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Going West: True Crime
The Hiding Man: Anatomy of a Serial Killer // 518
01:01:05
Serial killers are not just the stuff of horror movies or thriller novels. They walk among us, hidden in plain sight, sometimes quiet, sometimes charming, almost always disarmingly ordinary. But what turns a human being into a hunter of humans? How do they emerge? And more importantly — why? Today, we’re diving into the dark psychology and chilling statistics that define the anatomy of a serial killer. We’ll explore what the numbers tell us, what patterns have emerged, and what lurks in the background of some of the most infamous killers. Also join us as we discuss Daphne's debut thriller novel NIGHT WATCHER, out NOW! https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/daphne-woolsoncroft/night-watcher/9781538770900/?lens=grand-central-publishing
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- [00:00]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Foreign.
- [00:14]
Heath
What is going on, true crime fans? I'm your host, Teeth.
- [00:17]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And I'm your host, Daphne.
- [00:19]
Heath
And you're listening to Going West.
- [00:21]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Hello, everybody. Today we have a very special episode for you because today is the day that my debut thriller novel, Night Watcher, releases. You can officially buy it wherever you get your books here in the US in hardcover or worldwide. You could read it on Kindle and audiobook. Hopefully we'll have details soon about Night Watcher releasing in hardcover in other countries, but for now, that is how you can find it. And thank you to everybody who checks it out. Now, because the book is about a masked serial killer called the Hiding man who haunts Portland, Oregon, as well as our protagonist, Nola Strait, we wanted to dive into serial killers today.
- [01:03]
Heath
Yeah, I mean, think of this like a Serial Killers for Dummies episode. It's chock full of fascinating facts and examples of serial killers here in the US what makes them tick and what makes them act. And then later, we'll do a little Q and A with Daphne about her book and how Going west helped inspire the idea for the book and the inception of the book, Night Watcher. So it's going to be very fun. We're going to dive into some statistics, some data regarding serial killers.
- [01:31]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. And thank you to Heath for letting me commandeer this episode.
- [01:35]
Heath
Of course.
- [01:36]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
But I think you guys even who aren't readers out there, you're really going to enjoy this episode. It's something that I think we're all interested in learning more about with our true crime brains, the psychology kind of behind a serial killer. Because we do a lot of talking about killers, but not really about killers, you know?
- [01:54]
Heath
Yeah, exactly. We talk about killers, but we don't dive deep into why they do what they do.
- [02:00]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
So without further ado, let's talk serial killers.
- [02:03]
Heath
All right, guys, this is episode 518 of Going West. So let's get into it. A California killing spree that's captivated the world for decades.
- [02:41]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
The infamous Zodiac Killer, most notorious serial killers. Ted Bundy as a victim of Gary Ridgeway, the notorious Green River Killer. He's known as the BTK killer, or bind, torture, kill.
- [02:55]
Will Collier
@ first, Los Angeles police thought that the murder of a young woman last March was an isolated act of violence. But since then, they've come to believe it was connected to a wide ranging series of assaults by a killer who's become known as the Night Stalker.
- [03:09]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Serial killers are not just the stuff of horror movies or thriller novels. They walk among us, hidden in plain sight. Sometimes quiet, sometimes charming, almost always disarmingly ordinary. But what turns a human being into a hunter of humans? How do they emerge? And most importantly, why? Today, we're diving into the dark psychology and chilling statistics that define the anatomy of a serial killer. We'll explore what the numbers tell us, what patterns have emerged, and what lurks in the background of some of the most infamous killers. This is the hiding, the anatomy of a serial killer. Foreign. Let's get our terminology straight. According to the FBI, a serial killer is someone who murders two or more people in separate events over a period of time, with a psychological cooling off period in between. And actually, that pause is key. It's what distinguishes serial murder from spree or mass killing. It also suggests a cyclical pattern. It tells us that there's fantasy, planning, execution, satisfaction, and then build up again, hence the word serial. They are continuing to do it like a series or a pattern. And because of that repetition, we know they're not usually heat of the moment type of kills, and that instead, crimes of a serial killer are usually premeditated and driven by internal motivation. This psychological gratification might be rooted in, you know, like power, control, sexual compulsion, revenge, or a deluded sense of mission. Serial murder is about dominance, not necessarily chaos. You know, this is a person that, whether by urge or illness, wants to reclaim a sense of power that they feel the world has denied them to kind of play God over life and death, or even to orchestrate pain as a way of proving they exist or matter. Now, Dr. Robert Ressler, who was a former FBI profiler and one of the architects of modern profiling, helped coin the term serial killer. I don't know if anybody who watched Mindhunter remember that show on Netflix. It was so good.
- [05:54]
Heath
Oh, yeah, that was a great show.
- [05:56]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
They really, like, explored that and, and how serial killers really became acknowledged by the FBI, which was so fascinating.
- [06:04]
Heath
And also just exactly how they started to use these profiling techniques to identify serial killers.
- [06:11]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Actually, for those who watched Mindhunter, the character Bill Tenge is based on Dr. Robert Ressler. And Dr. Robert Ressler even emphasized that many of these individuals kill to gain control over their environment, making their murderous acts a very twisted antidote to the chaos of their inner worlds. And we're going to dive into motivations here in a bit, but to tack on to what I just said really quick, I want to add that a 2005 study in the Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling found that serial killers often develop an intense need for control following early life trauma, which Also means that the act of murder for them can be almost ritualistic and can help reaffirm their dominance in a world that they don't feel they fit into.
- [07:02]
Heath
Well, now that we've kind of given you a description on what serial killers are, let's talk about how many of them are out there and how many of them have existed. So, according to research from Radford University and the FBI, the US has had over 3,000 known serial killers just since the early 1900s, making the US the birthplace and location for more serial killers than any other country in the world. Which also kind of isn't that crazy when you also remember that the US Is the third biggest country in the world after China and India. But still, I mean, we have had the most serial killers of any country. Now, in 2019, the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit noted that while serial killings represent less than 1% of total homicides in the U.S. their impact is outsized due to the psychological terror that they instill. You know, it's that there's a killer on the loose mentality.
- [08:00]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And I also think there's just something more, almost like disturbingly fascinating about it to a lot of us that one person is out there doing this to numerous people, because we just want to know why.
- [08:12]
Heath
Of course. And there's a lot more to talk about when there's multiple victims. And it just shows that this person has a tendency that doesn't fit into our normal person mold. And we probably wouldn't think it, but terrifyingly, between 25 and 50 active serial killers may be operating in the United States at any given time based on victimology patterns and unsolved homicide clusters. Because, you know, as we discuss a lot on Going west, many unsolved cases can be tied to serial killers or.
- [08:43]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Also, as we talk about a lot, a killer might be convicted for one murder, but he may be responsible for more and just hadn't gotten caught for the others. Like we just talked about in our Shady Robinson episode last week.
- [08:55]
Heath
I mean, when you look at, like, Wikipedia pages on different serial killers, there's always like, this range where it's like, yes, oh, they could have killed between 10 and 50 people. And you're like, how did you come upon that range from 10 to 50?
- [09:10]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, but there's only stories about the 10. And it's just because, yeah, like you're saying police think they could be connected to so many more. Like, Israel Keys is a great example of that.
- [09:19]
Heath
Right. And that's also part of why that number is so high. 25 to 50 at any given time. Because we know that there are a lot of murders occurring out there. And they're not all domestic disputes or heat of the moment killings, but instead murders committed by disturbed people who just want to kill and are doing it repeatedly, whether under the radar or eventually above it. And actually the vast majority of serial murders go undetected until a pattern emerges. And that pattern is exactly what gets these people caught. That's when the slip ups happen, though, as we know, sometimes it can take years. Like the cases of the Green River Killer, the Long Island Serial Killer and the Freeway Phantom, all of which we've covered on Going west, all demonstrate how these offenders evade detection by targeting marginalized individuals or just by spreading out their crimes across jurisdictions like state lines, which can really muddy up an investigation. I think a lot of the time when we talk about or think about serial killers, we think about the 1970s to the early 1990s, because this two decade period is marked as the golden age of serial murder. And the reason for this seems to be due to coinciding with better media coverage, looser policing across state lines and less developed forensic tools. But now, of course, with DNA databases, digital footprints and surveillance technology, serial murder is a lot harder to commit and get away with. But sadly, to this day, it's still not impossible.
- [10:53]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Alright, let's talk location or I guess geography rather. You know, we know that serial killers often operate close to home. Even though there are definitely some serial killers that cross the country or the state. Like we have discussed various killers like the i5 killer or the Highway 20 killer that commit acts across a stretch of highway or across a state. But most killers choose a hunting ground, if you will, that they understand. Well, that gives them familiarity and anonymity and this lets them know their surroundings so that maybe they can make less mistakes because of that familiarity.
- [11:32]
Heath
There's of course, you know, a lot of different killers, like there have been truckers who ended up becoming serial killers like Keith Jesperson, who would actually cross state lines and used that as a way of evading police just because they were constantly on the move.
- [11:48]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Like that's exactly how you would get away with it. And a lot of those killers also, as we were kind of just touching on target more vulnerable populations like sex workers or houseless people. So that kind of helps in them getting away with it. Like we still to this day don't know a lot of the, the identities of those highway killers.
- [12:09]
Heath
Right. Because you know, when we talk about true crime, there seems to be a huge Sensationalism when it comes to a particular, like, demographic of people. But a lot of times, like, minorities will be killed, will be serial murdered, and people really don't take those things as seriously. Or at least they didn't back then. Now we can kind of track that a lot better.
- [12:31]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, let's talk about serial murder on a state level, because California, which obviously many of us know is the most populous state in the US has seen over 1600 victims linked to serial killers, which is the highest of any US State. And then following California is Texas, Florida, New York, and Illinois. The common denominator is actually, if you can't already tell population density, these states have the most people in them primarily, but also mobility. You know, there's more people, there's more opportunity, more ability to vanish into a crowd. Because urban areas offer cover. Which is why a 2020 study by Radford University found that nearly 70% of U.S. serial killers operated primarily in cities. But of course, rural regions obviously are not immune because killers like Israel Keyes used remote areas to bury victims and avoid detection. So it seems like both of them have their quote unquote benefits.
- [13:38]
Heath
Yeah, their serial murdering benefits.
- [13:41]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
But California isn't just the most prolific location for serial killer activity. It's also the state that has bred the most serial killers in history. This obviously is also kind of hard to determine because there's a lot of serial killers out there whose identities we don't know, AKA we don't know where they come from. Like, two weeks ago, my mom sent me this article. The headline was something like, why do most of the country's killers come from the Pacific Northwest? And then when I started looking more into that for this episode, I was like, well, it seems like it's California. So this is not a conclusive study, obviously.
- [14:19]
Heath
Yeah, definitely not. I mean, as we know, there's. The Pacific Northwest has produced plenty of serial killers, but again, according to, you know, population density and just the amount of people in the state of California, of course there's going to be a ton in California.
- [14:35]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. And so it's hard because it's like, we don't really know why exactly. Like, you're saying population density is huge, but then you could also add sprawling suburban and urban zones, transient communities, because like we're saying, many killers target vulnerable populations and a historically overburdened criminal justice system, especially in the 1970s and 80s. So that can help explain why there are so many serial murders in California, but they really are across the country.
- [15:06]
Heath
And here we are sitting in California Here we are.
- [15:09]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
But also Californians. Diversity and geography and demographics can also make it easier for predators to move between these different environments went unnoticed. From the Golden State Killer to the Zodiac Killer to the Night Stalker, California's cultural contrasts have long concealed many dark impulses and motivations. And it kind of goes without saying that the state's media rich landscape also means a lot more exposure and more sensationalism, which may have in some cases fed the egos of killers who were hungry for fame, as many honestly seem to be, or at least they're hungry for attention or notoriety. So I think that that also leans into this largely as well.
- [15:58]
Heath
Yeah, I mean, you look at cases like Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, and just how much publicity he got, how much attention he got. There were women sending him letters when he was in prison. Yeah, I mean, he was acting like he was this complete rock star, fun reality. He was a rapist and a murderer.
- [16:16]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
A lot of that sensationalism came from the 70s and the 80s as well. Serial killers in a big way were almost like glamorized and not actually because all of us knew they were bad people. But people like the media seems to have so much fun with serial killers. And again, just looking at California serial killers, like you're saying Richard Ramirez or even the Zodiac Killer and his, his, what were they called, ciphers sent to the newspapers. Like there was a movie called Zodiac for a reason.
- [16:46]
Heath
Oh, yeah. I mean, those ciphers were massive. And people just could not get enough because it's not like they could get enough of like the murder and all that. They were just so fascinated because they didn't understand it. And they just really wanted to know why this person was doing this. And they were kind of on edge, but also slightly, like I said, fascinated.
- [17:06]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, also, like you're saying with Richard Ramirez, like a lot of people would look at him and think that he's a handsome guy. So he's this handsome guy in Los Angeles and you're like, why is this guy raping and murdering people? So there is a lot of fascination there.
- [17:20]
Heath
And then again, you know, he's like this metal guy, kind of looked like Joey Ramon or something, you know, with his glasses on and all that shit. And obviously, then again, like the photos in court with the pentagram on his, on his palm that he drew, like things like that really. I mean, the media was just hooked.
- [17:40]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And I know this doesn't really fit in like the Manson family, but this was in that era as well, that was such a Hollywood case. I mean, literally A Hollywood case because of Sharon Tate. But, yeah, so many cases at that time in California captured people's attention nationwide, worldwide.
- [18:00]
Heath
And obviously something that you highlight in your book, Daphne, is that the killer, the hiding man, has a mask on, which I know that you kind of did as a nod to horror movies and less of, like a nod to real cases. But many serial killers do wear masks, and that does seem to tie into what you just said about that sensationalism factor or the interest in being famous or well known. But obviously, sometimes these masks are not real, physical masks. They're, like, metaphorical. While some serial killers, like the Zodiac Killer and the Phantom Killer, who was responsible for the Texarkana moonlight murders, which we did cover back in October of 2024, they did don disguises. But most blend into society through psychological masking. You know, they're the neighbor who waves from across the street, the quiet co worker, the church volunteer. But mask or no mask, serial killers often develop a double life to avoid suspicion. Which is why, although a lot of killers are described as loners or weirdos, many of them aren't. I mean, take for example, Ted Bundy. He was described as charming by many people, and he volunteered at a suicide prevention hotline. Dennis Rader, or BTK Bind Torture Kill, was president of his church congregation. But others were even more embedded in everyday life. Some, John Wayne Gacy performed as a clown at children's parties and was a local political volunteer. Jeffrey Dahmer worked at a chocolate factory and lived in a Milwaukee apartment building where neighbors barely even noticed anything strange. Then you've got Rodney Alcala, who murdered at least seven women, who once appeared on the Dating Game and won for his charming smile and answers. Gary Ridgway, AKA the Green River Killer, was a family man who attended church and worked as a truck painter for decades. And here's a little bit more to back that up. So Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who's a professor of forensic psychology and author of multiple nonfiction books on serial killers, notes that these masks of normalcy are really just tools of manipulation. Serial killers may even practice facial expressions in the mirror, mimic emotional responses, and adopt Personas that blend into the community, since they themselves don't think or act like other good and regular members of society. Like, imagine this. These people are pretending to be like you. They're pretending to be normal human beings, but it's really just an act.
- [20:36]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And in a lot of cases, you know, their brains are so different, but it's almost like they know that they're different, which feeds into that Attention seeking side of things, of I know I'm different and I know that you don't accept me. So I'm going to be a different way and try to be like you, but then I'm also gonna do these horrible things that you don't accept.
- [20:57]
Heath
Yeah, I mean, theatricality plays a massive role for many of these killers. We talked about the doodler in episode 468. And in 1970s San Francisco, he's believed to have sketched his victims before killing them. The Lipstick Killer wrote taunting notes on walls and BTK posed in bondage photos wearing disturbing masks, which if you guys haven't seen that photo, we will post it because it is truly something out of a nightmare.
- [21:25]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
No, it's like one of the scariest things I've ever seen.
- [21:28]
Heath
But yeah, this performative aspect can serve as a form of self mythology. That attention seeking element helps them control their own narrative. So the mask, whether literal or symbolic, becomes a tool for their own manipulation.
- [21:44]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Finally, we are at the central mystery of this entire subject. What makes a serial killer? And why do some people become serial killers while others with similar upbringings do not? We talk a lot about childhood trauma when we discuss serial killers because nearly 70% of serial killers report experiencing physical, emotional or sexual abuse during childhood. But of course, being abused as a child does not make you a serial killer. It's just a factor for many of them. Like Christine falling or the. The babysitter from hell.
- [22:23]
Heath
Oh yeah, that kooky weirdo.
- [22:24]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, we discussed her in depth just last week in episode 516 and if you haven't listened to that one, you must. I honestly have not seen so many comments from you guys about an episode being that wild in a while.
- [22:37]
Heath
It is truly one of the most shocking cases we've ever covered on the show.
- [22:41]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
But she was severely abused as a child and then she kind of went on to go do that to other children. But other examples include Eileen Wuornos, one of the most well known, if not the most well known female serial killer because she was sexually abused by her grandfather and other adults from a young age. Richard Ramirez, once again, AKA the Night Stalker, witnessed horrific violence in his home and was heavily influenced by his cousin who was a Vietnam war veteran, who showed him photos of mutilated women.
- [23:16]
Heath
First of all, why the would you do that? That's like a horrible thing to do.
- [23:19]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
He's a sick person too.
- [23:20]
Heath
Maybe his cousin was a serial killer as well, but he just took it out on people in Vietnam.
- [23:25]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Maybe that's very possible. It's absolutely disgusting. Then we have Ed Kemper, AKA the Co Ed Killer. We even covered a lot of these. I feel like we steer clear of a lot of those bigger cases. But I kind of want to, like, we should cover the Co Ed Killer.
- [23:40]
Heath
Oh, absolutely, yeah. Going back to Mindhunter, the guy who played him was amazing in that show. But Ed Kemper was a seriously fucked.
- [23:47]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Up guy because he was psychologically tormented by his mother. Like he was locked in a basement as a child. And that caused him, you know, due to this torment and abuse from his mom, this created deep seated rage towards women in general. So he just wanted to hurt women because his mom hurt him, even though it's not the fault of woman, you know?
- [24:11]
Heath
Yeah, he has the most. One of the most insane interviews I've ever seen. You can go watch it on YouTube when he's in prison and he's talking about how he murdered his mom and why. And like, the guy is just. I mean, you can see it in his eyes. He is clearly just the root of evil.
- [24:28]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
He has such a calm disposition as well.
- [24:31]
Heath
Yeah, it's freaky.
- [24:32]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I think that's what makes it so disturbing is that on the outside he looks so kind of normal and average, but the things he's saying are so deeply horrific.
- [24:41]
Heath
It's almost like he's telling you a bedtime story, but it's literally horrific. Murders.
- [24:46]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Then we have John Wayne Gacy, who was physically abused by his alcoholic father and reportedly suffered multiple traumatic head injuries. So again, although many unfortunately experience such things as children and can overcome it to a degree, like many people can do that for others. These early life experiences shaped their worldview and seriously distorted their sense of connection to others. And they turned against people.
- [25:17]
Heath
Well, yeah, them and society.
- [25:19]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Other things that we see in countless serial killer backgrounds is the McDonald Triad. This was proposed by psychiatrist J.M. mcDonald in 1963. And the triad, of course, consists of three behaviors frequently observed in children who later commit violent crimes. One, we have bedwetting beyond the age of five. Two, setting fires. And three, cruelty to animals.
- [25:48]
Heath
We talk about that one a lot because we've seen it a lot. We've seen a lot of serial killers that would torture small animals when they were young.
- [25:56]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
That's like such a sign. Christine falling did that as well. The babysitter from hell. And so I know the, like the bedwetting beyond the age of five and fire starting is like, wait, why? Just from a psychological level, these, apparently these acts reflect rage, a lack of empathy and a desire for control, which Are absolutely traits that can manifest later as homicidal tendencies.
- [26:23]
Heath
Well, when we were talking about Christine falling, We were talking about the fact that she was killing something that she could physically overpower.
- [26:30]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, she wanted that power. That's what she was looking for.
- [26:33]
Heath
Exactly. And then with the cats, because we kind of talked about that trigger warning. You know, she was killing. Killing cats to see if they really did have nine lives, which is literally insane. But, yeah, again, she. She knows she's bigger than the thing she's trying to kill, which is why.
- [26:49]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
She'S going after kids. And she's a teenager. So it's like, what's younger than a teenager? A kid. Though, of course, some killers also exhibit damage to the prefrontal cortex, which governs impulse control and moral reasoning. So, simply put, some people kill because they have brain damage, and others use it as a form of fantasy. Maybe they begin with voyeurism, stalking, or pornography addiction before escalating to violence. Something we also see in serial killers is they'll be like a peeping tom, or like we're saying they'll. They'll abuse animals or they'll watch their neighbors. Like there'll be a little boy watching their adult woman neighbor through the window. Like, these are all signs.
- [27:34]
Heath
I think another big thing that we don't really talk about that much is curiosity when it comes to killing, Because a lot of these killers have that curiosity, Whereas a normal person would have curiosity about, you know, other very normal things. They have this curiosity of what it would be like to overpower somebody to kill somebody.
- [27:53]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And that accompanies the fantasy category, I think, of, like, what would that be like? I think I would like that. I think I want to do that. So any and all of these factors that we just mentioned, Biology, trauma, fantasy, and access, aligning just wrong enough can create a predator. Though still no single formula explains it all. Which leaves so many questions for all of us, because for every killer who fits the mold, there's one who breaks it.
- [28:53]
Heath
Well, of course, it's no shock to any of us that men dominate. So serial killing statistics, as according to data compiled by researcher Michael G. Ammet, Women account for only 10% of known U.S. serial killers. It's really fascinating because men's methods and motives differ from women's generally. Like, women are more likely to use poisoning, suffocation, or overdose rather than bladed or blunt force weapons. And women also often kill in domestic or caregiving roles, like nurses, babysitters, of course, and wives, which is probably, you know, clicking for a lot of you thinking back to different cases that we've discussed or that you've heard elsewhere?
- [29:37]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Again, Christine falling was a babysitter. Dorothy Apuentes. I can go on, but I can't think of anymore.
- [29:45]
Heath
Right off the top of the dome, it's kind of hard to do.
- [29:47]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, but I know that sounds very real.
- [29:50]
Heath
Well, obviously, you know, the motives are very different as well. For women, they include financial gain, revenge, and hero syndrome. So creating danger to appear as a savior. Female serial killers also tend to avoid detection longer because their methods appear more natural. Like people, you know, when people get poisoned, they don't immediately think that this, this was murder. Compared to like a guy stabbing someone or beating them to death, more likely.
- [30:19]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
To leave less physical evidence.
- [30:21]
Heath
Right. Whereas men are more likely to commit violent murder. That leaves a lot more evidence, so it's much more detectable. But now let's dive into psychology, because serial killers are not usually insane in the legal sense. And what I mean by that is that most understand right from wrong. They just don't care. As discussed by Dr. Helen Morrison, who found that many serial killers lack core emotional experiences. No empathy, no guilt, and often no real understanding of others. Pain. Here's how FBI profiling divides serial killers into different categories. So first, of course, we have the organized killer. They're intelligent, socially competent, plan crimes meticulously, they clean the scene, and they follow media coverage. So, for example, Ted Bundy. Now we have disorganized. They have a low iq, they're impulsive, they leave evidence behind, they kill near their home and are socially awkward. So, for example, the vampire of Sacramento, Richard Chase.
- [31:27]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
That is such a horrific case, we should definitely cover it. He was a cannibal serial killer and necrophile who drank his victim's blood like he was really messed up.
- [31:39]
Heath
Yeah, so if you guys want us to cover that one, just let us know. We'll definitely do it for you. Next is the visionary. They're driven by hallucinations or voices and are often known as psychotics. So, for example, David Berkowitz, AKA the Son of Sam. Next we have mission oriented. They believe that they're eliminating a certain group of people. For example, Joseph Paul Franklin, AKA the racist killer. And this guy was a serial killer who was also a white supremacist piece of shit. And domestic terrorists that operated in the 1970s across many different states. Actually. Next is hedonistic. They just kill for pleasure, sexual, or just for thrill. So, for example, Jeffrey Dahmer. And lastly, we have power and control. They derive satisfaction from Dominating their victim. So, for example, btk, and I will say that most killers evolve between these types over time as their compulsion grows and their fantasies just deepen.
- [32:47]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Let's talk pop culture versus reality. Pop culture often dramatizes serial killers with charisma and genius. Yet most real killers are kinda mundane. They fumble, they panic, they contradict themselves. And I think that ordinariness is what makes them so scary. Like they're cosplaying as a real human being. Like, for those who know and love the movie Silence of the Lambs, absolutely love that movie. So, I mean, literally one of the best movies ever made. Hannibal Lecter is so intelligent, he's so poised. He has this very. Even though he is creepy and disgusting, he has this charm to him.
- [33:31]
Heath
This class, really.
- [33:33]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
So true. And although killers like that have existed, the heavy majority of killers are socially awkward and just kind of painfully average.
- [33:43]
Heath
Yeah, absolutely.
- [33:44]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And I really think that that's part of what makes serial killer stories so big and heavily discussed. Like, they're just like us, but they're also not like us at all.
- [33:54]
Heath
I mean, really, when you look at like, Dennis Rader BTK's face, he just looks like this dad. I mean, there's literally a video of him as like, what was it? A. He was like a dog catcher or something like that. There's a video on YouTube of him being interviewed. And he's got this big old mustache. I mean, he was a dad, of course, but he just looks again, painfully average. And you would never, you would never suspect that that guy murdered a bunch of people.
- [34:24]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And obviously, like, people just look like people. But yeah, he's a good example. And also Ed Kemper, like, they just look like dudes. And, And I guess you could say the same thing for like, Ted Bundy. A lot of people think Ted Bundy is also handsome. So it's. It's like nobody really looks weird. Like everybody is just a human being, but it really is just the fundamental normalcy of them that is so creepy.
- [34:46]
Heath
Because, you know, obviously we know that serial killers aren't just walking around with a big scar on their face, you know, or missing one eye, wearing an eye patch or something.
- [34:55]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Scars are so scary, Heath.
- [34:56]
Heath
You know what I'm saying? Like a big old scar through. Down across their eyes.
- [35:00]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
That's what I mean. It's like. Well, yeah, they just look like people. But I know what you're saying.
- [35:04]
Heath
Yeah, like the majority of serial killers are not, you know, are not noticeable as serial killers. Physically.
- [35:11]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, they're just people. But Again, like horrible people, of course. But like we were highlighting earlier, much of the time they have normal jobs because they need to. They're normal, quote, unquote, normal members of society.
- [35:24]
Heath
They have to fit into society, but.
- [35:26]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
They'Re harboring a deep, dark secret. Well, guys, that was all so interesting to dive into. And it leads us right into the fictional serial killer that I created for my book, Night Watcher. Contrary to what the title may make you think, the killer is actually called the Hiding Man. And I used so much of the information that we presented today to craft a killer that feels real. So here is a description of the book in what Geneva Rose declares a chilling and atmospheric tale, Nola Strait is being watched again after an encounter with a notorious serial killer in the Pacific Northwest. As a child, Nola has grown up and tried her best to forget her traumatizing night with the Hiding Man. She installed security cameras outside her Oregon home, never spoke of her experience, and now hosts Night Watch, a popular radio call in show her semi famous father used to run. When coincidences lead Nola to believe that she is being stalked, and a caller on Nightwatch has a live incident with an intruder in the caller's home, the description of whom is chillingly familiar, Nola is convinced that the Hiding man has resurfaced and is coming for her. With a mysterious next door neighbor lurking in the shadows, more people getting hurt, the police not taking her concern seriously, and evidence pointing towards her own father, Nola decides to become like her listeners, a Night Watcher herself, and uncover the monster behind the Hiding Man's mask. And now I want to play you a clip from the audiobook. I'm gonna include a clip a little bit later on as well, but I really want to set the scene right now. So here is a clip from chapter seven. No spoilers. Don't worry about the Hiding Man. Narrated by the amazing Helen Laser, who plays Nola in the audiobook.
- [37:32]
Helen Laser
I don't like to say his name, not out loud, not in my head. It sounds fanciful. It puts this real monster into a space that could be made to feel fun or contrived. I'm sure that's what he wanted from the start. To reinvent himself as the pure evil he was born to be, with a new name to show for it. If only all serial killers could have foolish media given pseudonyms like the Weepy Voiced Killer or the Doodler. They deserve to be publicly shamed, not glorified. Although I've tried for so many years to stow this all behind me, When I do need to reference that thing, which luckily is incredibly infrequently, I just say him before anyone really knew what he looked like, when he was just a silent phantom in the night, he was referred to publicly as the Hiding man, or so I read on the Internet years after Mia's murder. Victims usually had some sort of idea that they were being watched, followed, stalked. They just didn't know if someone was behind it or if they were working themselves up and imagining it. And that was what made his existence so frightening. He's good at making people feel like they're crazy.
- [38:55]
Heath
Absolutely love it. And I know you guys are gonna love it as well, so please go pick up that book now. We asked you guys on Instagram last week if you had any questions for Daphne about her book, so I'm gonna ask a few of them now for anybody who wants to learn more. So first, let's kick things off with how did you pick the name the Hiding Man? And were there other contenders, like, the Crapping Man?
- [39:20]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I know you know all these answers, so I wanted. You know, a lot of serial killer names are really kind of basic. Like, we just gave so many examples, but the Green River Killer, like, we see, or the Portland Serial Killer, like, they're usually really generic because they're often given by the media. And when I was trying to figure out if I wanted the name to be given by the media for the Hiding man or for the killer in general or if I wanted him to create it himself, I just thought that something a little bit more basic made more sense. Something that wasn't too clever.
- [39:57]
Heath
So it felt more realistic.
- [39:59]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, more realistic and to the point. Like, I wanted it to be kind of boring on purpose, and I wanted it to relate to his motive and not just make him the Portland Serial Killer, the Oregon Serial Killer, or whatever. So I had, like, a list of all these other ones. I specifically remember sitting in our hot tub with you, Heath, like, reading you this list of names that I came up with. And it was night, and I was a little creepy.
- [40:24]
Heath
I don't even remember some of the old names, to be honest with you. But I'll tell you. Yeah, go ahead.
- [40:29]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Because you were like. Like I was reading them. You're like, no, no. Like, we. Because there's some bad ones in here. So I really wanted to do the Night Watcher. That was, like, the first thing I thought of. But I thought that it sounded way too much like the Night Stalker. Even though I guess it doesn't matter, because this is fiction. But Then I decided to make her radio show called Night Watch. I know a lot of you guys know I have a podcast, Night Watch. I stole it from myself from my book.
- [40:54]
Heath
Amazing.
- [40:55]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Love that I wrote it in the book first, so. And the listeners, by the way, are called Night Watchers. So the book is called Night Watcher because she, like I said, is kind of a night watcher herself, trying to figure out what's going on and watch her own back. So some of the other ones I thought of were like, the M.O. right, is that he's a stalking killer and he scares his victims beforehand by stalking them and making them, like, making them know he's there.
- [41:24]
Heath
Yeah. Without actually, like revealing himself right away.
- [41:27]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Exactly. Like in a very subtle way. So I thought of like, these are so bad. The Lurker. I was gonna do the Hidden man, and then I decided to do the Hiding man, the stitched. Because he has a stitched mask. And I was like, no, yeah, the Cloaked Lurker.
- [41:45]
Heath
Okay.
- [41:46]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
The Dragger is on this list, even though he doesn't do that. But I was like, I kind of like that. No, the Night Chaser, the Dread, the Cruel One. Just bad.
- [41:57]
Heath
The Cruel one sounds a little like the Grinch almost. The cruel one.
- [42:02]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I just see of like the mean one.
- [42:03]
Heath
The mean one. Mr. Grinch. I'm surprised the hash slinging slasher was not.
- [42:08]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Oh my God.
- [42:09]
Heath
On the list there.
- [42:09]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Fun fact. He has a hash slinging slasher tattoo on his. On his wrist.
- [42:13]
Heath
I do have. Yeah, from spongebob.
- [42:15]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Love it.
- [42:16]
Heath
So anyway, so what made you write this book and just write a book in general?
- [42:22]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I always wanted to write a book. You know, we always. We all have our childhood dreams. I always wanted to write a book. I wrote a novella when I was 19 and I actually, when I was in high school, I was really focused on becoming a director and a screenwriter. And so I was writing short psychological thrillers with my best friend Madison at the time. And. And I kind of just got into storytelling that way and then I got into writing poetry and I let the director screenwriter dream go because something that is so difficult about that dream is that you need so many people and so much money to make that happen. Whereas when you write a book, you can just do it yourself. And I'm very self motivated and I'm not a good delegator. So in my head I'm like, oh, well, I might as well just do this myself. Right? So writing a book was like, this is something that I can do on my own for free. That I can be fully in charge of, you know, so I knew, I knew that I always wanted to write a book. And then this book came about because I. I felt like because of Going West, I wanted to write a book about a serial killer and kind of lean into all my knowledge there of all the true crime cases that we've covered.
- [43:31]
Heath
I mean, obviously, if you guys didn't already know, Daphne is a spooky one. So she loves, she loves all the spooky things. So obviously if she was going to write a book, it was going to be either a horror or a thriller.
- [43:43]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, of course. I mean, that is the genre for me. But I. I don't know. I also specifically, like, I was trying to figure out, okay, I want to write about a serial killer, but I don't know where to go with it. And I was making breakfast and I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts, Monsters Among Us. It's like a paranormal call in show, but you don't call in live. He. You call in and you leave a message for him and he plays it and then he gives his opinion afterwards. And I was like, man, I really wish I could have a show like that because that's so fun to have people call in. And what if you were live on the air? Like, coast to coast.
- [44:15]
Heath
That's what I was gonna say. Coast to coast.
- [44:17]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, exactly. Like, that concept is so fun to me, I think, especially coming from true crime and how serious it is and how devastating it is and real it is. I was like, this would be so fun, but alas, I don't have the time. And then I was like, wait, maybe I'll make my protagonist job a paranormal radio show host. And then like, the whole idea just came to me that day. And then I spent the next four days writing the outline.
- [44:43]
Heath
Well, which I think really, you know, the fact that Night Watch is involved in the story is really fun, a really fun aspect to the book and to kind of bounce off of that last question, what was the very first seed of the idea for Night Watcher?
- [45:00]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
So other than listening to Monsters Among Us and deciding that that's what I wanted, I wanted there to be a radio show in it. A few months earlier, when we were living in Portland, Oregon, I knew that I wanted to base it in Portland because I love that, that, like, gloomy Pacific Northwest atmosphere.
- [45:17]
Heath
Oh, and we had the absolute best view from our deck. It was incredible.
- [45:21]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, yeah, Our house in Portland is what inspired this book. That was like the first thing, because Heath and I had this Beautiful house on this hill that overlooked the city. It's just like how I describe it in the book.
- [45:33]
Heath
And it had the most perfect creepy ass street light right down below that. That deck.
- [45:40]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. So all those like very real things play into the book. And then he remember how our next door neighbor was like really sus.
- [45:48]
Heath
Oh yeah. Oh that. I think. Wasn't there one time where like we thought we saw like a little kid, like a little. Did like a little ghost kid or something.
- [45:55]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
No, we literally did. Like we guys, we never saw our neighbor ever. And we always just saw like the light would be on and their, their.
- [46:03]
Heath
Balcony was like right level with our balcony so we could see from our deck right into their house and their deck.
- [46:11]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. Because we were perched on the same hill. So we never saw the people, like to this day never saw the people that lived in that house. But one day there were these two kids running through the dining room and the lights were off. And it was like towards the end of the day, but it wasn't night yet. And that was the only time we ever saw life activity in the house other than like a light on or something like that. So all these happenings at that Portland house really made me know that that was the setting that I wanted.
- [46:38]
Heath
Of course. And you know, the gloom, as you mentioned in the, in the Pacific Northwest is like a huge kind of motivator for creepy tales.
- [46:47]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
We love a PNW thriller like you and I like Fear and that rocks the cradle. Like that's our favorite setting.
- [46:54]
Heath
Yeah, it really is. Now our next question is, how did you come up with the mask and why did you give him one?
- [47:02]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I felt like, you know, on this show we try to be as respectful as we can. We never want to sensationalize a serial killer. But I felt like because this was fiction, I could do that and explore that and really lean into the creep factor of it. And I thought that that would best be done by giving him a mask. I really wanted to write this like a horror movie.
- [47:22]
Heath
Yeah.
- [47:22]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And our favorite horror movies have masked killers like Scream and Halloween. That's just how it goes. So I knew I wanted him to have a mask. But I'm also not an artist. I'm not an illustrator. Like I was like, how am I going to come up with something unique that hasn't been used in a movie or a book? Like, it's so hard to think of something like that when that's not your wheelhouse.
- [47:40]
Heath
Sure.
- [47:41]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
But years ago I started a candle company and I had just been exposed recently to the COVID of and the book itself, the ghastly crumb, Tiniest by Edward Gorey. And on the COVID there's this skeleton man in a top hat with an umbrella. And I thought he looked so cool. That's Death. That's the character Death.
- [48:05]
Heath
Yeah, Death.
- [48:05]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. And I. My dad is an artist, and so I said, can you draw me, like a creepy man? To put on my fall scented candle, I wanted, like, a chic, simple label, but I wanted it to be kind of creepy. Like, I don't know what the hell I was thinking.
- [48:20]
Heath
You were young and having fun.
- [48:21]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. This was before going west. And so my dad drew up, like, 15 plus creepy dudes on this piece of paper. Like, he sketched it with pencil, and he sent me a picture of it, and they were so cool. Like, there were so many cool characters on it. And so when I was coming up with the Hiding man and thinking of where can I pull this inspiration? I was like, I'm gonna revisit dad's sheet of monster men. Because I was like, he made this for me, and maybe I'll try to repurpose one of these characters.
- [48:50]
Heath
And then it just kind of evolved from that point.
- [48:52]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. There's this one at the top. It's just a head and all. Most of the other ones have bodies, or at least like, top half of their body. And my dad's from France, so he wrote Letette next to it, which is the head. And it's a guy that looks like kind of like a skeleton, but he has, like, stitching on his eyes. And I was just really drawn to that image. So then I decided to make his whole mask, like, a stitched situation on his mouth and his nose, and then his black outfit. But it was inspired by my dad's drawing.
- [49:25]
Heath
Well, I absolutely love his outfit choice. The fact that, you know, he's got the black cloak, the black boots, the white mask with the black stitching. I mean, it really is just a very creepy and very unique serial killer.
- [49:40]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
It's actually really fun because our really good friend Jessie Pray, she is one of the hosts of Love Murder, a true crime podcast. Her daughter drew the Hiding man for the book. So there's an illustration of him in the beginning of the book that she drew for the book. So that was really fun.
- [49:58]
Heath
Yeah, Very cool. I mean, and she did a great job as well, so.
- [50:01]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
She did.
- [50:02]
Heath
You can see that image, that drawing in the book when you guys go pick it up and read it.
- [50:07]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah.
- [50:09]
Heath
So our next question is, did having going west make it easier to create a fictional investigation. Did you do, you know, additional research for the book?
- [50:18]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. So, you know, like I said, I really wanted to write about a serial killer because of Going West. It just felt like I wanted to use what I knew in that sense to make sure I could write a book and that I enjoyed the process, which I absolutely am obsessed with it, so. But I did have to do a lot more research because we're not detectives, as you guys know. So I read a police handbook. I did so much research. I watched so many videos of, like, police stations and procedure. Like, it really dove into that side of things because we have a POV in the book of Detective Jack Delacy. And so I really wanted to be true to his character and really get to know what it would be like to be somebody actually in his shoes.
- [51:05]
Heath
And that's why a lot. I think a lot of people that have already read the book really give praise to the fact that it's very accurate to real life and how things operate.
- [51:15]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
I hope it is. I tried really hard. And then something like, in one of the chapters, we talk about the. The neck wound of one of the victims. And I wanted everything to be, like, anatomically correct. I wanted the wound to sound like it really happened. And I remember I was, like, trying to think back to cases that we covered where we talked about somebody's throat being slit. And I remembered that that's exactly what happened to Nicole Brown Simpson. And so I looked through her autopsy report and used a lot of what I found there to help me describe this particular wound. So, yeah, having Going west really helped.
- [51:52]
Heath
Now, I gotta ask the question that most of you guys are probably wanting to know about. What is the scariest thing about this book other than the Hiding Man?
- [52:04]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, I honestly, like, it's been really nice to see a lot of early reviews and people saying that this book really scared them, because at the end of the day, again, this is a fictional story. And I really wanted it to be a scary horror story that mimics reality. But I think that really is the scariest thing about it, is that somebody like the Hiding man could very much exist and has, in many different forms, existed over time and taken people's lives after terrorizing them. So I think the scariest thing is, like, you know, we'll watch a movie, and if there's a killer in it or something, it's so much scarier if it could happen.
- [52:37]
Heath
Yeah, and we've talked about that before, about how, you know, like, ghost films and stuff like that. Paranormal films, they. They don't often feel as scary or monsters or something like that because you're like, well, I kind of know that those things don't exist. But when you.
- [52:54]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Surreal, he.
- [52:55]
Heath
Well, no, you know what I mean, though. I know, like, monster movies and things like that. Like, obviously, Jason.
- [53:01]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
There's a lot of. That's a gray area.
- [53:03]
Heath
Yeah, yeah. Like, Jason Voorhees is not really not going to. You know, like, in Jason Lives, where he gets. They put the, like, lightning rod in his chest.
- [53:13]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Resurrected, and then he's.
- [53:14]
Heath
He's resurrected. It's like, that's not going to happen. Of course we know that. Yeah, There's. Nobody has superhuman strength. But when you think about, you know, films like Scream, for example, which is also a great slasher, we talk about the fact that they're real people that are dressing up. They're real killers that could happen. Which also, there was a case that the. The killers were inspired by the film Scream. Yeah, they dressed up just like, you know, the movie, and they went and they killed this girl in. In Idaho. So, yeah, I mean, when you mimic real life, it really does make things a lot more scary.
- [53:54]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Exactly. Actually, my brother is reading the book right now, and he was texting me last night that he was. He, like, woke up because there was a sound. Hold on. What did he say? He said, last night, I swear to God, I was, like, half asleep when I heard something loud drop in my room. I instantly shot up thinking, bro was out to get me. I was so shook because nothing had fallen down. So, like, my brother's reading it and he's thinking, because this is about a real killer or not a real one. But. So, you know, you have that fear of, like, is he in my house? Is he watching me? So I. I really focused on making that as scary as possible.
- [54:34]
Heath
Well, the last question that we have from you guys is, are there more books coming after Night Watcher?
- [54:41]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yes. So I. I mean, like I said, I have wanted to be an author for so long. This has been such a dream of mine. And it was so great because writing Night Watcher made me realize that it is a dream of mine. It wasn't just something I thought I wanted to do, but it's something that I really deeply enjoy doing. When I'm not writing, I'm kind of sad. Like, I just love it. Actually, before I came up with the idea for Night Watcher, which was originally supposed to be called. Supposed to be called the Hiding Man, I thought of a totally different idea, and I just Felt like it didn't feel right for my first book, so I wanted to think of something else. But I still loved that idea. So I ended up writing that other idea for my second book, which is going to come out next summer. I already finished it. It's in the process of being edited with my publisher right now.
- [55:28]
Heath
Let us know what that one's called.
- [55:30]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Well, right now it's called the Season of Sinking, so I don't know if that's going to change, but that's what it's called right now. And it's about two sisters on a lake outside of Seattle, Washington.
- [55:43]
Heath
All of your books take place kind of on the West Coast, Pacific Northwest. Is that something that you feel like just inspires you to write these stories?
- [55:51]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah. I mean, thanks to. To you. I love the Pacific Northwest. It just, I don't know, like being from la, I think. I think because it's like you want what you don't have. So I feel like it's not. I can't really romanticize where I live, if that makes sense and where I'm from. Whereas the gloomy Pacific Northwest, where it's rainy and dark and there's so many trees and forests and coastline like that, to me is so appealing.
- [56:17]
Heath
Oh, I romanticize where you're from. Have you ever seen Point Break before? Come on.
- [56:21]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
You know you and I are literally opposite like that. But yeah, it's. I love it. The Lakes thriller is gonna be so fun. And I'm outlining my third book right now, which will then come out a year later. So you can just expect a book every year from me.
- [56:36]
Heath
Yeah. So just to let you guys know, there is gonna be more great books coming out by Daphne Wollsoncraft.
- [56:45]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Thank you, Heath. I love you. Thank you guys for your questions and for listening to this special episode of Going West. I appreciate all of you for being here and just listening to our show and everybody who has bought or will pick up my debut thriller novel, Night Watcher. I really couldn't have done it without all of you guys being here and letting me continue to dive deeper into true crime cases and learn the ins and outs of that world with Heath twice a week. And I do want to leave you guys with a clip from chapter one of Night Watcher. Here are the first two pages, narrated by Will Collier, who is the amazing voice actor behind Chapters from the perspective of Detective Jack DeLacy as well as the chapters from the Hiding Man's point of view in my book.
- [57:33]
Heath
Enjoy.
- [57:35]
Will Collier
His breath is heavy against the mask with only Thin slivers of air available through the mouth slit he cut out himself. But wearing it completes his transition like new skin, letting him embody the man of his choosing, his making. He's finding it loathsome to remove the newly created mask from his head, nearly wishing it would melt into his flesh and become his authentic face. With his non dominant hand, he scribbles the Portland police department's address on the front of the mailer and thinks still of the screams and the sirens approaching, the dead woman's house and the pigs finding his slaughtered hen. A tight smile forms beneath the fabric. He knows this is only the beginning. He's just getting started.
- [58:34]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West.
- [58:38]
Heath
Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Remember, Daphne's debut thriller novel, Night Watcher is out right now. You can buy it anywhere you get your books. And for you people that are overseas, you can get it on audiobook. So there you go.
- [58:55]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
And Kindle.
- [58:55]
Heath
Oh, and Kindle.
- [58:56]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Thank you so much. And hopefully again, we'll have some hardcover release dates for other countries soon. But again, big thank you to all of you. Thank you for listening to this episode of. I hope you enjoyed it. Heath and I really had fun diving into more of the statistics side of things and learning a little bit more of that background of serial killers because we've never done that before.
- [59:16]
Heath
Yeah, this is something we've never done. And hope you guys really enjoyed this one because, yeah, as you said, it's, it's very different, but something that we've kind of always wanted to do. An episode like this, it kind of.
- [59:26]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Gives us all like a foundation of understanding. Not that we necessarily need to understand. Well, I don't care.
- [59:31]
Heath
I don't think we ever will psychologically. Unless you are a serial killer.
- [59:35]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Yeah, then maybe you get it. But you know, it was. It was really cool to dive into this side of things. And of course, we will be back on Friday with a normal episode.
- [59:45]
Heath
All right, guys, so with that for.
- [59:47]
Daphne Wollsoncraft
Everybody out there in the world, don't be a stranger.