Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 5)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club - Chapterhouse Dune (Part 5)

Podcast by Lore Party Media
Hosts: Abu & Leo
Episode Date: January 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode continues Gom Jabbar's deep-dive book club journey through "Chapterhouse: Dune," the final installment in Frank Herbert’s legendary series. Hosts Abu and Leo dissect three key chapters, analyze the striking contrasts between Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres, and launch into a nuanced discussion of education—both in Dune and our world. As always, the tone is playful yet insightful, mixing levity (“random bay leaf Foley”) with substantive, critical analysis. The episode is capped with the fan-favorite “Spice Morsels,” touching on Dune’s wooden beams and bird-worldbuilding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Embracing Randomness and Evolution in Patterns

Timestamps: [00:00] – [04:43]

• Opening Banter:

  • Leo jokes about introducing randomness into the podcast, referencing Odrade's philosophy of resisting stagnation (with "random bay leaf Foley" for good measure).
    • “No absolute patterns that others could find and use against them. Some more randomness. Well, that’s pretty good. I have a bay leaf here. Here's some random bay leaf Foley.” – Leo [00:00]

• Foreshadowing Themes:

  • Abu relates this to the creative necessity for change: "Stagnation is the death of any creative project, so I’m with Odrade on this.” [00:53]
  • Sets up the larger Dune theme of breaking or evolving the patterns that define powerful institutions.

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2. Chapter Summaries

Chapter 13: Odrade Among the Acolytes

Timestamps: [05:15] – [12:46]

• Odrade spends meal-time with Bene Gesserit acolytes, preferring the less controlled and more revealing company of novices rather than seasoned Reverend Mothers:
  • "Reverend Mothers, fully awakened, don’t show shit... acolytes... panic when the Mother Superior enters the room.” – Leo [05:36]
• Odrade is preoccupied with Bene Gesserit habits—especially as they relate to food culture—contrasting the efficiency but lack of joy in Bene Gesserit meals with the indulgent savoring exemplified by Honored Matres.
• Odrade meets acolyte Aloana Stregi and, in a moment thick with Bene Gesserit mystique, assigns her to literally "be a horse" for a mysterious child.
  • “How would you like to be a horse?” – Leo [11:00]
• The act is framed as the opening move in a larger Bene Gesserit plan.

Chapter 14: Murbella’s Crisis and Conversion

Timestamps: [12:46] – [17:38]

• Murbella is shown stressing herself to collapse with Bene Gesserit training assignments, burning out in the process.
  • “She’s pushed herself too far past her own limit. Luckily, Duncan is there.” – Abu [14:14]
• Odrade visits her, and Murbella makes a pivotal decision:
  • Quote: “I’ve decided I want to be like you.” – Murbella [15:22]
• Odrade’s message is nurturing: “Glad you want to be like me, but take care of yourself. Don’t burn out.”
  • The contrast between Bene Gesserit nurturing and Honored Matre brutality is spotlighted: “What a microcosm of difference... Dama would be like, you’re weak…Odrade is like, take care of yourself, you’re important.” – Leo [15:49]

Powerful Self-Assessment & Change:

• Murbella reflects on the meaning of commitment, realizing the truth and weight of her oath only now
  • “She realized that she had not been physically or emotionally prepared for this moment. Tears flowed down her cheeks.” [17:31]

Chapter: Odrade at Central & Real Boats Rock

Timestamps: [17:38] – [28:12]

• Odrade inspects Central, looking for signs of “too much smoothness”—a hallmark of hidden problems.
  • Quote: “Show me a completely smooth operation, and I’ll show you someone who’s covering mistakes. Real Boats Rock.” – [17:58]
• Leo and Abu love this as a guiding life and organizational principle: “Real Boats Rock is such a good tattoo idea!” – Leo [18:15]
• Odrade, Balanda, and Tamerlane debate risk, pattern, and the dangers of Bene Gesserit conservatism as the universe expands infinitely.
  • Quote: “Ask what infinity might produce. The only possible answer was anything.” – [19:53]
• The impending plan: Duncan will restore young Teg’s memories, potentially creating a new Bashar for the Bene Gesserit’s desperate struggle with the Honored Matres.
• Odrade keeps much of her plan secret, noting the necessity of breaking Bene Gesserit typicals.

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3. Thematic Deep Dive: Education in Dune and Our World

Timestamps: [28:12] – [58:39]

Comparing Bene Gesserit and Honored Matre Education

• Murbella, as an outsider, is the reader’s lens:
  • “I regurgitated on demand. That was called education.” – Murbella [29:00]
• Abu and Leo agree: “The worst teachers I’ve had were just regurgitation—no real synthesis or engagement.”
• Odrade/Frank Herbert critique bureaucratic, suppressive education:
  • Quote: “Educational bureaucracies dull a child’s questing sensitivity. The young must be damped down. Never let them know how good they can be. That brings change.” – [31:26]

Frank Herbert’s Real-World Views

• The hosts tie the text to Frank Herbert’s 1981 Mother Earth News interview, highlighting his criticisms of top-down, conformity-focused systems and preference for family-led, individualized learning.
  • “The teaching of our young ought to be about equally divided between the family…and professionals… Today, though, the professional education establishment assumes that the family doesn’t know what its own members need… The result is a classic failure, an institutionalized system that does more harm than good.” – Frank Herbert, cited by Abu [35:57]
• They also bring in Sir Ken Robinson’s 2006 TED talk to support the value of nurturing creativity:
  • “Creativity now is as important in education as literacy, and we should treat it with the same status.” [37:22]

Host Reflections & Critique

• Both hosts share personal experiences with creative schooling and discuss national trends: rising IQs, but declining creativity scores, possibly due to test-driven curricula.
• Abu notes the criticism of teachers as “universal suppressors” of talent is overblown and unsupported by data.
  • “There is no data, there is no research that suggests teachers universally suppress gifted students…in fact, many teachers actively support their most creative learners—especially in better-resourced schools.” [51:51]
• Larger point: Teachers fail when the system fails. Schools like the Bene Gesserit’s are elitist and hand-tailor experiences to a select few, which can’t be generalized.

Notable Quotes

• “Real Boats Rock.” – [17:58]
• “Stagnation is the death of any creative project, so I’m with Odrade on this.” – Abu [00:53]
• “Glad you want to be like me, but take care of yourself. Don’t burn out.” – [15:49]
• “Educational bureaucracies dull a child’s questing sensitivity. The young must be damped down. Never let them know how good they can be. That brings change.” – Odrade [31:16]

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4. Spice Morsels: Dune’s Hidden Lore and Real Science

Timestamps: [60:11] – [73:52]

Morsel 1: GMO Wooden Beams

• The genetically tailored oaks in Chapterhouse echo real-world structures like Japan’s Horyuji temple, which has been standing for 1,300+ years due to cypress wood’s durability.
• Dune’s worldbuilding is thus both fantastical and grounded in plausible science, especially considering a million-year human future.

Morsel 2: Orioles and Tanagers

• Frank names “orioles” and “tanagers”—real birds known for bright color and fruit diets—as inhabitants of the elms on Chapterhouse.
• Leo links their fruit-eating habits to the Bene Gesserit’s gardens and notes that bringing birds to each planet is yet another way the order replicates its comforting patterns—the very thing Odrade is now questioning as a source of stagnation.
• Bird facts abound, and listeners are invited to share their own favorite avians.
• Lighthearted banter includes recurring jokes about allaboutbirds.org as a potential sponsor.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | Summary | |-------------------------|--------------|----------------------------------------| | Banter/Opener | 00:00–05:15 | About randomness & anti-stagnation | | Chapter 13 Discussion | 05:15–12:46 | Odrade, food metaphors, plan begins | | Chapter 14 Discussion | 12:46–17:38 | Murbella pushes to burnout; converts | | Real Boats Rock | 17:38–28:12 | Odrade’s inspection & risky planning | | Thematic Takeaway | 28:12–58:39 | Education in Dune & real life | | Spice Morsels | 60:11–73:52 | Wood science, bird facts | | Closing/Homework | 73:52–end | Next episode & questions solicitation |

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Real Boats Rock.”

  • Leo: “Such a good tattoo idea!” [18:15]

• “Glad you want to be like me, but take care of yourself. Don’t burn out.”

  • Odrade, after Murbella’s commitment to become Bene Gesserit [15:49]

• On Bene Gesserit typicals:

  • “How much are these colorful, pleasant, beautiful little birds…part of this broader pattern?” – Leo [72:18]

• On Education:

  • “Teachers fail when the system fails, not the other way around.” – Abu [56:23]

• Spice morsels closing banter:

  • “Do you have a favorite bird?” – Leo [72:41]
  • (Bandwagoning for the hooded warbler)
  • “Incredible. What a great takeaway. Great job on that research. Love some bird facts.” – Abu [73:52]

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Final Thoughts

Abu and Leo deliver their trademark mix of insight and levity, expertly connecting Dune’s hyper-elite secret societies to everyday conversations about creativity, institutional inertia, and what makes learning truly meaningful. The episode’s pop culture references, anecdotes, and tangential flights (bird facts!) all serve to deepen the listener’s connection, even as the subject matter grows complex. Ultimately, the message is clear: whether in the sand-strewn halls of Chapterhouse or a public classroom, real change requires risk, self-knowledge, and, yes, sometimes a bit of randomness.

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Homework for Next Episode

• Submit your questions! Upcoming episode will be a mailbag—Dune or non-Dune questions are welcome.
• For the book club, read chapters 16, 17, and 18 (or up to: "the horde of Lampadas venting emotions it had confined for many generations").

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Send your thoughts, Dune insights, and favorite birds to [e-mail] or via Discord/Twitter.

Transcript

[Leo]

By the time they became patrons, all of them had some sensitivity to the podcast and tended to listen to it without question. Thereafter, there lay the danger. O'Drade pressed for constant improvements, even tiny ones, to introduce change into their episodes. Randomness. There's some. No absolute patterns that others could find and use against them. Some more randomness. Well, that's pretty good. I have a bay leaf here. Here's some random bay leaf Foley.

[Abu]

That's right, folks. Y' all are never going to find patterns in this podcast.

[Leo]

Now I have bay leaf residue all over my fingers. God, you are.

[Abu]

Look, stagnation is the death of any creative project, so I'm with Odrade on this. Welcome to Gamchabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. For from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we're continuing our journey through Chapter House Dune, the final book in the Dune saga.

[Leo]

Oh, I love it.

[Abu]

By Frank Herbert himself.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. Love it so much. What a good book. What an insanely good book.

[Abu]

It truly is. Okay, well, we're here to talk about three chapters in particular. And so before we dive in, let's take care of some housekeeping and make Shout Out Mapes proud. Beginning, of course, with our spoiler warning, folks. Yeah, as always with these book club episodes, there will be no spoilers today beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far on the show. So as long as you're caught up and as long as you've done the reading, you are good to listen today.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as always, a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Redinger, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohinram, and. And Roger Young.

[Guest or Sponsor Voice]

Wow.

[Leo]

I keep suggesting to Abu that we rename all the streets on Planet Gom Jabbar after you. And then Abu is like, they're not dead yet. Why are we doing that?

[Abu]

They are alive. They're actually. They are supporting patrons right now.

[Leo]

It's as if I can still hear their voices. Abu.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's tough to. Can you in memoriam something for someone who's still alive and paying you and supporting your podcast. Yeah, but it's tough, you know, that's my only pushback. That's my only critique.

[Leo]

Yeah, I keep putting up black and white photos of, like, never forget this person. And he's like, they're still alive. And I'm like, I know. I just want you to remember Daniel is still alive.

[Abu]

He just messaged me in the discard.

[Leo]

What are we doing? Don't forget him. That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

[Abu]

We'll name a street after him once he's dead.

[Leo]

Oh, true.

[Abu]

Wow. That was a morbid way of saying thank you and expressing our gratitude. But we truly do mean it from the bottom of our hearts, of course, that thank you and that gratitude extends to all of our patrons at every level who help make this show possible. Some way, somehow, we'll figure out a way to name a street after you all as well.

[Leo]

Indeed. And listen, if you are out there experiencing some subscription fatigue and you only have it in yet to do a one time donation, we do have a link for that in the episode description. That is another way to get a street named after you and to get some black and white posters of your face posted around town square.

[Abu]

In memoriam. All right, I was keeping out of the way. Let's talk about today's episode. You all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We will begin by summarizing the three chapters assigned for today's reading. Then we're going to dive deep into a thematic takeaway. Today's is particularly interesting to me because I'm quite passionate about it. And then finally, we will be wrapping up by chomping down on a couple of very yummy spice morsels. So before we get into all of that, folks, take a break, prepare yourselves. We'll be right back after a quick break to dive into these chapters. We'll see you in a minute.

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you're ready for some new chapters in Dune Chapter, House of Dune, whatever the book is called. Let's start our discussion with our first assigned chapter today. And that is chapter 13. Our first chapter today joins Odrade the Goat the goat herself.

[Abu]

Truly.

[Leo]

Who has made a habit of hanging out with Bene Gesserit acolytes during mealtime? Why, you might ask? Well, I might tell you it's because their poker faces suck, Benny. Reverend Mothers fully awakened, Reverend Mother. They don't show shit. They don't, they don't tell you anything. They're all playing 5D chess. The acolytes, they like, panic when the Reverend Mother Superior enters the room. They, they have no chill. And so she's able to get a better like feel of the pulse of Chapter House by hanging out with these less trained, less careful members of the Bene Gesserit order. So, right as usual, this is a pattern in this book. We are spending most of the chapter in Odrade's thoughts, reflecting as she's kind of thinking about the desert that's growing and this image, this nightmare image of being on the tightrope with being chased by an axe wielding maniac, probably dressed in sexy leotards and the axes are a metaphor for feet. You know, that's the, that's the vibe. Now, during her swig pork meal.

[Abu]

Yum.

[Leo]

Sweetest pork this side of heaven, she decides it's time to visit Shiana in the desert. And she drops some hints that there's a test that Shiana has to pass. Quote, Shiona must have no forewarning. I must be sure she is the one we need. There were questions for Shiana to answer. End quote. Shiana, what's seven times 56? Quickly, wait. No forewarning.

[Abu]

Don't think about it.

[Leo]

And if she gets it wrong? Oh, she's not the one, right.

[Abu]

I hate a pop quiz.

[Leo]

Hate a pop quiz. But o' Draid loves pop quizzes. It's one of her favorite things, unfortunately. Unfortunately. Now also, she thinks back on a chat that she had with Merbella. And I really get the impression that pop quizzes included, she's always challenging and testing and pushing and teaching the young Honored Matre that they have captive for the last 10 years.

[Abu]

Absolutely. And it's because Mirbella's important. At some point in these chapters today I recall an Odrade thought where she thinks about how important Murbella is. Everything hinges on Merbella playing her part in Odrade's schemes. So makes sense that she's constantly over there in the no ship, constantly challenging and pushing this Honor Matre.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, I also wanted to say quickly, in our takeaway last episode, we talked about the Honored Matre as kind of an aside during that takeaway conversation, we talked about food. I was talking about the garlic beans that the honored matera, like the recip that they salvaged from the library. With that in mind, I was looking at this script and it seems really poignant that Odrade is commenting on the slig pork in this section. She talks about how the chefs, the cooks, clearly adjusted her recipe, adjusted her meal for her nutritional needs. Someone requested, hey, what has she eaten today? Let me make sure this is perfect for her. So they've tuned it to exactly the nutritional needs that she has, but it's a little bit overcooked. And what a fucking incredible condensation of Bene Gesserit life.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That you have this, like, optimized to the nth degree, but it misses the mark of being an enjoyable, delicious meal. And I would just say on record, I would bet fucking Solaris, that Dama head Honored matre, I bet she takes her slig pork extra rare with like the perfect sauce and just like a perfectly paired wine that's just so, like, exactly what you want.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

She enjoys her meals, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And I would not challenge you on that bet. I would say. I agree.

[Leo]

Good. Sweet.

[Abu]

Yeah. I had the same exact thought about the food and the fact that food comes up in back to back chapters. The last chapter, and then now today's chapter feels very intentional on Frank's part. Feels like more commentary on the differences between the honored Madre and the Bene Gesserit as we talked about in our last takeaway. So I'm glad you called that out.

[Leo]

So eventually the acolyte next to Odrade kind of, Hey. And we are introduced to Aloana Stregi. And she asks Odrade, she's like, hey, Reverend Mother Superior, what up? It's your girl, Streggy. I actually have a question. I submitted a report and haven't gotten a response.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Need to know because I know it's important to you because it has to do with the orchards, which I know you're a fan of. Now, during this brief conversation, Odrade decides this person's great. Streggy. Great 10 out of 10. Love her. She's wonderful. And she, she likes her so much, in fact, that she gives her a new job assignment. She's like, hey, yeah, whatever you're doing. Oh, you're like handling the maps or something. Whatever. You have a new job assignment actually. How would you like to be a horse? Streggy is like, what the fuck is happening right now? And actually. And o' draid clarifies it's not just that you're going to be a horse. Okay? I want you to carry a young child on your shoulders to move him more rapidly than his short legs will carry him. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

And that, of course, raises a million and a half questions. So many questions, none of which are addressed. And of course, Streggy being a good Bene Gesserit acolyte's like, all right, bet I'll be a horse. Sure. Whatever you need. I'll be the best goddamn horse you've ever like. Clop, clop, I'm here for you. You know, just great. And then the conversation ends. They're like, all right, sweet. Report to the stables for horse training, I guess. Now, back in her office alone. Oh, Jade actually reflects on that moment as being way bigger than any of us knew it was. Yeah. This is indicative of the beginning of a plan and the actual like, this is the first domino being knocked over in the long Rube Goldberg machine. That is whatever she's got cooking. Whatever plan she's got cooking.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Her plans within plans within plans are suddenly moving forward, perhaps carried on the shoulders of Streggy the. The. The acolyte who dare interrupt her mealtime. Right now, of course, what exactly these plans within plans are, we have no idea. But we do get a hint from her thoughts. Quote, now Duncan must restore our Bashar's memories. A delicate assignment.

[Abu]

Wow. More on that in just another chapter.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But for now, let's move on to chapter 14. This next one is a short one. We join Marbella in the no Ship practice room where she is doing some exercises and really pushing herself to the limit. Through her thoughts, we learned that Mirbella is really fucking stressed right now. Actually, she's trying to burn off some stress and anxiety.

[Leo]

She's been doom scrolling on TikTok. I know the feeling.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. She doesn't have access to TikTok, remember? Her own worse have those parental controls.

[Leo]

On the computer, they can't go guided access TikTok. Oh, fuck. Try to guess the passcode.

[Abu]

0, 00, 00, 0.

[Leo]

Typical Benny Desert password. Yeah.

[Abu]

Marbella. Through her thoughts, we learned that she just had a recent chat with a one of her typical chats with o' Draid that she's having a lot of these days. And this one has really shaken her. The Bene Gesserit lessons that she's been undergoing and the lessons, the one on ones she's been having with Odrade are clearly having an effect on this young honored madre. And she is very much so sliding into the Bene Gesserit's open arms.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And by the end of this chapter, as we all know, she is fully committed to becoming a Bene Gesserit. It's a really jam packed chapter, despite how short it is. And actually we're going to unpack some more of these ideas later in our takeaway. So for now I'm going to breeze through the summary.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Quickly. We'll revisit this chapter in a little bit later in the episode. So after failing to shake this mood that she's in, Mirbella suddenly collapses. She has pushed herself too far past her own limit. Luckily, Duncan is there. He enters the room and calls out for help. And because of the kamas, because they're constantly being watched. Within minutes, a suit doctor arrives and the Suk doctor's diagnosis is one that I'm quite familiar with and I'm sure you are too, Leo. Mirbella is burnt out. Oh, girl, she's pushing herself too far.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

She needs to ease it back.

[Leo]

Take.

[Abu]

Take her foot off the gas pedal. She has gone beyond her limits, trying to apply herself to these Bene Gesserit assignments and coursework that she's been given by Odrade and her other proctors.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Odrade, later in the chapter visits her in the hospital as she is resting up. And this is where Mirbella, you know, makes her big declaration. Quote, I've decided I want to be like you. End quote. I want to be a Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

She is converted insane. I also, I love Odrade's like lighthearted response where she's like, oh, splendid. Just so you know, I've never fucking burnt myself out to the point of killing myself. So if you want to be like me, hey, fucking chill, take a nap, my girl.

[Abu]

Don't do that again.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Exactly, exactly. I did think that was powerful, you know, it's like, you want to be like me. You look up to someone like me. Don't make the mistake you just made.

[Leo]

Again, take care of yourself.

[Abu]

I wouldn't do that.

[Leo]

What a care. What a good message too, just from someone like, hey, cool, yeah, yeah, no, like, but take care of yourself. And also something for sure that continues to drive home how different, as many as we are talking this whole book about how similar the Bene Gesserit are to the Honor Matre. But like, what a microcosm of difference there. Where I'm sure Dhamma would be like, you're weak. Don't be weak. You know, whatever. You collapse, you collapse. Piece of shit. You know? Meanwhile, oh, Jade is like, hey, hey, glad you're. Glad you're in good spirits, but take care of yourself because you know you're important.

[Abu]

Definitely push yourself to your own limit. Don't measure yourself up against anyone else's limits.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

Learn your own, push your own, go past your own.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That has nothing to do with anyone else. I did think that was a really powerful underlying message in this true chapter.

[Leo]

Love it. Yeah.

[Abu]

So to wrap up the chapter, we are back in rebellious thoughts. She's in this hospital bed. Odrade has left, and she is thinking back on this oath that she clearly took, like, in between books at some point before the Bene Gesserit proctors. And she recalls that at the time, she was being cynical. Right. Raise your right hand. I swear.

[Leo]

All enemies domestic.

[Abu]

The ceremony meant nothing to her at the time because she was still an honored madre. But now that she has committed to this course, committed herself to the Bene Gesserit, and been converted, she finds new meaning thinking back on the words she spoke during that oath ceremony. And the chapter ends on this really beautiful note. This is the final sentence in the chapter. She realized that she had not been physically or emotionally prepared for this moment. Tears flowed down her cheeks.

[Leo]

Beautiful. Well, in our final chapter today we join Odrade. It's a very Bene Gesserit heavy book, this, as she conducts an inspection of Central, and she's looking for things that are running too smoothly. And I want to share this full quote, because I think it's probably one of the best quotes in Dune. So much better than Fear Is the Mind Killer.

[Abu]

This is like a personal top three for me in the whole Dune saga.

[Leo]

Foley. Agreed. Quote, show me a completely smooth operation, and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real Boats Rock. End quote.

[Abu]

Oh, my God, Buck.

[Leo]

Dude, Real Boats Rock is such a good tattoo idea.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

So much better than Fierce Mind Killer. What are we doing? What are we collectively doing, folks? Oh, so good. This quote, Real Boats Rock, I think just about makes the whole book worthwhile because it's such a good concept. The idea that you like. There's always gonna be things that go awry, always guaranteed. So the question is, if something appears spotless, it's because someone is covering up those little mistakes and hiccups. So she's looking for those little moments. Also love the ocean metaphor. Right, Sea child.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

There's a lot of water imagery in Odraith's inner world. And the idea that she's going, hey, it's the movement of the water. It's the. It's the unpredictability of the ebb and flow of time and. And chance. It's gonna lead to little things here and there, and that's what you need to be aware of. That's just gonna happen. You know, it's so good. Now, Balanda and Tammalaine have joined Odrade on this little walk, and she's kind of going, oh, they're teaming up on me a little bit because they're. They're worried about my tricky plans and the things I'm trying. And she also wonders, do they suspect what I'm up to? Do they suspect my actual plan that, of course, I'm not really telling anyone about? And the conversation turns philosophical as they begin to discuss the scattering and the possibilities that lie in this endless universe that they are now exploring and sending Reverend Mothers and Bene Gesserit out into, quote, ask what infinity might produce. And the only possible answer was anything, end quote. I loved that quote, which is so good. Oh, my gosh. Also, you think about leto talking about 3500 years. Seems like a long time until you compare it to infinity. You compare it to endless time, and then it becomes just another blip. He is. His golden path goes far beyond 3,500 years. It goes to infinity. It goes forever. And the question is, how do you prepare a species for forever when literally anything can come out of that?

[Abu]

Yeah, and I think there's another layer to this quote, too, because within the context of this conversation, what Balanda, Tamerlane, and o' Draid are talking about is the scattering of their sisters out into the unknown, out into the infinite galaxy. Right. And Balanda and Tamlain are kind of like, what do you think's out there?

[Leo]

What.

[Abu]

What will happen? What could happen? What can we predict? What can we plan for? And Odrea's response here, I think, is quite powerful in that it's fruitless to try and project what's out there in infinity, in a galaxy that is so much larger than we can possibly fathom or predict for or plan for. There's no point in lining up the dominoes. We just have to take the leap of faith. We have to embrace the unknown and take a risk on this. So I thought there was an interesting layer here when it came to the actual scattering of the sisters themselves and this very Bene Gesserit Balanda, the archivist, need to plan and know versus Odrade pushing back and saying, hey, we're just, we're winging it. And sometimes that's okay, and sometimes that is necessary. And we're in a war that we are losing. It is necessary.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's this quote. Her advisors argued against tricky solutions. They said the sisterhood must move with steady assurance, the ground ahead known in advance. Everything they did lay counterpoised by the disaster awaiting them at the slightest misstep. End quote. The idea that we're talking about this, how do you prepare for infinity? What can come back from that universe? What can you encounter on that universe? And the idea that you must move with the ground ahead already known, that's just not possible in this universe.

[Abu]

No.

[Leo]

So that simple question of what?

[Abu]

That sounds dangerously prescient.

[Leo]

Yeah. That sounds like they're falling back on the same old patterns that led to Paul and led to fucking Leto. Like, this is an order who has fundamentally not learned their lesson. And it's fascinating to see that sort of embodied by these different little moments with these very familiar characters having these conversations over and over again. Truly, as the three travel along the way, which is this kind of like Central street, we get a sense of how much Odrade is really subtly and also overtly pushing the status quo. Right. She is preoccupied with the danger presented in Bene Gesserit habits, the sort of typicals, as Scytale would call them, wondering if the lovely and comforting beautiful elm lined Tree street, right, this, this like picturesque, beautiful little neighborhood is too much of a pattern. Have we weakened ourselves by relying so heavily on these familiar settings and kind of reconstructing them every time? Well, Balanda finally confronts Odrade about Duncan Idaho. She's like, listen, he's a mentat. That clearly means he's got serial memories. I think he's a Kwisatz Haderach. And you're not treating this as seriously as you should be. That could be the end of our order and the end of humanity. O' Draid remarks, yeah, Duncan's a mentat. He's a fine mentat, but more important than being a mentat, he's an inventor. He can see patterns and come up with new solutions. I don't need another person to remind me of what's in the archives and to tell me what history says and to look into their other memory. I need someone who comes up with solutions for tomorrow. And that's something that Duncan Idaho represents. She even says, quote, I am freeing his mind, not his body, end quote. I'm giving him the room to Invent and to give us solutions. I'm not letting him loose. I'm not freeing him to the world, you know, so he can become a sand giant. Sandworm. We're keeping him. We're keeping him in check. Okay. Well, back in her office, she decides, okay, it's time. I'm gonna let you in on the plan. With a possible caveat here. *. Giant *, size, font size 95. *. All right, Tambly Balanda. Hey, politics. And they're like, holy shit, she said the word. And then she pushes the buzzer, and in comes miles tag, 10 years old, Gola child, already such a badass. I love when Blonda's, like, snapping at him, and he just, like, smiles, and he's like, yeah, what's up? Love. Love that little moment. And basically, the plan is to break patterns. They have been too typical. They've been too much in their patterns, in their books, in their histories. Duncan Idaho is going to restore Baby Tag's memories. Whoa, too young? I don't think so. We need him. We need our Bashar now more than ever, which is also poetic, right? This is reversing the roles that we saw in Heretics, right? Tag awakening Duncan. Now Duncan will awaken Teg. And, of course, Mirbella will also be there to assist, I guess, whatever that means. Now, while that process is at play, Odrade is hoping that Duncan's mind will be unlocked, freed a little bit with Merbella on board. If, of course, at any point, that's starting to get a little Kwisatz Haderachy. If you start to smell that Kwisatz Haderach smell in the air, they're gonna pull the plug. And they can. They can kill them, because, again, they free the mind, but they haven't freed the body. The body's right there. It's very vulnerable to knives and poison. So they can take care of that. Now, Tag, once restored, once back in his little body, can organize and lead a punishment force against the Honored Matre. Right? The Bene Gesserit are losing this war, and something they haven't tried is a swift and violent movement against the Honored Matre. And maybe that is what it takes to sort of reset this cycle and. And to change up this trend of the Benning Jesuit slowly being eliminated planet.

[Abu]

By planet. Right? Yeah. Despite what Balanda's numbers show, despite everything pointing to their utter destruction, if.

[Leo]

They.

[Abu]

Do that. Right. I think this is a huge gamble on Odrade's part, to be clear. You know, like, there is some Validity to Balanda and Tamalain's pushback in saying, wait, we're not ready yet, though. What are.

[Leo]

You.

[Abu]

Talking about? Right. We're going to move against the Honored Matre. We're here hiding on Chapter House because everything points to us getting our asses wiped if.

[Leo]

We.

[Abu]

Do that. Yeah. So it is.

[Leo]

A bold move. Yeah. It's insane. Nevertheless, as the chapter wraps up, it is clear that even though she's going, hey, here's the plan, I'm going to tell you the whole plan. She's not actually telling them the whole plan. It is clear that o' Draid is still fucking up to stuff. She has all of these little moments where she's like, yeah, if. If this thing happens, then that's gonna happen. And. And it's. Oh, man, they have no idea. They've got no idea. And we're starting to have maybe an idea, but we're gonna have to wait to find out. What a fucking good book. What.

[Abu]

A.

[Leo]

Good book.

[Abu]

Yeah. So good. I'm on the edge of my seat. I can't wait. All right, well, next up, we have a deep dive takeaway to get into. But before we do that, folks, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're getting into our takeaways. And then, of course, later, we have some yummy spice morsels to chomp down on. Lots more to talk about. We'll see you.

[Leo]

In a minute. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. All right, let's talk about the.

[Abu]

Bene.

[Leo]

Gesserit education. Yes. Mirbela is thinking about how different the educational systems of the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matre are. Right. She is the outsider, giving us our perspective on the Bene Gesserit from the outsider's point of view. But she's also the best person to compare and contrast the Bene Gesserit way of doing things and the Honored Matre way.

[Abu]

Of.

[Leo]

Doing things. Yeah. And she is at. Right now, as we are with her in chapter 11, she is beginning to see how inadequate her. Her Honored Matre teachings were. Quote, I regurgitated on demand. That was called.

[Abu]

Education. End.

[Leo]

Quote. Tough luck. Damn. For the Honored Matres also, we've talked about, like, good teachers versus bad teachers, good education versus bad. In our personal experiences. I think both of us. I have a sympathy for that. The worst teachers I've had or the worst classes I've had have been the ones where it's like, just regurgitate what you've been told. Right. Like just. And you're not synthesizing it, you're not thinking, you're not engaging with it. It's just rote memorization. Brutal. That sucks. And that's the entire Honored Matre Mo. That's rough.

[Abu]

That's.

[Leo]

Pretty bad. Yeah. Now Odrade observes how that method of teaching is actually typical of power hungry societies. You teach people to avoid being decisive and independent and engaging with the information and questioning and being curious. And instead of all of those fun, good details and good qualities, they are simply compliant and they fall in line and they do.

[Abu]

What.

[Leo]

They'Re told. Right. You learn the things you learn. You regurgitate when you're told to. If you do that well, you'll move forward. And if you do that badly, you're going back a grade.

[Abu]

Or.

[Leo]

Whatever. Right? Yes. And there's another interesting quote in this chapter from o' Draid that is clearly Frank Herbert as always getting a little bit onto his pedestal, his soapbox that he basically moved onto midway through, I think probably the second book, sharing his views on educational systems. And we want to spend some time today unpacking it and talking about how like Frank's own perspectives maybe bleed into this chapter, but also kind of where we sit with this information.

[Abu]

And this perspective. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's kind of interesting here, a little behind the scenes for you folks, is we're working on an upcoming episode about this interview that Frank did in 1981 with Mother Earth News magazine. And a lot of what he says in that interview is extremely applicable to today's takeaway and this idea around education. So sort of a happy coincidence that we happen to be doing that research right now as we are covering this chapter. So we're going to be referencing that interview quite a bit to help illustrate the ideas here. But let's start by just talking about this quote from o'. Draid. This is how it starts. Educational bureaucracies dull a child's questing sensitivity. The young must be damped down. Never let them know how good they can be. That brings.

[Leo]

Change. End quote. Oh my God.

[Abu]

God forbid change. That's only the first couple sentences of.

[Leo]

This longer quote. So good.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, right. God forbid change. God forbid the kids know how good they can be, that they can fulfill their potential. And it's clear here that o' Draid Frank's basic criticisms of this type of highly bureaucratic educational system fall into a couple of key categories. One, that this type of system suppresses creativity. Right. Dulls a child's questing sensitivity. Two, that it rewards conformity. The young must be damped down. They must never be told how good they can be. Good enough to perhaps push back.

[Leo]

On.

[Abu]

A system. Yeah. And three, that final line that brings change. The third category, the third criticism here appears to be that bureaucratic systems of education ultimately serve political or larger institutional goals that are not necessarily about bringing out the best potential in their students. And what's interesting is from this chapter we get a sense that the Bene Gesserit to some extent do the opposite of those things. They teach their acolytes that they do have great potential beyond even what.

[Leo]

They.

[Abu]

Can imagine. Yeah. And that is why they should always be pushing to their own personal limits. The acolytes are always pushed to their limits and just slightly beyond, so that they can become the best.

[Leo]

Version.

[Abu]

Of themselves. Yeah. It is a pretty inspiring way to teach. It reminds me very much of my.

[Leo]

Hero academia. Right.

[Abu]

Go plus.

[Leo]

Ultra. Go beyond. Yeah. Even further beyond. I also think about, like, we watched Faradin being basically wooed over to the Bene Gesserit. Again, another example, like Mirbela, of an outsider being inducted into Bene Gesserit ways of thinking and being made Bene Gesserit. And for Faradin, those first early exercises were just about visualization, were just looking at your hand becoming a child, becoming an old person, and that imagination and opening up those possibilities. Also, we talked before we recorded about Frieren, which is all about magic and mage and society. It's like, how much can you picture the thing happening? And if you can imagine it happening, if that's even a possibility, it is much more a possibility than if you start off thinking you're not going to succeed. There's a real hard limit to what you believe is possible. And if you teach people that's how they break elephants. It's like they tack them down with the rope on the peg when they're too small to pull the post out. But then when they're older, they've learned that they can't pull the post out already, so they don't even know that they.

[Abu]

Can.

[Leo]

Just escape. Right. Again, you teach them that lesson early so that they don't question. And because they don't question, they're stuck in that power dynamic, basically. Yeah, exactly. So.

[Abu]

Resonant. That's cool. It's really interesting stuff. And this is where I want to bring in that 1981 interview with mother Earth News magazine that we've been researching, because there's a lot of interesting Criticism here, those three buckets that I mentioned earlier, the suppressing of creativity, the rewarding of conformity, the serving of political goals. That criticism very much aligns with what we know of Frank Herbert's general views. Right. His distrust of bureaucracy and centralized authority, and in particular his views on education come up in that 1981 interview. And I want to share a quote from that interview that I think is very relevant. This is about his criticisms of the American education system. The teaching of our young ought to be about equally divided between the family, which should lay the groundwork for a child's learning, and professionals who can pass on useful knowledge that the child's relatives might not have in their repertoire. Today, though, the professional education establishment assumes that the family doesn't know what its own members need or want. The result is a classic failure, an institutionalized system that does more harm than good. End quote. Yeah, those are the words of Frank himself in that interview. And in fact, later on in that interview, he goes on to talk about how he actually moved his family out of the country multiple times. He moved to Mexico so that he'd be allowed to homeschool his children. He wasn't allowed to do that because he was told he wasn't qualified to do that in the United States. And so he said, fuck you, I'm moving. And raised and taught his kids.

[Leo]

Himself in Mexico. Yeah, and honestly, like this criticism from. From Odrade, really. But. But also from Frank in this interview does have some merit. Right? Like when we talk about the module modern educational system and the system that was developing over the last hundred years or so, but especially here in the United States, like there are some big problems with it. And you pulled up this 2006 TED talk, which is the late, late author and renowned educator Sir Ken Robinson, who made the case basically for supporting children's creativity. Yeah, quote, all kids have tremendous talents and we squander them pretty ruthlessly. My contention is that creativity now is as important in education as literacy and we should treat it with the same status, end quote. Joke's on him 19 years later. Literacy also not taken super seriously here in the US So fucking get dunked on. Sir Ken Robinson, if that is your real name. Yeah, no jokes aside, legitimately, I also fully agree with that. I think the idea of creativity, believing that you can do stuff, being curious, having that kind of playful quality, it's all so, so, so, so, so important. And yeah, and again, ultimately is something that the educational system should have built into it. I'm very privileged to have gone to A charter school which was able to kind of define its own curriculum. And because of that, holy shit. I started with such an advantage in the arts and in creative arenas because I just had early exposure to it as part of my education. It was so useful. So, again, fully agree. I mean, hard agree on.

[Abu]

That for sure. Same. It's a really great TED Talk. It's only about 20 minutes. I highly recommend folks, look it up. It's again, Sir Ken Robinson. In a 2006 TED talk on creativity in the educational system. He talks about this really wonderful story where this woman's daughter basically is told that her child is struggling in school and has trouble paying attention. Sort of like the classic, like, this kid is not good at school. Something's wrong with him, and she then seeks help. She's like, is something wrong with my daughter? Like, let's go to a doctor. Let's get some diagnoses. Let's figure this out. And the doctor basically is like, in the room with the daughter. And then he says, I'm gonna go outside and talk to your mom real quick. He turns on the radio, walks outside, talks to the mom. And the mom's like, oh, what's wrong? What's the diagnosis? And he says, nothing's wrong. Look at her. And she's in the room dancing. And he says, there's nothing wrong with your daughter. She's just a very good dancer and not a very good student in the current educational system. Take her to dance classes. And this woman is the person.

[Leo]

Who choreographed Cats. Whoa.

[Abu]

Shit. Oh, cool. And went on to choreograph and create her own Broadway dance company and is a very successful multimillionaire dance instructor and businesswoman. And all it took was somebody to recognize that she's not failing as a student because she is dumb or inadequate, but it's because her education is not speaking her language. Her language. The way she sees the world, the way she interprets life, is through dance. She needs to go to dance school and be allowed to let that flourish. So, you know, that's one anecdotal example. But I think in general, that illustrates Robinson's point in this TED Talk, this idea that just because you can't do a pop quiz on math very well does not mean you're inadequate. It could just mean that you are a different.

[Leo]

Type.

[Abu]

Of learner. Yeah. And that's something that the educational system needs to embrace en masse across the nation. I think individual schools, I think both of us actually have been quite lucky to have gone to really good schools. I Went to what I later learned was the wealthiest public school district in all of Ohio. And so we had a lot of resources. I went to these extracurricular classes where I was just told to make videos. And that's, like, the whole reason I'm in audio and video production today. Yeah. Because I was just given, like, an hour a day every single day at school to just, like, fuck around with cameras and, like, make stupid little videos that then, like, sometimes got aired on TV on the, like.

[Leo]

School TV system. Yeah. I also. I will say, kind of my hot take is I don't believe talent exists. Or I think it's, like, a frequently misused word that implies some sort of, like, yeah, I don't know, born thing. Magic that you just. Oh, you're good at music. And it's like, I think it is so poorly understood the myriad influences that can lead someone to being. Having, say, for instance, having that kind of relationship to dance and to music and to rhythm and to feeling it and everything. Like, I think that's frequently misunderstood, especially as someone who's spent my whole life doing art and music. It's like, I look back on the hours and hours and hours I've spent doing it all, and it's like. Yeah, it's just. It is. Ironically, it's math. It's the amount of time you put into it. And so one of the things that I maintain is, like, the idea of talent is just, how much, like, fuel in the tank do you have for that thing? If you find yourself constantly comfortable writing and you can just write for hours and hours and hours. Yeah. Okay. I feel comfortable saying you're a talented writer because you have what it takes to put the hours in to become better and to, you know, whatever. Again, we don't need to get into that whole conversation. But I do think that, like, when we talk about children, they apply themselves to dance or they apply themselves to music or whatever. I think being sensitive to those appetites when they're children and then giving them outlets for those appetites is so critical, is so. So important. And you even pulled up this. This idea. Right. Like, studies have shown that IQ scores are generally trending upward. People are doing better in some places. I feel like the US is maybe stagnating a bit or maybe not doing so hot, but creativity is beginning to drop and is kind of dropping off, which. Which began in the 90s. And critics primarily are kind of blaming the renewed focus on standardized.

[Abu]

Testing.

[Leo]

Which. Man. Yeah. What a gross couple of words. Because for sure, I get it.

[Abu]

I.

[Leo]

Understand it. Yeah. I, you know, I think the standardized testing as a. As a focus of the educational system in the United States, the policies like no Child Left behind, these are things that have caused maybe a little bit less of the case by case. We're going to let everyone thrive in their own way and more of. But you actually have to get a really good score on the SATs. And if you don't, we're going to take away resources from you, and we're not going to give you opportunities to thrive if you can't fucking do this math test the way that we want you to. And that's. That is like one perspective, and it's one that I think, you know, carries some water for sure. Has some. Has some validity behind it. It's not the whole picture, of course, but it's one that is definitely worth remembering as we talk about.

[Abu]

All of this. Yeah. And very in line with Frank's criticism here in the book and his criticisms in the Mother Earth News magazine article about the educational system. I think the data has shown that highly bureaucratic education systems that do focus heavily on standardized testing and scores, that do pare down curriculum to focus on particular parts of intelligence, that ignore other parts of intelligence, do hamper creativity, do reward conformity. You know, like, people who succeed in those systems are just the people who happen to be good at those systems. Your dancer might not be able to do the goddamn arithmetic that's required for this standardized test and then maybe is never put in a position where she can go and choreograph huge Broadway plays because she was never given those opportunities because, oh, she's a failure. She can't do this math test to the level that we.

[Leo]

Require.

[Abu]

Her to. Yeah. That is where the problem comes in. And I think that is a very valid criticism from Frank here about the education system. Agreed. Too much focus on that becomes more harmful than helpful. On the other hand, I do want to call out Odrade Frank's assertion in this quote here, though, that education systems are just these nefarious state tools that push government policies and conformity to a certain mindset in society that is a little bit overblown. And I think in general, when you look into Frank's criticisms of the education system, he does tend to overlook the potential benefits of an education system that is implemented correctly with the best intent. Right. An equitable public education system can do things like push the needle, even if slightly, on social mobility, which is ultimately positive. It can also, and I think this is really powerful, create a more informed and ideally more involved citizenry. Right. Which is crucial for any healthy, functioning democracy out there. You want people who know what they're talking about or can go out and seek and learn what they need to and have the tools to do that. You want a citizenry that is able to participate in society and democracy.

[Leo]

In that way. Yeah.

[Abu]

Versus 100% dancers.

[Leo]

Versus.

[Abu]

100% dancers. Right. There are positives to having robust public education systems that have rigorous testing and that ultimately are a good for society. And I think like Frank likes to focus in on criticisms of where it constantly goes wrong and will often overlook the positive aspects of it too. So just hand waving away that public education is just propaganda from the government is a. Is.

[Leo]

A little much. No kidding. Well, ohrade back to back to kind of the spark that started this fire. The conversation. Oh Draid's quote to Mirbela continues. Quote, spend lots of committee time talking about how to deal with exceptional students. Don't spend any time dealing with how the conventional teacher feels threatened by emerging talents and squelches them because of a deep seated desire to feel superior and safe in a safe.

[Abu]

Environment.

[Leo]

End quote. Okay. And that feels a little bit more straight from his personal perspective. I do think the idea that it is the conventional teacher who is feeling threatened by emerging talents and squelches them because of a deep seated desire to feel superior, that's painting with a very broad brush and doing so in a way that I don't think is justified. I can think legitimately of friends who are now teachers who have maybe a little bit of that. Like they enjoy the feeling of being the one at the front of the class who's like, has all the answers and has that kind of power dynamic with the students. And if a student's like, you're wrong about this, it's a moment of really being challenged. But like, to say that that's the conventional teacher is crazy. I think that's like.

[Abu]

That'S insane. Yeah. That's crazy talk. Yeah. And you know, again, this makes me think of a quote from the Mother Earth News magazine article that seems to really speak to how this very likely stems from just Frank's own personal experiences and is not based in any sort of actual large scale data about teachers. In that article he shares this story where he got detention after class at one point and the teacher yelled at him and how it like really left a lasting impression on him. Quote, she grabbed me by the shoulders, began shaking me roughly and cried. I'm not mad at you. I'm not mad at You? Well, I now know that teachers get long lectures during their training on the importance of keeping their tempers with their students. I may not have understood that at the time, but I didn't have a bit of trouble realizing that my teacher, who was repeatedly screaming, I'm not mad at you, was nearly out of her mind with rage. That incident drove home the lesson that what people say often doesn't agree with what they actually do. And that discovery played a big part in the shaping of my thinking and.

[Leo]

Behavior. End quote. Good. What did he do to that poor woman? What did Frank Herbert. He set fire.

[Abu]

To her car. He doesn't detail it in the interview. He says he got caught doing a prank. It's unclear what.

[Leo]

The prank was. Yeah, he burned her house down. Yeah. He was like, funny prank. I killed your whole family. She's like, I'm not.

[Abu]

Mad at you. Yeah. I mean, it's like, that is sad, right? Like, that is awful. A young boy, Frank, unknown age, but he was young enough to be crying. He said he was.

[Leo]

Crying in detention. Yeah. And I'm not trying to victim blame. I'm sure it was traumatic. And there's no reason for a teacher to ever put their hands.

[Abu]

On a student. No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. This teacher acted out of line. But then to say like, this is how all teachers are is a old.

[Leo]

Leap of logic. Typical. He's like, every teacher whose house I burned down was always like this. They were.

[Abu]

Always so.

[Leo]

Dramatic. Like what? So mad at.

[Abu]

Me. Ugh. Teachers. Can you just chill?

[Leo]

It's just arson. It's just art. It's just a bit of arson. It's not even a.

[Abu]

Lot of arson. Right. Ding dong ditch arson. Like, come on, kids.

[Leo]

Kids are kids. You toilet paper someone's house and then you burn it down. That's the pattern. Why.

[Abu]

Are you yelling? So I just found it again, really interesting and kind of coincidental that that this quote from o' draid came up in today's reading about teachers being threatened and wanting to feel superior in class. And then in the research that we're doing for this upcoming episode about this magazine article, he literally illustrates an incident where a teacher yells at him and makes him feel less than. And so it clearly shaped his mindset, which he admits himself in the quote, obviously. So sort of wrapping up these ideas and bringing it to a close. You already said it, and I agree wholeheartedly. I think, yes, anecdotally, you might have the one off teacher who maybe loses control of their emotions. Teachers are still people. Kids are Very difficult to work with. If anyone has experience with that, you know. But to be clear, as far as I could find, there is no data, there is no research that suggests teachers universally suppress gifted students out of some sort of fear or out of some sort of drive towards self preservation, as o' Draid asserts in this quote. There's nothing that supports that that I could find. And in fact, I found evidence to the contrary, to the fact that many teachers actually actively support their most gifted students and their most creative learners. And especially in wealthier districts and wealthier school systems where they have the more advanced tools and training to be able to support their most gifted students, they actively do that and they push for that more often. So, in fact, the opposite is true to what o' Draid is asserting here. There is no reason to believe that teachers hate their.

[Leo]

Most gifted students. Yeah, I will share. So as, as someone who taught classes for about a little over a decade, the one thing I will say is one of the challenges I had often, and I think people can relate to this, is you do feel sometimes like you need to justify why you're the one teaching. There needs to be that kind of recognition of like, you're, you're the one at the front of the class.

[Abu]

For a.

[Leo]

Reason. Yeah, right. In the world of like teaching technology classes, oftentimes that was like, I do need to demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about. There's a reason why I'm a teacher or like why I'm the coach or why I'm the facilitator. So what I could understand is Frank, maybe especially young Frank, who had never taught himself, saw someone say, try to keep the sort of gravitas of I'm in charge and then misinterpret it through that lens, that kind of naive lens of they, they're feeling challenged and intimidated by that smart student who keeps burning their house down. You know, they're so intimidated whenever they burn down their house. And I'm like, oh, stop being intimidated by your smart students. I think that, like, it feels like an incomplete picture of what educators are. And you do have to like, you know, you have to be able to control the room of children. One of my friends is, directs children. He has like 6,013 year old boys in a choir. He has to get them to like. And again, it's like you have to, you have to be able to rally them and get them to shut the fuck up sometimes. And so there is like a. You do need something. And so it's like, how you kind of arrest that. Something I'm sure could be misinterpreted by someone who's never had to.

[Abu]

Do that themselves. Yeah. I think this also really speaks to Frank's personal experiences. Like, I can relate, actually to being, like, an arrogant little shithead in class. I was very much an arrogant little shithead in many of my classes. I remember going to a counselor in college one time and being like, I don't want to take the class. It's making me dumber.

[Leo]

This.

[Abu]

Is stupid. Sweet. I just said that to the counselor's face. And I think back, and honestly, she handled it really well. She was just like, well, then I suggest you sit down and do the math on how many classes you can skip to still just pass and.

[Leo]

Just.

[Abu]

Do that. Damn. Hell, yeah, she handled it so well because I was being such an arrogant asshole. Imagine walking in and being like, your class is making me dumber. I don't want to take it, but I understand, like, when you are, like, young and arrogant and think you know it all and you've been told your whole life that you are smart, you know that you are an honor student, an AP class student, you're the best of the best. Frank, I can imagine, is, like, was very much a talented student, very smart. And so, like, when he found himself bored or when the. When the education system wasn't speaking to him at his level or pushing his creativity, I'm sure he'd, like, push back. I'm sure he was like, this is fucking stupid. I don't want to be here. And I really feel some of that energy within these quotes from odrade and within the writing here that some of young Frank, like middle school, grade school Frank, is coming out here. Somebody who was bored in class and would then push back against their teachers and when the teachers got mad, would be like, well, fuck you. You're just threatened by me because I'm smarter than you. But I think to wrap up the ideas, I do think o' draid Frank's critiques of bureaucracy, educational bureaucracies in general are very valid and actually very true. And we should really, really be focused on it at a systemic and policy level. But I think when you hone down to an individual, teacher by teacher level, that's where some of Frank's critiques begin to fall apart. And in general, what I learned working on this takeaway and from my research for this episode, in general, teachers fail when the system fails, not the other way around. And that is where we should be focusing our efforts on the Systems that support the teachers who then.

[Leo]

Support the students. Yeah. It's also worth noting, like the Bene Gesserit are not modeling an educational system that works for everyone. They by their own fucking design are picking the top.

[Abu]

1% of.

[Leo]

Students. That's right. And going, we're going to take you away from the fucking dirty, dirty masses and ignore them. They, they get to squander in their muck or whatever. We're gonna like give you your tailored education, you know, we're gonna, you know.

[Abu]

Hone your.

[Leo]

Talents. Oh yeah. Meet you where you are. And.

[Abu]

All.

[Leo]

Very elite. Yes.

[Abu]

It's.

[Leo]

So privileged.

[Abu]

Yeah. So elitist. Yeah. The Benny Jesuit are not running public schools, to be clear. Like they're not dealing with.

[Leo]

Public school problems. Like I think canonically they. Part of how they ingratiated themselves to the universe is that they had these sort of schools for students. But still, still their whole thing, and especially at Odrade's level is picking the hand, picking the students and then giving them that tailored experience. So it's also, it's worth noting that like they're, they're talking from a very high horse named Streggy. They're atop the shoulders of Streggy and they can't even fucking see the ground anymore, let alone give like a good take. That like, you know, is a, is a scalable.

[Abu]

Solution.

[Leo]

For everyone. Yeah. So again, great. No one is here with the.

[Abu]

Full solution. Right. But I think ultimately Murbella is sold bringing this back to Dune, this idea of education. Mirbella is sold on the Bene Gesserit systems of learning because they might be elitist, they might be selective. Maybe they aren't applicable at a large public education level, but for what they want to achieve, they do it really, really well. It's an education system that's focused on candor and honesty and fostering creativity and pushing their already elite students to even greater elite heights. And I think that's something that Mirbela recognizes. It's something that she didn't get in the.

[Leo]

Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Teachings. Right. Yeah. And it has sold her. And there is something to be learned there that there are lessons we can take from how the Bene Gesserit are teaching and apply them to better our larger scale education systems. Some big ideas from Frank here. I.

[Leo]

Really appreciated it. I did too. Well, excellent takeaway, love. Kind of looking at again, I think when we talk about these books, they are sci fi books, they're fun books. There's futars and necks getting kicked and flip darts and all sorts of fun shit. But ultimately Frank was an author who wrote because he had things to say about society. And it's always fun to kind of peel back the layers a bit and go, yeah, this is a book about space drugs and messiahs and politics, but it's also a book about society. And I think today, in 2025, it is still worthwhile to look at these ideas and to apply them to our world around us. We are of course, going to continue talking about that as the book continues and we will come back to it many.

[Abu]

Times.

[Leo]

I'm sure. Definitely. We are going to head to our spice morsels, but first we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back. Yes, we're talking wooden birds. Don't go anywhere. We'll.

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[Abu]

For all times. Welcome back, folks. Let's round out today's episode and today's excellent discussion by chomping down on two very yummy spice morsels, one of which is bird themed. So to start, morsel number one, let's talk about.

[Leo]

GMO wooden.

[Abu]

Beams. Ooh, nice. So in today's reading we get this little aside about the wooden beams that are used to build this Acolyte hall on Chapter House where Odrade is having dinner. Somewhere on Chapter House, there was a grove of genetically tailored oaks or reaching up to sunlight in their carefully tended plantations. Trees going up 30 meters at least, without a limb, and more than 2 meters through the bowls. They had been planted when this hall was built. Replacements for these beams when age weakened them. 1900 standard years the beams were supposed to.

[Leo]

Endure. End quote.

[Abu]

Damn. Very cool. Yeah, that is some very fun world building for dune. But I think it got both of us wondering about trees. Are there actually trees that live for 1900 years and are usable even.

[Leo]

After 1900 years? Yeah. I was like, is that a long time? Is that a crazy long time or is that short?

[Abu]

Sounds long, but. So you did some. I'm going to give you all the credit here you did some really.

[Leo]

Wonderful tree.

[Abu]

Research. Tree.

[Leo]

Search. Tree search.

[Abu]

There it is. And we came up with somewhat of an answer to that question. Is 1900 years a realistic expectation for a tre to live and still be used as a support beam in a hall, in a big dining hall? The answer, though, of course, is complicated. As always. At first, you dug up this article about the Colombo structure, these wooden beams that were found in Zambia dating.

[Leo]

Back 476,000.

[Abu]

Years. Crazy. Yeah. But to be clear, these beams aren't supporting any weight anymore, so they're not like, structurally relevant if you're an architect. They're just.

[Leo]

Very.

[Abu]

Old beams. Yeah. So shifting focus to wooden structures that are still standing today, one name that comes up a lot is the Horyuji Gakumonji, which is a Buddhist temple which was burned down in 670 A.D. but was then rebuilt. And the main hall of that temple.

[Leo]

Is.

[Abu]

Still standing. Yeah. Which clocks in roughly at about.

[Leo]

1300 years.

[Abu]

Old. Yeah, yeah. Those beams are.

[Leo]

Still up, baby. Yeah, they're still standing. I'm.

[Abu]

Still standing now. Atlas Obscura describes the longevity of this temple in this way. Architects had the foresight and knowledge to choose hinoki, or cypress wood, known for its resilience and durability for construction. It said Horiuchi is as strong today as it was when it was first.

[Leo]

Hewn. End quote. Crazy. Wow. 1300 years later, going.

[Abu]

Strong. 1300 years. Now, when you look into those cypress trees, those Japanese hinoki cypress, you learn that they're quite rot resistant and can last over a thousand years. And so these might actually be the closest real world analogy that we have to these Bene Gesserit oaks that o' Drade is observing in the hall. And if we extrapolate within the dune universe, it's not hard to imagine that by the time of Odrade and Balanda and Tamlain, thousands and thousands and thousands of years in the future, they've advanced tree technology enough to be able to double the longest lasting timber that we have today. If a Japanese Hinoki cypress can last a thousand years, I'm sure the Bene Gesserit have figured out a way to make a.

[Leo]

Tree last 2000.

[Abu]

Yeah, pretty good. It's super fun. And to wrap up this morsel, one final thought here about this point about the trees. The Bene Gesserit, as we know, have always been characterized as these long term planters. Their plants are made in centuries. They clearly treat their construction and their architecture in the same way, with the same sort of care they have built a hall with replacement trees that will be ready in 2000 years when this hall is no longer ready. That illustrates the Bene Gesserit mindset and the way this organization has operated for centuries. But it also, in this book, thematically speaking, illustrates some of the dangers that O'Drade is thinking about. Right, These typical patterns of the Bene Gesserit. Oh, of course they do long term planning. If they have oaks in this hall that will last for 2000 years, you can easily assume they got a 2000 year plantation of trees somewhere else. That's how they always work. That's something if you are their enemy, you can use against them. So it does seem quite evocative that this detail is in this book, in odraid's thoughts as she is worrying in these chapters about the patterns the Bene Gesserit constantly find themselves falling in. That long term planning is one.

[Leo]

Of those patterns. Yeah, I had so much fun learning about that. Also, just because there is so much to. There's lots of conversations in Japan about why they use so much wood. And as a country that has a lot of earthquakes and fires and it's volcanic, there's lots of reasons why wood structures are not necessarily the most logical choice. But even though they had bricklaying technology, they were still using wood for a lot of these temples that are still standing and some of the oldest standing wooden structures in the world, period, like, full stop. It's really, it's fascinating stuff. Well, our second morsel today. Orioles and tanagers. Whoo. Birds. So in our final chapter today, o', Draid, Tamlin and Belinda are inspecting chapter house. They're walking around. We get this little blurb quote. Down the center ran a line of elms genetically tailored for height and narrow profile. Birds nested in them. And the morning was bright with flitting spots of red and orange. Orioles, tanagers. End quote. So off the cuff, I was like, oriole, that's a bird. I'm pretty sure that's a bird. That's a. That's.

[Abu]

A.

[Leo]

Baseball bird. Baseball. But tanagers, is that a bird? Probably a bird. Never heard of it. I was like, tannin, like the wine. No tang. Tangle ends. No. I don't know. Tanagers. All right, sure. So I decided to look into it to see if there's any kind of, like, stuff to glean, like the world building again that Frank is doing. Why did he choose those birds? Why those birds and not others? Right? So starting with orioles, right? They are small birds, Black Feathers, but they do have in their plumage, spots of bright orange and yellow. So lots of really bright colors in addition to the black feathers. They were first formally described back in 1758. And orioles are still basically localized entirely in the US and Canada. Kind of the Northeast ish kind of area. Their diet is mostly insects and fruits, but. Favorite website, new favorite website, allaboutbirds.org says, please sponsor us all about birds.org love that.

[Abu]

URL. That's great. Yeah, we'll throw bird.

[Leo]

Facts into every episode if you sponsor us starting now. I love bird facts. So all about birds.org says quote, unlike robins and many other fruit eating birds, Baltimore Orioles seem to prefer only ripe, dark colored fruit. Orioles seek out the darkest mulberries, the reddest cherries, and the deepest and the deepest purple grapes, and will ignore green grapes and yellow cherries, even if.

[Abu]

They.

[Leo]

Are ripe. Yeah. End.

[Abu]

Quote. Thank you. Honestly, call me an oriole.

[Leo]

Fuck green, dude. Fuck them. Yeah, call me an.

[Abu]

Oriole all day. Supposed.

[Leo]

To be purple. The deepest of purple, deepest and sweetest of grapes. Thanks. All about birds.org now again, final facts about Orioles. They are the state bird of Maryland and the namesake, of course, of the MLB team, the major League baseball team, the Baltimore Orioles, who happened to win the world. I was wondering, okay, were they named that when Frank was writing this book? Was this like a known team? Very, very much so. They were named that. And not only were the Baltimore Orioles around, they won the World Series in 1983. Whoa. About the time that Frank would have been writing this book. So I wonder if Frank was a closeted Baltimore Orioles fan. I'm not saying he is. I don't super care about sports, but like.

[Abu]

Hey, it's possible. Wow, that's a fun fact.

[Leo]

I love that. Now, moving on. Tanagers, the lesser known of the birds. I would say this is a family of birds containing 4% of all avian species, which is crazy. It's a very large group of bird species, but they are broadly characterized as being small to medium sized, brightly colored. There are scarlet tanagers who are like bright, bright, bright red. There are, there are other, other types that are all basically any color you can imagine. And they also subsist on fruits and insects. Quick note. I was like, wait, do all birds eat fruit? And I looked it up. No, all birds do not eat fruit. For instance, sparrows, seeds and insects, they don't eat fruit. So only some birds eat fruit. Because there are so many types of tanagers can't really Talk too much about them because that's too much information. But it is worth noting.

[Abu]

Also.

[Leo]

South America. Yeah. Okay.

[Abu]

Back to Dune. Unless we get sponsored by all about birds.org then we will talk about every single.

[Leo]

Tanager out there. We're gonna hard pivot via bird podcast. Goodbye, dude. Back to birds. So, because we have not yet been sponsored by allaboutbirds.org let's talk.

[Abu]

About.

[Leo]

Dune again. Yeah. Alas, alas, not yet. Now you have, dear listener, an opportunity to. You know, you can look up these birds, you can look up tanagers, you can look up orioles, and you can picture this beautiful elm lined street that have these birds, these colorful little birds flitting their little wings, filling your imagination. I do want to point out that these two birds that Frank chose to name have diets that include fruit, which feels perfect for a planet that has orchards. Fruit orchards. Vast Bene Gesserit driven fruit orchards feels notable. This, this diet and the availability of fruit going hand in hand. And also nothing the Bene Gesserit do is haphazard. Right? They don't. They don't. They're not fucking around. They're always doing something with plans within plans within plans. Oh, certainly kind of the theme of this book. So, Lyco trade wonders, quote, is it dangerously patterned for us to prefer this familiar setting? End quote. I wonder how much these colorful, pleasant, beautiful little birds that eat fruit and eat insects, how much are they part of this broader pattern? How much are they part of the lovely, familiar? How many chapter houses over the tens of thousands of years have had these elm lined streets with these colorful little birds that actually go back to North America and South America, respectively? It's possible. It is fully possible, dear listener, that the Bene Gesserit have brought the birds with them to every subsequent planet to have.

[Abu]

These familiar settings. I.

[Leo]

Don'T doubt it. For the insects they eat, for the diets they have all of that. And how much is that a part of the problem? How much of that is part of this pattern that they need to break the next planet? All crows. All crows and.

[Abu]

Ostriches. They're.

[Leo]

Like. That's right. Fully flightless. Kiwis.

[Abu]

Kiwis and ostriches. Totally.

[Leo]

Random birds, Brandon. Birds. All about.

[Abu]

Birds dot org. You have a.

[Leo]

Favorite bird, Leo? Oh, I'm a huge sucker for ravens and crows. I like the corvids. Yeah, corvid families. I love ravens and crows. Ravens are great. What about you? Do you have.

[Abu]

A favorite bird? I don't, but I'm quickly panicking and googling. Best bird. Let's see.

[Leo]

What comes up. Hank Green loves pelicans. They're pretty weird owls. Oh.

[Abu]

Here we go. Reddit, the birding. Reddit. It's so dang hard to pick your favorite bird. What are.

[Leo]

Your top ten? Oh, damn. Okay, look through that top ten. Which one jumps out at you is your favorite? Okay, I will say kiwis.

[Abu]

Are excellent birds. The hooded warbler. Hold on, I'm going to Google what a.

[Leo]

Hooded warbler is. Oh, he's cute. Hooded warbler.

[Abu]

You know what? I'm going to do that. I'm going to jump on.

[Leo]

The bandwagon here. Hooded warblers. Oh, okay. Wow. Hooded warbler bandwagon are over here. Of course, when they're up top.

[Abu]

You'Re. You're here. They're gonna.

[Leo]

Win the world. The second they lose a game, you disappear. You're like, oh, never mind. I like eagles.

[Abu]

Again. Fucking basic. Incredible. What a great takeaway. Great job on that research. Love.

[Leo]

Some bird facts. Yeah, huge fan.

[Abu]

Of bird facts. All right, folks, that wraps it up for today's episode. A truly fun one, a great set of chapters, and I've had a great time breaking it down in this conversation with you, Leo. Dear listener, though, we have homework for you for the next book club episode. Folks, submit your questions because we got a.

[Leo]

Mailbag coming.

[Abu]

Up. Oh, shit. This will be. We like to pause a couple of times during our reading and really take in what we've read. And so this is a great time for you to submit your questions. Yes, about chapter house, Dune. That's primarily what we'll focus on in that episode, but about Dune at large. And of course, we also love the occasional off topic question. At one point someone asked about our favorite ice cream or whether we liked pulp in our orange juice, and that nearly divided this podcast in two. So please submit any and all questions. Yes, chapter house related. Yes, Dune related. But also off topic ones as well. Yeah, email them, send them via Discord, Tweet at us. Carrier pigeon.

[Leo]

Blue sky, whatever.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the next book club episode, make sure you've read the next three chapters of this book. 16, 17, and 18. But if your copy of the book is a little bit different than ours, then read up to the chapter that ends on the sentence, quote, the horde of lampadas venting emotions it had confined for many generations. End quote. Something tells me we're gonna be back with Lucilla, the.

[Leo]

Unkillable, undefeatable Lucilla. Going strong. Going strong. Like that hooded warbler. Yeah. Until she. Well, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support us and what we do here at Gom Jabbar and to keep in touch with us. And of course, the two best ways to support us to become a patron [e-mail] Gom Jabbar. And of course, we have a merchandise store. It's currently down, but we're working on it. Those links are in the show notes. Every little bit that you can do helps us out. We.

[Abu]

Really appreciate it. We do indeed. And of course, a quick reminder that the best way to keep in touch with us is to email us. Come to our podcastmail.com, send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us pictures of your cute.

[Leo]

Birds. I guess. Yeah, send us your favorite bird. Dear listeners, I want to hear your favorite birds in our live chat. Normal Sinva said the secretary bird is their favorite bird. These are excellent. Have you seen these Abu? They have.

[Abu]

Really googled it. And this dude is a freak.

[Leo]

I love them. They've got really long little legs and they. They curl up their little. Their little claws and they punch snakes in the head and they kill snakes by punching them in the head with their feet. They're so great. If only there was a word for when you punch someone with your foot. But anyway, it's delightful. And there's whole videos of having like rubber snakes and them just like. And very actually very honored matre. Like the way those secretary birds.

[Abu]

Kick, you.

[Leo]

Know. Very cool.

[Abu]

Very, very cool. Damn. Yeah, I want to.

[Leo]

Know all about email them all about.

[Abu]

Birds.Org sponsor us. You see how I.

[Leo]

Snake that in. Real subtle, you know. Yeah, dude, I want to learn all about.

[Abu]

Do for you.

[Leo]

All about.

[Abu]

Birds. I'd love.

[Leo]

Okay, we this. Look.

[Abu]

At that.

[Leo]

Natural. So subtle. Natural integration. I just love learning all about birds. Pedaling.org do you want to.

[Abu]

Learn a little? My homepage on Safari.

[Leo]

To all about birds.org it's the first thing I do in.

[Abu]

Every new computer. Every time I open a web browser.

[Leo]

I get distracted. For fun, I go to Apple stores and I set all the computers to all about birds.org you know, just to spread the good bird. You know.

[Abu]

Spread the good. Yeah. I am banned from at least 47 as far as.

[Leo]

In the country. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Loraparty. We're all also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on.