Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 10)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Episode Summary Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 10)
Release Date: March 21, 2025
Hosted by Abu and Leo

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Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo delve into Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune. As they navigate through the complex layers of the narrative, the hosts offer insightful analyses, engaging discussions, and thought-provoking interpretations of pivotal moments in the novel. Skipping over the introductory and advertisement segments, the episode primarily focuses on summarizing key chapters, unpacking significant messages, and exploring thematic elements that resonate throughout the story.

Chapter Summaries

Chapter 28: Odrade and Albertus

[05:54] Leo:
Leo begins by summarizing a tense encounter between Odrade and Albertus, a senior priest of the Rakis priesthood. Their meeting is fraught with tension as Odrade asserts her dominance:

"Odrade: I really regret not having you fucking killed.
Albertus: Fucking what? Excuse me, ma'am."

[06:15] Abu:
Abu highlights Odrade's formidable presence and strategic mindset, noting her ability to destabilize the priesthood's authority through psychological prowess.

"Odrade: A first-year Bene Gesserit acolyte could have handled him... just the janitor on Wallach 9 could take care of this dude easily."

This exchange underscores the ongoing tension between the Bene Gesserit and the Rakis priesthood, reflecting Herbert's critique of institutionalized religions and dogma.

Chapter 29: Dynamics in the Harkonnen No-Globe

[11:59] Abu:
Moving to the Harkonnen no-globe, the hosts describe the strained interactions among characters Teg, Duncan Idaho, and Lucilla. The atmosphere is likened to a sitcom, filled with awkward and heated exchanges.

"Lucilla: Tried to use the Voice on Duncan, but it didn't work.
Duncan: I will not be your stud. I'm not just some breeding toy for you to play with."

Duncan's resistance to Lucilla's Bene Gesserit methods signifies his pivotal role in challenging existing power structures. The confrontation escalates when Teg enters with a gun, only to reveal it's unloaded, adding a layer of suspense and dark humor to the scene.

Detailed Discussion of Leto’s Message

Discovery in Sietch Tabur

[28:22] Abu:
The episode delves deep into Odrade's discovery of Leto II's secret chamber within Sietch Tabur. The message left by Leto is a critical plot point that foreshadows future conflicts and existential threats to the Bene Gesserit.

"Odrade: 'A Reverend Mother will read my words.'"

Abu and Leo analyze the implications of this message, questioning whether it was specifically intended for Odrade or meant for any Bene Gesserit member capable of deciphering its meaning. The ambiguity of Leto's message suggests a broader warning about the stagnation and potential downfall of the sisterhood.

[36:17] Leo:
Leo reflects on Leto's use of the word "bequeath," indicating that the message was intended to be discovered posthumously, adding a layer of urgency and destiny to its contents.

"Leto's Message: 'I bequeath to you my fear and loneliness...'"

Implications for the Bene Gesserit

[38:36] Leo:
The hosts discuss the existential threat posed to the Bene Gesserit, as outlined in Leto's message. They speculate on the necessity for the sisterhood to adapt and evolve to ensure their survival.

"Abu: 'What if... survival if you do not survive whole.'
'Leo: 'Memories are not enough unless they call you to noble purpose.'"

This segment underscores Herbert's recurring theme of the importance of purposeful evolution and the dangers of institutional inertia.

Spice Morsels

Gehenna

[68:32] Abu:
Abu introduces a spice morsel explaining the term Gehenna, drawing parallels between its historical significance and its portrayal in Dune.

"Gehenna is akin to Hell, originally a valley where children were sacrificed to Moloch. Over time, it became a garbage dump, symbolizing the transformation from a place of sacrifice to one of waste and condemnation."

This historical context enriches the listeners' understanding of Leto's title, "Emperor of Gehenna," highlighting the blend of divine authority and damnation.

RFL

[71:40] Abu:
The hosts explore the acronym RFL, connecting it to its mention in both Heretics of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

"RFL translates to 'the cloud darkness of holy judgment.' In God Emperor of Dune, it plays a significant role in Leto II's final moments, hinting at its thematic importance in the narrative."

Leo reminisces about the usage of RFL in previous discussions, emphasizing its symbolic weight in the overarching storyline.

Conclusion and Homework

[74:59] Abu:
As the episode winds down, Abu and Leo assign reading homework for the next episode, encouraging listeners to explore Chapter 33 to uncover the unfolding developments.

"Homework: Read through Chapter 33, which culminates in the ghola moving and leaving the no-globe, setting the stage for upcoming events."

They also invite listeners to engage with their interpretations of Leto's message, fostering a community of discussion and analysis.

Notable Quotes

• [06:45] Abu:
  “It feels very intentional from Frank's part. Again, in line with a lot of the critiques we've talked about with the priesthood and Frank's opinions on institutionalized and dogmatic religions.”

• [08:20] Abu:
  “He was not prepared. And herberating leaves him on his knees.”

• [16:37] Abu:
  “You can't use me for your breeding programs.”

• [36:04] Abu:
  “What could it mean?”

• [39:03] Leo:
  “Maybe I don't want to freak her out that bad that much.”

• [44:46] Leo:
  “Memories are not enough unless they call you to noble purpose.”

• [54:36] Abu:
  “...the future of humanity hinges on this. Odrade.”

Key Insights

• Institutional Critique:
  The episode highlights Frank Herbert's ongoing critique of rigid institutions and dogmatic practices, particularly through the interactions between the Bene Gesserit and other factions like the Rakis priesthood and the Tleilaxu.

• Leto’s Eternal Influence:
  Leto II's legacy continues to shape the Bene Gesserit, with his cryptic messages serving as both guidance and warnings about the sisterhood's path forward.

• Adaptation and Survival:
  The discussion emphasizes the necessity for the Bene Gesserit to evolve beyond their secretive and manipulative tactics to ensure their survival amidst mounting existential threats.

• Thematic Depth:
  Herbert's exploration of themes like fear, loneliness, and the quest for a noble purpose resonate through the hosts' analysis, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of the narrative's complexity.

Conclusion

Abu and Leo deliver a comprehensive and engaging analysis of Heretics of Dune, focusing on pivotal chapters and their broader implications within the Dune universe. Their discussion not only summarizes key events but also invites listeners to ponder the underlying themes and future directions of the Bene Gesserit. As the hosts prepare to delve into the next chapter, listeners are left with thought-provoking questions about destiny, institutional decay, and the enduring legacy of one of science fiction's most intricate sagas.

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For more detailed discussions and to share your interpretations of Leto's messages, reach out to Abu and Leo via email at gomtabarpodcastmail.com or join the conversation on their Discord channel. Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and support the podcast through patronage or merchandise from their merch store.

Transcript

[Leo]

Why did your sisterhood not produce the podcast? You knew the necessity. Your failure condemned me, the God Emperor, to millennia of production despair and sponsorships from manscaped. I don't have anything to scape.

[Abu]

Oh. Oh, Lator, are you saying you took. Have a penis?

[Leo]

I don't have genitals. He keeps bringing it up at dinner. Leito, please.

[Abu]

Constantly. Can you imagine? Moneo has to hear this every single day.

[Leo]

Yes, Lord. Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, yeah. I wrote it down. I wrote it down. I wrote it down. It's right here. Yeah, I have it underlined. Bold, you said. Okay. Accent it. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name is Abu.

[Leo]

And today on the show, we are continuing our deep dive into the pages of Heretics of Dune.

[Abu]

That's right. We're over the halfway point, folks.

[Leo]

Wild. Really wild. Genuinely wild. Feeling heretical, too. Halfway through the book, I'm like, yeah, let's disobey some institutions. I'm into it. This is great.

[Abu]

Yeah. Hell yeah, brother.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah, brother.

[Abu]

Well, here's one thing we can't disobey. We gotta take care of housekeeping.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Before we get into today's episode, starting with our spoiler warning for today, which by now you all know. No spoilers in today's conversation beyond the pages and books that we've covered thus far. So as long as you have read up through Heretics of Dune and today's assigned chapters, you're good to listen.

[Leo]

Indeed you are. And, of course, a huge, massive, hidden spice room message of gratitude. And thanks to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Cabalo, Jonathan Lambert, and C.R. spruill. Folks, if you were in our secret spice chamber. It's not a euphemism. Don't think about it too much. You would find messages all over the walls about how appreciative we are.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Of you and how you support us and what we do. On Go.

[Abu]

Thank you. Wow, you're looking great.

[Leo]

Yeah. You're like.

[Abu]

Did you do something with your hair?

[Leo]

It's written on the wall. You look great. It's like, thanks. It feels shallow, feels hollow. And of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons, so every person who supports us, thank you. We could not do what we do without you. As it says on the walls. Of course.

[Abu]

Yeah, it says it on the walls. Yep. Housekeeping. Right on the walls. You know, in our chambers.

[Leo]

We're not even reading this from the script. We're reading it from the walls of our chambers.

[Abu]

Just staring at the wall of my studio for sure. Okay, housekeeping out of the way. Y'all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We will begin today with a summary of the chapters. Then we're going to dive into one enormous secret room full of spice filled takeaway. And then we'll wrap up with a couple of yummy, nutritious and delicious, which is also a synonym for yummy spice morsels. Before we get into all of that though, let's take a quick breather. Let's prepare ourselves for today's chapters. We'll see you in a minute. Still getting around to that fix on your car? You got this on ebay, you'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers. Ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that. Ebay things people love. Eligible items only exclusion supply. Go further with the American Express Business Gold Card.

[Leo]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's get into the assigned reading for today's episode, starting with chapter 28. Now, our first chapter today is a short one. We are on a worm with WAF, Shiana and O'Draid. This Uber is a. This is an uncomfortable Uber for sure. Now O'Draid is her. Her mind's bouncing all around. She's hardcore wool gathering on this ride as she thinks back on an eventful and potentially dangerous conversation she had with Albertus, a senior priest of the rakis priesthood that happened in Daris Balat earlier in the day. So this is kind of a flashback to just before we picked up with her, Shanna and Waugh in the desert now, right? Albertus was sent to bring O'Draid the message that Shiana was delayed, which felt okay. Intentional. Especially because, oh, Draid's like, oh, he's not alone. Oh, I might be assassinated.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

Fun. Nice light hearted meeting between O'Draid and Albertus. Now, reading the situation and understanding the literal mortal peril, Odrade pulls off just a bonkers power move. And she's like, hey, Albertus, I really regret not having you fucking killed.

[Abu]

Oh.

[Leo]

And Albertus is like, fucking what? Excuse me, Excuse me, ma'am. And she proceeds to read him to filth. An absolutely brutal demonstration of her interpersonal savvy and ability to just tear apart someone. I love the line. She's like a first year Bene Gesserit acolyte. Could have handled him. Like he's so unimpressive intellectually that yeah, just the janitor on Wallach 9 could take care of this dude easily.

[Abu]

Right? Which seems to be a bit of a running theme for the racist priesthood in this book. Yeah, Between Tuek, between Dormund. Like there's all of these guys that are either talking too much or not talking enough or are just don't know how to handle a situation. Don't know how to talk to a girl when a Bene Gesserit sister walks in the door. All of that feels very intentional from Frank's part. Again, in line with a lot of the critiques we've talked about with the priesthood and Frank's opinions on institutionalized and dogmatic religions.

[Leo]

Yeah, 100%. Also listening to you explain how kind of like bro y the rakis priesthood is. I bet there are so many senior priests who are like, we should start a podcast. We have such good conversations. Should we like, we should have a podcast.

[Abu]

Let's do it. Let's crack open a can of holy wine and just, let's just talk sports.

[Leo]

Got liquid death cans on their side tables. Yeah. It's really an incredible moment, the way that Odrade is able to see all of these supposed secrets just written all over Albertus face. And there's a genuinely hilarious line. And I'm so glad you pulled this and put this in the script. He was not prepared. And herberating leaves him on his knees. He literally falls to his knees. Here's the quote, quote. Albertus had entered that fully revelatory phase where fear gripped his scrotum.

[Abu]

So what?

[Leo]

End quote. Also, same girl. That is scary. Having a Benny Jesuit hit you with that line. That's nuts.

[Abu]

Terrifying.

[Leo]

Now, in her admonishing of Albertus, Odrade invokes Shiana's name a Number of times.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Feels very notable to bring up Shiana's name and to focus the priesthood on Shiana. Again, this is. We are watching Missionaria Protectiva stuff happen. She is guiding energies and focusing and saying, this person is going to be a lever that I can then control you with. Right. And of course it works on the priest. She's like, well, you wouldn't want to upset the holy child, would you, Albertus? You really gonna upset the messenger from God, priest?

[Abu]

Yeah. You're asking me why we're going out into the desert on a worm today?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Because she said so.

[Leo]

Because she said.

[Abu]

Are you questioning?

[Leo]

It sounds. Albertus, it sounds like you're questioning Shiona.

[Abu]

Maybe I should have had your ass killed, huh?

[Leo]

Yeah. It's so excellent. I also, I do love the line where he's like, forgive me. And she's like, you're a priest. Don't ask me for forgiveness. Like, it's so funny. Excellent. Oh, Draid is such a good character. Now, Ohrade knows to wrap up this little flashback. Oh, Draid knows that the priests are fully in bed with the Tleilaxu. Right. I mean, again, earlier, the whole High Priest Tuek and. And Waf listening in on their conversation and everything that's going on. So this move, this conversation with Albertus, for her, secures this sort of tenuous balance on Arrakis and makes sure that the Bene Gesserit, you know, intentions are protected and, you know, I don't know, secured from any possible falling out sort of thing.

[Abu]

It's a very loose tripod of an alliance. Right. Between the Tleilaxi, the Bene Gesserit and the priesthood. The. None of these people actually want to work with each other and frankly, pretty openly don't like each other. And yet here on Arrakis, Odrade has basically, like, bullied her way into getting all of these groups to work together somewhat under the name of Shiana as well. Yeah. And this chapter and this conversation with Albertus is just part of maintaining that very rocky alliance between these groups in order to get to the end goal, in order to see Tarazah's plan through.

[Leo]

Yeah. The idea of an unstable tripod is such a good way to put it for sure. That very. It's just a spark away from being gone and done.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So Odrade sends Albertus away with a message from the Bene Gesserit to the priesthood. Fall in line or die. Basically. Like, stop fucking around. Stop trying to kill us or whatever. Obey or die. And it's heard loud and clear. And after their confrontation, Odrade is confident that the raking priesthood is going to be fully in line. They're going to play along. They're going to be the servants they need to be for the Bene Gesserit, with only the few, quote, immune heretics, end quote. As a danger, as a threat. Which, of course feels very appropriate in the book Heretics of Dune. Yes, Somehow heretics are popping up everywhere.

[Abu]

They're everywhere.

[Leo]

They're everywhere.

[Abu]

Then that's chapter 28.

[Leo]

There we are.

[Abu]

Our next chapter, chapter 29 is back in the Harkonnen no globe with our gang. This is. At this point, this is a sitcom. We got Teg, we got Duncan, and we got Lucilla.

[Leo]

Season two, the writing gets better.

[Abu]

Season two, not much has changed in the temperature of the no Globe here. Lucilla still mad, still trying to seduce Duncan. Tegan Duncan still doing a lot of training together basically every single day. And things are kind of awkward and heated. In fact, we join Tegan Duncan here at the start of the chapter, right after a fight between Duncan and Lucilla had taken place. Lucilla presumably being forward once again, Duncan rebuffing her once again. Duncan even reveals to Teg that Lucilla tried to use the Voice on him and it just didn't work. Yeah, he knows how to counteract the Voice, he claims, because of training from Paul Atreides, which is interesting. Yeah, we never got that in the books. But presumably at some point, Paul and Duncan practice together, so he's able to resist the Voice from Lucilla. Teg worries that she might try to go further than the Voice. She might actually resort to violence, and this even feels ickier, but perhaps even forcing herself upon Duncan in a violent act in order to complete her orders. But Duncan kind of brushes this aside and is not worried about it at all. He actually thinks that would go against her orders to force anything to happen. And it's actually super important that she seduce him in the proper Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Method, I was going to say. Also, we find out later, right. Teg kind of ascertains what her orders are. She couldn't force, that she can't accomplish the. Like making him irresistible to women through force. So we're kind of. We know by the end of the chapter that just like Duncan, that that is not really that much of a risk, at least right now.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. But Teg very much playing the father figure here, worried about Duncan's well being with the pressure sort of coming to a boiling point. In this noglobe, we cut to Lucilla for a little bit. For a couple of paragraphs. We're inside her head. We get a sense of how frustrated she is. She's in her quarters just musing over how to deal with Tag, who continues to obstruct her, how to deal with Duncan, and how to make this all work within Taraz's plan. Her mind is sort of all over the place. She is, at one point, clearly just, like, turned on by the thought of seducing Teg. Once again, he is just such an attractive man.

[Leo]

He's hot. We get it.

[Abu]

He's hot. Imagine a more mature maybe not even more mature. Maybe just imagine Oscar Isaac.

[Leo]

Just Oscar Isaac.

[Abu]

Six foot ten. Oscar Isaac.

[Leo]

Six, ten. Oscar Isaac. Be still my beating heart. My God.

[Abu]

I know. Be still Lucilla's beating heart here as well. But she's like, okay, stop thinking about Teg. I gotta focus on Duncan. Speaking of Duncan, we cut to him after he's taken a shower. He's in the dressing room outside, taking a moment to relax with his thoughts, collect himself. And I'm sure no sexy ladies that you've been trapped with for weeks and months will walk in and try to seduce you. Alas, I'm wrong. That's exactly what happens. So Lucilla walks in, and she immediately begins to just lightly touch Duncan's shoulder and kind of brush up against him. And she notes how rich the fabric of his tunic is that he's wearing right now.

[Leo]

Hence yourself, lady. Personal space. Come on.

[Abu]

Literally. Literally. Duncan's like, bro, don't fucking touch me. Yeah, I need you to back up. Don't touch me. I will not be a stud for the Bene Gesserit. Something he said many times, if you'll recall, to Leto, too. I will not be your stud. I'm not just some breeding toy for you to play with.

[Leo]

Leito. I fuck for fun. All right?

[Abu]

I fuck for fun.

[Leo]

Yeah. On my own terms. All right, everyone, sure. But, like, you know, for fun, on my own terms.

[Abu]

So it is fun to kind of see the parallels here. Lucilla is coming up against the same obstacles that Leito 2 faced with his own Duncan Cola as well. I won't be your stud.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

You can't use me for your breeding programs. And in fact, he makes it very clear, Lucilla, I will try to kill you if you try to seduce me. And if this gets more aggressive and he admits, look, you're a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. Unlikely that I'll win, unlikely that I'll be able to kill you and walk away unharmed. But I will try to kill you so hard that you will have no choice but to kill me in self defense.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's going to blow up all of your plans. So let's not go there. A wild threat.

[Leo]

Yeah, a wild threat. And also, just the writing in this chapter, I kind of felt a little bit all over the place, the idea of, like, I'm gonna go to the showers alone, see a Teg. I was like, oh, that feels like such a clear, obvious setup for this moment.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then the moment where Duncan says to Teg, like, that's where I was tortured by the Harkonnens. I was like, yeah, okay, okay, sure. But this moment, I agree. I really enjoyed. I really liked the way it was written. I liked the way that Lucilla reacted to it. It felt very, very serious and had that sort of air of like, I don't know. It was very grounded in Duncan's character and I thought, very satisfying.

[Abu]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think once it got to this point, basically, once it got to Duncan's threat to kill Lucilla if she continues, this chapter got, like, immediately went from 0 to 60 in a great way.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed.

[Abu]

Because it's at this point that Lucilla realizes, oh, my gosh, he is actually resistant to the Voice. And the fallback plan that I might have had isn't going to work. So here we go. We got to go with plan D, folks. The truth, after all of this, I'm just going to open up to him. And so she tells Duncan what she knows of the Bene Gesserit plan, which, again, is not a lot. Lucilla is kept very much out of the loop of the larger picture. Much like all of the pieces and parts in Taraz's plan. It's very neat to know. But she does tell him what she does know and what she has deduced thus far. And as we know, it has to do with Sciata. There is a young girl on Rakkis, barely into her teens. Her name is Shiana. The worms of Rakis obey her. Somehow the Sisterhood must gather this talent into its own store of abilities. End quote. Mmm.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

Yeah, interesting. And the implication, of course, being that Duncan plays some part in getting Shiana into the Bene Gesserit fold or getting Shanna's abilities into the Bene Gesserit fold.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's at this point here, at the end of the chapter, that Teg enters. He has heard some of this conversation, and he announces that Controlling the worms in this way is risky because it could revive what he refers to as the old religion.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Lucilla turns around and is like, oh, shit, is that a gun?

[Leo]

An absolutely incredible moment. Yeah.

[Abu]

An incredible moment. Teg has walked in with a fucking heart. Harkonnen Lei's gun aimed right at Lucilla. And it's clear that we have hit the pot is boiling over. At this point in this no globe, there's no more talking happening. Guns are being pointed.

[Leo]

It's wild in the sitcom when guns come out.

[Abu]

Right. This is the season of the sitcom where the writers were like, everything. Throw everything at the wall.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We don't know if we're gonna get renewed next year. Just get it all out now.

[Leo]

Duncan's like, I'm not sure I can beat you. Tag's like, I know a way to be sure I can beat you. Sup?

[Abu]

Now, at gunpoint or at lay's gunpoint. Tag manages to get a tiny bit more detail out of Lucilla. She also confesses that part of her assignment from Taraza is to make Duncan Idaho irresistible to women.

[Leo]

The fucking easiest job ever. What?

[Abu]

Which. Yeah. What?

[Leo]

He already was.

[Abu]

He kind of comes prepackaged like that.

[Leo]

So out of the box. Vanilla. He's right there. Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

But again, the implication there, seemingly, is to make him irresistible to Shiana.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And to have them breed together.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Echoes of Siona and Duncan from God Emperor here.

[Leo]

Yeah. True.

[Abu]

Teg then reveals that he has been communicating with Bruce. Molly, actually, and they've set up a rendezvous point in order to get Duncan off planet. It's time. We're waiting around in the snow globe. Finally.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so how about we all stop bickering? I'm the one holding the gun, remember? Okay. And I'm assigning the homework.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Everyone memorize the goddamn maps.

[Leo]

Go to your room.

[Abu]

All been. Study the maps. And then study the maps that we've all been building out together of the surrounding area.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And commit them to memory just in case.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We have a plan. If things go sideways, you need to know your surrounding area and the safe spots that you can go to that we can maybe find you. You know, backups and, you know, backup plans for everything here.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

It's also at this point, hilariously, that Teg reveals he kind of just, like, pops open the gun. He's like, there was actually nothing in here. This is. It's not even loaded. I don't even know if this fucking thing works. And Lucilla, furious, of course, tells her that if she fails to imprint Duncan. This failure is going to be on his head. Okay? This is now your fucking fault.

[Leo]

Right? Right.

[Abu]

And presumably you get to tell Taraza that we fucked up here. To which Teg just kind of shrugs and replies like, hey, I'm doing what's required of me in this situation. I'm following my instincts and doing what I think is best. And that's where the chapter ends.

[Leo]

Yeah, very, very exciting chapter. And definitely the moment where he reveals that the lase gun's not loaded and he just leans it in the corner is so funny. Yeah, it's so excellent. He's like, oh, yeah. Anyway, that prop is done. Really excellent. Our final chapter. Today we are back with Odrade, Shiana and Waff. I know we were wondering what was happening in that Uber ride. And they are still in the worm. Odrade is still trying to figure out how. How controlling the worms works. And Waf still spouting religious stuff constantly.

[Abu]

I found this so funny.

[Leo]

Just every few minutes, like, as God intends. It's like, okay, yes, we get it and God will judge us. Okay, yes, fine, just write in silence. Like, I don't. Okay.

[Abu]

In his holy mission.

[Leo]

It really reminds me of the edits. I don't know if you've seen the, like, Stilgar interrupting Paul Muadib edit. It's excellent. But that's the idea. It's like just every few minutes, she's like, got stop. Jesus.

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, Draid. So fed up.

[Leo]

Yeah, she's literally fed up. And we're told about that, which is great. Now the worm stops at a chunk of the Serrear wall. So this big thing that used to be where the perigonation peregrination was along, the thing that Leto fell off of and died. This wall, the wall that Duncan climbed, as it turns out, uh, they stop at this intact portion of the wall, and Shiana's like, okay, worms chatting with me. Worm says, get off. We're all getting off. And they're like, okay, I guess. Sure.

[Abu]

Okay. Yep.

[Leo]

We don't know why, we don't know where we are, but this is where the worm has led them. It, like, goes between two big rocks and leaves them in this very specific place. So they're looking around. There's a big fissure in the wall, a big crack in the wall. And it's kind of conspicuous. It's like, smooth, like someone made this. And they're poking around and then there's an avalanche of sand. Very Jessica and Paul in the desert the first time when she gets like, Buried and he has to dig her out. Kind of felt the same because there's this avalanche of sand. They're, like, pulled into this cavern, which we will discover is Sietchtabur. But they're pulled in and, like, Waff is half buried. Fucking incredible. One of the funniest moments in the.

[Abu]

Book so far, oh, my goodness.

[Leo]

Is Waff yelling out, I'm half buried in the sand. Help. Help. And Odrade going, God must have wanted it iconic. She's so funny. That is the best response. And also then you imagine Waff is, like, still half buried in sand and he's like, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

What is he gonna say to that?

[Leo]

No, you're wrong. No, yeah.

[Abu]

He's like, you're the one spouting religious for the last, like, three hours.

[Leo]

Like, it is so funny. I love just Odraid is such a good character. This is excellent. And the thopters that have been following them, right? The ornithopters that have been following them, they land to, like, kind of rescue this little crew who've fallen into the siege. But they're still kind of looking for ways, like, we gotta go get some rope. We don't have the stuff on us right now to get you out. And Odrade investigates. She looks around using. And I thought this was so cool. Mapping other memories of Sietch Tabur to the, like, dilapidated ruins of the siet. So cool, so cool. I'm like, this would be a great scene to see adapted into a TV show or something.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Visually, that could be really awesome. Now Odrade searches the area and she gives Shiana the task of, like, keep an eye on Waff. I'm going to go off on my own because she has this, like, it's. It's interesting. I'm not sure if this is like, her Atreides prescient sort of manifesting or something, but she has this, like, miasma of fear. She's like, there is a thing here that is dangerous and a threat and I need to find out what it is. And, yeah, she's looking through. She is finding these, like, mummified bodies of people who had killed themselves. It seems like ceremonial sacrifices kind of. But then she finds, like, the remnants of a battle. Like people were fighting each other in this area. It's all very mysterious and very spooky. The whole. The whole vibe is very spooky. And during her investigation, she actually finds the word arafel burned into the floor or something, which means, quote, the cloud darkness at the end of the universe. End quote. Which is something we'll mention again in our morsels. But that is the beginning clue that leads her to a secret chamber containing a message from Leto to himself.

[Abu]

Chills.

[Leo]

Could have been an email is etched on the walls. We are going to be looking at that in depth as our takeaway today. You probably could have seen that coming without prescience. You know that we were going to talk about this, so hang tight. This is genuinely one of the most incredible chapters of a book that I've read. It's just so good the way it's.

[Abu]

Written, the tension, the way that her spidey sense is acting as this radar that tells her, no, that hallway isn't making me as scared as this hallway. I got to go down this one.

[Leo]

Cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's so cool. It's genuinely. There's like, there's like a sense of adventure in this chapter and discovery that I feel when I'm playing something like, gosh, I don't even know what to compare it to. Like the Uncharted games, almost like this sense of like I'm unlocking a puzzle and I'm using history and clue. There's clues left behind. And what could this arrow mean pointing to that? I loved it. It's written so well. The sense of discovery is awe inspiring. And then when you get to this reveal at the end.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Secret room full of spice.

[Leo]

Full of spice. And she's like pushing through it. She's like waist deep in the most valuable substance in the galaxy and she's like, fuck out of here, gold. I'm like reading a message.

[Abu]

Right. She has to like keep moving spice aside to reveal more and more of the message. Like, it's so good. I mean, this is one of my all time favorite chapters across the entire Dune saga. Like, I mean, all six books. Like, this is like a top tier chapter.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think if this were your favorite chapter in all of Dune and frankly in a lot of sci fi, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. Perfectly reasonable.

[Abu]

It's really great.

[Leo]

Yeah. So we'll, we'll wrap up, we'll come back to this. We're going to talk a lot about it.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

But we're going to wrap up this chapter summary. So in short, she finds a secret room, finds these messages left by Leto to force some member of the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And the stairs out of the chamber that she's kind of fallen into have questions written on them posed by the God Emperor, and she sort of finally realizes what it is Taraza is afraid of, which is the end of the sisterhood. And of course, this is an existential threat for the sisterhood, humanity, everything. This is. This is what's at stake. Excellent chapter. That's where we'll wrap up our summaries. So good. It's really Frank at his. At his best, I think.

[Abu]

Yeah, I agree.

[Leo]

So we're going to come back to this chamber and talk about it, but first we're going to take a quick break. So, dear listener, don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're talking about that fucking cool room. We'll be right back.

[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Yep. I am here to help you with.

[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's get into our takeaway today. Just one, because there is so much to talk about and it is all so interesting.

[Leo]

It's how WAF is sitting. That's what we're going to talk about today. It's just how WAF was sitting. It was like Odrade, but a little. He's smaller than her. You know, that's. Thanks for listening, folks.

[Abu]

Yep, all about waf. And in fact, we did a deep dive. We've done the math. How much money could WAF make selling feet pics?

[Leo]

I mean, his feet are fucking beautiful.

[Abu]

I mean, we're talking like top 1% only fans creator.

[Leo]

Yeah, you know, only feet. Onlyfeet.com only feet.

[Abu]

No, our takeaway today is about late toast message.

[Leo]

Let's talk. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

As we stated in the summary, odrait's discovery in Sietchtabur is truly incredible stuff. It's an amazing chapter. And for the takeaway today, we want to take it basically line by line, sentence by sentence, and break down what Leto's message could mean and share our interpretations of it. There are, to be clear, a number of different ways you could interpret Leto's message here. And we're certainly going to share our takes on it. But we also want to make clear that we'd love to hear what you think of this as well. So email us your thoughts or pop them in discord. And we'd love to hear what you think of this message and what Leito could mean by it and why he would leave it. And there's a lot of questions left in the air even at the end of this chapter.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

And there's a number of interpretations out there on the Internet of what it all could mean. Having said that, we also want to make clear that there are some things about Leto's message here that might become clearer later in this very book or in Chapter House in the next book. But we're not going to take those into consideration today. Obviously, for the sake of spoilers, we're going to keep today's conversation focused strictly on what we know up to this point in the book. So some of you who have read ahead or have read Chapter House might be like, but. But you didn't mention this. Yeah, we didn't mention it on purpose. We want to keep this book club series a safe place for people who are reading for the first time.

[Leo]

Totally. So going back a little bit, Odrade is using a combination of other memory, intuition, as you said, her kind of spidey sense radar. For which hallway should I go down? Definitely not that one. That's the one I'm going down.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And this is what leads her to this secret room full of spice. And of course, Leto's message. I just wanted to say quickly, I loved that Leto was using Chakobsa inscriptions like he was etching the. The messages like a Bene Gesserit would. Right. Like. Like Margot Fenring doing the dots in the underside of the leaf. Or similar to, like Shuang Yu doing the etching, I guess, horse into the furniture or something like that. This is. This is Leto, the tyrant who understands how the Bene Gesserit communicate with one another and knowing how to leave clues that as. As Odrade is pointing out, these are areas where people have been scouring every little inch trying to find spice. And I'm sure it even smells like spice. And they're like, what the fuck? Where is it? We can't find it. So they're scouring every little inch. And he's left these clues specifically for someone who is Trained as a Bene Gesserit. It's so cool. It's such a great effect. The sort of like detective vibes that this chapter has.

[Abu]

Yeah. Secret messages are the language of the Bene Gesserit. And so Leto is speaking their language.

[Leo]

He is indeed. And the first words of his first message are the simplest, the most unambiguous quote. A Reverend Mother will read my words. End quote.

[Abu]

What could it mean?

[Leo]

What could it mean?

[Abu]

The Rakis priesthood would be sent into a tizzy.

[Leo]

It's apocrypha. Apocrypha. I'm not sure. But from there it becomes more classic Leto, Right?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The self. Self pity. He's very quick to remind you how much he's given up. I don't have genitals. Okay, here's the quote. I bequeath to you my fear and loneliness. To you I give the certainty that the body and soul of the Bene Gesserit will meet the same fate as all other bodies and all other souls. End quote. Bodies that don't have genitals, like mine. Leto. Come on, man. But even within this message, the use of the word bequeath is really interesting, Right?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It makes it clear that he wrote this message knowing that it would be read after his death. Which is really fascinating because he always claimed to not look past his death. Like he always claimed to not look at the moment of his death. He was checking with the Golden Path, but he was trying not to fall into the trap of prescience and seeing too much. Nevertheless, he has this. Clearly he knew that he would be gone at the point of this message being read. So does this mean that he was using his prescience and looking this far into the future? Like we have this question over and over again in this book, Right? Did he know the Harkonnens built a no globe and did he leave it there for tag? And I think this is another instance where we kind of have to pause and go, yeah, how far did he know? Did he know, oh, Jade specifically was going to be the one to read it? Where does his knowledge of the future end?

[Abu]

Yeah. And where do the puppet strings end? Yes, presumably is the question for the people living now. You know, for people like Odrade, Taraza, Teg wondering, am I still just being puppet mastered by the tyrant thousands of years later?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Was this message waiting here for Odrade to find on purpose? Because that's how Leto meant for it to happen. It's kind of this question hanging over a lot of the characters in this book are My choices still my own, or are they still being orchestrated by one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the history of humanity?

[Leo]

Right. It's huge. And it's got to be so frustrating to be a Reverend Mother attempting to establish a sense of like, okay, we are no longer under the influence of the tyrant. And then you find a room like this and you're like, wait a second. I don't like that he called us an Uber and that the Uber dropped us off in this secret room full of messages for me.

[Abu]

Yeah, that. Yeah, I mean, that's another good point. Like, they didn't come here of their own volition.

[Leo]

They were brought here by a worm containing all of his awareness.

[Abu]

Yeah, it certainly. I mean, it would certainly make me question my own choices too. I'd be like, wait a second. The. Has anything in my life not been orchestrated up to this point? Yeah, it's. It's definitely something that's running through these characters minds as well. I will say, I think, to your last question, like, was O'Draid meant to find this specifically? Yeah, I think it could be either. I'm open to either interpretation, but my gut says that he didn't specifically name Odrade in the message. He just said, a Reverend Mother will find my word will read these words.

[Leo]

That would be too spooky.

[Abu]

That would be so spooky.

[Leo]

He's about to write O'Draid in the. In the stone, and he's like, maybe I don't want to freak her out that bad that much.

[Abu]

Exactly. But there's also. I think I lean more towards that he wrote this message in a generic enough way that any Reverend Mother who would be smart enough, who would have that intuition to be able to stumble upon this room and find this and be able to read it and interpret it would understand what he's saying.

[Leo]

Yeah, I agree. I think from the conversation we had about the no globe again, I feel like Leto probably was more along the lines of like, the Golden Path is jeopardized. And I know that writing this message in this space and keeping it safe and protecting it in these ways is enough to secure the Golden Path. And yeah, that's all I know. I don't know who's going to read the message, but I know that it's going to be a member of the Bene Gesserit. That's why I'm using Chakobsa. That's why I've like, etched it the way they do. But I think you're. I think you're Right. That. That's sort of my gut instinct, too. And again, part of the brilliance of later, too, not falling into prescient traps by looking too closely at these specifics. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

Also, I think there's the very real possibility that her Spidey sense, the thing that she's leaning on to get to this room, is not available to every Bene Gesserit. It is entirely possible that this is her like Atreides. You know, Taraza has made it clear that Odrade has some abilities, some. And we're not really sure what they are. We know it's sort of prescience and an awareness of existential threats. So it's also possible that Leto left so little clues because he knew that someone with Atreides ancestry would be around and could find the message through how that message has implications for the future. And, yeah, that would. That's just how it would work out. So I don't know. Few possibilities, but all I think, very interesting to consider. And for sure, if I were o'draid right now, I'd be shitting myself. Just a little.

[Abu]

Definitely freaked out. I mean, certainly part of why O'Draid is probably also freaking out here is the content of the message itself, because look at these words. They're very much in line with all of the things we've spent hours and hours talking about on these book club episodes. The big thematic ideas about institutions and religions and governments and how Frank has always postulated that they die. Nothing is inevitable. Paul Atreides saying on the timeline of eternity, I am just a blip.

[Leo]

Yeah, huge.

[Abu]

Leto is warning the Bene Gesserit of the very same thing. Yes, you are one of the oldest human institutions to still be alive at this point in the galaxy, but you aren't special. You are no different from any other institution. And the body and soul of the Bene Gesserit will go the way that every other body and soul goes, which is oblivion, which is destruction. He is warning the Bene Gesserit this is what's going to happen. And when the God Emperor, the most prescient being of all prescient beings, says that, you got to listen.

[Leo]

You got to. Yeah. And again, it's the warning of stagnation, as you said. We've talked about all this a million times, but it continues to be the point. And we are seeing in this book the Sisterhood having this sort of existential reckoning of how much are we stuck in our ways and how much do we have to change to survive the Key log jam breaking and everything that's going to happen, whatever is going to happen. The honored matres from the scattering to get through this will we have to change? And how much do we have to change? And yeah, yeah. Then this message is like, hey, you need to change quite a bit. Hey. Now back to the messages. Leto, of course, loves to throw shade and does so in his message, throwing some at the Tleilaxu, his favorite pastime, because they keep sending him unsolicited foot pictures. God damn it, stop. Here's the quote, quote. What is survival if you do not survive whole. Ask the Benny Twilights that. What if you no longer hear the music of life unless they call you to noble purpose? End quote. Ooh, that line goes so fucking hard. That is so good. What if you no longer hear the music of life? Memories are not enough unless they call you to noble purpose is so much better than fears. The mind killer I cannot stand is.

[Abu]

A great passage for sure.

[Leo]

And then that actress was on, I think Colbert, and she was saying that she reads herself fears the mind killer in every script or whatever. And I'm like, God damn it.

[Abu]

Oh, really?

[Leo]

There's so many better quotes in Dune. Memories are not enough unless they call you to noble purpose is sick. But Leto's implication here seems to be that the Tleilaxu have survived these long millennia. Very obviously they're still kicking Waf up in that other room, still spouting stuff about his religion, but at what costs? You know, they found a way to eternity. They have found a way to immortality through their GOLA program, but they are doing so at the expense of maybe what makes life worth living. What is the point of having a thousand reincarnations as a Gola if you're just being a shitty, like, unhappy person the whole time? And the Bene Gesserit might be at risk of the same. And honestly, based on what they've said about, like, love, for instance, and Leto's weakness was love, but he still ultimately believed in it and still did it. The fact that the Bene Gesserit, like, keep themselves from loving as this, like, crime, for sure.

[Abu]

Great point.

[Leo]

I'm like, yeah, chill, Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Good Lord, makes life worth living. Love.

[Leo]

Yeah. We are going to accidentally say song lyrics to some one of the many great ballads because it is very true. All you need is love.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. To not. To not see the beauty of life, to not hear the music of life. What's the point of continuing to survive if you don't Survive whole is such a beautiful sentiment for Leto because he sacrificed so much. He sacrificed companionship. He could have. You know, he witnessed at one point in his visions a life with. What was her name? Siya or something?

[Leo]

Sabiha.

[Abu]

Sabiha, Whatever that young woman was in Children of Dune. But he gave that up. He gave up the type of love and companionship a typical person would have. He gave up many things. And so he's speaking from experience here.

[Leo]

Sabiha. I looked it up. Hell yeah.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. I don't remember my friends names.

[Abu]

And so for Aleto to warn the Bene Gesserit of this, and to your great point about all of these things we've learned, about how much they force themselves not to feel love, how many feelings are set aside in the name of like, logic and progress and commitment to the sisterhood. This all feels like very poignant warnings from Leto. And I think they would ring true, especially with Odrait, who already kind of has these like heretical thoughts that she toys with quite a bit to have the God Emperor sort of confirm some of her fears that maybe love isn't all that bad. I also wanted to comment on his next line, the absolute banger about memories and noble purpose. This is an idea that we've heard Leto express before too, that the memories, the past cannot be your sole reason for living that bureaucratic mindset, right? This is how we've always done things. So this is how we must do things in the future. These are warnings, he says to Moneo many times in God Emperor of Dune. These are ideas we've read and talked about before. All of these things are useless unless they direct you towards some sort of noble purpose for the future, for building a better future. Leto himself says I am just this graveyard of the past. And it's people like young people like Siona, these hot blooded young people like Siona who envision a different, better, greater future, who represent the humanity that I'm trying to build. And it's not the past that you can rely on. And so these are ideas that have come up before. And he is once again warning the Bene Gesserit of straying too far in the direction, of relying on those old outdated ideas or things they know from their other memory or dogmatic views that they might hold and not embracing the new, the courageous, the unknown.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, in Leto's time it was rebels, right? People who actively rebels fight the institutions and fight the way that things just are. You rebel against that and you fight that and you try Your best to, you know, and maybe, yeah, maybe 10 of your friends get eaten by wolves. But, like, yeah, you know, that's the cost of. That's the cost of freedom, maybe. Yeah, that's how we got these. These books. Oh, it's just. It's all about his genitals. Oh, no.

[Abu]

But rip.

[Leo]

Rip the best. But to that end, you know, we've talked about the connection for Taraza, who seems to be cultivating certain types of heretics. It is very similar to how Leto had his rebels who would push back and challenge even as he continued to do the Golden Path and wouldn't let people jeopardize that. Other things were kind of fair game, which is just very fascinating to think about.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a great point. I do want to critique Leito a little bit on the message, on just the wording of his email here. He does leave it quite ambiguous what exactly he means by noble purpose and what that noble purpose should be. Because you could argue that almost all religions and most institutions claim to be working on some sort of noble purpose, right? To have some sort of mission statement for how they think the world should be shaped. Even the Tleilaxu and the Bene Gesserit. In this book, we see two different worldviews on how they think humanity's future should. Should shake out. And they think they are on a noble path and working toward a noble purpose. So this level of ambiguity from Leto, I think, at least for me, is like, not as helpful as maybe he could have made it and still leaves a lot of room for interpretation on what exactly is noble and what isn't.

[Leo]

Yeah, Yeah. I think this might also come down to the fact that, like, he doesn't know who exactly is going to read the message. And it may be just a matter of, like, what is a noble purpose is going to change. You're right, it is ambiguous. But I think perhaps that's the point. Like, the point is to reassess and go, do we have something? And if you have something, if you're pursuing this thing, then great, that's kind of a defensible thing. And that's all he's asking versus have you gotten lost in the bureaucracy and the red tape? And that's just the point of it is now institution and not some driving force. What that driving force is doesn't actually even matter that much. But for the longevity of humanity, you need to have something, because if you don't have something, then it's just you're. You're wasting time and that's what the Tleilaxu. The Tleilaxu have this idea of the great belief and all this stuff, but, like, what have they done actually to accomplish this in thousands of years? Nothing. So perhaps this is his condemnation of them as well, saying they have the idea, they have concepts of a plan, but they haven't committed to it. And they don't have, like a. They don't have that fire in their engine, so to speak. Yeah, I don't know.

[Abu]

They're having meetings about having meetings, but no work is getting done.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're like, we've had 17 meetings about meetings. It's going great. It's going really great. We haven't done any work for thousands of years, but we're talking a lot about how we could start doing some work.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I guess even just the implication that to discern that noble purpose, you should use all available knowledge, you should use all available data to construct your path forward. You know, and I think, you know, Frank as an author, we know that he was very about, like, climate protection and the way that that was all shaking out in the. In the 70s and 80s. That idea is very. We have new data, and we should change our behaviors based on that data. Same thing here. The Bene Gesserit have a lot of data, and yet it seems like they are still committed to dogma and institution in spite of data, which really feels like the mistake. You are falling into stagnation, despite the fact that you have all this data about stagnation. And actually, this kind of leads into the next piece of his message.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Which is kind of a sad note. Again, Leto, not a. Not a comedy writer by any stretch of the imagination, but it reveals a little bit of his bitterness here. And this is the quote, quote, why did your sisterhood not build the Golden Path? You knew the necessity. Your failure condemned me, the God Emperor, to millennia of personal despair. End quote. Which is.

[Abu]

Wow, I found that really interesting.

[Leo]

That's a fascinating accusation.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

That Bene Gesserit knew the necessity of the Golden Path. Really interesting to think about. But the point being, yeah, if they have all this data showing stagnation, cripples societies, and so many cultures have failed and fallen, why didn't they do something to protect humanity against stagnation? Why hasn't that been part of their goal? Why haven't they tried to avoid the trap that they are probably also cognizant of? According to Leto.

[Abu]

Yeah, according to Leto. It's interesting. I mean, if he's saying It. We have to believe it's true.

[Leo]

Yeah. He never wants.

[Abu]

The Bene Gesserit are aware of. You know, maybe they don't refer to it as the Golden Path, but they are aware that humanity needs guidance against some sort of existential threat. It's interesting. I mean, I can say pretty confidently that I don't think that Bene Gesserit have vision, like clear visions of these existential threats in the way that Paul and Leto did, that Aquisads Hadera, that even someone like Ganima would have the potential to see visions like this. That Siona, you know, she was given visions like that by her test with Leto. I don't know that the Bene Gesserit are witnessing that, but we do know, for example, in God Emperor of Dune, there was that whole chapter where Luciel has a conversation with Leto about the Tleilaxu building, like a machine mind, basically. And the Bene Gesserit are terrified of it because it spells the death of humanity.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And so, at the very least, we know that the Bene Gesserit are aware of the dangers that things like advanced technology that the Ixians might be toying with could mean for. For humanity's future. And so they are certainly aware of dangers, perhaps more so than other cultures or institutions might be.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And so, you know, I think Leto certainly feels a certain kinship there with the Bene Gesserit and the ability to, like, parse out what may happen in humanity's future. And he's clearly bitter about it. He's like, y'all could have been working with me on this, or you could have done something so that I didn't have to suffer in this way for 3,500 plus years. But you didn't. And he's almost beseeching them to, like, maybe fucking do something about it now.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or there's an existential threat. And like, that. That is. That's what's on the table.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

There is the moment. So O'Draid, quote, did not doubt the accuracy of the tyrant's accusation.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

End quote. And so it does feel, although we don't know for sure if he's, like, maybe exaggerating. He's being super dramatic, for sure. But it does seem like this is backed up by Odrade accepting the claim that he's making.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And for sure, I think that when you say, you know, the Bene Gesserit is, like, the oldest institution in the universe. They have a long view of history, and they're very proud of that. They're like, we are the first organization to start thinking in hundreds of generations. You know, that is great, but they're missing this, like, bold, broad pattern that you see in only just a few generations. And then Paul upset everything. But then things were going to fall right back into old patterns with, like, Paul Muadib, the God, you know, the exalted one I loved. Also, the moment that Leto calls out, he uses the Islamia word for God Emperor, which carries the second meaning, I am God because you made me God because you made me so because you made me so. And the layers, it's just. It's so good. But it does. It's kind of the biggest damning criticism of the Bene Gesserit. For all of the eugenics and icky stuff that they do, they have the biggest amount of data about how humanity has moved for the tens of thousands of years. And yet it took Leto, after he was forced to become the God Emperor, to save humanity over and over and over again. And you say, well, Bene Gesserit, what are you doing? And they go, oh, we're trying to steer humanity in a way that is good. We would have been fucking gone if not for me. What are you doing? Join me now, if you're not gonna, you know, late to the party. I've been dead for thousands of years. But come on, get on board. We're going. I ordered you that. Pay me back for the Uber, though. It's really expensive. So, anyway, it's. It's so interesting. And definitely we were talking in, I think, the last episode about just, like, wanting something to happen. This feels like the thing. This really feels like this is the call to action that the Bene Gesserit has needed for thousands of years. It's so cool. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, this message that is written on the wall kind of clicks a lot of things in place for Odrade. She is starting to see the larger picture, for example, of Taraza's plan. And it even kind of reveals to her, in addition to the dire warning that the Bene Gesserit will go the way of the dinosaur if they don't change. That that's definitely core to Leto's message here. The other thing that Tarazza realizes is that perhaps the will of the God Emperor, those puppet strings again that we were talking about earlier, maybe they're still at play here because the tiny pearls of his wisdom do exist within the sandworms. Arrakis is still very central to this empire. And perhaps we as humanity, our fate is still Beating to the tyrant's drum, even thousands of years after his death. We have not truly escaped into a truly wild, chaotic, unknown future.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so I think for Odrade, it becomes clear that that is wrapped up in Taraza's plan as well. She needs to save the Bene Gesserit from extinction, but Taraza also needs to finally break the God Emperor's hold on humanity. We're still being puppeteered by this guy who's been gone for thousands of years. This worm brought me to a message that he wrote for me, an email that he scheduled 1500 years ago.

[Leo]

Schedule send year 10,000. Yeah. Wild.

[Abu]

So I think that that implication is very much clear as well. And I think Taraza has connected these dots more than anyone else has in the past and is ready to take action, to break free of them, to break free of the puppet strings that Leto still is tugging on here and there, and to ensure the survival of the Bene Gesserit by forcing the Bene Gesserit to change. Yeah, it's very exciting stuff.

[Leo]

It really is. And there's a little bit more. There's a postscript on the email.

[Abu]

There is? Yeah.

[Leo]

There's a second email that comes in, and it's on the steps leading out of the chamber.

[Abu]

Yeah. Leto is many things, but succinct, not one of them.

[Leo]

Oh, wait, I forgot. I have more to say. You're leaving. I get that. But quickly. So here's the Midwest.

[Abu]

Goodbye.

[Leo]

Yeah. He's truly endless. He's got a lot to say. Here's the quote on the steps leading out of the chamber. My words are your past. My questions are simple. With whom do you ally? With the self. Idolaters of the Tleilax. With my fish speaker bureaucracy. With the cosmos. Wandering guild? With Harkonnen blood sacrificers? With a dogmatic sink of your own creation. How will you meet your end as no more than a secret society? End quote. Damn bars Bar, Kendrick Lamar, get on it. We have the lyrics for you. It's so good. Also, I love that. Like, with whom do you ally? The fucking guy waf in the other room. It's, like, so pointed. She just spent an hour on a worm with an. With a toilet. And he's like, by the way, yeah, that. That sucks. It's so good. And the idea, like, you know, choosing how you end, or what does an end look like? And what is an end? What does an end mean? And then how do you face that end if the end is happening? You know, he met his own End toppling into the water and all of that. And he met it, he didn't change it. And again, it was the end of Leto too. But it was also a transformation that led to all of this with the pearls and the, you know, all these different things. Yeah, it's really an interesting consideration as well. I know that the chapter kind of ends on this idea of like Taraza's design and Taraza's plan. And the idea of the end of the sisterhood is very pressing on a droid's mind.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And of course, this is part of Leto's message as well. How do you meet that end and how do you go forward into it? I also wanted to point out these self idolaters of the Tleilax is such a scathing condemnation because we see how devout they claim to be and how devout they are. But even as they do everything, quote unquote, in the name of their God and the great belief, they still have themselves on pedestals. Right. Like we still see Waf going around going, well, I'm the master of masters, you know, I'm the. Let me perform the cry of the Abdul, because I'm the fucking man. You know, it's like they are so clearly wrapped up in their own mythology and then worshiping themselves similar to priests being so wrapped up in their self importance and things like that. It's really, it's really cool.

[Abu]

It is, yeah, it's great. And I mean, in addition to the Tleilaxu, he names a number of people. The fish speaker bureaucracy, the Harkonnen blood sacrificers. It's almost like a choose your own adventure on how you want to. Like you want to ally with any of these people. Do you want to be in line with any of their ideologies or dogmatic views? RIP Bene Gesserit choose how. Like if you don't care whether or not you die, pick one of these. And it's such an interesting condemnation of most of these groups. It's almost asking the Bene Gesserit to stand on their own. And I think the last line in particular I found incredibly interesting because of the implication as no more than a secret society. To me, that's Leto saying to the Bene Gesserit, it's time to come out of the shadows. You have spent your entire existence as an institution steering humanity from the shadows. As Paul Atreides says in Dune Part one. That final line almost asks them to come forward, like Leto did himself, step into a position of power and lead humanity and save Humanity to take responsibility and usher in the golden Path or be the people responsible for it. And perhaps continuing to exist as a secret society is not the way the Bene Gesserit will survive, or at least won't survive.

[Leo]

Whole. Right.

[Abu]

And that it's time for them to change again. A lot of this messaging here is asking the Bene Gesserit to change in order to survive. And this final line, at least to me, struck a chord and speaks to one of the changes that they might need to make.

[Leo]

Yeah. Like at the time of the Bene Gesserit's inception, the sort of secrecy, the secret society element of them was necessary for their existential continuity. And is that still the case? And does that need to change for you to continue to exist?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So many interesting questions. And genuinely, like, this is such a monumental chapter that means so much in the series as a whole. It also feels like a dread. Really is the perfect person to have received all of the messages.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

He nailed it. You nailed that email. You sent it to the right. The right Reverend Mother. So we now have a heretic and a tradies heretic, the author of the Atreides Manifesto, with this message secure in her head as she understands more of Taraza's plans. And I will say this every goddamn time. I'm so excited to keep reading this book because I think a lot of the pieces that are set up are so interesting to see how they're going to fall and what's going to happen.

[Abu]

Yeah. Not to mention she just won the spice Lotto, so.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah.

[Abu]

Also, she's got so much money now.

[Leo]

She'S like, I'm gonna buy a condominium on Portray and then I'll have like a little like Bayside Place on Caladan and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little like villa. Like a. Like a Spanish style villa in a. On Arrakis, you know?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Open floor, girl.

[Abu]

You deserve it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Treat yourself. You solved the riddle. You solved the riddle. Master's riddle. Yeah. Well, that is our takeaway for today. We are going to land this plane, as we say, sometimes. But before we do, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. When we're back, we've got some spice morsels and your reading assignment for next episode. You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Ba da ba ba ba.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's wrap up today's episode as we like to do by chomping down on a couple of spice morsels. Let's start today with a spice morsel about Gehenna. So in today's reading, Odrade recalls this quote from Leto. Quote, when I am gone, they must call me Shaitan, Emperor of Gehenna. The wheel must turn and turn along the golden path. End quote. So some of you might already know what Gehenna means, but we had to look it up, and there's a interesting bit of history behind it that we wanted to share. So let's take a look. In the Christian and Jewish faiths, Gehenna is basically akin to Hel. It is a place for damned souls in the afterlife. But in reality, Gehenna was actually originally a valley southwest of Jerusalem, and it was at this location where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite God Moloch.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

And this human sacrifice went on for quite a bit of time. It was carried out by Israelites around the 10th century BC and continued for about 400ish years or so. Once that practice was discontinued, that valley was later made into a garbage center, basically to discourage it from ever being used again. In a similar vein, this is not a place where human sacrifices happen anymore.

[Leo]

You could have put up a sign. I mean, there's a few ways you could have done that. Making it into a garbage dump is strange.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now, what's interesting about this history is that this sort of imagery of burning children, burning bodies, burning humans, is what has supplied the visuals for what many of us associate now with hell, this idea of a place full of fire and where you go to burn. And that's a visual that's been adopted across many cultures and many faiths at this point in reference to this place in the afterlife where damned souls go. Kahenna is where much of that is inspired from, at least the. The imagery of it, this idea of burning and being sacrificed. Looking at the quote from Leto, it's also important to understand that Shaitan is an Arabic word which basically means evil spirit. And oftentimes, when it's capitalized in the way it is here, in Leto's quote, it refers to the evilest of all spirits, AKA the Devil.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Abu]

And so now that we know the origins of Gehenna, all of this sort of fits together nicely. And we have a bit more context for Leto's quote. He is saying that he will be called Shaitan, the Emperor of Gehenna, AKA the Devil, Emperor of Hell.

[Leo]

There you go.

[Abu]

There's a little bit of a history lesson for you on that word. Gehenna.

[Leo]

Very cool. Thank you for doing all that research. That's really neat. That's fun to hear.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah, it's fun.

[Leo]

Now, our final morsel today. It's going to be a quick one kind of, because we've already talked about it. And this is definitely along the lines of, have we talked about this? And then checking our scripts and going, oh, we did talk about this.

[Abu]

Go us.

[Leo]

This is a long running podcast, so RFL. Let's talk about RFL. Now. O'Draid finds the word RFL, I guess, like burned into the floor or something like that, which is the first clue that kind of leads her toward this secret chamber. And it's explained moments after she sees it on the floor as, quote, the cloud, darkness of holy judgment. End quote. Very cool. Now, this isn't the first time Frank's written the word. I get it mixed up a little bit because there's the like, whirlwind storm at the end of time or something like that that he talks about in the first couple of books. But in God Emperor of Dune, they actually specifically use the word aura fell. And it actually plays a big part in Leto II's final moments, which feels really significant considering the contents of the chamber. Right.

[Abu]

Wow. I had forgotten about this.

[Leo]

Yeah. So Leto, the last thing Leto says before he dies. And Siona and Duncan are standing over him as he's dissolving. He says, quote, do not fear the Ixians. They can make the machines, but they no longer can make Arafel. I know, I was there. End quote.

[Abu]

Oh, wow.

[Leo]

And this is this moment when his consciousness is sort of like spiraling. He's having visions. He's, you know, it's. It's really. And Duncan is then like, what the fuck was he talking about? And she goes, oh, he has written about that in his journals. Rfl, you. You can. You can see it later. And then the book ends. So it's really. It's a. It's. His final moments are talking about rfl. So then to see RFL present in the room or leading up to finding the room feels super significant.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The word itself, as we mentioned in. And this is. This is crazy to me, we did 21 episodes of God Emperor of Dune Book Club because it was in the 21st.

[Abu]

It's a dense book.

[Leo]

It's a dense book, but that's a lot of episodes. So many episodes. Nevertheless, in our 21st episode about God, Emperor of Dune, we talked about it, but just to summarize very quickly, the word translates in modern Hebrew to mist or fog. But it's used in the Bible a lot. It's used, I think I saw something like 15 times, something like that in a lot of different books within the Bible. And it's often used in the Bible to communicate God's presence. God is appearing with arafel, you know, and it's a. It's a Hebrew word. So very interesting. And also feels like seeing RFL Written on the floor. Waff would probably lose his goddamn mind. And that's our second spice morsel, rfl.

[Abu]

Amazing. Very cool to know that that was on Leto's lips as he passed away. Indeed, one of the final words he ever spoke. All right, folks, we have some homework for you.

[Leo]

Yes, we do.

[Abu]

As we always do. We're not done with this book yet. There's plenty more chapters to go. So for the next episode, make sure that you have read through chapter 33, which ends on the sentence quote. This should be the ghola here now, end quote. Okay.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

It sounds like the Gola is finally moving. We're leaving this damn note globe and going somewhere.

[Leo]

Yeah. Road trip.

[Abu]

Road trip. Yeah, it's the road trip episode of the sitcom. And that's it. That is today's book club episode.

[Leo]

Indeed it is.

[Abu]

What a great one. One of the best, most iconic chapters in Dune history. So glad we could talk about it today.

[Leo]

It's so good, and it'll be fun to come back to this chapter once we finish the book and maybe even once we've talked about Chapter House and, like, we've. This will be something to come back to for sure.

[Abu]

100%.

[Leo]

Now, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support GOM Jabbar, what we do here, and. And a couple of ways of keeping in touch with us. And of course, the two best ways to support what we do here is one, to become a patron and to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. Especially becoming a patron for only a couple bucks a month, it makes it possible to continue doing what we do. So thank you so much.

[Abu]

Thank you so much. Also, we love to hear from you, especially for today's conversation and what you thought of Leito's messages. So email us at comptrabarpodcastmail.com, send us your thoughts, send us your questions. We have an upcoming Heretics focused mailbag coming up soon on the schedule, so get your questions in now so that we have time to incorporate them. Send it all to gomtabarpodcastmail.com. we're pretty bad at replying, to be honest, because we're flooded with messages these days. But we look at all of them. I can promise that much.

[Leo]

And then, like, halfway back to waf, Odrade finds more messages. Oh, wait, I forgot. I. I didn't tell you about me not having genitals enough. I still don't have genitals.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Taraza's like, what did that.

[Abu]

Funny.

[Leo]

What did the rest of the messages say in the room? She's like, we don't need to. We really don't need to talk about it.

[Abu]

Taraza's like, was there anything else after the whole Benny Jezerit are gonna. Secret society.

[Leo]

That was basically the last thing.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think anything after that incomprehensible gibberish about genitals or whatever.

[Leo]

Yeah, just. It's about genitals.

[Abu]

Taraza's like, what? It sounded important.

[Leo]

What?

[Abu]

Speak up. Speak up.

[Leo]

No, no, no. Secret society. Secret society. Was the last.

[Abu]

Is the zoom cutting out? Is the zoom cutting out? The secret society?

[Leo]

You're sure that was the last? I'm going through a tunnel. I'm going. I can't. I can't hear you. I'm going through a ton.

[Abu]

Are you into the mic? I see you.

[Leo]

We're standing in the same room.

[Abu]

Choppy at all. It's. It's like 4K practically.

[Leo]

Secret society. Secret society. Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. It feels like you're holding out on me.

[Leo]

Secret society.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Thing you wrote.

[Abu]

We're sure the God Emperor had nothing else important to say.

[Leo]

Secret society.

[Abu]

The future of humanity hinges on this. Odrade.

[Leo]

Yeah. Secret society. Don't go in the room. Secret society. Don't check. Also, yeah, don't check.

[Abu]

No, look, I trust you. I trust you. You're one of my best sisters.

[Leo]

I'm the best. It's me, honest, and the best.

[Abu]

Maybe I'll send.

[Leo]

No, don't.

[Abu]

Maybe I'll send Lucilla in there just to. I guess we should take photographs of the room, right?

[Leo]

Just proof.

[Abu]

We should make records.

[Leo]

Secret society. Last thing you wrote.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on laurparty.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Laur. Party. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.