Daphne (2:23)

And we're going like all around Oregon too. Yeah, we are two very familiar places for you.

Heath (2:28)

Well, without further ado guys, this is episode 594 of Going West. So let's get into it.

Daphne (3:11)

In January of 1990, a 21 year old man went missing under suspicion suspicious circumstances while working at a Portland, Oregon music venue. When his car was found at the Portland airport after he was reported missing, someone close to him tried to paint a sinister image of what happened to him. But police would soon realize that they had it all wrong. This is the murder of Tim Moreau and the Starry Night Killer. Timothy Moreau, who went by Tim, was born on May 3, 1968, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Tim was welcomed by parents Penny and Mike, and was the oldest of two kids, with his younger brother Charles joining him two years. When Tim was still a toddler, though, he and his family relocated to nearby New Orleans, and that is the place that would shape the rest of his life. He was such a talented and hardworking student and landed himself in his high school's gifted program before graduating in the top 10% of his class. He had a major affinity for music and played the violin for years, even enjoying going door to door to play for his neighbors, which was something that, according to his dad, actually drew homebuyers to the neighborhood for how safe and, like, wholesome their block appeared to be. Because, I mean, is that not the cutest thing you've ever heard?

Heath (4:57)

I mean, it's adorable. And if you know anything about New Orleans, it's. It's one of those places where music is pretty much everywhere. Like, there's just people playing music, busking on the streets. So this was very much in tune with what New Orleans is.

Daphne (5:11)

Yeah. That's why it seems like he was so inspired by. By where he came from. You know, like a true New Orleans kid. He was. His life really revolved around music, and he looked forward to Mardi Gras all year, dragging his family to as many parades as possible. Now, when it came time, when he was in his late teens, he applied to five colleges, and because he was so damn smart, he was accepted to all of them. But he decided on Reed College, which is located in Portland, Oregon, because he was so drawn to the lush wilderness of the Pacific Northwest. How could you not be? So he settled on majoring in philosophy. But according to his peers and roommate, he, like, quickly became disenchanted with this field of study, along with his school and even his fellow peers and students. Later, many of them reported that Tim seemed really disinterested in, like, getting to know them or making meaningful connections, and that he just seemed unhappy there in general. You know, obviously, this is a completely new place for him. He moved across the country.

Heath (6:21)

Yeah. And it's. He didn't know anybody specifically in Oregon, so it's. It would be hard to, like, make some new friends. You just moved across the country.

Daphne (6:30)

Yeah. And because he was so passionate about music, and now he's studying philosophy. It's this this was a big piece of it as well. It was like there were so many factors, but he really wasn't interested in philosophy and he's probably having this crisis of oh my God, now I'm going to college majoring in this and this isn't what I want to do. What do I want to do? So actually By December of 1988, he had taken a leave absence from school, just hoping to explore his career path in the music industry because this is what he felt he was really destined to do, not something in philosophy. So along with a friend named Wade Benson, Tim embarked on a music business venture that they called Riddlers. And with that, they would shut down a part of this local restaurant called Red Sea twice weekly in order to like turn it into a club. So this was an exciting venture for him. He's doing it with a buddy, he's like, maybe this will turn into something.

Heath (7:31)

And this led Tim to what he thought would be his dream job. In March of 1989, 20 year old Tim was hired by the Starry Night Club in Portland's Old Town neighborhood. And it's actually now the Roselyn Theater, which hosts like a ton of different concerts, like the main Audrey Hobert Passion Pit, just to name a few artists that are playing this year. I've actually been to many concerts there and it hosts about 1400 people. Native New Yorker Larry Hurwitz, we're going to be talking about this guy a lot today. Opened the club in 1982 when he was just 27 years old, revamping what had been like a dilapidated church. And so far the venture had been like a raging success at this point. So this is like a really cool happening place to be. This is exactly what Tim wants to do. You know, he wants to work in music and this is kind of just like opening the door for that. So Tim's roommate Jason Lally remembered Tim being, quote, on top of the world after landing this job, adding that Larry took him under his wing. Tim totally worshiped the guy. However, the sheen of this exciting new opportunity began to wear off when he started to suspect that the boss that he looked up to, you know, his guide and mentor Larry, was running a scheme to defraud his customer base. Now, shortly before he vanished, Tim called his parents and admitted that he believed Larry was running an illegal ticketing operation at Starry Night and that it was making him uncomfortable. So he kinda just planned to discuss this sensitive subject with his employer. Now, his roommate Jason pointed to Tim's conscience and penchant to think that people had the best intentions, saying, I can't think of a more trusting person. On Saturday, January 20, 1990, Tim was working that evening's show for John Lee Hooker, who was like a Delta blues artist. But some issues arose during the event when the show became inundated with counterfeit tickets. So one of the show's promoters requested to start checking tickets after hearing this rumor that, you know, quality counterfeits were circulating from an adjacent club which was called Day for Night. Which by the way, I will say is owned or was owned by Larry Hurwitz girlfriend. So it seems like there's a bit of a conflict of interest going on there. Well, Mike Quinn, one of the co owners of Monkey Presents, this is the promotion company, claimed that he confiscated 180 fake tickets that night alone. Mike remembered a woman had one. She pointed right at Larry and said, I bought it from him at Day for Night. I think that later that evening Larry must have said, oh Tim, Tim must have done this.

Daphne (10:28)

Even though this woman is saying it was Larry.

Heath (10:31)

Yeah, she's literally pointing at Larry and being like, no, I bought the ticket

Daphne (10:35)

from that guy and this ticket is counterfeit.

Heath (10:38)

Yeah. So the day after the John Lee Hooker show, Tim spoke with his parents to tell them about the uncomfortable conversation that he had with his boss Larry about these tickets. Mike remembered Tim said that night that he had met with his boss the night of the concert. His boss became very angry. We could tell that Tim was nervous, but he was looking forward to the meeting. Now, Tim was last seen in public on Tuesday, January 23, 1990. And three days later, his parents were starting to grow worried that they hadn't heard from him and he had also failed to show up for work. So on January 26th of 1990, 21 year old Tim's landlord reported him missing.

Daphne (11:25)

On the night of the meeting regarding those counterfeit tickets, Larry claimed to have asked Tim to come to his office when police descended upon Larry. You know, of course, after Tim was reported missing, knowing that Tim was last seen at work, Larry alleged that he actually confronted Tim about the criminal activity taking place at Starry Night.

Heath (11:49)

Yeah, it's like no, it wasn't me, I wasn't the one doing it. It was definitely the guy that's missing now.

Daphne (11:56)

Yeah, and he actually told him to come to my office to talk about that very situation. So in a three hour confrontation he described as emotional, Larry explained that Tim agreed to lead him to where he was socking away the money that he was profiting from the scam. Telling police that it was Tim running the scam. So in his head, he's like, my employee is trying to profit off of my business by selling people fake tickets so that he can make money off the shows that I am selling. Right. But by 10pm Larry described Tim fleeing into the night in what could only be described as a car chase, alleging that he was planning on following Tim, who was gonna lead him to, like, whatever he was using as a headquarters for this counterfeit ticket scam that Tim was allegedly running. So he's like, yeah, I went to go follow him to his headquarters, and he. He, like, sped away, and I had to chase him. So basically, he said, while he was following Tim, Tim took off in his car at a stoplight, and Larry attempted to follow, but lost him. The next day, before Tim was even reported missing, Tim's car was flagged at the Portland International Airport. Larry believed that this. And of course, told the police as much as Larry believed that this pointed to Tim fleeing the state or even the country to avoid penance for his crime. You know, after essentially running this underground counterfeit ticket company, which is just kind

Heath (13:43)

of insane because it's really. That's. That's probably not a huge deal. So I don't know why you would leave the country for that. But, like, I don't know, maybe it was a bigger thing back then. Counterfeit tickets, I guess.

Daphne (13:56)

Well, with this story, you know, police are kind of like, okay, I guess we have to look into this angle because they don't have anything else. There's no crime scene. There's nobody else saying anything about Tim.

Heath (14:06)

Right. And Tim's car being at the airport really does point to him leaving, of course.

Daphne (14:10)

Yeah, absolutely. So detectives dutifully scanned flight logs, but they couldn't find any flight that he was believed to have taken. Of course, this was pre 9 11, but still, there were no logs of Tim Moreau getting on a flight. Portland homicide detective Steve Baumgart explained, quote, he left virtually everything behind. That gives us quite a bit of concern. We consistently come across things that don't lead us to the conclusion that he went away on his own. However, detectives, and especially Tim's family really took issue with Larry's retelling of these events because, like, they're not really believing it, but this is all they have.

Heath (14:53)

Yeah. And they know Tim's character as well. They know it very well. So they're like, tim would not do that.

Daphne (14:59)

Yeah. Literally. Not only would Tim not do any of this, but they made a really interesting point about their cars. So Larry drove a 1985 Pontiac Fiero, which is a sports car. And Tim drove this run down Datsun sedan. So according to his parents, Tim's car was no match for a newer model. If a car chase really did ensue like Larry says it did.

Heath (15:26)

Yeah. And not only Tim's parents, but police believe this as well.

Daphne (15:30)

Yeah, One of the officers said, quote, moreau's car is a piece of shit that'll barely do 55 or 88 kilometers per hour. Her wit drives a sports car. And I gotta say I'm really glad that police were suspicious that they did have these questions because we have a 21 year old kid here, I guess, if you want to say. And then we have a business owner. So I'm glad they're not just saying, oh well, let's just believe Larry for whatever he says and that they're really looking at this like. But does it make sense?

Heath (16:04)

Yeah, it's almost like there's like this almost common propensity to believe the business owner. Like, oh, he's got to be, he's got to be the responsible one. And the employee is probably, probably the one that's doing all this counterfeit shit.

Daphne (16:18)

Especially with Larry essentially saying that Tim was committing a pretty serious crime of like fraud. So the fact that they're still really looking at it is great.

Heath (16:29)

Well then to kind of add on top of this idea that, you know, Tim was involved, according to the police, more copies of the tickets were recovered from Tim's apartment when it was searched following his disappearance, as well as the paper stock that was used to make the tickets. So now they're like, okay, well his car was at the airport. We found some of the tickets and the stock paper in his apartment. So yeah, maybe he did leave.

Daphne (16:55)

Which are very interesting things to note.

Heath (16:58)

Yeah. So from Larry's point of view, at this point, Tim going missing was like an open and shut case.

Daphne (17:04)

Of course it is to Larry. He's like, see guys, see, I'm telling the truth.

Heath (17:09)

But from the very beginning, law enforcement felt that there was just a lot more to this story and even wondered if Larry had planted the paper and equipment in Tim's apartment in order to implicate him in this scheme. He also told police that Tim had experimented with drugs, which while true, I mean, he's a 21 year old kid in Oregon. It didn't necessarily mean that he had disappeared of his own volition and more so pointed to an experimental 21 year old kid. But sadly, the investigation was messed up from the beginning by Larry's misleading tips, and detectives were just at a loss. Tips soon petered out, and the story seemed to dead end at the airport where his car was found. So years passed with no sign of Tim Moreau. In the years following Tim's disappearance, his parents and his brother Charles took 17 trips from New Orleans to Portland in order to determine what happened to him.

Daphne (18:10)

And this must have been so hard for his family, knowing what Tim's roommate had said about the conversation that Tim was going to have with Larry, because Tim had told people in his family and friend group about what he thought Larry was doing. So that's a big factor here as well. That is something that the police are being told, and that's part of why they're looking at this case the way that they are, despite what Larry is saying. But they probably, in their heart of hearts, know that something bad happened with that situation, and they're not getting any closure on it. Nothing's happening.

Heath (18:47)

Yeah, they already have their own suspicions of what probably happened. And I will say that this is kind of like. This is so hard to talk about in cases like this, because it's like. It's not like it happened in Tim's hometown where his parents lived. It's like he's all the way across the country. I mean, not all the way across the country, but you know what I mean.

Daphne (19:07)

Yeah, he's far from home.

Heath (19:08)

Yeah, he's far from home. And so they can't just. They can't make it out there as often as they like. So them taking 17 trips is about as much as they can do. And it makes it so hard because if you're not there and you're not within the circle, you can't really say exactly what was going on before Tim disappeared.

Daphne (19:27)

Yeah, and they don't know the area. They don't personally know Larry. Like you're saying. It's not like, oh, that's Larry. We've known him forever because we've all lived in New Orleans together. So it's really hard for them. I mean, they had to hire private investigators. They offered up rewards multiple times, but to no avail.

Heath (19:45)

Yeah, I mean, they drained their retirement savings, spending more than $65,000 to find their son. But it would take nearly a decade for them to find out the truth. In June of 1990, and I gotta say, I love this guy. Local reporter Jim Redden penned a piece implicating Larry.

Daphne (20:05)

No fear.

Heath (20:06)

Yeah, no fear at all. And remember, this is the year after Tim went missing. So in a subsequent interview, Jim stated Matter of factly, I knew Larry did it immediately. I'd reported on Larry on two previous stories in which he was engaged in very sleazy activities. I'd interviewed him and gotten the chance to size him up. So when I got the call that Tim had disappeared, I knew instantly it was Larry.

Daphne (20:32)

Damn.

Heath (20:34)

Well, Larry was so incensed at this implication that he actually sued both the paper and Jim Retin himself for libel. Clothes, claiming that he had suffered, quote, non economic damages, including, but not limited to humiliation, the scorn of friends, neighbors and members of the community, embarrassment, anxiety, and sleeplessness. But the lawsuit was ultimately unsuccessful and may have actually wound up being like, the catalyst. That was Larry's undoing, if you want to say that. Because Larry alleged financial damages as an outcome of the coverage on Tim's disappearance. And through these claims. Fucking idiot. The IRS discovered that he had failed to file income taxes from 1977 to 1990.

Daphne (21:25)

That's a long 13 years.

Heath (21:27)

Yeah. So if he had just not filed this lawsuit, they would have never looked into it? Well, they probably eventually would have.

Daphne (21:34)

Or at least it would have been ambiguous, like if this led them right to it.

Heath (21:38)

Yeah, Maybe not as soon as. So then the IRS launched an investigation against him which revealed that he had pocketed around $450,000 of undeclared income.

Daphne (21:50)

And that was back then. So inflation says that number is much higher.

Heath (21:54)

Yeah. So he was. He was making a lot of money because he's a fraudster.

Daphne (21:57)

Yeah, 100%. Well, thankfully, Larry's threats and attempted intimidation did not scare Jim off. And he continued his coverage of the case even after leaving the paper that he was writing, which was Willamette Week, and starting his own paper for which he would write dozens more articles about Tim's suspicious disappearance.

Heath (22:20)

So he's like, I'm not letting this go.

Daphne (22:22)

Yeah. And he's like, I know you did this, Larry, and I'm going to prove it. And also let the people know, which is just. Love, Jim. Now, within a year of Tim vanishing, the Portland Homicide Division considered the case a homicide. Like they knew. And it also seemed that they knew, or at least suspected who was behind the crime and just couldn't prove it. Larry's business and personal reputation in the community really suffered under the weight of the accusations. Take that. And thus, both Starry Night and Larry found themselves in hot water again just months later after being accused of swindling his audience. After promising a performance by the band Toto instead of Toto. One time, Toto frontman Bobby Kimball, who left the band in 1984. So two years after the release of their hit song Africa, appeared on stage with a handful of musicians, obviously at Starry Night, who had never appeared with the band. He kind of, like, threw together a band.

Heath (23:27)

Yeah.

Daphne (23:28)

To play as Toto or his Toto, I guess.

Heath (23:30)

Right. So Larry basically told all these people, yeah, Toto's gonna play. And then it's.

Daphne (23:36)

It's Bobby Kimball.

Heath (23:38)

Kimball and like, a bunch of random dudes. And so people felt really ripped off. And I guess maybe he should have blessed the reins down in Africa for the real band, Toto.

Daphne (23:49)

So this concert was held on August 25, 1990, and it just resulted in further defamation for Larry and the club. You know, it's not. To be fair, it's not like it's a total cover ban. Like, at least it's still the front man, you know, but it's not what people were expecting. It's not the Toto that they know at that point. Because this was almost a decade after Bobby left the band. So they're like, what?

Heath (24:12)

Yeah. And you can't. You can't do that. If you're gonna say it's Toto, it better be Toto. It can't just be Bobby Kimball and then an ensemble of nobody's.

Daphne (24:20)

And I imagine that Toto would have had issue with that as well, you

Heath (24:24)

know, I mean, who knows?

Daphne (24:25)

Because, like, he's not in the band anymore.

Heath (24:27)

Well, the same kind of thing. Sorry, little off rant here, but that's the same thing happened with the band Rat. Steven Piercey kind of did his off offshoot rat thing, and then another, you know, member of the band did Rat over here.

Daphne (24:40)

Same thing with La Guns.

Heath (24:41)

La Guns. Same thing. So it does happen.

Daphne (24:43)

Exactly. Well, in an interview with a local paper after the ordeal, Larry complained, quote, I feel like I was slightly deceived by Kimball and his manager. We had 900 people, and within the first three songs, we had 100 people leave. So, like, people noticed, you know.

Heath (25:03)

Yeah, they were like, fuck this fake Toto.

Daphne (25:06)

So unable to escape the suspicion and a bad publicity stacked against him and his business, Larry sold the venue to the Oregon Theater management corporation in 1991. Because the publicity from the coverage about Tim's disappearance, the ticket scam, and the Toto debacle were more than he could charm his way out of, as he usually did. And this is where the name of the venue changed to the Roseland Theater, which is how it remains today.

Heath (25:37)

And I gotta say, I love the Roseland Theater. It's never been I saw Newfound glory there.

Daphne (25:43)

Love. Great.

Heath (25:44)

Yeah, great.

Daphne (25:44)

Yeah. I was looking at the lineup this year.

Heath (25:47)

It's a great venue. Yeah, it is a really good venue. But anyway, get this, guys. So in 1992, so three years after Tim went missing, Larry became unofficially implicated in yet another disappearance. So according to a former employee of Larry's named Dave Wilson, a night out drinking with coworkers revealed that Larry and one other employee of Starry Night had murdered Tim inside Larry's Starry Night office on the night that he disappeared and then weighed down his body with microphone stands and tossed him into the Willamette River. Which just, like, feels like some sort of lore. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that would be. That would be like a haunted story that would be told at a venue. Like, oh, this venue's got a crazy haunted story.

Daphne (26:35)

No, it would. Which is. Which is why I think this story is so interesting. And I'm surprised it's not more well known because of that, like, lore, like, element to it, because, of course, they would use microphone stands because they're at a music venue. Like, it's just kind of crazy. So the fact that this story is now circulating years later, pretty wild.

Heath (26:56)

While enthused about this, potential lead, detective Steve Bumgart asked Dave if he would be willing to wear a wire in order to, like, gain intel against Larry. But before helping out the police, Dave just like Tim vanished. So police immediately suspected the involvement of Larry Hurwitz as, like, witness suppression. Because they're like, now we've got two people connected to Larry that have gone missing.

Daphne (27:22)

Yeah. And did Larry find out that he was gonna try to help us and then he made him disappear?

Heath (27:29)

Right. Well, as a precaution, the Willamette river was dutifully searched, but there were no bodies or microphone stands recovered.

Daphne (27:38)

But just so everybody knows, the Willamette river is pretty long. It's 187 miles long, and it's very wide. It spills into other waterways. It cuts right through Portland, goes all across Oregon, So it'd be hard to

Heath (27:52)

search the entire thing.

Daphne (27:54)

Yeah. This isn't like a little river. Yeah, it's huge.

Heath (27:57)

Well, the Portland homicide detectives also obtained a warrant in. Confiscated. Confiscated. Sorry, the carpet in Larry's office. But here's the thing. Dave Wilson resurfaced a few months later and was able to offer a simple explanation as to his whereabouts for the last few months, which was that he had gone off the grid for a two month camping trip in the woods.

Daphne (28:23)

So Oregonian of him.

Heath (28:25)

Yeah. But also.

Daphne (28:26)

But also two months also. Did you really do that though?

Heath (28:29)

Yeah. So he allegedly wasn't even missing at all, unlike Tim. But I will say that Dave was then arrested in Springfield, Oregon on a cocaine charge and when detectives spoke with him again, he alleged that he had concocted and falsified the murder story to his coworkers and that he didn't actually mean it.

Daphne (28:50)

Mm. It's a pretty specific story.

Heath (28:53)

Yeah, it is. It very much is. And because they didn't have evidence to prove that it was true, it wouldn't be until six years later that an accomplice and co worker of the murderer would confess his involvement and implicate his and Tim's boss Larry Hurwitz, as the mastermind of the operation behind what happened to Tim.

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Daphne (34:25)

Enjoy the go with charming. You know, I wonder if Dave was hiding from Larry. I mean, obviously he's committing other crimes, but I do. It's interesting timing to take a two month long camp trip.

Heath (34:54)

Well, would it be inconceivable to think that, you know, maybe Larry had clued Dave in on what had happened to Tim? And then, you know, he's like, I just know too much. I gotta distance myself from Larry. Mad Larry.

Daphne (35:08)

Yeah, Mad Larry. Scary place to be. Honestly.

Heath (35:11)

Actually, I think they did call him. They called him Scary Larry. They did? Yeah.

Daphne (35:15)

I mean, fitting. Fitting name.

Heath (35:17)

Yeah.

Daphne (35:17)

So Larry's tax evasion was just one in a long line of sketchy dealings that Larry had been involved in. In an interview about the success of his club, he joked, quote, when I started, people said my money came from the mob on the east coast. In the mid-80s, people said I was getting money from the Bhagwan, referring to a religious commune called Raj Nishpuram that operated out of Portland in the 1980s, by the way.

Heath (35:44)

Yeah. And if you guys know anything about Portland, Oregon, that was a huge. It was kind of like a cult that operated in Oregon at the time, like in the 80s. There's actually a great documentary about that culture. I can't remember what it's called though, but I guess look it up and go check it out.

Daphne (36:00)

Yeah. So he's saying people are saying I got my money from them.

Heath (36:03)

Yeah, he's saying that everybody thought he was not doing, like, solid business, which,

Daphne (36:10)

to be very clearly, wasn't.

Heath (36:12)

No, he wasn't, dude.

Daphne (36:13)

It's sketchy as hell.

Heath (36:14)

Yeah.

Daphne (36:14)

And then he continued to say, quote, now people suspect my money comes from cocaine. None of it's true. I'm so clean, it ain't funny. Okay, sure, Larry. That would prove to be false. The year after he opened his club, Starry Night, a security guard named John Stanley stole $3,000 worth of cocaine and $3,100 in cash from Larry. And in retaliation, Larry leveled a kidnapping plot against him, planning on holding John's parents hostage until he repaid his debts. Like, he's like, I'm gonna just steal your parents. Give me my six grand.

Heath (36:53)

You know what's kind of crazy just to kind of go slightly off topic here is that you never really expect dudes like Larry to exist in the state of Oregon. Like. Like just being a person that's from Oregon, you. You would think that this whole story is taking place in, like, New York or something. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's the movies. Yeah. But it's like, crime is everywhere. Apparently, Oregon in the 1980s was kind of fucked up.

Daphne (37:17)

Well, also, to be fair, he was from the east coast, so, you know. Yeah, maybe he's bringing his east coast ways with him.

Heath (37:24)

Yeah, maybe, I guess.

Daphne (37:25)

I'm kidding, but I know what you mean. I mean, you're even from Oregon, so you could very much look past stereotypes. But, yeah, it's supposed to be, like, a woodland place. You know, an honest.

Heath (37:37)

Well, I was gonna say, like, the most, like, horrific crime you would think of Oregon having is, like, maybe like, hunting without a deer tag or something. Right, Right. Yeah.

Daphne (37:48)

So, according to fellow Starry Night employee Evan Parrish, Larry was so incensed by John's scheme that he began to hatch a murder plot. Evan explained, quote, that's what first came into Larry's head to kill him. And just. Just to recap, I'm talking about John Stanley, who took the three grand of cocaine and then the $3,100 in cash. So this is really only $6,000. But apparently, according to Evan, Larry was just so upset that he immediately went to murder. Yeah, well, first he went to kidnapping old people, and then he went to murder. But either way, he is immediately trying to, you know, get his debts repaid or else. So operating on a tip from somebody that knew these guys, John Stanley's car was apparently spotted in the parking lot of a Denny's in Salem, Oregon, which is a city south of Portland. Larry loaded up the car with Evan, his brother, and another Starry Night employee known as Marco, and the four of them headed to Salem to confront John. Remember, this is a year after he opened the club. This is years before Tim went missing. Just a few years. Now, by Evan Parish's recollection, Larry had a.32 caliber revolver and Marco had a knife. We went to Salem to kill Johnny John Stanley. We were going to take him out in the woods and bag him. Looking back, I can't believe that we really did that. I don't know what I was thinking. But Larry was detained in question for his role in the plot, and charges were supposed to be filed against him for harassment and the impersonation of police officers. However, somehow these charges were kind of lost in the shuffle between the police and the district attorney's office. Like, what? And no Charges were ever brought against Larry for this kidnapping scheme, but this is who he is. Over $6,000, 3,000 of which were of cocaine, the other which was in cash. He wants to go take this man in the woods with a team of his hooligans and murder this man.

Heath (40:12)

Yeah. It's just absolutely unhinged.

Daphne (40:15)

So you can only imagine what he wants to do to Tim years later, when Tim finds out what he's doing, what illegal operation he's running.

Heath (40:24)

Yeah. And the silliest part about all of this is that he later, like, downplayed leveling these threats, saying, quote, I may have said those words could be a figure of speech. So he's like, yeah, I just said the words. We didn't actually do anything. It's like you literally loaded up a car of dudes to go to Salem and kill this guy.

Daphne (40:43)

Yeah. And he's just saying. Well, and it's actually funny because he says, could be a figure of speech. So it's like, it could have. Could have just been like, oh, I want to kill that guy. Like, not really could have been.

Heath (40:53)

But you drove there.

Daphne (40:54)

Yeah. I mean, he's. He's totally lying.

Heath (40:57)

Well, Larry downplayed any abduction or extortion plot that he was hatching, saying that he only meant to use John's parents for parental persuasion.

Daphne (41:06)

Still, like, you're gonna. You're gonna take his parents. I was. Well, I was just trying to persuade him.

Heath (41:10)

Yeah.

Daphne (41:10)

What?

Heath (41:11)

It's like, I was. I was gonna. I was gonna kidnap them, but I was just gonna persuade them.

Daphne (41:16)

I was just gonna have.

Heath (41:17)

With my knuckles.

Daphne (41:18)

Yeah. A stern talking with them.

Heath (41:21)

So, to his friends and colleagues, he was known as, like I said, scary Larry for these intimidation tactics. And he was also found to have intimidated a grand jury witness and hatched a plan to launder money through the purchase of rare metals. The Oregon liquor control commission discovered that he was also selling alcohol without a license at his venue. But he managed to retroactively secure a license and was never held accountable for his illegal operations. He later filed for bankruptcy, though he declined to declare millions of dollars worth of assets.

Daphne (41:55)

Of course he did.

Heath (41:57)

He was also accused of terrorism when a local Save More grocery store was bombed. So, basically, that story goes, the fire broke out on July 22nd of 1989, which, of course, was only a few months after Tim went missing at the savemore grub grocery store in old town Portland. And apparently, it spread to a tattoo parlor, a resale shop, and another grocery store, causing about $125,000 of damage. Arson investigators were called in to assess the situation, along with agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And investigators noted that the fire was suspicious and reeked of either arson or a homemade explosive. Now, that section of Old Town was like a magnet for unhoused people, addicts and loiterers. I think it probably still is today. And a few local business owners felt that it was kind of hurting their profits. So it has long been suspected that Larry and a restaurateur in the area were responsible for this crime, though officially it remains unsolved. I mean, neighbors even had T shirts printed that said, who bombed Savemore? It was like this local conspiracy.

Daphne (43:17)

Add that to our small list of crime shirts that we talk about on this show.

Heath (43:21)

Yeah, they seem to keep piling up.

Daphne (43:23)

Yeah. So while the Portland Police Department continued their attempt to figure out what happened to Tim, Larry relocated to Vietnam to work as a promoter for local rock concerts. Because, of course, he's getting out of America.

Heath (43:38)

I was gonna say this is exactly what he would do. Yeah. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some counterfeit shit going on in Vietnam.

Daphne (43:46)

Well, I will say, at the time of his arrest in extradition, he was working on promoting concerts for Sting, which was a major highlight in his career. Just before Christmas 1997, Larry was extradited back to Portland and arrested on four counts of tax evasion for the hundreds of thousands of dollars of income that had remained undeclared. He made his first court appearance on December 23, 1997, and seated behind him were Tim's parents, desperate for information about their missing son. Because even though this court hearing is about the tax evasion, they're like, we know you're involved, so we're gonna try to see what kind of shit you're up to and get some answers about our situation.

Heath (44:38)

Yeah, absolutely. Can't blame him.

Daphne (44:40)

So according to Penny and Mike, Larry had muttered something under his breath when he saw them, but nobody could actually hear what it was. Then Larry pleaded guilty to the tax evasion charges because he knew he had no other option and was sentenced to a year in prison. So this gave homicide detectives a year to build their case against him, you know, about Tim. Before he slipped from their grasp again for a second time and went off to God knows where. Well, then, months later, In August of 1998, a woman named Kathryn Hand came forward and pointed to the involvement of her ex boyfriend, George Castagnola, who was working for Starry Night at the time of Tim's murder. So Catherine is Basically saying, my ex, I believe, was involved in whatever happened to Tim. So police worked with Katherine to approach him while wearing a wire and have a covertly recorded conversation wherein he confessed.

Heath (45:47)

Yeah, George just laid it all out.

Daphne (45:49)

So George then accepted a plea deal for offering up the story and his testimony against, you guessed it, Scary Larry. Scary Larry. So by George's recollection, this is the story. This is the horrific story. Larry asked George to wait in the room next door to his office when he brought Tim in to speak with him in case things went south. During their confrontation, Larry descended on Tim. As George held him down, Larry strangled 21 year old Tim Morrow with a garrote that he made from a broom handle attached to microphone wires.

Heath (46:33)

So honestly, when we were talking about the mic stands earlier, we weren't that far off.

Daphne (46:37)

No, truly. But the garrote broke. And although Tim was unconscious by this point, the two wrapped him up with duct tape to ensure that he would suffocate, also ensuring that his death was tormenting if he did regain consciousness during that time. Once innocent Tim was deceased, Larry and George then drove his body to a densely forested area of Washington State. Because for those who don't know, Portland, Oregon sits right on the border of Oregon and Washington. They took him on the other side of the Columbia River Gorge and discarded him in a grave that Larry had prepared two days prior to his murder.

Heath (47:19)

Which is insane. And just goes to show us that this whole thing was so premeditated.

Daphne (47:24)

Yeah. And then he covered him in garbage bags and buried him in that grave that he had, like, pre dug.

Heath (47:32)

It's just so fucked up because all of this happened because Tim was inquiring about, like, counterfeit concert tickets.

Daphne (47:40)

I know, like the fact that it upset him that much that he told family and Jason that he was gonna confront him because it was upsetting him. He was a good guy and he was so passionate about this job and he wanted his boss to do the right thing.

Heath (47:54)

Yeah, because there's probably like millions of people out there that would have just been like, oh, my boss is a little bit shady. I don't, I don't care. Yeah, but Tim was like, no, like, you're ripping people off at these concerts and I can't let you do that.

Daphne (48:09)

And of course, we know that Tim had mentioned this to him before, which is why this meeting was even happening. But in Larry's mind, this meeting is the murder plot. He's like, oh, my God, Tim's gonna ruin my life.

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And.

Daphne (48:22)

And probably tell police about all the horrible Things and shady things that I'm doing. So he's gotta go.

Heath (48:28)

And it's also crazy, the fact that this guy is just like a lifelong criminal.

Daphne (48:35)

He's ruthless and. Yeah, he's repeat offender. Yeah.

Heath (48:39)

He just continues to keep doing these shady things over and over and over again.

Daphne (48:44)

Well, it's also crazy because he really, like, he. Larry knew that the suspicion was going to fall on him, at least a little bit, because Tim was last seen at work. So this is what Larry did to kind of, like, beat the suspicion against Tim. He flew to California after doing this to Tim, after killing Tim. Tim flew to California to meet with some sketchy PI to be taught how to beat a polygraph examination, which is crazy.

Heath (49:14)

I mean, you like, if I was a private investigator, obviously this was a very sleazy, sketchy private investigator. Because if you were a PI and somebody came to you and said, I want to know how to beat a

Daphne (49:26)

polygraph, you'd be like, the opposite of your work.

Heath (49:29)

Yeah. You'd be like, why do you want to know that? Like, that's a weird thing to come to me for.

Daphne (49:34)

Right. But he's like, give me the cash. I'll tell you what you need to know. But also just wild that Larry went to that extent. So it seemed like it would have worked if it wasn't for the Amazing Catherine for implicating George, because then if it weren't for George, they wouldn't have had enough to get Larry on.

Heath (49:52)

Well, George Castagnola was given just 10 years in prison for his valuable testimony against Larry, as well as promising to lead police to the location of Tim's body, although, sadly, he was unable to do this despite his best efforts, still hoping to locate their son's remains. Tim's parents actually urged the prosecution not to pursue the death penalty against Larry when they prosecuted the murder, and even asked to offer up an exchange of zero jail time for revealing the location of Tim. Tim's body.

Daphne (50:25)

Like, this is how badly they want to know where their son is.

Heath (50:28)

Yeah, they just want to know. I mean, they already know Larry is a piece of shit. They know he did it, but they're like, where is Tim? But when the Multnomah county prosecutor, Norm Frink came forward with a plea deal, Larry shot back, quote, I have nothing to say now, like George, Larry accepted the deal, though privately he maintained that he had nothing to do with his former employee's death.

Daphne (50:52)

Yeah, so he's saying, I'll legally take responsibility, but I'm not going to tell you that. I actually did it, and I'm not going to give you the details.

Heath (51:00)

Well, this time, Tim's family were the ones to bring forward a lawsuit, and they filed a wrongful death suit against Larry Hurwitz. Though they were never fully paid out, he continued to deny involvement and responsibility, but was forced to start paying the $3 million settlement to Tim's parents under the stipulation that a civil court court would have convicted him for the murder. That lawsuit sought to ensure that he will have consequences for the rest of his life. After his confession In November of 1998, like I just mentioned, George was sentenced to 10 years, of which he only served eight. And upon his release in 2006, he relocated to Honolulu, Hawaii, for a fresh start, moving in with his dad. I mean, it's kind of crazy that you were involved in a murder and you only got eight years in prison.

Daphne (51:52)

I totally agree with you. It just sucks because I think if they had Tim's body, everything would be different.

Heath (52:00)

I think so, too. Well, when he was convicted, he said casually, quote, I'm happy to get it over with. I'm happy to get into the prison system and have this behind my back. Meanwhile, Larry pleaded no contest to the murder and made what police begrudgingly admitted was a, quote, good faith effort to locate Tim's body. And though these attempts failed, he was given just a 12 year sentence, of which he only served nine.

Daphne (52:29)

I mean, that's extra bullshit because of the fact that, like you were saying, like, he's such a repeat offender, like, this is just like a pure piece of shit. He. He's just gonna commit more crimes like we know he will.

Heath (52:42)

It's like he just keeps getting chances. They keep, like, slapping him on the wrist, like, the guy's just gonna keep doing shit.

Daphne (52:49)

And he did, like, pretty much immediately upon his release from prison after those nine years. Because, get this, in 2019, Larry was arrested in California for trafficking cocaine and was brought back to Oregon for violating the terms of his parole. At the time of his arrest, he was actually pulled over for talking on a cell phone while driving. But when the officer noted that Larry seemed nervous and agitated and that he reeked of marijuana, the officer quickly scanned the vehicle and noticed a grocery bag full of cash and another containing a large amount of cocaine. At the time of the arrest, he had 4.4kilos of cocaine with him, as well as $220,000 in cash. Upon hearing the news of his arrest, the Morrows announced, we continue to hold Larry Hurwitz accountable for the murder of our son Tim. His prior conviction for the murder of our son Tim and his numerous parole violations in Oregon had the effect of increasing his prison sentence for his most recent convictions. When he completes his sentence in California, we expect him to be returned to Oregon to face the Oregon parole board for his numerous parole violations in Oregon. In 2020, Larry was sentenced to eight years in prison, but again found himself somehow released early. Then, Most recently, in 2026, he was arrested on a domestic violence charge against his wife. But the full picture is even darker and weirder. So the victim, the woman's family, Alleges that she had been coerced into the marriage against her will by Larry. And her granddaughter even filed for a conservatorship in an attempt to get the woman away from Larry. She and Larry had apparently met in Seattle back in 2012, but his victim, who, at nine years older than Tim is now 80, has declined in overall health as well as mental clarity since that time. A victim's rights attorney is seeking to help her annul the marriage on the grounds that she was apparently forced by Larry in an effort to gain control of her financial assets.

Heath (55:18)

Crazy. That reminds me of the movie that we just watched. Heartbreakers.

Daphne (55:22)

Such a good one.

Heath (55:23)

Larry is literally pulling that scheme where he's like, I'm gonna marry an older lady so that I can maybe see if I can get my hands on some of that money.

Daphne (55:32)

But even the fact that her granddaughter knows this, Trying to get the conservatorship, you know, they're all like, he is scamming her. Like, that's so Larry. Well, his arrest came after the victim fled into a grocery store in Sandy, Oregon, on January 16th of 2026 and called police to report having been attacked by her husband, Larry, after he shoved her to the floor. To this, Larry pleaded guilty to harassment and accepted a plea deal. Tim's parents, of course, being the kind people that they are, Extended their well wishes to Larry's newest victim in the press. But Larry hurwitz never fully paid his debt to Tim's parents. Unfortunately, this judgment expired in 2021, so he is now off the hook for any more repayment. I don't know how he keeps getting off.

Heath (56:30)

It's crazy. I don't know how many more times we can say plea deal in this freaking episode, because it just seems like he's just getting plea deals left and right. Look under your chair. There's a plea deal. And despite the renewed interest in the case because of his killer's recent resurgence in the news, Tim's body remains undiscovered to this day. His parents, though, say that they found peace knowing that he was laid to rest in the mountains that he cherished. Penny Moreau explained. We've been out to the area where they say Tim is. It's beautiful. Tim came to Portland because he loved the woods. I could accept it if he were to remain there.

Daphne (57:17)

Thank you so much, everybody, for listening to this episode of Going West.

Heath (57:21)

Yes. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. It's just so heartbreaking thinking about Tim's parents and his brother and rest of his family and friends. Just knowing that this career criminal took advantage of such a kind young man just trying to do good in the world.

Daphne (57:41)

Yeah, it's. It's so devastating as well that they essentially know what happened to him, but they don't. And imagine being them and knowing that Larry is a free man for so many years and that he's just callously denying killing their son, even though they've known this entire freaking time that he did it. And having to learn the horrific way in which he died. Like that last quote you read of Pennies is so heartbreaking that she has this beautiful outlook after just this monstrous experience.

Heath (58:16)

Yeah. Knowing that her son is. His final resting place is in those mountains.

Daphne (58:21)

You know, it's such a devastating story. Our hearts really go out to this family for all the years of torment they have endured.

Heath (58:29)

Yes. And we appreciate you guys listening today. If you want to see photos of Tim, head on over to our socials. We're on Instagram at Going west podcast as well as Facebook and TikTok.

Daphne (58:41)

Yeah, check that out for photos of Tim. And then we also have videos that we do on socials for you guys to see. So we will see you guys on Tuesday for a whole new episode.

Heath (58:51)

All right, guys, so for everybody out

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