Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 4)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Book Club – Chapterhouse Dune (Part 4)

Hosts: Abu and Leo | Date: January 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this installment of the Gom Jabbar Book Club, Abu and Leo delve into their reading of chapters 10-12 (ACE paperback) of Frank Herbert’s Chapterhouse: Dune. The episode focuses on three particularly dense and revelatory chapters, scrutinizing key themes of power, memory, survival, and the philosophical and practical contrasts between the Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres. The hosts also explore Herbert's narrative decisions, speculate on unresolved plot threads, and explain notable idioms and references, all while maintaining their characteristic mix of deep analysis and playful banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chapter Summaries and Major Events

Chapter 10 – Duncan Idaho’s Revelations

• Duncan Idaho, now confirmed as a Mentat, possesses all the memories of his serial ghola versions, which makes the Bene Gesserit nervous given their fraught history with Kwisatz Haderachs ([06:30]).
  • “He had to bring the deadly issue into the open. I'm not another Kwisatz Haderach.” – Duncan ([10:00])
• Duncan hides his power, aware it unsettles the Sisters; Odrade confronts him directly, and proposes he serve as her Mentat ([11:10]).
• This scene “gave me goosebumples. Is that Duncan is having visions ... there's this like shimmering net that appears in the sky. ... It's kind of a what his senses can't understand.” – Leo ([07:31])
  • Duncan’s visions involve mysterious figures, Marty and Daniel, hinting at forces beyond his understanding.
• Duncan tries to negotiate for greater access to NO ship data to support his escape plans ([12:48]).

Chapter 11 – Scytale’s Ambitions and Secrets

• Scytale, the last Bene Tleilaxu master, is held captive on the same NO ship. He’s under Bene Gesserit surveillance but is bargaining for privileges in return for Tleilaxu secrets ([13:23]).
• Scytale carries a ‘null entropy tube’ containing DNA samples of key historical figures including Paul Atreides, Chani, Stilgar, Gurney, Thufir Hawat, and Duncan Idaho ([16:40]–[17:46]).
  • “If your DNA is not in this nolentropy tube, who the fuck are you?” – Abu ([17:49])
• Scytale’s plan is to eventually resurrect these figures to “people a Tleilaxu universe” ([18:23]).
• The hosts highlight Scytale’s use of ‘typicals’ to map patterns in Bene Gesserit behavior, and his observation of Odrade as atypical.
• His goal: to connect with Duncan using an ancient Tleilaxu whistling language, in hopes of leveraging his ghola conditioning ([22:51]).

Chapter 12 – Lucilla’s Ordeal on Junction

• Lucilla, presumed dead multiple times by this point, is a starving prisoner in a cage within a cage, at the mercy of the Honored Matres ([29:07]).
• The honored Matres’ headquarters is a labyrinth, confusing even to its inhabitants ([30:29]). Lucilla maps its interior, holding out hope for escape despite near-certain doom.
• Grand Honored Matre Dama interrogates Lucilla, swinging between threatening violence and attempting to win her over—possibly seeking Bene Gesserit ‘science’ and organizational skill ([32:06]–[34:57]).
  • “What is she capable of?...I found this chapter extremely fascinating…” – Abu ([33:34])
• Their conversation is marked by mutual miscommunication: Lucilla pushes Dama’s patience, hoping for a swift death, while Dama awkwardly solicits Lucilla’s opinion of the Honored Matres ([37:31]).
  • “Do you find us attractive? ... I mean, you have a weak chin.” – Leo/Abu ([36:01])
• The interaction reveals the Honored Matres’ underlying insecurity and hints at their need for Bene Gesserit stability and knowledge.

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2. Themes and Takeaways

Power & Control: Bene Gesserit vs. Honored Matres

• The episode’s main analytical thread is the contrasting philosophies of the two orders.
  • “You controlled your universe. You did not balance with it. ... You looked outward, never inward.” – Lucilla’s reflection ([46:30])
• The Bene Gesserit master subtle power, restraint, inward focus, and long-term planning. They see themselves as custodians of memory and continuity.
• The Honored Matres, conversely, are impulsive, outward-projecting, focused on raw, immediate power, dismissive of the past (e.g., “Who could possibly need accounts of the Butlerian Jihad?” – Dama ([51:07])).
• Both groups represent extremes; Herbert’s narrative suggests the survival of either depends on finding balance between subtlety and force, tradition and adaptability.

Parallel with Hasmir Fenring

• Leo draws an analogy between the Bene Gesserit's “inwardness” and Hasmir Fenring's latent, unused power, contrasting it with Paul Atreides’ world-changing will.
  • “Talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion.” ([63:22]–[65:58])
• The lesson: possessing power but never acting is as dangerous as unrestrained violence.

Survival, Adaptation, and the Mirror Theme

• Leto II’s question—when will the Bene Gesserit come out of the shadows?—is echoed here. To face the existential threat of the Honored Matres and the universe’s changes, the order must evolve ([56:41]–[57:24]).
• The Honored Matres’ disregard for history (“Library? We burned it. It was just recipes.”—paraphrased) is juxtaposed with the BG’s over-reliance on it.

Pleasure, Humanity, and the Immediate Moment

• Hosts highlight Herbert’s critique: the Bene Gesserit’s mastery of sexuality as a tool, contrasted with the Honored Matres’ full embrace of it as pleasure.
• “They are living. ... Having sex, eating. ... Alive in a way the Bene Gesserit deny themselves ... to what end?” – Leo ([58:03])

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Odrade confronts him, ready to just, like, dispel with the cat and mouse game: ‘Listen, dog, we know you're a mentat.’” – Leo ([09:10])
• “I love Odrade. She's so good. The goat. The absolute goat.” – Leo/Abu ([22:06]–[22:13])
• “If your DNA is not in this nolentropy tube, who the fuck are you?” – Abu ([17:49])
• “I think Lucilla’s going to get knocked down seven times and back up eight.” – Abu ([83:18])
• The discussion of Bene Gesserit dining habits vs. Honored Matres collecting recipes and living in the moment ([69:02]).

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4. Idioms and Cultural References Explained

“Whistling Past the Graveyard” ([73:10])

• Means pretending confidence when threatened or afraid; explored as a subtle burn by Lucilla towards Dama, implying the Honored Matre are ignoring the existential threat they’ve created.

“The Worm Turns” ([76:25])

• Indicates that the oppressed or weak may become powerful—Lucilla hints that the Bene Gesserit could flip the script on the Honored Matres just as the Matres did on the Futars.

“Seven Times Down, Eight Times Up” ([78:54])

• Reference to the Japanese proverb (nana korobi ya oki) and the Daruma (Bodhidharma) doll, symbolizing resilience. The hosts explain the origins and tie it back to Lucilla’s enduring survival.

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5. Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Duncan and Odrade's Showdown: [05:41] – [11:16]
• Scytale’s Null Entropy Tube & Lore Bomb: [13:51] – [18:42]
• Bene Gesserit vs. Honored Matre Philosophy Deep Dive: [44:20] – [61:20]
• Idioms (“Whistling Past the Graveyard”, “Worm Turns”) Explained: [73:07] – [77:31]
• Japanese Proverb, Daruma Doll, and Lucilla’s Resilience: [78:11] – [83:18]

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Flow and Tone

The hosts maintain a playful, nerdy, and irreverent tone, using humor to punctuate deep literary analysis. They openly speculate, demonstrate their fandom (and exasperations) with the lore, and share mutual respect and good-natured ribbing throughout. Language is informal but informed, with a recurring motif of saying what most longtime readers are thinking (“No one’s ever said ‘favorite character: Scytale!’”).

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an excellent example of how Gom Jabbar pairs scholarship and fandom. Abu and Leo not only break down complex Dune lore and themes with clarity but also create a welcoming space for both newcomers and veteran fans to reflect on Herbert’s continuing relevance. Their engagement with the text is deep, their explanations of obscure references are enlightening, and their speculation about plot holes (e.g., Scytale’s resurrection) invites listeners to become active participants in the ongoing discussion.

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Next Homework:
Read chapters 13–15 (ACE paperback) or up to the chapter ending: “I can think like at least one honored matre.”

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“There is no real ending. It’s just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic.” – Abu ([86:28])

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Contact & Support:

• Email: gomjabarpodcastmail.com
• Patreon & merch links in show notes
• Send questions for the upcoming mailbag episode!

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Transcript

[Abu]

He was aware when the episode came that he was not really hearing a deep dive. His mind translated what the senses could not define. Then the episode would end and he would see two people, a man and another man. How ordinary they appeared, and yet extraordinary.

[Leo]

Thanks.

[Abu]

A nerd. And another nerd in antique clothing, a black T shirt, working on a Dune podcast. The two of them. He thought it must be more of the illusion. I am hearing this, but it is not really what I hear.

[Leo]

Mmm. Bars, bars, bars. Ordinary. Okay, yeah. Nerds. Okay, fair enough. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are getting back into the pages of Chapter House Dune.

[Abu]

Scytale. Side tail.

[Leo]

Side tail.

[Abu]

He's back.

[Leo]

Favorite character said no one. Yeah, it's what a. This is when, like, we decided at one point not to do 50 pages at a time. We'd do chapters at a time.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I feel like that backfired today because every chapter was so dense and there was so much to talk about. Yeah, I know, but good chapters. I say that every episode, but I'll say that this episode with my full chest. Now, before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping. Shout out Mapes. Or a golov shout out Mapes is smiling in the corner creepily. But let's take care of our housekeeping. And as usual, that kicks off with our spoiler warning. And as usual, today is will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we've covered thus far. So if you've caught up with the book club, you are safe to read, safe to listen. You are safe to be here. You're safe here. We love you.

[Abu]

This is a safe space. Indeed.

[Leo]

This is.

[Abu]

This is now, of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Hadrack level patrons. Count them, folks. Daniel Dion, Seth Red and greer. Brad Hutchins 3. Kevin Mahanram, 4. And our latest Quezadz Haderach level patron, Roger Young.

[Leo]

Damn crazy.

[Abu]

Absolutely incredible, folks. Not only is that a list of our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, that is also the list of the DNA I secretly have stashed in the noanthropy tube.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That I keep in a necklace around my neck at all times.

[Leo]

I have mine implanted in my sternum. And it's painful. Every time someone joins the Kwisatz had level tier, I have to get it surgically extracted, updated with the new DNA that we have to meticulously capture. It's a lot.

[Abu]

It's a lot of work, but it's worth it because our Kwisatz Haderik level patrons are truly so generous. Thank you all so much.

[Leo]

God, that's such a real thing for podcast producers to be like. If I were to populate a new universe, I would definitely be the people who support us the most.

[Abu]

Yeah, 100%.

[Leo]

That's the universe we picture.

[Abu]

That's the universe we picture. Of course, all the rest of our patrons at every level are also invited to that universe. Doors open for them as well because our heartfelt thank yous also extend to all of you who support at every level because you truly help build the foundation upon which this show runs.

[Leo]

And listen, if you're not in a place right now to be a monthly supporter on Patreon and you want that entry ticket to that universe that we're going to be populating after the end times, don't forget, you can still show your appreciation with a one time tip. That link is in the show notes. That is also a way to. Yeah, I mean, this is. This is all a metaphor, of course, but it is. It is real, but it's also a metaphor.

[Abu]

Thank you so much. All right, today's episode. You all know the drill for these book clubs. We will begin today by summarizing today's chapters. Then we'll dive deep into a takeaway. And finally, we'll wrap up by chomping down on some yummy spice morsels. Two really fun ones today.

[Leo]

They are nutrient dense.

[Abu]

But before we get into all of that. Leo.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Let's take a quick break. Let's compose ourselves. Let's walk around this snowship a little bit.

[Leo]

Yep. Stretch the legs.

[Abu]

Don't go anywhere. Dear listener, we'll be right back.

[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your little saunter around the no ship. Let's get into today's chapters. Beginning our first chapter today, rides along with Duncan Idaho. Hello, love. A main character in Dune. He is exploring his no Ship prison. And from his thoughts, we get a few pretty shocking revelations. We just want to cover up here at the top of this summary.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, as the Bene Gesserit has suspected, we've. We've kind of gotten this disgust between Belanda and o' Draid already. And we kind of already know this from the End of heretics. But yeah, Duncan is a mentat. We get full confirmation of that today. And he possesses the memories of all of the serial Duncans. Every Duncan Gola, he has their memories, including their like myriad abilities. So he knows of course that this is going to make the Bene Gesserit very nervous.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

In fact this is why he's hiding that he's a mentat. Because that's the only explanation for that is that he is more than just the like two lives. But he knows this is going to make them nervous because they have a messy history with Kwisatz Haderachs.

[Abu]

You don't say.

[Leo]

And that seems awfully Kwisatz Haderachi. You know, that's. I don't.

[Abu]

It's giving, it's giving.

[Leo]

Your astronauts astrological chart is pivotal universe rising. You know, I know it's. It's very Scorpio. Now we learn that Duncan has been training males in sexual bonding for the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Funny throwaway line.

[Leo]

Throwaway line, just right in there. This is also where I argue that like Frank makes this book very about sex, but it's not very sexy. Like they don't talk about like what they're. He just goes, yeah, yeah, they're doing that. And you go, yeah. Oh, okay. We're just moving on from that. Okay, sure. And they're being sent out as little like guerrilla agents. Sexy little sex fucking guerrilla agents to like mess with the honored matre. And all I have to say is asking for a friend. Where does one sign up? That sounds like great training.

[Abu]

What's the job? What's the job application process like?

[Leo]

Right. I'm recently married. I've got a woman to please, you know, how do I get into these classes? This is great. Now finally and most mysteriously and honestly, this is I think some of Frank's best writing in this chapter. I fucking loved it. Oh, gave me goosebumples. Is that Duncan is having visions that trigger when he enters the great hold. The smell of the cinnamon spice, the, you know, the memories, everything. There's this like shimmering net that appears in the sky. This infinite aurora borealis. But he's recognizing it's not really what he's seeing. It's not literal. It's kind of a what his senses can't understand.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And this includes a pair of people who are like, yo, what the fuck? He can see us. Hello. Whoa. That guy's hot. Joined this FaceTime main character just joined our telegram chat. And at one point the woman of the two, Marty speaks of danger.

[Abu]

She goes, yeah.

[Leo]

Does he know he's in, like, crazy danger right now?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And that word danger always kind of snaps him back to being in the. In the great hold. It kind of breaks the illusion a little bit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So spooky. We're gonna have to wait to find out what that is. Now he is in the hold, ready for another glimpse of this mysterious man and woman. He's wondering, why do I have all of these memories? I do not have samples of every ghola, but I have memories from every Gola. Like, I have memories from Golas that the Tleilaxu could not have sampled for my serial memories. Yeah, maybe.

[Abu]

Fascinating.

[Leo]

Yeah. And maybe these two people, maybe that's part of the mystery. Maybe that's connected. He's trying to find answers. He's not exactly sure. And he forgot to close the door, I guess, because Odrade like horror movies in behind him where it's like, camera is showing the right of him, and then it whips across him, and then she's there and, you know, big music Sting. Hello, Duncan. You know? Yeah. So Odrade confronts him, and she's ready to just, like, dispel with the cat and mouse game. She's like, listen, dog, we know you're a mentat. We can stop playing. We can stop. I fucking know it. And Duncan's like, all right. Yeah. And he effectively admits to it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And he admits to having these serial memories, but knowing that his life is in the balance, he is adamant, quote, he had to bring the deadly issue into the open. I'm not another Kwisatz Haderach, end quote. And of course, she's like, yeah, we'll wait, we'll see. We'll see. Tbd, huh? Now, following this adamant claim for his. His life, they have a revealing chat. And o' Draid catches him up on kind of what's been going on. We've got worms. ETA any day now. Apparently, we've put out a bunch of spice in the desert that's going to be a part of this catalyst. And we are successfully scattering Bene Gesserit out into the. Out into the universe with their sand trout in tow. And Duncan is shocked to silence a couple of times by the craziness of what she's saying.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And ultimately, the chapter builds to this moment when o' Draid makes a bold, bold proposition. He goes, will you be my mentat, Duncan? Whoa. She wants him to serve as her mentat. And we have to ask, is this simply a hiring process? Is this her on Indeed.com inviting a qualified candidate to the role. Or is she up to something?

[Abu]

You never know. You never know with the Mother Superior.

[Leo]

Oh, you never know. And, man, I'm so excited to come back to this chapter. Once we've been through the whole book. I feel like every Ohrade chapter is going to be worth its own examination after we're done with this book. Because I feel like she's always fucking up to something. And I feel that, especially in this chapter, Duncan mentions at one point feeling in danger and how rare that is with Odrade. And I'm like, oh, what does that mean? I feel like we're going to have a lot more to chew on when we come back to this.

[Abu]

Yeah, this set of three chapters today for sure made it very difficult to avoid spoiler territory, because without saying anything, dear listener, there's a lot of foreshadowing in these three chapters.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's true. Now, Duncan doesn't really have a choice in this proposition. He's not exactly in a place to reject that job offer again. Indeed, it's kind of a new feature you're forced into whatever role they offer you. But he uses the opportunity to at least negotiate his wage a bit. He says, hey, what I've really been wanting is unlimited access to the data contained in the consoles on the NO ship. And we don't know. He's kind of like, mentioned in his head, I'm planning an escape, but it's not the kind that they expect, and we don't really know what that means. But he needs data. He needs information for that escape. And luckily, as he is now being propositioned to be a mentat for Odrade, that gives him a good excuse. Well, if you want me to be a mentat, I need data. And so this is how you're going to give me that?

[Abu]

A mentat is only as good as the data coming in.

[Leo]

Indeed, the critical flaw of many Mentats. And Odrade will bring it up with the Council and she's going to ask for it and we're going to see if they get that. Nevertheless, whatever the reason. Yeah. That information is the snitch that he's trying to catch.

[Abu]

That's right. Okay, moving on to chapter 11. This is wild. We're with a character that's barely been mentioned for many books now. Yeah, chapter 11. We join the last Benny Tleilax master in the entire universe, Scytale.

[Leo]

Crazy Craz Crazy.

[Abu]

Absolutely shocking stuff we learn in this chapter that Scytale is currently being held prisoner by the Bene Gesserit in the same notion as Duncan and Merbella. He's just stuck in a different section that's walled off. There's a barrier. They can't speak to each other. They can see each other every now and then in the hallways, but they can't speak to each other. He's also a captive here. And what's interesting is he seems to be mostly left to his own devices. As long as he doesn't cause issues. I mean, there's clearly a scratch your back, scratch my back agreement here. Yeah, he's under the Bene Gesserit protection because it's obviously the Tillylax who have been wiped out at this point. And in return, he is giving them little tidbits of Benny Tleilax information, like information on the axolotl tanks.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

However, he is still a prisoner, so let's be clear about this. He's under constant surveillance by the Bene Gesserit. Those Kamis are constantly watching him. And we learn from his thoughts in this chapter that at this point he is certain that the Sisterhood have been lying, that they believe in the great belief that Tlei lacks. Who? Religion. If you'll recall in Heretics, this is something that both Tarazah and Odrade and used to great effect in order to trick Wof.

[Leo]

Yeah, right, right.

[Abu]

Into thinking the Bene Gesserit were secret allies all along. That bubble seems to have burst. Scythill doesn't believe this anymore. Luckily, he still believes it. And in fact, he believes that he has been chosen as the last Benny Tleilax master in the universe by God. That this whole predicament that he finds himself in, that the Tleilaxu find themselves in, is an ultimate test from God. This is really intense main character energy from our guy Scytale, who's barely been in this book series. To be clear, not the main character, but he really sees himself in that position. Obviously, he is undergoing a test. He will overcome it.

[Leo]

That's so funny. He's very much like. And I'm going to come out on top because I hear my theme music every time I'm in the room. And we were like, yeah, my guy, you're barely in this book.

[Abu]

You're barely in this whole series. I'm shocked to see your name back here again on these pages, actually.

[Leo]

Honestly baffled. Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, part of his plan for the return of the Benny Tleilax, once he overcomes this test from God, is what he has hidden in a Nolanthropy tube. Or was it nullantropy? How do I say that?

[Leo]

Nullantropy. Oh, oh, wait, wait, wait. Null entropy. Because it's a place where entropy is kept in check. Null entropy.

[Abu]

Oh, null entropy. Oh, my gosh.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

I just connected that.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

Like, holy shit.

[Leo]

Maybe we leave this in the episode.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

What the fuck? I've been saying null entropy this whole fucking time, but it's null entropy for years. It's a null entropy tube.

[Abu]

Interesting. So the ace upside tail sleeve is this hidden null entropy tube that he carries on his body that contains.

[Leo]

Something.

[Abu]

Called the DNA of his fellow Tleilaxu masters who all perished.

[Leo]

Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

It contains the DNA of many important face dancers that they would love to bring back.

[Leo]

You need slaves. Yeah, gotcha.

[Abu]

As well as a couple of very important people that aren't necessarily Benny Tleilax, members of that society. But, you know, certainly chips they want to keep.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

In case they play them.

[Leo]

Anyone I'd recognize, like, I don't know if.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, let me throw. Throw out some examples. Here's the. Here's some of the DNA in this null entropy, too.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The DNA of Paul Atreides. Ever heard of him?

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

His lover, Johnny.

[Leo]

Okay. Don't want him to be lonely.

[Abu]

His right hand and best friend, Stilgar.

[Leo]

Oh, my God, he's so hot. Okay, sure, sure, sure.

[Abu]

His mentors, Gurney, Alec and Thu Fear.

[Leo]

So hot. Except for Thu Fear. Oh, my go.

[Abu]

And of course, because we can never be rid of this guy, the DNA of the original Nugget, Idaho, main character in Dune.

[Leo]

Also, Chapel Roan. Probably. I don't know. Probably. Yeah.

[Abu]

All the important.

[Leo]

T. Swift. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Honestly, if your DNA is not in this nolentropy tube, who the fuck are you?

[Leo]

Yeah, check yourself.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, check yourself. Absolutely incredible reveal that Scythill just. Is just walking around with this original DNA that, of course, the Bene Tleilax, and at this point, the Bene Gesserit have the knowledge to recreate.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You could bring back ghola versions of all of these people. You could trigger their original memories and effectively have them back. Scytale's plan, of course, is to use these people to create a new universe of the Tleilax.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Quote, enough potential servants and slaves to people. A Tleilaxu universe. End quote. So it might seem like the Bene Tillylecs are on the back foot, and they certainly are, but I don't think they are off the Board completely. Despite Scytale being the only surviving master in this universe.

[Leo]

As Lucilla will say, the worm often turns. Now, another big part of this chapter is what I would say Scytale calls typicals, which I thought was really interesting. I thought this was cool. Basically, his method of mapping patterns. And throughout this chapter, he's talking about, oh, the Bene Gesserit are typical. Like, typical. How typical of them to do X, Y and Z. Right. It feels, again, poignant that Frank is giving us an outsider who's in close proximity to some of the highest and most important Bene Gesserit members, able to comment on them and to look at them and to look at their order to see how does this outsider measure the Bene Gesserit? And also, and in particular a lot of this chapter is how does Odrade fit into those typicals? How does Odrade fit into the. How typical of the Bene Gesserits? And also, how does she avoid those typicals? How does she deny them? How does she exist as a heretic among the Bene Gesserit kind of milieu? You know, it's very. It feels very intentional. So I really enjoyed that. It's a whole different way to look at it. But it's interesting coming from his perspective. And there's some very funny moments that we'll reference in a second.

[Abu]

Yeah. In particular, music as a theme comes up a couple of times. The Bene Gesserit not enjoying music, but then, oh, Jade humming a tune later in a scene. So there's indications that, oh, Jade is a little bit outside of the typical fold, the typical Bene Gesserit fold. And that's confusing to someone like Scyto who is so used to the Bene Gesserit acting in a. In a very typical way. All right, back to the chapter summary here. Continuing in this chapter, there's a moment where Scytale then reflects back on a conversation he recently had with o'. Draid. This was part of the ongoing negotiations, clearly, that Scytale has with the Bene Gesserit. They're meeting, they're chatting. It's sort of typical Dune at this point. A lot of heretics has conversations like this. A lot of this book has conversations like this. Two people sitting in a room talking. A verbal tap dance where each side is trying not to give up too much while trying to pry information out of the other. Odrade's ask for Scytale in this conversation is pretty straightforward. She wants more information. She needs to know specifically how the Bene Gesserit can produce spice with the axolotl tanks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Scytale, on the other hand, as we discussed earlier, if you'll recall, Null Entropy Tube, all of the VIPs of the universe are in there. He wants to create a universe that is populated only. Only by the Benny Tlal.

[Leo]

Easy. Yeah.

[Abu]

Just that this is the ultimate goal.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

That. That is part of their great belief that they will be the inheritors of the entire universe. But for the moment, in his current predicament, he would be happy just to have some face dancer servants of his own here in the NO ship with him. And he also wants access to the ship system console. He also wants to be able to surf the web without parental controls.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So how do these negotiations pan out? Well, this quote is incredible, and I'm so glad you put it in here. Quote. When their meeting ended without anything gained for him, Scytale found himself more confused than ever. End quote.

[Leo]

God damn it. I love o'. Draid. She's so good.

[Abu]

The goat. The absolute goat.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Steph Curry. Who Odrade fucking confuses people. They don't have any idea. It's so good.

[Abu]

It's so good. All right, wrapping up this chapter. Chapter 11 ends as Scytel hatches a little plan. He decides that he needs to figure out how to gain access to Duncan Idaho on the other side of that barrier. He sees him working out all the time. And his goal is to figure out a way to set up, quote, an intimate encounter.

[Leo]

Oh, girl. Same. Oh, that sounds great. Sounds wonderful. What a good time.

[Abu]

And what he's really banking on here is the fact that the Tleilaxu implant every ghola with a secret whistling language recall. Bee Jazz used this all the way back in Dune Messiah on the original Duncan Gola. And so his hope is that if some way he can communicate verbally with Duncan, he can activate this secret whistling language, he can use Duncan as a way to access those ship systems and consoles and information that he seeks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's where the chapter ends, with him scheming.

[Leo]

I am so curious if it would work, like, just because, like, we know Duncan's abilities go beyond what even Duncan can account for and perhaps even beyond what the Tleilaxu could account for. And considering the unknowns about Duncan, you know, these visions he's having and everything, I'm like, would that even fucking work? Like, that'd be so.

[Abu]

I'm doubtful that this still works.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Scythill is really banking on something that's like 5,000 year old technology. There's no way.

[Leo]

Yeah, man. What a. What a chapter.

[Abu]

What a chapter. Really interesting. Before we move on from this chapter, I wanted to get your read on this, though I left this chapter with a lot of questions because it seems like a lot of stuff happened in between books. Off page.

[Leo]

There's a missing. There's a missing novella.

[Abu]

Like something happened with the Tleilaxu.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's hinted that Scytale was captured and then in some sort of crazy search and rescue operation, the Bene Gesserit got him out of there. And now he's the last survivor. He has this null entropy tube. But where did that come from? Does every Master have a null entropy tube? I'm left with a lot of lingering questions about how we got here to this point. And as usual, Frank doesn't seem interested in answering a lot of these logistical questions. He just wants me to accept that we're here. But I was left a little bit dissatisfied that we're bringing back sort of like a fan. Like not a fan favorite, but like sort of like a old character from many books ago, or putting him in this position where he's super important. But just trust me, we got here and it's super important. I'm not going to explain myself is kind of the vibe I'm getting from this chapter, which is a bit of a bummer. I wanted a bit more explanation of how Scytale got here.

[Leo]

Yeah. When I first read Heretics into Chapter House, I legitimately thought that Scytale was Frank fucking up and giving Waffle an old name and just having like a senior moment and being like, oops, Oh, I gave him a Tleilax name. I fully forgot that Scytale is in Heretics. He's mentioned as like one of the youngest Masters. And there's this quote about the fleshly continuity of the Council. Scytale had spoken to Muad'dib. So this is the Scytale from Dune Messiah. And as far as any Dune lore goes, this is the only instance of someone who was at one point a face dancer being elevated to the role of Master because he is now a Tleilaxu Master.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

That being said, you're absolutely right. Like, Waff died on Arrakis. And then at some point, I guess, exactly what you're saying, they went and saved the Masters. They went to Tleilax to, like, save a Master. I guess because they knew they needed axolotl tanks, they knew they still had questions they needed. So they went and stopped off and grabbed him. But, like, we didn't get any answers about that. I do think every master has a null entropy tube. I do think that's pretty standard because, again, the Benny Tleilax are always, like, their whole focus is immortality. And the idea of, like, we don't want to be in a position where I'm isolated off by myself, and now all of Playlax is destroyed, and now we can't do anything. I think that makes sense within their mo. But you're right. I mean, I for one, would very much welcome, you know, a little novella explaining them stopping off or them getting this, like, you know, emergency beacon or word that the Honored Matre are en route to Twalax. And, like, and the decision of, like, we have to stop, we have to stop and we have to get someone or something. Like, oh, man. And actually, all of that is also ignoring the fact that there are so many throwaway little lines that if you miss them, you just completely don't have any context. I almost. I think there were some lines earlier in this book that kind of address how he got there, but I'm not even remembering. Like, did they say that they picked him up?

[Abu]

It says in this chapter that he was rescued from the hands of the Honored Matre. But does that mean he was a prisoner? Does that mean they got to him first before the Honor Matre arrive? It's, you know, it's vague enough that I could mean anything. And, like, reading in between the lines, I get the sense that, like, the Honored Matre just wiped out Bandalong, right? Bandalong City wiped out the Tulalag's homeworld. Like that. That planet has been glassed. No one. No one left surviving much the same way they did with Arrakis, Right? Just blow that shit to smithereens. And so what happened with the Tleilaxu? Did they scatter beforehand? Are they all dead? Is he literally the last survivor of an entire race? I just have a lot of questions, and that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to leave a lot of that stuff to interpretation or leaving it open to revisit in a future story. It's just a little jarring to be back with his character. We haven't really known for, like, three or four books now, and suddenly him being so critical to everything without any explanation as to how between his come up as Master and now his position as the last surviving Tleilaxi.

[Leo]

Yeah, again, I think regardless of how many answers I can now provide, I deep sympathy with your experience because of my first time reading these two books and that feeling of like, wait, is this like a blatant fuck up on Frank's part? Because it's just so much information, so dense that like that is I think probably a pretty common experience.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, in our final chapter today we join Lucilla, who's still alive. She is living longer. I think we said respects to a real one. I'm pretty sure she's died like four times now. She is being held captive on Junction, trapped in a cage within a cage, slowly being starved by the great Honored Matre because apparently the Futar is like lean meat. So she's going to be fed to the Futars. Oh no. Now the hunger is whatever, you know, we've all had hunger pangs, but she is beginning to slip into spice withdrawal. And she knows that she's going to have to kill herself soon. Any slight hope of escape is running out. You know, she's worried that Rebecca won't take the Lampadas horde to the Bene Gesserit or she'll fail or she'll fuck up in some way. So she is kind of trying to like figure out if there's any kind of chance of escape. But that light is pretty well faded at this point. And she's like, I probably just need to die soon and I don't want any of my information to fall into the hands of the Honor Matre. So that's what she's kind of at. Nevertheless, the grind never stops. She has a grind mindset. So even though she's within a cage within a cage, she is still at work. She is never stop working, never stop working. She's making content for her, her only. Only memories, only other memories.

[Abu]

What's your five to nine before your nine to five?

[Leo]

There it is. There it is. Now she is mapping the interior of the Honored Matre base on Junction. And it turns out folks, this interior fucking sucks. Everyone gets lost all the time. They have to wear these like so pulse belts to get around. And apparently a lot of Teg's intel that she had been briefed on when they were together is still accurate. Which like that kind of information, absolutely crazy. That kind of information deeply, deeply valuable for any, anyone that she could get it to, if she could. We also learn that the Honored Matre have a fairly straightforward solution to the Voice. She's warned when she's let out of a cage. Hey, by the way, if you use the Voice on me, I actually have a reflex that'll Just kill you outright so you'll be dead. And that's unfortunate, because I want to talk to you, so just don't try that. And sure enough, I mean, we're told, and I think we don't have any reason to doubt. Many Bene Gesserit have fallen prey to this. So some captured Bene Gesserit has tried to use the Voice, has been immediately killed. Before she can react again. The honored Matre move faster than almost anyone can account for, except for perhaps Teg. Now, today, Dama, the Grand Honored Matre has dragged Lucilla out for a little bit of a wine and dine interrogation. Yeah. Where she seems to kind of be like, yeah, I'm gonna feed you to the futar, I'm gonna kill you. But also, I've got questions and maybe I kind of want you to join us. I'm. I'm not. It's kind of vibes based, you know, we're. Yeah, we're just. We're having fun.

[Abu]

Hungry?

[Leo]

Let's get you.

[Abu]

Let's get you something nice.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

Soup. You like soup?

[Leo]

What do you think about soup? Like, beans?

[Abu]

What about unlimited garden sticks?

[Leo]

You like Olive Garden? She was like, this interrogation was sponsored by Olive Garden. Olive Garden. When you're here, you're here. And again, the danger, I think, is when she's bored. If she's like, hey, I'm tired of you. You're not interesting to me at all. That's when you're really probably going to die. Lucilla, at this point, has fully given up the hope of escape. And she is. I. I really got the impression I'm interested in your read on this. I really got the impression she was straight up fucking with Dhamma to just like, can I provoke you into killing me? Like, does that work? Yeah.

[Abu]

Oh, 100%.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Pushing the line, seeing how far she can go constantly.

[Leo]

Also, because it's clear from, like, Rebecca's chapter, I don't know that Lucilla's privy to this information, but, like, from Rebecca's chapter, it's clear that some of Dahmer's violence and brutalness and brutality is performative in order to, like, maintain her control. So it's interesting that she is alone in this room with Dhamma. She is fully alone. So the kind of performative qualities of her rule are gone. So this is really the first time we're seeing the granddaughter Matre with, like, her kind of base diplomacy. And, like, what is she capable of? It's.

[Abu]

Right. And it's actually kind of pathetic. I don't know if you got that, but it's like, oh, Dama, girl. Are you, like, out of your depth right now? This is kind of pathetic. What are you doing?

[Leo]

I don't.

[Abu]

You know, when she doesn't have to perform and have all this bravado in front of her underlings, she is kind of like, on the back foot this entire time. There's lines in this chapter that are like, thomas sensed that she had been outwitted, but couldn't really tell why.

[Leo]

Put a finger on why. Yeah.

[Abu]

Anyway, anyway, you know. And you're like, wow. I found this chapter extremely fascinating, especially coming off the heels of the Rebecca chapter from last episode, where we see two very different kinds of interrogations. And some of the mask of the Honored madre begins to slip here in a way where you realize that they're certainly deadly, but maybe not as invincible as we've been led to believe.

[Leo]

So I think that's absolutely accurate, and I think that that's. So this is a little bit of the sympathy and the kind of, like, sympathetic take on Dama that I think we needed a little bit. Because, like, she is much more of a fleshed out character in this chapter in combination with how she's not doing that bravado. But I also saw what I would say is uncharacteristic planning from her. I think she recognizes as the Grand Autonmatre that they are not in a good place. Right. They are winning the war, but at what? To what end?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And it is almost as if she is saying, we need Bene Gesserit science, whatever the fuck that means. We need Bene Gesserit science in order to have better control and power to achieve their utopia. But I would also say to survive. I think she recognizes that they are not currently on a trajectory that's good. And that's fucking fascinating because we've talked about the Honored Matre as this blind, stupid, violent, impulsive order, and yet here is the head of the order going, we need you. We need you, Lucille. We need Bene Gesserit organization and planning and science. Because we're. And of course, she so such a good reader. And she's not saying that, of course, because she's still. She has this, like, it's an act, and it's not an act. She is like, oh, yeah, I'm your superior. Don't get it fucking twisted. I'm gonna give you a pillow because look how nice I can be. You know, that that is her. But she's still.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

She's still Honored Mantra recognizing. And she's being strategic. I almost thought. I fucking loved the moment where she asks Lucilla, do you find us attractive? And Lucilla's like, I mean, you're kind of. You have a weak chin. I don't know what you're asking me, but from the conversations that we've seen Balanda and o' Draid and Tamerlane having about the Honored Matre, there is something attractive about the way that they live. They use Bene Gesserit skills with no restraint. And we know that Bene gesserit acolytes on Wallach 9 are, like, kind of tempted by hearing about the way that they can use these familiar sexual abilities to just win everything all the time. There is an attraction there. So I see that fundamentally as Dhamma really asking this Bene Gesserit, this Reverend Mother, how attractive do you find the Honored Matre power structure? Right. If she is going to take in, like, Bene Gesserit science and organization to help the Honored Matre become even more powerful, how likely is it we can actually woo you to our side? Is that possible? I'm like, is this actually quite a strategic conversation from Dhamma's perspective and actually quite poignant. And then Lucilla's just fucking missing it, going, I don't know. I wouldn't fuck you, but I have some desperate friends who would get me.

[Abu]

Two drinks in, and then we'll see. Check in with me again.

[Leo]

Three shots, and I'm kind of easy, but okay.

[Abu]

So I had the opposite read on this conversation. I thought Lucilla was very much in control of this conversation, and Dama was the one who was out of her element because she's not here. Posturing and threatening, which is like the Honored Matre mo. That's what we do. We capture people. We burn the libraries. We kill the people. We subjugate them and enslave them. Dama here is like, do you like us, though?

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Which is a deeply uncomfortable thing for her to ask. But I think Dama, like you're saying, is not as blind as her fellow to Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And can recognize that they're headed toward destruction.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so she's exploring maybe with Lucilla, an option of, like, what if work together is too strong a word, but, like, what if you worked with for us or something? Like, what if we didn't just outright destroy it?

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Are we attractive? Is there anything here that would convince you to work for us or something? Because we need your science. And I Don't think she literally means, like, we need your science. Science. I think she means, like, we need your philosophy, your. All the lessons that Bene gesserit have learned, etc. So, to me, this chapter very much read as Lucilla in control and Dama out of her element, actually coming to the negotiating table, something that the honored matre typically don't do. And Lucilla really using it as. As a moment to test how far she can push an honored matre who decides to come to the negotiating table. Like, how far can I actually keep pushing this before you snap and go back to the thing, you know, which is just to kill me?

[Leo]

But I see. I also don't see that Lucilla. I don't see any sign that Lucilla has a sense that she can get out of this alive. Like, she is so in her, like, I'm dying here, like, mentality. If she thought. If she fully recognized she's at the negotiating table right now, asking me to join her. There's. My escape route is like, I get out of here alive, I can figure out something on the. On the back end. We don't get any of that from Lucilla. Lucilla, this whole time is like, why is she feeding me? That's so strange. She's keeping me alive. What's happening here? Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think you're right. I think she's at the negotiating table going, hey, we know brute force doesn't work with you. We've killed enough of you to know, let's try this. Have some food, have a pillow. Let's see if this works. Dama is the one experimenting with an open mind, and Lucilla is like, the only. I need to be careful of your feet because you're going to kill me. You're going to kick me. Any second now. It's like, I don't know. I. That. I think you're right, that Lucilla can clearly talk circles around Dhamma. And I think that's kind of the point. That, like, Dama's got the violence and the outward force, but I think Lucilla's still missing that she actually does have some power in this situation, and that's why she's being given food and a pillow and shit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And she just hasn't even clocked that totally.

[Abu]

I think that's true as well. I think there's so much miscommunication happening in this conversation.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. Neither side is completely clear on what the other is asking. Because this is a weird conversation. I almost get the sense that this has Never happened between the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

To be fair, the naked cat man in the corner who's like, is making it extra weird. Rub me. It's like, later. Later. God.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

That is.

[Abu]

I think this is one of the most interesting chapters we've come across.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Between Heretics and Chapter House so far, this is an extremely interesting chapter because I think you're absolutely correct. Lucilla also doesn't recognize what's happening here, that there's a negotiation taking place.

[Leo]

God.

[Abu]

Lucilla is operating under the impression that she will be killed any second. And in fact, maybe I'll just push her further and further so that she just kills me fast because I'm like.

[Leo]

And then like, takes it out on her pet. And Lucilla's like, instead of her. Because they're at a negotiating table and Lucilla's just like, she's mean to her pet. Come on.

[Abu]

There is so much miscommunication because I think that like, Dama out of her element, actually trying to negotiate something for the first time in her life. And Lucilla not recognizing that. Assuming the Honored Matres can only behave in one way, which is to kill, kill, kill, kill. And it's a lack of open mindedness on Lucilla's part because she only sees the Honored Matres as the enemy. And it's a lack of experience on Domus part because she's never actually in good faith negotiated anything before.

[Leo]

Yeah. Now, it won't surprise you, listener, to know that we're going to talk about this quite a bit in the takeaway. So stay tuned for that. Anyway, the chapter ends again. Just. We need to get Lucilla a medal or a trophy or something because she is still alive. Also, like, well fed. Her spice addiction has been fed. She has a pillow. She's coming up in the world. She's back in the Shiga wire cage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's got some privacy. Sure would be nice to have privacy in her life. And tomorrow the interrogation, the whining and dining is going to continue. Yeah. For the Oscar for should have died a few times by now goes to Lucilla.

[Abu]

We got to get a betting pool going. Does Lucilla survive this whole book? When we were told she was going to die in chapter three, she's the.

[Leo]

Main character of book seven. It's great. Yeah.

[Abu]

All right, folks. Well, that wraps it up for our chapter summaries. Clearly we had a lot of thoughts and feelings on these chapters. I personally, these have been my three favorite chapters in this book. So far, I know we're early. It's, like, bold to say that.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

Well, so far these have been so dense and so interesting. And I think Frank is playing with some storytelling here that we've never seen in the entire Dune saga, which is a crazy thing to say. Six books in.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

And it has been incredibly enjoyable for me. Very exciting stuff.

[Leo]

So fun to revisit, too. Like, again, these three chapters, I think just read like any other chapter. But legitimately digging into them and what we're going to talk about in the takeaway, I'm like, oh, fuck. These might be some, like, of the most poignant chapters so far in the series. And we're in the book that many people consider one of the worst, which.

[Abu]

I'm like, or never get to at all.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. When we're back, we've got a takeaway for you looking at the outward view of the universe. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's dive into our takeaway for today's episode. This is a big one.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And a fun one. I'm excited. So we're going to be taking a look at the outward view of the universe in this book, Chapter House. A big theme, of course, is this juxtaposition between the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Madre. How the two organizations mirror each other, how they compare and how they contrast. And as you heard in the chapter 12 summary a few minutes ago, there's so much to pick apart in this conversation between Lucilla and Dama. And in particular, a big thing that this conversation illuminates is how the Honored Madre view power. What their worldview is on the concept of power, and how that differs from the Bene Gesserit, but also, in some ways, is in line with it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it's pretty clear to us at this point in the story that the Honored Matre are an offshoot of the Bene Gesserit. This has been a theory that's been thrown around ever since. Heretics. But I think we can basically, now, going forward, assume that that is true.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And what makes them different, essentially, is that they are ancient Bene Gesserit reverend Mothers who no longer have access to other memory and so are removed from really what makes the Bene Gesserit what they are. This continuity of purpose, this continuity of memory and history and tradition and dogma. They are removed from that and were removed from that out in the scattering. So with that in mind, let's take a look at this conversation that Lucilla and Damma have and hone in in particular on how these two orders, the Bene Gesserit and the Oner Matre, approach the concepts of power and control.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I think a good place to start this conversation is this quote which is Lucilla thinking about, about Dhamma and kind of what she's learning in this moment.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Quote Honored Matre. Assumptions about control fascinated Lucilla. You controlled your universe. You did not balance with it. You looked outward, never inward. You did not train yourself to sense your own subtle responses. You produced muscles, forces, powers to overcome everything you defined as an obstacle. Were these women blind? End quote.

[Abu]

Such a good quote.

[Leo]

My God, I love it. I mean, we see inherent within this because this is all through Lucilla's lens, right? The Bene Gesserit and Lucilla, they exist on this timeline of millennia that have has been defined by balance, by adaptation, by living in the shadows, by having a distant relationship, a non direct relationship to power. They don't want to be the ones on the throne. They want to rule from the shadows. The ones on the throne get assassinated. Now they wouldn't get assassinated if they used the Voice on everyone and fucking like Gom Jabbard, everyone at the second's notice. But they've never done that. And they haven't done that because of patterns that they've identified over thousands of years of humanity. They cultivate power within every single Bene Gesserit. Has within herself so many abilities that she can bring to basically every situation. The Voice, Prana, Bendu, poison neutralization, all these different things. Meanwhile, the honored Matre turn all of that ability outward. They kick people in the neck like a second notice. They're like, kill you and there you go. And that's, you know, the honor and Matre meet a complex universe and they greet it with a simple solution. Ultimate power and control. Right. Now, an excellent example of this is the Voice, right? A tool that is not as simple as the kind of sorcery of the Brian Herbert books, but is in fact, you identify kind of what people want. You register them, you have an idea of how to motivate them. And then you motivate them and you get them to do what you want them to do through understanding them. It's a very subtle power. The Honor and Matre see this subtle power, they go, yeah, but what if I kick you in the neck as soon as you use it? You know, like that's It. That's the solution. It's a direct and brutal reflexive, insect like attack that cannot be neutralized. Again, Tillowith Waf almost got killed even though he moved like in a blink of an eye.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

It's crazy how fast that kick happens.

[Abu]

And reactionary. Consider the entire Jam Jabbar test that Paul Atreides undergoes.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

An animal would feel pain and reflexively react and pull their hand back. It is a human that chooses to continue suffering the pain in order to power through the other side.

[Leo]

Inherent within that test. Yeah. Is this putting restraint on a podium and saying holding back from that reflex is what defines our value, defines our humanity even.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the honor of Montreal. No, I'm good. I mean, you said you're better, but I fucking kicked you in the neck and you died and your little needle fell to the ground. So.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Guess I win.

[Abu]

Get at me, bro. And now what's interesting. Oh, gosh, I loved this part of the conversation between Lucilla and Dhamma. They start talking about the library on Lampadas. Recall that the honor matres have just taken over Lampadas. And Dhamma is like, yeah, you know, whatever. Fuck that library. We burned it. There's nothing good in there. I checked out some. The covers of some books and like, I didn't see any vampires except for recipes.

[Leo]

They brought fucking beans and garlic recipes. They said, do you like that? We got it from your library. It's the only good stuff we found.

[Abu]

In that pile of stuff we found in there.

[Leo]

They got recipes.

[Abu]

It's the picture books, right? They looked at the picture books and they were like, oh, this looks yummy.

[Leo]

Do you like our food? Our food fucking slaps, doesn't it? Three star Michelin. You know, we'll kick you in the neck if you give us a bad review. But.

[Abu]

But beyond the joking, I do think this is extremely important.

[Leo]

It's huge. Yeah.

[Abu]

It illustrates how the honored Matres understand history and purpose. The things that books are for. Storytelling, history, record keeping, humanity.

[Leo]

Recipes. Right. It's just about. It's what I'm eating today and tomorrow. I don't. That's what books are for. No. Yeah.

[Abu]

The honored Matres dismiss the lessons of the past.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Dhamma even says at one point this. I gasped. Dhamma says, quote, who could possibly need accounts of the Butlerian jihad? End quote.

[Leo]

Brian Herbert fans. Fucking subtlety. And like giant paradigm shifting upheaval of ancient power structures. Whatever. Kick in the neck.

[Abu]

Absolutely insane take from Dhamma. That again shows us how the honor Matres view these things, view history, something that is so sacred to the Bene Gesserit. Right? They have an unbroken line of other memory that goes back for millennia, many millennia. And for them this is all important. They've built their entire organization on the lessons they've learned by being very attuned to human history. Whereas the honored machos are like, cookbooks are bust. I don't care about this Butlerian Jihad thing. Why would I want to read about it? And that I think once again illustrates this inward and outward view for the Bene Gesserit. An inward reflective view on human history shapes who they are as an organization. Whereas the honored Matres have an outward view, a reactionary view. If the Butlerian Jihad was so long ago, it doesn't matter to me anymore, who cares? The recipe that I want to cook so I can have something yummy today and tomorrow matters to me. That is what I'm going to care about.

[Leo]

Yeah. Dama clearly suspects they are driving headlong into their own destruction. And the only way they can get out of that is they don't know. They don't know what the solution is. But the Bene Gesserit have been around a long time, clearly. So maybe they have the secret. Maybe it's their science. Whatever the fuck you know those books contained? Not really. Sure. Seemed kind of boring. Not a lot of pictures, no good recipes. I don't know. Not interested.

[Abu]

Right. Exactly.

[Leo]

Now nevertheless, Dhamma is the head of the honored Mantre. So this order so easy to make a two dimensional cardboard cut out of them. They are very careful caricature like. But she is the head and she is trying to find a solution forward that allows them to have a future and the thing that they need. It's your science we want, she tells Lucilla. And to what? End quote? Better organization for our affairs. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

She's like, we barely even have a calendar. Shared calendar app. No one fucking inputs their events. Everyone's marked as always available. I know that's not. You're in a meeting right now. Don't say that. I'm going to ping you on teams and you're not going to respond for like two days.

[Abu]

My God.

[Leo]

Update your fucking. And you're supposed to have a profile picture. How am I supposed to know from just your two letter initials? Can you tell them a corporate girly? Now I know all these inside jokes. Anyway, hit me.

[Abu]

Point is Microsoft Teams.

[Leo]

Hey, I hate that app. And actually it's better than like Zoom.

[Abu]

That's a hot Take.

[Leo]

I think it's better than Zoom. You don't think Teams is better than Zoom?

[Abu]

No.

[Leo]

Yeah, they need more organization. They have bureaucracy, but bureaucracy that is too single minded and too simple in its approach and is clearly not effective and has no long term plan. The Honor Matre ultimately represent this extreme external force, but they are struggling to keep things organized. And it is clear, although she would never fucking admit it, Dahmer sees the Bene Gesserit as a superior organizing force, despite some obvious like, contradictions in their different ways of approaching things. I also see here that the Honored Matre believe that the Bene Gesserit are fundamentally incapable of their brand of outward violence and force. And they actually may well be. And that's kind of the nature of her pitch to Lucilla. Right. Don't you want to be able to do what we can do? Don't you want to be able to like, don't you want to join us? Aren't we attractive to you? And Lucilla recognizes the destructive path. She's seeing only the destruction and is perhaps blind to maybe some of the ways that the Honored Matre attitude could fix affairs for the Bene Gesserit. Right?

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

The Honored Matre in all of this represent the extreme of raw power, but without balance. It's dangerous but effective. And it's important to know when to use that sort of thing. The Bene Gesserit clearly are facing an existential threat because they don't have this. They don't have something. They don't have this like X factor, right?

[Abu]

Yeah. And you can almost see the Bene Gesserit as the other end of that spectrum. If the Honor Matres are your unbridled, unchecked raw power response as a reaction to everything, the Bene Gesserit are your subtle millennia long plan that's going to take place over 47 steps, all of which have to play out perfectly.

[Leo]

And then gets fucked up at step 46 by someone who fell in love. Oh no. 10,000 years of planning.

[Abu]

Now we need to pivot. Don't worry, we have a 54 step backup plan that'll totally work. It's step five.

[Leo]

A nine year old. Oh, he fucked up our whole plan.

[Abu]

Okay, Plan C. This One is a 68 step plan, definitely will work. It's going to take a few generations. So you, you, you get this other end of the spectrum where like I almost get the sense that Frank is also, also asking us to consider how useful it is to only operate in the shadows. I think something that Leto too Even kind of directly ask. So Drede is, if you have always operated in the shadows, when will it be time for you to come out of the shadows and actually wield power? And so you almost get this sense that there's a push and pull. The Honored Matre have something the Bene Gesserit need, how to wield power. The Bene Gesserit have something the Honored Matre need, how to restrain power and find that middle ground. They're both almost extremes of the spectrum.

[Leo]

I also just had a thought. I think Leto calls out the Bene Gesserit for having lost their noble purpose. Right? They have. Too many times they've pivoted and now it's like, why do you even have the plans? Are you living? Are you actually living as humans? Or are you just looking at your books and your dogma and your red tape? Are you all wrapped up in this inward view with no real present life? And are you just all wrapped up in your memories now? What did Dhamma discard but all of the memories of the past? But they took up the recipes because to eat is to live.

[Abu]

Have sex, eat.

[Leo]

Have sex, eat all the pleasures, kill, Kick people in the neck. The best thing you can do. Yeah, no, but legitimately, like, the idea of like and Scytale calling out the fact that Odrade whistling a tune, humming a melody is like, untypical for Bene Gesserit because they don't like music. What the fuck? You don't like music? Yeah, like there's something really. I don't exactly know how to put it into words, but the idea that the Honored Matre, despite their clear brutality and their clear violence and their almost comical, villainous nature, yeah, they are living. They are in the moment, eating good food, having sex. Like they are. They're. They're alive in a way that the Bene Gesserit deny themselves constantly. And to what end? And if that means that the extension extinction of humanity, then yeah, clearly the many, the Honored Maturi narc coming in here being like the people that we should all emulate. But I think you're right, it's the two ends of spectrums. But I think it's like the opposite ends of like five or six different spectrums of power and manipulation, prioritizing historical information over living in the present and focusing on what tomorrow looks like. Fucking offense versus defense, all of these different things. Keeping yourself youthful and like, sexy looking your whole life versus the Honored Matre, who are all like, withered, retired athletes with like, ripped bods because they're like, yeah, what do I fucking care? I'm not, I don't, I don't need to be supple and beautiful. You know, like every, I feel like every, every Reverend Mother is described as being this like bombshell. 10 out of 10 base 10 body 10, you know, and then like every honor Matri comes in and she's like, like kind of like wrinkly and like, ah, whatever.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But every other chapter they're fucking, they are just. Oh, they're living.

[Abu]

And you have these like having meetings while they're fucking.

[Leo]

If you'll recall, they won't even stop the fucking to have a meeting. It's, it's, it's crazy. But what a difference to the, the Bene Gesserit, who have like quote, unquote mastered sexuality and connection and human intimacy as a tool, but then never do it.

[Abu]

But have separated the human part of it.

[Leo]

But I've separated out the human part of it. It's like, oh, oh, it's so good.

[Abu]

It's so fucking good.

[Leo]

Frank. Frank, the beans and garlic. Frank. Beans and garlic. Herbert.

[Abu]

Okay, we're so off track, off script, folks. Let's try and get this train back on track and continue talking about our takeaway. Although that was absolutely relevant to our takeaway. Yeah, so we were talking about the self destructive nature of the Honored Matres as we're talking about. Right. They're all in about the pleasure without worrying about the consequences. And this is an approach obviously that even as far back as Taraza recognized. As soon as this battle with the Honored Matres started, the Bene Gesserit were like, yo, you're going to drown in all this blood that you're spilling. You're barreling towards your own destruction. And it's even something that comes up in today's reading because in her conversation with Scytale, Odrade sneers at this Honored Matre's thinking. She says, quote, the more powerful will emerge victorious, of course. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, so fucking sarcastic.

[Abu]

As if brute force and power are the only thing that determine a victory. Obviously not, but that is the Honored Matres way of thinking. Now, in this conversation with Scytale, o' Draid also brings up this idea of dieback.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Of a dieback, which is simply put, like this natural collapse of systems that rely solely on force for their survival.

[Leo]

Like predators. Over hunting a prey.

[Abu]

Exactly. Hunting a prey to extinction because of this reliance on force and thus causing themselves to die because they hunt their prey to extinction. That's the example that o' Draid gives, which obviously is how she perceives, or at least how the Bene Gesserit perceive the Honored Matres. I imagine o' Draid is thinking a little beyond that and a little bit more strategically, maybe even outside Bene Gesserit thinking. And this applies to many aspects of the organizations. Right. We talked earlier about how the Bene Gesserit are more subtle in their sexual control, but then cut it off. When it comes to the connection, the human connection part of a sexual encounter, it's merely a tool. Whereas the Honored Matres have extended the pleasure part of it so much that it becomes an overt, brute tool of control via the pleasure versus ignoring and cutting off the pleasure. Two different approaches to effectively the same technique of sexual bondage and sexual exploitation.

[Leo]

Yeah. Even like, Lucilla at one point is like. And achieve orgasm every time. Like, it's a bad thing. It's like, girl, girl, please. Yes. Like, yeah, put a flag in the ground. Have some pleasure. I mean, come on, Lucilla.

[Abu]

My God, if you're young and healthy. Multiple. Why not multiple? What are we doing?

[Leo]

What are you doing? Yeah, meetings. Cancel them. Mark yourself as busy in Microsoft Teams.

[Abu]

This leads us into a. I'll let you hit the ball on this one, dude. I'll just pitch the ball to you. Because this leads us to a connection that you wanted to point out with someone we haven't talked about in quite some time. From very early on in the Dune series.

[Leo]

This dawned as I was working on this script, and I. The gasp. I gasped. The, like, the. The shock. I shaken. So we're talking about the idea of Bene Gesserit abilities turned outward, turned toward the universe and applied to action. What are you doing? How are you affecting the world around you? And how they have perhaps over thousands and thousands of years, they've been too inward. They've been too focused on. Okay, we're going to come up with our plans. Too conservative. Too careful. Too. Again, the mystery of tomorrow is something that Leto preached. Love is something that Leto preached. And Leto as kind of a surrogate for Frank's voice in the universe. These are the important things. The mystery of tomorrow, the mystery of life is not a problem to solve all of that. So as I was kind of thinking about the Honored Matre as this force turned outward and the Bene Gesserit with this force, too inward for their own good and onward also on a track to extinction. Let's not be. Let's not mince words. I was thinking about Hasmir Fenring as you Do. I'm often thinking about Hazmir Fenring. He's my boy. He's great. I love him so much. But I want to point out this moment in the first book where Paul realizes he cannot see Hasmir Fenring. And he recognizes who Hasmir Fenring represents. And the words are so relevant to this. The final book in the Dune series. I was blown away because Hasimir Fenring, he was a potential Kwisatz Haderach. The literal was a. Might have been of the Kwisatz Haderach program. But there was a problem. Now, he was a eunuch. We don't know if that was literal or metaphorical, but this is true. His quote, talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion. End quote. He had these abilities. He was. He had the ability to fucking kill Paul, but he opted not to. He brought. He. He was too focused inward. He was brought inward. And who is Paul? But those same fucking abilities. The same. The same breeding program, the same machinations, the same planning, but with the will and the ability to manifest it. He claimed those uncreased Jordans. He took the throne and he launched a jihad that killed billions. But that was what was necessary to prime Leto for the Golden Path that saved humanity multiple times.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It is an understanding of the tool set and then how to apply it and when to apply it and that you have to sometimes apply it. And the problem is those people like Fenring, who. Or like the Bene Gesserit now after thousands of years, who have everything they need to be, whatever they need to be, but they are too inwardly focused. And the fact that this fucking idea of Hasimir Fenring as an alternative view of what Paul could have been if Paul were too inwardly focused. Coming back for the Bene Gesserit and the honored Matre, I was like, oh, this is so sick. Also, great opportunity to talk about Hasmir Fenring, and I don't have any reason.

[Abu]

To talk about him.

[Leo]

Any reason to talk about him. Yeah. He's been in every script and I've had to cut him every time because he's not actually relevant.

[Abu]

But how do I make him relevant?

[Leo]

But how do I make him relevant?

[Abu]

Yeah, I do think he is relevant here. That's such a great.

[Leo]

So we agree he's like best character in Dune. Sure.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

I'm taking.

[Leo]

That's a win, baby.

[Abu]

My non committal shore.

[Leo]

Yeah, I'll get the sound wave of that tattooed on my body. That's great.

[Abu]

All right, to wrap up our takeaway here to land this ship we've talked a lot about the Honored Matre, the Bene Gesserit, the spectrum that they sit on, how they mirror each other in ways that they are similar, but also how they contrast each other in ways they are dramatically different in their approaches to things like power, control, sexual exploitation, history, etc. I think then to wrap this takeaway up, it seems clear to us by this point in the story that in order to survive, the Bene Gesserit will need to learn balance in order to not be destroyed by a force that projects outward, does nothing but project outward with violence, spilling lube and blood everywhere they go. Yeah, they will have to learn how they themselves should project outward to embrace their humanity, to embrace some of the chaos. Too long they've been committed to dogma and inward thinking, reflective thinking. It has certainly shaped who they are. It has certainly helped them learn some of the guardrails that are necessary. But now those guardrails are becoming more restrictive than they are becoming useful. And the Honored Matres perhaps have something to teach them. And ultimately, I think Leto too knew this. His message to a drade and Daris Balat clearly hints towards some of these ideas. What is the Bene Gesserit 2.0? How will you survive? What is your noble purpose? And we are seeing that play out here in Chapter House as well. This push and pull through conversations like Lucilla's and Damas, where we see these two orders that are related but unrelated, really coming to terms with their own survival and what's necessary for it.

[Leo]

Yeah, I hate to be caught up on beans and garlic, but if you think about, we've seen a few meals with Balanda, Tamerlane and Odrade and what are they doing but like literally scarfing it down without thinking.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

They're thinking about nutrition. They're thinking about what it does, its need.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Because now we're going to get back to work and the Honor Matre are out here collecting recipes from burning libraries. It's fascinating. They're not living. The Bene Gesserit are not living. I also think it's not about violence necessarily. It's like it's the immediate now. It's sexuality, it's action. It's doing something today. Maybe, maybe you don't know what's going to happen on the, on the outside of that, but maybe that's the mystery of tomorrow that you can greet with joy rather than. We have to be sure. We have to have our 78 step plan before we go on the first fucking move. That's what you've been doing forever. And you have to be willing to be a little discordant. Speaking of which, you don't always know, right? You don't always know where the song is going to go. But I loved that quote about the piano, quote, producing perfection from imperfection. And quote, it doesn't have to be the perfect plan before you begin to act. You can just act. You can just play the note, see what happens. That synthesis combining memory, mastery, the outward force, life, presence. Now. Now having connection, humanity, human connection. Yeah, I don't know what that's going to look like. I mean, it seems like Dama's floating the idea of, like, absorbing Bene Gesserit teachings into the Honored Matre in her own kind of violent, twisted way. But, like, yeah, what does that look like? We have a whole rest of the book. We're only into chapter 12 of this relatively long book, but, man, what a fucking incredible mirror to lift to this organization that I think, personally, I had gotten kind of blind to. Every time Betty Jesuit character showed up in God, Emperor of Dune. I was like, ugh, here we go again. They're probably going to do some fucking Benny Chesworth shit. Derogatory, you know, and, like, typical. So all these typicals, you know, And Frank is literally holding up the typicals that he wrote and going, how do these reflect on humanity and on. On us, on. On institutions and on attitudes and power?

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

It's so good. Again, I have a feeling that we're gonna finish this book and it's gonna be one of my favorite books. And that's gonna be some crazy hot take, because everyone shits on this book all the time. People are like, he got so horny in his old. And I'm like, there's so little horniness. There's a lot of sex. There's very little horniness. I think. Yeah, if you want horniness, I've got some book recommendations for you.

[Abu]

Hello?

[Leo]

Hello. Okay, we're gonna take one last break, but don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we have. We have, honestly, two takeaway sized morsels. So don't go anywhere. You're not going to want to miss this. One of them's fucking rad. Both of them are rad. I love them both, but, like, you're not supposed to choose favorite children. One of them is my favorite. We'll be right back.

[Abu]

All right, folks, welcome back. Let's wrap up this episode with two more takeaways. I mean, morsels. Yeah, yeah, let's Start with morsel number one, whistling past the graveyard and turning worms. These two phrases come up in today's reading. We get this exchange between the great honored Matre and Lucilla. Quote, you will lose in the end. You know, Great honored Matre said, whistling past the graveyard. Lucilla said and then had to explain the expression there is a polite show of interest on great honored Matres face. How interesting. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, okay, great.

[Abu]

I also, much like Great Honored Matra needed an explanation of these expressions. And so that's exactly what you did. You dug into some research about these two phrases, whistling past the graveyard and turning worms. So to begin from Dictionary.com, whistling past the graveyard means to pretend to be calm, cheerful and confident in an effort to reassure oneself or others, to deny or ignore a threat or a problem. End quote. Okay, when you think about it, that makes sense. Whistling past the graveyard. Graveyards are scary. Spooky, right?

[Leo]

Skeletons whistling in the dark. Lot of. Lot of idioms. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

So when you really break it down, that makes a lot of sense. It means trying to reassure yourself when you're in a scary situation. You went so far as to try and track down the history of this idiom. Where did it come from? What's the origin? And that's a tough one to track for this one in particular. But according to grammarist.com this idiom may go as far back as 1743 as an origin point and perhaps references a Scottish poet named Robert Blair. And Grammarist breaks down basically in their analysis that it gained popularity as an American idiom somewhere in the 1920s. And so based on that timeline, yeah, this sort of language would have made its way to the west, would have made its way to America and ultimately Frank's ears. And he would have heard some version of the phrase whistling past the graveyard and thus included it in the story. Right now, bringing it back to Dune, we don't know how Lucilla explains this idiom to Great Honored Matre. You know, we don't get a Dictionary.com breakdown from Lucilla. Yeah, but Dama's comment is in response is interesting quote, any of my aides would have killed you immediately for saying that. End quote.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And that reaction is interesting because it seems like Lucilla is implying that the honored Matre are pretending to be confident. They're reassuring themselves while walking through a graveyard, ignoring a threat and just pretending to puff up their chests and be fine.

[Leo]

Right. Or like ignoring the short sightedness of their strategies, like, you're going to kill yourselves. And she's like, we're going to end. We're going to win in the end. You're like, you're whistling past the graveyard.

[Abu]

The graveyard's in sight, girl. And I hear some whistling. And to wrap up here and to touch on our final idiom, the worm turns. Lucilla actually illustrates her point further by highlighting the futars. She explains how the futars are indicative of the very thing the honored matre are ignoring in all their bravado. Right. The futars once hunted the honored matre, but now we see that table has been turned. The honored matre keep futars as pets. Dhamma even says we hunt them for pleasure now.

[Leo]

Great. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Lucilla warns, quote, worms often turn. End quote. And when you look up that definition in Merriam Webster, it explains how this idiom is essentially about how someone who's been weak or unlucky or unsuccessful can quickly come back from behind and end up on top, can flip the table on their status quo, just like the honored matres did with the futars. The thing that once hunted them are now their pets. And now look at the situation. The Bene Gesserit being hunted by an overwhelming force like the honored madre. Lucilla here effectively teasing and hinting at the fact that you could find yourself as our pets one day, we could turn the tables on you as well, just like you did with the food tars.

[Leo]

What a good fucking use. Also of an idiom that's so.

[Abu]

Yeah. Get the fuck out of here.

[Leo]

The worm often turns and domino's. Like, you mean like the big worms? You mean like the ones who destroyed on Arrakis? Oh, my God. So good.

[Abu]

Yeah. So there you go, folks. Two new idioms that you may not have heard of before defined for us thanks to Frank Herbert's use here in Dune.

[Leo]

So in every email we get from you, I want to hear Gadarene swine. I want to hear the worms turning. And I want to hear whistling past the graveyard.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Now you know how to use these idioms. We're bringing them back. We're bringing them back. All right. Our second morsel today, legitimately could be a 45 minute video essay and might be one day, who knows? We've been talking about the future of Gom Jabbar. Who's to say what we do next? Fall down. Seven. Get up. Eight. Good. Good. Instructions, anime motivational speech.

[Abu]

Nani, nani, Nani Nani.

[Leo]

Force Ultra. Even further beyond, Lucilla is battling her inner voices. When one of them drops the saying of the summer quote that silenced them except for one faint protest. Remember, we are the ancient doll. Seven times down, eight times up. It came with a rocking image of a small red doll, grinning Buddha face and hands clasped over its fat belly. End quote. So naturally that fucking slaps. That's great. Love that we looked into it and God damn, there's so much here that I kind of knew, but definitely didn't. And I'm so excited to share it with you.

[Abu]

I didn't know most of this.

[Leo]

And Frank, he's wearing his weeboo, his weeb hat proudly because he way going into Japanese iconography. So the first line, we are the ancient doll. Seven times down, eight times up. In Japanese there's this phrase, nara korobi yaoki, meaning to fall seven times, but to stand up or to get up eight times, representing a Japanese spirit of perseverance, right? You see this in every fucking Shonen anime ever made. And the phrase is often paired with Daruma dolls. And Daruma dolls are those like red round dolls that you'll see at shrines sometimes. You've definitely seen them. I can say confidently that almost every listener has seen a Daruma doll. Now, the ancient doll is. The Daruma doll are those round red dolls. These are small Japanese traditional dolls and some of whom are made with a rounded base so that if you tip them over, they'll sort of correct themselves. And that's the idea. You knock them over, they kind of bounce back up, right? So that's the source of the ancient doll and the saying, we're knocked down. 7. Get back up the next line. A rocking image of a small red doll, grinning Buddha face and hands clasped over its fat belly. End quote. So color me interested. Raised Buddhist. Love, love, a mention of Buddha all in it. What I didn't know. Daruma dolls, these little red round dolls that I've seen my whole fucking life are modeled after the monk and Buddha, Bodhidharma. And Bodhidharma is a semi legendary monk who is credited with bringing Zen Buddhism to China, which is called Chan Buddhism in China. And there is a pretty well known legend I had. I had actually known this legend because I was researching Zen Buddhism in high school. I was raised Vajrayana Buddhist, but I kind of liked Zen Buddhism and the way that it broke down caste systems. It doesn't matter. That's not why we're here. Point is, this guy's fucking metal. Like at one point he fell asleep, so he cut off his eyelids so he would never fall asleep again. He's a Fucking insanely metal character in folklore and mythology. But anyway, he meditated facing a rock wall for so long that his legs atrophied off.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Hence why Daruma dolls don't have legs. I didn. Daruma dolls were based on this guy. That's crazy. And I thought this was fucking fascinating. Bodhidharma is often described to and referred to as a blue eyed barbarian because in China and in Japan, he was considered an outsider, a foreigner who is described as being like, Indian, South Indian, but having blue eyes and representing this very different outside perspective. The outsider, the foreigner to China and Japan.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And by the way, blue eyes on an outsider who comes in spreading knowledge. And what I was like, that's resonant with a lot of Dune's themes. That feels very resonant. So anyway, back to. Back to Dune, all of this, right? This connection the. The Bene Gesserit having in their other memories this connection to an ancient Zen Buddhist character and the Bene Gesserit themselves as this order who gets knocked down time and time again. We've talked about quite a few of those times on today's episode. Especially that this wisdom is coming from Lucilla's inner voices. She may be caged and at the mercy of Dhamma, but isn't that like a Daruma doll knocked over, only to soon right itself again? I loved this. I thought this was so cool. There was so much imagery here. And all of this comes down to this incredibly throwaway line that's just baked with like. Again, could literally be a 30 or 40 minute video essay. Probably.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But will Lucilla, the character we keep saying rest in peace to a real one? Never mind. She's still alive. Will she write herself like a little round Daruma dollar? Well, we'll have to keep reading and find out, folks.

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm not a betting man, but if I were to put some money.

[Leo]

Down, she gonna go plus ultra. She's gonna go even further. Yeah, she's.

[Abu]

I think Lucilla's gonna get knocked down seven times and back up eight.

[Leo]

You know, we get knocked down and we get back up again. It's a song by the tub thumpers. Tub thumping. I don't know. Something that's a song about Buddhism, I'm pretty sure.

[Abu]

Great research on those morsels, Leo. Super fascinating stuff. Wow, that does it for this dense. This dense set of chapters. We have some homework for you. There's more chapters left in this book. There's more reading to be done. Yeah, do it for the next book club episode. Make sure, dear listener, that you have read chapters 13 through 15 in the ACE paperback copy of the book. But if your copy is different from ours, read up through the chapter that ends on this sentence quote. I can think like at least one honored matre. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, sure. So can I. I'm hungry for beans and garlic. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we have some ways to support us and support what we do. And of course, the two best ways to support Gom Jabbar is one, to become a patron over at Patreon.com, as little as $5 a month gets you a bunch of sweet perks and really means the world to us, makes what we do possible. And of course, we also have a merch store. All of those links are in the show notes. Every little amount that you can support us makes literally a world of difference.

[Abu]

It does indeed. And of course, we love to hear from you, especially during these book club runs. So email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts, Send us your interpretations on these readings. Send us any questions you have. Of course, we sprinkle in mailbag episodes throughout these book club runs. And the earlier you get your question in, the higher chance that we'll have time to research and answer it in those episodes. So send all of that to gomjabarpodcastmail.com we love to hear from you.

[Leo]

And in fact, we have. This is part four, episode four, episode five, normal episode. Episode six is a mailbag episode. So definitely send us your questions, send us your observations, your thoughts, anything. We are going to be starting that process of collecting and gathering those questions very soon. So if you have any of those thoughts, please, please, please, please send them to us. We would love to get your thoughts and questions into the episode so we can talk about it and have a good time.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Yeah. And send us your favorite recipes, because I think I've been too buried in this book series from the 80s and honestly could use some new recipes probably, you know. Yeah, you have a killer. I didn't know about bechamel sauce for a long time, and I recently learned that bechamel sauce mixed in with, like, with lasagna slaps so goddamn hard. I get. I understand Garfield now. Like, Garfield seemed kind of, like, too hot on it, but now that I've had lasagna with bechamel. Oh, oh, I get it.

[Abu]

I don't think I've ever had it.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's.

[Abu]

I don't think.

[Leo]

Yeah, you'll have. You you. You have to come over sometime. We'll. We'll cook you. We'll cook some. Some lasagna.

[Abu]

Okay?

[Leo]

Perfect. Perfect.

[Abu]

As long as we're burning a library down in the process. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lower Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. And of course, we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening.

[Leo]

And.

[Abu]

And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Pack.