Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 6)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 6)
February 20, 2026
Hosts: Abu and Leo

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Episode Overview

In this dense and engaging installment of the Gom Jabbar book club, Abu and Leo break down Chapters 16–18 of Chapterhouse: Dune, the final Frank Herbert novel. The episode delves into the political maneuverings between the Bene Gesserit, Scytale’s increasingly desperate machinations, Odrade’s audacious plans, the philosophical contrasts between the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres, and Frank Herbert’s sharp commentary on law, bureaucracy, and human nature. The hosts supplement their discussion with community callouts and spice morsels, providing humorous, thoughtful, and lore-rich analysis for both new and seasoned Dune fans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scytale’s Captivity and Arrogance (Chapter 16)

Timestamps: [04:06]–[14:28]

• Scytale’s Situation:

  • Still the “last master of masters” and prisoner on the Bene Gesserit no-ship.
  • Employs whistling as a “normal” habit to disguise his intent of using Tleilaxu secret whistling language to contact Duncan Idaho.
  • The irony of Scytale’s confidence: He thinks his chip (knowledge of axolotl tanks) gives him leverage, while the Sisterhood is knowingly keeping him alive only for that knowledge.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “[Scytale] begins to write the obituary for the Bene Gesserit for when he defeats them. My man is manifesting.” – Abu [13:14]
  • “He has, like, main character syndrome to the nth degree. He's like, dog, I got plot armor for days. Nothing's touching me.” – Leo [13:34]

• Notable Moment:

  • Discussion about the infamous line: “Tleilaxu sperm does not talk.”
    • Leo: “Do you think Tleilaxu sperm does not talk would be a good, like, hat, like, merchandise?” – [07:08]
    • Abu: “No.” – [07:16]

• Parallel Captivities:

  • Odrade’s slow coercion strategy vs. Honored Matres’ more rapid, brutal approach (Dama/Lucilla).
  • Points to larger thematic contrasts in patience, method, and ethical ambiguity.

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2. Odrade’s Inspection and Dortujla’s Report (Chapter 17)

Timestamps: [14:28]–[23:28]

• Odrade’s Introspection:

  • Ponders whether the Sisterhood has lost touch with humanity by walling off emotions.
  • “What am I?” and “Who asks that question?”—themes of identity, agency, and control.
    • “All around her, clowns, wild animals and puppets reacted to the pull of hidden strings. She sensed the strings that jerked her into movement.” – [15:31]

• Key Insight:

  • Odrade determines that “Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our Grail of human maturity is meaningless.” – [17:11]
  • Wrestling with the risk of a Pyrrhic victory.

• Dortujla’s Return:

  • Exiled Bene Gesserit brings news: Handlers and futars wish to ally and fight the Honored Matres.
  • Revelation: Futars have handlers (adding complexity to interstellar power dynamics).
  • Honored Matres likely heading to Buzel, a water- and suestone-rich world.

• Odrade’s Improvised Plan:

  • Suggests she will offer herself up for a meeting at the Honored Matre stronghold on Junction (the “spider queen’s lair”).
  • Dortujla’s stunned reaction: “Her pupils dilate, she starts sweating.” [22:11]
  • Humor: “There’s no conference room. The wifi is poor.” – Leo [22:33]

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3. Lucilla’s Final Test and Debate with Dama (Chapter 18)

Timestamps: [23:28]–[30:26]

• Lucilla’s Captivity:

  • Day 17 on Junction; interaction with futar reveals only handlers command obedience, and Honored Matres might be “poisoned” to deter being eaten.

• Verbal Sparring:

  • Lucilla tactically pushes Dama’s patience, using “Bene Gesserit half-truths,” sarcasm, and language games to gather intelligence.

• Political Satire:

  • Lucilla’s mock advice on running a corrupt democracy, which Dama earnestly loves:
    • “The technique is quite subtle, but easy. You create a system where most people are dissatisfied, vaguely or deeply.” – Lucilla [27:33]
    • Parallels to real politics noted by Leo and Abu.

• Tension Explodes:

  • Lucilla fatally oversteps in her needling, and Dama kills her with “a swift kick to the temple.”
    • “Rip to a real one.” – Abu [30:10]

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4. Takeaway: Laws, Regulations, and Herbert’s Philosophy

Timestamps: [30:47]–[61:41]

Main Thesis:

• “Laws enforce the future. Regulations are believed to enforce the past.” – Lucilla [32:03]
• Laws are meant to create change—a promise of a new future; regulations enforce the status quo.

Deep Dive:

• Lucilla critiques both as stagnating, bureaucratic theater (“action is illusory” [35:03]).
• Dama is dismissive, seeing laws/regulations as inevitable, but misses Lucilla’s nuance.
• The Bene Gesserit propose an adaptive, decentralized, jury-style democracy rooted in “a morality above any law,” challenging the rigidity of conventional systems.

Juxtaposition:

• Honored Matres: Top-down, power-wielding, coercive; short-sighted reliance on violence and slavery.
• Bene Gesserit: Patient, adaptable—yet also paralyzed by their own bureaucracy and red tape (10 years to interrogate Scytale vs. Dama’s impatience).
  • “You can only do this if you've got…written permission and bureaucracy and paperwork all to just tap into what you already have internally.” – Leo [51:01]

Key Quotes:

• "Necessary rules and laws keep you from adapting. Inevitably, everything comes crashing down. It's like bankers thinking they buy the future power in my time. To hell with my descendants." – Lucilla [37:14]
• “We believe there’s a morality above any law which must stand watchdog on all attempts at unchanging regulation.” – Lucilla [45:53]

Hosts’ Reflections:

• Leo: Intrigued but recognizes that “nobody yet has the answer”—the book promotes debate, not dogmatic solutions. [52:56]
• Abu: Skeptical of morality-based, non-codified democracy—asks “whose morality?” and points out the scaling issues in diverse societies. [55:30]
• Both connect Herbert’s ideas to real-world governance challenges, Sapiens, and even Watchmen for parallels in unity and collective belief.

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5. Spice Morsels

Timestamps: [63:12]–[74:59]

a. Lemming Myth and Frank Herbert’s Use

• The idea of “lemming behavior” is a myth; lemmings do not commit mass suicide. [63:35]
• The myth originated from the staged 1958 Disney documentary White Wilderness, where lemmings were forced off a cliff.
• Justice for lemmings!
  • “Lemmings: The slander ends today.” – Leo [64:29]
• The phrase persists in language and in Dune, but it’s based on fiction, not fact.

b. “Bourse” Explained

• “Bourse” is a French word meaning a stock exchange, specifically a European stock market. [71:04]
• Frank uses it for cosmopolitan “trading floor” imagery—the Dune universe presumably has its equivalents.
• Fun fact: “Bourse” and “purse” share etymological origins from a Greek word for a coin pouch.
• Tie-in to Dune: Suggests there are Tleilaxu “finance bros” in the Imperium.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "This book is. Today's chapters in particular, really dense. A lot to talk about." – Leo [01:53]
• "I genuinely laughed out loud a couple of times throughout this chapter, including at this moment." – Abu re: Scytale’s arrogance [06:02]
• “Victory at all costs is not victory.” – Abu, on retaining humanity [17:46]
• “It's all theater. It's all an act.” – Abu, on the illusion of law and reform [35:06]
• “Laws be damned. Your jury can just come up with any decision they want, whenever they want.” – Leo [41:17]
• “We're poking fun. It's all in good humor. But there are Tleilaxu finance bros as well. For sure. Guarantee that is canon.” – Leo [74:28]
• “Lemmings: The slander ends today…Justice for those little fellows. They're not just a bunch of cliff hopping dummies.” – Abu & Leo [64:29–64:37]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [04:06] — Start of Chapter Summaries (Scytale’s Whistling, Odrade’s visit)
• [14:28] — Odrade’s Chapter, Dortujla’s Arrival, Honored Matres/Futars plot
• [23:28] — Lucilla’s Captivity, Debate with Dama
• [30:47] — Takeaway: Laws & Regulations in Herbert’s Future
• [63:12] — Spice Morsels: Lemmings & Bourse

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Community Callouts

• Live-chat shout-outs to listeners (“Normalsenva,” “John Curtis”).
• Integration of listener insights to reinforce points, e.g., Scytale’s main character syndrome, Lucilla’s fate reactions.
• Mailbag episode referenced; hosts encourage listener engagement for future shows.

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Tone & Style

The hosts balance serious analysis of Dune’s socio-political philosophy with irreverent, contemporary humor and in-jokes (“Tleilaxu sperm,” “anime season of My Hero,” “finance bros of the Imperium”). They maintain clarity for newcomers by paraphrasing lore and explaining terms, while offering deep-cuts and asides for superfans.

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Summary Takeaways

• The chapters studied offer a masterclass in Herbert’s layering of political philosophy, irony, and world-building.
• Scytale’s continued existence owes to the complex power games and economic bartering of the Sisterhood.
• Odrade acts boldly, improvising against the backdrop of centuries-long Bene Gesserit tradition and risk aversion.
• The central philosophical discussion places law, adaptability, and morality under Herbert’s microscope: flexibility vs. bureaucracy, morality vs. rigidity.
• The culture, myth, and language of Dune are myth-busted and explained with spice morsels for added listener enrichment.

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Next Episode Homework

• Read Chapters 19–21 of Chapterhouse: Dune (through “Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves”).
• Bring questions and cute pet pictures—especially lemmings—for future mailbag episodes.

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Transcript

[Leo]

They say Gom Jabbar hosts can disregard nothing. A meaningless aphorism until you grasp its other significance. We are the servants of all our patrons. They watch their servants with critical eyes. Hopefully only five star reviews. We cannot spend too much time on generalities, nor on spice trivia. Spice morsels. Gam Ja Bar hosts must display insightful action, else a sense of disquiet permeates to the farthest corners of our listenership. So true.

[Abu]

Wise words. Wise words spoken by o'. Draid. Yeah, about podcasting specifically.

[Leo]

Oh, Draid had a lot of thoughts about our production schedule as well.

[Abu]

Yeah, she had notes.

[Leo]

Yeah, she had notes. But they were all good. All great notes. She's the goat for right?

[Abu]

She's the mother. Executive producer for a reason. And so we do what she says. We listen.

[Leo]

Oh, I would accept any advice she has for me.

[Abu]

Just enjoyable. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we are back after coming off of a really fun mailbag episode. Thank you all so much for submitting those lovely questions. We are back today diving into the chapters of the final book by Frank Herbert in the Dune saga.

[Leo]

Yeah, Dune chapter house. What a fucking ride. This book is. Today's chapters in particular, really dense. A lot to talk about. Can't wait. Before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping. Shout out Mapes or some ghola of shout out Mapes is looking at us expectantly from the corner. So, starting off, spoiler warning. Hey, no spoilers. If you are caught up with our book club, you are safe to listen today.

[Abu]

You are indeed. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Reddin Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahanram, and Roger Yo.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. Oh, gets the boiling every time, folks.

[Abu]

If I could come up with a tune and whistle your names as I strolled down the halls of my no ship, I would. I'd be doing it all the time.

[Leo]

Cuisatz Haderach sperm tells no secrets or whatever.

[Abu]

Oh, my God, what a line.

[Leo]

What a line. What a line. New merch coming soon. Yeah. Good Lord. Of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons. No matter how often you whistle, walking around your. Your confinement at every level, who makes this show possible. I mean, it's your support that makes what we do possible.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, a reminder that if you don't have the means to become a monthly Patreon supporter at the moment, that's a. Okay, we get it. Subscription fatigue. It's a real thing. Check out the buy me a coffee link in the description below. That's where you can send us a one time tip to say thank you and show your appreciation.

[Leo]

Indeed. All right, so you all know the game plan for today's episode. This is a book club episode, after all. So we are going to start off with a summary of today's chapters, and then we have a takeaway for you. And then finally, we're going to wrap up with some yummy, yummy spice morsels. But before we do that, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we are back, we are talking about chapter 16.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's begin, as always, with our chapter summaries today beginning with chapter 16.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So in our first chapter today, we join our boy Scytale, the last master of masters in the universe. And he's a whistling. He's a walking through this no ship. And he's reflecting as he's whistling. And a walking. He's reflecting on a recent exchange that he had with Odrade. And as always, these exchanges are full of plans within plans, manipulation within manipulation.

[Leo]

Yeah, always.

[Abu]

Now, part of why he's whistling, we're told, is because he wants to get all of the folks watching him used to the habit. Oh, there he goes again. Side of tail. He's a whistling guy. This is so normal.

[Leo]

Dude loves whistling. It's his favorite.

[Abu]

Dude loves to whistle. Nothing suspicious about it.

[Leo]

Nothing suspicious about it.

[Abu]

But of course, we, the reader, know that there is everything suspicious about it, always. Because his plan is to somehow, someway, make contact with Duncan Idaho and utilize that secret whistling language that we know the Tleilaxu have to control their Golas. We saw this all the way back in Dune Messiah in book two.

[Leo]

There is no goddamn world in which the Bene Gesserit don't already know about this.

[Abu]

Literally. It's been thousands of years. There's no way.

[Leo]

Not a single. You're telling me not a single ghola has ever been, like, on the Bene Gesserit side going, hey, they like, whistle and shit to, like, communicate with us?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Not one. This is ludicrous. Not a single one. The fact that he's like, they've got no fucking dudes out of his league. It's so funny to me.

[Abu]

It's so funny. Yeah, I love the. I love sort of the humorous irony of just the confidence and arrogance dripping out of Scytale here when he is, like, on the back foot. He is losing the only thing he has against the sisterhood right now. And frankly, the only reason this motherfucker is still alive is. Is because he has knowledge about the axolotl tanks that the sisterhood wants.

[Leo]

Right? Spice production.

[Abu]

That's the only chip he has in his pocket. And he's out here thinking, like, I'm going to beat these guys. I'm going to win this whole poker game. I got one chip left. It's crazy. It's actually really funny. I genuinely laughed out loud a couple of times throughout this chapter, including at this moment. We need to talk about this moment.

[Leo]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Abu]

So through Scytel's thoughts as he's musing and whistling, uh, honestly, I didn't consent to this, but we are told that, quote, Tleilaxu sperm does not talk. End quote. Yeah, that's sidetale thinking about how the sisterhood can't just breed Tleilaxu in order to learn all of their secrets. Right, Because Tleilaxu can't tap into other memory. Their. Their genetic memory.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or they have, like, some sort of genetic modification, like permanent shear or like. Yeah, something like that. Sort of blocker.

[Abu]

Yeah. Right.

[Leo]

And it's like. Cool. Gross. Nice. Cool. Thanks.

[Abu]

Right. I didn't want you to tell me that site tale, but now I know. And now I can't stop thinking about Tleilaxu sperm talking.

[Leo]

Meanwhile, do you think Tleilax, who sperm does not talk. It would be a good, like, hat, like, merchandise?

[Abu]

No.

[Leo]

Sweet. I appreciate the honest feedback. Save us both sometime. That's great.

[Abu]

Your ideas are. Usually you're always hitting home runs, but this one I'm going to have to

[Leo]

say maybe we can workshop it next time, listeners.

[Abu]

Okay, let's continue with this chapter summary and actually talk briefly about this meeting that Scytale and Odrade did have. She was on her way to see Mirbella, as she typically is, and on the way, she popped into Scytale's room and talked to him. And as always, this whole conversation was like a game of 5D chess. But in short, Scytale is still making the demands he was making chapters ago about wanting some personal servants, wanting more freedom and access to the information logs on the no ship. Clearly, he hasn't been given any of this yet, and o' draid is not willing to budge. The sisterhood wants more information about the axolotl tanks before they're about to give anything up.

[Leo]

Right? Right.

[Abu]

Nothing will be bartered for free. Ezra says.

[Leo]

Oh, I love that line. She's like, you're talking to me about economics and you want shit for free. All right, cool.

[Abu]

That's not how that works.

[Leo]

Make it make sense, dog. Math's not math.

[Abu]

And that's right. Now, a couple of key moments to call out from this conversation with odrade. At one point, she tells saitale that she intends to, quote, make the honored Matres aware of their mortality. End quote. Because when put in that position, they will quote, truly listen, end quote. Hmm.

[Leo]

Yeah, interesting.

[Abu]

Okay, we're getting a couple more breadcrumbs into whatever odraid's plan is in this book. Right. We know she's cooking something up in the kitchen and this is just another breadcrumb trail. What could she mean by that? Making them aware of their mortality.

[Leo]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Abu]

And overall, I think the vibe of this meeting, it's worth just once again calling out how we're getting almost these mirror chapters throughout this book. We're getting Odrade talking to Murbella, Odrade talking to Scytale in similar ways to how, for example, Dama is speaking to Lucilla or how Dama is having meetings with Rebecca. Right. We're seeing two sides of an interrelated coin and mirror images of the Bene Gesserit and the honored Madres. This book deliberately, both in its writing and its story structure, in its themes, is exploring the similarities and differences between these two groups.

[Leo]

Yeah, like, I mean, really between. Here, Lucilla, here's your meal. Here's some spice. Here's some wine.

[Abu]

And.

[Leo]

And you know what? I'm going to toss in a little favor for you. Here's a pillow. Aren't I kind? Aren't I generous? And here we have, like, the delicious fish meal, the thing. Exactly. That he requested. And then, hey, you want something special? Do you want a little treat? Oh, like a stimulant drink? You want a Red Bull? You want a five hour energy? You know, break me up.

[Abu]

Here's a V8.

[Leo]

Hey, here's a V8. Yeah, it's tomato. It's got a lot of nutrients. It's micronutrients. It's great. It's great for you. And it's like, it's so. And again, I find myself wondering, like, who's the kinder I mean, we'll see, obviously, a new side of Dahmer's relationship with Lucilla in today's reading. But, like, realistically, Scytale's been here for, like, 10 years. Lucilla's on day 17. So even the idea of, like, who's. Who's really the monster. And again and again, I love Odrade. She's the goat. But I think these are the questions that these chapters are meant to have us thinking about comparing. What does it mean to keep someone for 10 years? Always just whittling them down and wearing them down. Even in today's chapter, there are moments when Scytale's going, maybe I just give them what they want. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can't, I can't. Okay. Almost fucked up.

[Abu]

That's Shaitan talking.

[Leo]

No. Yeah, yeah. Better.

[Abu]

Where's my stim?

[Leo]

Where's my stamp? Just. Oh, yeah. Almost gave up there for a second, you know, like, that's. That's 10 years of confinement and containment. So it's like. Yeah.

[Abu]

I love that you pointed out the timeline of these captivities, though, because recall how a couple of takeaways ago, we talked about how the Bene Gesserit almost think in plans that are too long. Like, they're like, here's my 67 step plan to achieve this. Whereas the honored matres are like, I want it now and I want it fast. Get that Uber Eats delivery to my door in 30 minutes or less. And here we see another difference. That's they're whittling away at Scytale for years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Dama can barely whittle away at Lucilla for 17 days before cracking and just killing her. You know, we get another key difference here between these two philosophies.

[Leo]

Dude, that's funny how these funny groups operate. Imagine Balanda and o' Dre talking, and they're like, so what we're going to do is we're going to get information out of him over the next 10 to 30 years. And it's like, can't we speed this shit up just a little bit? It's like, no, no, no. We're going to finally know his, like, mother's maiden name and his birthday. We're going to crack into his Facebook account on year, like, 26.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's like, yeah, it's so cool.

[Abu]

Imagine dating a sister of the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

She's like, are you. Are you down to have kids? How do you feel about kids? And you're like, yeah, you know, I'm in my 30s, I'd love to have kids in the next like three to five years. And she's like, oh, okay, what are you doing in the next 30 to 50 years maybe? What's the timeline?

[Leo]

Are you free the weekend of 2075? You're like, I'm not equipped for this. Long term planning. That's crazy,

[Abu]

incredible stuff. Okay, to wrap up chapter 16 in the present day, we've been joking about it this whole time. But Scytale takes a hit of his stim pen, he settles into his chair and he begins. This is hilarious. He begins to write the obituary for the Bene Gesserit for when he defeats them. My man is manifesting. You gotta give it to him.

[Leo]

I will say there was a great comment in our live chat today. Normalsenva wrote, that's the power of faith. He was preserved from calamity by God, who obviously has grand plans for him and protects him. Excellent shout out, Normal Sinva. He has, like main character syndrome to the nth degree. He's like, dog, I got plot armor for days. Nothing's touching me. I'm going to come out on top. As he, like takes a hit of his, like, THC vape, he's like, oh, yes. Everything's coming up all side tail.

[Abu]

That's right. I got that Odrade lady on the ropes, baby. It's so funny. I found this chapter quite hilarious. I also want to call out John Curtis in the live chat today. John writes, sidetail is whistling Lose Yourself by Eminem. And that's perfect. That's canon now.

[Leo]

Well, that carries us into our next chapter. Chapter 17 is such a fucking doozy.

[Abu]

This is crazy.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's so long, but it's so good. There's a lot to talk about. We are with Odrade again, and she's doing her daily inspections of Chapter House. But there are some major shifts in what's happening at any given moment in this chapter. So to cover them first, we have the kind of first third of the chapter. Odrade is moving about Chapter House. She's pondering Bene Gesserit conscience and questions if the Bene Gesserit have ultimately lost touch with their humanity. After all, being human begins, as she points out, with feeling it in your guts. And the Bene Gesserit have walled themselves off from many of those types of experiences. You don't want to feel anything. Feelings, emotions are only allowed in small doses and only when they're, like, productive, quote unquote, or, like, useful. And that's not really a human way to live.

[Abu]

Yep. Yep.

[Leo]

Now, she also has this moment where she asks, what am I? Right. And when she asks that, then she has a secondary question of who asks that question? Who even asks, who what am I? Right. And this renders a universe where nothing is quite human. Here's the quote. All around her, clowns, wild animals and puppets reacted to the pull of hidden strings. She sensed the strings that jerked her into movement. End quote. And I love that. Right? We have the Bene Gesserit, that kind of narrow definition of what humanity is. What does it mean to be human?

[Abu]

I also found it interesting that in the next chapter, Lucilla is very quick to mark Dhamma and the Honored Matre as not human.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's all very intentional, right? She's going, dhamma's not human. I've seen. When we were. When we were writing up this script, I was seeing conversations on Reddit and the Jack Haruto website of people going, wait, so are the Honor Matre not human? I'm confused. And the response is, no, no, no. This is the Bene Gesserit headspace of what does it mean to be human? And clearly the Honored Matre are no longer part of that. But Lucilla, who is sometimes the most fallible Bene Gesserit character we've ever ridden sidesaddle with, may also not recognize that she is a part of that as well, that she is also not human because she has fallen into the dogma of the Bene Gesserit, no longer living in that kind of here and now immediacy that is part of being human.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

Now, she does acknowledge. Oh. Draid acknowledges that the Bene Gesserit would not go so far as to divert or obstruction Leto's Golden Path, which is.

[Abu]

I liked this a lot.

[Leo]

Really interesting. And I loved this quote. Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our Grail of human maturity is meaningless. End quote. Really powerful, which is fascinating. I mean, of course, that works on the macro scale. You can't have Bene Gesserit aspirations if humanity goes extinct. But also on a micro scale, what does it mean to succeed in your aims if you've abandoned your humanity?

[Abu]

Right. Is it worth the almost Pyrrhic victory? Right.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

If saving humanity means losing your humanity, is it worth it? And I think as far as a Drait sees it, the answer is no. That victory at all costs is not victory. We have to still retain our humanity. And something that o' Draid clearly from these thoughts we're learning, is afraid that the Bene Gesserit have lost touch with.

[Leo]

Right. So I also love this moment where Balanda. She runs into Balanda coming out of, like, one of the mnemonic tubes or whatever they use to get around Chapter House. And Balanda's like, you look strange. You doing good. And she's like, yeah, yeah, whatever. She, like, leaves. She's, like, fully dodges Balanda. I thought that was very funny. And then she gets back to her study, and she's got all this shit on her desk right now. As she works through this giant pile of the, like, Reverend Mother Superior's responsibilities, she's thinking about the Golden Path. She's thinking about the Bene Gesserit role in Leto's plans and this. This, like, predator prey game that the Bene Gesserit are playing with the Honored Matre. At the end of the day, the most important thing is that the Bene Gesserit avoid giving the Honored Matre any hint at all as to the location of Chapter House.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, along those lines, it is then even more surprising when an exiled Reverend Mother Dortujla shows up, and she even has a moment of, like, wow. She risked showing people where Chapter House is. What is her message? What has she got? And, folks, Dartuzula has fucking a banger message. I mean, she's got so much intel, she's great. Also, get me a book about Dortushla. I love this character. She's great. Tell me about her love affair. Tell me about her exile on this planet rife with smugglers. I'm a huge fan of smugglers. You all know that.

[Abu]

For real?

[Leo]

That would be so sick. Anyway, Dortugla shows up, and O'Drade lets her in, and she goes, listen, I've been approached by futars by, like, 16 Futars and four handlers who are like, we want to ally ourselves with the Bene Gesserit to fight the Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Get us in touch with your boss. Crazy. And she has some, like, prime intel. Like, we learn a crazy amount about Futarus in this chapter, including that they have handlers. We'll learn from Lucilla's chapter that the handlers can give them insane commands, and they'll just do it like, they are loyal to their handlers. And this kind of lines up. If the handlers are the ones who kind of guide the. The Futars, this sort of lines up with the broader image that we're getting that the Futars hunt the Honored Matre that the Honored Matre's biggest enemy is the ones of many faces. So maybe there is this sort of like scattering located battle between the handlers, their futars, and the honored madre, who then capture the futars away from their handlers. Or maybe usurp the handlers individually or something like that.

[Abu]

Exactly right.

[Leo]

So the prospect of, like, partnering with this small band of futars aside, Dortushla also reveals she has a mentat calculation that the Honored Matre are going to be showing up on Buzel soon. Because this is a water rich planet. It's a very water. Yeah, it's just a lot of water on the planet. And it's rich in sue stones, which have come up a few times.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Well, the chapter ends as Odrade hits Tooge hits the Touj with a truly baffling plan. Genuinely, it seems like she's just fucking coming up with this, by the way. She's, like, reacting in the moment. She's like, okay, okay, so the Honor Matre are gonna be on Burzel soon. You're there. Okay, here's an idea. You're gonna be bait for the Honored Matre, and when they find you, you can tell them that you were sent into exile, but that you can arrange a meeting with me and them, and I'm going to give them the Bene Gesserit. And Dortushla, like, vomits a little. Her pupils dilate, she starts sweating. She's like, what the fuck are you?

[Abu]

Screaming, laughing, Crying.

[Leo]

Yeah, throwing up. All of them, every emoji. And o' Draid goes, no, no, I'm not planning on actually giving up the Bene Gesserit. But it's pretext for meeting them. Dertouchel's like, yeah, but like, Burzel kind of sucks for meetings. There's no, like, conference room. The wifi is poor. You know, it's not a good place for, like, a corporate, you know, merger meeting.

[Abu]

Right. We use teams out there. We don't even know what Zoom is.

[Leo]

Oh, God. Oh, no. Yeah, terrible. And Odrade is like, no, no, no. I'll go to their stronghold on Junction.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

And the Mother Superior. The Mother Superior is going to go into the. Into the Spider Queen's fucking lair. Insane suggestion. And again, this is apparently brand new, just hot off the presses of her improvisational mind and is going to take a lot of planning. So Odrade's like, hey, let's call some room service. Let's order some sweet Treats. Have lunch with me, Tuj, and let's get to work. And that's where the chapter ends.

[Abu]

Insane. I cannot wait to see this plan play out.

[Leo]

They both shotgun a Miller like, and they put their heads down to get some work done. It's crazy.

[Abu]

All right, chapter 18. Let's blast through this one, because we're going to be revisiting a lot of ideas in 18 in our takeaway later.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So in our final chapter, today we join Lucilla, who is on day 17 of her captivity here on Junction.

[Leo]

I wonder how much longer she's going to survive.

[Abu]

Careful. Don't put any money down.

[Leo]

Yep. Think about it. Place your bets.

[Abu]

Now, as the chapter begins, Great Honored Matre is on her way to the room to have another one of these random meetings that she loves to have with the captured Bene Gesserit Lucilla. And while she's waiting for the Great Honored Mantra to arrive, Lucilla gets a chance to speak with the caged futar that's also just always in the room with her, apparently.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And through this brief conversation with this futar, we learn a couple more key details about them. Like you mentioned earlier, we learned that the futar only take commands from their handler. Lucilla tests this by saying, hey, when Dama walks in here, how about you kill her and eat her? And the futar doesn't say no, but also says, are you my handler? I'll. I'll only accept that command from my handler, basically. We also learned that the futar is hesitant to eat the Great Honored Mantra because apparently Dama's flesh is quote, unquote poisoned, whatever that means. Lucilla hasn't. Lucilla doesn't quite puzzle together what that could mean, but it seems like Dama and maybe some other Honored Matre who interact with Fu Taor have some sort of defense mechanism against Futa getting eaten by them. Now, Dhamma arrives at the room, and we basically immediately see once again that the Great Honored Mantra seems well out of her depth at the negotiation table. She does not know how to negotiate or to speak the same quote unquote language as a Bene Gesserit sister, no matter how hard she tries. And in fact, throughout this conversation, Lucilla is, like, goading and taunting the Great Honored Mantra. She's hitting her with these, like, sarcastic responses and Bene Gesserit half truths, really testing Dhamma and pushing her patience. All throughout the conversation, they talk about a number of different topics. In particular, they talk about the general idea of politics and whether or not the Bene Gesserit have a government? Do the Bene Gesserit have democracy or not? That's a big point in the conversation here. And throughout this back and forth, Lucilla is carefully analyzing Dama's reactions to certain words and phrases and also to certain ideas that she brings up and presents basically to gather what intel she can about the head of the Honored Matres and the larger organization as well.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

The interrogation also winds and weaves its way through a number of Very classic Leto 2/Frank Herbert favorites when it comes to themes and ideas. We touch on bureaucrats, we touch on rebels, we touch on scapegoats. Obviously, we touch on the idea of charismatic leaders. These are all things we've unpacked time and time again in our read through of Frank's books and our exploration of this universe. And these ideas once again come up here in this conversation. Near the end of the conversation, having understood Dharma's views on democracy, specifically Lucilla, I found this really interesting and funny. Lucilla launches into this, like, over the top description of how to basically run an extremely corrupt democratic government. And Dahmer is like, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's do that. Hell yeah. Here's a bit of what Lucilla says. The technique is quite subtle, but easy. You create a system where most people are dissatisfied, vaguely or deeply. End quote.

[Leo]

Insane. And also, yeah, I mean that. God. Okay. Don't want to get too political, but man, I've heard some conversations recently about like, how do you keep people from really organizing and opposing tyrannical rule? And it's like, keep them hungry, keep them infighting, keep them divided, keep their attention and focus on something other than who's really the one with their boot on your neck, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah, give them scapegoats.

[Leo]

Give them scapegoats. Yeah.

[Abu]

And Dama is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Plus one. Plus one to that idea.

[Leo]

I love it.

[Abu]

Let's do it.

[Leo]

Yeah, we, we. We do do that. Totally.

[Abu]

I love escape. Go.

[Leo]

Scapegoats. Are I. I was just saying this to Lagna the other day.

[Abu]

The other day I was like, lagna, babe, we need to know there's grape goat out there.

[Leo]

My favorite thing. Okay, where do I buy scapegoats, by the way? Do they eat alfalfa? How do you feed a scapegoat?

[Abu]

So I've. I found that that bit of teasing from Lucilla really interesting. But the teasing does go too far because at the end of the chapter, Lucilla realizes that she has made a fatal mistake in pushing the Great Honored Mantra, who she has just been calling Dhamma this whole time, by the way.

[Leo]

It's. It's so funny because she. I also, I picked this up on like, during Scytale's chapter because Odrade is like, master Scytale. And he's like, yes. And she's like, scytale. And he's like, oh, she didn't call me Master that time. Yeah, like the names they call people, it's all very, very intentional. So the number of times that Lucilla is like, dama, she's like, don't fucking call me Dharma. And then like two, two pages later, she's like, so what about this Dama? She's like, yeah, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Completely oblivious to the fact that she was just called Dharma. Like, I mean, she does at the end call it out that she's like, you called me Dhamma and like, fuck you. But. But still very interesting to see the kind of intentionality around. What are the. What's the language we're using to address you?

[Abu]

Yeah, but like you said at the end, she calls it out. She's like, all right, Lucilla, babe, you've been calling me Dhamma this whole time. It's great. Honored Mod train to you. But it doesn't matter because I've had enough with this fucking conversation. And I've had enough of you.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And with a swift kick to the temple, our girl Lucilla lies dying in captivity as the pent up emotions of the Lampada's horde within her mind echo and scream out at the end of this chapter, rip to a real one.

[Leo]

I mean, we say it now, but like, if she shows up in three chapters, I'm gonna be so pissed again. Cause I feel like we've already poured one out for Lucilla like six times. I think she is dead. I'm pretty sure she's dead.

[Abu]

This one feels like a permanent one.

[Leo]

Yeah, this one feels like a permanent one.

[Abu]

I don't think we're getting an anime comeback here. This is it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, those are our chapters. Oh, my God. So we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. But when we're back, we're going to talk about laws in the future. An idea taken from this very chapter.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's get into our takeaway for today and let's stay within chapter 18 because we're going to be talking about a topic that Lucilla and Dahme touch on all throughout Their conversation. So most of chapter 18, frankly reads like a classroom lecture with Professor Herbert on political bureaucracy. But I, for one, would love to attend this class. Yeah, same, because there are some incredibly juicy ideas here. This chapter really got my wheel spinning. And in particular the one that you and I decided we wanted to dig deeper on in our takeaway today is the idea of laws and regulations. This is an idea that Lucilla and Dhamma keep returning to over and over again throughout their conversation. And we think it's worth pausing and exploring it a little bit further and picking apart what they're getting at. And to start, I think it's helpful to just begin with a thesis statement. And helpfully, Lucilla summarizes the thesis statement for Dhamma and us as the reader. And this is the key idea here. Quote, laws enforce the future. Regulations are believed to enforce the past. End quote.

[Leo]

Fascinating already. So cool. Love it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Even just reading that sentence, I immediately was thinking about like, yeah, I guess so. Because you regulate the existing and then you codify law based on case by at least the way that it works here in the us it's like you have laws that you form based on one off instances of new things happening. And then you're kind of anticipating what does tomorrow look like and what do we want things to look like moving forward? So I really, I love that distinction. I think it's super interesting and definitely is worth chewing on a bit.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now, of course, Dhamma insists that that's bullshit. Laws and regulations are just a thing. They're inevitable. Every human society from the dawn of time has come together to form laws and regulations to run their societies. She hand waves this away. She says this is a thing that has always been and always will be. But Lucilla disagrees. She sees both laws and regulations as creating political stagnation. She sees them as these restrictive tools that fail to understand the realities of human existence and the necessity for adaptability and change. For example, Lucilla explains that laws, quote, convey the myth of enforced change. A bright new future will come because of this law or that one.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Kind of laying out the train tracks of what we want the future to be.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh. The false promises of governance. Right. Like, I can very much feel Frank's cynicism and his exhaustion with politics there. Yeah. The idea of like the government going, oh, oh, oh. You know what we needed? The last squeaky wheel that we need to fix is this law was missing. And now Utopia. We did it, folks. We are good forever. And he's like, these fucking liars.

[Abu]

Right? Put up the victory, victory flag on the battleship and get the President out there. We did it.

[Leo]

That's so good.

[Abu]

On the flip side of laws, there's regulations. Right?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And Lucilla explains that regulations are there to protect the status quo. They maintain existing structures and existing processes, thus preserving the past. So laws lay out this train track of the future. Regulations say, hey, we don't need airplanes. We got train tracks. Keep laying them out. Stay in the past. Don't push toward a new, unknown future.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

And as Lucilla, and by extension the Bene Gesserit see this, these are merely tools of a bureaucratic government used to keep up appearances to make it look like they're doing something useful. Right. The pat on the back. We've done it. We solved the squeaky wheel, as you just said, Leo.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

Lucilla says, quote, in each instance, action is illusory. End quote.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

It's all theater. It's all an act.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're creating laws and so we're fixing things. And as long as we commit to these laws, we've done it. We fixed the thing. And Lucilla is saying, that is just not how reality works. That is now not how human existence works.

[Leo]

I mean, point in case, she brings up later proctors, the jury of the Bene Gesserit legal system who are able to make any decision regardless of any. Because it's like, yeah, a case by case approach is really the only way to deal with the unknown future at the end of the day. But this is also, I think, again, the whole book is juxtaposing the Bene Gesserit with the Honor Matre.

[Abu]

And.

[Leo]

And so then we have Dhamma, Right. And Dhamma's kind of reactions to a lot of this. And by extension, she is the head of the Honor Matre, so the Oner Matre. Of course, they don't use politics this way. Very early on. She doesn't even distinguish between regulation and writing law.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

She's like, they're the same. And Lucilla's like, oh, babe. Okay, all right.

[Abu]

I guess we're going back to 101. Damn.

[Leo]

Okay, sorry, I think I was talking at like a. Yeah, junior level. You're a freshman. My bad. I'll scale it back a bit. But for them, it's like, it is purely top down bureaucracy. It is.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I'm at the top. And my power, my influence, my fear, all of that stuff. The literally in Rebecca's chapter where dumbas have to, like, Be this, like, haughty. I have all the answers. Fuck you for even looking at me. That's her Persona.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And here with the Lucilla chapters, we're getting much more of her. Like, wait, I'm confused. Go back. Are you fucking with me? Okay, no.

[Abu]

Her insecurities.

[Leo]

Her insecurities are much more on display. She's not as much like I am. All powerful. And if you question me, I'm gonna kick you in the neck. We're seeing that political theater play out. That is how they maintain their control. And that's the only way they know how to govern. And that's also why they need the Bene Gesserit science, as they call it, which is, I think, kind of just all of your nuance and like the. The way you do things. We don't have that and we need it.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Lucilla, of course, calls out that short sighted way of thinking. Right? Quote. Necessary rules and laws keep you from adapting. Inevitably, everything comes crashing down. It's like bankers thinking they buy the future power in my time. To hell with my descendants. End quote. Again, Frank's frustration with people really seeping

[Abu]

out from here for real, really bleeding through here.

[Leo]

I also wanted to point out there's a quote in Odrade's chapter when she's talking to the Touj where she says, this is the quote. It was a pattern. The Sisterhood had long recognized the inevitable failure of slavery and pannage. You created a reservoir of hate, implacable enemies. If you had no hope of exterminating all of these enemies, you dared not try. End quote. Right. This is the Bene Gesserit recognizing that top down bureaucracies and slavery are not a solution you actually can use ever.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Like, period. Meanwhile, the fucking Honor Matre have, like, amphibian slaves and futar slaves and handler slaves. And they're all kind of slaves to whoever's on top. Like, they're like slavery upon slavery upon slavery. They've got so much slavery. And the Benny Jesuit are like, yeah, you never. Yeah, that is a failure. It's not going to succeed.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And Lucilla explains this in this chapter, right? She says through consolidating power in that way, you will inevitably result in backlash and rebellion. Like, that's just a. That's math. That's going to happen.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

As people begin to resent and then ignore laws, they go, you're trying to control us in a way that we don't vibe with.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

That's just how things work.

[Abu]

And it's shortsighted. It Might be the solution now. Yeah, it might look like you're winning now, Honored Madre, because your overwhelming military might is taking over much of the Imperium and enslaving many of these people. But is that going to work in 200 years? What's the plan in 300 years? Are you just going to keep enslaving people militarily forever? That's never going to work. That is what Lucilla is trying to explain to Dhamma here. And Dhamma seems ignorant of that fact or seems aware of it, but seems unable to chart a path forward. And thus, one needs, as you said, the Bene Gesserit science. She. She wants to make sure the Honored Matre are around in 200 years. She doesn't know how to do that. All she knows how to do is win wars and subjugate people. Kick them in the temple.

[Leo]

Hence these conversations.

[Abu]

Hence these conversations. Yeah, exactly. Now, those are some of the criticisms that Lucilla has of what Dhamma is doing and laws and regulations and Dhamma's way of thinking. On the flip side of things, Lucilla loosely presents an alternative form of democracy. Something that isn't your way of doing things, Dhamma. Something that doesn't require restrictive and stagnant laws and regulations. This is a form of democracy that is more decentralized and it's adaptable. It can ride along with the currents of humanity as the needs change, as times change, so can the Bene Gesserit democracy. So can the Bene Gesserit machine. That's why we've been here for so long. And we're gonna be here forever, baby. We're not going anywhere.

[Leo]

We're not going anywhere. Fuck that. Yeah, the D Wolf of Wall Street.

[Abu]

Yeah, the Wolf of Wall street guy. So, for example, you brought up the Brock Proctor thing earlier, but Lucilla explains how these proctors, these Bene Gesserit proctors are a type of jury that can, quote, arrive at any decision they desire. The way a jury should function. The law be damned. End quote. Yeah, and that's crazy. Talk to Dahmer.

[Leo]

She's like, what the fuck?

[Abu]

Hold the phone. Laws be damned. Your jury can just come up with any decision they want, whenever they want.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

That's a pretty radical idea. And I myself had a similar reaction to Dahmer's here. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Frank Herbert hit the brakes for a second. What are you talking about? And I think that's quite intentional from Frank's part. It is a bit of a Shocking statement from Lucilla. But this is the type of democracy that the Bene Gesserit are proposing.

[Leo]

Part of this might also come down to the fact that the Bene Gesseritis, the relationship between the Bene Gesserit collective and the Bene Gesserit individuals is an alien one to us. Because every Bene Gesserit individual who is a Reverend Mother is in some ways the Bene Gesserit collective. Right. Like, the individuals carry with them the history of all those who came before them. It's all there. And they have within them many different voices and many different perspectives and all these different things. Right. So having one proctor who can be like, yeah, but this law doesn't apply in this situation, so we're gonna do X, Y and Z. Right. That sounds especially crazy, you know, with the perspective of like, 20, 25, the US and like, courts. But realistically, like, we have situations where a jury of someone's peers might be like, yeah, you technically did the thing, the crime according to the letter of the law, but, like, you're fine. Yeah, yeah, we get it, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah. You know, Leo, it really made me think of the exhalation short story that we covered in our Ted Chang episode, the Truth of Fact, the Truth of Feeling.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

Where we witness a court case happen among Tajingi's people who don't have written history. They only have oral history. And so they don't have, like, written laws that buy the books, buy the letter. You have to follow. Their court cases are more about settling what is best now for everyone, for the tribe and for the people involved, for the defendants and the plaintiffs, regardless of what might have happened in previous court cases. So they're very fluid in that way. Right. It very much reminded me of this Bene Gesserit proctor way of thinking that we have to be fluid and adaptable. Human needs might change. The law that we followed in the last 10 court cases maybe doesn't apply here, and the best option is to not do what the law says.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so, I don't know, it just made me think of that Chang's short story quite a bit.

[Leo]

No, that's a great call out. Because again, even the idea of, like, what is reality? And for teaching his people, it's like he remembers that he is of this people and this is why that is offensive to him. And you go, but he's not of those people. And it's like, but that's not real to him right now. Like, what's real to him is that he has this feeling and this. This.

[Abu]

Yeah, that truth of.

[Leo]

Yeah, that truth of feeling. And realistically, if you just said yeah, but your. Your truth of feeling doesn't mean shit according to the letter of the law. That's how you get tension and rebellion and rebels. And that's because it's like whether or not Leto was right in doing what he did with the Golden Path doesn't change the truth of Siona's feelings when it came to Ku Tag and her other slow ass friends who died to those wolves. You know, like, the truth of her feelings where like, yeah, but also, fuck you all right. Like, yeah, yeah, okay. Golden Path. I saw the most of it of anyone ever, but fuck you, man. Like, seriously.

[Abu]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[Leo]

Melt into a pile of fish. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

So zooming out and to wrap up and land this ornithopter here, it's pretty clear that Lucilla's political beliefs align quite strongly with Frank Herbert's views against big government, centralized bureaucracies, many of the big ideas we've always talked about with Franklin, and here through Lucilla in this chapter, Frank is essentially arguing that genuine governance requires flexibility and imagination and the ability to respond to present needs. As we're talking about that Jingi story, the Bene Gesserit proctors, and that is a radical idea, but it is an attractive idea. And I think it is something that Frank genuinely believed. As you said, much of his cynicism with politics really bleeds through in this chapter. In particular, it's quite a cynical chapter when you realize this is Frank Herbert critiquing modern democracy in the US at least at the time. And to kind of wrap it up, I wanted to end on another statement that Lucilla makes that I think touches on this idea. She says, quote, we believe there's a morality above any law which must stand watchdog on all attempts at unchanging regulation. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's a really interesting point. The idea that, like, we're talking about laws and the danger of unchanging regulations. You're trying to affect the past and you're not changing those regulations. But above all of that, there is this morality. There's this like, idea of, of what is right and wrong that kind of floats above it all. And that is the watchdog that keeps everything else in check. And that's an interesting concept.

[Abu]

It's an interesting concept.

[Leo]

It's also kind of an acknowledgement that the best laid, the best intended regulations and laws may have missed the mark. And that's where you have to adjust and fix Based on what? Well, morality, like pro social behavior, or what God says is right or wherever you denote your moral compass.

[Abu]

Right. So to put a bow on things, I'm actually curious, what do we think of this idea that Frank Lucilla is putting forth here to Dhamma? These ideas about laws and regulations, do you agree, Leo? And is the alternative form of democracy that Lucilla posits, do you see that as plausible and necessary?

[Leo]

Well, okay, as I mentioned, I love that juxtaposition of like future versus past and the sort of like government's attempts at handling both. And kind of these are the tools that they have. Laws versus regulations. And like, what are the guide rails we want to lay for tomorrow? That's an interesting way to think about the law. Like, that's just interesting. And I never once thought about it in those terms.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I enjoy how Lucilla's warnings about laws, considering the idea that they are now, we could call them an attempt to regulate what the future looks like, or an attempt to like, shape the future. Her warnings about those laws run parallel to the sorts of warnings you would give to someone like Paul or Leto, who is attempting to shape the future.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I think that's really interesting. And I had not put that really together. You know, you need to be wary of these pitfalls, grasping too tightly, that sort of thing. Yeah. Now, along those lines, the idea of smaller, more agile communities of kind of governing and governed sounds a little bit like Frank's proposal of the Golden Path. Or the idea of what he sees as kind of a long term successful strategy, along the lines of Odrade's thoughts in our second chapter today. Quote, you. She's speaking to Leto too, kind of abstractly. You knew the human universe could never be more than communities and weak glue binding us when we scattered a common birth tradition so far away in our past that pictures of it carried by descendants are mostly distorted, end quote. Yeah, the idea that, like, what does the future look like post scattering? Like, what did Leto envision for humanity? Well, communities, small, you know, not one centralized tyrant, governing over everything, but fractured. That is what the future of humanity looks like. This also lines up, I think, a little bit with. We're fresh on the heels of this interviews with Frank episode where we talked about techno peasantry. The idea of him returning to these smaller communities doesn't really work at scale, but works for smaller artist collectives or your author retreat in the fucking Himalayas or whatever.

[Abu]

Yeah, communes.

[Leo]

I think technology includes the idea of government and laws. And the idea then of saying, should we instinctively reach for government and laws as a solution to every problem. No, definitely not. And sometimes, techno peasantry, we should be more intentional about how we utilize technology. After you've had a wet night in the. In the rain and you've eaten, like, a shitty breakfast, are you going to reach for legalities or are you going to reach for a space heater? Like, what are we carrying with us into tomorrow?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So I don't know. All of this is kind of rambly, but I think the Bene Gesserit have figured out something that works well enough for many of their goals. But as they look toward the future of humanity, they're having to change in a way fundamentally that they're not comfortable with. So no matter how high of a horse, Lucilla's on, it doesn't. She doesn't have all the answers. They haven't figured out that silver bullet yet. And generally, as we've talked about. I love your point about. Scytale's been in interrogations for 10 years. They're at such a fucking slow snail's pace. Everything they do, they have too much regulation. Again, from Odrade's chapter quote, reverend Mothers were supposed to dig into other memory this way, only with Chapter House permission, and then only with guidance and support from Companion Sisters. End quote. Dog, you have, like, so much red tape everywhere. It's like, you can only do this if you've got. We've given you written permission and bureaucracy and paperwork all to just tap into what you already have internally.

[Abu]

And it takes a sister like the Touj to be exiled from that system, to break away from that red tape and that dogma and tradition.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And find her own way to new ground, to new ways of thinking.

[Leo]

Right. Oh, it's so poignant. And Tuj shows up and Odrade's like, you fucking rock. You're so cool. Oh, I love you. So this idea of continuing to put on a pedestal, I think that's also where. I don't think Frank, in this conversation between Lucilla and Dama, who both have incomplete pictures of what government could look like, I think Frank is more broadly going, nobody yet has the answer. And that's where even o' Draid, with her Belanda and her Tomalanes, sees someone like the Tuj coming out of nowhere, left field, and goes, ah, shit, she's so cool. She collects old coins. Oh, that's so sick. You have an authentic Greek coin, PSA 10 Greek coin, and you're like, God, that's so cool. So, yeah, I don't know. I think, as always, I love to see that Frank is kind of having this debate within his own universe and allowing it to be not necessarily super clean. And like, this is the answer, and this is what I think the answer is. I don't know. I don't get a strong thesis from him because even Lucilla is shown to be wrong sometimes. And then she ends this chapter getting kicked in the head and dying. So it's like, is he super endorsing the one who gets kicked in the head and dies? I'm not. It's hard to say. So that's kind of where my head's at with all of this. Again, it's such a dense chapter. There's so much to pick through. But there is. What about you? When it comes to this, his laws versus regulations and the ideas that Lucilla's presenting, are they kind of plausible, do you think? How are you feeling after this chapter?

[Abu]

I'm feeling a little bit skeptical of these ideas. I think there are some interesting things that we talked about in our takeaway. Right. The laws and regulations, laws applying to the future, regulations holding up a stagnant past that's really interesting and I think quite applicable and something that certainly all democracies should be wary of. There's some really meaningful insight there from Lucilla slash Frank on these political ideas. But I don't know that I completely buy the very hazy, I'll admit picture that Lucilla has painted of a new type of democracy. A democracy where laws be damned. Right? We can do what we need to because it'll feel right. That truth of feeling. I'm a bit skeptical. And the thing that kind of raises the red flag for me is the morality line that Lucilla says. We believe in a morality above the laws. And for me the natural response to that then is whose morality? Because that assumes a certain level of homogeneity that the group that's being governed under this new type of democracy all follows, or has agreed upon a generally similar morality. What do you do with disagreements when it comes to that morality? What do you do with different types of tradition or religion? I don't think this type of democracy presented here from Lucilla applies to very diverse, heterogeneous communities. Like, maybe this is too square and boring of me, but I do think as long as laws are flexible and are written in a way to be interpretive, which many laws are, obviously that is where many disagreements in the court of law come from. It's how to interpret a certain language in a written law. Yeah, I think interpretation is valid, but I do think some sort of written, codified law is necessary to basically fight against, like, base human instinct. Like, the ideas presented here from Frank and Lucilla feel a bit too idealistic to me and seem to lack, again, the scale that we talked about in our interviews with Frank episode about Techno Peasantry. It seems to not take into consideration just the realities of human shortcomings at scale. Human differences at scale. I'm just a little bit hung up on the. Whose morality are we then agreeing to?

[Leo]

Yeah, so something that I almost jotted down here, but in the book Sapiens, it talks about how we as a species went from being able to get along with 150 or so of us to having sitting of millions. And part of that is the collective myth, right? The collective myth of something like morality. Because morality doesn't fucking exist. There's no such thing as morality. So how do you choose to define it? And everyone does define it, because that's the world we live in. Everyone has a kind of an idea of what morality is. And maybe that morality is given by your Abrahamic God. Maybe it's given by the culture and the laws of your country that you were raised in.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But I think what the Bene Gesserit have attempted to do is they've established an idea of Bene Gesserit purpose, which is, we aim to mature humanity and that is our morality. I think what they would have done as an order, and we don't get this explicitly anywhere, but from like, Teg's thoughts in Heretics, where he goes, say what you will about the Bene Gesserit, but they do display a. Like a. What was it, A consistency of purpose or something.

[Abu]

Right, yeah. Tag said that, I think.

[Leo]

And I think that that would be how you deal with what is good for humanity and what is good for the sisterhood. And a sisterhood above all, is the sort of like, moral declaration and thesis, I think, for the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Maybe that's what their unifying morality is, is sisterhood above all. But even o' Draid questions that in this book, where she's going, but what is the point if we've lost our humanity along this pursuit of that abstract morality? Like, what is the point? Why are we here? What are we doing? So I don't know. I hear you and I think you're absolutely right that at the scale of diversity, when we're talking about thousands, millions, billions, trillions of people, the idea of morality is so squishy. And I Don't think that we on Earth today have anything that can really unify people. Because even in conversations about the Middle east, people will say, yeah, but like, children shouldn't be starving in Gaza and 40% of Americans are like, well, like, maybe. Maybe the child's a terrorist. And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Abu]

Right. Those two moralities, quote, unquote, exist, like within the same governmental system of the United States. So, yeah, so, yeah, I guess, you know, I think there are, There is validity to Frank's idea. I'm not saying, like, everything Lucilla said in this chapter, I actually, really, really think it's important. But I just don't buy Frank's proposition that decentralized small communities is the way forward. Especially because it doesn't feel like that happens unless those communities are really divided among, like, racial lines and cultural lines and ethnic lines. Because you have to have some level of homogeneity for this vision that Frank proposes to like, exist. And we just don't live in societies like that. We live in cities and countries and states with millions and billions of diverse thought. And you need some sort of centralized law upon which to then debate from, I guess, is what I'm arguing.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is worth acknowledging that this is still 30,000 years in the future, and we are in the span of 30,000 years. We are still a very young global species.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So you're right that today we don't really have that many great examples of that. That is, again, the Sapiens book argues adamantly that is the function of religion. Saying Jesus motivates people to work together, even if their skin is a different color or they're from different backgrounds or whatever. Right now, again, this is a byproduct of like, violent colonialism. But nevertheless, today I think we are getting to what we are we now have in the last few hundred years. We have examples of people who don't look at all alike, who have no culture in common, who do have something that motivates them to work together or collaborate. And I think in 10,000 years, 30,000 years, who knows? Especially once we leave the planet, like once we leave Earth, what does humanity look like at that point? I really like the Dune Encyclopedia's points about what happens to earthly religions once we leave the planet. I think I could see a world in which some of this stuff is very practical and realistic if we are so far removed from the old Terra, the lines that divide us today. But it's also true that today it's Hard to imagine any of this working.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. It's tough to see the end state. I think Norma Senva said this in the chat as well somewhere. Norma said in the way that aspects of a libertarian society are appealing, so is Frank's idealized society. But for me, I can't see the path from here to there. The change would have to be slow, and maybe 30,000 years is how slow that change needs to be.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's possible. Or again, like any kind of change, sometimes it's punctuated by some huge thing. Right. Osmandias in the Watchmen decides to unite humanity and get rid of global borders by introducing an alien that wipes out millions.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And he says, hey, this is how we unite humanity. We say Dr. Manhattan is the. Is the villain now.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And Dr. Manhattan's like, he's really good. I guess I lose.

[Abu]

But even that. Did you watch the TV show? Because then the TV show complicates that in some interesting ways.

[Leo]

I did watch the TV show, but I don't remember it as well as I remember the comic, which I read a couple of times.

[Abu]

Yeah, no, your point definitely stands. But I think the TV show is actually really excellent because it goes in and asks, okay, but did that work? Was Ozymandias right? And I think it complicates that question of did this unite humanity or not in some really interesting ways. Highly recommend the TV show. Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, okay.

[Abu]

Big ideas.

[Leo]

Yeah, big ideas. Dune, baby.

[Abu]

Yeah. What are we originally here to talk about?

[Leo]

Yeah. Dune, I think. I don't know. Ted Chang it.

[Abu]

Let's just talk anime.

[Leo]

Let's just talk anime.

[Abu]

Dude. That final season of My Hero is Fire.

[Leo]

Dude, the animation's unbelievable. Holy. I've been watching people's reactions to watching the episodes. I've already watched.

[Abu]

Just. I. I'm literally, like, crying every episode. Like, either because the animation and music is so beautiful or because just the emotions are so heightened.

[Leo]

Oh.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

I am waiting for my wife to watch them so that I can. We can talk about that. Anyway. Oh, my God.

[Abu]

Just text me. In the meantime, I'll be your wife.

[Leo]

Oh, so good. Okay, we are going to talk now about our spice morsels. We are going to take one last quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listeners, when we're back, we've got some spice morsels right after this. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian, Sunrise in Vice Guava. And they all bring the monster energy punch. So if you've been living in the white can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is zero sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's pile up our plates with a couple of delicious, yummy, nutritious, spice morsels.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

To wrap up today's episode, to begin with, let's talk about lemming behavior. Allegedly.

[Leo]

Allegedly. Show your receipts o' draid in chapter 17.

[Abu]

Today we get this quote from Odre's reflections. Quote, leaders made mistakes, and those mistakes, amplified by the numbers who followed without questioning, moved inevitably toward great disasters. Lemming behavior. End quote. And dear listener, you might already know this, but while it's true that lemmings will migrate en masse when population in one area becomes too dense and resources become too competitive, the idea that they do so unquestioningly, that they just follow each other unquestioningly into disasters, seems to actually be referencing a widespread myth that lemmings will throw themselves off a cliff if other lemmings are doing it.

[Leo]

We here at Gom Jabbar are tired of this widespread lemming slander.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Lemmings.

[Abu]

The slander ends today.

[Leo]

It ends today.

[Abu]

Justice for lemmings.

[Leo]

Justice for those little fellows.

[Abu]

They're not just a bunch of cliff hopping dummies.

[Leo]

They're doing their best.

[Abu]

They're out here.

[Leo]

They're out here doing their best. Lemmings.

[Abu]

Okay, so here's where this myth comes from, okay? We're gonna correct this once and for all. So in case you didn't know, the myth that lemmings will follow each other off a cliff into disaster, to death, whatever is actually tied. Of course it's fucking tied to Disney is tied to a Disney documentary from 1958 called White Wilderness. And in this film, the narrator explains that lemmings will follow each other into big bodies of water en masse, without thinking.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Unquestioningly. And if the water is too wide, they will drown.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And of course, this voiceover is running over top of footage of lemmings leaping off of a cliff into the ocean,

[Leo]

into the Arctic Ocean. And it's like. Okay, subtle. Yeah, yeah, subtle. Nice and subtle.

[Abu]

Here's the thing, though, and here's where justice will finally be served. This is bullshit.

[Leo]

This is a fabricated scene.

[Abu]

In 1982, a lesser known documentary called Cruel Camera, about animal cruelty in the film industry, revealed that the filmmakers of that Disney documentary had basically just thrown a bunch of lemmings Off a cliff. To capture this footage, quote, the crew members constructed spinning turntables covered in snow to jostle lemmings and send them tumbling, and then proceeded to throw them off the cliff. The resulting footage was edited to make the mass animal killing look like natural suicide. End quote.

[Leo]

There are so many stories about this. They paid teens to go collect lemmings for the production.

[Abu]

Jesus Christ.

[Leo]

And it's not the Arctic Ocean. It's actually just, like, river in Canada. There's so much to this. But literally, lemming behavior or like, oh, what a lemming.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Is just in the vernacular because of this fucking documentary. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Okay, well, now you know, dear listeners. Spread the good word about lemmings. Tell everyone. Grab your mother by the collar.

[Leo]

Shaker Mom.

[Abu]

Did you know? Shaker Mom. Mom. Animal cruelty. Lemmings don't unquestionably follow each other off glass. They don't do it.

[Leo]

Yeah. A couple drown here and. But who doesn't? So do humans.

[Abu]

It's the animal kingdom. Yeah. What are we talking about? They just migrate with each other when resources. Yeah, okay. Back to Dune. It seems that whether because of this documentary directly or just because this documentary seeded this idea of lemmings jumping off cliffs, Frank also fell for this myth.

[Leo]

Yeah, seems like it.

[Abu]

Odrade's commentary is clearly referencing the fact. Not the fact. The myth.

[Leo]

The myth.

[Abu]

Referencing the myth that lemmings will follow each other into disaster unquestioningly.

[Leo]

Yeah. Dylan says, this is getting me fired up. That's why we do this.

[Abu]

Lemmings. So there you go, folks. That's the truth about lemmings that you did not know. It's a phrase. We get what the phrase is referencing, but it is actually a myth.

[Leo]

And I was trying to kind of make it make sense without the myth. Once you know the bullshit, it's like, what does she mean? And I was like, yeah, maybe population density is a reason it's gonna risk the species. So they migrate. So the Bene Gesserit are doing the same. They're scattering like lemmings.

[Abu]

And.

[Leo]

Yeah, a couple of.

[Abu]

We're reaching.

[Leo]

It's giving lemmings, Leo.

[Abu]

It's giving lemmings.

[Leo]

We're reaching. Reaching like a lemming trying to cross the Arctic. Yeah, that's me.

[Abu]

I do think Frank is just referencing it as the myth, you know, Idiot.

[Leo]

Frank, come on. Do your research, Frank. Also, because this book was written after the 1982 documentary Cruel Camera. So it's like. Come on. The truth was out there, Frank. Anyway. All right. Our second and final morsel Today is a Boris, of course. So in today's reading, we get this moment of reflection from Scytale. The serial memories of his many lives would not accept that humans conduct their merchant affairs wherever they can on the decks of sailing ships in tawdry streets full of bustling clerks in the spacious halls of a traditional Bourse with information flowing above their heads for all to see. End quote. And just as a quick aside in looking this up, it actually turns out this was originally not Scytale's thought process. In an original, earlier draft of Chapter House, looking at documents we have from the Cal State Fullerton archive, this observation was originally from o' Drai and her other memory, which is kind of cool. Different context. She has the thought other memory lives confirmed it. Humans do these things in these different places. So I just wanted to really quickly shout out, completely accidentally, this is something that changed between early drafts of Chapter House and the one that we are now reading through one page at a time. Cool. Which is very cool. But I also think that this further emphasizes the parallel between serial lives and other memory. The fact that Frank was able to take this other memory observation and give it to Scytale is another point of comparison. That these characters have compatible ways of seeing the world. Anyway, Frank is out here acting first of all like lemmings kill themselves. Bullshit, Frank. But also that we know what a bourse is. Do you know what a bourse is? Did you know this?

[Abu]

I have no idea what a boarce is.

[Leo]

No fucking clue. Second time it's come up in this book earlier, Shiana is thinking about the state of things. We get this quote, where is the market to accept our fugitive talents? This universe no longer possessed a single bourse. End quote. And I almost talked about it in that episode, but I was like, it's too small. It's too niche. It's not too small for today. We're going to talk about it today because it came up a fucking second time. And I'm tired of not knowing what a bourse is. So I want to tell you all what a bourse is.

[Abu]

I'm ready to learn.

[Leo]

So we're going to start. Basic Bourse, or burs, is a French word translating to stock exchange. And when used in English, is defined as a European stock exchange. Okay, so same meaning. But of course, in English, you're denoting one that's happening over in Europe.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now Investopedia gives a little bit more of a robust definition quote. A marketplace, primarily in Europe for trading securities, commodities and other Financial instruments historically linked to the 13th century Trading practices in Belgium. End quote. Of course. Of course it's linked to 13th century trading practices in Belgium. Who isn't these days, you know? And I will say I went down a crazy rabbit hole learning all about bourses and the various, like, when did they first pop up? What are the different variations of like, yeah, they are trading houses, but then there are also financial institutions. And the New York Stock Exchange is kind of a Boris. So like, what are borses? I was learning a lot. All very interesting. Go check it out. If you're into economics. One of my favorite facts from that deep dive was that bourse and perse have a common etymological ancestry. They come from the same ancient Greek word relating to the leather pouch people used to carry coins, which I thought was very cool. I love when words diverge and then kind of end up also in the same language. So all of this to say, it's a stock exchange, it's a trading house, it's a place where exchanges and trading are happening. So the universe no longer has a single place of trading and no longer a single agreed upon trading house. And even Scytel is thinking back about the spacious halls of that traditional financial trading place. Right? So when Scytel is thinking about this, it seems likely he's thinking about. He's picturing something like the New York City Stock Exchange, right? People, clerks, busy holding up tickets, they're trying to buy and sell stocks. And above them all, right, information flowing above their heads for all to see are the like, stock tickers and what's the, what's the NASDAQ at today? And that sort of thing, Right?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

All of this stuff is, has been around for about 100, 150 years here in New York. So that is very likely what Scytale is referring to there did want to point out, I don't know, that we have a sense that Tleilax, who serial lives actually go back to old Terra. I think that they basically start on Tleilax, which means what is here in New York, the stock exchange market here in New York. Very likely there is something like that for chom or just like out in the imperium, something akin to the New York City stock market. And I say that because, Abu, you and I are so thirsty for like mundane daily details about Dune. Yeah, we love that kind of shit. Like, tell us about the economics, tell us about the. What are the nitty gritty details. I think this confirms there are like day traders in Dune. Like penny stock, day trader, crypto Finance Bros in the Dune universe.

[Abu]

And most of them are Tleilaxi.

[Leo]

It sounds like most of the. Yeah, the ones in the North Face jackets just like button up shirts. They're talking about their arc' teryx. Weird shots fired. And no offense, honestly, if you wear arc' teryx or North Face. But point is, yeah, definitely shots fired

[Abu]

if you're a finance trader bro who does crypto all day.

[Leo]

You. Okay, I have friends who are like that. But yeah, it's. That's fair. I feel like finance Bros make fun of finance Bros. So, yeah, we're. We're just. We're. We're poking fun. It's all in good humor. But there are toil acts who. Finance Bros as well. For sure. Guarantee that is canon. It's not.

[Abu]

Boris.

[Leo]

Boris. Boris. Now you know. Next email to us, folks. You have to use the word Boris and you have to refer to lemmings as just another little fella trying their best.

[Abu]

That's right. Correctly. Now that you.

[Leo]

Correctly. Yeah. Wow.

[Abu]

Okay. Those are some delicious morsels. Great job on that research for those, Leo. Yeah, that wraps up today's quite dense episode. Another fun one in our journey through chapter house Dune. But the journey is far from over. Folks. We have homework for you for the next book club episode for part seven.

[Leo]

Oh, this is. This is tantalizing. I can't wait.

[Abu]

Make sure you've read the next three chapters in this book. 19, 20, and 21. But if your addition is a little bit different than ours, then read through the chapter that ends on the sentence quote. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.

[Leo]

Yeah, they host a podcast together. It's about tune. Yeah. Five stars only, people. Five stars.

[Abu]

I'm seeing visions of a future Dune podcast.

[Leo]

It's kind of good. They talk about lemmings visions of an updated merch store launching soon. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support us here, what we're doing at GOM Jabbar. And of course, the two best ways to support what we do. One is to become a patron [e-mail] Gam Jabbar for as little as $5 a month, you get a bunch of cool benefits. Check it out. It's a great way to make sure we have the flexibility to keep doing this thing that we love to do. And we also have a merchandise store which is being updated soon. So take a look. Those links are in the show notes.

[Abu]

And also we love to hear from you. So email us gomjabarpodcastmail.com, send us your thoughts as you read along with us through this final book by Frank Herbert in the Dune saga. And, of course, send us your questions for future mailbag episodes about this book and the larger Dune universe. And please make sure to pay your tax, send a cute picture of your pet or a cute picture of a lemming.

[Leo]

Yeah, lemmings are super cute.

[Abu]

That's the only way we're gonna open that email.

[Leo]

It's true. Yeah. Can't wait for just a deluge of lemming photos.

[Abu]

I know. Get swarmed by lemming. What do lemmings. Hold on. What do lemmings look like?

[Leo]

I gotta look. They're really cute. They're little potatoes.

[Abu]

Lemming images. Okay. What the fuck? Yeah. This is like a cute little hamster thing.

[Leo]

Yeah, they're adorable.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

So just imagine they're being thrown off a cliff for a documentary. A nature documentary.

[Abu]

How could you? Whose idea was it?

[Leo]

It's so funny because if you. If you look up lemmings off of a cliff.

[Abu]

Frankly, I, too, am not fired up about this. Send me your cold, weary, hungry lemmings. I will take them all in.

[Leo]

Send us your. Yeah, as lady living Liberty said, send me your. Your weary lemmings.

[Abu]

I'll take them all in. I'll raise them. That population boom will happen, and we'll figure it out. Baby, do something.

[Leo]

Statue of lemming Liberty. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always, always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram. Lore underscore party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.

[Abu]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh. They're so fast.

[Leo]

And breathe.

[Abu]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your

[Leo]

first order one 800 contacts.