← Going West: True Crime
Going West: True Crime
The Jack Family Disappearance // 532
00:59:39
In August of 1989, a 26-year-old man in Prince George, British Columbia was given an unexpected lifeline when a bearded stranger at a pub offered him and his partner short-term work at a logging ranch nearby. With two young children, desperation for employment outweighed caution. Later that night, a witness saw the family pack their belongings and step into the man’s truck outside their home. But they were never seen again. This is the disappearance of the Jack family.
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- [00:02]
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Heath
There.
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- [01:30]
Heath
Is Going On True Crime fans. I'm your host he and I'm your host Daphne and you're listening to Going West.
- [01:37]
Daphne
Hello everybody. Thank you for tuning in. So over on our bonus episode series, it's called Real Crime, which by the way has almost 150 full length ad free bonus episodes of cases that we have not covered on Going West. We mostly like to cover solved cases because we really want to utilize our larger platform on Going west to highlight cases that need more eyes. But we were fully ready to use today's case for a bonus episode because it takes place in Canada and we also do a lot of international cases over on our Patreon Apple podcast bonus series. But after diving into this one, we knew we had to cover it here because this story needs way more attention and it is freaking wild.
- [02:23]
Heath
Yeah, it's crazy. Just the details and how close I feel like investigators really are. Like there is kind of, kind of a suspect that a lot of people are pointing at.
- [02:33]
Daphne
Oh, and we're going to dive into him so much because like that's honestly one of the craziest elements of this case is who this suspect is and why Heath and I fully believe that.
- [02:42]
Heath
He'S responsible and why he's been free for this long.
- [02:46]
Daphne
It's truly crazy. So without further ado, let's just dive right in.
- [02:50]
Heath
All right, guys, this is episode 532 of Going west, so let's get into it.
- [03:02]
Daphne
Foreign In August of 1989, a 26 year old man in Prince George, British Columbia, was given an unexpected lifeline when a bearded stranger at a pub offered him and his partner short term work at a logging ranch nearby with two young children. Desperation for employment outweighed caution, because later that night, a witness saw the family pack their belongings and step into the man's truck outside their home. But they were never seen again. This is the disappearance of the Jack family. Doreen Jack was born on April 24, 1963 in British Columbia, Canada, near a small village called Burns Lake. Now, Burns Lake is surrounded by six Indigenous first nations groups, including the Czechlodic Carrier Nation, which Doreen and her family were members of. One of five daughters, Doreen and her four sisters, Marlene, Laureen, Jocelyn and Charlize, suffered from a very traumatic and difficult upbringing. Like as toddlers, the girls were abandoned by their mother, which led them to be primarily raised by their father. And this just ended up introducing even more trauma because their dad was physically abusive as a result of his alcoholism. On many occasions he would even allegedly force them to sleep outside in the cold. So I mean, this guy was cruel. He was such an irresponsible parent, like, to say the least, because he would also be gone late at night drinking heavily at local bars oftentimes. And like, get this, he would meet fellow bar patrons and hang out with them after hours while his daughters waited home alone. But sometimes he would bring these like, friends of his home. And like their father, Doreen and her four sisters father would allow these men to sexually abuse his daughters that he would bring home from the bars.
- [05:53]
Heath
Yeah, this guy is just a complete piece of shit.
- [05:56]
Daphne
Like in every way, their childhood was just so traumatic. Unfortunately, home was really not a safe place for any of them. But the sisters really stuck together and they were there for one another in spite of the abuse within their house. But then when Doreen and her sisters were young, they were sent to the Le Jack Residential School near Fraser Lake, which is about a 45 minute drive away from the Burns Lake area where they grew up. And I'm sure many of you already know, but residential schools were those super horrific boarding schools that were literally designed to rip indigenous culture away from kids. According to an article from the Canadian Encyclopedia Historical trauma occurs when trauma caused by historical oppression is passed down through generations. For more than 100 years, the Canadian government supported residential school programs that isolated Indigenous children from their families and communities. So in simple terms, the Canadian government strived to erase Indigenous cultures and assimilate children into Euro Canadian society. So Indigenous kids at residential schools were stripped of their culture and forbidden from speaking their Native languages. And the treatment of them was often abusive and coercive. The article also discusses the impact on Indigenous students after graduating from residential schools, saying as generations of students left these institutions, they returned to their home communities without the knowledge, skills or tools to cope in either world. So, you know, these poor girls, they were abandoned by their mother, they were abused by their father and the people that he would bring into their home, and then they had to go to a residential school. And this is just Doreen's background. Like, this isn't even what today's story is about. So it's just extra devastating that Doreen's entire life really was surrounded by hardship and abuse.
- [08:00]
Heath
Yeah. I mean, obviously it's just horrible that these schools existed in the first place or even at all.
- [08:06]
Daphne
Yeah. As if they. They hadn't dealt with enough.
- [08:08]
Heath
Right. But luckily we don't see residential schools operating the way that they used to back in the day because most of them have been shut down through, thankfully. And this process started while these sisters were in school. Le Jack specifically opened in 1922, but by the 1970s, the federal government began phasing out the residential school system amid mounting criticism and abuse. So they did attend Lejac residential school for a while. But then in 1976, when Doreen was 13 years old, the residential school closed down, and she then attended a live in Catholic high school in this same area instead. And while living away from home should have been a reprieve from the abuse that Doreen endured as a child. Unfortunately, the cycle continued because when Doreen was about 16 years old, she was allegedly raped by an unnamed male at this Catholic school and became pregnant as a result of this abuse. And of course, we can't ask Doreen about this, and there is some kind of conjecture on it, but it is worth noting all of this. There is no public information on who did this to her, but on February 28 of 1980, Doreen gave birth to her first child, a little boy that she named Russell. From the start, Doreen raised baby Russell with nothing but love, despite the hardships of the situation and being a single teen mother. And around this same time, Doreen met A young man named Ronnie, born Ronald Paul Jack Ronnie was born on March 29, 1963 in British Columbia, Canada. Ronnie was only about a month older than Doreen and he also grew up near the village of Burns Lake. So he was also a member of the czloticarrier Nation. Now Ronnie and Doreen were never actually married as far as sources show, though they were considered common law partners. And it seems like they both had the family name. Jack and Doreen's sisters also have this surname, so it would kind of make sense since they both were a part of the Cheslolada Carrier Nation, which was a somewhat small group of people. Like maybe it was a common last name that others had within this Chesloda Carrier Nation. But anyway, Ronny Jack had several brothers and the boys were raised by their mother, Mabel. Ronnie was an active guy who loved the outdoors and dancing to his favorite tunes. And like his girlfriend Doreen, he also knew the struggles of growing up in an Indigenous household. While he was really close with his mom, Mabel, things for the family weren't always easy. But details of his childhood are not as widely reported as Doreen's. So we don't really know the specific hardships that he struggled with other than, you know, like the general oppression of Indigenous communities and also like the potential struggles of being raised by a single mother. Obviously a single but loving mother.
- [11:03]
Daphne
So Heath just told us that Doreen had Russell outside of her relationship with Rani because it seems like they did meet after Russell was born. But some sources suggest that Doreen and Ronnie were together prior to the birth of Russell. A lot of people actually just assume that Russell is Ronnie's biological son, but it really, like many sources, make us believe that Russell came from an assault on Doreen. But either way, they were together around this time and Rani was known to be very supportive. You know, Doreen wasn't fully in this alone. And when Doreen and Rani were both 17 years old, she moved into Ronnie's mother's house, remember Mabel with him in South Bank, British Columbia, which is where the Chisholada Carrier Nation is based. Cuz this is only about an hour away from Burns Lake with Doreen and her young son now living in Ronnie's family home. Ronnie, of course, helped raise little Russell, especially because they're in a relationship, and he happily took on this fatherly role and reportedly loved and cared for baby Russell as his own. Then a few years into their relationship, when little Russell was about 5 years old, Ronnie and Doreen were ecstatic when their son was Born Doreen's second child, and they named him Ryan. He was born on July 26, 1985. So now they're this family of four. Doreen and Ronnie are in their early 20s, and by all accounts, they were this happy, growing family. Now, Ronnie had been working at a sawmill, but a back injury resulted in him losing his job. As many of you guys know, working at a sawmill is incredibly physical. You would know. Heath, you worked at a sawmill long ago.
- [12:56]
Heath
Yes, I did, yeah.
- [12:57]
Daphne
You were what, like 20?
- [12:58]
Heath
Yeah, I was around like 18 to 20. I worked there for about two years. Pulled lumber off a green chain.
- [13:04]
Daphne
Your dad did the same thing for his whole career. I mean, it's like incredibly physical.
- [13:09]
Heath
Yes, it is very, very hard work.
- [13:11]
Daphne
So no surprise that a job like this, that he would get a back injury on this job.
- [13:17]
Heath
Absolutely.
- [13:18]
Daphne
So this was really tough. Obviously, back injuries can be major. They can really put you down and out. So for a while, Ronnie was kind of just recovering and he was out of work. And the years kind of continued to pass like that. Now we're in the late 1980s, and the Jack family was still experiencing severe financial hardships, which seems to have a direct connection to today's story. Because Ronnie was physically unable to work, the lack of regular income led the family to near poverty. Because then we also know that Doreen has two little babies that she's helping raise. So she was really struggling to find work. Ronnie was totally off his feet for a while. So they reached a point where for many years, they were not able to afford basic needs. Like Doreen had to reportedly steal a bottle of cough medicine for her kids at one point because she did not have the money to buy any. So in hopes of relocating to somewhere with more job opportunities, the young family moved to Prince George, British Columbia, which is a three hour drive east of their hometown. They relied on welfare to get by, and the burden of their financial issues were weighing heavy. So Ronnie told his mom, Mabel, that he was in debt with someone for an unknown amount of money. But there is very little information regarding who and why and if it even relates to their eventual disappearances. All we know is literally this fact that apparently Ronnie owed somebody money. Now, during this time, Doreen kind of started drinking heavily to cope with the stresses within the household. But after moving to Prince George, Ronnie was seemingly getting on the mend from his back injury and desperate as ever to secure a job, he and Doreen were determined to provide a better life for their family and their two little kids. So when a promising opportunity presented Itself, it seemed to be the answer to their prayers. But lurking just beyond the horizon was a twist of fate that would distress their families and lead to one of the most troubling mysteries in Canadian history.
- [15:42]
Heath
So on the evening of August 1, 1989, 26 year old Ronny Jack decided to stop by a local dive bar for a drink. Now, the Jack family did not own a car, so Ronnie walked over to the First Liter pub in private. Prince George, British Columbia, just up the road from the family's home. And at the bar he met a man and the two began talking. So Ronnie was venting about his unemployment stresses when this man made an offer that felt hard to refuse. He told Ronnie that he could hook him up with a temporary gig not too far out of town. The job was at a logging camp where the man offered Ronnie a position bucking logs, which by the way, is a forestry term for cutting a delimmed tree into smaller pieces. So it's already delimmed, you just gotta cut it into small pieces, right?
- [16:32]
Daphne
So remember this kind of like lumber style job. Obviously at this point his back is getting better, so he's probably more able to do this probably not terribly comfortably, but he's still like okay in my wheelhouse a little bit.
- [16:46]
Heath
Right. But also again, he is very determined at this point. So amazingly, this unknown man told Rani that Doreen could also have a job at the ranch ranch where there was an open position in the on site kitchen. The jobs being offered were at a logging camp near Klukles Lake. Now, Klukles Lake is a scenic freshwater lake located about 40 miles or 64 kilometers west of Prince George along Highway 16. Now remember Highway 16 because we are going to talk about that here in a little bit. So not too bad. It would be about a 45 minute drive. But remember, they did not have a car, so this kind of posed an immediate issue. But guess what? The man had a solution.
- [17:30]
Daphne
Would you look at that?
- [17:32]
Heath
Well, because in addition to two paying jobs, the man also said that the ranch would provide housing for the whole family right there on site.
- [17:41]
Daphne
Huh.
- [17:42]
Heath
It was like fate that Ronnie had randomly met this man who had this absolutely golden, too good to be true opportunity. But Ronnie, of course, had to consider their two sons. The boys were still really young because Russell was nine years old and little Ryan was only about four years old. But the man said that there was a daycare center on this property where the kids would be taken care of while Ronnie and Doreen worked.
- [18:08]
Daphne
Pretty amazing place to work. You have housing free Daycare and you get to work in nature.
- [18:14]
Heath
Like, yeah, it really sounds like, like we said earlier, just too good to be true. So even though this was only a temporary situation, the income for a couple weeks of labor wasn't going to last them forever. But remember, they were desperate here. And of course, this really did seem like a perfect situation. Too perfect, seriously. But the cash would help pull them out of the financial hole that they were in and put food on the table for the time being. And Ronnie knew that it was worth a shot and it was actually kind of perfect anyway that it was temporary because the Jacks would also be able to return to Prince George just in time for the kids to start school. So Ronnie figured why not go as a family, earn some money, and then come right back to Prince George in a couple of short weeks? So even though they were going to offer housing, Ronnie wasn't even sure how he and his family would get to the logging ranch yet. In another miracle like moment, the man from the bar offered to take them there himself.
- [19:16]
Daphne
Yeah, he basically told Rani that they could pack his truck with some of their belongings and head over to Klukle's Lake that very night. Like, things are moving fast, which is part of why this whole thing is so weird. Like, hey, I got two jobs for you and daycare and a place to live and hey, let's go in a couple of hours. But you know, maybe the, the, the man was already on his way out of town and heading towards the logging ranch. You could look at it that way. You know, Ronnie is just kind of hoping for the best here. But based on something that he tells his mom that I will get into in a second, it does seem like he somewhat had doubts about the whole thing. Like maybe he did see a faint red flag waving.
- [19:59]
Heath
I mean, of course it's not very often that a random person comes up to you and just offers you all of these different things that could improve your life, you know, and it's improvement.
- [20:08]
Daphne
That he very much needs. So he knew he couldn't turn down the opportunity and he agreed. Then Ronnie walked out of the pub and rushed home to share the seemingly incredible news with Doreen. So the house was full of commotion as Ronnie, Doreen and the kids gathered enough stuff to get them through the next couple weeks. And at 11:16pm on the night of August 1st again, 1989, Ronnie called his brother to tell him about the man that he met at the bar and that he, Doreen and the kids would be temporarily leaving for their new jobs. And it's amazing that this conversation even took place, because obviously we don't have. Well, as you guys will see, we don't have any other witnesses to this. This confrontation and this conversation. So this information that we have about what happened at that bar comes straight from Ronnie to his family, because he also then called his mom Mabel, to update her, too, and mentioned that they would be gone for 10, 14 days and that he would call her when they returned. Now, while this whole situation obviously is happening in such a flurry, during the phone call with his mom, Ronnie made one concerning comment that has haunted her ever since. During the brief chat, Ronnie said, you know, not verbatim, but something like, mom, I'm going to work near Kluku's Lake, and if you don't hear from me, come looking. If I don't come back, you look for me between Vanderhoof and Klukol's Lake. So, yeah, it seems like this is what I was talking about. Seems like he maybe thought that something could happen. Obviously not enough to not go, but enough to do the smart thing and tell people in his family where he would be. But that's also the trouble here, because that's where he was told that he would be going and working. But can we even trust that information? You know, probably not.
- [22:11]
Heath
Yeah. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, it might sound crazy to meet a random guy at a bar, secure a job, and pack the stranger's car in the middle of the night only hours after meeting and taking your entire family. But again, they were in dire need of income after going so long without work.
- [22:28]
Daphne
Right. So, like many struggling families would do, they took the opportunity that was presented to them and hoped that everything would work out. You know, after all, it was only a couple weeks, or it was only supposed to be a couple weeks.
- [22:41]
Heath
And then on top of this, I'm sure it kind of made Ronnie feel more comfortable that he'd wasn't just going by himself. He was going with his wife or, I mean, his girlfriend and their two kids. So it's not like he'd be isolated. His whole family would be with him.
- [22:55]
Daphne
And I'm sure this guy was talking it up. He's probably like, oh, yeah, we've got some other kids over there. And, like, beautiful. Like, again, we don't. We don't have their entire conversation because it was just hearsay from what he explained to his family and obviously didn't tell all the details. We don't even know how long they were talking. They could have been Talking for an hour about this, you know, or the other guy was just gassing the place up. So also, this was supposedly just on the outskirts of where they lived. He knows that area. He knows kind of where he's going. Also, the Klukles area, or the Klukles Lake area rather, was thriving in the logging and sawmill industries. So it was believable that this type of opportunity was out there.
- [23:40]
Heath
I mean, yeah, Canada is pretty much known for their logging industry up there.
- [23:44]
Daphne
And I know this is like maybe stereotypical, but the, the stranger apparently kind of looked the part like the guy who's offering this job. Apparently he was a Caucasian man in his late 30s. Remember, Doreen and Ronnie are 26 at this time. So if he was in his late 30s, he would have been a little bit older than them. But he had long reddish hair and a full beard. It's also said that he was wearing a ball cap, a red checkered work shirt, a blue jacket, blue jeans and leather work boots.
- [24:14]
Heath
I mean, basically the Paul Bunyan style.
- [24:18]
Daphne
Yeah, like maybe that's really stereotypical, but yeah, for sure. Like he does. That's like. That's a lumberman.
- [24:23]
Heath
That's a lumberjack right there.
- [24:25]
Daphne
Yeah, that's a lumberjack. Thank you. So this man also was apparently somewhere between 6 foot and 6 inches tall. He's a big, big dude.
- [24:32]
Heath
Wait, he was between six foot and six. Wow. He's really tiny, this guy.
- [24:37]
Daphne
He's only six inches tall.
- [24:39]
Heath
Six inches. He's. He's smaller than Dewey. He's a gnome.
- [24:42]
Daphne
Yeah. Or like a, a fairy. But no, sorry, six feet to six foot. Six. So I guess, I mean, I guess he's an average sized man, but he's believed to have weighed between 200 and 275 pounds, which is a really big difference. But that is what we're working with.
- [25:00]
Heath
Yeah. So we could kind of consider that this guy is a fairly larger man. You know, if you're between 6 foot and 6. 6, you're a pretty tall guy. And then if you're between 200 and 275, that's also pretty big.
- [25:12]
Daphne
Yeah. And I think a lot of this discrepancy came from as we're going to get into the fact that nobody at the bar recognized this guy. And also Ronnie was a little bit on the shorter side. So people were trying to like compare him to Ronnie. And obviously if you just see a random person at a bar, you're not going to clock they're exact. Like that guy that bought you a drink last night. He's like, how tall was he? You know, it's like if you had to think of that in two weeks from now, you'd be like, yeah, I.
- [25:39]
Heath
Want to say, I want to say five, eight right now, but okay, yeah, maybe in two weeks. I don't know, it'll change.
- [25:45]
Daphne
Yeah, it's like, it's, it's, it's hard to gauge that kind of thing sometimes.
- [25:49]
Heath
Right. But also on top of that, it's like, like you're saying, you know, it's this rural bar, you know, people are. Yeah, people are not paying attention to other people necessarily. Like they're sitting there, they're just doing their own thing. I imagine it's probably dimly lit in there. You know, it's kind of a divey bar. So.
- [26:03]
Daphne
Yeah, that's why it's. The description falters for sure. But at least we know the reddish hair, the beard, the outfit, like those were a lot more spot on for this. This guy's like style and general physique.
- [26:19]
Heath
Well, just before 1:30am on August 2, 1989, in the dark of the night, the family of four loaded some personal items into the stranger's truck and they got in. We know this because their neighbor actually witnessed all four of them enter a dark colored 4x4 pickup truck that very night before driving away.
- [26:40]
Daphne
And good thing they saw this because now we have a description of the truck, even though it's not like they have a license plate or anything. But we do have a little description here and then we at least know for sure that they got into a truck and left and that that is what happened.
- [26:54]
Heath
It would have been really, really nice to know, like, the make and model of this truck. But unfortunately, I don't think the neighbor caught that.
- [27:01]
Daphne
Yeah, I think, you know, again, it's just kind of like, oh, there's my neighbors going off. Like, why pay attention to the make and model? You know, it's. Yeah, it's sad.
- [27:09]
Heath
Well, in a time without cell phones, of course, it was expected that their families wouldn't hear from Ronnie and Doreen until they returned home. So when two weeks came and went, the Jack family still hadn't called loved ones to notify them that they had made it back. You know, so assuming that they might have extended the jobs a few days longer, Ronnie's mom Mabel didn't panic quite yet. But when three whole weeks passed, Mabel had a feeling that something was just terribly wrong here. So on August 25, 1989, Mabel reported Ronnie, Doreen, Russell, and Ryan Jack as missing.
- [27:49]
Daphne
For one person to go missing is already a shock, but four. We have two adults and two kids, and these are her grandkids. So she's not only she worried about her son and her son's partner, but she's also like, I need to make sure my little baby grandkids are okay. And I'm sure that kind of warning of Rani's, if you don't hear from me, come looking, was kind of ringing in her ear.
- [28:09]
Heath
Oh. I mean, it had to have been, you know, like, she's. It's already a week past when they were supposed to be back at this point. And you'd think that this would be enough for, like, a speedy and careful investigation. But instead, it was slow moving from the start. So Mabel shared the details with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, AKA the rcmp. And they did begin a search though the home where Ronnie, Doreen and the kids lived and Prince George was searched as well, but nothing there was amiss. Of course, that's not even where they disappeared from, but it was at least clear that they hadn't returned after getting in that truck that night. Now, when Mabel told police about the logging ranch near Klukol's Lake, reportedly nothing came up of its existence, which naturally ignited terror in the extended Jack family, because this was confirmation that this job was, of course, a lie. It was a ruse.
- [29:07]
Daphne
So missing persons flyers were distributed around the area with information on the Jack family and that guy from the bar, based on both what police found, witnesses said, and then, as well as what Ronnie had told his brother and his mom, but nothing helpful came into fruition. So when police interviewed individuals at the First Leader Pub from that night, just hoping that somebody would not only know what this guy looks like, but maybe know who he is or have any helpful information. Because when you think about, like, a small local bar like this, a lot of the time they're filled with regulars and people that frequent it often. But nobody seemed to recognize the bearded man who offered Ronnie Jack the job opportunity that night. Nobody that was questioned said, oh, yeah, that. That's Bill, you know.
- [29:58]
Heath
Yeah, we know Bill from down the road.
- [29:59]
Daphne
So it was almost like maybe this guy.
- [30:01]
Heath
That's Paul Bunyan.
- [30:02]
Daphne
Yeah, right. Yeah, literally. But so it was almost like maybe this guy. It seemed like maybe this guy was not a local.
- [30:10]
Heath
Yeah, like, he just kind of blew through town.
- [30:12]
Daphne
Right. Which is obviously very concerning. And unfortunately, the search ended shortly after it started on September 7, 1989, less than two weeks after the Jack family were reported missing. The Prince George detachment of the RCMP reported the family had been found. Found and the investigation came to a halt. So good news, right?
- [30:38]
Heath
No, not at all.
- [30:40]
Daphne
No. Because this information was wildly untrue and it was a major ball drop by the police. So they basically said, oh, we found the family. And then the Jack, you know, like Mabel Jack was like, where are they? And they're like, oh, we don't know.
- [30:56]
Heath
So obviously you didn't fucking find them.
- [30:58]
Daphne
So like, like, where did that comment even come from? Like who? Or that statement, like, who even said that and why? You know, we could just imagine that the poor Jack family was so excited to receive this news, only to learn that it was somehow misreported. I mean, we're talking about two missing children and their parents. Like, it is completely unacceptable that it was falsely reported and really makes one question the intentions of the RCMP when it comes to indigenous cases, at least back in these times. But even after it was clear that this was not real and that they were not found, the case remained stagnant. It was reopened in a kind of haphazard effort the following year, 1990, when a composite sketch of that bearded man from the pub was created. Which it's honestly, have you seen the sketchy. That's like, it's creepy.
- [31:50]
Heath
Yeah, it is pretty creepy.
- [31:51]
Daphne
I mean, he's like a wiry, like his eyes are kind of scary. Like, I don't know. It's a weird composite sketch, but it.
- [31:58]
Heath
Does look like what they describe this man to look like.
- [32:02]
Daphne
Yeah, and we will post that on our socials if you guys want to go take a look at that. But basically, based on the accounts from two witnesses who saw the man the night that the family disappeared, the drawing shows the scruffy long haired man in question. But unfortunately, the sketch led to no solid leads. And much to the disappointment of the extended Jack family after this, the case completely froze over. That is, until seven years later on January 28, 1996, when an anonymous caller dialed the Vanderhoof RCMP. Remember, the Vanderhoof area is where the Jack family was supposed to be going. So here's what happened. At 8:33am that morning, January 28, 1996, an unidentified. An unidentified man called the police with a pretty bold statement. He said the Jack family are buried in the south end of Blank Ranch. Foreign. I'm sure a lot of you guys are like, Heath and I, life gets so busy. You work a lot, you have a lot of social plans, you're dropping the kids off at school, you're taking a trip. So when life is full and time's tight, which, let's be honest, it's like that most of the time. Instacart helps you stay on track.
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Heath
Yeah, exactly. Really adds up.
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- [36:40]
Heath
So before that quick break, we were talking about how this unidentified man called the RCMP in 1996, explaining that he knew where the Jack family was buried. The call only lasted about 10 seconds and the one word that could have been monumental was totally unrecognizable. The name of the ranch they were apparently buried on, meaning that they'd most likely been murdered. Unfortunately, the audio of the call is not publicly available for us to play, but that is what it reportedly said.
- [37:13]
Daphne
Which I'm kind of surprised because in a lot of cases that we talk about when there's a phone call, the police want to release that for tips in case somebody recognizes like cases have been solved because yeah, people recognize a voice on a call.
- [37:26]
Heath
Exactly.
- [37:26]
Daphne
And especially because they don't know what the ranch is like. Why are they not releasing this? I don't get it.
- [37:31]
Heath
Well, after this call was made, the unknown caller then hangs up and investigators made an appeal across the province asking the caller to phone in again. Now, according to a newspaper article that was written In March of 1996, the missing word in the call was indiscernible. So a copy of the recording was sent to the University of B.C. for analysis. They're not giving up because this one word could change everything in this investigation. Now, it's believed that the blank ranch in the anonymous tip could have been referring to an area called Gordy's Ranch. But searches of that area came up with nothing, which also that could have.
- [38:13]
Daphne
Still been it, but I'm sure it's a large property. Oh, of course. This is really tough.
- [38:19]
Heath
Well, luckily the RCMP were able to trace where the phoned in tip came from and it led to a home address pretty quickly. So as mentioned, the call was made at 8:33am and that night there was a party at the house in question. Police discovered the party had six to eight people in attendance and four of them were interviewed by the rcmp. And after talking to some of the partygoers, it was evident that no one there that night ever came up as a person of interest in this case. So we really can't be sure if any of those four people were the callers.
- [38:57]
Daphne
And this part is kind of confusing because obviously, like you just said, he. It was at 8:33 in the morning. And some reports say that that night there was a party. But most of the reports say that while that call was being made, there was a party. And it's like, if this was at like 11am Maybe I'd be like, okay, that kind of makes sense. But 8:33am like, literally, who.
- [39:20]
Heath
Yeah, who is having a party? And maybe it was like a party that had gone on through the night and was still going on that morning. You know what I mean?
- [39:28]
Daphne
Which is like, that still feels like.
- [39:30]
Heath
A stress because I can't imagine somebody's just waking up at 7am and they're like, hey, you guys ready to get drunk? Let's go.
- [39:37]
Daphne
Well, this was a Sunday, but yeah, I mean, it's like, I'm just trying to think like, I mean, January. It's like if there was like a sports viewing party, like, I'm trying to think of anything that would be like that.
- [39:47]
Heath
I was kind of thinking maybe like more of like a barbecue type party.
- [39:51]
Daphne
8:33 barbecue.
- [39:53]
Heath
Pretty weird, but.
- [39:55]
Daphne
Because you would imagine then that people would have already, you know, been there. But that's why it's kind of hard because maybe people say that maybe the reports say that it was that night because why would it be relevant if there was a party that night? If the call, you know, if the party wasn't happening at the time of the call, then it's not really relevant to the call.
- [40:13]
Heath
And I think what's really important here is that, you know, the call was made the same day as the party. So it's not like the call was made that morning. And then a week later the cops go to investigate and they walk in and it's like, well, I don't know who made a call two weeks ago? You know what I mean? It's like somebody there was there that day and made that call.
- [40:34]
Daphne
Right? So who was it? And also, why did they make that call? Was it a joke? Not that that's funny. Did they have a guilty conscience and they were responsible? They wanted to just drop the tip and move on? Did they hear a rumor or know the person responsible and this was their way of dropping the hint and getting it off their chest? There's so many questions that come along with this because we don't know if we can trust it. And we also don't even know what the Hell, they said so. It's almost like, hey, well, then what's the point? But I think if anything, if this is true, then it does point even more so to the idea of foul play, which feels like really, in my opinion, the only solution here.
- [41:12]
Heath
Well, if only this person had called in again with a clearer message, because there is no record that another admission came in, like, this person never called back. And no answers were found in regards to this tip. Now, regarding the route that the family would have driven to get to the Ku Klu. Kul. Sorry, that's a hard word. Klukol's lake area, if that's even where they were headed. One thing was burned into the minds of many. And remember what I told you guys to note earlier on in this episode, we talked about Highway 16. Now, we have discussed this in the past because this highway is the highway of Tears, which is a long stretch of Highway 16 that runs essentially all through B.C.
- [41:59]
Daphne
Yeah, and into Alberta. It's like a thousand miles long.
- [42:02]
Heath
Well, since around 1970, dozens of mostly Indigenous women have vanished or been found murdered along this lonely road. Now, the name, the highway of Tears, was called, coined at a 1998 vigil where grieving families came together and called it this in memory of loved ones lost. The highway of Tears is a reminder of the violence against Indigenous women and people driven by poverty, isolation, and historical injustices. And it is a painful mark of how much work is still needed for justice and safety in these very communities. So this case having occurred before the name was coined, but amongst other suspicious cases along this highway, is just very, very suspicious.
- [42:49]
Daphne
Absolutely. Well, after all these years, the pain of the family, members of the Jack family has remained profound. Dorian's younger sister, Marlene, spoke at a panel in 2017 at the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. And this was in a portion of its countrywide hearings. Now, we have talked about the MMIWG before or the mmiw, but to refresh, it is a movement and social justice effort addressing the disproportionately high rates of violence, disappearances, and homicide faced by Indigenous women and girls. MMIWG works to raise public awareness, improve data collection, influence policies and laws, support affected families and survivors, and push for systemic change. And the goals are to seek and reclaim safety for Indigenous communities. So during the hearing in 2017, several family members of victims spoke out about their stories and just the horrors that their families have gone through. So Doreen's sister Marlene was one of them, and she bravely spoke at the panel. She talked about her horrific childhood and her time at a residential school. Now, as we know, this case and most indigenous cases were and still are not given the publicity that they deserve. Which, again, is why we decided to make this a Going west episode today instead of a bonus episode, because it deserves so much more attention than it's gotten. And it's really devastating as well, because Marlene stated that back in the day, she was told by police that if she spoke to the media about her sister and her sister's family disappearance that they would withhold updates on the investigation.
- [44:45]
Heath
I mean, who the fuck does that? That is so. That is so petty and irresponsible and just downright wrong.
- [44:52]
Daphne
I mean, I don't even know why they did that unless they just knew that they weren't putting in the effort. And they were afraid. Afraid that more attention on it would mean that they would have to actually care.
- [45:00]
Heath
Yeah. And they would look like failures if there was more attention.
- [45:04]
Daphne
Yeah. So now Marlene is sharing all of this because in 2017, it kind of finally feels like a safe time to get this off her chest, while also sharing a lot of things that she loved about her sister and some of their good memories from childhood. Though I will add that she was trying to share a lot of these details for many years, and it didn't really feel like she got the recognition that she deserved served for her family's case until a lot more recently. So let's get back to the suspect in question, because as we hinted to in the very beginning of this, there is somebody that has stood out in all this. Many Internet sleuths have theories on who the man from the bar could be. And one name circulates. One name in particular circulates from time to time, a man named Pat Carson, who is an alleged Albert, Alberta, Canada, ranch scammer. And he really seems to fit the bill here.
- [46:02]
Heath
Oh, yes, he does.
- [46:04]
Daphne
So Pat has allegedly been known to go under the names Billy o', Brien, Ed Flynn, and also Mike Carson, the latter of which is his own brother's name, which feels pretty ruthless.
- [46:16]
Heath
Like, yeah, like you literally just stole your brother's name and are, like, doing.
- [46:20]
Daphne
Bad shit with it. So Pat is a registered sex offender with charges from the 1980s and 1990s. He was allegedly released from the Fort Saskatchewan Correctional center in January of 2003 after serving 18 months for sexual exploitation. And this was for, quote, touching a young person for sexual pleasure. And this is apparently what he did. Lured young adult victims by placing newspaper advertisements to work at his ranch on a volunteer Basis procured juvenile prostitutes and choked to overcome resistance. Again. Operating in the Alberta area, which is the province directly east of B.C. where the Jack family went missing from, he has been known to use ads to lure individuals to his horse ranch by offering jobs and housing. I mean, come on.
- [47:19]
Heath
Yeah, it feels like this guy is the exact, exact suspect that police are looking for.
- [47:25]
Daphne
Well, claims of Pat being, quote, friendly before then turning predatory seem to match the kind of nice guy act that the man from the bar seemed to put on before taking the Jack family in his truck. Like, maybe that's part of a manipulation tactic. And I think, like, in my opinion, I think the Jack family was lured. I don't think that they. This job was real and that the guy, like, something happened to them by accident when they were there. Like, I think that they were lured. Like, honestly.
- [47:54]
Heath
Yeah, I think everybody probably believes that as well. It really did seem too good to be true, as we mentioned before. And, yeah, I don't think that there actually was this job opportunity out there.
- [48:05]
Daphne
Well, a little bit more on Pat. So there's not a lot of photos of him, and they're all kind of in his slightly older age, but he definitely looks like a man with a larger build. He does look like a redhead, and I say it looks like one because he's, like, always wearing a hat.
- [48:20]
Heath
Yeah. And his hair is kind of, like, graying at this point, but you can tell underneath the gray that at one point he had slightly reddish brown hair.
- [48:28]
Daphne
And you can tell, like, from his facial hair as well, you know, like. Yeah, it's like you could just tell from looking at him. So we will post these photos. He's also. He's white. He looks like a taller, bigger man. Like, he does fit the physical description, at least in photos of him a little bit later of the guy that Ronnie talked to at the bar. Now, it's not clear if police have questioned this man, but there are also claims made in online forums that he abuses the horses on his ranch. And there is so much more that I want Heath to get into because he found so much on this guy. But first, like, he really does seem like such a creep. He seems like a bad dude. And of course, he's not the only guy in Canada that uses this ruse of, like, posting job advertisements or trying to get people to come to his property by talking about a job. But it does just feel, like really weirdly specific as well.
- [49:22]
Heath
It does. It really does line up with what we believe the Jack family experienced that night that they disappeared. You know, Just the fact that he lures these young females to his ranch, says, hey, I'm gonna offer you a job. And then he pervs on these young women, like that's exactly what he does. And I have some things I want to talk to you guys about. Some things I found on some online forums where victims of Pat Carson are talking about the comments he was making towards them, the weird things that he was doing that drove them off the property. So one female victim that was at this horse ranch with Pat Carson explained he spent a lot of time talking about my body, how much I weighed and how I should do some push ups to build up my pectoral muscle. And then he said, I wouldn't even need a bra because the muscles would hold my breasts up. He definitely was obsessed with the Japanese girls that he had out there who would walk on his back. He talked about the naturalness of nudity a lot.
- [50:23]
Daphne
And didn't he want to have like a commune? Yeah, like a nudist commune type of thing.
- [50:28]
Heath
Exactly. That's he was trying to build like this commune. He would essentially he would put these advertisements out, tell these young females, hey, do you want to learn how to train horses? Do you want to learn how to farm? And stuff like that. And then they would come to his property thinking, you know, that they're going to get some life experience from this guy because he does in fact know a lot about horse training and a lot about farming. And so they would get there and then immediately he would start going into proposals to them about, you know, just explicit things. Also, Randy White on Sex Offender Information Registration act said Patrick Joseph Anthony Carson, 46, is an untreated sex offender released from jail and is labeled a predator who engages in extensive planning to secure his victims. He was sentenced last year to 18 months for sexually exploiting three girls under the age of 18 outside of Edmonton, which is in Alberta. He had a previous five year sentence for picking up underage prostitutes and choking them. He will be out on the streets in six months and we do not know where, we do not know what name he will use. We don't know anything about it. And by the way, I just wanted to mention that this article is not recent. It's actually from the site wild horserranch. Associationscam.WordPress.com so it seems like somebody made this blog and then there's a bunch of comments about people talking about their interactions with Pat Carson.
- [52:00]
Daphne
Yeah, there are so many people that have a lot of creepy things to say about him. How like somebody said, you Know, I don't know how much weight we can put into a lot of this because they're just on online forums, so take it with a grain of salt. But somebody said that he had, like, they were. They spent time on his property because they were doing a job there and that he was just really creepy and would talk about their body a lot as well, and that he, like, went to go meet up with somebody. So this person used the opportunity to go into his bedroom and he had, like, a shrine of a Japanese girl in his bedroom that he apparently talked about a lot. So, again, I don't know if that's, like, true, but a lot of people have a lot of different things to say about him.
- [52:40]
Heath
Yeah. And one thing I do want to mention is just because he might not be directly connected to the logging industry doesn't mean that there wasn't some logging that needed to be done on his property. It's very possible because he owns this big ranch that he needs some work done where, you know, wood needs to be chopped up or trees need to be bucked or whatever the fuck.
- [53:02]
Daphne
Yeah. But also, you know, he. He could have kind of maybe back in the day, if he was operating in the B.C. area or in B.C. and in the Prince George area, like, you know, we're talking about in this case, maybe he did other work and then he got really into horses. Ten years later, you know, it's like, who knows? He could have dabbled.
- [53:22]
Heath
It's possible. Because as we know, Pat Carson is really just this, like, outdoorsman kind of guy. Like, he is very. He's very. He's a rancher, of course, you know, and I just.
- [53:32]
Daphne
I think it's really wild that again, he would put these advertisements for jobs to lure people onto his property, and then he would assault them. So it's like, are there other cases that are connected to him? You might be asking, and there actually is.
- [53:46]
Heath
Yeah. Because some people believe that he may be one of the prime suspects in the Amber Tuckero case.
- [53:54]
Daphne
Yeah. Like, he could have been responsible. We covered Amber Tuckero's case back, like, two years ago on 2023. Yeah. And honestly, I kind of want to redo that for a Going west episode. And, you know, we. We don't like to cover. And we. I don't think we've done that before. COVID a bonus episode on Going west because obviously we have our bonus series separate for a reason. But I think that case really does need more attention as well, which is why we do prefer to do. And cover solved cases over There. But that is a crazy case of an indigenous young woman who. There's a crazy phone call associated with that story.
- [54:31]
Heath
Yes. And some people actually believe that Pat Carson's voice matches up with this call that was made by Amber Tucrow. And you can hear a man's voice on the call and it sounds like Pat Carson, apparently, according to people that know Pat Carson. And by the way, this is not just coming out of nowhere. It's not like we're implicating this guy because there's no reason for it. There are actually like Reddit threads, there are websites dedicated to how this man is a predator and how he lures people to his ranch.
- [55:02]
Daphne
Well, let's also talk about the connection between Edmonton and Prince George because they're not near each other. But it's like people move. I mean, God, you and I have lived in different states, so.
- [55:11]
Heath
Sure. And the two provinces are next to each other, which is good to note.
- [55:15]
Daphne
Yeah, B.C. and Alberta are next to each other, but actually you also take Highway 16 to get from Edmonton, Alberta to Prince George, so. And it's like an 8 to 10 hour drive depending on. But unfortunately we don't know. Like there's no public record regarding whether or not Pat Carson was imprisoned in 1989, where exactly he was, if he has a history in bc, but it's definitely possible.
- [55:41]
Heath
Yeah. People are talking about how he was putting these ads up on the forum Kijiji, which I think is just like a semi Craigslist type of thing, but he's been doing this for about over 20 years.
- [55:55]
Daphne
So creepy.
- [55:56]
Heath
Yeah. And it's been consistent assistant. He actually the last one that I saw was from 2019, so that's how, you know, recent. He's been doing these advertisements in Alberta.
- [56:08]
Daphne
Like stay on the lookout. So 2019 marked 30 years of countless questions, false hope and zero concrete answers. Still, even to this day. Currently the Jack family disappearances is an open and unsolved case. But back in 2019, the police conducted a three day search of a property in the Sycoos Nation territory. The property which is located near Vanderhoof in British Columbia, which was of course right where Ronnie told his mom the family were heading that fateful night because the RCMP believes that remains of the Jack family could have possibly been in this specific area. So they used ground penetrating radar during the search, but disappointingly, nothing was found. And just to recap, you know, I really think that Pat Carson is a perfect suspect for this, honestly. But my mind also does kind of go back for A second to Rani owing somebody money. Like, how much money? What was it for? But the reason I don't put too much weight in that is because it would have needed. And not that it couldn't have been, but it would have needed to be so calculated for whoever Ronnie owed money to to send a man to the bar that Ronnie happened to be at and then lure him and his family somewhere. Like, it's obviously possible, but I see this being more of a crime of opportunity.
- [57:37]
Heath
Yeah, definitely. I think that whoever this guy was at the bar, whether or not it is Pat Carson, they obviously lured this family out to wherever the hell it was and killed them for unknown reasons. I don't know if maybe this person was trying to go after Doreen specifically or if they were trying to rob the family in general. It's not like the Jacks had a lot of money at that time, and.
- [58:02]
Daphne
They had two sons. And, of course, Rani is a man. So, you know, you might wonder, well, why? Like, how would this guy even know? But there's so much about their conversation that we might not be aware of. Like, for all we know, Ronnie was sitting there. He got to talking to this guy about his wife and his. What his wife looks like or whatever.
- [58:21]
Heath
And, yeah, maybe showed him a picture.
- [58:23]
Daphne
Yeah, like, who knows? So it's kind of like, okay, why abduct an entire family of four when three of them are male? But it's like, again, whether it was Pat Carson or not, we don't know what this person wanted exactly. Maybe he was trying to recruit more people to his commune and something went south. Like, the possibilities are kind of endless.
- [58:42]
Heath
And maybe this killer knew that these indigenous people were vulnerable because their cases weren't really taken that seriously. So he preyed upon them because it was a good opportunity. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
- [58:55]
Daphne
I mean, it's very possible. I just wish so badly that we had something else here. Like, again, earlier, we talked about how the neighbors saw the truck. If only we had a better description of that truck or a better idea of who this person was. Like, any. Anything else. Oh, I saw them. I saw a struggle happening out in a field somewhere. Like, we have literally no other tips, and I just can't believe that.
- [59:18]
Heath
And I think one thing that all of us can be certain of is that whoever was driving that truck is, in fact, responsible for the Jack family's disappearances. Because it's not like they came forward later on and said, hey, you know, I picked this family up. Then they. Then they went missing something happened. It's like they never came forward either. So that person, in my mind, has to be responsible.
- [59:41]
Daphne
Yeah. And I just wonder if it connects to that call, if that call was for real, like, if that person was serious. Like, how many people were aware of what was going on? Was it this one person who did this, or was this more so an operation? Was there really a farm? Was the whole thing a ruse? There's so many questions.
- [60:02]
Heath
Yeah. Because there have been no traces of Doreen, Ronnie Russell or Ryan jack for over 35 years. It's also awful because the police highly disregarded the story of the missing family for so many years, even though it felt clear from the jump that they had likely been met with foul play. Two young parents and two young children disappeared, and it wasn't even a story that was covered in the news. And I think all of us believe that if this case had gotten widespread media coverage back in 1989, that there's a very real chance that it would have been solved decades ago. But there still may be hope of finding this person that's responsible as we approach four decades of this case being unresolved. So if you have any information regarding the fate or whereabouts of the Jack family, please call the Prince George RCMP at 250-561-3300. If you wish to remain anonymous, contact Canadian Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477 or at www.pgcrimestoppers.bc.ca.
- [61:28]
Daphne
Thank you so much, everybody, for listening to this episode of Going West.
- [61:33]
Heath
Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Again, I just want to put it out there that there is a lot of information online about Pat Carson. I personally feel like things are leading in that direction. So I'm gonna say allegedly this guy is responsible. But, yeah, hopefully this case can be solved and the family of the Jacks can finally get some resolution.
- [61:57]
Daphne
I just can't believe we don't have more on Pat Carson. And the problem is because this case was botched from the start and because so much time has passed and because it's still open and unresolved. Like, police may have questioned him, they may have ruled him out even, but we don't know, of course, because they need to keep the integrity of the investigation and not release certain details to the public, obviously. But it's like, it's so hard not to look at this guy and feel like he could very well be involved.
- [62:26]
Heath
In this, especially when other people are connecting him to other cases, like Amber Tucaro.
- [62:31]
Daphne
And I just wonder again, who made that phone call because police know they ruled out four different people from being involved, but it's like somebody made that call.
- [62:40]
Heath
Yeah, somebody did, but we don't know.
- [62:43]
Daphne
Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We're gonna do like a special post for this one on our socials. We do like custom missing posters a lot, so make sure that you repost that, especially if you're in B.C. because this case deserves answers. We appreciate you guys listening to it and we will see you on Friday.
- [63:02]
Heath
All right, guys. So for everybody out there in the.
- [63:04]
Daphne
World, don't be a stranger. Sam.
- [63:52]
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