Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 1)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club – Chapterhouse Dune (Part 1)

Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast by Lore Party Media
Hosts: Abu & Leo
Date: November 28, 2025
Episode Theme:
A passionate and in-depth kickoff to Frank Herbert’s Chapterhouse: Dune, the sixth and final Dune novel published before Herbert’s death. The hosts guide listeners through the first three chapters, unpacking plot developments, character shifts, and the big-picture themes that are shaping the saga’s conclusion, particularly the rising existential conflict with the Honored Matres and the cost of war for the Bene Gesserit.

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Episode Overview

The episode launches the podcast’s book club for Chapterhouse Dune with a discussion of the opening three chapters, setting the stage for major conflicts and philosophical questions. Abu and Leo explore the return of key characters, the tension between traditions and adaptability, and the role of xenophobia as an existential theme–all while maintaining the witty, irreverent energy that has become a hallmark of the series.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Club Structure and Recap of Opening Chapters

• [05:35] Abu and Leo begin with detailed summaries:

  • Chapter 1: Odrade, Belanda, and Tamalane celebrate the birth of the Miles Teg ghola—successfully grown in the Bene Gesserit's own (not Tleilaxu) axolotl tank, marking a significant strategic and symbolic moment. Belanda is dismissive of “celebration” in wartime, highlighting heightened tension as the Honored Matres have destroyed 16 planets and are hunting the Bene Gesserit’s hidden base, Chapter House.
  • Odrade is shown as both a strong leader and deeply human—haunted by forced, high-stakes decisions such as abandoning the planet Palma to enemy devastation, which weighs on her moral conscience.
    • “She responds to that email with just like, the Auto AI response… should we abandon all of those lives? And she’s like, yeah, sounds good!” – Leo ([10:35])
  • The chapter closes with Odrade reflecting on both the Honored Matres’ reckless ferocity ("burning the candle at both ends") and the Bene Gesserit’s own dangerous rigidity, foreshadowing the need for change on both sides.
    • “The problem is that systems have patterns. And once you crack those patterns, you can exploit the systems.” – Abu ([13:15])

• Chapter 2:

  • Listeners meet the “Great Honored Matre”—the leader of the antagonistic order—as she interrogates and ultimately kills Sabanda, a Bene Gesserit captive, on the planet Junction (formerly the homeworld of the Spacing Guild). The Honored Matres’ conquest is highlighted as unprecedented in scale and brutality.
  • Shiana’s ambiguous status is discussed; the Honored Matres are uncertain whether she is dead or alive, referencing potential religious or cult status.
    • “Did you teach your young ones to worship the witch Shiana?” – Great Honored Matre, dramatic reading by Leo ([17:43])
    • “There is a cult of Shiana. What does that mean?” – Leo ([18:36])
  • The segment closes with Sabanda’s death by “experimental drug” and her body being fed to mysterious creatures called Futars (glimpsed in Heretics of Dune).
    • “Sabanda, the queen, the absolute icon, ends right as we meet her.” – Leo ([19:56])

• Chapter 3:

  • Odrade educates young Miles Teg (the ghola, age 9) with a walk through the Chapter House orchards—a lush metaphor for stewardship, ecology, and impermanence.
  • Themes of teaching, “naming and classifying” as a human trait, and the dangers of attachment and illusion of ownership are foregrounded in their conversation.
    • “That’s really what you Bene Gesserit do. You’re farmers.” – Miles Teg ([24:57])
  • There is discussion around planned transformation of Chapter House: the desert’s expansion (and the eventual loss of these orchards) echo the series’ ongoing ecological and philosophical cycles.
  • The tension between closed, self-sustaining systems and the risk of stagnation is highlighted:
    • “You run the risk of letting the rot at the core infect the rest of the system.” – Abu ([24:56])

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2. Major Themes & Takeaways

A. Xenophobia as Defining & Destructive

• Takeaway Segment ([28:12] – [47:11]):
  • Both hosts focus on the escalating theme of xenophobia as embodied by the Honored Matres, who are characterized by paranoia, violence, and an absolute fear of outsiders. Their brutality is seen as self-defeating and rooted in deep insecurity.
  • Odrade recognizes both Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres are vulnerable to stagnation and closing themselves off, but the Matres have “xenophobia carried to a ridiculous extreme”:
    • “All outsiders were the enemy... The only people they appeared to trust were the men they sexually enslaved, and those only to a limited degree.” – Abu, quoting Odrade ([33:32])
  • Leo speculates empathetically on the possible survivalist origins of the Honored Matres’ worldview post-scattering, but emphasizes how their extreme insularity breeds more enemies and doom:
    • “This creates new enemies. It’s a self-defeating—never going to lead to peace.” ([35:33])
  • The idea that labeling and dehumanizing “the other” ironically produces greater existential threats is made pointedly relevant to current events:
    • “This theme from a book published in 1985 could not be more relevant today.” – Abu ([30:36])
  • A notable quote that crystallizes the flexible, self-critical stance Odrade takes on both the Bene Gesserit and xenophobia as a universal danger:
    • “How tempting it is to raise high walls and keep out change, rot here in our self-satisfied comfort. Enclosures of any kind are a fertile breeding ground. Hatred of outsiders that produces a bitter harvest.” – Odrade, quoted by Abu ([45:43])
  • The hosts link this thematic discussion back to the practical moral costs and risks facing all societies—Bene Gesserit and real-world alike.

B. Other Notable Themes

• Gardening and Stewardship as Metaphors:
  The recurring imagery of gardeners, orchards, and shifting climate is used throughout the chapters as a motif for change, care, and the inevitability of loss—a metaphor the hosts expect to continue developing as the book progresses.
• The Human Cost of Leadership: Both Odrade’s and other leaders’ exhaustion and personal toll are discussed, humanizing typically “calculating” Bene Gesserit characters; decisions are shown to be both strategic and deeply emotional.

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3. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Tallest baby you’ve ever goddamn seen.” – Leo on Miles Teg’s new ghola body ([06:07])
• “Homegrown Golas for the Bene Gesserit… no gluten. It’s vegan.” – Leo, riffing on the Sisterhood’s “organic” Gola breakthrough ([06:58])
• “Be still my beating heart. No, no, don’t be still. Keep beating. We’re doing it.” – Leo’s excitement at starting the novel ([01:52])
• “Life breeds more intensely when threatened.” – Odrade, as quoted by Abu; one example of subtle themes on adversity ([23:22])
• “You’re farmers. That’s really what you Bene Gesserit do.” – Miles Teg, summarizing the metaphor of stewardship ([24:57])
• “You have these...the muscles and a physical embodiment of capability that are twitching nervously even as she sits on the most powerful throne… the most paranoid leaders are the ones with their throne facing the back wall.” – Leo, on the Great Honored Matre ([36:41])
• “Everything on a long enough timeline, as Paul was apt to explain… 3500 years is a blip.” – Abu & Leo, reflecting on impermanence ([43:23])
• “If Frank Herbert’s eyes at the end were blue-within-blue, I wouldn’t be surprised.” – Leo, marveling at Herbert’s prescience regarding social commentary ([38:46])
• “Consider the hate and fear-based labels that are often put on outsiders in the real world… serve to give ownership and to dehumanize them.” – Abu, connecting Dune themes to the present ([44:04])
• “How tempting it is to raise high walls and keep out change, rot here in our self-satisfied comfort.” – Odrade (Herbert), recurring as episode’s philosophical core ([45:43])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [05:35] – Start of Assigned Chapter Summaries
• [13:37] – Analysis of rigidity vs. malleability in Bene Gesserit systems
• [14:46 & 24:57] – Gardening and ecological metaphors
• [16:41] – Introduction of Junction, Honored Matre base
• [19:56] – Sabanda’s death and foreshadowing of Futars
• [23:21] – Thematic quote about adversity (“life breeds more intensely when threatened”)
• [28:12] – Takeaway segment begins: Xenophobia as an existential theme
• [33:32] – Quoting Odrade on Honored Matre xenophobia
• [36:41] – Describing the Great Honored Matre’s paranoia
• [45:43] – Odrade’s closing meditation on walls, change, and “bitter harvest”
• [48:18] – Spice Morsels (Bonus Lore and Fun Facts)

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Spice Morsels (Bonus Lore & Deep Dives)

1. Santayana’s Famous Quote ([48:18])

• The often-misattributed phrase, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” is spotlighted as it appears in the chapters. Leo provides historical context: Spanish philosopher George Santayana coined it in The Life of Reason (1905). The full quote is even sharper and resonates with Dune’s generational memory themes.

2. The (Psychedelic?) Mushroom Connection ([53:30])

• Odrade’s lessons to Miles Teg reference the symbiosis of mushrooms and roots.
• Leo and Abu discuss author Paul Stamets’ claim that Frank Herbert not only loved cultivating edible mushrooms, but was inspired by psychedelic mushrooms when conceiving spice, sandworms, and the Fremen. While the hosts take this anecdote with a grain of (flavorful) salt, they note how mushroom cycles influenced the ecology and “trip” metaphors in Dune.

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Closing Thoughts & Next Steps

• Both hosts are energized by “how dense this book is already” ([28:39]) and eager to explore its metaphors, politics, and “bitter harvests.”
• Homework for next episode: Read chapters 4 through 6 (up to “…and I accept it, as he knew I would”).
• They encourage listener engagement via email and remind fans to check Patreon and merch to support the deep-diving, research-heavy book club episodes.
• “Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.” – Closing mantra ([62:14])

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In Summary

This episode launches Gom Jabbar’s Chapterhouse Dune Book Club with verve, humor, and attentive analysis. The hosts set up major questions for this final Herbert novel—How will the Bene Gesserit adapt? Can the Honored Matres’ xenophobia be their undoing?—while unpacking themes of ecology, survival, memory, and leadership. Rich quotes, humor, and thoughtful asides make this an essential listen for newcomers and Dune obsessives alike.

Key philosophical takeaway: Both walls and patterns, meant to protect, can become prisons—and all power is ultimately precarious.

Transcript

[Leo]

Tamerlane spoke few words these days, her comments so sparse as to be almost ludicrous. Buy more merch from. Com Jamar. Oh, ahem.

[Abu]

Brief the patrons on our upcoming plans.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

Review our email backlog. Ask your friends to subscribe to.

[Leo]

Come Jabbar, man. Tamboyan's showing up to support Com Jabbar. Huh? I don't know. We gotta get her a Lawson show. That's crazy.

[Abu]

That was my shot at like a on. On death's door template. Like one more cop is my door.

[Leo]

Do we have any rapid COVID test for Tamerlane? That's got a lot going on in the head there. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe from. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh, and today on the show, I realized halfway through the intro that we're starting Chapter House. And it got me so excited, right?

[Abu]

I felt it, you know, I felt that subtle energy in the air halfway through the intro where you went, my God. Chapter House Dune, the sixth book by Frank Herbert in the Dune saga. Are we starting it today?

[Leo]

Be still my beating heart. No, no, don't be still. Keep beating. We're doing it. Oh, I'm so excited. Very, very, very exciting. And this is part of our book club series, so let's take care of our housekeeping. We'll get this out of the way and then we're going to get into this book, the final book that Frank Herbert published in the Dune series before he passed away. Very exciting. Bittersweet.

[Abu]

Bittersweet.

[Leo]

So let's make Shout Out Mapes proud and spoiler warning, same spoiler warning as always for our book clubs. The there are going to be no spoilers past the assigned reading in this book and then of course, all previous Dune books. So make sure today you have read all of Frank's books and the first three chapters of Chapter House Dune.

[Abu]

That's right. And up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Gian, who I see in the chat, and Seth Redding Greer, who might be in the chat with a different username. Thank you so much for your generosity, truly. We say this every book club, but we do mean it every book club. These book club episodes are some of the toughest episodes we work on. They require the most research, the most reading, the most rereading the most in depth analysis. And so we could not dedicate the time we do to episodes like this without your support. Of course. That thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level who build that foundation upon which our bills get paid and this show gets made.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

I made it rhyme.

[Leo]

What a rhyme. That was so good.

[Abu]

So thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts.

[Leo]

Thank you so much. It means the world. And of course, if you can't right now, become a monthly supporter on Patreon, there are other ways to support the show, including a one time tip where you can show your appreciation. That link is in the show notes. Check it out. Every little bit helps as we keep this cobbled together thing going.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

All right. Now this is a book club episode, so you all should know the game plan. We are going to begin with a summary of the assigned chapters. Then we're going to dive a little bit deeper into a takeaway from the assigned chapters. And then we're going to finally wrap up with some yummy spice morsels today. Slightly mushroom flavored, a little bit of that kind of earthiness and. Oh, it's starting to kick in. Oh, no. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's going to be interesting.

[Abu]

Are the walls melting for you too?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

My walls are like dripping. They're like sweating a little bit.

[Leo]

Mine are. Is, Is beef swelling appropriate? No, no, that's. That's. I can smell the slig on the. On the burner. Yeah. But before we get into all of that, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, it would be absurd for you to jump ship now. Stick around. We'll be right back. Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just $8 only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery.

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's dive into this book, Leo, starting as we always do, as we often do, dare I say at the beginning, let's dive into chapter one and our chapter summaries for the three chapters we assigned for today's reading. In the first chapter of this book, Leo, we join Odrade, Balanda, and Tambalane at a private breakfast where they are celebrating the birth of Gola Miles Day.

[Leo]

He's so good. We brought him back.

[Abu]

We brought him back, baby.

[Leo]

Tallest baby you've ever goddamn seen.

[Abu]

Truly. I need to know how tall he was when he came out of that axolotl tank. Now, speaking of axolotl tanks. Balanda is annoyed. Right? She's like, what are we doing here? We're in the middle of a war. Do we have time for an indulgent breakfast? What are we doing?

[Leo]

Classic Balanda.

[Abu]

She thinks this is a total waste of time. Yeah, classic Balanda. But o' Draid does feel that there is cause for celebration, because, look, not only does this mean that the greatest Bashar in history is now back. Miles Tag is back.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But also, we have successfully birthed a ghola in the first ever Bene Gesserit axolotl tank. They did not go through the Tleilaxu for this one. Dang, that's big.

[Leo]

Homegrown Golas for the Bene Gesserit. This is the first time. Organic. Organic. They've got the. No gluten. It's vegan. They're. They're doing it right. You know, not that shit. Pedaling hike. What is it? Processed corn syrup. All in the Golas from the toy laxu.

[Abu]

Yeah, no, none of that. This is. This is true. Miles Tag. Born from a Bene Gesserit axolotl tag. Now, breakfast is pretty quick and the main topic of discussion because of, again, Belanda. She is focused on the honored madres who are an existential threat to the Bene Gesserit. They have been rampaging across the old empire, and we're told that they have, oh, you know, wiped out 16 whole planets so far and their entire populations, and that they're, you know, continuing to look for the Bene Gesserit home planet of Chapter House, which, for now, has been kept a secret. Things are tense, and Balanda wants everyone to be focused on work. We don't have time for downtime.

[Leo]

Yeah. And as a reminder, like, the scale of Dune is so big. These aren't, like, planets with, like. Oh, it's, like, scattered. These are very likely civilization centers with billions, if not trillions of people that are just gone. And it's like, yeah, this is the level that we're talking about. It's insane.

[Abu]

Now, after breakfast, Blonda and Tamline leave. They finish up breakfast. The rest of this first chapter is spent alone with Odrade and her thoughts. And we learn a couple of key details that I think are worth calling out. Firstly, we learn that Odrade doesn't know the true extent of Miles Tagg's abilities from the end of Heretics. Yeah, she's heard rumors, right? She's heard talk of fantastic speed and incredible strength, but this is not something that she's been able to verify herself. And she is curious what this means for the Miles Tag ghola and what this means for the Atreides genes. Is this another genetic mutation? Are these just rumors? Is this just strategy for Miles Tag against the Honored Matres? She doesn't know. Which I found interesting.

[Leo]

Also consider who would be alive to even give those rumors. Right? These are going to be people from Gamu who might have seen him, you know, blur through the streets. But these are not necessarily internal Bene Gesserit assets. So, yeah, she's like, is this just Miles Teg mythmaking? Because he's always kind of a legend when he's on the battlefield.

[Abu]

And.

[Leo]

And, like, that's such an interesting question because at a certain point you're like, no, but I actually do need to know if this child's going to be like a speed, like.

[Abu]

Yeah, right.

[Leo]

Going to very much change what playtime looks like if he can move at Mach 6.

[Abu]

Yeah, right. Suddenly we're in the Incredibles. You know, we need to figure out how to raise this super baby.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Now, the second detail I want to call out here from Madrid's thoughts is basically the fact that the war against the Honored Madres is not going well.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And Odrade has had to make some especially harrowing wartime decisions. She thinks on one example in particular about Palma. She has decided to abandon the Bene Gesserit, keep on Palma, which is effectively also abandoning the entire population of the planet.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And allowing the Honored Madres to do what they will with it, destroy it, take it over, whatever. And these are decisions that are slowly wearing away at O Trade. These are tough things to just simply write off. Like you said, billions, maybe trillions of lives.

[Leo]

Yeah. With just a single word. Right? She says, yes with just a single word, and that's it. Signing the death sentence.

[Abu]

She responds to that email with just like, the Auto AI response. You know, she didn't even write up the single word herself.

[Leo]

And the auto response is like, super cheerful. It's like, should we abandon all of those lives? And she's like, yeah, sounds good.

[Abu]

Exclamation mark, exclamation mark, smile.

[Leo]

Wow. All right.

[Abu]

But, you know, in all seriousness, I did found this really interesting as well because I think it really humanizes o', draid, someone who has now risen to the heights of power. She still is making difficult decisions that are wearing away at her and decisions that she still finds difficult, which I think is important. She's not so disconnected from humanity in her role as Mother Superior that she can just see people as statistics.

[Leo]

Yeah, we. I think we often give the Benny Jesuit a lot of kind of grief for being so calculating, manipulating. But like she's talking about in this first chapter, Blonda, who apparently loves violence and just loves when shit's hitting the fan, is also exhausted by all of this. Tamerlane, who's like, you know, just poker face, doesn't let anything slip, is also showing tiny signs of exhaustion and fatigue. Like, this is taking a very human toll on all of these. These characters, how removed they can sometimes seem.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

That's a great point. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. Well, chapter one ends as Odrade considers the weaknesses of the Andermatres and the Bene Gesserit. I thought this was also a key detail worth calling out. And we're going to touch a little bit more on this in our takeaway today when we dive deeper. So Odrade thinks here at the end about how reckless and bloodthirsty the Honored Madres are, Right? They are so focused on this conquest that they're unaware that their own actions will consume them. It's just a burn the candle from both ends approach to attacking the Old Empire. And their hysterical xenophobia, which we're going to talk about in our takeaway against all outsiders, is actually a weakness that Odrade intends to exploit. And I'm very interested where she goes with this as she strategizes here against the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

On the other hand, though, O'Drade also thinks about the Bene Gesserit. And she thinks how buttoned up the Bene Gesserit are almost too much, right? Almost too tied to their processes and their dogma and always operating according to a system, according to their systems that they've built over millennia. The problem, of course, is that systems have patterns. And once you crack those patterns, you can exploit the systems.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And so she recognizes that there isn't enough malleability and flexibility within the Sisterhood to be able to fight against an enemy like the Honored Matres. And so things there will have to change as well, so I found it interesting that she's sort of examining externally and internally the enemy, but also our own weaknesses here at the end of the first chapter.

[Leo]

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if, like, pattern as a substitute for stagnation ends up being more of a theme in this book. Like, what are the patterns? Do they have their own gravitational pull? And do you maintain them kind of dogmatically just because, you know, is that a set, A symptom of conservatism that they need to get rid of in order to survive?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I also. I really appreciated that the end of this chapter sets up the whole gardening thing that Teg mentions in chapter three. Because the end of the chapter is, oh, Jade deeply exhausted, but still being like, well, I have to get to work. And she has that quote, quote, someone has to do the plowing. End quote. That idea of, like, yeah, back to the soil. I mean, these. These plants are going to be able to take care of themselves. Everything that grows must be tended. And I'm also going to be. Now that I've seen chapter one, chapter three, both have these kind of, like, gardening metaphors and how much the orchards mean to her and everything. It's going to be interesting to kind of, like, let those metaphors play out and kind of understand those. We had keylogs in Heretics.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

We had this idea of, like, the jammed river. Tension building, maybe growth, maybe gardening. I might be jumping the gun a little bit. This is the first chapter, but I feel like we've got two data points, so.

[Abu]

No, no, you're absolutely right. I feel like there's, like, a strong gardening change seasons sort of metaphor all throughout this book, for sure. And we're setting it up here in the first chapter, and we certainly really set it up in chapter three.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

With Miles.

[Leo]

Absolutely. Ecology, man. It's almost like Frank liked it or something. Weird. Okay, well, let's talk about our second chapter. Second chapter is a pretty short one, but we meet, dear Listener for the first time ever, the great Honored Matre herself. Did you know there was a top of the pile? Neither did I. There is. And she's a little old lady, but she's very dangerous, it seems. And she is interrogating a Bene Gesserit prisoner named Sabanda. Now we learn that this interrogation is taking place on Junction, which is incredible. I mean, this. This is insane. Because this reveals how effective the Honored Matres, like rampage and infiltration of the Old Empire has been. They have captured and have now inhabited the homeworld of the Spacing Guild.

[Abu]

Huge.

[Leo]

One of the most powerful like entities in the Dune universe. And they have king of the hilled them out of their own house. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And this is where they're set up. We also have never. I don't think we've ever canonically seen Junction, so this is also very cool. This place has presumably been around for, you know, thousands and thousands of years, and now we're seeing it, which is very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, during the questioning. Right. Sabanda is. Is bound classically in Shaw, just like, I think recently we had Duncan and Jessica bound in Shigaway when they were brought before Wincissia. Right. You move too much, it cuts your skin. She's bound by Shigawire. And the great honor matre is asking her, basically trying to interrogate and kind of get more information out of her before they kill her. And she asks, what did you do? She goes, oh, I taught young students. And she goes, well, we killed all of your young students. Ha ha ha, ha ha. And. And okay. Anakin fucking the younglings. Not the younglings. The younglings. Anakin Sabanda, just to piss her off, smiles in return, you know, unbothered. Unbothered. Queen Sabanda and the great honored matre says, quote, did you teach your. Sorry, I should do an old lady voice. Did you teach your young ones to worship the witch Shiana? End quote.

[Abu]

Oh, that was so good.

[Leo]

Thanks. Oh, my gosh. I. You know, thanks.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

So this tooth.

[Abu]

You're gonna have to get a wisdom tooth taken out every. Every recording now so you can nail that voice.

[Leo]

Makes my old lady voices better. Which, of course, raises some interesting questions about Shiana's current role in the universe. I mean, we know that we are some point further than the end of heretics, but how long has it been and who knows what? Right? Like, it is clear that Chapter House and that, you know, one of the things Tom Elaine mentions, one of her brief things is brief Shiana. So I think we have an idea that Shiana is alive and on chapter House. But, like, no one else knows that. Yeah, no one knows if Shiana is alive or not. And there is a cult of Shiana. There's like a whole following of priestess.

[Abu]

What does that mean?

[Leo]

What does the witch. The witch? She like, okay, she's a witch because she's a Bene. Like, but now she's a Bene Gesserit for sure. It's. There's a lot of questions, which is a good place to start a book with a lot of questions. Which is great. Yeah.

[Abu]

Hell, yeah.

[Leo]

The honored Matre seem to think that she's dead. They're kind of trying to suss out, is she dead? Not sure. We'll see. But Sibanda speaks of her as a living fellow sister. But of course, she's also kind of fucking with the great honor Matre. Because the honor of matre is like, so you mean she's alive? Ha, ha. And she's like, oh, Quote, is it only the living we know? End quote. Garrett, the Great Otter. Oh, fuck. She got me again. Damn it. You know, orange flecks in her eyes. Well, Sabanda, the queen, the absolute icon, ends right as. Right as we. Right as we meet her, she's injected with an experimental drug that might loosen her lips. But, of course, all it does is kill her and her lifeless body is dragged to be fed to the Futars, the, like, strange creatures that we glimpsed on Gamu in heretics but are now. Clearly, they're like the, I don't know, attack dogs or something. We'll see. We'll learn more about Futars as the book comes.

[Abu]

Yeah, stay tuned. Futars will be coming back, folks, in a big way.

[Leo]

Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Love, Futars.

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about our final chapter for today. Chapter 3. In this chapter, we join O' Draid and a young Miles tag as they're walking through the lovely orchards of Central on Chapter House. But as is often the case, this is not just a casual stroll on a sunny day.

[Leo]

Can't be. Yeah.

[Abu]

This is a lesson.

[Leo]

Always.

[Abu]

There's a lesson to be learned here, always with the Bene Gesserit. Always a lesson to be learned here. And that's exactly what's happening. Odraid is teaching the young ghola a couple of key lessons that she wants to instill in him. Now, what's interesting is we're told that, unlike their handling of Duncan, T. Has known he's a ghola since he was just two years old.

[Leo]

That's insane. Yeah.

[Abu]

Which is very early to tell a Gola that you are actually a reincarnation of a dead person.

[Leo]

Yeah. Talk about, like, the idea of teaching a child about death. And you're like, so this is a lesson about death? There's a lot of caveats, a lot of footnotes on this. True. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. In particular for a Gola. And what's. What's quite interesting is Miles is taking this in stride. He's already starting to demonstrate some of the qualities of brilliance and Retention that made him one of history's most storied Mentat Bashars.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Two year old Miles Tag is not swayed by the fact that he's a goal. He's taking it in stride and taking all his lessons as they're taught, not.

[Leo]

To mention as he's like, I think we learned that he is when he was 7. He starts having some of these emergent memories, background memories, but some of them are like mentac capabilities in like a Child. So not only is this like we saw this in Heretics, where Duncan goes, I know the names of these trees, but the names of these trees aren't in any of my books. How did I learn them? That's so strange. Tag is like busting out full Mentat calculations in the background going, hmm, well, that's strange. I guess. Guess I figured that out.

[Abu]

Now let's get back to this walk and talk in the orchard. O' Draid and Miles are walking through the orchards and Odrade is pointing out some of the important plants, some that were, like you're saying, planted 1500 years ago in order for them to be able to now enjoy this lovely garden and the orchard that they're walking through and some of the woods. And throughout this discussion, we learn sort of what's been happening off page between the events of heretics and the last, you know, nine, ten years here on Chapter House. In particular, what's been happening with the worm, if you'll recall, the single worm that was saved from Dune before it was destroyed and brought here to Chapter House. And so far things seem to be progressing as planned. Perhaps the Wyrm has broken into Sandtrout, we're told. And then Odrade mentions that the desert in the south is beginning to expand. And in fact, these wonderful orchards, Miles, that you and I are walking through will one day be gone. They will be consumed by the desert.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And in fact, oh, Jade mentions that the harvest this year is especially rich because, quote, life breeds more intensely when threatened. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Abu]

And I don't think we have to point out, folks, that that's a thematic metaphor. Keep that in mind as we face the existential threat of the honored madres.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now let's get to the lesson that a Dre is trying to impart on Miles Tag here. She prompts him to think about ownership. Hey, Miles, are we the caretakers of Chapter House Planet? Do we own Chapter House Planet or does it own us? And this conversation sort of then naturally progresses into touching on topics like food and sustenance and labels.

[Leo]

They talk a lot about, like, words and that idea of, like, you give a label to something because that's like a very human instinct, but that's also dangerous and can lead to this, like, feeling of attachment and ownership to something that is itself an illusion. Very leto to coded. Again, I'm seeing some of, like, Leto2's ponderings wrapped up in Bene Gesserit like teachings and beliefs. And maybe that's just because Dread as a heretic is much more open to these sorts of ideas. It's cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, great point. Yeah. And we'll touch on that in our takeaway too. So let's wrap up chapter three. As this chapter winds down, their conversation settles in on the topic of closed ecosystems. We realize that Central has been so well planned. Again, speaking of Bene Gesserit systems and planning, that it is basically a closed ecological system. It is almost entirely self sustaining, which is quite impressive.

[Leo]

Mm.

[Abu]

But there's a danger here as well. You run the risk of stagnation when you close yourself off from the rest of the world. You run the risk of letting the rot at the core infect the rest of the system. And all of this talk, all of these lessons throughout this chapter click into place for Miles here at the end, he says, quote, you're farmers. That's really what you Bene Gesserit do. End quote. Which is true in some ways. They tend to humanity, the garden of humanity. Well, that's the note that chapter three ends on. And o' Drai does realize here. She recognizes, as we've been chatting about, that Miles's mentat skills are really beginning to blossom. Sticking with a garden theme there. And she decides that it's time for him to start learning about weapons. But not the kind that go pew, pew. Yeah, the kind that are in your mind, the Benny Jesuit kind.

[Leo]

I do like that. He's like, oh, I'm pretty good with weapons, like laser guns, swords, daggers, flip darts, kinjols. What do you mean? And she's like, yeah, metaphors. He's like, fuck. So, so off.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

I'm nine.

[Abu]

A nice reminder that he is still nine years old.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. He's like a gundam. I'm going to get a gundam. So those were our assigned chapters. Great start to the book. Abu, how are you feeling so far? Are you enjoying it?

[Abu]

I'm enjoying it. I have a lot of questions and I'm excited to basically not learn any of the answers. If I know anything about Breaker, probably.

[Leo]

Until the last third of the world.

[Abu]

I certainly get A lot of metaphor, politics and philosophy.

[Leo]

Yeah, I also had that. That feeling about like, okay, we're with a drade alone in her office. I wonder if we're going to get a lot of chapters where she's alone in her office thinking, we'll just have to stay tuned and find out. And glad to see tag back.

[Abu]

I'm buckled up. I'm excited.

[Leo]

I'm buckled up. Yeah, definitely tags back. That's exciting. Well, we do have a takeaway from today's reading, which we're going to get into right after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're talking xenophobia. I know.

[Abu]

Very super fun.

[Leo]

Super fun, light hearted, hilarious conversation. Incoming. Right after this.

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[Leo]

Kraft Mac and Cheese is the best thing ever. It's even better than pop music. You look just as natural enjoying us at age 13 as you do 1555. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. All right, now that we're done with our chapter summaries, Leo, let's get into our takeaway for today.

[Leo]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Abu]

Xenophobia. We gotta talk about this. We're establishing a huge theme up top very early on in this book. And this is gonna be a big one. This is gonna be a theme we're gonna wanna keep in mind for basically the rest of this book. So I think it's worth spending some time on this episode today breaking it down a bit further.

[Leo]

It's genuinely nuts that there's this much to talk about it three chapters into this book. Like it's. I'm almost scared at how dense this book is already. The first three chapters.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's going to be a big one. Especially considering now that we're at six books in, we have to consider five previous books as part of our research and analysis. Like, we don't get to just be like, this is a spoiler. Don't worry about it. And also, we only got to do.

[Leo]

That early on and we had the Dune Encyclopedia to lean on for the first few books. Now I'm like having to look up shit that was written by other people. And he's writing this in the 80s also. Listeners, I know how much you love with a capital L when we get political. So I'm sorry because I will say with this takeaway in particular, I think as always, Frank's writing has layers. And he always was someone who was. Even though at this point maybe he was kind of writing books as market demand was saying, hey, we want more Dune books. He clearly had strong feelings about society and was using these books to channel some of those beliefs. And it felt very particularly salient. I'm like, is this required reading for all Americans in 2025 where we are currently in a very divided, very like antagonizing society right now? Especially in the US where the other is often brandished as a weapon and a threat against people within our communities, within our borders. It's like this felt very, very targeted. Some of the quotes in the Bene Gesserit, you know, Honored Matre chapter, I was like, this feels like commentary about today. And I think that's a hallmark of Frank's type of commentary, which is about broader societal patterns. And then coincidentally, 50 years later, 60 years later, they're still true. And it's like, well, yeah, dang, guess we didn't fix them.

[Abu]

Absolutely. This takeaway, this theme from a book that was written, published in 1985, could not be more relevant today. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, so let's talk about it. Let's talk about the xenophobia, let's talk about the Honored Madre and let's talk about the Bene Gesserit. Those are going to be sort of our key things we're focusing, focusing on. Let's start with the Honored Matre. In chapter one, Odrade ponders the Honored Matres short sighted tactics, their brutality, how they're inevitably spelling their own doom even as they pose an existential threat to the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And like we said in the summary, we learn in that opening chapter that they've wiped out 16 planets. We learn about Palma, planet number 17. Presumably that's up on the docket next. Yeah, but ultimately o' Draid recognizes that this vicious war path that they're on is only going to lead to the Honored Matres own destruction. Quote, they would drown in red lubricant if they kept on this course. End quote. Red lubricant being blood, obviously.

[Leo]

Yeah. Being fruit gushers, the cherry flavored filling. No, wait, yeah. The imagery of red. You what? You don't like gushers. No. Oh, they're so good.

[Abu]

Weird texture. And then it explodes in my mouth and I'm like, what's happening?

[Leo]

Oh, that's the joy. That's the joy. That's the symbiotic relationship we have with the gusher creature.

[Abu]

I get me a nerd's gummy cluster any day of the week.

[Leo]

Okay, that's totally fair.

[Abu]

I just.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's. That's so funny. I was going to say there was a lot of that red lubricant imagery in the first chapter. Or they were talking about, like. Yeah, the war machines, the. The ships. They're all. This is how it. They're all powered. Yeah. Eli. Knowing the Honored Matres, that could just be red lube. Hello. It's like cherry flavored lube.

[Abu]

Yeah, Eli, you're so right. That's so true. Okay. It's a metaphor for either lube or blood. Take it as you go. Anyway, back to the point. Balanda and Tamlain disagree, actually on what's motivating the Honor Madres to do this. Tamerlane suggests that their bloodlust is just hysterics, while Belanda believes it's xenophobia. And we're going to focus on xenophobia today. Quote. Both were right. Odrade thought the Honored Matres behaved hysterically. All outsiders were the enemy. The only people they appeared to trust were the men they sexually enslaved, and those only to a limited degree. End quote. So Draid recognizes that Tamaline and Balanda are both basically defining the same thing using different terms.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

In short, Odrade puts it for, as pretty clearly. Quote. Xenophobia carried to a ridiculous extreme. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That is the greatest weakness of the Honored Madres that o' Draid intends to manipulate. And it's also a big theme of.

[Leo]

This book and is also very resonant today. Like, oh, my God, the news cycle, you mean. Oh, right, good. But let's take a sympathetic look at the Honored Matre, because if we were in their shoes, if we walked a mile in their athletic slippers, this extreme xenophobia might actually make total sense. Because we don't know the exact reason why the Honored Matre have returned. In Heretics, we had characters wondering, why would they come back? They're running from some unknown and terrifying danger. And we don't know a lot about the scattering. The Scattering? We learned about a guy who had a fucking sentient tree house. Like, it's a weird and wacky place with unknown threats and dangers and all this different stuff. So the fact that in that environment this order has grown to presume anyone who's not part of their immediate in group is a threat and a danger might have been the only way they were able to survive. Like that might have been a necessity given that external chaotic universe.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

And that, that mentality, that framework makes that prejudice, that violence, that unnecessary hysteria, it starts to feel more like a scared and defensive response. Something that is justifiable, but perhaps is something that, like the Bene Gesserit, they're clinging to it past its point of utility. Right. They are dogmatically embedded in that hysteria and that xenophobia.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

They're destroying entire worlds. Not because they are like absorbing that those resources and that wealth, but because they have this kind of compulsive need to eliminate potential threats. Even now in a part of the universe where they don't need to do that. And they are. They are blind to that reality. This also of course creates new enemies. So it's also a self defeating. Like they're never. That's never. That's not a solution that's going to lead to ultimate peace. You're just always going to be on the run from anyone who can. You know, the Tegs of the universe who suddenly become Super Saiyan because you fuck with them too much.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, the way Herbert describes the Great Honored Matre also feels like a pointed hint at the deep fear within them. Right. They are terrifyingly powerful. They've got the orange flecks, the retired athletic bodies, the sleek bodysuits, the pomegranate flavored lube everywhere. But their leader is, quote, a small woman with unremarkable features and muscles that twitched nervously. End quote.

[Abu]

What?

[Leo]

So I.

[Abu]

That is the description of their leader. I was blown away by this.

[Leo]

I love it. I love it. I mean, what, what a way to. To upset our expectations of the great villain. But the fact that like you have these, the muscles and a physical embodiment of capability that are twitching nervously even as she sits on the most powerful throne that exists, one of the most powerful entities, it's like, yeah, the most paranoid leaders are the ones with their. Their throne facing the back wall so no one can come up behind them. Right, Right. It's.

[Abu]

I loved it.

[Leo]

Oh, it's. It's so ironic. And, and as I mentioned, like this is self fulfilling. By their subjugation of every society, by their elimination of these planets, they are creating the counter response. This is also what the Bene Gesserit talk about in heretics. The idea of Force and counter force. You bring up the force that's going to repel you if you act so dramatically. And this creates conditions to rationalize their fear of outsiders. This all kind of self justifies. They're kind of in this feedback loop that, you know, makes it feel reasonable. Again, I could point at a certain news body in the United States and a certain mentality that might be growing in the last, I don't know, eight years or so. Careful, Leo. I know. Sorry. I'll tuck my shirt in. Yeah, it's this idea of like if you treat everyone else who's not in your immediate in group like shit, unsurprisingly they might treat you like back. And then you're just creating this animosity and these divides versus getting to know them and things like that. Like God, all of this felt so resonant. And yes, I again, maybe Frank was onto something. I don't know if we knew what color his eyes were at the end of his life, if they were blue within blue, I wouldn't have been surprised. Maybe he was glimpsing the societal patterns to come. It's a lot to think about.

[Abu]

That's great. Gosh, I, I really felt that reading these chapters and working on this takeaway as well. It's just how relevant this is today. The idea that like a xenophobic mindset is self defeating. Yeah, you're never going to escape a xenophobic mindset if you are always preemptively attacking the other, quote, the quote unquote other, the out group. You are antagonizing them in a way that you are always creating an enemy which then reinforces your own belief that there's always enemies out there, there's always others out there that you need to defend against. And so it is this like, like you said, it's a closed loop. It's this vicious circle that really feeds on itself and it is very difficult to break that cycle, to break that circle. And unfortunately in the U.S. but I think in many parts of the world today we're seeing that happen. Yeah, we're seeing these closed loops like really feed in on themselves and the rot at the core begin to eat away at head cultures and societies and economies. So yeah, deeply relevant to today.

[Leo]

So along these lines, right, the honored mater, by fundamentally approaching every interaction, every new entity as a confrontational threat, as a risk, they are not really learning or understanding their enemies beyond that transaction of like are you going to come out on top or am I? That is in particular super resonant in this book, as we compare that to the Bene Gesserit who have perfected this sense of like, information as a means of control. Almost every time we see a Bene Gesserit agent active in the field, the goal is like, how do I get as much information as possible? How do I in when shit hits the fan? How do I pass along as much information as I have? How do I codify this stuff? How do I make it as useful as possible? You know, Shuang Yu in her final moments as a heretic who's. Who's literally committing treason against Tar Taraza, she in her final moments goes, how do I help save the Bene Gesserit? By passing along information. That's the ultimate motivator for a lot of Bene Gesserit members. And as we see in the third chapter, Odrade explains this as like a deeply human desire to understand the things in their lives and to give those things Lab. So yeah, in the garden, right? In chapter three, Teg asks suspiciously Honored Matre flavored question where he's like, oh, all these plants are gonna die soon. Why should I learn their names if they're just gonna die? And I'm like, bro, chill. Everything's gonna die. That doesn't. What the fuck, Tag, you brilliant trying.

[Abu]

To get out of doing homework, which you gotta respect the hustle.

[Leo]

That's true. Tim. That's true too. But yeah, this idea of like, I could imagine the great on a matre going like, hey, I don't need to know your name. You're going to be dead soon. And it's like, great like that. That's an attitude that I could imagine the short sighted honor matre having. And o' Draid gives a very Bene Gesserit answer. Quote, because you're human and humans have this deep desire to classify, to apply labels to everything. End quote. But o' Draid warns that that same practice of labeling everything can also lead to a false sense of ownership that can be misleading. This sense that like absolutely that. That those labels have any kind of real weight in the universe. Right? The idea that your labels often don't even outlive you unless they're like the slop of people paying homage to someone who's dead and gone. It's like, God damn it. The disdain for words in some of o' Draid's words again rings very leto to for me, all that in a word. Lord.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah. Indeed. So Tag should label things. He should embrace that human desire to know and to understand and to. To really get under the skin of things. What are those aromatic plants that you're stepping on? Understand them and they will help you tap into those human memories and those things in your past. But also to believe doing so gives you eternal dominion over that thing is a dangerous mistake that he has to avoid. Like that's the balance. Be human, but don't cling too closely to the things that are impermanent. Which is, need I remind you all? Everything, as it turns out.

[Abu]

Everything on a long enough timeline, as Paul was apt to explain.

[Leo]

And Leto, even 3500 years is a blip in the face of eternity, right?

[Abu]

Indeed. Exactly. Now let's land this ship. Let's bring these ideas back around to xenophobia, because I want to consider this label conversation through that lens. Consider, folks, the hate and fear based labels that are often put on outsiders in the real world, in our world. Terrorist, alien, a very long list of ethnic slurs I found on the Internet that I will not be repeating here.

[Leo]

Say them all. Say them all right now.

[Abu]

As fast as I can.

[Leo]

It's a tongue twister.

[Abu]

The most racist tongue twister. Like these. These are labels we apply to out groups, right? Whoever your in group is, there's a tendency to apply labels to out groups. And these all serve to give ownership, right? Give ownership over the other group and to dehumanize them. To put yourself on a pedestal and put. And to put them beneath, right? And just like the Honored Matres, these labels and the hate that is behind them is actually just coming from a place of fear. This hidden core of deep fear and uncertainty. And again, looking at the world around us, looking at the politics around us, a lot of that fear is existential Fear over the economy, fear over your safety, fear over your culture, fear for your family. These fears are the rot that grows within and manifests itself as these hateful labels as xenophobia, as hysterical xenophobia. But Leo, here's the interesting thing and what I really appreciate about Odrade and why o' draid is one of my, one of my favorite characters in the series. She recognizes that the Bene Gesserit themselves are also not above all of this, right? Oh, the Honored Matre do this and they're hysterical, they're so xenophobic, they're so bloodthirsty, the Bene Gesserit. And frankly, anyone and everyone is capable of doing all of those things as well and becoming all of those things. You're not immune to similar fears of outsiders, of being too comfortable in your in group and closing the walls on outsiders.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And I think she puts it really, really beautifully at the end of chapter three when she's talking to Miles about the closed ecological system of central, which she kind of uses as a larger metaphor for the xenophobia idea. Quote, how tempting it is to raise high walls and keep out change rot here in our self satisfied comfort. Enclosures of any kind are a fertile breeding ground. Hatred of outsiders that produces a bitter harvest. End quote.

[Leo]

Bars, poetry. Bars, poetry.

[Abu]

Oh, my God, I loved that. And I think that puts a really lovely button on this takeaway. And I'm sure we'll be revisiting this theme many times throughout this book and revisiting this conversation as we get deeper. But as far as today, like that o' draid quote, felt like such a beautiful button on this idea of xenophobia and the honored matres. How the Bene Gesserit are different, but still everyone is capable of falling into the same quote, unquote hysteria, as Tammalaine would put it.

[Leo]

Yeah. And again, back to a bitter harvest. Back to the idea of growing and crops and, and farmers. And what do you. What do you do to cultivate a good crop? What are the practices? It's. It's. It's brilliant. Again, Frank knew how to cook sometimes for sure.

[Abu]

Well, that's our takeaway today, folks.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

All right, folks, that is our takeaway today for these opening three chapters. Can't believe we already had something so dense and so juicy to talk about. And we've barely cracked open this book. This is going to be a fun one. So let's take another quick break, but don't go anywhere. As you all know, we still have some spice morsels left on our plate and they're delicious, so stick around. Hope you're hungry. When we come back, we're chomping down on some spice morsels. We'll see you in a minute.

[Leo]

Banish mushrooms. Mmm.

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. We've got some spice morsels. Without further ado, let's dig into them. Our first spice morsel today has a name. Should have looked up how this is pronounced. It's probably just George. Might be Jorge. Not sure. I think it's George Santayana. That's our first spice morsel. And for all of you who know how it's pronounced and are screaming at me through your headphones, I'm so sorry. In today's reading, among the Bene Gesserit's inner lives echoes the voice of someone named Santayana saying, quote, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. End quote. And I know, I know this is the first time you've heard that great combination of words. He said sarcastically, I feel like I've seen this in every Etsy shop since Etsy was first founded. It's so real, it's so basic at this point, but it's interesting to see it written in a 1980s book. Like, again, this is not a recent book, so we wanted to dig into that quote a little bit to understand better why Frank pulled it for this chapter in this book. Like if an author in 2025 uses it, it's like, okay, that's heavy handed, but this is right 40 years ago. So interesting thing to consider. Here's. Here's the actual origin of the quote. It was. George Santayana was a Spanish philosopher. He was a poet, he was a novelist. He was born in 1863 and wrote, among other things, the Life of Reason, the Phases of Human Progress, a five volume book published starting in 1905. This quote is 120 years old. This is the origin of that quote. It's in, I think the third or fourth book. And no matter, I promise you, no matter how many Etsy storefronts feature it on engraved, salvaged, you know, driftwood, perfect for your rustic cabin. Frank wrote this book in the 80s.

[Abu]

Damn.

[Leo]

And I also have to come for.

[Abu]

My cabin so hard. It's my lovely rustic cabin.

[Leo]

Charming, I appreciate it, but it's basic. What do you have? Vanilla scented candles. Wow, Revolutionary. It's wine o' clock somewhere. Abu and I, I wanted to point out the full quote actually goes so hard and ultimately sounds like it would fit perfectly in with stuff that Leto talks about. Quote. When experience is not retained as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life, the mind is frivolous and easily distracted. It misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians in whom instinct has learned nothing from experience. End quote. Bars I love that. Dunk on children, you little barbarians. Be more consistent, more consecutive, more persistent. What are you doing? I love that full quote. And now I'm like, well, I've got to read that book. That sounds like a great book. So that book was in pretty consistent circulation by the time Frank was doing his research for all of these novels. So it's possible Frank read it directly from that 1905 book. There is, of course, as you mentioned, Abu, the Winston Churchill speech. I think it was 48 or there was also an ad campaign that featured. It was called the Great Ideas of Western man that ran from the 50s to the 70s. And millions and millions of people saw it there whether wherever Frank saw it in the broader context of this story, the Honored Matre sound awfully like that. This idea of what they lack is the Bene Gesserit other memory. So the Benn Jesuit minus consecutiveness and persistence could fall into that barbaric like behavior. And for that reason, personally, my own personal opinion, I somewhat think that Frank read the whole book. The Life of Reason, the phases of human progress. Seems like the kind of thing he'd be into as he writes about humanity and the long story of humanity. So anyway, very interesting origin to us to a quote that. That again, you will very likely see custom engraved in a locket that you can get From Etsy for 1499, delivered tomorrow. Real stainless steel. Give it to your lover, you know. But that quote is 120 years old and very likely made its way into Dune thanks to George Santayana.

[Abu]

That's right. I also want to call out Shane's comment in the chat. Shane says, I prefer that quote over Live Laugh Love Same.

[Leo]

And Live Laugh Love still somehow better than fear is the mind killer. So come at me. Holy.

[Abu]

That is a controversial thing to say. Incredible.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Anyway, I don't know if I stand by it, but that is very funny.

[Abu]

All right, let's quickly move on to morsel number two, folks. Let's talk about magic mushrooms. So in today's reading, o' Draid explains the idea of symbiosis to Miles Tag with an interesting example. An example about harvesting mushrooms. Quote, fungi don't grow except in the company of friendly roots. Each has a symbiotic relationship with a special plant. Each growing thing takes something it needs from the other. End quote. Okay, the reason this caught our ears is because there's always a lot of talk about what drugs. Perhaps Frank Herbert was on when he came up with Dune.

[Leo]

Sure. Yeah.

[Abu]

Where did some of these ideas come from? I say that a bit facetiously. I think genuinely spice melange being a psychoactive drug is something that's interesting. And I think Frank Herbert was quite open in interviews and stuff about experimenting with certain things.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we wondered whether or not he had ever experimented with mushrooms.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And it turns out, based off of a source that he may have, and in fact, magic mushrooms might have played a bigger role in him coming up with Dune than you might have thought. So in a book by Paul Stamets titled Mycelium Running How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World, Stamets tells this story. In chapter nine of that book, he introduces the reader to one of Frank Herbert's techniques about growing mushrooms.

[Leo]

And to be clear, non mycelium mushrooms in that specific instance, because it's like chanterelle mushrooms. Frank was, is documented a avid fan of growing and harvesting mushrooms, but they were like, more for cooking and just like, culinary.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then had, I think, documented one or two instances of magic mushrooms specifically. I only say that because Paul Stamets is a, is a huge advocate for mycelium, like, magic mushrooms. And I just want to keep those threads separate, but I thought that this quote was, was groundbreaking. So anyway, I'll stop interrupting.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, no, that, that's a good distinction. If Stamets in this chapter, like, went to Herbert's house and interviewed him to talk about just, like, whatever, growing techniques, general growing techniques, like, general, like, unrelated to, like, you know, mycelium and magic mushroom use.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But in that very same chapter, Stamets then writes about something else that Frank tells him. Quote. Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune, the magic spice spores that allowed the bending of space tripping, the giant sandworms, maggots digesting mushrooms, the eyes of the Fremen, the cerulean blue of psilocyb mushrooms, the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserit, influenced by the tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico, came from his perception of the fungal life cycle. And his imagination was stimulated through the experiences with the use of magic mushrooms. End quote. Yeah.

[Leo]

Almost unbelievable. And I wonder if Frank just was, like, indulging this, like, mushroom enthusiast and going, oh, yeah, there are these connections as a way of, like, making conversation. And Paul Stamets was like, bet I'm gonna cement this as, like, this whole conversation. The origin of Dune. It's crazy. I, I, so I also want to caveat, like, this is coming from a very, like, a very active mushroom, like what's the word? Activist. So this lens of like, everything is mushrooms, grain of salt, heavily salted, huge grain of salt. Handful. A handful of salt can buy you a house on no planet. It's cheap as shit. Point is, Paul Stamets, I think it's worth taking this all very with a grain of salt, but it is fun to hear this firsthand account of a conversation with Frank about mushrooms.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And where then he's going, well, what plant cycle could I draw from in this lesson to tag? That's great.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I read this quote and I went, stamet's really popping off here and perhaps making a lot of connections that I don't know that Frank himself explicitly stated and made. And I agree. Like, I do think, like, if Stamets is visiting him, they're talking about this thing that Stamets is going to write about Frank showing him his garden. Whatever. I think in conversation, the topic of mushrooms and life cycles of fungi would have just kind of been in the air. And yeah, maybe Frank would have made some connections. But yeah, I personally think Stamets is reaching a little bit here in this. I don't know that everything in Dune we can directly connect to magic mushroom use.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But it's still. It's still interesting. And I do think it's. This quote is kind of puts to rest. Like, did it Frank use magic mushrooms? Yes, he did. Stamets says that explicitly in the final sentence. So that at least is true. His imagination certainly stimulated by outside resources. I don't think Frank was shy about that.

[Leo]

Well, those are our spice morsels for today. Hope you enjoyed them, Dear listener. Interestingly weird deep dive. I now have the ebook of the mycelium running, How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World on my Kindle. So maybe I'll read that and learn how mushrooms can help save the world.

[Abu]

Mushroom Facts.

[Leo]

Every episode, Mushroom Facts, I'll be bringing you hot mushroom facts, as well as Excerpts from the 1905 the Life of Reason, the phases of human progress. Our reading list is growing extensively. But nevertheless, dear listener, that is where we're going to end today's episode. So for the next episode, as always, we have homework for you. Read the next three chapters, chapters four through six, and this is it, depending on what version you have, until the chapter that ends with a sentence quote. And I accept it, as he knew I would. End quote.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Great time. Whatever that means. We'll find out next three chapters.

[Abu]

Yeah, read that. You know what? I suspect that quote is something to do with mushrooms if I had to put money down. Something to do with fungi and the life cycle and accepting it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Someone was like, eat this edible. And you're like, okay. And I accept it as they knew I would. And then the walls are melting and you're like, hey, what a great time. This is fun.

[Abu]

All right, folks, that's where we're going to wrap up this first episode of the Chapter House Teen Book Club. I hope you are just as excited as we are to get into this book and dive deep into the words of Frank Herbert, the final words of Frank Herbert as far as the Dune saga is concerned. Before we let you go, a couple of quick reminders as always, at the end of the episode. First up, we want to remind you that the two best ways to support the show and help us continue to make episodes like this and continue to deep dive into the dune universe is one become a patron patreon.com jabbar and two check out our Dune themed swag on our merch store. All of those links are in the show notes below. So after you're done listening, take a peek.

[Leo]

And of course, we love to hear from you. So did you do the reading? Did you want to share with us your thoughts, your questions, your takeaways from these first three chapters? Email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com that is the best way to get in touch with us. We respond in three to seven business years and we love to hear from you. So if you have thoughts, you have questions, concerns, feedback, pictures of your cute pets, demands for additional side reading, I don't know, whatever you want, email us. It's an email. You can just type nice things to us and send that as well. It's always nice to get a quick, short email. That's just nice. It's very pleasant.

[Abu]

That's right. And look, when you're doing the math, remember that not every year is a business year. All right?

[Leo]

Yeah, that's true.

[Abu]

Don't just do simple arithmetic there. You got to carry the one and divide and do the square root of. You'll figure it out. Not every year is a business year.

[Leo]

Skip ahead to chapter three. Nine years will have passed. You'll have received a response by chapter three. So.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadi and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Barty. And we're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.