this neighborhood was much more bare and not as house filled, but still just, you guys can see it anyway. Well, thankfully the investigation was taken very seriously and given a proportionate response by local law enforcement from the jump. But still, that response wasn't fast enough to find Anne Marie Alive. Like about 100 soldiers from Fort Lewis and 50 members of the National Guard arrived in the area to assist in this search just in the first few hours. So nearly 200 professionals in addition to volunteers were out searching the community on the first day alone. By the end of that weekend, they had around 800 detectives and soldiers combing the surrounding areas, just looking for any sign of 8 year old Ann Marie. And while they circled the surrounding neighborhoods, Ann Marie's family just kind of helplessly waited, hoping for the best, but fearing the worst. Like, Beverly was at home because, you know, like a lot of mothers or family members, she's kind of just hoping that Ann Marie is going to walk through the door or that somebody's going to call her with news or a sighting or maybe even a ransom request. And then Donald, on the other hand, was out, but he was kind of just surveying the vicinity of their block, hoping to come across any evidence that would point them in the right direction because they have so many people helping. So they're like, we want to do our part because all they care about is finding Ann Marie. But they're also like, okay, I'm gonna leave it up to them and do some other small things that could be helpful in other ways. But also Donald's search took him One block west of the Burr family home to the campus of the University of Washington, Puget Sound, which happened to be undergoing heavy construction at the time. So Donald was scoping out the circumference of that construction site in case maybe anyone had discarded Ann Marie's remains there for a speedy burial, knowing that the foundations of multiple buildings would be laid soon and her body may be paved over forever. And it was there that he spotted a suspicious looking teenager leering at him. So curious, Donald confronted this teen and asked him if he had seen any sign of his young daughter. But the teenager denied knowing anything about Ann Marie's disappearance. And whether it was because he was desperate for an answer in his daughter's case or if he truly thought this young man was involved, we obviously cannot be sure. But Donald pleaded with the police to pursue this lead and also search the construction site for his daughter and is actually really smart by requesting this, because sometimes construction sites are used for under the radar burials. Like we've talked about this in various episodes.

B (14:07)

Absolutely. If there's an open hole that's going to be paved and there's going to be concrete poured in it or dirt or something, somebody would absolutely take the opportunity to use that. Like, we've seen him in many cases. What was that one guy's name? Oh, Brian Schaefer.

A (14:20)

Yeah, yeah.

B (14:20)

I was just. That always pops into my head because they were doing some construction on that bar as well, and I think a lot of people believe that he may be buried in that building or below that building.

A (14:30)

Yeah. Because sometimes they don't look in the hole and they just fill it. So this is actually a really great place to look, especially because it was only a couple blocks from their house. But by the time the police looked, which was days later, many of the deep pits had been filled in already. So. Especially because it was only 1961. There's no ground penetrating sonar equipment, so they can't determine if she had been stashed there. And maybe if they had looked earlier when Donald had told them to, they would have found something. But at this point, they have no reason to destroy all that work and see if she's down there. And as the days continued to pass with no sign of her, police believed that she had likely been murdered. Assistant Police Chief Emil Smith later said, personally, I would say she is dead. But we wound up with a handful of nothing. It was like grabbing clouds. There were no clues in the case. Deep sewer ditches were dug in the area at the time. I think she was thrown into one of Those already dead before the workmen covered it with dirt.

B (15:43)

Later, Beverly would admit that she knew as soon as she spotted the open window that her daughter was gone. So from the first day of the search, she had a gut feeling that Ann Marie would not be found. And she actually told the Seattle Times. It came to me just like that. It was a strong feeling when they were searching. I thought, what's the point?

A (16:05)

That's just so sad.

B (16:07)

Yeah, I mean, it really is, because Beverly was haunted by the decisions that she made leading up to her daughter's disappearance. Like, for example, Anne Marie had actually asked her to spend the night at a friend's house, which, turns out, might have actually saved her life. But because the kids were starting school the very next week, Beverly just kind of wanted them to start assimilating back into normal life in a normal routine. So she kind of blamed herself for.

A (16:32)

This, which is sad, too, because then we have to ask if whoever took her wanted her and if they knew she was home that night and that's why they went in at that particular time. Like, it could have just happened the next night. You know, if that was their objective. Was Anne Marie specifically right?

B (16:49)

If Anne Marie was the target or.

A (16:52)

If it was anybody in that house, then it could have been another one of her kids. So. But I understand that kind of like more logical thinking. Of course, she's having these horrible thoughts because her daughter is gone.

B (17:03)

Exactly. Yeah. And it's really sad to see parents go through something like this. Well, authorities questioned whether she could possibly have run away of her own volition, But Beverly said that there was absolutely no way, maintaining, quote, ann had no reason to run away. She just loved school and could hardly wait for it to begin. Well, and then on top of that, Anne Marie had also been looking forward to the upcoming weekend that was only three days away, because the family planned to take one last holiday weekend for Labor Day before school started. And of course, police have to ask this, but all the signs are pointing to someone entering the house. Of course.

A (17:44)

Yeah. I mean, the bench being moved from the backyard to the front of the window outside, and the footsteps like that just tells a whole ass story.

B (17:52)

And also the fact that she's 8 years old, like, where is she gonna run away?

A (17:56)

She just wasn't that type of kid. I'm sure some 8 year olds run away, but. Yeah, but that just wasn't Ann Marie. So they are continuing to search for her for days. Again, hundreds of people are looking for her. But three days in, military personnel announced that they were calling off the search because they were really putting in so many resources and absolutely no clues were surfacing. They didn't have her scent, they didn't have a piece of her, her, you know, pajamas, like they literally had nothing.

B (18:29)

Or like, you know, a slipper fell off of her foot down the road and they found that they really had, like you said, just literally nothing.

A (18:37)

And no concrete sightings either. Nobody to say I saw her in the front of a weird man's truck. You know, they. They really were looking so hard and they were getting nowhere. They had no idea even what direction to look in. But for her family, this left behind the terrifying possibility that she was still alive and maybe even being held captive. Beverly also acknowledged that the culprit may have actually been somebody that they knew or that Ann Marie knew, who maybe admired and loved Ann Marie and wanted to keep her alive. She explained, Anne was so trusting. It was a big mistake. We taught her everyone was good. We didn't teach them that people could be bad. I still think her abductor was probably someone she knew. In the aftermath of her disappearance, 200 polygraph tests were performed and over 1,500 people were questioned in the first 12 days of the investigation alone. That is serious frickin work.

B (19:44)

Yeah, that's a lot of people to have to question.

A (19:46)

And among the various tips that they received were also rumors of a peeping Tom in the neighborhood, though no one had seen him closely enough to be able to offer up a detailed description or even anything that could prove that this was true. And real divers were even hired to search nearby Commencement Bay and also went down into the sewers of her neighborhood to confirm that her remains hadn't been sent down the sewer drain. But still absolutely nothing was uncovered. So police officers couldn't help but describe her case as just utterly perplexing. Police Lt. R.R. richardson Jr. Said, I have never seen anything like it. We have nothing to give us any direction in the search. So in hopes of stirring up more interesting, Ann Marie's grandmother offered up $1,000 for a reward, and family efforts combined with community donations raised this to $5,000. And that might not seem like a whole lot, but that totals to $54,000 by today's standards. And they raised all of that by the end of 1961. Tips came in from all over, and for years after Anne Marie disappeared, each one was handled with care and investigated appropriately. But none of them materialized in a suspect. At one point, a prisoner in Oklahoma, so multiple states away, offered himself up as the murderer. As we See very often claiming that he had abducted and murdered Ann Marie, taking her across state lines, and then burying her in a field in Oregon. Investigators even went so far as to dig up said field in Oregon, but found nothing. The Tacoma Police Department questioned persons of interest for years after she vanished and kept detectives on her case. But it wasn't until the 1980s that a surprising suspect emerged. One of the most infamous and recognized serial killers that the US has ever produced, Ted Bundy, who not only was a teenager when Anne Marie vanished, but had spent his childhood living just blocks away from Anne Marie.

B (22:40)

So just a few weeks ago, we covered the case of the Tacoma girls, which was about the disappearances and confirmed murders of Michella Welch and Jenny Bastian in 1986. So, 25 years after Ann Marie Burr, both of those cases ended up being solved very recently. But in the episode, we did briefly discuss people's belief that Ted Bundy could have been involved, but it was just a natural question at the time because of his connection to Tacoma.

A (23:09)

Yeah, you see that with every serial killer. Could they have done this, too?

B (23:14)

However, I do want to say bringing him up in this case and connecting him to Anne Marie does seem to potentially hold some real weight.

A (23:24)

Agreed.

B (23:25)

Now, although there's no proof that the two actually knew each other, journalist, true crime writer and Seattle Times staff writer Rebecca Morris maintained that a young neighbor of Ann's named Sandy Holt later recalled seeing them interact. Rebecca recalled, she says that Ann used to be in the group of kids that sometimes played together and that Ted was around and that Ann liked to follow Ted when he got his newspapers ready for delivery in the afternoon. When Ann Marie went missing, Ted was 14 years old, and again, Ann Marie was just 8. So they probably did not hang out. But living in the same area, crossing paths and potentially following him around could totally make sense. Rebecca has even become somewhat of an expert on the case of Ann Marie's disappearance, especially as it relates to Ted's involvement, because she fully believes that he could be her killer. Now, in 2011, she even published a book entitled Ted and the Mystery of a Missing Child and her neighbor Ted Bundy. Rebecca explained, Ted was a paperboy in the neighborhood. He wasn't the Burrs paperboy, but he was a paperboy. I found a couple of people who said that they did know each other and that Ann sometimes helped him get his newspapers. Now, as many of us know, Ted eventually did admit to murdering 30 girls and women between 1974 and 1978. But the actual number of victims that he claimed is believed to be a lot higher. And many believe that he killed outside of this four year window as well as and just never admitted to doing that. But let's talk about proximity because at the time of Ann's disappearance, Ted was living with his mom and stepfather near the intersection of skyline Drive and 6th Avenue in North Tacoma, which is just three miles west of the Burrs home on North 14th Street. But what's more damning is the fact that Ted's uncle lived on North Alder Street, Just one block west of the Burr's home. Reportedly, Anne Marie spent much of her time playing outside with the children in the neighborhood, as obviously many children do, and also attended piano lessons at a nearby home. Ted was also known to ride his bike through Ann in his uncle's neighborhood, Sometimes for his job as a paperboy and then other times just for enjoyment. Though his route likely did not include the Burr's home, the it seems that the two were aware of each other. According to Sandy Holt and Rebecca Morris, the only question was whether he was capable of having committed his very first murder at just 14, almost 15 years old.

A (26:17)

We just released a bonus episode on the murder of a young girl named Sophie Hook in Wales. She was actually camping in a tent in her cousin's backyard when she was abducted by a 30 year old man. But we were talking a lot about this in the episode. Her killer tried to murder a 7 year old boy when he was newly 16 years old. So I definitely think it's possible. And people like the killer in that story, people like Ted Bundy really seem to have that in them from a young age. Which is why we see many serial killers commit some of their first crimes in their early teen years or during their childhood. And then we have to remember that police stated that the perp's footprints literally looked like they belonged to a young teenager.

B (27:00)

Yeah, and there is going to be a lot more similarities that I feel like are going to. Are going to pop up here.

A (27:05)

Yeah, like this is just, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more to get into. So Ted later wrote off his somewhat troubled childhood as pedestrian and that it had little to do with his subsequent crimes. But since then, experts on his history and crimes have been able to draw more of a link between the two. According to Iowa State University criminologist Ted Bundy. Expert. Crazy that there are Ted Bundy experts out there. And author of Ted Bundy and the Unsolved Murder Epidemic, Matt Delisi, Quote, Bundy drops a lot of clues that there were way more murders than the official victim count of around 30 young women and girls. And the pacing and confidence with which he's killing between 1974 and. And 1978 indicates that there's no way he could have just started. To me, it really reflects someone who's been doing this for years. Well, a little more on Ted, really quick. Ted Bundy was born Theodore Cowell on November 24, 1946, in Burlington, Vermont. He was born to a young single mother, Eleanor Louise Cowell, who went by Louise. And Ted actually never knew his biological father. But at the time of his birth in 1946, Louise was living in a home for unwed mothers, which is such a fascinating concept, a home for unwed mothers. But she apparently considered placing Ted up for adoption, but her parents insisted that she bring him home. So she and Ted moved back in with her family in Philadelphia, and her parents, Eleanor and Sarah Samuel, raised him as her little brother for the first few years of his life in hopes of avoiding the stigma of Louise being unmarried. Though Ted later reflected happily on his time there, others remember his grandfather, Samuel Cowell, as vicious and quick to anger and wonder if this shaped Ted's behavior from a young age. Cause Ted did later admit that his grandfather introduced him to explicit and sometimes violent pornography at a young age, which Ted said led to an inherent disrespect for women.

B (29:25)

First of all, why in the fuck would you do that to your grandson?

A (29:29)

I mean, he's obviously super messed up.

B (29:31)

Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's crazy.

A (29:34)

But also, Ted later said that pornography was one of the reasons in general why he murdered like, that this led to that. But this isn't the first time that we're going to see this type of discrepancy where he says, oh, my childhood was great. And then later says, yeah, that's what led me to kill. Because there are other times when he says conflicting things.

B (29:54)

Oh, absolutely. He contradicts himself a lot in interviews.

A (29:57)

Yeah, like, I don't. I don't know if we can really trust ted. Well, in 1950, so he was around four years old here, he and his mother, Louise, moved to Tacoma, Washington, where she married a guy named Johnny Bundy, who eventually adopted Ted. However, this did little to provide him with the stability they had hoped for, as Ted resented and disliked his stepfather, judging him for working as a cook and perceiving him as low class and unintelligent. From a young age, Ted was caught engaging in very disturbing behavior. Like, for example, he would hurt and torment Animals. Which obviously is a classic marker for our future serial killer.

B (30:44)

Yep, see it all the time.

A (30:46)

But not just that. From a young age, according to his aunt, from the age of three years old, Ted delighted in hiding knives in her bed in hopes that she would cut herself.

B (30:59)

Damn, we got a little Damien over here from the Omen. Like, that's, that's some really creepy shit.

A (31:03)

But that's why it's like, oh, 14 is young. Okay, three years old, he's hiding. Not. He knows to hide a knife in his aunt's bed. Like, whoa. Also, he was known as the neighborhood bully. According to Matt Delisi, he possessed no sense of remorse, guilt, embarrassment, or shame for his violent transgressions.

B (31:27)

But it wasn't until 1983, when Beverly and Donald Burr were reading up about Ted Bundy and his history, that they drew the connection between the then 14 year old Ted and. And their 8 year old daughter, who at this point had still been missing for 22 years. But here's the thing. Beverly actually didn't remember Ted and didn't recognize him from their former neighborhood. And she couldn't be sure whether Ann Marie had any contact with him at all. But after more than two decades, she and her family were still desperate for answers. So while he was awaiting his execution in Florida, she took the opportunity to ask him for an explanation. On May 30, 1986, nearly 25 years after her daughter's abduction, Beverly wrote to him in prison. And this letter read. Dear Ted, on August 31, 1961, just before school was to start for you and our children, there came a black, rainy night with lots of heavy winds. You were almost 15 and had been wandering the streets late at night and peeping in windows and taking cars. I feel your first murder was our Ann Marie Burr. The bench from the backyard was used to climb into the living room. The orchard next door was a dark setting for murder. What did you do with the tiny body? God can forgive you. With all appeals likely to be refused, and soon there's nothing left for you in this world. There can still be everything good for you in the next. Your life started going wrong somewhere when you were very young. There had to be a lot of bad things happen to you to make you have your strong feelings of hatred. I came close to ruining my life because of my cruel actions and feeling no sorrow about them. A lot of strange circumstances brought help to me and I would have not found myself even though I knew I needed help and my actions were getting out of control. You should have received that same help when you needed it. God can still give the help to you if you can gather together any strength that you have left and try to feel a real sorrow inside for the horrors that you have brought to so many. You will face these horrors alone. If there is no chance to be with God after you die, you have nothing more to lose in this world. By explaining your sickness, you will feel sorrow and gain everything in the next life as God promised to you and all of us. Please try. There isn't much time. I'm deeply sorry that you did not get the help when you first needed it. I have not written until now because the end of life for you did not seem near until now. Will you write to me Regarding Anne Marie Beverly Burr, Mother of Ann Marie.

A (34:19)

Burr Ever the self aggrandizing narcissist, Ted couldn't resist taking the chance to write back and talk about himself. His response was actually surprisingly gracious, but as with every recorded encounter in his life, it was a calculated and measured response with a specific desired outcome. Unsurprisingly, Ted denied having any knowledge of or involvement in Ann Marie's disappearance, but this likely has no bearing on whether or not he was actually involved. His Response, penned on June 8, 1986 read quote Dear Beverly, thank you for your letter of May 30th. I can certainly understand you doing everything you can to find your daughter. Unfortunately, you have been misled by what can only be called rumors about me. The best thing I can do for you is to correct these rumors, these falsehoods. First and foremost, I do not know what happened to your daughter Ann Marie. I had nothing to do with her disappearance. You said she disappeared August 31, 1961. At the time, I was a normal 14 year old boy. I did not wander the streets late at night. I did not steal cars. I had absolutely no desire to harm anyone. I was just an average kid. For your sake, you really must understand this Again and finally, I did not abduct your daughter. I had nothing to do with her disappearance. If there is still something you wish to ask me about this, please don't hesitate to write again. God bless you and be with you. Love yourself. Peace. Ted well, author Rebecca Morris was able to speak with Ted in depth before his 1989 execution as well. And regarding one encounter Rebecca remembered in 1986, Ted had told me the story about the hypothetical first crime of his of murdering a child. He told a story about this early crime of taking a child out of her house, taking her to the orchard next door and molesting her and then leaving her in a ditch. And after compiling research for her book for about three. Three decades, Rebecca has come to the conclusion that she does believe that Ted is to blame for Ann Marie's abduction. Rebecca explained, quote, he said, your first crime is very special, and you don't talk about it and you keep it close to you. I think he did it. I do. I think it was Ted who crawled through that living room window. Nothing adds up like it does for Ted. Okay, so going back, I think the whole I was a normal 14 year old boy is so clearly untrue. You know, just based on his habit of harming animals and bullying kids, at the very least. Which is why his letter to Beverly feels kind of hard to believe. Like Heath and I were just saying, he contradicted himself a lot. Also, to be fair, if he's saying in 1986, I had nothing to do with this, but feel free to write me about the matter again. Peace, Ted. And then three years later, he's telling Rebecca about, like, very minimal details about his first murder being that of a child. Like, maybe years passed and he finally felt ready to kind of unearth it partly, you know.

B (37:52)

Yeah. And with Ted, I feel like his excuse for bringing up this whole, oh, I was a normal teenager, blah, blah, blah, is because in some way he wants to still feel like he's a real human being. Like he's not, you know, hasn't. I wasn't always a monster throughout my entire life.

A (38:09)

Yeah.

B (38:10)

Like, when I was a kid, I was totally fine. But, you know, then after he got caught for murders, it's like, well, you. We know that you're a monster now, but. Yeah, it's like almost his way of trying to feel like he did have some sort of normalcy when he was growing up. But nobody believes that because again, we have eyewitnesses that said that he was torturing animals and he was bullying kids in his neighborhood. Clearly, you were an asshole back then, too.

A (38:35)

Also, a really important connection is this whole orchard thing, because in her letter to Ted, Beverly brought up the orchard. Right. She said the orchard next door was a dark setting for murder. What did you do with the tiny body? So she's even saying there, she knows that it could have happened there. And then Rebecca says that Ted told her the first murder he committed was of a child and that he took her to the orchard next door and then left her in a ditch.

B (39:05)

But the one thing that's kind of hard here is the fact that Beverly's letter was in 1986, and Rebecca was heard about this story in 1989. So did Beverly kind of plant that in Ted's head and then he kind of used that later on when he was being interviewed by Rebecca? It's possible.

A (39:22)

It's definitely possible. I feel like, I don't know why he would say no, but then hint to the details. Like, three years later, it feels like kind of. I don't know. That feels so weird. I guess it's possible, though, it feels.

B (39:33)

Like that would just be him, like, taunting Rebecca in some way.

A (39:35)

Yeah. But I was looking at. Again, we're going to post street view, like Google street view of the neighborhood. So you can see, obviously it looks way different now than it did then. There's no images of this orchard because it's not there today. It's just been replaced by houses. But according to history link quote, next door to the Burr house on North 14th street was a small orchard, a dense landscape of apple trees and thick rows of raspberry bushes. So I feel like that would have made a lot of sense. He took her from her house, brought her right next door to this. This rural kind of orchard where there's, like I said, rows of dense landscape where he can be hidden away. And then maybe he disposed of her at the, the college, the. The university where the foundation was being laid. Before really diving into this, I was kind of wondering, I don't know if, like a teenager could have committed this, because how would you do this? You know, if. If he took her from the house and she is resisting, maybe vocally resisting, it would make sense to be able to quickly get her out of the area by putting her into a car. And if you're a young teenager of 14, you can't do that. But this actually would make sense. Taking her to the orchard, killing her there, and then disposing of her body all while there's like a loud storm around you.

B (41:02)

Well, and also we were mentioning earlier how some people believe that Anne Marie followed around Ted when he was, you know, getting his papers together for his paper round. So is it possible that when he climbed through the window that night, Anne Marie knew exactly who he was? And he said, hey, come with me. We're gonna go to the. We're gonna go to the orchard over here.

A (41:20)

Right.

B (41:21)

Wanna, like, play a game or something? Right. And then he did what he did. The. The foundation plot was only a few blocks away. Could have easily disposed of her there. Body never found.

A (41:31)

Yeah, and that could also explain why nobody in the house heard Anything. I mean, even her little sister in her room. Mary didn't hear her being abducted. Nobody else in the house heard it except there was a dog barking and her parents heard that, but her parents didn't hear her screaming.

B (41:47)

And I just want to say that obviously this is a lot of speculation here, but her parents also believe that it was likely somebody that Ann Marie.

A (41:56)

Knew and she might have known Ted.

B (41:58)

So there you go. And to kind of piggyback on what we were talking about as far as, like, Ted claiming that he was this normal 14 year old boy. Well, Sandy Holt, the neighbor girl who knew both Ann Marie Burr and Ted Bundy, remembered Ted being a deviant from a young age and claiming in an interview that she absolutely believes that he was capable of kidnapping and murder. At 14 years old, Sandy recalled, he would go by if somebody had their laundry hanging out. He would touch all the women's garments as he walked by. She alleged that he was most likely the Peeping Tom that Beverly had reported having heard was lurking in the neighborhood as well. Sandy also remembers one terrifying run in with Ted in which he may have been preparing to harm her, but thankfully, her brother stepped in. Sandy said, he came up behind me one day and grabbed my shirt up here on my shoulder and said, come on, little sister, I want to show you something.

A (42:59)

There we go. Just like you were just saying he, right? You're saying maybe he. He kind of. And hey, we know this about Ted Bundy. Anyway, he literally would pretend he was injured to coax a girl into his car. Oh, yeah, like, oh, can you help me? Like, that's the guy that he freaking was. He could have easily done that to Anne Marie. Snuck in and said, hey, can you help me with something? Or, oh, I need help with my papers this morning. Like literally anything.

B (43:24)

Yeah. And he is, you know, he's very, very manipulative as a person.

A (43:28)

That's Ted Bundy.

B (43:30)

Well, when Sandy told him that she didn't want to go with him, he responded curtly, well, you are going with me. Sandy continued, he grabbed my shoulder really hard and my brother saw him and came running halfway across the whole neighborhood, jumped on Ted's back, knocked him onto the ground, and then got on top of him and just pummeled him and said, you keep your hands off my sister.

A (43:54)

Good brother.

B (43:55)

There you go. Yeah, that's awesome. Love that. And just like Rebecca Morris, prolific criminologist Ron Holmes was given the rare opportunity of being granted many personal interviews with Ted Bundy before he was put to death. And according to Ron Ted all but admitted to killing Ann Marie, explaining that Ted admitted that he had killed a young girl and when he was between the ages of 12 and 15. And he said that this was around 1960, after stalking, abducting, raping, and murdering this little girl. He said that he then disposed of her in a mud pit near the University of Puget Sound.

A (44:36)

It's all lining up. Well, Ted Bundy was executed on January 24, 1989, in Rayford, Florida. Investigators, as well as Anne Marie's family, hoped for a deathbed confession in order to eliminate him as a suspect once and for all, or, of course, to confirm that he was responsible. But this was closure that would never come, and understandably so. You know, he is an egomaniac. He probably killed a lot more people than those 30 women and girls and Anne Marie. So it's kind of like, you know, the chances of him just wrapping up all the names at the end felt kind of slim anyway.

B (45:21)

Oh, yeah. I mean, he's definitely not gonna do that.

A (45:24)

But of course, they hoped. Of Ann Marie's disappearance, Ted's mother, Louise, said, quote, I resent the fact that everybody in Tacoma thinks just because he lived in Tacoma, he did that one, too, way back when he was 14. I'm sure he didn't.

B (45:43)

I mean, you know, Louise, over the years, after watching interviews with her, she, like, she really believes that her little Ted did no wrong.

A (45:53)

No, she famously defended him even after, like, past the end of his life. So I don't trust a thing Louise says. And also for her to say, I'm sure he didn't like girl.

B (46:05)

No, Louise, sorry.

A (46:06)

In. She's probably just embarrassed, you know, and we see a lot of parents just go through this denial because I'm sure she thought that her son was perfect, and unfortunately, he was a monster. Well, in 1999, the Burr family finally decided to hold a memorial for Anne Marie. After holding off on doing so for 38 years. The family gathered at their Catholic church, planting a tree to honor her memory. At the service, Ann Marie's sister Julie praised her parents, telling them, you probably wanted to crawl into bed and bury your head as each day and year pass with no answer. But instead, you gathered strength and provided us with a wonderful childhood. Shortly before her death, Beverly told a reporter, quote, I don't let myself dwell on things because where does it get you? I never cry because I'll never quit. Donald Burr died in 2003, and Beverly followed in 2008. After his parents passed, Greg Burr said, I don't need closure. My mom and dad are in heaven with her. That's all I needed. At the time of her abduction, Ann Marie was barefoot and was wearing a white and blue floor length nightgown. She also had a chain around her neck with two religious pendants as well as a silver ID bracelet with her name, address and phone number, ironically to help her find her way home if she ever got lost. And none of those items were ever recovered. Ann Marie had blonde hair and hazel eyes. She stood at 4ft 2 inches tall and weighed about 55 pounds. If you have any information about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr, please contact Crime Stoppers of Tacoma at 1-800-222-TIPS. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West.

B (48:22)

Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. You know, this whole Ted Bundy angle seems like it could have been outlandish or far fetched, but I'd really love to know what you guys think about this case. Do you believe that Ted Bundy was responsible? Let us know over on our socials. We're on Instagram oingwestpodcast. We're also on Facebook and we're also.

A (48:45)

On TikTok if you want to watch some videos. But for comments, Facebook and Instagram are probably better. We love talking to you guys about these comments cases, especially the unsolved ones that deserve so many answers and justice. So let us know, give us a follow and we will see you guys on Tuesday.

B (49:02)

All right guys, so for everybody out.

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