John O'Keefe

Summary

Podcast Summary: Going West: True Crime Episode: John O'Keefe
Release Date: February 11, 2025
Hosts: Daphne Woolsoncroft and Heath Merryman (Teeth)
Produced by: Dark West Productions

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Going West: True Crime, hosts Daphne Woolsoncroft and Heath Merryman delve deep into the mysterious and controversial case of Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. Released on February 11, 2025, this episode dissects the intricate details surrounding Officer O'Keefe's disappearance and subsequent death, exploring conflicting narratives, questionable evidence handling, and the broader implications for those involved.

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Background of John O'Keefe

John O'Keefe, a dedicated Boston Police officer with a 16-year tenure, was found dead in a snowbank in Canton during a severe blizzard. Born on December 8, 1975, in Braintree, Massachusetts, John was known for his commitment to law enforcement, family, and community. He held a master's degree in criminal justice from the University of Massachusetts and was remembered by friends and family as "the pillar of the family" (07:32).

Notable Quote:

"I've never harmed a hair on John O'Keeffe's head." — Witness (04:37)

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Relationship with Karen Reed

John was in a tumultuous relationship with Karen Reed, who was arrested and charged with manslaughter in connection to his death. The couple had a history of disagreements, particularly concerning the care of John's niece and nephew, Kaylee and Patrick. Karen, diagnosed with Crohn's disease, felt overwhelmed by the responsibilities and the perceived imbalance in their relationship.

Notable Quote:

"We have completely different sides. This is not a cut and dry story whatsoever." — Daphne (02:36)

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The Night of the Incident

On January 28, 2022, amidst a blizzard, John attended a gathering at Brian Albert's home in Canton. The evening took a dark turn when Karen and John had a heated argument over childcare responsibilities. Karen left John at Brian's residence, intending to return to his home. Later that night, John was found unconscious in the snow outside Brian's house with severe injuries.

Key Events:

• 8:30 PM: Karen arrives to meet John.
• 12:59 AM: Karen leaves voicemails expressing anger (“john, I fucking hate you now”).
• 1:30 AM: John is discovered in the snow.

Notable Quote:

"John O'Keeffe is a generous, loyal, good-hearted guy who didn't deserve any of this." — Witness (06:11)

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Investigation and Evidence

The investigation revealed conflicting evidence:

• Vehicle Damage: Karen's Lexus SUV had a broken taillight and missing plastic pieces, which were found near John's body. DNA analysis linked John to the shards.
• Phone Data: John's Apple Health data indicated he had climbed three floors near the Albert residence around the time of his disappearance, conflicting with location data placing him at Brian's house.
• Security Footage: Critical footage from security cameras was missing or manipulated, raising suspicions of a cover-up.

Notable Quotes:

"There is so much varying opinion online amongst true crime fans about this case." — Teeth (68:25)
"John had gone inside the Alberts home that night and gotten into a fight that likely started with being bitten by the family's German shepherd, Chloe." — Alan Jackson (43:18)

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Trial Proceedings

Karen Reed's trial commenced on April 29, 2024, with high-profile attorney Alan Jackson representing her. The prosecution presented evidence suggesting Karen intentionally struck John with her SUV, leading to his death. The defense argued alternative theories, including possible altercations involving the family dog, Chloe, and potential cover-ups by friends with law enforcement ties.

Key Testimonies:

• Dr. Renee Stonebridge: Confirmed that John's head injuries were consistent with being struck by a vehicle.
• Dr. Marie Russell: Suggested the arm injuries could have been caused by an animal.
• Jennifer McCabe: Faced scrutiny over alleged Google searches and phone call activities during the incident.

Notable Quotes:

"I have been angry with John. I was angry with him that night." — Karen Reed (38:35)
"I believe that these injuries were sustained by an animal, possibly a large dog." — Dr. Marie Russell (43:25)

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The Verdict and Aftermath

After five days of deliberation and multiple appeals, the jury was deadlocked, resulting in a mistrial declared by Judge Beverly Kanone on July 1, 2024. Karen Reed remains free and is scheduled for a second trial in April 2025. The case has sparked widespread debate over potential police misconduct, evidence mishandling, and the integrity of the judicial process.

Notable Quotes:

"There's just a ton of shadiness everywhere you look." — Daphne (66:51)
"It's really not a good." — Teeth on Trooper Michael Proctor's misconduct (52:15)

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Key Controversies and Theories

1. Evidence Handling: Allegations that evidence was transported in paper grocery bags and potential DNA contamination.
2. Conflict of Interest: Connections between the Albert family and investigators, including Trooper Michael Proctor.
3. Security Footage Deletion: Missing footage from security cameras at the Albert residence, handled by a deputy chief with ties to the Sanders Birchmore case.
4. Alternative Theories: Possibility of animal involvement in John's injuries or accidental death due to vehicular impact during an altercation.

Notable Quote:

"And it was just that specific time frame as well." — Daphne on Deputy Chief deleting footage (67:11)

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Conclusion

The tragic death of Officer John O'Keefe remains shrouded in mystery and controversy. With a mistrial leaving key questions unanswered, Going West: True Crime highlights the complexities of the case, the conflicting narratives, and the broader implications for justice and accountability. As Karen Reed prepares for her second trial, listeners are left to ponder the truth behind the blizzardy night and the enduring impact on the O'Keefe family.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [00:44] Teeth: "And this is where it gets really horrible. The guy was cutting off my roommate's penis. It was like a bad dream."
• [02:16] Teeth: "This case actually has some parallels and connections to the horrific story of Sandra Birchmore."
• [07:32] Teeth: "Yes, he was born to be a police officer."
• [09:02] Teeth: "And I mean, even during this struggle, this awful struggle, he continued to step up when tragedy came into his Life."
• [35:21] Daphne: "Like, honestly, what are the chances?"
• [43:18] Teeth: "That photo is very pertinent to the case, especially because this case has yet to be concluded."
• [51:08] Daphne: "Michael also wrote that she, quote, had no ass of her involvement in the case."
• [57:50] Teeth: "Which obviously is just another conflict of interest in this case."
• [63:06] Daphne: "I would love to know if there was DNA of the dogs on John's arm."

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Further Engagement

Hosts encourage listeners to join the discussion on their Facebook and Instagram, where additional photos and footage related to the case are available. They invite audience opinions and theories, emphasizing the community's role in unraveling complex true crime cases.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussions and investigative insights presented in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for both regular listeners and newcomers.

Transcript

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[Teeth]

It was a kidnapping torture case. A crime of greed and cruelty. The men tortured the victim by beating, tasing and burning him.

[Daphne]

But it didn't end there.

[Teeth]

And this is where it gets really horrible. The guy was cutting off my roommate's penis. It was like a bad dream.

[Advertiser]

This crime was horrific.

[Teeth]

He's a psychopath. Wicked game. Devil in the Desert.

[Daphne]

This was a story about greed, sadism, evil.

[Teeth]

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[T Mobile Customer]

Ever since switching to T Mobile, something weird has been happening. I get to cut lines.

[Advertiser]

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[T Mobile Customer]

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[Teeth]

What is going on? True crime fans, I'm your host, Teeth.

[Daphne]

And I'm your host, Daphne.

[Teeth]

And you're listening to Going West.

[Daphne]

Hello everybody. Thank you for tuning in today. Hope you're doing well. We have had quite a few. Well, not quite a few. There's not that many. But we have had a few recommendations for this case. So big shout out to Laura, Lauren, Allison, Isabelle, Becky and Jackson for sending this one in. I'm sure a lot of you guys already know about this one, but man.

[Teeth]

Yeah, I mean, this case actually has some parallels and connections to the horrific story of Sandra Birchmore. And we covered that case just a week ago. So if you haven't listened to that one, go check it out. We got a ton of angry comments from a lot of you guys mirroring our frustrating thoughts on that case. So I'm sure you guys were just as pissed as we were.

[Daphne]

Yeah. And honestly, this one today is so frustrating too, because there are two completely different sides. This is not a cut and dry story whatsoever. You are either on one side of the fence or the other. And I'm so curious about like what everybody's going to think or what you already think because again, I'm sure a lot of you guys are familiar with this story.

[Teeth]

Yeah, this was a massive story in the media. So.

[Daphne]

Yeah, and it still is right now.

[Teeth]

It is.

[Daphne]

And there's constantly stuff happening with it. So we thought it was finally time to do this one. It only happened a couple years ago, but it's not one that I knew a ton about, honestly, until we dove in very recently. So without further ado, let's dive into this one.

[Teeth]

All right, guys, this is episode 476 of Going West. So let's get into it. In Braintree this evening, awake for Boston Police officer John O'Keefe, whose body was found in a snow bank in Canton at the height of last Weekend's Blizzard. Officer O'Keefe was a 16 year veteran of the police force. His girlfriend was arrested last week and faces manslaughter charges. In this case, Reid is accused of hitting Boston police officer John Okeefe with her SUV and leaving him to die.

[Goldbelly Customer]

Her defense says she's being framed.

[Witness]

You know, my mother had said, do you think she had something to do with this? And I said, we're not going to think like that. Then my wife spoke to her on the phone on the way back to Dighton. She told my wife that just have to remember the bad times. And I don't think I'm ever going to talk to you guys again. Why would somebody say that? Why would someone say if you didn't do anything, why would you say you're never going to talk to us again?

[Teeth]

Reed's defense team pushing back on where specifically the evidence was located previously, implying that it had been planted.

[Advertiser]

Were you aware that the scene was.

[Teeth]

Left open to the public for hours before you were asked to search?

[Investigator]

I was not aware of that.

[Daphne]

You think she knows what she did?

[Witness]

She knows exactly what she did and she's trying to buy and lie her way out of this, you know, refusing to take accountability for her actions.

[Daphne]

I've never harmed a hair on John O'Keeffe's head.

[Teeth]

Could you have been angry enough and slightly drunk because he had annoyed you that in the fit of rage you.

[Daphne]

Just backed up and never tried to tap him?

[Teeth]

Not to try to kill him, but.

[Daphne]

Try to to tap him with my 6000 pound full size SUV?

[T Mobile Customer]

No.

[Investigator]

Now to the Karen Reid trial. For the first time, the jury is Hearing from somebody who was inside the house where John O'Keefe was left outside on the front yard, dying in the snow. Nicole Albert and her husband Brian owned the home at 30 Few Fairview Road in Canton. They were part of the group that had been out drinking with O'Keefe and his girlfriend, Karen Reed, who's accused of hitting him with her suv. The Alberts invited people back to their house afterward, but Nicole Albert says she never saw O'Keeffe or Reed show up.

[Daphne]

No, they never came into my home. I didn't even realize that that was.

[Teeth]

Happening, that they had any intention to come. I met someone who was utterly convinced of their story, someone who believes without a shadow of a doubt that what the prosecution alleges happened on that snowy, blizzardy night in January of 2022 did not happen.

[Witness]

It's turned into the Karen Reed show. You know, she walks through a crowd that cheers her on. She goes out in public, takes pictures, and meanwhile, my brother's been gone for almost two and a half years.

[Daphne]

What do you want people to know about John?

[Witness]

Generous, loyal, good hearted guy who didn't deserve any of this. I just want people to remember him and want him to get the justice he deserves and that we deserve.

[Daphne]

John O'Keefe was born on December 8, 1975, to parents Margaret and John Sr. And John and his siblings, older sister Kristen and younger brother Paul grew up in the quaint town of Braintree, Massachusetts, which is just about 12 miles south of Boston. John attended Braintree High School and then Northeastern University in Boston, going on to earn his master's degree in criminal justice from the University of Massachusetts. But from a young age, John set his sights on being a police officer, just like his grandfather was. So he joined the Boston Police Department soon after he graduated from college and remained there for the 16 years up to his untimely death because friends and family remember proudly that he never wanted to do anything else with his life.

[Teeth]

Yes, he was born to be a police officer.

[Daphne]

Yes. But outside of his job on the force, John loved sports. And he was a devoted family man, devoted godfather and friend. His ex girlfriend, Tara Kerrigan, who became a very close friend of his after they broke up, wrote a tribute to him that acknowledged his sharp witness, his infectious laughter, his kindness, his loyalty, and what she described as his old school manners. She said about him, he was one of the best humans I have ever known. His younger brother Paul said he was the pillar of this family. And evidence of these traits really shone through in 2013 when his beloved older Sister Kristin was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was by her side for every step of her treatment, and, you know, he took her to and from many, many appointments whenever he was able to. But tragically, her health declined very quickly because within six months, Kristen was gone, leaving behind two young children and her husband, Stephen. So in typical John fashion, he really stepped up to the plate when he was needed most. And he actually moved in with his brother in law, Steven, to just help him and the children transition into their new life without his sister. At Kristen's funeral, he delivered a very touching eulogy, telling her, quote, we'll take it from here.

[Teeth]

And I mean, even during this struggle, this awful struggle, he continued to step up when tragedy came into his Life, because on November 18, 2013. So just one week after Kristen's death, John lost his best friend, fellow officer Pat Rogers, to suicide. Pat's girlfriend, Laura Sullivan, was pregnant with their child at the time, and she remembers how John did everything he could to make up for Pat's absence, even becoming the godfather to her son. Laura said affectionately, he was the first person in my delivery room after I gave birth. And she also called him a constant in the lives of both her and her son. But somehow, I don't even know how this is possible. But tragedy struck John yet again when just two months after his sister Kristen's passing, her husband Steven passed away suddenly in his sleep from a heart attack.

[Daphne]

Like, unbelievable.

[Teeth]

This.

[Daphne]

This poor guy, this poor family, these.

[Teeth]

Poor kids, sister and brother in law within just a few months.

[Daphne]

Yeah. And your mom and dad in just two months in completely different ways. It's just unreal.

[Teeth]

Yeah. And though he was suffering his third unfathomable loss in just two months, John continued to step up and think of others. Originally, his brother Paul and his wife Aaron planned to take Kristen and Steven's kids in. But in an effort to maintain their surroundings and just kind of change as little as possible, John officially moved into their Canton, Massachusetts home, taking guardianship of his niece and nephew, Kaylee and Patrick, who were just 6 and 3 years old at the time. The years passed on, and in 2020, John was browsing Facebook when he came upon a familiar face. A woman named Karen Reed. And this was a woman that he met at his sister's 30th birthday party back in 2004. So it had been about 16 years since they'd seen each other. Karen remembers being absolutely charmed by him, but she moved to Dublin, Ireland, to work for a short while after they met. So their connection just kind of fizzled out after that, but after he messaged her on Facebook, the two met up for dinner. They had a really great time and after only about two weeks, she was meeting the kids.

[Daphne]

Now, Karen hails from Taunton, Massachusetts, so just about an hour south of Boston, so not far from where John grew up, and also spent some of her childhood in Blacksburg, Virginia. She attended a private Catholic school called Coyle and Cassidy, where she graduated with honors before going on to attend Bentley University in Waltham, Massachusetts, where her father taught accounting. She went on to receive both an undergraduate and a graduate degree in finance from Bentley and was then hired by Fidelity Investments, later joining the faculty at Bentley University as an adjunct finance professor. Though friends and family recall her as generous and funny, Karen has also made a few enemies over the years. For example, her neighbors once called the police on her after she approached their house, quote, yelling and screaming at them, accusing them of making too much noise. She then threatened, wait and see, you'll be sorry. John and Karen would also see their fair share of altercations as well, but in the beginning their connection was effortless and before long she was a part of the family. She remembers how impressed she was by John, really stepping up to the plate for his orphaned niece and nephew and caring for them, calling him the patron saint of Canton. She also remarked how much she loved the kids as well. However, the couple had many disagreements over their care. The day before John's death, Friday, January 28, 2022, John and Karen got into a heated disagreement over what Kaylee and Patrick were eating for breakfast that day. Afterward, at 9:49am Karen texted John, you have really hurt me this time. John responded, I'm sorry. This has been an issue with me for eight years. It physically hurts me to see everyone else in their life do things for them and I'm forced to always be the bad guy. In response, Karen said, I'm not the same as everyone else. Most of the time I try to do what is healthy and smart for them. More importantly, I try to support you in what you need. You just lashed out at me and said terrible things. I don't know how you've gotten to this point with me when I'm just trying my hardest. You made your point and continue to beat me down. I have a lot going on too. Physically I'm falling apart and trying to get answers and help. Then she added, I'm just your girlfriend. I'm not a perfect parent. I'm trying very hard and sometimes treat them nothing like I used to.

[Teeth]

Well, 48 year old John and 42 year old Karen continued to text about the argument for the rest of the day, though John's responses were becoming increasingly dry and he seemed to be losing patience with Karen. In the afternoon, she continued, I feel pretty shitty about how this morning went down. I know you said sorry, but it really stung, especially when I've been trying pretty hard lately. I feel like a loser turning around, just coming back over after everything you said. And then John simply replied, not sure what else you want me to do. I said I'm sorry and I was out of line. If you prefer to stay home, I totally get it. In multiple texts, she also accused him of cheating on her, which would become a theme of the final moments of their relationship, and also claimed that she felt that he was being bothered physically and emotionally distant from her. She wrote, I'm trying to hug and kiss you this morning and you whacked me in the face with a pillow last night. You're basically like, yeah, what about when we talked about the future? So why don't you just admit that you're not into it so much anymore? John responded, not how it went down, but okay. In another text, he continued, sick of always arguing and fighting. It's been weekly for several months now, so yeah, I'm not as quick to jump back into being lovey dovey as you apparently. And hoping to continue their conversation, she called him 18 times between 9:19am and 2:58pm that day, which eventually prompted John to write back, oh my God, stop calling.

[Daphne]

Karen also felt that he had been relying on her too much for child care. This is kind of a trend in their relationship and she said that she felt like she was kind of being taken advantage of. Now there is a ton of drama in this case, if you can't already tell, but it does feel relevant to talk about some of it with you guys so you can get a deeper look into their relationship. Because even though they really cared about each other and there were so many great moments in their relationship, particularly towards the end of John's life, things were not looking very good, as you guys can tell. And one of those dramatic blowouts happened in cape COD in 2021, which was also only a few weeks before John's death. On New Year's Eve 2021, John and Karen traveled with friends and the kids to Aruba. John apparently got too drunk and stayed out until 3am on January 1, 2022, leaving Karen and the kids to celebrate in their hotel room alone. According to Marietta Sullivan, who is the younger Sister of Laura Sullivan. Heath was just talking about her. She was the girlfriend of late, Pat Rogers. Karen witnessed a hug between them in the lobby, and she kind of verbally accosted them both and caused a bit of a scene. This was Marietta and Karen's first interaction. And Marietta remembered, quote, he was a very, very dear family friend. He was very close to my sister. Subsequently, he became very close to me. He was my nephew's godfather. He was similar to a big brother to me. So what happened was Marietta ran into John in the lobby of the hotel after he was seen heavily drinking at the pool bar. Marietta remembered, quote, I said, whoa, godfather, are you okay? He was stumbling into the lobby. I went up to him and gave him a hug. I pulled back and he was glassy eyed looking above me. We never made eye contact. It looked like he was looking for somebody. Then Karen approached and said heatedly, who the fuck was that? To which John replied, calm down. That's Laura's little sister. Marietta, who is still standing right there, greeted Karen pleasantly, saying, nice to meet you. To which Karen responded, you two. And stormed off.

[Teeth]

Okay, so she is. She's very jealous, it's, it appears, and maybe a little reactionary.

[Daphne]

Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure. And I think from her perspective, she has been with his niece and nephew, who obviously he is the primary caregiver of. All night long, he was out having fun without her. They're on a trip. She wants to be having fun too, right?

[Teeth]

Yeah. I'm. I'm not trying to excuse John's behavior that night, because obviously he should have been with Karen and the kids. It's 3am and you're still drinking at the pool bar. Maybe it's time to. Maybe it's time to head back to the hotel room.

[Daphne]

But it's also not Marietta's fault. You know, fuck you too, right?

[Teeth]

Yeah, it's not her fault. And also Karen, you know, probably a lot of that was building up as time went on as she's just sitting there by herself. Well, not by herself, but with the kids in the hotel room. She's probably kind of letting that boil. And then she sees Marietta and it all comes out.

[Daphne]

Yeah. Especially because she had had these concerns previously about him maybe cheating on her. She's like, okay, you've been out without me, and now you're hugging this girl that I don't know in the lobby. And then she kind of boils over. But it does seem like. I'm not a psychologist, but it does seem like she, this is a trend for Karen. She boils over very quickly, she lashes out very fast. It's hard. Seems like it's hard for her to get over things. Really? Yeah. But Marietta did say that Karen later apologized and even offered to pay for her room just to smooth things over after the way she reacted. Because Karen, you know, she obviously came to her senses and thought, oh man, like, shouldn't have taken that out on this poor woman, you know.

[Teeth]

Well, I guess that's, that's pretty good of her to, to step up and do that at least.

[Daphne]

Yeah. But you know, like I said, it's clear that things are not going well between Karen and John. And actually, according to Kaylee and Patrick, remember John's niece and nephew that he was caring for, they had been fighting more than usual lately. And Kaylee even remembered John telling her that he thought their relationship had run its course.

[Teeth]

Now, on the evening preceding John Okeefe's death, a bitter nor'easter descended upon Boston, dumping more than 2ft of snow and producing bitterly cold, dangerous, near whiteout conditions. John had plans to see his brother Paul, but they canceled due to the snow that day. So with his 13 year old nephew Patrick at a sleepover and his niece Kaylee, now 16, basically able to hold down the fort alone at home, John headed out to meet some friends at a local bar. On the Evening of Friday, January 28, 2022, John headed to CF McCarthy's, which is a cozy little pub and eatery on Canton's Main Street. Karen headed out to meet him at around 8.30pm, arriving shortly after nine. And then the group headed out to the nearby Waterfall Bar and Grill. And there's gonna be a lot of names mentioned in this case. So try and listen up here and remember some of who was in attendance that night because it is super important.

[Daphne]

Yeah, Heath is about to hit you with a lot of names that we are going to bring up later. So here we go.

[Teeth]

So Brian Albert was there and he's a well known and respected member of the Boston Police Department, as well as his wife Nicole, Nicole's sister Jennifer McCabe, and Jennifer's husband Matt. Now Brian's brother Chris was also present, as well as Brian Higgins, who was an agent from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, better known as the atf. So kind of like a triple date with a couple extra guys in the mix. Now, as the snow continued to fall, Brian Albert invited everybody back to his nice suburban home on Fairview Road in Canton, just five minutes from the Waterfall Bar. And grill.

[Daphne]

And this location is very crucial to this story.

[Teeth]

Well, just after midnight, John can be seen leaving the bar with a glass still in his hand. And then he and Karen got into her black Lexus SUV and headed towards Brian's house to join the group. However, Karen, who had Crohn's disease, said that she had stomach issues that night. So she was just gonna drop John off at the house and then drive back to John's house to spend the night that night. Brian's son, Brian Jr. Also had friends over, two young women named Julie Niguel and Sarah Levinson, who were there celebrating his birthday. So John would have plenty of people to hang out with at Brian's house. I mean, not saying that he was going to hang out with Brian Jr. And the two girls that he brought to the house, but there was plenty of people there that he was going to, you know, just hang out with, have some extra drinks.

[Daphne]

Yeah, and that's an important thing to note, too, is that there are a bunch of people here in this home. So by Karen's recollection, she pulled her car into the foot of the driveway and let John out. Because of the heavy falling snow and the cold temperatures that night, though she did wait in the car to make sure that he got in safely. And while she waited to see if he was gonna stay or not, because, you know, apparently he didn't know if he wanted to hang out or if he just wanted to stop in, say hi to everybody again, and then leave. Karen says that she queued up a song and checked her phone, which she had barely touched since getting to the bar earlier that night. Well, not earlier. It was like 9 o'clock. You get what I mean? So after about 10 minutes, she said that she was getting a little irritated with John, you know, not coming out to explain his plans. So she left, assuming that he would hang out for a bit and then get a ride home from someone else. But this is when she would later be accused of striking John with her car, which eventually would have killed him, which is why this very small pocket of time is very, very important. So as she departed the scene, bound for John's house, she left him a string of spiteful voicemails. And for everybody who hates when we curse on this show, I know there's a lot of people who hate when we curse. This one's for you, because here comes a lot of F bombs.

[Teeth]

Oh, yeah. Lots of F bombs here.

[Daphne]

But not by choice. This is. I'm just. I'm just reading. Okay, so in One voicemail, Karen yelled, john, I fucking hate you now. Back at the house, she called him again at 12:59am remember that? 12:59am accusing him of taking advantage of her for helping with the kids. You know, this is, like I said, this was a problem in their relationship. So then she said, john, I'm here with your fucking kids and nobody knows where the fuck you are, you fucking pervert. I don't know what she meant by that. Maybe that. Maybe she likes using that word. I don't know if she actually thinks he's a pervert, but some people just say maybe.

[Teeth]

I was gonna say maybe she thought that he was gonna flirt with the, the girls at the party that night.

[Daphne]

Yeah. This could have just been like out of anger, not actually referring to something actual. You know what I mean?

[Teeth]

Yeah. Well, we do know that in the past she had said or you know, explained that she thought that he was cheating on her. So maybe this is just some of her insecurity going on here. I don't know.

[Daphne]

Right, exactly. So then at 1:18am she left another voicemail saying, john, I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. You're using me right now. You're another girl. You're a fucking loser yourself. Later, when she was asked if she ever saw John enter the residence, you know, I. E. Brian Albert's house, Karen claimed that she did not. As she had been looking down at her phone after he got out of the car, she did remember that when she scanned the front of the house and still couldn't see him, she made a three point turn and left the suburban residence. Then Karen went to bed. At around 1:30am on the morning of Saturday, January 29, 2022 and around 5am so only three and a half hours later, Karen awoke in John's house. Because she did not leave like she said she was going to to find that John still hadn't arrived home. So after even more calls went unanswered, she says that panic began to set in, calling him more than 50 times between midnight and 6am now, obviously she's.

[Teeth]

Very confused because John is not home yet. So Karen started by calling the friends that they were out with that night or the night before, but nobody knew where he was. So concerned about the blizzard, Karen got into her car and started driving around to look for John herself. Because in an interview, Karen later recalled that she had a premonition that John had been hit with a snowplow. So as Canton was still being blanketed with snow, she drove around for about 20 minutes, scanning the streets for him. She checked the bars that they had been to the night before, wondering if he had returned and then passed out outside or maybe just tried to find some shelter from that storm. Norfolk County Police Lt. Brian Tully also claimed that based on cell phone location data, Karen passed by the house on Fairfield Road during this search as well, but that she either hadn't seen him or hadn't seen stopped. She then returned to join forces with two friends to help Jennifer McCabe, who we had already talked about, who had been at Brian Albert's home the night before, and Carrie Roberts, who was a friend of John's. Between 5:30 and 6:00am the women convened and made their way back to the house on Fairfield Road where Karen had last seen John in the early hours of that morning. As they slowed down outside of the house, Karen screamed that she saw something in the bushes jumping from the backseat of the car. And there was John, recumbent in the snow covered bushes right in front of Brian Albert's house. His face was bloodied, he had two black eyes and he was missing a shoe. His eyes were closed, but his mouth was slightly open. His body was cold to the touch, clad in only a sweatshirt and jeans. So Karen raced over to him, throwing her body on top of his, unable to tell if he was alive or not. At least not yet.

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[Daphne]

After finding John in the snow outside of his friend Brian Albert's house, you know, the last known place that he had been the previous evening. Jennifer McCabe, who had been at the bar and at Brian Albert's house, also was there when his body was discovered. Jennifer called 91 1, and in that call, Karen can be heard screaming in the background as Jennifer tries to calm her down. And she and Carrie search the car for blankets to cover John up in the off chance that he was still alive. And in the background, Karen can also be heard crying, he's dead. Carrie instructed Karen to move so that she could perform CPR, but she was ultimately unable to revive John O'Keefe. Carrie later claimed that Karen seemed intoxicated even hours after her last drink. And Jennifer remembered Karen saying frantically, could I have hit him? And did I hit him? And this would become a point of major debate as some believe that she was admitting fault, not questioning her involvement like Karen was suggesting. As paramedics arrived to work on John and transport him to the hospital, Karen called her dad, sobbing uncontrollably, telling him that she didn't want to live. Out of an abundance of caution, he placed his daughter on a psychiatric hold. You know, just worried that she would harm herself after finding her deceased boyfriend out in the snow. And ironically, Karen was actually held at the same hospital that was working to save John's life. When her blood alcohol content was tested, it was measured as.07 or 0.08, you know, even by then, which was about nine hours after they left the bar. Now, Massachusetts, like many other states, prohibits driving over a BAC of 0.08, which again, is what she was. So she. She was at the legal limit that morning and likely very high above it when she drove home after, you know, dropping John off. Meanwhile, to the devastation of his family, who had arrived at the hospital and were awaiting answers, John was pronounced dead. After Karen was released from her psychiatric hold, she was picked up by her dad, and they headed to John's house. And while they did this, Karen remembered showing her dad that the passenger side tail light of her car was broken and that she didn't know how it had happened, musing that she may have backed into John's vehicle in the driveway when she was reversing out of it to go look for him. And I want you to remember this because we're gonna talk about footage in a little bit. And it's important that she wonders if this could have happened, because it very well might have.

[Teeth]

Yeah, that taillight is, you know, a huge point of contention in this case, 1,000%. So when John's nephew Patrick arrived home from his sleepover, Karen hoped to console the children alongside John's family, who was also present in the house. John's brother Paul, alongside Karen, brought Patrick into his room to break the news to him, though Paul recalls that Karen had remained silent during this time, letting Paul explain what he knew. Now, according to Karen, John's mom, Margaret, was acting coldly toward her. And Karen instantly suspected that Margaret believed that she had something to do with John's death, which seems to be true. And John's brother Paul remembered in an intoxicated state of rage and jealousy, she just decided that she was going to do something about it and, you know, put the car in reverse and ran him down and left him to die there. We figured it out as soon as she left the house that day. When she came over, we didn't talk to any investigators, state police, nobody. You know, my mother had said, do you think she had anything to do with this? And I said, we're not going to think like that. I went outside to the driveway to look at her car, and her car was gone. It was a blizzard. I knew what the driving conditions were like. Coming from the hospital to Canton, we put it together very quickly. Paul claims that their interaction with Karen that day was brief and that she was only at John's house for about half an hour, most of which she spent gathering her belongings. On her way back to her home in Mansfield, Massachusetts, she talked to Paul's wife Erin on the phone and allegedly told her that she didn't think she was ever going to speak to them again. So at this point, Karen decided to retain an attorney, she said, just to err on the side of caution. But the greatest collateral damage of the whole ordeal was Kaylee and Patrick, who at just 16 and 13, were left without a parental figure for the third time in their young lives.

[Daphne]

Like, honestly, what are the chances? Like, how do they lose both of their parents in a two month span and then only eight years after that? Well, a little over eight Years after that, they lose their uncle who was caring for them, and basically, you know, their new parent. It's. It's unbelievable.

[Teeth]

I know. These poor kids had to go through so much.

[Daphne]

Well, back at the house on Fairfield Road, the storm was posing a bit of a challenge because the crime scene just continued to be covered with snow. Now, in the snow bank from which John was pulled, there were remnants of a broken cocktail glass and splattered blood. And we will post certain photos to our socials if you guys want a bit of a visual here. And then officers reported to Karen's house to speak with her, and she admitted that she had been drinking and driving the previous evening. And although witnesses and security camera footage combined to estimate that her drink total was around 9, Karen made a more conservative estimate of 4. And she added that she didn't finish any of them.

[Teeth]

Damn. Okay. Nine and four, big difference there.

[Daphne]

Also, I mean, if. If there's security footage and a bunch of people are saying otherwise, and we know that she was still at the legal limit in the morning, but says that she didn't drink that morning. Feels like that just can't be true.

[Teeth]

It feels like you would. Had to have, like, drank a lot the night before if you were still at.08 earlier the next morning.

[Daphne]

Yeah. Well, let's get into her car. Now, this is obviously such a big piece of this case. So her black Lexus, it's an suv, Was seized and processed, and authorities noted the missing red and clear plastic from the tail lights. You know, on the bumper, in between the taillight and the silver Lexus logo, there was also a dent believed to be caused by the glass that John was holding, because, remember, he walked out of the bar with a glass in his hand the night before. Now, in the snow surrounding John's body were shards of both red and clear plastic, as well as glass shards from the cocktail glass he left the bar with that night, which would paint the picture, you know, that Karen had indeed backed into him. I mean, that's what this is pointing to. Every single piece of her missing tail light was collected and pieced back together from the snow from, you know, around John's body, proving also that this broken taillight did come from her vehicle. On top of this, John's DNA was confirmed to be on the shards of plastic and glass. And there was a hair found on the back of Karen's suv. However, Andre Porto, who is a Massachusetts State Police crime lab forensic scientist, claimed that no human DNA was detected on the piece of hair, but he also admitted that the state crime lab is not equipped for mitochondrial testing, though it was unable to be confirmed as belonging to John O'Keefe, DNA analyst Tess Chart later testified, quote, so therefore, John O'Keefe cannot be excluded as a possible contributor of that hair.

[Teeth]

Well, when questioned, Karen did admit to being angry with John that fateful night and even said that they had fought before he died. She explained, I have been angry with John. I was angry with him that night. But being angry with someone and being angry with them and wanting to physically hurt them with a 6,000 pound piece of machinery is another hemisphere of intention. Despite their problems and whether or not their relationship was going to make it, Karen maintains that she loved John and thought very highly of him, describing him as an incredibly selfless soul. Now, John's official cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head combined with hypothermia, of course, for having been out in the snow. But his injuries themselves were not immediately fatal, and there's a possibility that he could have been saved if he hadn't been out in the cold all night. On Monday, February 7, 2022, a lavish police funeral was held in Braintree with hundreds of attendees. There, Paul eulogized his brother with a speech telling the crowd, moving forward, I will do my best to continue his legacy of caring and supporting others, even though I know I'll never come close to the way he did in terms of Caylee and Patrick. Paul echoed John's words from his sister's funeral nine years prior, saying, quote, we'll take it from here.

[Daphne]

I love that line.

[Teeth]

I know it just keeps popping up, but it's. It's very endearing.

[Daphne]

And the fact that John had said it at, you know, obviously, because it was Paul's sister who passed as well, and now he's taking the torch, like, really, really an amazing family.

[Teeth]

Absolutely. Well, as suspicions of Karen's involvement mounted, she was arrested at her home, actually, a week before the funeral on February 1, 2022, and she was charged with leaving the scene of an accident, manslaughter, and negligent homicide. After she was arrested, her bail was set at $50,000, which was paid by her family. And then the charges were upgraded to second degree murder. Karen obtained Los Angeles attorney Alan Jackson, who previously prosecuted the case against Phil Spector, who we discussed in our episode on the murder of Lana Clarkson just two weeks ago.

[Daphne]

So many connections to recent cases.

[Teeth]

Yeah. And Alan Jackson also prosecuted the sexual misconduct trial against actor Kevin Spacey. And as the proceedings began, Karen pleaded, of course, not guilty over Two years.

[Daphne]

After John's death, Karen's trial was finally underway on April 29, 2024, following a rigorous pretrial and jury selection process. To the shock of the courtroom, Alan Jackson presented photos from John's autopsy claiming that it would have been impossible to sustain his injuries from being hit by a car. But Dr. Renee Stonebridge, who's the medical examiner that performed the examination on John's brain, testified that his head injuries, including bleeding in the space around his brain, were consistent with having been struck by a vehicle and thrown to the ground. Another medical examiner, Dr. Eriny Scordi Bello, reported that John's blood alcohol content was 0.21 at the time of his autopsy, which is more than twice the legal driving limit. And this is the beginning level of severe impairment and possibly blackout. She claimed that she could not determine whether or not his death was accidental or intentional, adding, quote, I didn't see any signs, major signs of what I would call a significant, significant altercation. But Allen laid out a new theory. John had gone inside the Alberts home that night and gotten into a fight that likely started with being bitten by the family's German shepherd, Chloe. Because alongside the posthumous picture of John's bloodied arm, which is covered in open cuts, as you'll see in the picture that we posted online, Allen claimed that he believed that, that the altercation escalated after too many drinks and John was tossed outside in the cold and left to die. And I really hate posting any kind of photos of, you know, any autopsy photos or crime scene photos or anything like that, but I honestly think this picture of his arm is so important to this case. So that's why I want to post it. Even though it's graphic in the sense that, yes, this photo was taken after he was deceased and you know, his arm is very scratched up and bloodied. It's really important to figure out how that happened.

[Teeth]

Absolutely. That photo is very pertinent to the case, especially because this case has yet to be concluded.

[Daphne]

So Allen actually called an emergency room physician named Dr. Marie Russell to the stand, who analyzed the photo of John's arm and concluded to the courtroom, quote, I believe that these injuries were sustained by an animal, possibly a large dog, because of the pattern of the injuries. So many people, so many doctors, you know, obviously during this trial, so many people online have analyzed this photo. And I have to agree, I think they do look like scratches, like, they look like claw marks.

[Teeth]

Yeah, it looks like some sort of animal, obviously, to be determined, got a hold of John's arm Somehow, yeah.

[Daphne]

And because of, you know, the. The parallel nature of the cut to his arm, she believed them to be caused by animal teeth or claws or both. And strangely, the Alberts rehomed German shepherd Chloe out of state, whom they had had for seven years just months after John's death.

[Teeth]

I mean, I think we can all agree that when you have a family pet that you've had for seven years, you're probably not going to re home that pet because they become a part of your family. It's like your child.

[Daphne]

It's just a little weird. Like, I think especially knowing that, that this is such a big part of the case, because if this dog did attack John and something happened in that house, also if this dog attacked John, that would mean he went into the house which as we're going to discuss the people that were in the house that night said that he never made it inside. So this is why I'm only telling you that now because this is why it's so important to know if Chloe did this to John's arm, because it tells us. It tells us who's lying here.

[Teeth]

Right?

[Daphne]

So, yeah, them rehoming their dog after seven years, only months after John's death is really strange to me. Or strange to me especially because they did it out of state as well. Now, the defense accused Brian Albert, whose home it was, of being the instigator of this alleged altercation, and his family and friends for helping him cover it up because of their many connections to law enforcement since Brian was a Boston Police Department officer. And Brian Higgins was also there. Remember, he was the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Agent Alan Jackson purported that getting away with murder would not be out of reach.

[Teeth]

However, everybody in that house that night denies involvement. And like Daphne said, they explained that John never even made it inside. According to State trooper Nick Guarino, who worked on Sandra Birchmore's case after her murder one year before John's death. John's phone location data never actually placed him inside the home or in the backyard. And strangely, his Apple Health data logged that he climbed a flight of stairs at 12:22am but according to his phone location data, he was still in the car with Karen at the time, over a half mile or 0.8 km away from the Fairfield Road home.

[Daphne]

I want to read this quote that I found because I think this is a really important piece of the story as well, because there is no resolution for what this means. You know, why his phone recorded this. But here's a quote. So between 12:21am and 12:24am Apple Health recorded O'Keefe taking 80 steps I. E. Traveling approximately 200ft or 60 meters and climbing the equivalent of three floors. With his location data pinging at or near the Albert residence. The only reasonable interpretation of O'Keefe's Apple Health data which shows an elevation gain of three floors at or near the Albert residence is that he made it inside the Albert's three story residence. That is from a motion filed by the defense. So I just think that's really interesting because that could tell us that he did make it inside the house and went in and up the stairs. But it could also mean that it's a glitch like that. That is the hardest part of this case is everything has multiple explanations.

[Teeth]

Well I do think it's very interesting that they kind of pinpointed it down to about three floors and then just knowing that the Albert's home is three floors that does make you a little bit suspicious of the situation. But you could be right. It could be a glitch that just, you know it just was a one off type thing thing that happened. I mean that does happen a lot. A lot of times we've talked about.

[Daphne]

This in a different case. I can't remember what case this was. It was also I think in Massachusetts and her Apple watch was recording that she was alive but it was believed that by that time she was deceased. So there's, you know, technology is not, it's not perfect. It's not perfect. So. But that's why again this is so frustrating because. Okay, so what does this mean? Is it relevant or is it irrelevant?

[Teeth]

Well, Karen's phone is believed to have connected to John's home wi fi at.

[Daphne]

12:36Am which would have been 12 or so minutes after they would have gotten to the Alberts home and after his Apple Health data said that he went.

[Teeth]

Up three floors and that's honestly such a crazy part of this case. But another major talking point in the courtroom was that of Karen's tail light. The defense alleged that these pieces were planted in the snow in front of Brian Albert's house. The courtroom was shown security video from the driveway of John's house. And when the footage zoomed in on the wheels of John's car as Karen was putting her Lexus in reverse the wheels of John's car then visibly jolted forward and then moved back into place as if being nudged by Karen's car. But the courtroom was advised that the video from when the car was being forensically processed is Inverted. And the camera is also motion activated. So some chunks of the video of Karen's car being searched are missing.

[Daphne]

And this is a huge problem because we will post the footage. Her taillight doesn't look broken when she gets home. It's a really tough angle. But when you see a photo of the broken tail light and then you look at this footage, to me, it does not look broken when she returns home. So then if we think of the fact that she bumped into John's car, it seems that could have been what caused the dent and the broken tail light.

[Teeth]

I mean, definitely go check out that footage and just let us know what you guys think. Sergeant Yuri Buchenik, one of the lead investigators on the case, recalled that when asked about the damage to the taillight, Karen told him, quote, I don't know. It happened last night. But Alan Jackson zoomed in on the footage of her taillight prior to her potentially bumping John's car, alleging that despite its pixelated appearance, the bulbs are not yet visible, meaning that they couldn't have been broken by striking John's body earlier.

[Daphne]

That morning, though, Karen recalled nothing particularly out of the ordinary on the night prior to his death, witnesses remember a different story and said that Karen was complaining about both John and about the nature of their relationship while out drinking with John's friends. Bolstering the defense's case of a witch hunt and conspiracy against Karen were some leaked text messages from Trooper Michael Proctor.

[Teeth]

This guy is such an asshole.

[Daphne]

Yeah, he was. He was one of the state troopers investigating the scene shortly after John's death. I feel like this is important to read because this is the person that is investigating this case. So in the. The text I'm talking about, he described Karen as a, quote, whack job, cunt, a bitch, and said, yes, she's a babe. Weird Fall river accent, though, referring to Fall River, Massachusetts. Michael also wrote that she, quote, had no ass of her involvement in the case. He said, quote, zero chance she skates. And quote, she's adding, quote, I hope she kills herself. So this, this obviously looks bad since again, Michael Proctor is investigating the case because he has clear bias here.

[Teeth]

Yeah, it's really, really not a good.

[Daphne]

Look, saying that she's hot, but she doesn't have an ass and that he hopes she kills herself and that she's. She's screwed, essentially. Like, she's not going to get away with this.

[Teeth]

I mean, it's pretty much just the dumbest fucking thing you could have done. And he was texting all of these messages to relatives, supervisors and friends.

[Daphne]

Well, speaking of friends, a link emerged between basically some members of the Albert family, you know, the family whose home John died outside of, and the Proctor family, Michael Proctor's family, making theories of a cover up even more justified because the families were friends, which Karen's attorney pointed out because of its major conflict of interest in this case. And these theories ran even more rampant when Jennifer McCabe took the stand. Remember, she had been out with them the night before and helped look for John that morning. Jennifer is the sister of Brian Albert's wife. Remember that?

[Teeth]

Well, get this. Alan Jackson told the court that Jennifer's phone was used in a Google search that read, quote, how long to die in cold at 2:27am and how was spelled hos. So this was obviously an easy typo.

[Daphne]

And 2:27 is pretty much exactly 2 hours after John would have gotten to the house.

[Teeth]

Right. However, in Jennifer's testimony, she claimed that this search actually took place later at 6:23am after they discovered the body when Karen asked her to Google how long it would take to die of hypothermia.

[Daphne]

I guess I don't really understand why you're googling that if he's already dead. Why, why are you googling that when you're next to his body to see, oh, I wonder how long he was out here? Like, it just feels like a weird thing to look up in the moment.

[Teeth]

Yeah, it does. But I guess this was kind of Jennifer's excuse. She said on the witness stand, quote, I did not delete that search. I never made that search. I never would have left John O'Keefe out in the told to die because he was my friend that I loved. Forensic expert Ian Wiffen claimed that this data and timeline are simply being conflated with a former search window of Jennifer's. Ian explained to the court that Jennifer typed those searches in a tab that she first opened at 2:27am while searching up a youth sports website for her daughter. Jennifer told the court that she had returned home at 2am and that before going to bed, she had quickly done some research about a basketball team that her daughter had been invited to join. Ian elaborated the 6:23 timestamp is when the how long to die in the cold with a bunch of typos search was first conducted. Never loaded the page, otherwise there'd be a record in the history database. And while that page was still loading, a second research was conducted for for how long to die in the cold with the HOS spelling of how again, that Page never loaded either.

[Daphne]

So basically the first search had way more typos and the second one was the one with the hos. So she looked this up twice?

[Teeth]

Yes, she did. Well, according to Karen's legal team, Jennifer's phone was searched, but she was allowed access to it beforehand and is believed to have deleted pertinent information. And on top of all this, her phone also made seven calls to John O'Keefe's phone between the hours of 12:29 and 12:50am on the morning of his death. Jennifer denied deleting any calls or texts made to John that morning and claimed that she was either checking on the status of his arrival to the house or that they were just innocent butt dials. You know, seven innocent butt dials.

[Daphne]

But like, which is it? Did you. Were you looking for him or did you call him by accident? What's the answer?

[Teeth]

Yeah, it kind of seems like both things are apparently true according to Jennifer, While others have posed the theory that the calls took place after he was attacked and that the people inside the home that night were attempting to locate his phone in order to hide it.

[Daphne]

But multiple aspects of that evening have evaded explanation to this day. One is that regardless of whether or not Karen was guilty of the crime, by either accident or design, no one else coming or going from the Alberts home that night saw John's body in the snow. Another is that there was footage missing from John's outdoor security camera. Footage of when Karen arrived home early on the morning of January 29, 2022 after dropping John at the Alberts home. As well as footage of Jennifer McCabe and Carrie Roberts at John's house later that morning when they met up with Karen to assist, you know, in looking for John. Making matters even more curious was Brian's brother Chris Albert's past legal trouble. Something which was dug out of the closet and has since been used against him as a measure of his character. So back in 1994, Chris was charged with the murder of Peter Mossarosch Berger, a college student from Hungary, after hitting him with his car and then fleeing the scene of the accident. A friend of Peter's who was also in the car with him at the time was treated for injuries, but he did survive. Chris was charged with reckless driving, vehicular homicide, and leaving the scene of an accident. And he served six months in prison. So Internet sleuths have really pointed out that Chris's defense attorney in the case was the brother of Judge Beverly Kanone, who is presiding over Karen's murder trial.

[Teeth]

Which obviously Is just another conflict of interest in this case.

[Daphne]

Yeah. So it's just everything that's being presented in this trial Is really tough. There's conflicting explanations for everything. It feels like they have no concrete answers for how anything happened.

[Teeth]

And there's just a ton of shadiness Everywhere you look.

[Daphne]

Absolutely. So on July 1, 2024, after five days of deliberations and three appeals to the judge, the jury was still deadlocked, so judge Beverly kanone declared a mistrial. So for now, Karen is free Ahead of a second trial that's supposed to take place in April of this year, 2025.

[Teeth]

Well, of course, as you guys could probably imagine, Trooper Michael Pittsburgh proctor was suspended without pay, and he had a misconduct hearing on January 15, 2025, but the proceedings have not been made public yet. Coincidentally, he's also the lead investigator on the Anna Walsh case in massachusetts, and we covered that about two years ago. And for those wondering, that trial is scheduled for this October, and we will be covering a second episode. But regardless of what you believe About Karen's guilt or her innocence, Many have pointed fingers at the police themselves for botching the investigation, Citing, among other aspects, that evidence was transported in paper grocery bags. So the anger on her behalf for what many feel has been a biased and unfair trial and skewing evidence away from the purported perpetrators has caused an Internet firestorm. But on the other side, Karen has frequently been criticized for her lack of decorum in the courtroom, including winking at the camera, Snacking during proceedings, and laughing or smiling frequently in court. Karen's next trial will move forward this year despite delays, as both the defense and the prosecution have asked for more time.

[Daphne]

And I know with this next trial, A new expert is going to look further into the searches made by Jennifer. You know, the how long to die in the cold? Because it seems like figuring out when those searches actually took place Will help so much. But, I mean, what a tough case. I understand why people think Karen might be guilty because of her previous and consistent behavior. Honestly, her broken taillight, the odd comments about potentially being responsible, etc. But I also really understand why people think that the group could have covered up his death. What doesn't make a ton of sense to me Is why the others would want John dead, Which makes me think. I mean, I think either way, it was an accident, in my opinion, or at least it was unintentional. Like, I could see maybe something having happened in the house, like we mentioned, maybe something with the dog, Chloe. But we have two completely different sides.

[Teeth]

Absolutely. And I can see where, you know, like, just picture this scenario. John is very drunk, as you said. He's, you know, nearing blackout stage. He goes in, maybe he's rough with the dog. Chloe. Chloe bites him on the arm or something like that. Who knows what could have happened from there? Maybe he reprimanded the dog and the Alberts didn't think that was cool. And there was. I don't know. I mean, we have no idea what happened. And I'm not trying to say that John was abusive to the dog or anything like that, but maybe because he was drunk, something happened with that dog and that's what caused this altercation.

[Daphne]

Or maybe there was a drunken altercation between Brian and John or John and somebody else and the dog stepped in. Yeah, exactly. So I just feel like to me, those look like animal claw marks. The marks were apparently made before he died. It's not like an animal attacked him while he was laying outside in the cold. But it's. It's so hard because it does feel like when you look at every angle, there's not a concrete answer. Like I said, we don't know exactly when Karen's tail light broke. We don't know what she hit to cause that. I think the fact that his drink glass was broken there is kind of weird. But in the footage when Karen gets home, it also, to me, doesn't look like her tail light is broken. But then it begs the question, then what happened? They. They accidentally killed John. They threw him outside. They all are lying about it. Then they went to Jon's house, broke Karen's tail light, grabbed every single piece, put it at the scene of John's death. Like it. That doesn't really make sense either.

[Teeth]

And to be completely fair, just because you hit somebody with your car while you're backing up does not mean that you're going to break a tail light. You could hit somebody with the center of the back of your car and it wouldn't affect the tail light at all. So everything is just very confusing. This is one of those cases where I truly don't have any bias. I'm not gonna say one way or the other, because I truly don't know until more information is laid out in this next trial.

[Daphne]

I think, like, I would love to know. I know all of us would love to know if there was DNA of the dogs on John's arm. But such testing may not have ever been conducted because it's not been released if it was and if it was what the results were. But I think that would tell us everything. It would tell us if John really did go into the house, which is, you know, one side is Karen saying, I dropped him off and I don't know if he went inside because I was looking at my phone. And then the group says he never made it inside. So was he in the house or not? We need to know because that will tell us who's lying.

[Teeth]

Also, if there was an altercation inside the house, you would assume that maybe there would be some blood evidence, some DNA evidence somewhere in the house, who knows?

[Daphne]

But it wasn't searched.

[Teeth]

Right.

[Daphne]

And I want to say as well, there's a couple of things I want to mention. The blunt force trauma thing. I think if Karen backed into him, you know, I understand that they're saying, oh, well, he could have died from blunt force trauma that way. But again, this is a blizzard. There's fresh, fluffy snow falling constantly. There's not ice. He's not falling on ice. He's falling on a fresh fluffy blanket of snow. So to me, the blunt force trauma thing doesn't really make sense with being backed into with a vehicle. And also, that does not explain where all those scratches came from, those fresh bloodied wounds.

[Teeth]

Well, not necessarily, because if he was backed into hard enough, he could have hit his head on the back of the car. But I feel like also, if you're thinking about that, you would imagine John's not like a small guy. You would imagine that there would be a little bit more damage to the back of Karen's car if she, like, if she hit him hard enough to potentially nearly kill him.

[Daphne]

Yeah.

[Teeth]

So what's interesting here is that another thing I wanted to bring up is that is it possible he was laying in the snow and another animal. Are there other animals in the area that could have come upon Jon and had done that to him while he was still alive? Seeing his body there, you know, unconscious, as an opportunity to feed. I don't know.

[Daphne]

I mean, everything feels far fetched. Yeah, that's a weird thing.

[Teeth]

I know. I feel like a moron talking about this because everything I'm talking about seems like way out in left field, but it's like there really are no answers here.

[Daphne]

Well, that's why it feels like, oh, the simplest answer is that Karen, whether on purpose or on accident, backed into him and then left the scene. But again, in my opinion, the footage of her car, it does not look like her tail light is broken. And that is such a big piece of this because if it wasn't broken, then she didn't hit John and it doesn't look broken. Or of course, like you just said, Heath, that the tail light breaking was totally separate from the accident that really did break when she backed into John's car. And the damage, you know, the dent to the car was from John's body. But I want to talk about something really quick, more concrete. You know, the missing footage from outside of John's house is really suspicious to me. If the camera was motion activated, was footage potentially deleted, Was pertinent footage potentially not caught? This could mean that somebody in the group did go to her car and take the pieces from her tail light and plant them at the scene. If anybody thinks that that happened. But also, speaking of footage, according to many reports, the person who lived across the street from the Alberts is a deputy chief for the Canton police. And they had a ring camera. But the footage from the time in question was deleted.

[Teeth]

I feel like that is super suspicious. And not to mention this Canton police department. This is the same police department that was responsible for taking care of the.

[Daphne]

Sandra Birchmore case and the men who.

[Teeth]

Abused her and all of the corruption that happened. So they're already not looking good because of that. And now they have a new situation where security camera footage is being deleted. It looks like a cover up is happening. So what is actually happening here?

[Daphne]

It is just beyond. Because why they would just delete? I mean, I never go through our security footage and delete anything. It's just there. Why would you. Why would you delete it? Why would you. Why? Like what is the reason? Do you not have an endless storage and you're just picking and choosing? It doesn't make any sense. If it auto deleted, that one makes sense. But that's not what happened here. The deputy chief deleted the footage and it was facing the camera was facing the Albert's house. You would have seen John's death on that camera.

[Teeth]

Yeah. And it was just that specific time frame as well.

[Daphne]

That is huge to me. Well, the Okee family filed wrongful death lawsuits against Karen Reed as well as against both of the Canton bars that they visited that night, alleging that the pair were overserved. Hopefully this year will bring answers to the O'Keefe family regarding what happened to John. So that the focus can be back on John instead of on Karen Reed and all the people in that house that might have been involved. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West.

[Teeth]

Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Let us know what you think about this case because I mean, there is so much varying opinion online amongst true crime fans about this case. I know that it's been very, very big in the media. So I'd love to know what you guys think. We are on Facebook. We have a discussion group. We can talk about it over there. Also, if you want to see photos from this episode, head on over to our socials. We're on Instagram at goingwestpodcast. And again, we're on Facebook.

[Daphne]

Yeah, there is a lot, there is a lot of footage and photographs from this case that you guys will definitely want to see. So go check it out. I was trying to look up online, you know, on Reddit and different forums on this case to see what the general consensus is. And I feel like majority of people do think that Karen Reed is innocent and that this is a police cover up. So again, I really, really hope that new evidence can be presented at trial. More concrete answers can come to this case. But God, what a story. Like, sorry, I know we did a lot of speculating and chatting in this one, but there's so much to say.

[Teeth]

There is, there's a lot to tell talk about here. But we thank you guys again for being here listening to yet another episode of Going west.

[Daphne]

And we will see you again on Tuesday. On Friday.

[Teeth]

On Friday. All right, guys. So for everybody out there in the.

[Daphne]

World, don't be a stranger.

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