Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 8)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club – Chapterhouse Dune (Part 8)

Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Hosts: Abu and Leo (Lore Party Media)
Episode Date: March 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this installment of their Chapterhouse: Dune book club, Abu and Leo explore chapters 22 through 24 of Frank Herbert’s final Dune novel, delving into the crumbling power of the Bene Gesserit, the existential dilemmas of their characters, and the novel’s heavy focus on stewardship, identity, and history. This episode features witty banter, sharp analysis, memorable readings, and reflective commentary as the hosts grapple with Herbert’s dense themes and evocative character moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chapter Summaries & Main Themes

Chapter 22 (Odrade’s Perspective)

• Odrade reflects on spice addiction and the hidden costs of life-long dependence.
• She gives Streggi an impromptu lesson on the realities of melange addiction and its downplayed nature in Bene Gesserit training.
• Shocking worldbuilding insight: The Bene Gesserit have control over only 16 planets—clear, sobering proof of their decline.
  • “Sixteen planets remaining to us.” (10:42, Leo)
• Odrade lashes out at Balanda for bureaucratic inefficiency:
  • Quote: “I’m damned if you’re not beginning to act like bureaucrats covering your asses.” (07:56, Leo)
• Thematic centerpiece: Odrade’s weariness of Bene Gesserit orthodoxy and desire for freedom of thought.
  • Quote: “Odrade felt surprised at herself, then realizing she was more than a little sick of Bene Gesserit ways.” (14:16, Leo)
• Tension as Odrade, anxious and under immense pressure, struggles with the Sisterhood’s dire situation and the threat of extinction at the hands of the Honored Matres.

Chapter 23 (Rebecca & The Rabbi)

• The Rabbi, Rebecca, and other hidden Jews are sequestered in a no-chamber, fearful and anxious.
• Rebecca’s transformation through Bene Gesserit “other memory” is highlighted; she refers to an inner persona called “the Speaker.”
  • Quote: “It is to remain human while in contact with all of those past lives.” (66:10, Rebecca via Abu)
• She laments the pendulum swing between being too emotional and too intellectual in the Rabbi, mirroring the book’s larger theme of spectrum and balance.
• Hosts discuss the overt Holocaust imagery and its complex implications in Herbert’s narrative.
• Reflection on the narrative purpose of the hidden Jews and uncertainty about how they fit into the overall plot.

Chapter 24 (Duncan Idaho on the No-Ship)

• Duncan has unrestricted (but suspiciously incomplete) computer access and realizes the no-ship is a lab for testing the limits of prescient confusion.
  • Quote: “It was a laboratory where Reverend Mothers sought a way to nullify a no ship's ability to confuse human senses.” (25:19, Leo)
• He recognizes his emotional and intellectual captivity—he’s free to escape, but bound by love for Murbella and curiosity.
• Exploration of Duncan and Murbella’s relationship as emblematic of the battle between Bene Gesserit coldness and Honored Matre passion:
  • Quote: “My love for you is not a flaw. Their coldness is the flaw. They're just like Honored Matres.” (31:52, Murbella)
• Deep dive into Duncan’s internal mosaic—he senses a breakthrough but can’t piece the puzzle together.
• The hosts praise Herbert’s writing style, energy, and tension in this chapter.

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Double Takeaways

1. Stewardship vs. Ownership: The Bene Gesserit as “Farmers”

• Odrade frames the Bene Gesserit as stewards, not owners, of humanity—“all things are temporary.”
• The Sisterhood’s core belief is in guiding, not ruling, for the long-term survival of humanity (39:49–46:52).
• Leo and Abu unpack the metaphor: being the “farmers” of humanity often means imposing order and sacrificing the wild nature for perceived greater good—but can this stewardship become as controlling as direct ownership?
• They debate whether their actions match their philosophy, and question the legitimacy of the Sisterhood’s self-appointment as stewards:
  • Quote: “Who decided that the Bene Gesserit are the right people to do this? And has anyone ever questioned that in thousands of years within the Order?” (56:14, Abu)

2. Is Duncan Idaho the Ultimate Human?

• With memories of every previous Gola (all deeply flawed but fully human lives), the current Duncan may represent Herbert’s ideal of a human—adaptive, feeling, and grounded in the mundane.
  • Quote: “Living had cemented them inextricably, and he could not explain it to anyone.” (65:08, Abu)
• Contrasted with Rebecca’s struggle to remain human while inundated with Bene Gesserit “other memory,” Duncan is innately human rather than dogmatically engineered.
• The hosts connect Duncan’s role to Van Gogh’s painting for Odrade and as Leto’s “anchor to humanity.”
• Discussion about the pendulum between stifling control (Bene Gesserit) and unchecked passion (Honored Matres).
• Duncan’s predicament—having to conceal his true, fully human nature from the Bene Gesserit or risk death—serves as a critique of their methods and ideology.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bureaucratic burnout:
  “I’m damned if you’re not beginning to act like bureaucrats covering your asses.” (07:56, Leo as Odrade)
• On Bene Gesserit exhaustion:
  “Odrade felt surprised at herself, then realizing she was more than a little sick of Bene Gesserit ways.” (14:16, Abu quoting Herbert)
• On monolithic control:
  “We are farmers, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba…” (45:38, Leo)
• On the Bene Gesserit mission:
  “They want our willing participation in their dream. Test the limits humans can balance on strange surfaces. Get in tune. Don’t think. Do it.” (36:53, Duncan’s mentat musings)
• On love vs. coldness:
  "My love for you is not a flaw. Their coldness is the flaw. They're just like Honored Matres." (31:52, Murbella)
• On mankind’s labels and ownership:
  “Because that way, we lay claim to what we name—we assume an ownership that can be misleading and dangerous.” (44:18, Odrade quoting)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:39 – Odrade’s Spice Addiction & Worldbuilding
• 07:56 – Odrade’s Balanda Rant (Bureaucratic Critique)
• 10:41 – Only 16 Planets Remain
• 14:16 – Odrade’s Disenchantment with Bene Gesserit Ways
• 22:01 – Discussing the Holocaust Imagery and the Hidden Jews’ Narrative Role
• 24:46 – No-Ship as Laboratory & Duncan’s Conjectures
• 31:52 – Murbella on Love vs. the Sisterhood’s Coldness
• 36:53 – Duncan’s Frantic Mentat Mosaic
• 39:49–46:52 – Takeaway: Stewardship vs. Ownership, the Farmer Metaphor
• 57:39–72:28 – Takeaway: Is Duncan Idaho the Ultimate Human?

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Ooey-Gooey Spice Morsels

Spice Morsel 1: Tolstoy’s Diaries in Dune

• Odrade relays a memory: “I am not a river, I am a net.” (75:03, Odrade referencing Tolstoy)
  • Explores the water/net imagery thematic to the Dune saga.
  • Tolstoy’s own diaries deal with rulemaking, self-regulation, and the impossibility of perfect order—deeply resonant with Bene Gesserit themes.
  • “Life is too complex and disordered ever to conform to rules or philosophical systems…” – Britannica on Tolstoy

Spice Morsel 2: Pneumatic Tubes in Sci-Fi & Dune

• Origins and history: Real invention c. 1800, widely used in banks and communications.
• Lockheed explored using vac-train systems; concept endures in sci-fi as efficient but impersonal transit.
• Odrade prefers surface or air—character consistency and subtle tech-worldbuilding.

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Episode Tone & Style

• Playful and bantering, especially in their recurring “horny joke” motif and self-deprecating asides.
• Deeply analytical (existential deep dives, balancing humor and philosophy).
• Grappling openly with historical allusions (the Holocaust, Tolstoy) and their narrative appropriateness.
• Inclusive, engaging listeners for feedback and further discussion (especially on Tolstoy and farming metaphors).

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For Next Time

• Assigned reading: Chapters 25–27 (ACE paperback), or to the chapter ending with “Why did Idaho have to remind them of that just now?”
• Encouragement for listener feedback/pet pictures, and reminders to support via Patreon or check out Dune-themed merch.

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Final Thoughts

Abu and Leo’s discussion underscores Dune’s timeless questions of power, purpose, and humanity, with close readings, pointed critique, and reverent (often irreverent) humor. This episode is especially valuable for those craving deeper context on both the philosophy and plot of Chapterhouse: Dune, and for fans who want to appreciate Herbert’s last, labyrinthine novel through a modern, thoughtful lens.

Transcript

[A]

A small bit of banter in the focused conversation. Pour the horny jokes all over it.

[B]

No insane deep dives into rabbit hole research topics on things no one asked about.

[A]

How glad I am that you are taking personal charge of my special dish, Abu. I forgot the insane deep dives into rabbit hole research topics on things no one asked about.

[B]

That's an important ingredient.

[A]

That's my favorite part.

[B]

If an episode doesn't include that, it's not Gom Jabbar. We haven't done our job.

[A]

I know. It's like we dig deeper, find that. That rabbit hole that no one cares about. Go beyond. Go even further beyond. Welcome to Gom Jabbar. Your guide to the iconic world of Dune will be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[B]

And my name's Abu.

[A]

Oh. And today on the show, we are back, back into the pages, back into the the dense words of Frank Herbert. Truly Dune chapter house or chapter house Dune. I always forget the order of those two words. Good thing we're reading the book.

[B]

You'll get it by the end of the book, I'm sure. But before we div. Dune Chapter house and or chapter house Dune. Let's take care of some quick housekeeping before we get into today's reading, folks.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Beginning, of course, with our spoiler warning. You all know the drill with these book club episodes. As always, today's conversation will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we've covered thus far on the podcast. So as long as you've done the reading, as long as you're caught up, you get to listen today.

[A]

Now, as always, a huge, huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Seth Redding Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohenram and Roger Young. Fellas, if I had to choose anyone to be stuck in a tiny domed, no room under a quickly cementing ash pile fireplace for up to a standard year with all of our dried foods, you'd be the pick. I mean, absolutely, without a doubt.

[B]

Because I'm like, yeah, can you imagine? Yeah, it'd be so nice.

[A]

So nice. Handsome, good looking.

[B]

It would be a great time to be trapped.

[A]

True.

[B]

In a tiny, what was it, 12 by 12 room or something like very small.

[A]

So small. Oh, really uncomfortable, but nevertheless would be less uncomfortable with your company. And of course, that extends to, in some part, all of our patrons we don't have room for all of you in the know room, but we'll, we'll build additional note rooms and we're only able to build additional no rooms thanks to the support that you provide by being patrons at our patreon.com link thing.

[B]

So thank you. That's right. And of course, we understand that subscription fatigue is very much a thing. True. So if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter on Patreon, that's a. Okay. We have a buy me a coffee link in the show notes below. So check that out. And if you are so inclined, send us a thank you with a one time tip.

[A]

Indeed. So you know the plan. This is a book club. So we're going to start with a summary of the assigned chapters. Then we're going to dive into actually today, a couple of takeaways.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Been a while since we've had more than one. There's so much to talk about. And then finally we're going to wrap up with some Ooey Gooey Spice morsels today, brought to you by just history, by real history. Because, you know, at a certain point, history's fun, folks. It is. I'm kind of like discovering the love of it through this book. Oh, I love that.

[B]

As a history buff, I love that for you.

[A]

Yeah. Slowly being converted.

[B]

Yes. You fall into these existential rabbit holes where you read a history book and you're like, this can't be real. What am I reading?

[A]

I'm excited. The real world lore.

[B]

And then you realize it is real. And then you realize that this happened to real people. You and me. And then it gets weird, you know, Then you start spiraling. Anyway, history tangent aside, that's our housekeeping folks. That's the game plan for today's book club episode. Before we dive into today's reading, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere, though. When we come back, we're getting into today's reading.

[C]

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[A]

Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar Tap the banner to learn more. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Like Duncan sitting in his chair, I'm going to say, let's not think. Let's just do it. Let's jump in. So let's get into chapter 22. So our first chapter today. We are. You'll never fucking guess it with o'. Drade. And she's thinking. She's just thinking thoughts. She's looking out her window, thinking thoughts. I know. First time in this book. Now she's just taken her morning hit of spice melange. She's going through the process. You know, it's an addiction and she's kind of working through it. And she gives Streggy, who's updating the maps behind her, a little mini TED talk on spice addiction. You know, this is a thing you all learn about, but you probably don't really know the depths of it. Their conversation is fascinating. Some really interesting world building that Frank is now adding in the 11th hour about this thing that's been so central to Dune since the very first book, treading the line of what constitutes what is a worthwhile trade off for lifelong addiction.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Fascinating stuff. Now Streggi is interested. She's hearing what Odrade is saying, and she's hanging on every word. The darker side of melange, so seldom talked about, so seldom addressed. Something that is clearly also downplayed in acolyte training.

[B]

And I think the reality actually is like, no matter how much training they give the acolytes, I got the sense that spice addiction, real deal spice addiction, the type that o' Draid is dealing with and that I get the sense other Reverend Mothers deal with later in life as well. That's like a you don't know until, you know, sort of thing. Like, it doesn't matter what we tell the acolytes. They will never realize the true pain until they themselves experience it.

[A]

Yeah. So once Streggi leaves clearly in a great mood after that, heart to heart, one to one, Odrade goes to her workroom and finds a huge pile of, like, archival tasks.

[B]

This is so funny.

[A]

Such a justified crash out. I love this moment so deeply because she's like, what the F? Actual. Fuck Blonda. Get Blonda, get in here. And within a minute, Blonda's there, sweating. Spectacular. She called. She. She basically gives her just this like, lashing for piling useless bureaucratic shit on her table in this like, dire time when every fucking minute counts. I love this quote. I'm damned if you're not beginning to act like bureaucrats covering your asses. End quote. Honestly, gutter ass fucking fair. Yeah. It's like, delegate, get Balanda some cream for that burn.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

Balanda, delegate. What the fuck are you doing? And I think this is true too, that, you know, I brought up Chernobyl on the last episode. I think like this idea of trying to dodge responsibility or not feeling the weight of responsibility by going, yeah, I could decide on this or I could delegate this responsibility, but I'm ultimately going to actually leave it to her to make the final call. Now I'm not liable for the choice that I'm making or whatever. It's like, you just have to be making choices. That's why I fucking have you to delegate. Like, that's why these power structures exist. And the second that bureaucrats are no longer doing their job, then you just have tape for no. For no reason.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Tape for take sake.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Super, super valid. Crash out. I love it. Now o' Draid informs Belanda, by the way, btw, all this work, you fucking do it. You see how fun it is? I'm leaving. Fuck off. And then she is like, oh, well, actually she's like, I'm going to go meet with Shanna. You're in charge. I'll be on, you know, my phone. I also love the moment. Yeah. Blonda's like, will I be able to reach you? And she's like, yeah, I'll have my fucking phone on. And Belinda's like, oh, thank God. Okay, cool. Okay, then I can then. Okay. Everything's fine. I can always. I can. Guaranteed she's going to text her like a million times. Oh, my God, in the 20 minutes she's gone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But there is some time. Tamerlane is like, it's going to take a couple hours to get everything ready for us to head south to meet with Shiana. So in the meantime, you got some time to kill. Odrade kills that time by anxiously wandering and just kind of imposing. It's so stressful. And it's also stressful considering, you know, that again, she's someone who walks into A room. Everyone kind of stops talking because, oh, my God, it's the Reverend.

[B]

The CEO walks in, you're like, oh.

[A]

And add to that the fact that the CEO is, like, stressed and also anxious, and it's like, oh, that's not fun. This is so stressful. And she is really having these kind of spiraling, horrifying thoughts, really showing how perilous things are for the Bene Gesserit. Quote, sixteen planets remaining to us.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

And that includes Bazel. Definitely a place in peril. Only 16? She pushed that thought aside. No time for it. End quote.

[B]

That's a shocking number, though, I think.

[A]

16. Yeah.

[B]

Most of heretics. It's very unclear what the status of the war against the honored Mottrace is. And here in Chapter House, we begin to get some very hard quantitative fucking numbers on how the war effort's going. And it's looking bad.

[A]

It's looking bad.

[B]

I mean, last episode we talked about, what was the protocol? Something extremis where Odrade considered like, okay, maybe this is it. We hit the big red button. Every Reverend Mother just scatters to the wind because we've lost. Is it time? The fact that she's having those thoughts, and then today, the fact that we learn that in the entire imperium, only 16 planets remain under Bene Gesserit control. That's a pretty wild thought. And it's becoming more and more clear over the course of this book just how much on the back foot the Bene Gesserit are and just how clearly the honored madres are winning.

[A]

Well, o' Draid ends up in the kitchen. She goes and she talks to this head chef, one of the best chefs in human history, she points out, which is fucking incredible. And he has her make her favorite dish, which we actually find out is something that her father used to make as she grew up that sea child loves. It's this oyster dish. Nevertheless, she's eating this, like, oyster stew. And that is when Tomalaine finds her. Hey. Turns out the transport's ready. We're going to be heading south now. And Odrade asks her, by the way, any update on the Tuj capital? Touj Dortujla, the one who is brokering this deal, this trap, to invite Odrade to Junction to meet with. With Domme.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And Tamerlane. Fucking also somewhat valid. Crash out, because I get the impression every six minutes or is going, hey, sorry. Any word from Dortusha? Tamerlane's like, talk. Shut up.

[B]

We will tell you when there Is word. You will be the first to know.

[A]

You think I'm sitting on that text? What the fuck? You know? Very. Also valid. Crash out. And Odrade has a moment of like, yeah, my bad. Yeah. Oh, that's. That's on me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oops, sorry. Tame. And this leads to a train of thought from Odre that is really, like, shockingly heretical. So we're going to share it. Yeah.

[B]

I was taken aback by this.

[A]

In full. And I again, I love it. I think Frank's firing in all, all cylinders. Quote. Meekly, Odrade followed Tamerlane into dispatch. I should put a monitor on my mind and question everything that rises there. Mental intrusions always had good reason behind them. That was the Bene Gesserit way, as Balanda often reminded her. Odrade felt surprised at herself, then realizing she was more than a little sick of Bene Gesserit ways. Let Belle worry about such things for a change. This was a time for floating free, for responding like a will o' the wisp to the currents moving around her. Sea child knew about currents. End quote.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

She was more than a little sick of Bene Gesserit ways.

[B]

The mother Zuberior. Dude, chills, chills.

[A]

Odrade's in this box and it's just so clear that she's trying to find a way out of it that doesn't doom humanity. No pressure. It's so great. Oh, I love those little moments.

[B]

What a way to end that chapter. Tying a lot of things together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, Moving on. Chapter 23. This is a short one. In this one, we join the Rabbi, Rebecca and a select small group of hidden Jews in a no chamber on Gamut near their farm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Rabbi in this chapter is frazzled. He is concerned about the fate of his people, perhaps more so than normal. And Rebecca's cryptic Bene Gesserit riddles and responses to his questioning and his outbursts isn't exactly improving his mood. I found this line in particular quite revealing from Rebecca's perspective. Quote. Rebekah heaved a sigh of relief. The Rabbi was at his worst in the wild oscillations, too emotional or too intellectual. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is how she sees him now.

[A]

Yeah. And honestly, fair. There's a follow up little explanation that I really wanted to share here. Quickly. Quote. The drawbacks of anyone placing considerable reliance on intellectual achievements were large. She cannot deny all of that evidence from the lumpitus horde. Right? This idea that if you go too intellectual, you're also fucked. Again, this is the Bene Gesserit, the Honored Matre spectrum. Too emotional, too intellectual. That's what we're dealing with this entire book. And here's a microcosm, the rabbis swinging

[B]

back and forth, humanized within the rabbi. Yep, great observation. That's absolutely it. That's the pendulum swing. That's the spectrum that we're on a macro level dealing with in this entire novel. And here Rebecca is frustrated with the Rabbi himself, swinging between these two extremes under. In a moment of duress, to be clear, you know, stressful moment they're living through. Meanwhile, we learn from this chapter that Rebecca has been actually kind of enjoying her newfound abilities, her newfound access to other memory. And in fact, she has been guided by this inner Persona that she has begun to refer to as the Speaker. Capital S. Yeah. And she talks about how she has gained quite a bit of insight from the Lampada's horde and inevitably is beginning to think more like a Bene Gesserit. Remember, she is a wild Reverend Mother who underwent the agony outside of the Bene Gesserit fold. But because she downloaded those memories from Lucilla, she has countless Bene Gesserit within her other memory now. And I find it interesting that even having other memory begins to reshape her worldview. Like another form of, like, subtle indoctrination maybe is too strong a word, but another form of reinforcing the Bene Gesserit dogma and long held traditional is you download these other memories and you begin to think more like us. You begin to. Your worldview begins to be reinforced through a Bene Gesserit lens because someone in your head is telling you she had

[A]

other memory from her, presumably her maternal side of her Jewish ancestors for many, many thousands of years prior to downloading Lucilla's beliefs. But you're right that what Lucilla's other memory represents are generational Bene Gesserit teachings. Yes. So the thing that is so shifting her internal kind of clockwork is this, like the speaker representing this Lampadas horde.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Again, synonymous with the body of Bene Gesserit indoctrination and dogma and. And wisdom and like knowledge and intellect and perspective and learning. So it's all. It's all kind of mixed in there. But I also find it so interesting to think about. You can have other memory like Rebecca pre meeting Lucilla and not be fundamentally changed necessarily. And the thing that is now making her, to the rabbi's eyes at least, this stranger, this, like, bizarre. She's becoming more of a Bene Gesserit is The kind of gravity of these Bene Gesserit teachings, which is, yeah, I don't know, Very, very interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so fascinated by pre Chapter House Rebecca, who was she?

[A]

Give me that one.

[B]

Why did she undergo this agony outside of, you know, why did she do any of that? You know, the fact that she's a wild Reverend Mother is endlessly fascinating. And we're only seeing the sort of like post fallout of that after meeting Lucilla. And I'm so fascinated in the pre. Like, what happened pre. All of this. Alas, we have not yet been told in this book and we'll have to see if we get more insight later, hopefully. Now wrapping up this chapter again, it's a very short one. Just a couple of pages of mostly internal thoughts from Rebecca. Most of the chapter is her basically thinking about the dangers of prescience ideas. We have talked time and time and time again on this podcast, how it traps you, the trap of the Oracle, etc. Etc. And in particular she thinks of it in the context of the rabbi. Right? The rabbi is like, oh my gosh, we're hiding. Who knows what's going to happen next? If only we knew. If only we knew the dangers at our door, we'd escape them. And of course, Rebecca understands the irony in that, is that if you knew the dangers at your door, you would be trapped within them. The Oracle would trap you by simply seeing the vision ahead, just as Muadib and Leto II did for humanity. Now, one last comment I wanted to make on this chapter before we move on is while not a lot happens in this chapter, I think it is important to note that there is obvious Holocaust imagery here. Right. We have a group of Jewish people hiding in a small room beneath the fireplace, fearing for their futures as they face an existential threat and an enemy at their door searching for them. Right? Like that is undeniably Holocaust coded. I will say I read this chapter and I reread it and then we scripted this document for today. And I was like, okay, maybe some insight will come to me about this chapter. And I'm walking away, not sure how I feel about that, about that choice from Frank Herbert to kind of so blatantly tip his hat to the Holocaust because it feels a bit crude and unrefined. We know Frank is able to do subtlety. We know Frank is able to do depth. And to just kind of make a Holocaust Jewish survivors reference feels a little basic. I guess it was kind of the feeling I walked away with. I'm not sure I'M still not sure how I feel about it. I'm interested to continue sort of exploring my feelings as we work our way through the rest of the book. Today, in fact, marks the halfway point of the book. So I'm interested to see where we end up, because now that we are halfway, I'm beginning to wonder where the hidden Jews fit into the puzzle piece of this story. Because so far we have spent so little time with them and they've done so little of consequence outside of interacting with Lucilla. Then I'm wondering where they all fit in, and I'm wondering why they were included at all.

[A]

Yeah, like, I can't help. You're right. Like, very obviously right. When we talk about hiding from seekers and hunters who would wish your extermination if they knew more. You know, all this. All this stuff. And so then we are kind of led to draw parallels between the Nazi Party and the Honored Matre. And then if that is on one end of the spectrum, what is the other end of the spectrum to the Nazi Party and fascism? And, well, then that is maybe the Bene Gesserit. But we also know that Frank, as a libertarian, was very heavily critiquing Western society and parts of its mechanism. So maybe there's resonance there. But I also. But I don't fucking know. I mean, I think you're right. I think what we'll have to do. We were going to do an episode anyway, just solely on the Jewish people in this book and in Heretics and kind of like, look at what maybe people have to say about that and share those perspectives. But I think also really trying to dive into some of that imagery might be worth doing. Once we have all of the data

[B]

of the book right, there's still plenty more book left to go.

[A]

And Frank is so intentional about so much. And it's like, what were you trying to do? Like, this would probably be.

[B]

There has to be a reason. Of course.

[A]

Yeah, there has to be. He was just like, holy shit, Jews exist. I should put them in my book. That's it. He says, like, the entire reason. Yeah. And then when a Krispy Kreme donut shop appears in chapter 45. Wow, that was so weird. Yeah, he was hungry.

[B]

Look, we all go through a cream phase. It's fine.

[A]

So true. So true. So in chapter 24, our final chapter, we return to the no ship with our boy, Duncan Idaho. As he observes how much his current life is unchanged from his days in the Gamu Keep, he's again, he is kept prisoner. He now has apparently, supposedly, allegedly unrestrained access all this data in the computer terminal. But he's highly skeptical. And he's still finding things that are blocked off from him. Rooms in the no Ship that are locked. Right. And he can see gaps in the information that's being provided to him, and he's not sure why. And of course, all of this is under the 1984 Big Brother. Bene Gesserit, comma, is watching every single thing he does, hearing every utterance, every word.

[B]

Big Sister, Big Sister, Big Sister.

[A]

I'm so sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Big Sister, the classic sequel to George Orwell's Big Sister didn't do quite as well. But, yes, he's also come to this realization, which I thought was so fucking cool, because I also. I tend to think of the no ship as synonymous with just a holding cell for these people, for Scytale, for Duncan, for Mirabella.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's a big ship. And Duncan points out that he actually. The no Ship is more than a prison.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is why it's so expensive. It's so risky to bring it to planet. But why would they do that? Quote, this ship was not just a prison. He had considered several Mentat projections Prime. It was a laboratory where Reverend Mothers sought a way to nullify a no ship's ability to confuse human senses. End quote.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Which, like, holy shit, that's cool. What? Yeah. What does that look like? I want to see those experiments. I want the two Bene Gesserit who are tasked with doing that. I want to hear their day in and day out where they're just going. Okay, put on a blindfold again. Can you sense it? No. Fuck. Okay, we'll try a different. You know, I want to see what that process looks like. That sounds so interesting to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, we also learn in this chapter the sort of tenuous nature of Shiana and Duncan's rebellious alliance. They have struck up a means of communicating and scheming and plotting. But we also get here that Duncan doesn't fully trust her. And he has this sobering thought moment where he remembers how it's clear that Odrade also trusts Shanna. And they seem to be in league with one another. Shianna is Odrade's student. She's learning everything she knows from Odrade. Can he really trust her? Can he trust Shiona? Right, so Duncan's at his console and he's mulling over his current situation. We also find out here that Duncan is basically imprisoned by choice, that he's got, like, he's got the keys to the door. Quote, he had known for some time that he very likely could escape, but Murbella and his increasing knowledge about their predicament held him. End quote.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

He's like, yeah, I can get out of here.

[B]

I mean, again, I could prison break this shit. This is easy.

[A]

I have Ocean's Eleven in my Gola memories. I know how to do it. I'll do a laser dance and get out of here. You know, it's Ocean 12, but doesn't matter. Point is. And yeah, like, the guards, the Bene Gesserit guards who are kind of like, patrolling, it's like, none of that would be necessarily that much of a challenge for Duncan. You know, he has this sense that he can get out, and it's totally. It's totally doable. But we also really hear in this chapter how much he loves Merbella. Like, he loves Merbella. He is attached.

[B]

I loved that part. Yeah.

[A]

It's beautiful. And I think it's like. It's so easy to boil down the relationship to this sort of, like, sexual magnet, magnetism that Frank often draws on. But I think that that is simply the embodiment of their attraction toward one another. It's this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is the physicality of their feelings. And their feelings are of, like, undying attachment.

[B]

Right. I appreciated that because I think this also shows the subtlety to the ways the Bene Gesserit can trap you. They don't need to put you behind bars to trap your ass. Right. Like, Duncan knows he can escape. Oh, Jade probably also knows that he could escape. Like, if Duncan really put his mind to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He could break out of this prison easily, physically speaking. Right. But we haven't just imprisoned him physically, we've imprisoned him emotionally. We know his attachment to Marbella. And with the slow drip feed of data and information that Odrade is feeding to the mentat mind of Duncan Idaho, she is imprisoning him intellectually because he's sitting here at this console all the time, every day, trying to solve the puzzle of what's going on out there in the universe and what the sisterhood are up to and what his role in the plans are and how he fits into the larger puzzle of all of this. And so he's here willingly. If he wanted to break out, if he had nothing else tying him to this Gnosthip, his ass would have been gone years ago. But the Bene Gesserit are so subtle and so manipulative that they have other ways of tying him down. Which I found really interesting. Right. It illustrates the way the Bene Gesserit operate.

[A]

Yeah. And like, sure. The Honored Matre have you in a cage and bound with she Gawayer. Sure. Brutal, efficient, direct. Is that any better than this? Like, we've. We have the one you love and

[B]

we're converting her, by the way, to

[A]

us and we're stealing her from you. She. We're turning her against you. But you can't leave because that's how much you love her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, great point, diabolical, but you're absolutely right. Like, their cage is not just the metal that binds you. It's also the theology, it's the philosophy, it's. It's the language, it's the mental. It's all games. It's all, as he points out, it's all games.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he does have access to more data, though. And he starts to compute some Mentat projections about the Honored Matre, about the Futars and this elderly couple from his visions. He suspects that they are, if they are face dancers, that they are not part of the Tleilaxu power structure. They are separate. They're individuals. Yeah. He also has this. Oh, my God, these winding Mentat thoughts, which is like so cool. And we'll talk about it a little bit, a little bit later. But he's remembering. It's like he feels himself very anxious and he realizes this is a sign of maybe being on the verge of some big breakthrough. And he's not sure what the breakthrough is. He's not sure what revelation is going to come from it, but he feels like he's on the edge of something. He's like, I don't know what it is. And the conversation that's kind of playing in his head over and over again is this one where O'Drade like, ambushed him out of a. What sounds like a post sex nap. He's like chilling in bed. Mirbela's gone to take a shower, and Odrade's like, look at this fucking painting. And he's like, ah. And she's like, ah. He's like, oh, God, this. Yeah. Van Gogh. Okay, cool. But he's thinking about this, like, lesson that she gave him in this moment. And then Mirbella comes back from the shower. She continues the lesson and there's. Oh my God, there's so many lovely little character moments in that conversation between Odrade and Marbella and Duncan. But a big one that is worth calling out is, is this sadness that we're talking about that. Duncan is cognizant that he is losing, actively losing Mirbella to Odrade's indoctrination and to the indoctrination of the Bene Gesserit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Mirbella is also anxious about this. Mirbella clearly still has some of those non Bene Gesserit perspectives. You know, at one point she says, like, explain yourself. And he's like, okay, hey, there's the Honored Matre that I know and love. You know, she's threatening to kick me in the neck again. Love that. Love that energy. So hot. And she makes this dramatic statement to the Kamai's, quote, my love for you. To Duncan, my love for you is not a flaw. Their coldness is the flaw. They're just like Honored Matres. Whoa. Okay, girl.

[B]

Dude cannot be saying the quiet part out loud.

[A]

I think the problem is she's been listening to our podcast about this and she's like, yeah, wait a second. They're the same. They're the same fucking thing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Oh, it's so good. And yeah, she's saying it for the Kamai's perspective.

[B]

I mean, it's brilliant because there's layers to it. Right? It's not just Merbella being rebellious or emotional in the moment as she is speaking with Duncan, laying in bed together. There are layers. Recall that Odrade is constantly visiting Mirbella, and Odrade is a key part of Mirbella's training as well. Yes. She has, like, other trainers and proctors and whatever teaching her Bene Gesserit basics. But o' Draid is clearly implanting in Merbella thoughts that maybe o', Draid, as Mother Superior, could never say out loud because the watchdogs would be on her ass. If you recall last episode, she barely kept her seat in power by, like, one fucking vote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so I think Mirbella here is saying things that o' Draid wants to say and cannot say because of her role in the sisterhood, because she is Mother Superior. But Mirbella is this very interesting combination of heretical Mother Superior thoughts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Old fashioned Honored Matre training, new Bene Gesserit training. Also throwing. We're throwing a lot into this blender of Merbella, the character, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I think we're forming this, like, Honored Maitre Bene Gesserit Sister 2.0, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Within the character of Merbella. And to some extent, I think she's recognizing that she is saying, my love is not a flaw. Odrade might say, sea Child is not a flaw. The internal love that I carry inside me. Not a flaw. The coldness is the flaw. And if anything, our coldness, our distance from our humanity, makes us just as cruel as the Honored Madrid. So I love it. You know, it's one line that could, on the surface, just be read as, like, a statement of love for Duncan, but I think there are many layers that thematically we've been exploring throughout this whole book and say a lot about the sisterhood, about the Honored Matre, about everything that's going on.

[A]

It's so good. And I'll also say, just from a personal perspective, I think this chapter is some of Frank's writing at its best. Frank does so much with rhythm. He talks in interviews about how he wants his books read out loud, or that's kind of how he thinks about his writing process. And I think that this chapter, I felt almost physical discomfort in this chapter because there are so many short, fast sentences of, yes, this is it. I have this thought, this is going to be great. And then long paragraph, and then be like. And then this and this and this and this and this, but I'm not sure. And this. And it's jumping. It's scattered, it's frantic, it's frenetic. There's all of this energy in every single word. And the chapter is so fucking long. I was like. I kept turning the page going, oh, no, we're not done yet. Oh, shit. Because it's like. It's this unsustainable level of elevated interest, and he's giving us these little teases as to what Duncan might be about to discover. Duncan's clearly on the edge of something, but we don't know what it is. And he doesn't tell us. And then the fucking chapter ends with no revelation. We just have those assembled pieces. It's so good.

[B]

I mean, it's like, yeah, this is a chapter. You're so right. That needs to be heard. It needs to be performed by a cast. And honestly, this is one that's worthy of adaptation into some sort of audio drama scene. Because there's so much emotion and frenetic energy packed into this chapter where really all that's happening. Again, to pause and consider what's actually happening in this chapter. Duncan is sitting at his desk in front of a computer.

[A]

He's sitting in a chair. Well, the chapter ends with a frustrated Duncan, unable to really congeal all of these disparate pieces into a whole picture. He has this kind of mosaic in his mind that he keeps coming back to and referring. And the puzzle pieces, they're not fitting, but he knows they have to somehow, and they're just not gelling. And we're left simply with those pieces, those scattered, disparate pieces. He collects them for us. And. And we end on this little note. Quote. A game where one of the pieces can't be moved. Excuses for extraordinary behavior. They want our willing participation in their dream. Test the limits humans can balance on strange surfaces. Get in tune. Don't think. Do it. End quote. Emperor Palpatine. What should we do? Do it. And honestly, Terrible jeopardy. Clue. What is? I don't fucking know yet. What is?

[B]

What is cannot piece this mosaic together.

[A]

Mangoes. What is Mangoes. No shit. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Gosh. What tantalizing breadcrumbs Frank Herbert is laying out for us here.

[A]

There's so much. Yeah. So by the end of this book, we'll come back to some of this stuff and we'll look at it again with fresh eyes.

[B]

But, man, it'll be fun to consider all of these lines.

[A]

Yeah. Well, those are our assigned chapters. Today we have a couple of takeaways from these chapters, including Stewardship versus Ownership. What does it mean to own something as well as. Is Dunkin the perfect man? I mean, answer tbd. I guess we'll talk about it, but don't go anywhere. Dear listeners, when we're back, we're going to be talking about stewardship, ownership, and whether Dunkin is perfect.

[B]

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[B]

Welcome back, folks. Let's get into our double takeaways for today's reading. You're getting two takeaways today for the price of one. It's a deal.

[A]

Double takeaways. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's begin. Today for our first takeaway, we want to explore an idea that I think, frankly, has sort of been simmering quietly in the background of this whole book. And We've yet to sort of call it out directly. I think a comment that o' Draid makes to Striggy in today's reading really brings this idea to the forefront. So I think it's finally really brings his idea to the forefront. So it's finally time for us to talk about it. Here's what Odrade says to Stregi. Acolytes feel the threat. They look at Chapter House and think of it as their fortress for the Long Night of the Whores. Stregi, this planet is only another temporary place. Today we go south and impress that upon you. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's big. That's an idea that has been sprinkled throughout the whole Dune saga, Right? This idea that things are temporary. All things are temporary. And this is a key part of the Bene Gesserit worldview as well. Whether it's a planet that we call home base, whether it's the security and safety we feel in our power, whether it's the power we currently wield, whether it's the institution of the Bene Gesserit itself or the institution of the Golden Lion, Throne of the Carinos. Everything on a long enough timeline is temporary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything can change. And Paul and Leto too would be first in line to fucking tell you this themselves. The two Kwisatz Haderach prescient beings would tell you, we see in our visions that nothing is permanent. Nothing is forever.

[A]

As a quick side note, something kind of tickled my brain for there for a second. It was in fact Balanda who first used that Long Night of the Horrors quote in Heretics of Dune, last book. So this is this idea, right? We talked about it in a spice morsel. Then we have loggered up the idea of that encircled encampment, of we're just battening down the hatches and kind of buckling up for this long drawn out conflict. That was Balanda's accusation and the feeling of the Bene Gesserit kind of council. This is how long these thoughts have been percolating since heretics. He's been giving us this idea of, like, how much are they kind of toying with these lessons that we've learned from Paul and Leto? Very drawn out some of these lessons.

[B]

Yeah. And I think right before this quote, actually Odrade literally, like, calls out Balanda. She's like, Balanda's thinking is getting to you acolytes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So this idea of things being temporary, I think this leads to a core belief in the sisterhood Something that's come up in this book before, and we'll get to that in a second. But at the core of the Sisterhood, they see themselves as stewards of humanity's future. They are responsible for preserving and improving humanity rather than having any sort of ownership or control over it. They don't have power over humanity. They don't seek to control humanity. They would say, sure, yeah, they seek to be its stewards to ensure its future survival. That's how they see themselves. That's sort of the. The mission statement of the many Gesserit. And I think there's nobility in that. Right. I think that is actually quite a noble view to have as an institution. Again, as far as mission statements go, saying that we are responsible for making things better for everyone who comes after us, and we actually don't have the right to, like, deplete or damage humanity because it's in our care and we care for it. Like, all of that sounds like real kosher to me. Like, amazing.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and is very in line with a lot of Frank's beliefs about ecology and about leaving stuff for our grandchildren. And think about who comes after you like that. That has the moral ring of what is correct, according to the author who's writing these words.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So I think that is worth calling out, you know, before we get into some inevitable criticisms here of the Sisterhood as heretics and chapter house do. Yeah, I think it is worth, on a base level, just acknowledging, as far as mission statements go, this is not a bad one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's quite a worthy cause to say that this is what we do and this is the extent of our goals, and we are here to nurture and guide. We don't seek outright power, which I think many folks in the Dune universe do. You know, whether that's capital power with the Spacing Guild and the Monopoly and Choam, whether it's actual power, like the great houses and the politics of the Imperium.

[A]

Now, I love this because you actually found this section. And again, we talked about this at the time. We talked about the kind of imagery of this, but I think it fits so perfectly within this conversation about their idea as stewards. What are stewards in the natural sense, but farmers? We are farmers. Ba, ba ba ba, ba ba. And so she talks to. She's teaching young Miles Tag. They're walking through the orchard earlier in this book, and she says, quote, you're human. And humans have this deep desire to classify, to apply labels to everything. End quote. Tag goes, yeah. Why What? Huh? Why do we do that? What's with that? Odrade explains the slippery slope of ownership. Quote, because that way, we lay claim to what we name, we assume an ownership that can be misleading and dangerous. End quote. The God. This is not a pipe. Right? The word is not the word. This table is not a table. The idea that words are not necessarily the reality that they represent is a very important one, I think, in, like, semantic philosophy, but also in philosophy more broadly. And this is what she's talking about. The idea that we can say, this is the country of whatever, you know, and then to claim that that has some bearing on the reality of the world is dangerous because they're just labels. They're just things. We've chosen to address the things. She continues in her explanation, emphasizing the Bene Gesserit view that all things are temporary, even your naming and ownership of a thing. My street, my lake, my planet, she said, my label forever. A label you give to a place or a thing may not even last out your lifetime. End quote.

[B]

Essentially the same lesson she's giving Streggy here.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

This is not forever. This is temporary. We are merely stewards of this planet until it is our time to move on. And we've done our work here.

[A]

Right? And where. Where do you draw the line in that sand? Right? Like, you can say, like, this is old Terra, this is Earth. And that label lasts a long time. But what is, Leto might ask, very frustratingly, on his fucking high horse, his high source with his God cart, he might ask, what is a long, long, long time in the face of infinity? What is that? What is. You know, we can't create these things that last immutably past our own lifetimes. If, for instance, humanity goes extinct now by the end of that walk in the orchard, young Tag makes an astute observation. He's the goat. Even as a child, about this sisterhood and how they see themselves. Quote, you are farmers, he said, that's really what you Bene Gesserit do, End quote. And it's beautiful. Right? Like, that is, I think, something that we see from the very beginning of the Dune books all the way through to this last book. It's really cool.

[B]

Right? Right. And now we're just seeing it from the inside of the Bene Gesserit perspective, how they see themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As Teg says, you see yourselves as farmers. And that has, again, going back to this mission statement, why the Bene Gesserit do what they do as the farmers of humanity, they cultivate, right? They nurture their crops. We are their crops. Humanity. And they do that across millennia, across long, long timelines that don't just span one lifetime in which a label may disappear. Because all labels are transient, right? And nothing is ever permanent. They are cultivating their crop across millennia. They're planting the seeds and fertilizing the soil to create what they believe are the best outcomes for humanity. Right? And we've seen this, we've talked about this many, many times. We see this manifest across various schemes, across all of these books, from their breeding program with the Kwisatz Haderach to much of their political puppetry from the shadows, even in the HBO show. The way they use their truthsayers to see to themselves within the great houses of the Imperium and steer the politics of the Imperium, as Paul Atreides says in Dune Part 1. All of that is in service of their role as gardeners, farmers, caretakers, taking care of the crops, taking care of humanity.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

And for what it's worth, they take this role seriously. They will do whatever it takes to make sure that the soil is fertilized, that the seeds are planted properly as they see fit. Because they want to create the future that's best in their eyes for humanity. And oftentimes we see them crossing certain lines, right? Like they cross certain lines of short term morality or short sighted prejudices that maybe, yes, matter now, but again to a Bene Gesserit who's thinking like, what is going to matter in 5,000 years? It doesn't matter. If we have to kill a couple of crops in order to make sure the whole field thrives 5,000 years from

[A]

now, so be it.

[B]

It's that very long term view. And again, we talked. All of God, Emperor of Dune is basically about this because Leto takes over as the soul farmer. He's like, this is my fucking field now, bitch.

[A]

This is my field.

[B]

And so that's what he is doing as well, you know, he's burning a couple of crops now so that the rest of the Shiana crops in the future can be very juicy and yummy. I'm gonna stick to this farm metaphor as long as I can, folks. Bear with me.

[A]

He's growing crops that other farmers can't find. He's like, this is an invisible apple tree. What the fuck?

[B]

Where are the apples?

[A]

Where are the apples? They're all everywhere. You'll never find them all. They've scattered upon the ground.

[B]

They've scattered to the wind.

[A]

They're buoyant, they're buoyant apples that float through the wind.

[B]

Now, of course, turning the tables a little bit to the criticisms.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have talked at length about what the Bene Gesserit claim they do. We are the stewards of humanity, not the owners.

[A]

We don't control.

[B]

We only guide versus what. Then they actually do what their actions say. And this is a matter of debate. In fact, you and I have debated this at length in an episode that we recently released where we took the Sisterhood to court.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we accused them of being the real villains of the Dune universe because their actions don't align with their goals.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Are they farmers because they're burning one too many crops? Yeah, we debated that. And there are valid arguments on both sides. And I think that's where the fun and the nuance of the Sisterhood really comes in. And something, you know, I argued in that courtroom was that their methods often look like manipulation and control. They may say it's not. They may say we are simply cultivating and guiding. But are their actions simply exerting power and control wrapped up in just more noble language, more flowery language? We're just here to take care of you. We're farmers. Trust us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This plan will play out in 5,000 years. Don't worry about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is that just flowery language to cover up what everyone else is doing out here, too? Exerting power, control, influence upon humanity.

[A]

Right. And then by, like, covering up what you're doing in flowery, hard to criticize language, you're also dodging the kind of responsibility for the blood on your hands or the soil on your hands, the fertilizer, the plant.

[B]

There we go. That's right.

[A]

The mango juice all over your dirty little hands. But I also wanted to point out that I think there is this baseline assertion that what farmers do is kind of noble. And that's fine. I'm not going to come out here and bash farmers for farming. But I do think there's a line, something that was kind of percolating for me. I've used that word too many times on this episode. But something that was percolating for me I'm going to keep using it, was the idea that what do farmers do other than take what is wild and unpredictable in nature and try to put it in these neat lines and twist it and guide it into what is beneficial for them. The farmer. The farmer ultimately takes those wild plants, breeds them, makes them more nutritious, makes them more delicious, and then tailors them for their own end. I'm not saying this with any kind of moral valuation. That's simply what farmers do. There's also a very fascinating crossover here where again, drawing from the book Sapiens, they talked about how the institution of farming was also the beginning of humans having to really predict what the future looked like. We have to grow enough food via our farm to sustain our population for winter and winter and then blight and plague and all of these things become something you have to look out for and you have to prepare for. Hunter gatherers don't have to think about two years from now necessarily, or we didn't necessarily as a species.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So there is that. There is something there too, where farmers now have to make grain silos and they have to prepare for what the future looks like. And. And then also farming was the beginning of this agricultural caste system where the people who had the land and had the food were then powerful and those who were whatever, blah, blah. So we could go, could talk about that whole thing for hours.

[B]

Yeah, that's fascinating. I love that hypothesis that the shift to agricultural systems is the birth of macroeconomics. The fact that you have to start planning for decades in the future because of your stocks or whatever and then trade and et cetera, et cetera.

[A]

The soil is too acidic. What do you do? You do something slowly but surely you add basic elements to it and then it becomes more fertile as time goes on. You plant certain crops, you do certain field, you know, certain livestock or whatever to fertilize.

[B]

Oh, you're preaching to the choir. I did all of this in Stardew Valley. My farm in Stardew Valley fucking slapped.

[A]

Yeah, the classic game of relax on a farm, becomes optimized and become a millionaire. Yeah, yeah. But I also like farmers. You know, there are problems historically with like you over rely on a single crop or you. You know, I think Frank, as someone who believed in techno, peasantry and this return to more like smaller agrarian societies, I think would also kind of condemning big agriculture in some ways. So for the Bene Gesserit, one of the longest lasting institutions in human history, to be like we are farmers. And to then kind of hold that as this proud emblem in spite of the very real costs of what it means to farm, where you again are tailoring everything for your own ends, whether or not you have noble intentions. That's an interesting element to all of this that I just didn't want us to not mention. But again, no shame to farmers. We are humans. I appreciate what you do. I can't eat delicious vegetables without all the work of the farmers. So, thank you. Thank you, farmers.

[B]

Okay, to wrap up this first takeaway, one last bit of criticism. Just sort of zooming out on all of this. Right? We understand the Bene Gesserit see themselves as stewards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On its surface, that's a noble goal. Do their actions always align with that? Maybe not. You could criticize that. I think even zooming out further than that, it's worth simply asking, who the fuck assigned the Sisterhood as the stewards?

[A]

Yeah. They just became farmers. Who made them farmers?

[B]

Who decided this? Right? Who decided someone needed to cultivate humanity's future and treat us like crop and make sure that in 5,000 years, we're thriving?

[A]

Oh, my God. Wait. Holy shit. Also, monocultures, like, they made humanity. They've sculpted humanity for so long, and then Leto has to step in and steer us away from extinction because you made a monoculture Bene Gesserit. Come on, what are you doing? Who gave you the right?

[B]

There have been many mistakes along the way, and I think it is worth asking, who the fuck put you in charge? Maybe we don't want a steward. We certainly don't want owners. Right? We don't want the Honored Matre controlling us through bloodshed and power and greed.

[A]

The Honor Matre are just fucking, like, vagrants. They're just, like, coming in and just eating all the crops. Immediately, the farmer's like, oh, no, no. I want them saving that for winter.

[B]

They're like, no, now, now, now, now, now.

[A]

It's so good getting the juice. All I ordered grubhub.

[B]

It's going to be here in 30 minutes.

[A]

We're having. They're having sex in the crops. Oh, come on.

[B]

Yeah, right? I mean, that's a whole other beast, of course, with the Honored Matres. But I do think there's a question of right to rule. It's like, who decided that the Bene Gesserit are the right people to do this? And has anyone ever questioned that in thousands of years within the Order? And it sounds like no. If anything, they've reinforced this view that we are the stewards. It is our job to do this. We are noble for doing this. And it's only now, here in heretics and Chapter House, that people like o', Draid, Tag, even Taraza, to some extent, are beginning to question that. Has our mission been completely noble this entire time? Maybe it hasn't.

[A]

Juri is out. Yeah. And at the end of the day, Belinda's not happy. I mean, I don't get the impression she was ever happy. Being a no. Yeah. Pissed, constantly. Well, that's our first takeaway. Our second takeaway. Is Duncan. Is he the perfect eggplant? Is he the perfect crop, the most representative of the fruit of humanity?

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Maybe tbd. Well, let's talk about it. So we had really only the intention to talk about the Bene Gesserit as farmers and this whole thing. And then we were looking at that last chapter that we read with Duncan sitting in his chair, thinking, and holy shit. There. There is this sort of resonance there. What a chapter. And I was like fully spiraling by the middle of the chapter, just thinking about all these different things. I was like. I think I said out loud, angrily, what a good book. And my wife was like, why? I was like, let me tell you in six parts. And then I explained the like, nine things that were kind of coming together. But I think what begins is that Duncan has, as he's kind of talking about in this chapter, every memory of every Duncan. He points out the Toileks did not have cells of every Gola he identified. Actually in this chapter he tells us he identified the gaps. And yet there are no gaps in his memories. He has every memory of every Duncan ghola that has ever been. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And those gholas, are they indoctrinated in the schools of the Bene Gesserit? No. Are they wrapped up in some consistent cohesive training or what? Not really. They're all loyal to the Atreides. They're all. But they're all kind of messy humans. They're all like deeply human kind of fucking guys. They're just guys. They're hot. They can climb rock walls really well. But like, they're guys. They're just fellas and a bunch of

[B]

guys who lived varied lives. If you'll recall our episode about the Duncan Idaho's from the Union Encyclopedia. The long trail of Duncans that served Leto too. Man, those Duncans lived wildly unique lives.

[A]

Yeah. Clumsy Duncan, Duncan who was a girl like that. So many Duncans, right? Also, also, like, some of them found love and like grew old and died of old age comfortably with. With their family. It's like they had. They had every variety of. Of life dying horribly in these fights or die, you know, all these. All these different lives. And I. I think what's important, especially as we look at like, Rebecca, who got other memory on her own as a. As a wild Reverend Mother. But then her change as she's introduced to the other memory that is indoctrinated within Bene Gesserit dogma We have in Duncan another example of what it means to have serial lives. Again, Scytale also has serial lives, but Scytale is wrapped up in the. The Yagis, the grand beliefs of the Tleilaxu. He's also wrapped up in dogma. In this kind of like, yes, teachings and religion. Duncan only has himself. And again, here's the juxtaposition. The Bene Gesserit are tempered. Their humanity is constantly consciously tempered, away from that flame, that passion, that immediacy, every step of the way. They don't want to commit the Jessica crime. They don't want to fall in love. They don't want to be victims to their own humanity. But that creates these feedback loops that are so worth dragging into the light and criticizing, because what are you doing if you're not alive? And now we see that they may even. Even be, like, jeopardizing humanity with their. They're trying to have the. The steering wheel of humanity while rejecting it themselves, you know, blind to their hypocrisy. That's rough. Right from the very first book. I think Duncan is representative of a deeply human person. He's sloppy. He's kind of a shitty guy sometimes, right? Drunk on spice beer, stumbling into arcane, going witch like, stupid, I love you. Never mind I hate you. Like, he's a. He's a messy guy. He was homophobic all over God, Emperor of Dune. And in fact, in God Emperor of Dune, I kind of had the feeling of, like, now we are moving on from Duncan as this, like, person to be praised to be. You know, we joked about how hot Duncan was since the first episodes of our podcast. In God, Emperor of Dune, it started to feel uncomfortable because he's also, like, a really shitty, problematic person, but so, too are humans, right? He is slow at times to adjust, but he does adjust and he learns. And in fact, God, Emperor of Dune is fascinating because leto, across his 3,500 years, always had a Duncan. And there was this central question of why. Why does Leto keep bringing back Duncan's. And in retrospect, I think with the vocabulary of this book, we could even say that Duncan is like the Vincent Van Gogh painting for o'. Draid.

[B]

Oh, shit.

[A]

But for Leto, he is the anchor. He is Leto's hold on humanity as Leto's humanity is fading into the distant past, and Leto has left it behind.

[B]

I love that. Yeah.

[A]

Duncan is his. Is his reminder of what that wild human element who sometimes doesn't even manage to throw the grenade during the assassination attempt. You know, he's that messy reminder of what it means to be human and why we're doing this in the first place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like Vincent Van Gogh's painting, right? A reminder of that. Yeah. That core belief, that core value.

[B]

Yeah. That's amazing. What an amazing connection that you've made there, Leo. And the more you explain it, the more I'm like, yeah, obviously that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why bring Duncan back? A lot of folks have wondered that. You know, we've had questions submitted to mailbag episodes. Why Duncan? Why keep bringing Duncan back? What's so special about him? He doesn't seem particularly special. He's just super hot, I guess. And that is one reason, obviously. But obviously, I think you've touched on the true reason here. For Aleto, Duncan had that grounding effect, kept him connected to the messy truth of humanity, much in the way that Cottages of Cordvil does. For Odrade, it reminds her that what happened in the scattering, as she explains to Duncan in that memory what happened in the scattering, the wild outburst of humanity, can never be contained or constrained. And in fact, that is what makes us human. And it's worth celebrating and embracing the wild and the unknown and the new, which, again, very much. We've repeated that line maybe a thousand times at this point on this podcast, very in line with the big themes and ideas that Frank is constantly exploring in these Dune novels. I think another thing that kind of builds the fabric of humanity is just the mundane, everyday experiences. There is a beautiful passage in this chapter with Duncan today that kind of gets at this idea that Duncan's serial lives, his Gola lives that he now has access to, are just full of, like, small moments that are so incredibly special that are what make him human. Mundane things without counting a familiar voice saying, I just want to put my feet up and collapse tonight. Don't ask me to move. That's me. I'm the voice. I do that every night.

[A]

That's me. That's both of us.

[B]

All had become part of him. They were bound into his character. Living had cemented them inextricably, and he could not explain it to anyone. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what makes us human.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Detached, cold, distant, analytical, intellectual approach of the Bene Gesserit and how they utilize their other memory, how Rebecca is utilizing it. And in fact, I wanted to contrast that quote of Duncan talking about the mundane things with a quote from Rebecca. This is Rebecca telling the Rabbi about these newfound other memories that she now has access to thanks to Lucilla, the Lampada's hoard that she's now downloaded right quote, you understand nothing of what has happened to me. My problem, she leaned in close to him. It is to remain human while in contact with all of those past lives. End quote.

[A]

Incredible. Yeah.

[B]

Again, that Bene Gesserit worldview has now flooded her other memories. The speaker is constantly talking to her, reshaping her worldview. And for her, it is a battle to remain connected to humanity because the Bene Gesserit have begun speaking to her internally, whereas Duncan doesn't have that. He simply has his previous Gola lives full of these mundane human experiences. And so I think the broader idea of this takeaway and your proclamation that Duncan is perhaps the ultimate human, the true human who has embraced his humanity fully, we're seeing that play out in the way that these characters are struggling with their versions of other memory that they each have access to.

[A]

Yeah, like Duncan is motivated by a core belief of loyalty, but it's unindoctrinated into a broader control scheme. I think also we could really go back to Taraza and her talk about key logs, because effectively what key logs are is tension built up and the release that happens, the catastrophic cataclysmic release that can happen when that key log is identified and moved. And whether that be the slave master relationship being upended and inverted, whether that be the Bene Gesserit attempt tens of thousands of years to restrain and control the flow of humanity. Right. Let out in measure, I think is the way that it's said in one of these chapters, they release that true. It's not just a Benny, it's a Bene Gesserit mask that then they, like, let out their true feelings in just tiny little bits as intended. What you're doing is you've damned the flow of humanity. You've damned the river. And what then happens? And I think what happens, we see is the honor matre is what happens when you. When you channel all that humanity. You compress it, you. You tighten it, you give it all this power and control you, Prana, bendu, all of this stuff. And then you take away those control mechanisms, you pull out the key log of spice, or whatever it is. Other memory is maybe the key log. And then, boom, you have the honor matre. The pendulum swings. And I think this idea of the pendulum swinging from one extreme to the other is represented in so many ways. And of course, the pendulum stopping its swing at the bottom is a form of stagnation and ultimate end. But as I think that goal, that goal of balance, as I think Rebecca says Our gods must age with us or something along those lines. I think the idea is even these frameworks of what does it mean to be human have to continue to grow and evolve alongside us. And the labels of what does it mean to be human? What does it mean that the Bene Gesserit have this idea of what it means to be human that's 40,000 years old? No, it's like it's all related, it's all interconnected. And I have to keep reminding myself this is a fucking science fiction book. Like, how often do authors kind of key up these sorts of conversations? And yeah, my wife was like, yeah, but you obsess over every fucking word in that book. And yeah, I do. But still, it's just stuff to find. There's layers. It's great. It's very fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just think that, like this book is so much about this balancing of the two extremes, right between the Bene Gesserit who have kind of red taped themselves, they've bureaucrated themselves away from their own humanities and the honor matre who kill on a dime, but they love their food and their decadence and they have sex and they're just, they're all, it's all love and attachment and it's weird. It's like they are the immediate. They're the ones gobbling up the carrots in the field and you're going, oh, come on, we're going to can those and like ferment them a bit. It's going to be delicious. And Duncan, alongside that existential battle, Duncan is wrestling to understand his own mind. He can't talk about this to anybody. Murbella is a little bit too far gone into Bene Gesserit teachings. He's seeing that she's being lost and also she wouldn't get it. I don't think anybody in the history of humanity could understand what Duncan is and how he's feeling. I think of him as like, you know, o' Draid was saying that Van Gogh was relatively unsophisticated in what he had. He all he had was a brush and some pigments that would be familiar to a cave person. Duncan is cut off from a lot of the things that maybe would make his life a little easier. Potent data sources that would give him the answers to his questions. So instead in his isolation, he's having to basically just pose these like, more and more complex questions to get toward the answers that he seeks. But I think what's so key here is that he is working with these very human Pigments that have never been concentrated the way that they are with Duncan. And what is then the painting he's going to paint. And I think that maybe that's a metaphor for what his grand revelation might be, whatever that might end up being. I'm not sure.

[B]

I.

[A]

Also, he teases out something like, there's a mentat mode that mentats have become comatose from going into, because you just are very powerful and you have all the. And he's like, no, no, no, it's not time for that yet. I can't go Super Saiyan quite yet. It's going to kill, you know, it's going to blow up the. Could kill me, you know. So interesting. And yet we don't have any definite answers yet. But we are riding alongside the frantic thoughts of this person who's grappling with his own humanity to a degree that we've never seen before. Yeah, very interesting.

[B]

It's an amazing chapter. I mean, don't tempt us with a good time, dear listener, but this is the kind of chapter that deserves a line by line reading because it is just that dense and there's still so much we're leaving on the table here that unspoken and untalked about. But it's very true. I think the core of what you're getting at here with this takeaway, the idea that Duncan is perhaps the idealized version of someone who has embraced their humanity and the other characters, like o', Draid, are only now coming to terms with that and realizing that is interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This very much supports the argument that Duncan Idaho, main character of the Dune universe.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and maybe not always the case, but, like, certainly at this point. And also, what does it mean that Duncan is having to hide his true nature as a human? Capital H human, really. Perhaps the most human to ever have been. He has to hide that from the Bene Gesserit or they'll kill him. It's like it's all such a condemnation of their dogma and their belief systems.

[B]

Yeah. Great takeaway. All right, folks, that's our second takeaway. Y' all know what's up next. Yeah, Spice morsels.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm sure you can smell them wherever you are. I'm sure you can smell them through your headphones, through your car speakers, through your ears. Hope you're hungry. Through your ears. Hope you're hungry. Hope you're ready to chomp down. We have a couple of interesting spice morsels for you coming up right after a quick break. So stick around. We'll Be right back in just a minute.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail], own the dream.

[A]

Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. I hope you're hungry. We're recording this week of Thanksgiving. Hope you're ready for a feast. Which is to say, there's two spice morsels, so, you know, small bites make them last 2, 20 times. That's a trick. Drink lots of water. And to kick off, let's talk about Leo. Oh, it's me. No, just kidding. We're talking about Leo Tolstoy. So in today's reading, Odrade scolds an acolyte. What are you doing? What are you reading? She's like, Tolstoy's diaries. She's like, you idiot, Tolstoy is a family name.

[B]

Big old dummy. Stupid.

[A]

They're like, oh, Reverend Mother Superior is so mean. But the acolyte who asks the question that everyone's asking, hey, by the way, Tolstoy, is he. Do you have him? Do you have him kicking around in the back? Do you have any Tolstoys in your other memory? And again, we see the acolytes desperate for any glimpse of what it's like to be an awakened Reverend Mother. And Reverend Mother Superior o' Draid can't help it. She delivers.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Shares this tidbit from her other memory. Quote, I am not a river, I am a net. He spoke those words at Yasnaya Polyana when he was only 12. You'll not find them in his diaries, but they are probably the most significant words he ever uttered. End quote. Insane. I mean, beyond the shocking revelation that Odrade has some person from Tolstoy's immediate surroundings, whether it is Tolstoy himself, she wouldn't necessarily have access to his thoughts, but, like, maybe, you know, I don't know, his sister? One of his kids, perhaps? No, not one of his kids. His mother, probably his mother. No, his parents died when he was young. I don't know, a maid, someone, A relative. Doesn't matter. She. We decided. Hey, Tolstoy unfortunately don't know a lot about him. Aboot do you know about Tolstoy? You have a lot of thoughts.

[B]

I know next to nothing, dude. Say outside of Anna Karenina.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

About Tolstoy.

[A]

Never mind. You know more than me because I know of Anna Karenina. I think I've seen. There's a movie adaptation.

[B]

I think there's a. Yeah, there's a movie.

[A]

I think I saw it.

[B]

I haven't seen the movie.

[A]

I don't fucking know, man. We're so unequipped to talk about this, but let's do our best. Let's talk about the man, the myth, the legend to give Odrade's quip a bit more depth. So count live. Nikolaevich Tolstoy, born 1828, was a Russian writer and kind of philosopher and thought leader, known best for his works, his novels War and Peace and Anna Karenina. Now, besides his novels and novellas, and there are others, Britannica states in their kind of summary of his life that later in his life he was a moral and religious teacher. Holy shit. And quote, his doctrine of non resistance to evil had an important influence on the Indian independent leader Mahatma Gandhi. End quote. Ever heard of him? Wild now throughout his life, as o' Draid points out, you're talking about a Tolstoy and you're talking about diaries. You're probably talking about Leo, good old Pope Leo here. And sure enough, Leo Tolstoy kept diaries for like a crazy portion of his life detailing his inner life, his quest for moral clarity in this messy world of moral grays, and his struggles with faith. And sure enough, I like was looking into. You can just buy his diaries or like a book on Amazon. It's like 300 pages of just his thoughts. And I'm like, oh, wow, holy shit. Maybe we should do a book club on Leo Tolstoy's diaries. Maybe they're super relevant to Bene Gesserit teachings. Again, Frank Herbert could have chosen anybody, but he chose Tolstoy in this moment. Probably some resonance that we haven't yet tapped. And listen. Yeah, if you're a fan of Tolstoy out there, you're probably pulling out your hair, screaming at your headphones, you know, full volume in your car on your way to work. We don't fucking know what we're talking about. We are woefully unfamiliar with his game. He balls, apparently. So we're going to put a pin in this and listen. Email us if you think that Tolstoy would be a good subject for this Dune podcast. Send us an email, pitch the episode. We will do it and we will credit the fuck out of you. So send us that email. We'd love to get it. So back to Dune with some of that context in mind. O' Draid tells the acolyte that the words I am not a river, I am a net are his most significant words ever uttered. I thought this was of course, notable, right? The water, river, net imagery that keeps coming up, by the way, Tolstoy uttered those words, apparently at Yasnaya Polyana, the house where he was born and raised, and also where he fathered 13 children, eight of whom survived because it was in the 19th century.

[B]

Okay, Tolstoy fucks fucks.

[A]

He fucks so much. But also, like, I wanted to point out this idea that what is the most resonant thing he said? He said, I am not a river, I am a net. In Odrade's Sea Child inner universe, water is time. It's events, it's fate, it's the undulating qualities of life. And she, as the human, floats atop it and adjusts to it and balances upon it. Right?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Tolstoy reframing himself not as the flowing water, not the river, but the net that catches things along the flow of the river is probably key to why o' Draid is highlighting it for the young acolyte. Think not about being the water, think about being the net. Or think about balancing and having a relationship with the water. What does it mean to be human, young acolyte? And just to wrap up, and again to tease out this possibility of doing a fuller Tolstoy episode, Britannica shares this about his diaries, which I found to be so crazy resonant in relation to the Bene Gesserit and the themes of Dune. Okay, quote. The early diaries record a fascination with rulemaking, as Tolstoy composed rules for diverse aspects of social and moral behavior. They also record the writer's repeated failure to honor these rules, his attempts to formulate new ones designed to ensure obedience to old ones, and his frequent acts of self castigation. Tolstoy's later belief that life is too complex and disordered ever to conform to rules or philosophical systems perhaps derives from these futile attempts at self regulation. End quote. And holy shit, isn't that just an embodiment of some of these themes? The idea of the Bene Gesserit trying to, like, tamp down things and then failing time and time again only to, like, create new rules. Missing the point that being human is too messy a thing to tamp down. I don't know.

[B]

Just saying he's just saying folks.

[A]

I'm just saying, folks. Leo out here spitting bars. Not even me. The other one. The other Leo. Not the Pope. This Tolstoy. That guy.

[B]

Power ranking of Leos in all of history. Well, let's start it now. Wiggins one.

[A]

Thank you. Oh, thank you. S rank Tolstoy two, Pope three. That's pretty bold. Wow. No, I think I would give the top spot to. We'll see what the Pope does. We gotta get to the end of his chapters before we judge too much.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Right now, Tolstoy maybe one and then maybe me too.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

Okay, this podcast is pretty good.

[B]

It's a pretty fire podcast.

[A]

It's a pretty fire podcast.

[B]

You know, send us your power rankings of Leos in history.

[A]

Oh, no, I'm not even going to be on the list.

[B]

All right, morsel number two, folks. To wrap up today's episode, let's talk briefly about nomadic tubes. In today's reading, we get this thought from Odrade about the nomadic tube system on Chapter House Planet. Odrade disliked tubes for personal transport. You were so closed in and helpless. She preferred surface or air and used tubes only when speed was urgent. She had no hesitation about using smaller tubes for chits and notes. Notes don't care just as long as they get there. End quote.

[A]

True. That's what I always say about notes.

[B]

So these tubes, actually, this isn't the first mention of them. They've been mentioned a few times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this is maybe the most information we've gotten about them. So let's chat a little bit in this morsel about the history of pneumatic tubes in sci fi.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

So, first off, nomadic tubes are a real thing, by the way. This is not a made up sci fi concept. They were actually kind of the hot new technology on the block for a little bit. And in fact, the real technology is what inspired their inclusion in so much sci fi. Right, so this technology was invented by William Murdoch in 1799, believe it or not. But it was patented by Josiah latimer Clark in 1854 as a means for conveying letters or parcels.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now, this technology was quickly embraced by stock exchanges in particular, as an effective way of sending and receiving information from one building to another quickly and easily and cheaply. Apparently, by 1880, there were over 21 miles of tubes in London.

[A]

Whoa. Dang.

[B]

That's a lot of. That's a lot of tubage, folks.

[A]

A lot of tubage.

[B]

Now, by the 1970s and 80s, pneumatic tubes could be found at banks for depositing checks and getting cash. These actually still exist, by the way. I've used one at banks in Ohio and stuff. Like you can go to a bank and do this.

[A]

Well, that's just saying Ohio's stuck in the 80s.

[B]

Yeah. In the 1800s, actually. In the 1880s.

[A]

1880s, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I have thoughts about Ohio and they are not kind. But these tubes are real. They exist. You can go to a bank and use them. And so it's not far fetched to assume that Frank probably use them as well for banking. Probably.

[A]

I was talking to my dad about pneumatic tubes and he was like, yeah, it's cool. You go to the bank and you're like depositing a check or something. You get one, you put the check in, it sucks away, it sucks up.

[B]

And then a thing comes back and you open the door and you take your check out or your receipt out. It's actually kind of fun. Now, by the 1960s, continuing our history of pneumatic tubes, by the 60s, Lockheed Corporation was looking in fact at the possibility of vac trains using similar, you know, vacuum technology.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these trains would theoretically connect Philadelphia and New York. You'd get on this like suction cup of a train and get shot all the way to Philadelphia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those obviously never came to be those.

[A]

They're too expensive.

[B]

They gave up. Not that I know of actually. But I don't know if there's a tube out there that I can get sucked into. Let me know, folks. I want to experience that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. In my research I was seeing that the vac trains are still something that people are looking into. And some of the conversations about actually high speed rail in California are talking about low friction, vacuum sealed tubes for trains and a way to speed up. Because Even in the 1960s it was like two or three times faster than a lot of other train technologies. Really cool.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But very expensive and impractical. So they didn't.

[B]

Yeah. Now one more factoid here about the history of this technology about vacuum sealed transportation. In 2002 we saw the creation of the first pneumatic elevators.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these were an alternative solution to the heavy engineering necessary for traditional elevators that you and I used to this day. But it turns out they're pretty small and they're kind of slow. They're not ideal. So obviously they have not replaced the traditional elevators that humans move around in just because the tech wasn't there.

[A]

Yeah. Or they're used in like personal houses and stuff like that. To get from one floor to the other. And it's not like a cool we've. Yeah, so that's also why we don't see that in like fancy ass buildings.

[B]

It's not in like a skyscraper. Right? Yeah. You're not going to take a pneumatic elevator up to the 82nd floor of World Trade center or something?

[A]

Personal abodes. Sure. And there's cool pictures. If you look up pneumatic elevators. There's really cool pictures of them. They look great. They look very cool, very sci fi. But like they're. They're not practical for. I just want to make clear we're not talking about Futurama, right? We're not talking like, oh yeah, I'm going to the 74th floor. Like, you know, and then you're there. Yeah, that's not what we're talking about. There's love. They're normal.

[B]

Right, Right. But the bank ones aren't slow.

[A]

Bank ones are fast, folks.

[B]

Go to your local bank is all I'm saying. Use those dupes. It's fun. I guess if you're in Ohio, if you're in like a state that is actually in the 21st century, then I don't know, go, go make a road trip to Ohio. Visit the past.

[A]

No, I'm good.

[B]

I don't recommend a road trip to Ohio.

[A]

Hard pass on that one, friend.

[B]

So there you go, folks. There's a brief history on pneumatic tubes and it's fun to see their presence here in the Dune universe as well.

[A]

Yeah, indeed. I also, I just appreciated that, like Odrade opting for more traditional methods rather than the technology as the solution to everything. It's cool. I like this consistency in her character. It's very neat. Anyway, well, that's our episode. That's where this episode ends.

[B]

That was a dense one, man.

[A]

God damn it. That episode with that, that chapter with Duncan is so dense but so good. And I'm so glad we had a chance to talk about it. So much fun. So many resonant thoughts. I feel like two or three full episodes could have been the conversations today.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

But for our next episode, dear listener, we have some assigned reading for you. Our next episode's gonna be covering chapters 25 through 27 in the ACE paperback edition. Or if your version is different than ours, read to the end of the chapter that ends in the sentence quote. Why did Idaho have to remind them of that just now? End quote.

[B]

Oh my God. Give me more Idaho chapters.

[A]

More Idaho chapters, please. Yeah, the. That's the chapter read to the end of that and and we'll talk about it on the next episode.

[B]

That's right. All right, before we let you go, a couple of quick reminders, folks. The two best ways to support this podcast are one to become a patron patreon.com Gom Jabbar you get ad free episodes. You get early access to book clubs and a bunch of other goodies. Of course, you also get invited to the Discord where we have a very active and nerdy community of Dune and science fiction lovers. Definitely join that Discord. If you're playing Dune Awakening, by the way, there's like a group in there that's always in voice chat, I've noticed. Just like playing together. I love it. I love that y' all are coming together in that game. And the second best way to support this show is to check out all of the incredible Dune themed merch on our merch store, gomjabbar Shop. All those links are in the show notes, so check them out and help us continue making this podcast.

[A]

Indeed. And we love to hear from you. Email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com do you want us to talk about Leo Tolstoy? Do you have thoughts about farmers? Do you like farmers? Do you hate farmers? Tell us. Send us emails. Gamjabbarpodcastmail.com that is our email address. That's not changing. And we always love to hear from you. Also pay the pet tax. Show us your pets. They're so cute. We love to see pets, pictures of whatever.

[B]

Especially if they're pets on a farm.

[A]

Oh, pets on a farm.

[B]

For cute pets on a farm.

[A]

Big pets.

[B]

Bonus, bonus points for working dogs on a farm. I love watching videos of dogs working.

[A]

Also jobs. Also any pets, Cow pets, pig pets, horse pets. Oh donkey pets, goat pets are cute. All of the pets. We love pets.

[B]

We love them.

[A]

So send us those thoughts, those questions, those pets. Gonjabarpodcastmail.com.

[B]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lower Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore underscore Party. And of course we're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path Sa.