Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 13)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club – Heretics of Dune (Part 13) Episode Summary

Release Date: May 16, 2025

Hosts: Abu and Leo
Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast by Lore Party Media

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Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo dive deep into Part 13 of Heretics of Dune, exploring chapters 37, 38, and 39. This book club session provides detailed chapter summaries, insightful analyses, and engaging discussions on key themes and character developments within Frank Herbert's expansive Dune universe.

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Chapter Summaries

Chapter 37: Duncan's Disguise and Journey to Yasai

• Disguise Details: Duncan Idaho is cloaked in an elaborate disguise crafted by his mysterious guide, Tormsa. Abu describes the disguise humorously:

  "The hair was then bleached to a sandy blonde and hidden under a dark watch cap. All of his genital hair had been shaved away. He hardly recognized himself in the mirror they held up for him." ([06:12])

• World-Building and Camaraderie: The chapter emphasizes extensive world-building, with detailed descriptions of Gammu's wild forests. Duncan and Tormsa develop a deep sense of camaraderie, reflecting on loyalty and sacrifice:

  "He recognizes that this isn't Teg going, 'I'm going to help them get away.' To manipulate Duncan to make him now loyal to the Whatever." ([08:28])

• Arrival in Yasai: The duo navigates through the dense forests, employing unconventional methods to evade detection by Ixian life scanners. Their arrival in Yasai, the capital of Gammu and former home of Baron Harkonnen, marks a significant plot development:

  "Now, the plan that Tormsa explains to Duncan is a little crazy... They are acting like animals and they don't do anything distinctly human-like, they will be passed off as animals." ([10:16])

Chapter 38: Teg's Enhanced Abilities and Encounter with Jaffa Muzaffer

• Supernatural Enhancements: Teg's escape from captivity unlocks new abilities akin to prescience. Abu highlights Teg's newfound awareness:

  "Knowledge of things around him before those things occurred. Awareness of where he must put his foot in the next step." ([12:55])

• Assistance from Farmers: Teg's prescient abilities guide him to helpful farmers who recognize his past contributions:

  "He thought of Teg, that last gallant stand, to permit two of them to escape. I did the same for Paul and Jessica." ([08:28])

• Meeting Jaffa Muzaffer: Upon reaching the safe house, Teg encounters Jaffa Muzaffer, a field marshal from the Forces of Dur. Their tense interaction sets the stage for future conflicts:

  "They are walking and Jaffa clearly knows a bit more about what's going on because he knows that Teg was in captivity and then escaped." ([24:14])

Chapter 39: Lucilla and Bursmali in Yasai

• Exploration of Yasai: Lucilla and Bursmali navigate the bustling streets of Yasai, encountering a vibrant mix of inhabitants and bizarre customs:

  "Violent children who worship the tyrant and they're going to stone you if you don't say the right thing to them." ([28:48])

• Critique of the Bene Gesserit: Lucilla's experiences highlight a critical view of the Bene Gesserit, exposing their detachment from everyday life and the struggles of the common people:

  "She is fully reliant... she finds herself fully out of her element." ([32:05])

• Emotional Struggles: The chapter delves into Lucilla's internal conflict as she grapples with newfound hatred and the stark realities of life outside the Sisterhood's sheltered existence:

  "This planet had changed her in a way she did not want... Experience was another." ([34:25])

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Analysis and Insights

Loyalty and Camaraderie

Abu and Leo discuss the recurring theme of loyalty exemplified by Duncan and Teg. Duncan's unwavering loyalty to Paul and Jessica mirrors Teg's dedication to his charges. This mutual respect underscores the importance of personal bonds over political allegiances.

Human vs. Animal Instincts

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Teg's prescient abilities and the necessity to blend in with animalistic behaviors to evade detection. Abu elaborates:

"The Bene Gesserit have been looking to make for thousands of years. Are you reactionary? Are you able to remove yourself from literally the animal who'd be caught in the trap using animals as this sort of derogatory, reactive thing?" ([48:21])

This inversion of the Bene Gesserit's concepts highlights a delicate balance between maintaining human identity and embracing survival instincts.

Critique of Technology and the Bene Gesserit

The hosts draw parallels between the over-reliance on technology by the Ixians and the Bene Gesserit's dependence on their established dogmas. Abu notes:

"Frank's warnings are not about technology. It's about that taking away human sense of beauty, necessary selfdom, living judgments and those attitudes, the attitudes that usurp those, the status quo over reliance." ([60:29])

This critique extends to how institutions can become disconnected from the realities of everyday life, emphasizing the necessity for firsthand experiences over theoretical knowledge.

Emotional Depth and Character Development

Lucilla's emotional journey provides a profound commentary on the human condition. Her struggle with hatred and the startling realization of common people's hardships serves as a critical turning point in her character development.

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Takeaways

Life Scanners and Technological Dependence

The discussion delves into the concept of Ixian life scanners and their role in surveillance within Heretics of Dune. Abu and Leo explore how these scanners reflect broader themes of technological dependence:

"The Butlerian jihad was a rebellion against machines and that there were warnings against being too reliant on them... Now the antagonists are repeating that very same mistake." ([56:20])

Golden Path and Continuous Vigilance

Abu emphasizes that the Golden Path, initiated by Leto II, requires ongoing stewardship:

"The Golden Path is not a thing that you complete... There is no coasting on the golden path." ([63:46])

This underscores the perpetual effort needed to guide humanity away from extinction and towards a stable future.

Cultural Evolution and Religious Syncretism

The hosts speculate on the emergence of the Guldor religion and its possible intersections with other cultures, such as Tolkien's Middle-earth, highlighting the fluidity of belief systems across different factions and timelines within the Dune universe.

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Spice Morsels

In the "Spice Morsels" segment, Abu and Leo explore intriguing tidbits and connections:

1. Dol Guldur and Tolkien's Influence:

   • They draw parallels between Heretics of Dune and J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit, particularly focusing on Dol Guldur, a stronghold of the Necromancer (Sauron).

     "Dol Guldur is named on a map and depicted as dilapidated ruins, similar to the Dune universe's Yasai." ([72:27])

2. Tolkien's Dislike for Dune:

   • The hosts reveal a fascinating historical tidbit: Tolkien, a contemporary of Herbert, expressed a strong dislike for Dune in a private letter.

     "I dislike Dune with some intensity." ([75:05])

   Although this revelation is more of an entertaining anecdote, it adds an interesting layer to the intertextual discussions between major science fiction and fantasy authors.

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Conclusion

Abu and Leo provide a comprehensive and engaging analysis of chapters 37 through 39 of Heretics of Dune, delving into intricate character dynamics, thematic elements, and the broader socio-political landscape of the Dune universe. Their discussions offer valuable insights for both longtime fans and newcomers, enriching the understanding of Frank Herbert's complex narrative.

Assignment for Listeners:
Prepare to discuss Chapter 42 in the next episode. Ensure you've read the chapter ending with the line, "This ghola goes to Rakis and Gua," to fully engage in the upcoming discussions.

Support the Show:
Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast by becoming patrons at Patreon.com/GomJabbar and checking out Dune-themed merchandise from the merch store linked in the show notes.

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Notable Quotes Highlighted:

• "Things flickered in his second vision. Knowledge of things around him before those things occurred. Awareness of where he must put his foot in the next step." – Tormsa ([12:55])

• "This planet had changed her in a way she did not want. She did not want the realization that such things could be." – Lucilla ([34:25])

• "Frank's warnings are not about technology. It's about that taking away human sense of beauty, necessary selfdom, living judgments..." – Abu ([60:29])

These quotes encapsulate key moments and themes discussed throughout the episode, providing listeners with poignant reflections on character motivations and overarching narrative structures.

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Stay Connected:
For more insights and updates, follow Gom Jabbar on Twitter and Instagram, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Remember:
"Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe." – Abu and Leo

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Transcript

[Abu]

That man in the heavy coat there. A podcaster.

[Leo]

Couldn't be too tall.

[Abu]

Two of them, one on the shoulders of the other.

[Leo]

You're sure?

[Abu]

I'm sure.

[Leo]

I've seen others like that since we arrived, but I didn't suspect.

[Abu]

Many podcasters are in these streets.

[Leo]

Dude, no kidding.

[Abu]

And all of them stacked on top of each other.

[Leo]

Stacked. The classic formula. Two bros, one on top of the other. Buying one movie ticket, just one movie ticket, please, to that adult movie.

[Abu]

Right? That's how all of those bro y movie review podcasts can afford to keep up, you know, they can't afford to buy two tickets every time.

[Leo]

Listen, listen. Act poor, stay rich. That's what I always say.

[Abu]

Ride the shoulders of your podcast host.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If you don't, ride your pockets, that's how you make your podcast. Economical, affordable, cut back on costs.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Only one coat. You don't have to buy two coats. It's great.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we're back. We are talking more heretics of Dune. We're entering the city of Yasai.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh, what a weird place.

[Abu]

Just don't take a hit of that hypno bong. I'm warning you.

[Leo]

I wanted you. Hypno bong. God, what a fun set of chapters.

[Abu]

And so much world building. We're going to talk about a lot of it today, I'm sure. But my goodness, these three chapters in particular. Frank was like, all right, what are we talking about here? How am I going to fill out the. Yeah, let's get wacky. It's a wacky set of chapters, but in the best way possible. I'm excited to talk about it.

[Leo]

Totally. But before we get too far, let's take care of some housekeeping. As always, this is a book club episode, so we have no spoilers beyond the pages we've covered thus far in the book club. If you've heard all of the prior episodes, you are safe to listen today.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchins.

[Leo]

Dang, folks. Yeah.

[Abu]

That right there is the perfect hypno bong rotation, if I do say so myself.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Am I right? Oh, I would hit that bong with specifically these three people any day of the week. And I don't even do drugs. I'm a weenie.

[Leo]

Just water vapor. Just the water vapor hypno bong.

[Abu]

That's how grateful I am though. I would do it, you know, I would try it one time. Thank you so much to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Your support truly helps this show continue to be possible. But also a big heartfelt thank you to all of our patrons at every level. Every little bit counts in helping us keep the lights on and letting us continue to make this incredibly fun show.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as a reminder, if you don't have it in you to be a monthly subscriber via Patreon, we of course accept one time monetary donations via Buy me a Coffee. That link is in the show notes as well. Every little bit matters. Every little bit helps. So thank you all to anybody who has contributed.

[Abu]

Indeed. Okay, housekeeping out of the way. You know the drill for these book club episodes. We will begin with a summary of today's reading and then we'll dive into a takeaway. Dive a little bit deeper into some ideas in these chapters and finally we'll wrap up by chomping down on some delicious spice morsels. All of that and more coming up in just a second, folks. Let's take a quick breather. Don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're diving into chapters 37, 38 and 39.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Hope you had a great break. We're back. Let's talk about our chapter summaries and let's kick off Our chapter summaries today with chapter 37. Now, our first chapter today is a short one. Duncan has been disguised as a dirty, filthy, gross, icky gross, Tleilaxu gross. He is being guided through the wild forests of Gamu by his mysterious guide, the artist formerly known as Ambitorm, who now goes by Tormsa.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

What's his real name? No one knows.

[Abu]

Nobody knows.

[Leo]

It's mysterious, but he's very cool. Now, the description of Duncan's disguise is flat out hilarious. Oh, my goodness, here it is. Quote, the hair was then bleached to a sandy blonde and hidden under a dark watch cap. All of his genital hair had been shaved away. He hardly recognized himself in the mirror they held up for him. End quote.

[Abu]

Incredible.

[Leo]

They also have like cheek pads and some other things modifying his appearance. But truly my headcanon was. He was watching them make all these changes to him. Giving him his cheek pads, shaving his hair, bleaching it blonde, doing all this. And the whole time he's going, I look like Duncan. This is not working. What are you doing? This is a failure of a disguise. And then they shaved his genital hair and he looked at himself in the mirror and he was like, who is that? I'm convinced. Never once has Duncan looked like that. He came out of the womb fully bushed up.

[Abu]

That's right. It's the bush that gets the ladies, folks.

[Leo]

That's. Listen, it makes them irresistible. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Truly, we've weakened them. But also, I'm curious, It's absolutely wild. Who's the lucky duck that got to shave Duncan's down under, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah. Did they draw straws? Just.

[Abu]

Just wondering how you apply for that kind of job.

[Leo]

It's like that chapter of this book that ended with Lucilla going, this should be me shaving Duncan right now. Well, nevertheless, this night long hike is long and confusing. And I want to take a second to appreciate the fact that Frank is kind of leaning into the vibe by giving us a lot of details about the foliage, the bushes, the trees, the little natural details, none of which help us understand where we are or where we're going. So for me reading the chapter, and I've talked about this a few times, we're really being aligned with the feelings of the characters. As I'm reading the chapter, I'm like getting a little bit like, okay, enough of the fucking nature. And of course, that's also what Duncan is thinking. He's like, his eyes are glazing as he's looking at all these natural details. No idea where he's going. We are as lost as Duncan is as he's being guided through the night. Right?

[Abu]

For sure.

[Leo]

I had the same feeling now along the way. Duncan feels this deep, intense moment of camaraderie with Tegu. He thought of Teg, that last gallant stand, to permit two of them to escape. I did the same for Paul and Jessica. It was a bond with Teg, and it touched Duncan with grief. Teg was loyal to the sisterhood. Did he buy my loyalty with that last brave act? Damn the Atreides. End quote.

[Abu]

Damn them indeed.

[Leo]

Damn them indeed. And I love that. Because first he recognizes, oh, he believes in loyalty. And he, just like Duke Leto, lose. Loyalty is something that goes up and down. You are loyal to those above you. He's loyal to the Sisterhood, but he's also loyal to these two people he's in charge of. And he's giving his life for them the same way that Duncan thoughtlessly gave his life for Paul and Jessica so that they could escape. He would have done the same, I'm sure, for men that he was in charge of. So he recognizes that in Teg, feels a camaraderie there. But also, this isn't Teg going, I'm going to help them get away. To manipulate Duncan to make him now loyal to the Whatever. Like, Duncan's realizing this isn't an emotional 5D chess move.

[Abu]

This is just who tag is.

[Leo]

Who tag is. It comes so naturally to him. And that's what's so frustrating about the Atreides, is that they are just these, like, naturally. They have this instinct for honor and this, like, willingness to. To sacrifice themselves for people.

[Abu]

Rat bastards.

[Leo]

So the chapter wraps up. You know, there's this long journey. Duncan and Tormsa end up in this cave where Torms to, like, uncovers some hot soup, which, like, sounded absolutely delicious to me. They are waiting, basically killing some time. Now they're looking out over a valley and the mists clear and a city comes into view. And that city is Yasai. It is the capital city of Gamu. And. And this is also the city that at one point, Baron Harkonnen himself called home. It's the location of the Barony. So actually, the city we've seen in Denis Villeneuve's adaptations, this is, you know, thousands of years later, but the same place, which is very cool.

[Abu]

Very cool.

[Leo]

Now, the plan that Tormsa explains to Duncan is a little crazy. There are Ixian life scanners, high altitude, being carried by thopters that are going to be scanning the forests leading into Yasai for any signs of life. And Torms is like, ain't a big deal, no big problem. Just act like a chipmunk, bro. Everything will turn out fine. Duncan's like, fucking run that by me one more time. Do I have to nuts in the mouth. Just pack them full or what? What are we doing? But the fact is, the scanners are so high up that any life will be detected. But if they are acting like animals and they don't do anything distinctly human like, they will be passed off as animals. I also get the sense that these forests are teeming with like wildlife and creatures and critters. So this is a solid plan. And minutes later, with almost no additional argument, they are off heading into Yasai. And then occasionally they pull on their fur suits, going full fursona and acting the animals that they deep down are.

[Abu]

Do what I do, nothing else. Go, go. And it's like, oh God.

[Leo]

Duncan's like, okay, Chew on a branch. I guess. Good thing my genital hair was shaved. Otherwise they would have seen I was a human.

[Abu]

Like, damn. Okay, let's talk chapter 38. This is a fun one. We rejoined Tegu. Recall that he has just escaped captivity and also unlocked his Super Saiyan abilities. And Teg is on his way to Yisai as well. Again, everyone is congregating in the major city here on Gammu. It's daybreak. He finds himself on a busy road. There's farmers and lay people and transportation trucks. It's just like a busy morning outside the city. You know, a lot of traffic.

[Leo]

Yeah. Like a 10 lane road. It was like. It's interesting how modern this sounds like it's like, oh yeah, some times of day this might be all cars. Like very interesting mental images here.

[Abu]

Yeah. You know, as he's walking, he is also sort of marveling at some of the new abilities that the T probe has unlocked within him. Obviously he has the ability to like move at super speed, but he's also feeling this other sensation that sounds an awful lot like prescience. Here's the quote. Listen to this quote. Things flickered in his second vision. Knowledge of things around him before those things occurred. Awareness of where he must put his foot in the next step. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That's a description of prescience if I've ever heard one.

[Leo]

I was going to say that sounds so much like Paul in Dune Messiah. Right? Like using his prescience in this kind of immediate way. No. Not looking a thousand years down the road. And checking on the Golden Path, but just being conscious of what the next moment might bring.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

There's also something here where it's like, I think. And we'll talk about this more as the chapter progresses, but this whole sequence feels so dreamlike to me because it's just like things happening to Teg in just the perfect way. And I think that line that you just read out sets up why this stuff is happening the way it's happening. Because Teg is allowing his second vision to sort of like quietly guide where he's putting his feet, where he's, who he talks to, who he like reaches out to. And then it becomes this, like he's going. His conscious mind is going, whoa. What are the fucking chances? X, Y and Z happens? This is the chances are 100%, bud. That's how prescience works, you know, the.

[Abu]

Chances are what he makes them by choosing where to put his step. Because that's where the vision should be, him it should go.

[Leo]

Right? Chances 0%. If you had taken a step to the left.

[Abu]

Exactly. Think Paul flying an ornithopter blind and doing Messiah.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

He can do that because he's doing exactly what the Prescience tells him, how to fly the ornithopter blind. Yeah, I think you're absolutely correct. The most direct comparison is Paul in Messiah and how Paul was using his visions sort of directly in short term bursts. I mean, I don't get the sense that Tag is seeing stuff like dozens, hundreds of years out, like Leto and Paul were, or even Ghanima. This is a more immediate prescient gut feeling that he's utilizing in the moment and all throughout this chapter.

[Leo]

Really, he's a Super Saiyan with a Spidey sense.

[Abu]

That's right, he's got that Spidey sense. I mean, as he's trying to process this new ability, he does at one point wonder if what he's undergone is effectively his version of a spice Agony and that, like, maybe he's some sort of Reverend Mother now. But to be clear, he doesn't hear any other memories. He can't tap into any ancestral memories like the Reverend Mothers or Leto could. So this is something new. This is unprecedented. What has happened to Miles Tegg, it might sound familiar. We can make some comparisons to Paul and Prescience, but what is specifically happening to him is unprecedented in human history.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So continuing with our summary, Teg's double vision here basically assists him in singling out a particular farmer on the roadside to ask for directions Lo and behold, during this conversation, this farmer reveals that he knows Teg and in fact, he served under Teg at Rendatai. The battle of Rendatai. Teg is like, I don't even remember that battle. I've been in so many. But I. I believe you. Thanks for serving under me. And this farmer and some other friendly farmers nearby basically help Teg. They get him off the road. They're like, hey, we know you're being followed. We're here to assist you. Let's get you off the road. Let's get you into this ground car. So a ground car comes up. They get Teg in there with another fellow ally, and Tag is whisked away toward the city of Yasai. As he's continuing to sort of get his bearings. I mean, again, some of this is like, what is happening? That was crazy. I just talked to the right farmer by accident. Again, a lot of that can be chalked up to the gut instinct, pressing ability.

[Leo]

He's using the double vision. Yeah.

[Abu]

He tells the driver of the ground car, hey, take me to this predetermined safe house location. It's one of the ones he had scattered out during his early visits to Gamu. And so that's where the ground car is headed now. On the way to the safe house, Teg is. He's fucking famished, like, using the super speed has drained his body. Fighting the T probe has drained his body. He was out, as we will learn, for like two days. He was unconscious. So, like, he hasn't eaten or drank anything in like two days. And he's used 10,000 calories to escape. So he's hungry. He asks the driver for. To, you know, to take him on a little detour. And they do. They stop at a little establishment, again, sort of a safe house establishment that they know will be friendly to Teg. And Teg goes in and is given a bowl of soup. But Teg, being so famished, is actually unable to feed himself. It was kind of a sad image. He's like, shaking so much that the spoon. He can't, like, actually ladle up the soup and feed himself. And in a really tender, like, shockingly tender moment, the proprietor of this establishment, this eating establishment, whose own body is like, clearly this reconstruction. He's had, like, reconstructive surgery. He's missing limbs.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

A veteran of some sort.

[Leo]

Artificial voice like this guy's. I mean, he's a wreck.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And, and. And living, you know, living life. But it's like, it's. It's really A haunting image.

[Abu]

It's a haunting image. He comes up and he helps Tegu. A steadying hand gripped Teg's wrist, and the artificial voice spoke softly in Teg's ear. I do not know what they did to you, Bashar, but no one will harm you here without crossing my dead body. You know me. Many would die for you, Bashar. My son lives because of you. Teg allowed himself to be helped. It was all he could do to swallow the first spoonful. End quote.

[Leo]

I man, and I think I definitely have some emotional resonance with this because my grandfather had really serious tremors. And I think I watched people be unable to feed themselves. And it's like, you think about the dignity of life and those little things and suddenly being unable to do those little things. And this is a legendary Bashar. So to see him unable to do it was already so heartbreaking for me and felt so resonant to like, watching my grandfather, who also, by the way, was six, seven. He's like giant guy. So it's like seeing this, like, massive man unable to feed himself is so heartbreaking and heart wrenching for me. But then also for this, this. This guy whose body is a. Is a. Is a reconstructed mess who clearly has been through a lot of suffering and clearly, you know, is dealing with his own shit. To be like, you are safe here. I don't know what they did to you, but you're safe here is like. I almost cried reading this page.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's really tender.

[Leo]

Oh, it's so much. And I think it's a great way for Frank to continue to show the very many impacts that Teg has had on people's lives. Like through his many bloodless victories, through his decision to spare people and to join rebels and to recruit people, he is made that impact on foes and friends alike, where people live because of him and they are grateful to him for that. And he is remembered and he is loved. And then you think, how many people on this planet have, or even in the galaxy have a family member or a friend or themselves live because of something, A decision that Teg made that led to a battle not becoming a bloody mess, or because Teg negotiated a certain way, or Teg was brave and recruited. It's like, oh, it's so good. I loved this. I don't know.

[Abu]

I loved it. Yeah, no, you're absolutely spot on. It's a really beautiful and touching moment. And the only thing that kind of took me out of this moment was wondering how famous is Tag, you know, like if some war general showed up to my ramen shop, I don't know that I would recognize him. But again, as you stated, this guy has a direct relation to this war general. Like, his son is alive. And clearly he comes from a military family and would. Would know who Miles Bashar, the greatest Bashar in the history of humanity would be. So, yeah, it was stretching this chapter in particular, kind of was stretching my disbelief a little bit, because all of this. All of the events, as we've stated, were, like, a little too convenient, and everything was hap. I didn't really get a sense of danger. Like, I didn't get the sense that Tay was actually being chased by anything or hunted by the Honored Matres until the very end. As we'll talk about with Jaffa, I.

[Leo]

Think Frank does a little bit to address that by saying, Teg goes, wow, I keep getting fucking recognized immediately. Maybe I need a disguise. But I think the other side of it is maybe Frank needed another sentence somewhere to reiterate the vast convenience of this series of events. That is because of, like, maybe Teg needed to marvel at how lucky he's been. And, wow, is this the power of Prescience? You know, and maybe that was something we needed just to kind of put that feeling to ease. I didn't have as much of that because I was very, like, in the vibe of, like, he's kind of letting his instinct guide him, and that's what Prescience is doing for him, is leading him to the right people. The moment where the farmers block the view of Teg from the passing armored vehicle was a moment of, like, that could have been made to be more dire or more like, what a close call. Because that armored vehicle had Honored Matre in it or something. And it was implied, but not really dwelled upon.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So for sure.

[Abu]

Or also, like, who are these farmers? Is it just veterans who live on Gammu? Is it Bursmallis, undercover forces who have been sent out to track down Tegan? You know, like, it was. Yeah, that's the part that was kind of losing me a little bit, where I was like, I can understand that Prescience took him to the right farmer that is willing to help, but where did this ground car and driver come from? And who are the forces assisting? Tag?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Was very elusive and kind of brushed away in this chapter. Not to, like, diminish her point about the Supe man.

[Leo]

No, for sure.

[Abu]

It was really beautiful and tender. Yeah, Yeah, I liked that scene. It was just at that point where I Went, okay, farmers love him, Soup man loves him. Ground car man loves him. But who are any of these people and why would they be doing this for Tag? Are they working on orders? Are they just conveniently there? And, like, I know a guy. Let me call someone.

[Leo]

They're all in the same Facebook group.

[Abu]

They're all in the same, like, I heart Miles TAG Facebook group. And they're like, they're in a WhatsApp group message anyway.

[Leo]

You're Exactly. First of all, both can be true. Like, the soup scene can be super touching and resonant. And then also there can be this kind of background feeling of like, oh, maybe things need to be more justified. And you're totally right that. Something I'm not clear on is how much Bursmali's hand is involved in all of this. Because one of the farmer just now was saying, like, yeah, there's a ground car on its way because we thought you'd be heading into Yasai. And it's like, who thought who? Like, again. And that's where I think maybe another sentence or two. But nevertheless, it's also, we gotta get him. We gotta get him to Yasai. So how are we gonna do it?

[Abu]

And again, hashtag prescience.

[Leo]

You know, prescience.

[Abu]

A lot of it can be chalked up to that. Okay, let's finish up this summary because this is where it gets real juicy. I had, like, goosebumps during this scene.

[Leo]

So good.

[Abu]

Tag arrives at the safe house. Well, what he thought was the safe house, it's clearly been compromised because none of the people he met before, none of his allies are there anymore. Kind of wanders around, goes to the, you know, the safe house secret room, and then is shortly joined by a mysterious man that he doesn't recognize or know. This man introduces himself as a field marshal, an old school title that nobody uses anymore, named Jaffa Muzaffer of the Forces of Dur. Yeah. And Tag is like, I don't know what any of those fucking words mean.

[Leo]

Every one of those words went over my head. And I'm very tall. It's very impressive you lopped them so high.

[Abu]

Exactly. But again, speaking of prescience, Teg's double vision tells him, like, yes, this man is dangerous. He's a mercenary. He will work with the highest bidder. He carries concealed danger. He's a military man, so everything about this man screams danger. But Tag's spidey sense does not tell him he's in danger at the moment. So there's no dangerous intent. But this is a dangerous person.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And so Teg sort of relaxes. They chat a little bit. Teg trying to get a sense of what's going on. Jaffa clearly knows a bit more about what's going on because he knows that Teg was in captivity and then escaped. So clearly Jaffa's in the know a little bit more after a quick inspection from a Trader Joe's brand. Souk doctor. Not exactly a soup doctor. He's a little bit different, but he does kind of the same thing.

[Leo]

Souk doctor. S o. Okay.

[Abu]

Exactly, Exactly. Sort of a knockoff souk doctor. He gets an inspection and then a meal. A meal is brought to Tag because Tag is starving in the souk doctor's lake. He need. He needs nutrition.

[Leo]

It's a wish dot com. Souk doctor.

[Abu]

So Tag and Jaffa talk while Tag scarves down this meal. The conversation is mostly tense. You know, Tag is being careful not to reveal too much because he doesn't know who this person is or what the situation is. In the safe house, Jaffa kind of spouts out weird Dr. Seuss style shit about, like some tree that he turned into a house on his home planet. And this was like a rite of manhood for his culture or something.

[Leo]

Yeah. Frame, frame bush, frame tree. Yeah.

[Abu]

Truly wild world building stuff that clearly speaks to this unknown culture that is completely alien to Teg that exists out in the Scattering where there are trees that you turn into houses as a rite of adulthood.

[Leo]

Like sentient plants that you get along with.

[Abu]

Yeah. So it's a fun bit of world building for not our universe, but the scattering. Well, this chapter wraps up on a very tense note. After the meal, Teg discovers that Muzaffar has received new orders and that an honored matre is coming up the elevator right now. And he's about to come face to face with an honored matre.

[Leo]

Sexy retired athlete. Nice.

[Abu]

Ooh. Hello. Jaffa leaves and Tig prepares himself to meet this dangerous new player. And that's where we leave chapter 38. Love it.

[Leo]

God, cliffhanger.

[Abu]

Damn it. We're like, fully into like spy movie thriller at this moment. And it's awesome.

[Leo]

So good. He's in enemy territory. He has unknown powers. It's such a good moment.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, our final chapter today. 39. We join Lucilla and Burzmali as they enter Yasai. They are on the streets among the people, wandering through a bizarre collection of truly, like, just wacky sounding things, heading toward the safest place that Bursmali could arrange. All things considered, and the chapter is packed with details of Yasai's inhabitants. Right. We're seeing merchants. We're seeing stalls selling trinkets. We're seeing farmers and grocers and produce. Sewer workers. Bread for sewer. Working with no smell. And big arms, which I mean goals, I guess. I don't need a sense of smell and I'd love big arms. That'd be great. So excellent. Violent children. Packs of violent children who worship the tyrant and they're going to stone you if you don't say the right thing to them.

[Abu]

Funny.

[Leo]

And folks.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

You think that's a tall adult buying a movie theater ticket for one person? Nope. That is two Tulalaxu masters in a big coat.

[Abu]

I just had to stop and take a moment at this line.

[Leo]

I had this line highlighted from my first read through of the book. And I want to make it clear, when I read the book the first time, I was just like, let me experience this and enjoy it. I got to two Tleilaxu masters, one on top of the other, wearing a big coat and guffawed. It was the funniest thing.

[Abu]

Funniest.

[Leo]

Frank could have included. God, that's so funny. How do they decide who's on the bottom? You think like to draw straws. You're the bottom this time. The squeaky little voices too. You have like a nine foot tall guy and he's like, hey, that's me, Tall Man McGee. I'm a tall guy.

[Abu]

That character that's so funny.

[Leo]

Was it BoJack Horseman with, like the brooms for arms?

[Abu]

That's immediately what it made me think of. Two kids in a trench coat.

[Leo]

Oh, it's so clear to me that Frank with this whole chapter is having so much fun at this point. Like, it really reminds me of some of his short stories that are a little bit, like, weirder and wackier and off the beaten path, for sure. It's so Yasai is so unserious. Like, so many details are so unserious. And I fucking love it because this really does a good job of just like that first chapter on Tleilax, we suddenly feel like we're in an alien world.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Even though this is the capital city on a planet that we've known about since the very first Dune book, how alien it's become since we last saw it.

[Abu]

Yeah. It's fun, this sort. And you know, for what it's worth, like, this is background world building. Right. Like, the hypno bong is not going to become plot critical. Chekubs all of a sudden, you know.

[Leo]

So someone's got to smoke it before the end of the book.

[Abu]

This is, like, fun world building. It's not like world building for the sake of, like, oh, fuck, I need MacGuffin to fix something. So here's a hypnobong all of a sudden that I promise was there the whole time.

[Leo]

Thank God I introduced that earlier in book.

[Abu]

Yeah. It really breathes life into this world and into a story, for what it's worth. Like, Dune is always about a very small set of characters who are the 0.1 of the 0.1% cream of the crop. These stories can be laser focused on these characters and their choices and their lives. And so it is fun when we get to pause and zoom out and walk the streets of Yasai and see how the rest of dune lives.

[Leo]

Oh, 1,000%. I mean, again, it's giving Dune tarot decks being sold as, like, souvenirs in the Grand Square in Arrakeen. And it's like, did any of that matter for anything other than that? It's like a congregation spot for people. Sure. But, like, the stalls and the souvenirs and the trinkets, it's like, it's part of the broader story for sure, but it is not vital. And yet it's there, and it gives life and kind of a breath to the feeling of the universe. It's so good.

[Abu]

It's a lot of fun.

[Leo]

Well, they pause in an eating establishment where Lucilla is basically forced to come to terms with how painfully dependent she is.

[Abu]

Yeah. Out of her element.

[Leo]

Fully out of her element. She's fully reliant. She is, like, fucking up left and right. Bursmalli's having to, like, intercept what she's doing to make sure she doesn't draw attention to herself.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And also, everything feels alien and dirty and. And she's, like, feeling very repulsed by everything that she's witnessing. People are speaking unusual accents. There's dangerous customs. Children gonna stone you unless you say golder. Golder. Children, you know, get the gold. Or they're like, okay, he said the word. Let's go.

[Abu]

Skippity, skippity. Please don't stone me.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. You don't. You don't skippity fast enough, and you get rizzlered. It's obviously. It is like talking to a Gen Z, Gen Alpha, you know, it happens. She's in her 30s now, and she's surrounded by Gen Alpha.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

But there is some poignant stuff here about Lucilla's sheltered upbringing within the sisterhood. Right. This kind of pointed criticism against the Bene Gesserit. They claim to be guiding humanity toward the kind of the ultimate goal of, we've improved everything. We're at the helm, we're steering. But they also have never. They're so removed from it. They're so removed from the rabble of the street. They're so removed from the experience of the 99% of Dune.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And here, Lucilla is an awakened Reverend Mother going, I don't know what the fuck is going on.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

What are we doing?

[Abu]

This is how people live.

[Leo]

This is how people. This is humanity. I thought humanity was in the fucking. Keep with the military and the lase guns and the space dancers. Yeah. You're telling me people just fucking sell fruit in a stall like, whoa, Goldor Gold. Or, you know. And she does. I mean, she finds herself. So there is that kind of, like, criticism toward the Bene Gesserit and their blindness to most people's lives and kind of how they. They're. They're playing their political 5D chess, fully, it seems like, unaware about what's going on in their own backyard. But also, Lucilla personally is feeling this disgust at the planet and the people on it, a feeling of hatred that she is honestly surprised by.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Quote, this planet had changed her in a way she did not want. She did not want the realization that such things could be.

[Abu]

Ooh.

[Leo]

Intellectual understanding was one thing. Experience was another. End quote.

[Abu]

An idea we've talked so much about, so much about.

[Leo]

I mean, again, this goes back to Leto not being able to play the ballastat because he doesn't have the firsthand experience of it. And also, this maybe redeems the Bene Gesserit a little bit. Maybe they have an intellectual understanding of this is how people's lives are, but that is not being among them, and that is not experiencing the truth of their lives and recognizing. Yeah. That person was literally genetically bred to work in the sewers for their entire life. And that's their entire life. And you don't feel that until you see them getting ready to go into their shift and you're going, oh, my God, it smells so bad. And it's like, yeah, that's their entire life.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

How do you feel about that, Lucilla?

[Abu]

Right. Yeah, it's wild. How do you feel about that, Lucilla? I really, really loved this insight into Lucilla's thoughts and her reactions, in particular to being out in the streets, as my sister would say, the streets. I really appreciated how out of touch Lucilla is. Because yes, in this story, it's acting as a criticism of Lucilla and on a wider sense, the Bene Gesserit as an institution in power who don't know how the 99% live, but stepping out of it. Talking meta frank commentary here, like, this is a criticism. You can lobby against any fucking politician in history.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Especially any politician or leader who came up from an already cushy lifestyle.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Somebody who already got their meals from a butler on a silver platter is not going to know how a family of four is being held together by a coal miner.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Which is effectively what Lucilla is suddenly experiencing. Her eyes have been opened to how, how the other half live. And I think, like, poverty can be so intellectualized. Right. Here's the stats on poverty, here's how poor people live, here's how we're doing better for our underserved population. All of those are like talking points. But, like, it's not until you're like in the trenches and experiencing this for yourself that you truly understand what it means to be poor. And for Lucilla, this is like a wake up call moment. So I really loved that. Not only as a criticism of the Bene Gesserit within this story, but as just a larger thematic criticism of just people in power. You know, you got to hold people in power to account and say, do you actually know what this means? Do you know what your policies mean and what you're speaking about when it comes to helping your constituents? Um, personally, it's one of the big reasons I like, instantly don't trust anyone who's never done a service job. You know, it's like if you haven't been on that side of the customer service experience. Yeah, you just don't have any room to talk, you know, and like, especially if you're rude to a customer service person, like, it's such a big red flag in a person when I. Yeah, yeah, when I experience that, you know, and it's something that I like greatly. I'm glad that I had the experience of like, doing customer service work and then was lucky enough and privileged enough to work my way out of it and don't have to do that anymore because it's, it's a wake up call when you, when you actually do it for yourself.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think the same thing about, like, I've had conversations about like, dollar store stuff where it's like, you look at a dollar store and you go, oh, this stuff is all packed full of sugar and the quality is really bad. And it's blah, blah, blah. This is clearly. And you're. We're thinking in terms of, like, ecological impact and we're talking all the packaging and also the nutritional value and blah, blah, blah. Ignoring the fact that like, that is the literal, like, lifeline for low income families to get the food they need to feed themselves and have a baseline calorie intake. It's like. You're right. There's this disconnect between when you get too intellectual about things and then you forget. No. Sometimes your kids are crying because they're hungry and you go, you know, a fucking 99, $99 bag of chips. 99 cent bag of chips.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That's going to like, tide them over until the next, you know, I don't know, like, whatever. I don't want to completely.

[Abu]

No, absolutely.

[Leo]

It's like you, you clearly have an intellectual understanding of these things, but you just don't have, like the firsthand experience or even the secondhand experience talking to people, so.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

That's a great shout out and I appreciate that too. It's very present in this chapter and it's great.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

Well, to wrap up, they arrive at Burjmally Safe House, greeted by an old, bent woman, an ancient lady. And I love Lucilla's like, she in disguise is right.

[Abu]

Is this like the other ancient? Not ancient lady from Rachel?

[Leo]

Nah, she's just ancient. This lady for real ancient. And Lucilla actually quickly realizes this woman is from Rakis.

[Abu]

Whoa.

[Leo]

This woman is from Arrakis. Whoa. And the realization comes with a flood of hatred. New hatred. Okay, Again, a dangerous feeling for a reverend Mother. Because again, hatred and love, they're kind of two points of attachment. That can be dangerous.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Lucilla snaps at the poor lady. She's like, completely rude to her. It's like, get out of here. So, good thing I don't have to kill you, you know? The lady's like, terrified. Literally, like drooling out of fear and scurries away. And Berzmali's like, yo, what the fuck? That lady is part of the people who are gonna help us get to Rakis, get to where we need to be for the whole rest of the fucking plan. What are you doing? You're being mean to the surface. Have you not been a waitress? Lucilla. Lucilla's like, we've been waiting for 10 minutes. It's like, jesus, Lucilla, calm down.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So at the end of the chapter, Brismoli goes to bed, he's taking a nap, and Lucilla attempts to do the same. They're in this kind of safe space. She attempts to do the same, but fails to get any rest and instead is caught up in a memory of being held in someone's arms and tears are running down her cheeks. She's also like actively wrestling with her hatred to resolve it. Because again, hatred and love, these are things that can sit above your priority to serve the sisterhood. This is a degree of attachment that goes. That makes you more likely to fall out of step with the Reverend Mother Superior's orders. So she is working, she's applying her better help lessons that she learned from her last therapy session.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And nevertheless, it's clear that Yasai and Gamu as a whole, this experience of being among the people has moved her much more than she ever expected.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And that's where our reading wraps up today.

[Abu]

Right. Which is crazy because consider what that says about the Bene Gesserit also.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like being on the ground with everyday life people has shocked Lucilla to her core. She's a Reverend Mother. She's clearly been through lots of education and training. She has access to other memory. Like, this is not some sort of young acolyte, you know, who has never left home that we're talking about here. We're talking about an experienced Reverend Mother shocked by what is effectively just everyday life on gamut.

[Leo]

Day to day life. Yeah.

[Abu]

And what a condemnation of the sisterhood as an institution that is your most experienced and senior people don't know what everyday life is like. What are you doing over there? You don't send anyone on mission trips just to see and experience the world or apprenticeships out there in the real world. No, they rely on other. It's this over reliance on other memory, our intelligence, our knowledge, our dogma. We know.

[Leo]

Is that a theme I'm sensing?

[Abu]

Hello. So I just really liked. I think you could read this chapter and be like, I don't know, Frank doing silly world building and Lucilla getting a drink with Brismoli and going to a safe house. Yes. That's like quote unquote, the plot of what happens. But the layers of commentary, social commentary, political commentary in this chapter really resonated with me.

[Leo]

Also the fact that like, she is shocked back to a moment when she was held in arms, you know, like the fact that she's. She's shocked back to this moment where she is so human and so connected and before all of the training and before all of that stuff completely, for me, that feeling of like her hatred is this kind of surface level reaction. But then there's this deeper core that's reminding her of this moment where she was like safe and held and human before she was all wrapped up in Bene Gesserit teachings and stuff.

[Abu]

I agree completely.

[Leo]

Oops. We did a takeaway.

[Abu]

Hello? Okay, well, speaking of takeaways, let's take a quick break. But dear listener, when we come back, we're gonna dive deeper into a takeaway about Duncan and human versus animal. So don't go anywhere. We'll see you soon.

[Unknown]

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[Unknown]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you hit the hypno bong. Hope you saw some short folks standing on top of one another in a big old coat. For our takeaways today, we're going to be talking about Life scanners. XCM Life scanners. And this goes back to Duncan's tumultuous nighttime hike with Tormsa. Because Tormsa throughout their little hike drops some fucking fire bars. Again, limited episode on the level of Kendrick Lamar. Don't at me about how they are going to evade detection. Yeah, that resonates on a number of different, like, thematic levels that we wanted to look into.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So for this takeaway we're going to dig into some quotes from our intrepid guide and we'll kind of look at maybe what we can glean from them.

[Abu]

For sure, a lot of fun thematic ideas sprinkled here.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

So let's start with Torms initial warning to Duncan. As they're hiding out in that cave after their delicious soup meal, Torms warns that there are searchers overhead yeah. And that Duncan must do exactly as he does as they traverse this valley that's between them and the city of Yasai. When you traverse such country as this, you become one of the animals that live here. Look at the tracks and see how they walk and how they lie down for a rest. End quote. And of course, yeah, that sounds familiar to a lot of us because this sounds a lot like Fremen moving through the desert, stepping without rhythm to avoid attracting the attention of Shai Hulud, the Great worm, Right? Making the natural sounds of the desert to not stand out.

[Leo]

Arrhythmic, even. Even emulating. You know, they say Muad'dib is a great name for Paul because the desert mouse makes his own water. It's a resourceful thing. They are emulating the resourcefulness of the life that has adapted to live in the desert. And that is humanity survives.

[Abu]

Right? It was a form of survival for the Fremen here. Torrense is saying the same thing. How we will avoid detection is to blend in with the natural environment of this valley.

[Leo]

Chew on that branch, Duncan.

[Abu]

Chew on the branch, Duncan. Act like a chipmunk, Duncan.

[Leo]

Act like a fucking cute little chipmunk. Blonde, cute little chipmunk.

[Abu]

Do it.

[Leo]

Do it.

[Abu]

Duncan's like, we haven't left the cave yet. What are you talking about? Is this a sex thing?

[Leo]

Are we safe? I thought we were safe here. Do you just like watching people chewing? Okay.

[Abu]

And for what it's worth, we're not making this Fremen Arrakis desert connection out of nowhere. Just a few pages earlier, Duncan himself thinks this quote. Teg had said that the orbiting monitors that guarded the planet from attack were of the best. Everything for protection, damned a little for comfort. It was like Arrakis in that respect. End quote.

[Leo]

Yes, it was. Oh, my gosh.

[Abu]

That's how Duncan is thinking of the planet Gamu right now. So it feels like a very intentional connection there.

[Leo]

Now he is a little skeptical. Duncan is a little skeptical that pretending to be a chipmunk nibbling on that branch is going to protect them from the Ixian searchers in their thopters above. He's like, is that really gonna. Is that fucking enough? That seems like work.

[Abu]

What?

[Leo]

That's. It is 30,000 years in the future. I'm pret sure this is Thormsa's kink. I'm now 90% sure that this is one of his kinks. So Tormsa clarifies. He's like, no, no, it's not a kink quote. They Cannot tell animal from human unless they come down. They trust their machines and the motions. They see, they are lazy, they fly high. That way the search goes faster. End quote. Okay, now again, good Lord. A couple of things there. First, there is this idea, right? They cannot tell human from animal, animal from human.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

We have discussed this, like human, capital H, human distinction that the Bene Gesserit has been looking to make for thousands of years. Are you reactionary? Are you able to remove yourself from literally the animal who'd be caught in the trap using animals as this sort of derogatory, reactive thing? Well, here we are seeing this almost inversion of the idea where human, capital H, human is not necessarily the benefit that you think it is at this point. You have to return to that reactionary state for the benefit of not being able to be distinguished from a high altitude from animals. And in many ways, like being sensitive to. What does that mean? You know, I can't help but think about Taraza and Odrade going, taraza's incapable of simpatico. It's not that she chooses not to. It's not that she can choose to be reactionary and be animal, like, when she needs to. She is incapable of it. And that is a flaw, and that is a weakness. And here the strength is being able to do both. The strength is being able to resist the pain of the Gom Jabbar test and also chew on the fucking branch when you need to to avoid being detected.

[Abu]

Duncan.

[Leo]

Do it, Duncan. Chew. Mmm. Chew with your. Keep your. Show me your teeth. Show me your teeth while you're chewing, Duncan. You know, the Bene Gesserit spent millennia breeding humans to be able to pass this human test, to overcome their base animal instincts. So, yeah, this idea that Torms is saying, no, no, you have to really lean into the animal instincts to the reactionary. Like, you know, you might pause when you get scanned, but just return to normal business because they're used to it because they're constantly scanning these forests. It's fascinating. What an interesting inversion of that idea.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I also, by the way, I had not. Until we started thinking about this takeaway and we started writing about this, I had not pieced that connection together before this, that back literally in and before Paul's time, the Fremen survived by emulating the natural world and moving with it. We've talked about that for sure. But as that related to the human capital H, lower H like idea, I hadn't really put that together. The Bene Gesserit are aiming to steer humanity they're trying to steer this, like, vast vessel of the natural world with humanity and with humans, capital H at the helm. But they do so by, like, ignoring the fact that they are still a part of the natural world and denying themselves these very, like, natural things like love and attachment and hatred. They say, no, no, we're above all of that. We can resist those things. Those things are bad, and we are better because we've left them behind. Now, Leto, too, who did kind of the same thing, guided humanity, steered humanity, did so, but removed himself intentionally from humanity. He made himself the tyrant, capital T, and said, hey, I'm not even a part of that anymore. I think Leto understood that he needed to be literally a force of nature acting upon the natural qualities of humans as a creature, as a species, as an animal, rather than as, like, a human at the steering wheel of the vessel, if that makes sense. And I think there's something there. It's like, even back in the first book, we have Mohiam in the first chapter talking about putting Paul through this test. And then not like, I don't know, seven or eight chapters later, we have lessons that Paul is learning about the Fremen, basically, in the face of what the Bene Gesserit have taught. And that is how Jessica and Paul survive is by ignoring Bene Gesserit teachings. And here we're seeing the same thing coming back, but on a completely different planet. I don't know. I was like, dang, wow. I think I missed something in the first Dune book by Frank Herbert.

[Abu]

Yeah. And also notably, coming from an outsider, coming from Tornza, from the Scattering.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

From people who have been able to excise themselves from the status quo of this imperium, an imperium that for thousands of years has been influenced and puppeted from the shadows by the Bene Gesserit. And thus Bene Gesserit ideals have seeped their way into humanity.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Literal Bene Gesserit genetics and breeding have made their way into this imperium, this idea of be more animalistic to survive. Tap into your human, animalistic side. Don't fight it. Coming from Torms, coming from the scattering, coming from people who are entirely alien and have allowed this wild explosion of genes and ideas to proliferate in this unknown outer space that isn't this pocket of humanity where the status quo has been stagnant until it took Leto II to shake things up. But even then, the Bene Gesserit have continued to rule by their dogma. So I think you're absolutely right. Like, there's many more layers to this.

[Leo]

That's such a good point.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's even interesting to see where the ideas are coming from. This isn't a sister telling.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Duncan. To be more animalistic. This is Tor. An unknown lost one coming back from who knows where. From what Dr. Sue's Lorax Planet got orange fucking soup.

[Leo]

Doctors two O's, sook. What the. Yeah, but I think they're spitting some bars. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah, and I thought that was poignant as well, is that these new unknown ideas are coming from a culture that Duncan Tag Lucilla have no experience with man.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's a great point. The idea that this idea is coming from the uncontrolled, unpuppeted region of humanity. It's the. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. And just to kind of wrap up this point of human versus animal, Tormsa ends quote, they trust their own intelligence to read their instruments and tell which is animal and which is human. End quote. And of course, in the topic of, like, Ixian life scanners. Yeah, he's just talking about someone at their little, like, command terminal going, and it looks like a chipmunk. He's chewing on a branch. Chewing a lot of teeth, but he is chewing on a branch. So that's.

[Abu]

That's kind of a sexy chipmunk, but I'm getting distracted. I'm getting distracted. Move on.

[Leo]

Yeah, give me some privacy, cooperator. I just. I need to look at this chipmunk somewhere. But that aside, if we took that quote, they trust their own intelligence to read their instruments and tell which is animal, which is human. Good Lord. That sounds like a condemnation of the Bene Gesserit as well. Because for thousands and thousands of years, they have trusted their human test. Their instruments, their methods, their thoughts, their long practices. They've trusted those as like. No, no, no. Yeah, we figured it out. We got it. And again, that is something that we see time and time again disproven. Where they say the only way to handle abomination is to kill the child as soon as we know that it's a child. And then Leto and Ganima both solve abomination in two very different ways. And you're going, hey, fucking Bene Gesserit. You see this? You see this? Yeah. You could have done the same thing and you could have not been killing children this whole time. So it's like they are so full of themselves and they are so wrapped in their own Bene Gesserit dogma and Their own practices and their own methods. Even though they have suffered l after L, they have lost so many times against Paul and then against Leto and against, you know, every time, basically, that we've seen, I think that is another kind of indictment of that. It's like they are overly trustful of their own dogma. And that is something that we're getting in this book called Heretics of Dune, which explores the Bene Gesserit dogma and those who break from it and why.

[Abu]

Yeah, and another piece of the puzzle is the technological aspect, because these searchers up there and their thopters are relying on their technology and over. Relying on their technology to show them the sexy hot chipmunk showing too much teeth. Definitely just a chipmunk. Move on.

[Leo]

Move on. Yeah, it's just a. I'm gonna look back at it a couple more times.

[Abu]

Record part. That part of the livestream for later, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah, for later.

[Abu]

It shows this over reliance on technology to do their job, which is obviously very much thematically in line with many of the warnings throughout this book about machines and the human machine relationship. The whole basis of the Butlerian jihad and Frank's writing is this reliance that humanity began to lose its humanity and what made us people because we were just relying on the machines to do the human parts of our lives. You pulled this great quote from God, Emperor of Dune, from Leto that speaks to this idea. Quote, the target of the jihad was a machine attitude as much as the machines. Leto said humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom, out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed. End quote.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So at one point in this universe, there was a rebellion against machines and that there were warnings against being too reliant on them. And it's interesting to see that thousands of years after Leto's death, our antagonists are repeating that very same mistake. Being over reliant on their machinery to get the job done and not utilizing their own senses to do their job to complete what needs to be done. It's an interesting, interesting look at how that relationship between technology and humanity has evolved. You know, we've seen that a number of times in this story. We have artificial melange.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Even the man who served tag soup has been reconstructed in many ways. So we're seeing technology make its way back into humanity in a way. You know, we're seeing the cycle maybe come back around again in a way that Leto warned against, but certainly that humanity once fought against in the Balerian jihad.

[Leo]

Yeah, and again, it's not about necessarily just technology because in this book we're also seeing the Bene Gesserit dogma and the Bene Gesserit overreliance on other memory and things like that being the same sin, the same sin of overreliance to the point of getting it wrong. Right? We are seeing Lucilla realizing, oh, we fucked up by not having firsthand experience of the world. And we've over relied on I'm a reverend mother, for God's sakes, and I'm out of my element. Like, what the fuck? I'm supposed to have every element within me that is the machine attitude. But applied to other memory. And then also it's like, okay, let's say machines are the enemy or machines are this cold, unhuman thing. Isn't it then ironic that the most human thing that we read today, that brought me almost to tears, the guy saying, I don't know what they did to you, but you are safe here, my son lives because of you. Said all of that with an artificial voice that came through a voice modulator. Ah, like what a human sentiment? What a human appreciative, like love coming through this artificial voice. It's not about the technology. It's not about the technology. It's about like what we're doing with it and how we live with it, how it's being used, the living decisions, our sense of beauty, necessary selfdom. Right. These are the, these are the core tenets of Frank's warnings about technology.

[Abu]

Great point. Yes, absolutely.

[Leo]

There's room to discuss what exactly the Butlerian jihad looked like A especially with Dune prophecy and all this recent talk about the prequels and sequels. But I think something above that debate is Frank's warnings are not about technology. It's about that taking away human sense of beauty, necessary selfdom, living judgments and those attitudes, the attitudes that usurp those, the status quo over reliance. It's all, it's all the same, right?

[Abu]

It's not a Luddite view of everyone smash your MacBooks, they're bad for us. Right? That's an overly simplistic like Luddite view. It's a machine attitude. As Lehto said in this quote that we shared. It is the attitude. It is how we treat the technology and how we allow the technology to treat us and how we use it to treat each other. You can use an artificial voice box to express gratitude to a Bashar who saved her son's life. That attitude with technology is fine. Nobody's saying smash all the voice boxes. All voice boxes are bad.

[Leo]

Yeah. Except for Manford. Toronto.

[Abu]

Except for Manford. Fucking Toronto. So you're absolutely right. That's spot on, Leo. You're absolutely correct. It's not just about the use of tech and how it plays a role in our lives, but it's about our attitude about tech as well. What we use it for, the intention behind it, and the applications of its uses.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think also this is all very resonant, and this kind of, like, wraps up our point, I guess, but I think this is all very resonant because this is a book where Taraza is on this knife's edge. She's sensing the key logs, the blockage of this river of humanity and the impending chaos, the turmoil. Something's coming to a head. We're not sure what yet. The honored matre are coming back from the scattering. There is a sense of existential peril, but we're not exactly sure what is the linchpin. Like, what is going to be the thing that either permits us to live and continue or will condemn us all to extinction. And one of the questions there is to Rasah going, was Leto's Golden Path truly secured? Surely it cannot be in peril because he succeeded, maybe, or are we still on it? And I think all of this speaks to. There are a lot of people, whether it's the ones piloting the Ixian scanners, who kind of, in a bureaucratic way, they have made a decision through laziness over reliance on their technology, but also a decision to get the job done faster. Because I'm sure for them, they're just like underlings who don't give a shit. They're taking a step back, just making their day easier. Whatever. We are watching pieces of the Imperium kind of slide back into that machine attitude slide back into existential peril. Because the lessons of the Golden Path haven't necessarily been cemented potentially. And we're still not sure, I think, based on what we're seeing. But it does seem very resonant that we have other chapters where Taraza alone in her office is going to what the fuck is gonna happen? And then we see on the ground this stuff happening and the uncertainty and the alien ness of it all. It's all very connected and I think intentionally so.

[Abu]

Right. And the Golden Path is not a thing that you complete. Yeah, right. It is something that is pruned constantly. Humanity always has to avoid stagnation and existential threats to itself. And Leto did that, you know, recall in God Emperor of Dune, he told Moneo, like, I've already avoided like a half a dozen existential threats in my 3,000 year rule. It's whatever.

[Leo]

Humanity would have been extinct by now if not for decisions I've made.

[Abu]

Yeah, Right. So he spent 3,000 years pruning, but also trying to teach. And now it's up to the leaders of modern humanity, who at the moment are seemingly the Bene Gesserit, to continue that job. You know, he's kind of like, can you keep doing what I set out to do? Like, you can't just coast. There's no coasting on the golden path.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Constant vigilance.

[Leo]

It's like love. You can't just achieve it and then never work at it again. You got to keep. You got to keep at it. You got to keep working.

[Abu]

Always be flirting.

[Leo]

Always be flirting. Somehow we've fallen back into chipmunk mode with, with Duncan. He's just like, always be fucking seducing.

[Abu]

That's right. What a great takeaway. There's a lot of great ideas. And again, a seemingly very simple, short chapter.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But once you dig into it, you're.

[Leo]

Like, we're talking about like two paragraphs.

[Abu]

Yeah, Literally, it's like two paragraphs of Tormza talking that has like, you know, hours and hours of depth to it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's what makes this book and Frank's writings so special.

[Leo]

So we're gonna take a last quick break before we get to our spice morsels and before we wrap up.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Don't go anywhere, dear listener. We'll be right back right after this.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Hope you're hungry, because we have some delicious spice morsels to feed you. Get ready to chipmunk for us.

[Leo]

Chipmunk for us listeners. Show us your teeth.

[Abu]

So let's dive into our spice morsels today. So first up, let's talk about some of this nonsense that Jaffa is saying.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Dor, the eternal rock of Dor Guldur Guldur. Let's talk about some of these ideas. Children, stay away, please. So we learn in Brismalis and Lucilla's chapter from these scary little children that Guldor is the local title for Leto, too.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

Interesting.

[Leo]

Okay, yeah.

[Abu]

In the previous chapter immediately preceding that, Jaffa tells Teg that he is a regional commander for the forces of Leto.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that might make some of you like it made us think, wait a second. Are those the same thing? Is Dur just short for Guldur? Because if they are the same thing, that raises some fascinating questions about what the fuck is going on here on Gamu. First of all, if Jaffa is working for the Honored Matres, he's a mercenary. He seems to be on the payroll of the Honored Matres. Does this mean that the Honored Matres are part of the forces of Dur? Or is it just Jaffa as a part of a force of Duar being employed by the Honored Matres? Because what's interesting is, throughout this whole book, we know so little about the Honored Matres that. And we don't have a sense of what they think of Leto to the God Emperor. Right, right. Leto II would have left an imprint on all of humanity, including the humanity that went out to the scattering. So what exactly are the legends about Leto out there in the fucking, like, Dr. Seuss world that Java came from? It raises some really interesting questions. And what exactly even are is the religion of the Honored Matres, if they have one? Something we haven't really explored in this book yet. This also, of course, makes me think of the Fish Speakers, because we were told in sort of like a passing comment in this book, that many of the Fish speaker remnants also went out into the Scattering. So are the forces of Dor, these believers in Leto, two remnants of Fish Speakers that went out to the Scattering and reshaped into something else? That then raises another hairy question, because we learned that the Lost Ones have been back on Gamu for, like, a hundred years. Teg learns about this today.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In the. In the ground car. Which raises sort of a chicken or egg question about this Goldor religion then. Did the Lost Ones who came back from the Scattering introduce the Goldor religion to Gamu over the last hundred years? Or did the Gamu natives who already worshiped Leto ii, this sect of Guldor, introduce that idea to the Lost Ones to people like Jaffa? I think either scenario could be possible given the timeline. And it raises, again, kind of like, brings up really interesting questions about who the forces of Duor are and what this Gul Dor religion is. And if they're the same thing, where did it originate from? Is this a scattering idea brought here or is this a home front idea that the scattering folks have also now adopted? Because clearly there's a sharing and blending of culture happening on Gamu. The other interesting question, of course, is what the heck is the eternal Rock of Dor?

[Leo]

Yeah. By the eternal.

[Abu]

What are you talking about? Jarfa? Like again, if we're connecting this to Leto to. And the sect of Guldor, is this referring to like some Leto to thing? What rock is this? Is this what they call the Golden Path out there and the scattering? Maybe. Is it a physical rock or artifact of some kind that's been left over from Leto's time and that went out into the scattering with these people? I mean, we don't know, right? We're just asking questions. We aren't given answers to these things. But it is so fascinating to consider the evolution of religion and ideas and how those things have cross pollinated across the Lost Ones and the people of the Imperium over the last hundred years as these folks from the scattering have come rushing back with their ideas and culture.

[Leo]

Yeah. All super interesting questions. And I think as this book wraps up and as we get into Chapter House, maybe we'll get more information about it. We'll have to kind of wait.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And yeah, like, what the fuck is the Rock of Dur? This is like.

[Abu]

I really want to know.

[Leo]

Leito's Glock that he kept in the. They were like. They were like legends. Spoke of a thing he held. Oh, it's a rock. It's like. No, no, it's a Glock.

[Abu]

Glock, not rock.

[Leo]

Guys, it's the holy.

[Abu]

You're pronouncing it wrong.

[Leo]

The Glock of door by the Glock of door. Oh, no. They spoke of his powerful Glock.

[Abu]

Incredible. Yeah, because we know he certainly didn't have a door.

[Leo]

Moneo. Did I ever tell you? Did I?

[Abu]

Duncan. I don't have a penis.

[Leo]

I don't have a penis. Duncan. I think it's been a few minutes since I mentioned that. I'll do it again, but I'll swing my Glock around. Okay. Well, Ridiculous. Okay. Our second and last morsel today is Golder again. We're really hooked up on this. Goldur. But this time. And Sauron and J.R.R. tolkien.

[Abu]

I've heard those words.

[Leo]

What? This is a different book series. Crazy. Well, today's morsel. This morsel is a kind of fun coincidence and a little bit of research we did, it's kind of always fun to dive into some rabbit holes of letters and unpublished stuff.

[Abu]

Yeah, you found a great quote here.

[Leo]

But considering Frank already in this book has taken a swipe at C3PO, you know, an inferior copy that everyone recognizes as being fucking shit. And it's called Rhymes with Mar fors by Morge Blucas, we wanted to take a quick moment to explore another possible tip of the hat, which is Golder.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Now, in The Hobbit by J.R.R. tolkien, back in 1937, there is reference to, quote, the dungeons of the Necromancer and as well as like a dark keep and a tower. Now, later in later manuscripts and publications, we learn that this is Dol Guldur and this is, it's like named on a map. And there's some room for adjusting, like where it takes place in the original books by Tolkien, but in the film adaptations of the Hobbit, the trilogy movie series that we all definitely loved because it's perfect. What a series of movies. We actually get to see quite a bit of Goldur. Like we see a fucking lot of is a set of dilapidated ruins. Gandalf explores it and is captured by the Necromancer. And Spoopy. And very spoopy. And then is saved by Galadriel, Saruman and Elrond.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And so that is that sequence, if you can recall that sequence from the movies, those really excellent movies we saw, that is Dol Guldur.

[Abu]

Yes. And the Necromancer, for folks not in the know, like Sauron, this is one of the strongholds of Sauron.

[Leo]

Was. Was it? Anyway, I don't know as much about Lord of the Rings.

[Abu]

Yeah, Dol Guldor, you know, quote Dungeons of the Necromancer, capital N, Necromancer. Sauron also goes by Necromancer oftentimes in the lore. So, yeah, Gandalf was up there exploring because he was like, is Sauron back? And then he got his ass captured and he's like, oh, my God, Sauron's back.

[Leo]

I think, holy shit, he captured me. There he is.

[Abu]

So there's a connection to, you know, a capital T, tyrant in the Lord of the Rings universe.

[Leo]

Oh, pretty good. So it is possible, timeline wise, that this could be overlap, that this could be frank going, oh, this is fun. But no, it's. It's like a 1% chance at 99% chance this is just a coincidence. You know, we're choosing fantasy names. It's going to happen. Sometimes that things overlap. Totally happens. In our favorite franchises everywhere. But as I was looking into this, there was a feeling of, like, wait, did Frank read Lord of the Rings? Did he? Was he a fan of it? Was he on record being like, what a great series of books. Didn't find anything there. But what I did find was that Tolkien had read Dune and didn't like it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Loved it.

[Abu]

Oh, no.

[Leo]

Oh, no. I know. He was like, gildor, Gildor, get out of your book. So as a. As an additional little mini morsel, did y' all know that Tolkien disliked Dune? Now, there is a book, it's a 1990s book called Tolkien's An Annotated Checklist, which featured a lot of research that Oronzo Chile did is an Italian author. Oranzo did a bunch of research, gathered, like, letters and papers from Tolkien's library, I guess, and kind of presented them and referenced them. And in the footnotes of that page, there is a letter that Tolkien wrote. Two letters, actually, that he wrote, one of which was to John Bush in 1966. And this is the letter that J.R.R. tolkien wrote to John Doodle in 1966. Quote, thank you for sending me a copy of Dune. I received one last year from Lanier and so already know something about the book. It is impossible for an author still writing to be fair to another author working along the same lines. At least I find it so. In fact, I dislike Dune with some intensity.

[Abu]

Yo.

[Leo]

And in that unfortunate case, it is much better and fairest to another author to keep silent and refuse to comment.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Would you like me to return the book as I already have one, or to hand it on? End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Altogether hilarious. Like, I think that's so funny. He's like, I'm not going to comment on this book that I dislike quite intensely. Uh, could have even just left that out, but I did have to check myself because for sure, this is a private letter he wrote to a friend or, like, a colleague. Uh, so ultimately, I. I imagine he didn't expect this to be published publicly for the world to see.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

But nevertheless, even in private, correspondence was like, it's not chill, really, for an author to shit on another author. So I'm just going to refrain from comment. I didn't super dig it. Anyway, what do you want me to do with this copy that you've sent me? Do you want me to send it back? Do you want me to pass it on? All in all, like, a super kind of nice letter.

[Abu]

It's very polite. Yeah, it's very polite. And this doesn't indicate Right. This isn't some huge revelation that there was some beef between Tolkien and. No, this was a private letter to a friend. Very likely never intended to be published in any way. And it's just fun and interesting because, like, look, Tolkien didn't like Dune. And that's funny. That's interesting. I mean, man, of course, I'm deathly curious what he didn't like about Dune. And I wished he had fucking gone off to his friend John Bush in this letter and listed all his grievances.

[Leo]

We could have done a whole episode on it.

[Abu]

Fuck, we would have done a whole episode on that. So all we can do is speculate what exactly about Dune JRR Tolkien disliked so intensely, but he took the high road. He took the polite road with a fellow author and just kept his. Kept his mouth shut. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. All right, folks, those are our spice morsels for today. Hope you enjoyed some delicious little details to chomp down on. And that wraps it up. That wraps it up for today's book club episode. We are closing in on the end of Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So here's your assignment for next time, folks. Make sure that you have read through chapter 42, and if your book is different than ours, then read through the chapter that ends on the sentence quote, this ghola goes to Rakis and Gua.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

Oh, shit.

[Leo]

I wonder who they're talking about. Is that Bruce? Molly. Whoa.

[Abu]

Sounds like things are about to get real.

[Leo]

Can't believe Tormsa is actually a Gola and he's going to Arrakis. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Exciting stuff. Can't wait to get through the rest of this book. Make sure you do the reading before the next episode.

[Leo]

We have three more episodes. We have 14, 15, and 16. Huh? That's crazy.

[Abu]

How exciting.

[Leo]

Well, dear listener, before we let you leave, we do want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to get in touch with us if you have any questions, comment, feedback, or whatever. Hopes and dreams. The two best ways to support us is to become a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar and to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. Check those out.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Help us do what we do.

[Abu]

And, folks, we love to hear from you. So email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts, your questions, your cute pets. We promise we won't publicly publish your letters. And emails in a book in 50 years. But maybe we will if it's juicy.

[Leo]

What do you hate and why?

[Abu]

Right, but just in case, like, don't take the high road. Don't be polite.

[Leo]

Dish, dish.

[Abu]

We want it all. Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com Spill the tea.

[Leo]

Spill the tea. Tea. We will nibble.

[Abu]

We are drama queens and we want it.

[Leo]

We will nibble that branch. Teeth out. Yeah. I'd like to report a chipmunk that I'm seeing in quadrant four, and I recommend you take a look. This is a.

[Abu]

Okay, I'm pulling it up. I'm pulling it up. Oh.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah. You see it?

[Abu]

Are we. Are we seeing the same chipmunk?

[Leo]

I think big, big chipmunk.

[Abu]

Yeah, real big.

[Leo]

Real big. Oh, look at him.

[Abu]

Are you see. Are you seeing those teeth?

[Leo]

What is he.

[Abu]

Wait, I'm going to zoom in. Enhance. Hold on, hold on. I'm moving the drone. Moving drone.

[Leo]

Enhance enhancing.

[Abu]

Oh.

[Leo]

Oh, teeth. Look at those canines. Biggest canines I've seen on a chipmun.

[Abu]

Wow. Wait, I'm. Hold on. I'm gonna move the drone. Let me. Let's look at the other angle.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, the other end. Look at those.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Fluffy tail. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Pull Party. We also have videos of select episodes available on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.