Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 14)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast - Episode Summary: Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 14)
Release Date: May 30, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo

---

Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosted by Abu and Leo from Lore Party Media, the hosts delve into the 14th part of their book club series focusing on Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune. Recorded live for Patreon patrons on YouTube, Abu and Leo navigate through chapters 40 to 42, offering insightful analysis and engaging discussions tailored for both longtime fans and newcomers to the Dune universe.

---

Chapter Summaries

Chapter 40: Tenuous Alliances and Hidden Agendas [05:09]

Abu and Leo begin by setting the stage for Chapter 40, where a high-stakes meeting takes place at the penthouse of Dar Es Balat Museum. Here, alliances between the Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu Face Dancers, and the Rakian priesthood are tested. The Bene Gesserit, led by Odrade, subtly exert their influence, showcasing their unparalleled ability to maneuver behind the scenes.

Leo [06:28]: "It's clear throughout this meeting how masterfully the Bene Gesserit are truly pulling the strings. They are in charge by a margin, and it's pretty wild to see."

The tension escalates as the priesthood demands the replacement of a Face Dancer named Tuek, leading to confusion and suspicion among the factions present. Odrade's strategic interventions ensure the peace, further highlighting the Bene Gesserit's dominance.

Chapter 41: Compromised Safe Houses and Betrayals [18:25]

Moving to Chapter 41, Lucilla and Brismoli face unexpected challenges while attempting to escape a compromised safe house in Yasai. Their encounter with Merbella, an Honored Matre, reveals the ruthless nature of the Honored Matres and their unyielding pursuit of their goals.

Abu [20:27]: "She reveals the ghola has been captured and she's prepping him for the betting ceremony. Things are ready to go, and you just arrived at the perfect moment. Come watch."

The chapter underscores the constant threat faced by the protagonists and the intricate web of deceit that defines the Dune universe.

Chapter 42: Duncan Idaho's Awakening and Moral Dilemmas [25:52]

Chapter 42 centers on Duncan Idaho's profound awakening as he grapples with memories from his past lives. This ghola, unlike his predecessors, experiences a flood of memories spanning over 3,000 years, challenging his loyalty and identity.

Leo [30:18]: "These memories are not entirely this Duncan's. They are every Duncan's memories of the last 3,000 plus years."

The hosts discuss the controversial portrayal of Duncan as a minor involved in manipulative scenarios, sparking debates about consent and the ethical dimensions of using sex as a tool for control within the narrative.

---

Takeaways and Analysis

Exploring Duncan Idaho's Complexity [41:04]

Abu and Leo delve deep into Duncan Idaho's character development, particularly focusing on his unprecedented accumulation of memories and the resultant identity crisis. They analyze how Duncan's evolving perception of the Atreides and his internal conflict mirror broader themes of power, loyalty, and autonomy.

Abu [53:11]: "This is a new Duncan, an evolved Duncan. Perhaps we're seeing Duncan begin to question and change his own core belief system rather than, say, be loyal to the people and institutions."

The discussion touches upon the philosophical underpinnings of Herbert's work, emphasizing the intricate balance between individual agency and overarching power structures.

Controversial Depictions of Sexuality [28:30]

A significant portion of the episode addresses the contentious sexual scenes in Chapter 42, where Duncan's interactions raise ethical questions. The hosts critique the clinical portrayal of these scenes, arguing that they serve more as narrative devices for manipulation rather than genuine character development.

Leo [30:18]: "The sex scenes are very clinical. It's not about the act itself or the romantic element; it's about power and control."

They acknowledge the discomfort these depictions may cause, especially concerning the portrayal of a minor, and discuss the potential impact on readers' perceptions of consent and agency within the series.

---

Morsels: World-Building and Real-World Parallels

Architectural Oppression on Giedi Prime [73:04]

The hosts explore the detailed description of Giedi Prime's architecture, highlighting how the oppressive design symbolizes the socio-economic stratification imposed by House Harkonnen. This analysis draws parallels to real-world societal structures and the mechanisms of control within them.

Abu [48:46]: "Here in Barony and on Giedi Prime, the physical, economic, social, mental, and emotional layers are meant to keep the people down below exactly where they are their whole lives."

Advanced Light Filtering Technology [76:05]

Abu and Leo discuss the Ixian dual bonds, an advanced form of light filtering technology featured in the book. They relate it to real-world museum practices, emphasizing the importance of light management in preserving artifacts.

Leo [76:08]: "They make such good blinds. Thank you, Ixians."

Additionally, they reflect on the growing issue of satellite light pollution in our skies, drawing a creative comparison to the moon descriptions in the book.

---

Conclusion

In this engaging episode, Abu and Leo provide a comprehensive analysis of Heretics of Dune, navigating through complex character developments, controversial themes, and intricate world-building elements. Their thoughtful discussions encourage listeners to delve deeper into the philosophical and ethical dimensions of Frank Herbert's work, fostering a richer appreciation of the Dune universe.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo [06:28]: "It's clear throughout this meeting how masterfully the Bene Gesserit are truly pulling the strings."

• Abu [20:27]: "She reveals the ghola has been captured and she's prepping him for the betting ceremony."

• Abu [53:11]: "This is a new Duncan, an evolved Duncan."

• Leo [30:18]: "The sex scenes are very clinical. It's not about the act itself or the romantic element; it's about power and control."

• Abu [48:46]: "Here in Barony and on Giedi Prime, the physical, economic, social, mental, and emotional layers are meant to keep the people down below exactly where they are their whole lives."

---

Join Abu and Leo every other Friday as they continue to unravel the complexities of the Dune universe, offering insights that bridge the gap between classic literature and contemporary adaptations.

Transcript

[Abu]

There seems to have been a mistake.

[Leo]

Patrons, what should the Gom Jabbar podcast do now?

[Abu]

They shall continue to make episodes about Dune.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's reasonable. The business of this meeting appears to have been concluded. It was easy. It's quick.

[Abu]

I don't think that. Honestly, I want the priest to try and compete with us. Get priests.

[Leo]

Give us a revival. Rakan priesthood. Come at us. Have a two star rating on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh, and today on the show. Sure, I'm glad this book isn't over. We are continuing to read Heretics of Dune.

[Abu]

How exciting. And folks, there's a bit of a wrinkle today.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Love it.

[Abu]

Because we are recording this episode live exclusively for our patrons over on YouTube.

[Leo]

Oh, hot dog.

[Abu]

So throughout today's conversation, obviously we're going to be going through chapters 40, 41 and 42, getting into our takeaways, all that good book club stuff that you're used to. But we might also be responding to some live chat happening over on YouTube as well. So this is sort of a half live show, half regular podcast, but mostly regular podcasts.

[Leo]

Yeah, probably mostly regular podcast. Well, let's take care of our housekeeping before we get too far into it. And as always, we have our spoiler warning up top. Today's episode will contain no spoilers. Zilch. Zero. Few and far between spoilers beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far. So if you're caught up with all of our book club episodes, you're safe to listen today.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Quezadz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion shouts to Daniel in the chat, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchins, and a brand new Kwisatz Hatter level patron, Seth Redden.

[Leo]

Greer. Dang. That's three names. What up, Seth?

[Abu]

I think it's two. It's hyphenated.

[Leo]

Yeah, but whatever. I don't have a hyphen in my name, so I don't know how it works.

[Abu]

Thank you all so much for truly being the bedrock upon which this show runs. Of course, that gratitude extends to all of our patrons at every level who help build that foundation that keeps the show running. We could not thank you enough.

[Leo]

And we literally couldn't do it without you. And hey, if you're listening and you're not able to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, of course we do have a one time tip link in the show notes. You can buy us a spice coffee, complete with the spit portion.

[Abu]

That's right, we'll drink it. Don't think we won't.

[Leo]

We are thirsty.

[Abu]

Okay, housekeeping. Out of the way. Y' all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We will begin with a summary of today's reading. Then we'll dive deeper into a juicy takeaway about our boy Duncan motherfucking Idaho. And then we will wrap up by chomping down on some yummy spice morsels. So before we jump in, Leo, I know you're antsy to start betting Duncan Idaho. I've been waiting, but you gotta wait like 60 seconds. Let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listeners, we'll be right back and we'll get into these chapters.

[Leo]

The suspense makes it feel better. This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to ditch the blacktop and head off road, do it in a truck that's says no to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail boss get the rugged capability of its Z71 suspension and 2 inch factory lift. Plus impressive torque and towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3 liter turbo diesel engine. Where other trucks call it quits, you'll just be getting started. Visit chevy.com to learn more.

[Abu]

Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever.

[Leo]

From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways.

[Abu]

In your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and.

[Leo]

Free returns in store order pickup and more.

[Abu]

Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.

[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Hope you're ready to dive into some spicy chapters.

[Abu]

Woo.

[Leo]

Kicking off today's reading with chapter 40. Good a place to start as any in our first chapter. Today we are joining the highest of stakes meetings. Folks, are you tired of two people in a room talking? I'm here to introduce to you a new product. 30 people in a room talking. Because everyone's here. We are 30 some this a 30. It's a big old party and everyone's got their socks off. We are at a penthouse on the top of Dar Es Balat Museum. Surrounded by relics of the God Emperor's life. And we are witnessing a meeting between the members of Odrade's tenuous alliance, which includes the Sisterhood. Taraz is here. Hot dog. The Tleilaxu Waff is here with a bunch of Face Dancers. Crazy. And the priesthood, the Rakian priesthood. Now the priests are enraged. They want the Face Dancer Tuek to be replaced. They're like, nah, you know what? We're not cool with this. Get the. Get him the fuck out of here. What are you. What are we doing? Tuek is confused and indignant. He's like, what do you mean? I'm Tuek. Good old Tuek. I went to. We all hung out for years. Remember the shots? Shots, shots, shots. That was me. That was me, his friend Tuek.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And. And both the Tleilaxu and the Sisterhood are poised on the knife's edge, ready for at any moment, violence or peace. I mean, really, it's like it could go either way. Now, everyone is suspicious. This is a universe of plans within plans. Everyone's trying to suss out everyone else's plans. But it is clear throughout this meeting how masterfully the Bene Gesserit are truly pulling the strings. They are in charge by a margin, and it's pretty wild to see.

[Abu]

Very much so.

[Leo]

Now, in one of the juiciest moments of the meeting, it is revealed to Waf that he has completely lost control of the Face Dancer, who is playing the part of High Priest Tuk, which is fucking crazy. Tuk's lost in the sauce, man. He's. He's Daniel Day Lewis. He's like, no, no, I am Abraham Lincoln. I don't know what you're talking about. He is fully bought in.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And something I missed on my first read through is actually Taraza's thought following that Waf quote had not extended the discovery in here to what might be happening with his mimics among Ixians and fish speakers.

[Abu]

Wild.

[Leo]

Waf had more shocks coming, end quote. Which is crazy.

[Abu]

Crazy. They pushed out that Face Dancer 2.0 update to all their servers.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And they're about to get fucking skynetted by all of these Face dancers actually believing they are the people they're mimicking.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The implications are crazy.

[Leo]

It's crazy. And the other thing is, we started this book kind of realizing, oh, this is really a universe poised between the Bene Tleilax and the Bene Gesserit, but. But now it seems like the Benny Tleilax did too well. And now have just lost all of their chips.

[Abu]

Yeah. Nothing makes it more clear than this chapter in the book that WAF and the Bene Gesserit as a whole have bit off more than they can chew.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think this is the chapter where, at least to me, it becomes abundantly clear that's the case.

[Leo]

Yeah, 1,000%. It's like everyone's got plans within plans, but there is the, like, Trader Joe's plans within plans. And then there's like, the good stuff, you know, and the Bene Gesserit have the good stuff. The Tleilax who have the one that's like 30% better for your heart or whatever the fuck and $20 more terrible.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Anyway, tell us how you really feel about. Yeah, I've been there once or twice now, Tuek. His claim to authenticity is sowing a ton of confusion and doubt within the priests. This is so funny, because they were all told, they're just fucking guys. Like, they're just guys doing their best. They were told, hey, by the way, your high priest is dead. And now he's a face dancer. But now their face dancer high priest is like, what are you talking about? John? John, you remember. I. I was at your daughter's. But I was at your daughter's bat mitzvah. Like, where birds. I don't know.

[Abu]

From the window to the wall for the sweat guy. Shot.

[Leo]

Shot.

[Abu]

Shots.

[Leo]

That was me, dude. You and me together. We were doing so many body. I. I drank tequila out of your belly button, John. And John's like, I mean, I don't want. I didn't want you to say that in front of all these TAs.

[Abu]

Like, I do remember that night. But, like, you didn't have to spell it out so clearly for everyone in the room.

[Leo]

O is like, shana, cover your ears. It's a lot. So they're confused because naturally, the face dancers throwing all this off. And Odra reassures T. She's like, all right. I mean, if you're going to give me the. Going to, just give me the check on. In this chessboard. I'll take it. Hey, Tuek, we back your continued leadership. I don't know what this WAF dude is talking about. You're great. You're good.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

Way to go. And. And then basically tells the rest of the leadership, yeah, I guess we're wrong, because Waffles told us. And I don't know, Waf seems kind of stupid, doesn't he? And all the humans are like, yeah, I guess he is. All the priests are like, yeah, he does seem pretty stupid. To fully seal the deal with the priests, to kind of set this confusion to rest, Shiana steps forward. Holy child. Shiana herself steps forward and says, yeah, what Odrade said. And everything basically settles. But kind of the incredible part of this play is that on the tail end of it, we now have a Tleilaxu problem. Like a problematic Tleilaxu face dancer who is now a Bene Gesserit servant. Like, it's. It's kind of an incredible inversion of power dynamics here.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Quote, they could see the acceptance and understanding in him. He had become a creature of the Bene Gesserit. He remembered nothing of his face dancer origins. End quote. Wild, kind of fun, kind of faradin vibes in some ways. Like, they're seeing this non BG fall into the BG camp and they go, well, oops, too late.

[Abu]

It's amazing, you know, like, honestly, on a first read of this chapter, I was, like, kind of confused what was happening. But reading it and then rereading it and then listening to the audiobook, I was like, oh, my God. The Bene Gesserit are, like, doing a bit. They're like, putting on this whole play in order to achieve two goals. One, to pacify the priests. Right? Because the whole reason we're in this, like, argument in this meeting right now is because the priests are like, we don't want to be ruled by a face dancer. Let's oust this guy. Vote one of us as the next high priest.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

And Tuk is like, what are you talking about? John, John.

[Leo]

John.

[Abu]

So, you know, there's all this confusion. And then the Bene Gesserit here are like, okay, let's use that to our advantage. Let's not only secure this alliance with the priests and pacify them and prove to them that Tuek is actually Tuek. Actually, whoops. Waff gave us bad info. Kind of blame it on Waff, but also to then turn Tuek into. Turn his loyalty to them.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Abu]

Like the one, two punch of this show that they just put on for everyone. Ugh. Just masterful stuff, you know?

[Leo]

It's so cool. I love it. It's great. Now, speaking of, they do have to deal with waffle. So Taraza cuts through the bullshit.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

Calls him out. She's like, bro, you've been holding out on us. You got a lot of info you weren't sharing with us. Going to hit you with that Catholic guilt. Give me 20 Hail Marys or Whatever. And basically she says, quote, would you dishonor yourself in the land of the Prophet? You have not shared openly as you said you would, end quote. Calling him out for his lies. And it's true. Waff is playing a double game. He's trying to manipulate the Bene Gesserit. He's trying to manipulate the Honored Matre. He's looking for that great belief, that final goal of the Benny Toileks. And it's clear that for sure, as you said, he's bitten off way more than he can chew. And Taraza takes a risky shot. She actually almost gets herself killed.

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

She reveals Odrade's theory about the axolotl tanks. She goes, listen, you will never make one of us into an axolotl tank. And Waff near, like, is like, okay, kill them, kill them. On. When I do the hand gesture, I'm about to do the hand gesture, and then she has to stop him and go, by the way, if you do that, if you finish telling them to kill us, you're going to lose everything forever and you're never going to be accepted by the God. And it's. Luckily it works, but my God, it was like a sliver of a second from being. Bloodshed everywhere. And not that they couldn't handle themselves, but like, not the outcome that anybody wants. Right?

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

Now, with that sort of ace played, Waf realizes, oh, shit, they do know that I've been withholding. Okay, I will tell you more, but you can never use these abilities on any of us. And, and we've already pre programmed every Benny Toilek agent to automatically go into kill mode if it's ever attempted on any of us. It's like, oh, okay. Very, very cautious, but altogether a fair, fair play.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

He tells her about the sexual abilities of the Honored Matre. Quote, they can magnify the sensations of the orgasmic platform, transmitting this throughout a male body. They elicit the total sensual involvement of the male. Total, total, total sensual involvement of the male. Multiple orgasmic waves are created and may be continued by the, the female for an extended period. End quote. And everyone's like, all right, sure. And he goes, you know what? This is better. Hey, face dancers, come, come do it. Come demonstrate for everyone. He pulls up the pornhub tab. He's like, okay, so here's the URL. This is, this will show you everything. And of course, the gathered sisters are committing everything they're seeing to memory. Everyone in the room's learning, including Shiana, who's like, this Is a lot. This is a lot going on.

[Abu]

Me too. I'm also taking notes. I'm taking notes as well for the test next week and only for the test next week.

[Leo]

Total sensual involvement. You say? I am curious. Let's show me. Show me. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious too. Yeah, they're like just. The priests are taking notes on their little notepads. They're like, oh, this is. This is fascinating. Intellectually it's fascinating.

[Abu]

It's not right. Totally.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I'm. I'm. My brain so stimulated.

[Leo]

So my, my brain is hard right now. Well, the chapter ends as Odrade ponders what they learned later that day alone in her room. And she's considering. She is playing the Sherlock Holmes type right now. She's connecting the dots. She's comparing connections between Cyanoke, the sort of like ceremony of the wives that Leto too had back in the day, to the dancers in the square that she witnessed. This sort of like building without rhythm, the 200 steps of repetition and how it all ties into itself. And also these sexual abilities and the sort of like the bass dancers who were doing this demonstration had similar, like avoiding these regular rhythms and kind of disrupting flows. And it was very, very interesting. It sounds. And she's kind of contemplating how it's all interconnected.

[Abu]

Yeah, we'll definitely talk about this in the future, more in depth at some point. But it's clear that Frank very much believed or was interested in this idea that warfare and human nature and violence are interconnected with sex and sexual energy and the release of sexual tension. Those are the connections that Odrade is drawing here. Right. The evolution of C and Oak as like a. This religious pent up fervor being released as now this dance of like death in the square to the patterns of like maintaining a rhythm and orgasm, infinite orgasms for extended periods of time, like the sexual release and that being used as a weapon of war from the. So she's kind of connecting these philosophical threads that I think Frank was also quite interested in exploring in this book and in chapter house as well.

[Leo]

Yeah, it is interesting and I have a very hot take that I'm going to share after the third chapter. So just teasing you all now, but it's a little bit about that, I think, I think titillating about Frank.

[Abu]

I know my brain is. So.

[Leo]

Is your brain totally sensually involved?

[Abu]

Yeah, I can't wait. Okay, moving on to chapter 41. This is a fairly quick one in this chapter. Lucilla and Brismoli leave that safe house they were in in the city of Yasai, and they make their way out to an abandoned Harkonnen factory, where allegedly, allies will be there to help them get off planet and get to Rakis, you know, the ultimate goal.

[Leo]

What a simple.

[Abu]

It's also where they're presumably going to be linking up with Duncan, who's coming from a different path with Torso.

[Leo]

Yeah. Easy. Simple. Nice. Cool.

[Abu]

Great plan. I love it. I love when a plan comes together. Oh, no. The safe house is comparable.

[Leo]

Oh, no. Who could have known? I feel like this keeps happening every single time.

[Abu]

The safe house is compromised. There's already an Honored Matre here, the young hot babe known as Merbella. And luckily, Lucilla's disguise and the disguise that she and Brismoli are in is enough to, like, trick Mirbella. You know, Mirbella's not immediately suspicious, and she immediately doesn't attack them or arrest them or anything like that. In fact, Mirbella thinks that Lucilla is one of her elders, you know, a fellow superior Honored Matre. She shows respect to Lucilla. We also see in this interaction as they kind of suss each other out, how perhaps the honored Matres treat the locals of Gamu, because Mirbella continues to dismiss Bursmalli and continues to call Brismoli it. And is, like, disgusted by his presence, is wondering why he's still alive at this point. Like, he was your guide. He got you here. Why does he need to be here any longer? Can we just kill him? She fucking knocks his ass on the floor. At one point, showing us her prowess. Being able to take down Bruce Molly is no easy feat.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah.

[Abu]

She also, perhaps more importantly, reveals in this back and forth that the ghola has been captured and she's prepped him for the betting ceremony.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Things are ready to go, and you just arrived at the perfect moment. Come watch.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Obviously, this is not the plan. And Lucilla kind of panics and she commands Mirebella to not be the Gola. Don't do that. Don't do the thing you prepped him for. But it's already too late. I found this interesting because it's some insight into Honored Matre culture. Quote, fair game. Great. Honored Matre. And I marked him first. He is already partly subdued. End quote. Interesting there, because I think that shows us that there's almost this, like, hunter's honor among the honored Matres. Like, look, I caught the deer first. I get to skin it. That's my meat.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

You know, and the fact that Mirbella clearly thinks of Lucilla as a superior means that even it's not insubordination to do that. Right. Like, you can even say no to a superior and say, no, this is my kill. This is my hunt. I found this person first, and I get to put them first. I found that quite interesting.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's also possible that, like, there's something to the betting, like, subjugation process that requires, like, you do the first step, and then once that first step is done with that person, it's very hard for someone else to do it. So it's also possible that it's, like, similar to if Lucilla or if Odrade. Oh, Draid has effectively disregarded Taraza's commands a couple of times because in the moment, there was something that needed to be done. And it seems like whatever Rube Goldberg machine has been set off in Duncan sexuality. Mirbella's already started that process. And so true. For sure there is that.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

They do have kind of a Hunter's, like, a. They feel very primal in that way. For sure.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mirbella says, too bad. I'm gonna go sleep with this ghola. But there's a window. Feel free to watch and enjoy the show. And I think we're about to get a sex scene.

[Leo]

Indeed we are. In fact, it is that time in the HBO episode where we're going to get some gratuitous sexual activity.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And buckle up, folks. This is one of those chapters that will stick with you whether or not you wanted to. And this chapter is a doozy. We're joining Duncan disoriented after he and Torso were caught by the forces of the under matre. Really sad. Look, I liked Torm, so we didn't really get to know him, but the blood shooting out of his eyes and ears and mouth, and I'm like, oh, that sucks. Oh, all right. Rip. He's a real one.

[Abu]

Yeah. He was weirdly into teeth, but outside of that, Tor was a cool guy.

[Leo]

I mean, I'd nibble a branch for Tor just. Just to help him out, you know? Now Duncan's mind is all over the place. He's disoriented, and he's flickering through some, like, pre Gola memories, some memories of the no globe, as well as some other, like, just flickers here and there as he's struggling to remember what led up to that capture. He's kind of sorting his memories.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, ultimately, we learned that, yes, Tormcell was likely working on the same outdated information that Bruce Molly was working on. And they literally entered the room and were immediately stunned and captured. Torms it was killed. And this safe house is not so safe, as it turns out. Waking to the present, Duncan realizes he's naked and Mirbela's there just working him over, just humming and kissing and doing all sorts of stuff. And he glimpses through the window, he sees Lucilla and Bruce Molly both feverishly taking notes or whatever. No, probably not. But we're seeing the sexual prowess that Waf has talked about throughout this book. And his consciousness, as this stuff is happening, tumbles away down a branch of awakening memories. Fucking guy is awakening again. This is the second time in this book. And this time he is obtaining the memories of the death moments of every Duncan Idaho ghola, which is notable because he is taken from the body of the first Duncan. This is not one of these serial dunk like Golas who's been, you know, they harvest the body every time he dies and they make a new one. This is a ghola from the first Duncan, presumably no access, no reasonable access to the many Duncan Idaho's that Leto too had in his service. And yet here he has these memories of being crushed by the worm. It's wild. It's really, really crazy. Now, at the same time, the Tleilaxu's hidden programming basically boots up and he begins to flip the script on Murbella. He basically begins to do what she's doing to her, and he very quickly overwhelms this young adern batre. And truly, I mean, listen, folks, if you're going to come to heretics of Dune to like, set your own expectations for yourself in the bedroom, this is not the chapter. This is. Don't, don't do it.

[Abu]

Watch porn instead.

[Leo]

Just, just watch porn instead. It's so much more realistic than this because here's the quote. Quote. The ecstasy engulfed her entire sensorium. She saw a spreading blaze of whiteness against her eyelids. Every muscle quivered with an ecstasy she had not imagined possible for herself.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Again the waves spread outward again and again. She lost count of the repetitions. End quote.

[Abu]

Folks, do not let your partner read this book.

[Leo]

No. They're going to be like, I'm going to leave you for this fictional character who's actually kind of shitty in a couple of books. Truly, truly insane.

[Abu]

Um, but, but setting the bar high. Duncan, listen.

[Leo]

That's. Duncan, have you seen this guy fucking climb a rock wall? It's incredible. So that happens. And Mirbella is fully exhausted. She like, can barely stand girl. Same, you know, for real.

[Abu]

Sounds like it.

[Leo]

And Duncan realizes in this pre programmed set of actions that the tlay lacks who built into him. He's like, oh, this should be Lucilla. And now it's time for me to kill her. Wait, this is not Lucilla. This is Mer. Bella. Oh, interesting. And he's sort of realizing the programming as well in the moment. And he goes, never mind. I'm not going to kill her. Mirbella attempts to kill him and fails, like, ludicrously. She's slow and sleepy. The pillow talk has really disarmed her. I think she's not really in the headspace. But she does unlock the door for presumably this honored Matre, this senior honored Matre, to come in and kill the ghola they were worried about. Quote, all of the honored Matre had been warned there was a ghola armed with forbidden knowledge by the Tleil Waxu. That ghola must be killed. End quote. She tries, she fails. And much to her chagrin, Lucilla's not an automatre. She's just a really good actor. Yeah. Lucilla knocks out Mirbella, knocks her unconscious, and is like, cool. Glad there's a no ship on its way. We're fucking going to Arrakis. Finally, we're getting the plan back on its rails.

[Abu]

Yeah. Okay, a couple of interesting things here, please. First, I want to shout out Madison in the chat. Madison writes, my usual complaint about sex scenes is that they are generally uninteresting and typically don't move the story in a significant way. But this time, yeah, it is grossly interesting and you can't skip it because it reveals so much. I agree.

[Leo]

So my hot take is people criticize this book for being horny and for like, I've even heard such literally disgusting takes as like, Frank Herbert, after Beverly past was horny. And like, that is why he wrote these books, these ways. I would argue, especially on a reread, this chapter has sex in it. Is this chapter sexy? Not even fucking a little bit. Are you kidding me?

[Abu]

I would disagree. I think this is written really well, like this. Could this holds up against like some of the better smut out there?

[Leo]

No. Absolutely not.

[Abu]

I disagree.

[Leo]

Negative 100 on that take, my guy. Yeah, I'll be interested to hear what people think. But I. What I would say is there is so much clinical language. It's like the muscles of her vagina, the like. And it's not. It's not about. It's not about the gaze. It's not about how things look. It's not the swell of her breasts bouncing. It's not. None of it is falling into that, like, cheap kind of porn. Again. I'm literally reading fucking fourth Wing right now, and it's my God. And it's like this. But there's a lot of, like, he's claiming, and it's. It's. It's very. Like, it's hyperbole, but it's written to be arousing. Yeah, I think it's clinical. I mean, I think that's how I would describe this sex scene. Because, again. And I think that's also why people mislabel it, because it is uncomfortable to read. Like, his erection was so hard it hurt. It's like, is that good? Is that, like. I think you just stop at. He was really hard and like, oh, yeah. And then you say, no. It's like, this is. It feels very objective. I don't know. It's the way he wrote it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I was realizing on this. Read through, the sex scenes in this book are very. They're almost gross and uncomfortable. I mean, for sure, they're gross and uncomfortable. Also because Duncan's a minor in this scene, and that's definitely been broadly criticized. Like, we totally forget. Even though he has old memories, this is still the body of effectively, a child. The other side of it is, like, the tone is not what it would be, I think, if Frank's goal. Like, when Frank writes about Lucilla's sensual curves underneath her robes, and when he writes about, like, the women and talking about them and how they embody that desire. Right. When he talks. When he wrote about Jessica, I got a lot more of like, oh, okay. Wow, this is a little spicy. Like, we're. We're seeing the desire that Jessica elicits in people by being this kind of sensuous person. These chapters feel very clinical to me. So that's my hot take. I think people have mislabeled it. I think people. I think some people are uncomfortable because it's talking about sex. And then it is not sexy and fun enough as, like, pornography or smut to be, like, excused for that reason. So then people just say, this is too horny. I don't like it, but I don't think it's too horny. I think it's too clinical. For people who are not used to reading about sex in a clinical way. We mostly read about sex either in textbooks or in, like, smut. And that's a whole different tone. That's my. That's my that's my take.

[Abu]

Yep. And that totally makes sense. I mean, again, for Frank, as Eli is saying in the chat, a lot of this is about not the sex, you know, not the act itself or even anything romantic. It's about power. It's about control. It's about warfare. It's about manipulation. It's about all of the other things that sex is a tool for. It is a means to an end, and a very direct and aggressive means to an end for the Honored Matre. And we're seeing that in action here. And we're seeing Duncan flip that on its head for the Honored Matre and completely disorient Murbella. It throws a monkey wrench into this war. You know, Duncan has come up with the shield that blocks the sword of the Honored Matre, and suddenly everyone's like, fuck, what do we do now? I don't think this is a horny book. I agree with you that that is a mislabeling of heretics and chapter house. I do think this book is preoccupied and in my opinion, a little too preoccupied with sex as a means of manipulation and control and taking it to the nth degree of a superpower that completely addles the male mind and subjugates them. Sure, that, to me, starts pushing the line of believability, but again, it's a sci fi story. Frank's allowed to take it and push it as far as he wants to, to try and get a point across, but I don't think the point he's trying to get across is, I want to turn you on, dear reader. Yeah, I think he's still exploring the ideas, not the act of eroticism itself.

[Leo]

Right. And what I would ask is, like, why is it taking it too far? Like, if he's going to treat anything like mentata powers or the Bene Gesserit's, you know, Prana Bendu abilities or anything like, why? Why is it too far to use sex in this way, do you think?

[Abu]

I think it's part of his. Part of it is definitely my own discomfort with chapters like these. For sure. It is weird to remember that Duncan is 15 years old in this. We don't know Marbella's exact age, but 15 is too young.

[Leo]

Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

Part of it definitely gives, like, you know, sa vibes. Like, it gives, like, much of this is not consensual. Duncan did not consent to any of this happening in this chapter, and only his special abilities and him going Super Saiyan meant that he survived everyone else that Honored Madre subjugated didn't. And I think it's a. I just think it's an indelicate handling of that. It's an indelicate handling of sex as a weapon. And it fails to explore the victim's point of view. And it's only, you know, it's almost too detached and clinical from the act itself. And Frank, sort of in classic Frank fashion, focuses on the philosophy, the history, the politics of sex.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And fails to address or even remotely touch upon the actual act itself and what that might be like for someone who isn't Duncan, for someone who's just a Gamu native who becomes an honored Matres slave. So that's one of my main criticisms of Heretics and Chapter House, is that it's not that sex is a bad thing to explore as a weapon. I just don't think it is explored as delicately and as thoroughly as it should have been. Frank had, like, one or two things to say with it and kind of just said those things. So that's sort of the thrust of my critique. But again, as we're reading, my appreciation for these books is certainly growing because we are having these conversations and this back and forth and questioning our own initial reactions to things and asking, why did I feel this way? You know, I think this type of book absolutely requires you to, like, examine your own feelings as you read as well. You got a journal about reading Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

Yeah. And it's the same thing with some of what Frank attempted with the first few books, where if people come away from the book and they go, I feel really gross about that chapter because it was a minor and it was forced, and it was. All these things are terrible. And also, just even that his awakening was supposed to be this, like, seduction in the first place. And, you know, the Bene Gesserit go, it's too early. I know it's too early, but we're gonna do it anyway. And it's like, that doesn't excuse this. I think if people come away from this book and that is the thing that they're focused on and really affected by. I think Frank would also acknowledge that he failed, because that was not. I don't think that's his intention. It's not some blaring commentary on consent and whatever. Like, that's not even part of the equation when you're reading this chapter. No part of it talks about that. And people very rightly understand this chapter with that lens. But it's true that you're saying what you're saying, that this chapter Focuses on control and power. And it's a chess game where the pieces are sexual maneuvers. And again, it could be written in a way that is very male gazy. Considering Frank is an older guy, it could have been written away. That's very voyeuristic and very celebratory of, like, the female body. And what is Merbella's body doing in these, like, sexy, sexy ways? Instead, he talks about her, like, Areola's darkening, and it's like, again, this feels like a. Like a textbook. Again, it's very strange.

[Abu]

Yeah. And for what it's worth, yes, like, again, for me, that stretches believability. Like, I'm just like, okay, mentats I can believe. Even face dancers I can believe. But I do agree with folks that are like, okay, these, like, hot babes, leotards from outer space come and sex, mind control people. Begins to stretch my own level of believability in this universe as well. So that's certainly a critique I agree with too. But I think distilling it down to just that, to your point, is a mistake, right? That is not what this book is about. To distill it down to that and handwave away a whole book and all the ideas in this book just because of that. That, I think, is not the right way to approach heretics.

[Leo]

Yeah. I have less of the believability issue, personally, because, again, we're in a universe where a reverend Mother can drink a deadly poison and then be totally fine afterwards with no antidote. That is, by our modern understanding of how the human body works, just impossible. And we have to acknowledge that Prana Bendu and all these different things have enabled things that we can't even fathom right now. And then you say, could that extend into sexuality? And I'm like, oh, I can think of a few ways Prana Bendu would help out in the bedroom. So even just that as the tee up.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

For the grand slam. That is. Hey, this is possible in this universe. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But you're told. I mean, a thousand percent. You're right. Part of the issue in all of this is when you start talking about it and you go, duncan made a woman come from climbing a rock wall, and now he's giving her uncountable full body sensory. It's like when you talk about loses the very intentional word choice that Frank used, which I think makes it what it is. And anyway, fascinating conversation. I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it, because I do think that if you look up, what are people's problems with heretics, One of the biggest complaints is, like, that book, so horny, lol, so focused on sex, obsessed with sex, blah, blah, blah. But I do think it's an important conversation to have because we are also talking about this within the context of American culture where talking about sex is totally forbidden, unless it's hardcore pornography, at which point it's like, okay, you can have it as a treat. So anyway, glad we had a chance to talk about it. Yeah, we do have. We do have a takeaway, which is not that.

[Abu]

That wasn't the takeaway.

[Leo]

Was not the takeaway, as it turns out. Oops. Oops. All takeaways. We are going to get to our takeaway in just a minute. Before we get there, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're going to talk about Duncan's memories. Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple. The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app ON Apple Watch iPhone XS are later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes.

[Abu]

Only and not for medical use.

[Leo]

Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music, great artist, BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live?

[Abu]

With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert.

[Leo]

They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave.

[Abu]

Sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip.

[Leo]

Book it with Priceline. Go to your happy price, Priceline.

[Abu]

All right, welcome back, folks. Let's dive into today's takeaway. For today's takeaway, we want to take a beat to really sit with Duncan's memories because that happens really, really fast. And of course, it's all sort of interwoven with the actual sex taking place with Mirbella, right? So we want to examine these memories sort of line by line because there's a lot of juicy tidbits in here that are worth visiting and revisiting. Some of this is new stuff that we're learning about Duncan Idaho. Some of it is old things that we're revisiting again through Duncan's memories as he's unlocking them, too. So for the takeaway Today we want to dive a bit deeper here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And let's just go through the chapter sort of chronologically as the memories come to Duncan, let's talk about them.

[Leo]

Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

The first one that hits him is about a sporting event.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, he remembered sitting at the edge of a wide lawn. There was some kind of bowling game in progress. Eccentric balls that bounced and darted with no apparent design. The players were young men in a common costume of Kitty Prime. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Did they kick the ball with their feet? Did they carry it over lines in the lawn? It was a really, really wide lawn. And there were tees and dolphins on the field. I think there were dolphins flopping on the field and. Very strange memory, Duncan.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So strange.

[Abu]

Yeah, they wore all this padding.

[Leo]

They had, like, kind of battle helmets, but they were not quite.

[Abu]

Kendrick played the halftime show. It was crazy.

[Leo]

It's wild that Frank wrote that in the 80s.

[Abu]

This is not gonna make sense to people listening to this three months from now, but we are recording this on Super Bowl Sunday.

[Leo]

There we go. Yeah, that's. That's the joke.

[Abu]

Okay, so this memory is interesting because as Duncan is, like, remembering this sporting event, he's also recalling that he was there with a young female companion of his. Natural classic on brand, of course.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it seems like he's quite young at this because he's cracking jokes to this female companion. Right? He's kind of like, look at those old guys playing this old man game, huh? You wouldn't catch me playing this old man game. And that. It's cute. You know, it. It feels like young Duncan on a date. That's kind of my read on it. On a date with a young, young girl. Here's the kicker, folks, though. Careful who you go to dates with, I guess. Turns out this female companion is the one who betrays him to the Harkonnens.

[Leo]

Damn it.

[Abu]

Because we know Duncan was saved. Yeah, by Duke Leto from Harkonnen slavery. That's why he's so loyal to House Atreides. And it appears this is the first five books in. This is the first time ever were given into a clue as to what might have happened or who was responsible for his captivity, how he might have ended up there, betrayed by a potential lover.

[Leo]

Can't trust anyone, man. You go on one date, you go to watch some old men playing a game. Very sad, sad times. I also do love. I just love any glimpse into normalcy in the Dune universe. The idea of Giddy prime, people, like, gathering for, like, a Sunday Sports league. Like, just like, yeah, this is the rec league in. In Gidi Prime. Like that's kind of fun. Now, Duncan next has a more recent memory of being in the no Globes library. This is with Tag and Lucilla studying the layout of Yasai as he explains how the Barony used to be. So Yasai, the capital city of Giedi prime and Gamu, used to be the Barony where Baron Harkonnen lived. And this giant cube, this giant brutalist cube, is where Baron called home. Barony was built to a particular population design criterion. Maximum stuffing with minimum expenditure of materials. The flat top was the only human oriented space in the damned thing. He remembered telling that to Tag and Lucilla both. End quote. So naturally, the design of the city with this like low building slums with this giant cube in the middle is blatantly exposing the hierarchy, the social hierarchy that the Baron was enforcing on Giddy Prime. And this is the oppression really that they were using to keep the populace under control. And again, this is just so juxtaposed against Duke Leto and the way that he leads his people and he constructs his planetary governance. This is. This is rough. And on the top, yeah, on the top of the cube there are parks, there are penthouses, thopter pads, you sipping my ties on the top of the.

[Abu]

Cube, parties up top. And you're not invited.

[Leo]

Oh, you are not invited. You are a dirty sewer person with big arms and no nose. So yeah, there's. It's pretty. It's very heavy handed, but it's fascinating and it definitely seems like something that the Harkonnen House would have done and especially tough luck for the suckers living down under, right, who are trapped in their lives of just. Maybe they are sewer workers like I was joking about. Or maybe they just have these like shit jobs and the only way to get up in life is to. It's like base servitude. There's a line there about base servitude. You have to just completely debase yourself and be totally. And even then you're like, now you're carrying the cocktails to the rich elites, but you're not one of them, right? So it's like everything is so locked in place. And here's a bit of the propaganda, the sort of like brainwashing that kept people in their places. Quote, the outside, outside the city was a dangerous place. The city's managers made it appear even more dangerous than it actually was. Besides, few in there knew anything about a better life outside capital. O. The only better life they knew about was on top. And the only way up there was through an absolutely abasing servility. End quote. Now, I personally can't help, like, yeah, you say you can't really find happiness anywhere else. The only way you can find happiness is top of the cube. Now people are focused on that rat race. They're focused on that, like, corporate ladder, even if everything is rigged against them. And I can't help but think about societies, like, I mean, lest I get too political in this podcast about a political book.

[Abu]

How dare you?

[Leo]

I know, I know. I'm sorry.

[Abu]

Political police. The political police is here. Hands up.

[Leo]

Yeah, we're going to get our comments again, people. They're talking about politics again. The point is, here in the US we are definitely sold this, like, very particular, very capitalist, eccentric method for success. And if you fail, if you're homeless, if you're poor, it is because you didn't work hard enough. And that's this sort of, like, bootstrapped myth that I think a lot of that exists in, like, heavily capitalistic societies versus other places in the world are like, no. If you are so failed by the institutions that you end up homeless, society has failed you. And that is like a different way that some societies live. And it works fine. And yet we've kind of been told that that's just not the way things. The way things work. So I thought that this was, again, tremendously relevant to today's conversations about today's societies, and really poignant, really worth thinking about, worth talking about for sure.

[Abu]

And also the sort of, like, 1984 Brave New World, like, double think that takes place clearly on Giddy Prime. Right. It's more dangerous out there than it is in here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

War, famine, immigrants.

[Leo]

Oh, no.

[Abu]

They're all out there.

[Leo]

Oh, no.

[Abu]

Okay, so you keep working the coal mines in here and don't complain about it. I really liked that as well. Like, yes, the physical features are clearly of the way the city is built. The architecture clearly built to keep the subjugated. Subjugated, yeah. But also. And to create, like, a clear delineation between them. Right. It is difficult to get up top in a physical sense, but also in a socioeconomic sense. The folks down under are oppressed even within the context of their lives and what they're told. It's very like North Korea. Right. Like this. This is the best place for you to live. Right here underneath the heel of my boot.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Because if you leave that, there's immigrants.

[Leo]

Oh, no. Oh, no. With free health care.

[Abu]

I liked that. And I really like that you brought up this point. There's like many layers of oppression.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Here in Barony and on Giddy prime, the physical, the economic, the social, the mental and emotional, all those layers are meant to keep the people down below exactly where they are their whole lives.

[Leo]

Anecdotally, there's a. There's a whole thing about, like you teach elephants, they can't pull their ropes. Like the. You. You teach them that. You tie them to a stake.

[Abu]

Yes. And they like, really sad.

[Leo]

You teach them as babies that they aren't strong enough so that they just remember I'm not strong enough to do it. Even when they are big and strong enough, it's like you. You take from them the ability to learn a better way and then that's. That's how you have them in servility your whole. Their whole lives.

[Abu]

Yeah. One of the best ways to keep a population oppressed is to not let them dream of a better life.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Not let them believe a better life is possible. That this is the best what they have right now.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Well, moving on from the architecture of Giddy prime, as interesting as it is, there are more memories to get through following this, Duncan has sort of a quick series of memories. They come back to back to back to back. He has flashes, for example, of hearing Paul's voice, Paul speaking to him. And then he sees himself standing in a mirror. But it's different versions of himself. He's young, he's old, he's different, he's gruff, he's whatever. All he recognizes is his eyes. You know, those are the things that stay constant. But his face continues to change through all these memory flashes. He then also recalls this brief interaction with Duke Leto. I old. The old Duke himself. So let's break these down because I think there's an interesting bit about arrogance here that maybe is quite revealing. Starting with Paul's memory, all we hear is one quick line from Paul essentially saying the future is inevitable. Something that I'm sure Duncan had heard the real Paul say to him. And this leads to a shockingly uncharacteristic thought from our current Duncan going through this memory in this book. Quote, how odd it was. Duncan thought there was an arrogance in the prescient, like the arrogance of the Mentat seated in his most brittle logic. I never before thought of Paul as arrogant. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Abu]

That made me sit back in my seat a little. I was like, whoa, yeah. Duncan Idaho, shit talking Paul Atreides.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Fascinating. That to me is really interesting because this shows us that over the course of many thousands of years, through the many like unhinged multiple lifetimes Duncan has experienced, and that this ghola is awakening to in this moment, they have changed him quite dramatically. This is not Duncan Idaho that we met in Dune by Frank Herbert. Right. This is not even the Duncan Idaho hate we knew in Messiah. This is someone who has evolved and changed quite a bit. And someone who went from being deathly loyal to the Atreides to now thinking that was kind of arrogant of him to say that.

[Leo]

Yeah, or like that.

[Abu]

That kind of reeks of arrogance, you know. How is he so sure about that? Questioning the Atreides? Imagine Duncan Idaho questioning an Atreides. We saw the first inklings of that in God Emperor of Dune as the repeated Duncans continued to push back against the God Emperor. But you know, he's like a fucking worm creature. And none of those Duncan's, at least from what we're told, ever necessarily push back on Paul. And Leto too, even would use the voice of Paul to pacify his Duncan Golas. And yet here we have Duncan kind of pushing back against a memory of Paul. I found that interesting.

[Leo]

I also do like that he's kind of bundling it all together. I mean, I think throughout these books I'm realizing that like Mentat training in Prescience abilities do seem to kind of go hand in hand. And where we have now Teg Mentat Bashar, who's exhibiting some things that sound very much like prescience, we had Paul who was trained as a mentat. The idea that we're kind of getting this again in the same comparison, you're saying, oh, like, like Mentats, the prescient were so arrogant. But it also does speak a little to Duncan's shortcomings where he sees Mentats as being arrogant in their brittle logic. But Mentats were like undeniably very good at what they were doing. And similarly, why does Paul think the future is inevitable? And why is he so sure of what's going to happen? Dude's fucking literally prescient Duncan. It's like, don't call that arrogance. It's like I can just see over the hill, man. I'm not even, I'm not tooting my own horn here. I can just look at what's coming next. And I think that's, it's interesting. It's like he's, it's. You're right, he's breaking a little bit from Paul, but he's doing so in a very Duncan way. Yeah, he's not going. Paul was ultimately not as powerful as I thought he was. He was more of a tragic figure who was, you know, victim to his. He's not saying what we know as readers. He is coming to his own conclusions within the limited data set that he has. It's very interesting.

[Abu]

That's right. Yeah. That's a great observation. Now, I do want to contrast this with the memory that happens shortly after, because then Duncan remembers the words of Duke Leto.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Uttered in the dining room on Caladan. So we're talking like pre Dune, book one. Quote, we will eat now. The Duke said it was a royal command, saved from arrogance by a faint grin that said somebody had to say it.

[Leo]

God.

[Abu]

End quote.

[Leo]

God, even that memory's hot. He's so sexy. Damn it.

[Abu]

Can you imagine Oscar Isaac doing that? Oh, I like.

[Leo]

Faint grin. Just Oscar Isaac faintly grinning at me. Oh, save.

[Abu]

Yeah, I love that. I mean, that. That one line says so much about Duke Leto as well, right? His sort of, like, casualness with power, his almost like, discomfort with his own role. Right. Like, I guess I'm the Duke. Nobody eats until I say so. So. Okay, everybody eat now.

[Leo]

Yeah, everyone eats.

[Abu]

It's really fascinating, you know, it shows us. And again, remember, this is Duncan's memories. So we are looking at these memories through Duncan's lens. And it's very revealing to us that he thought of the old Duke in this way, how much respect and awe he had for the old duke, who, if you'll recall, looks exactly like Miles Tay, by the way.

[Leo]

By the way. Yeah.

[Abu]

I also found it interesting that these two memories happened right next to each other, practically, and that both of them use the word arrogance that stuck out to me because I think, you know, as I stated earlier, this is a new Duncan, an evolved Duncan. And perhaps we're seeing Duncan begin to question and change his own core belief system rather than, say, be loyal to the people and institutions. Right. To anyone named Atreides, to House Atreides, perhaps we're seeing that this evolved Duncan is someone who gives his loyalty to ideals or to actions. You know, the way. Not exactly what the old Duke said at that dinner table, but the way he said it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You know, that the. The actions he took, not necessarily what he said, which clearly show the ideals that the old Duke held. You know, this sort of like, it is, you know, this casual approach to power rather. Rather than this, like, power hungry approach he would have been used to from being enslaved by the Arcanens. I don't know if that's exactly the intention with these lines. That's sort of my half tinfoil hat theory. Read on it.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

But it just stuck to me as I was going through these line by line for today's script, that the word arrogance would come up so close to each other about two different but related characters in Duncan's life in this way. And I think it just shows us that this is a new Duncan who's breaking free from his old beliefs.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's a lot of those little hints throughout this first book. Right. Like, this first chunk of the book is like, this is not the Duncan we're used to. This is not the Gola we're used to. He's capable of more than anybody in universe is expecting all the time. I am curious, which half of the tinfoil hat are you wearing? The left side, the right side, the.

[Abu]

Top half, but not the bottom half.

[Leo]

No. Yeah. Cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. Sit with that for a little bit.

[Leo]

Nice. Well, let's talk about this intense sexual encounter with Mirbella, because. So this is where Duncan is flooded with memories of his other ghola lives. And this is truly the most bombshell, again, hugest. Like, I think there are only a handful of things that Frank puts in this universe that is truly unexplainable by any stretch of the. And this is like, fully. How does he come to have these? Who's to say? But in between. And also, most of them are death by wormtackle, as it turns out. There was kind of a pattern there. But in between those deaths, there are these beautiful memories of life and love, which was really touching. Quote, the sweetness of a newborn daughter held in his arms, the musky odors of a passionate mate, the cascade of flavors from a fine Danaan wine, the panting exertions of the practice floor. End quote. So he's remembering the so many lives led so many times he, as Duncan Idaho, trained himself to excellence. So many partners he's had. So many. Again, we think about the Duncan from God, emperor of Dune, who goes to the village and sees his children and the wife of the last Duncan or one of the last Duncans. And this Duncan now has both memories, both like sides of that memory of the whole long life that he led with that woman, with that fish speaker, retiring to that little town, having the kids, raising the kids passing away like it is crazy. But that is where. That's where he's at. And that's what he's getting. In this moment, we also get confirmation in a true. I highlighted this entire page.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Also, I do this thing where I'll like highlight a paragraph if I think it's worth talking about. And on this page I ended up highlighting like nine back to back paragraphs. And I was like, I think I'm just highlighting the chapter at this point. Because here's a quote. This is of the axolotl tanks, confirming Odrade's theory via Duncan's memories. Quote. He remembered emerging time after time, bright lights and padded medical hands. The hands rotated him and in the unfocused blurs of the newborn, he saw a great mound of female flesh, monstrous in her almost immobile grossness. A maze of dark tubes linked her body to giant metal containers. End quote.

[Abu]

What an image.

[Leo]

Fucking awful. And yeah, very visceral writing there. Very effective writing from Frank. Definitely. We get the horror that Odrade and Taraza were kind of sharing in that moment of like, what would that even look like?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And we also see for all of the shit that the play likes to do, we see maybe why WAF might be a little bit like, oh, I really don't want to talk about those. The tanks. The tanks. You know, I was thinking of throwing some balls around if you want to like, play a game or something. Dodging the question. No, no, me no kill them with the darts.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Like, yeah, yeah, for sure. I would also dodge that topic all the time.

[Abu]

Yeah. The implications of this are crazy too, because the fact that o' Draid said no one has ever seen the Tleilaxu female before.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I just have so many questions. It can't be every female, right? Society can't run if every female is just like an axolotl birthing machine. But no one's ever seen a Tleilaxi female before.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And maybe, maybe it is such a male or genderless dominated society, like they only just kind of breed enough females to replace tanks, you know, just to like maintain the population and no more like, maybe they'd have no other use for females in their society. You know, these are all hypothetical questions, but it's certainly all disgusting. That's sort of the through line.

[Leo]

No kidding.

[Abu]

It's brutal.

[Leo]

It is. And it's definitely one of those things that, like, man, you meet. You meet hate in the second book and you're like, gola. What Cool. You know, you met Bjaz and he's like, tank brother, you know, fist bump. And you're like, okay, cool, tanks. I guess. And then here we are in book five, learning that this whole time, probably, we don't know for sure. Maybe the Technology's evolved over the years and everything, but this whole time it seems like this has been happening and it's just. It's just disgusting. Thousands and thousands of years.

[Abu]

Yeah. The depravity is. It's kind of mind boggling. And it makes me think of Odrade's comment from earlier where she was like, if you pretend to be stupid long enough, you just are.

[Leo]

Long pretense.

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm obviously like, paraphrasing badly, but I think that also goes for, like, if you pretend to be depraved enough and disgusting long enough, you become depraved and disgusting, you know?

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

Okay, let's wrap up today's takeaway. A lot of ideas there. A lot of interesting memories. Some peeks into Duncan's past. A wild awakening. Right. Like, I think it's worth acknowledging once again that these memories are not entirely this Duncan's. They are every Duncan's memories.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

Of the last 3,000 plus years.

[Leo]

Those golas who were killed and never retrieved. Those memories are there within him.

[Abu]

Click, click, click. All of that somehow unlocking within him. And Duncan has now achieved something akin to the quote unquote immortality that the Tleilaxu masters have. Right. They kill their old body, reharvest it, be born again, and continue living and just kind of carry that onwards. But that's linear, right? Like, that's them doing that so that their memories, like, continue linearly. I loved the example you gave earlier of Duncan remembers marrying that woman in the village and having children and also not marrying that woman and seeing that woman at the village. He remembers both sides of that memory in relation to that family he may or may not have had. That's not a linear thing. You know, Waff doesn't have two opposite memories like that. Yeah, it's Duncan who has not even just two. He probably has like dozens of like, opposing memories. Yeah, that's wild. The implications of that are crazy and raises so many questions. I'm also left wondering, like, what triggered this? Right. Because we know Golas awaken their own personal memories, the one memory that their lifetime has through, you know, what Miles Tagg did to this Duncan earlier, or the sort of traumatic stress imposed upon them that, like, happened with hate back in Dun Nsaya?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So like, is this an unintended side effect of his Tleilaxu programming when that program kicked in, that it kick up something else in him? Or is this another sort of like psychological trauma stress response in response to the Honored Matres, like sexual Abilities, like, are their abilities so intense, so much more intense than anything any ghola has ever experienced before, that it's unlocking a whole new type of ghola power that no one has ever been able to unlock before.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we can really only theorize, but it makes me wonder why, in this moment, in particular, this is happening to Duncan, and why it didn't happen to any previous Duncan over 3,000 years.

[Leo]

We do know that Waf, one of the Tleilaxu servants, one of the Face Dancers, demonstrated the abilities on Waf, and Waf had them kill themselves because Waf, like, almost succumbed to the seduction. Right. But we also know then that Waf went through basically this experience and didn't awaken other memories. Like, he didn't have anything else. So I do think there's something specific about Duncan, and we don't know quite what that is. We just have. All we can do is speculate. But this is also the first time, to be clear, the first time that a Duncan is fully aware of how long Duncan's been in the universe, because even every ghola that was brought to Leto was still like, oh, I'm the first. And then. And then he finds out that he's a chain of Duncans, and he goes, how many? And no one answers the question, because no one really knows, and no one keeps track. Like, this is the first time that someone other than Leto knew. Knows everything Duncan's been through as a. As an identity. And, like, what does that do to the human perspective?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

When you have that much humanity? And is it, like, other memories? Is this opening him up to the possibility of some sort of abomination? But I think the difference here is that he is still just him in this moment, and he has all of this stuff, but none of it's, like, you know, other memories, Personas that exist in your. And they come forward and they talk to you, and they attempt to subvert and they convince you, and they, you know, this is just Duncan dealing with this, like, vast store of knowledge unlike anything anyone else has ever had. Debatably more than some Bene Gesserit with their full other memories intact. This is crazy. And I don't think we're only now seeing this, and we're going to have to keep reading to find out kind of what happens with this. But it's crazy. It's really, really crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's a huge, huge development. Very cool stuff. Duncan motherfucking Idaho. Duncan motherfucking Idaho. Motherfucking Idaho. All the way down it just. It's a Russian doll of Duncan motherfucking Idaho.

[Leo]

All the way down. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, well, that's our takeaway for today, an exploration of Duncan here. Let's take another quick breather, folks. We're almost to the finish line of today's episode, but we have a platter of freshly baked morsels for you. So stick around. You're going to want to take a bite of these. We'll see you in a minute.

[Leo]

Indeed we will. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

[Abu]

From streaming to shopping, prime helps you.

[Leo]

Get more out of your passions.

[Abu]

So whether you're a fan of true.

[Leo]

Crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free.

[Abu]

Delivery, prime makes it easy to get.

[Leo]

More out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more. Welcome back everybody. Hope you're in the mood for a couple of morsels. We got them for you and they're nice and big, nice and juicy. The first morsel I'm going to share today is the many moons of Gamu. And in today's reading, Lucilla provides us some. She basically takes note, right, of the many moons in the night sky above Gamu and hits us with this beautiful bit of background world building. Because that's no moon. To quote another famous sci fi franchise. That's no moon. That's a death Star. No, it's a no ship battle fortress thing. Fortress. No ships. Some of them had been placed by tag, but she glimpsed lines of new ones sharing the guardian role. They appeared to be about four times the size of the brightest stars and they often traveled together, which made their reflected light useful but erratic because they moved fast up across the sky and below the horizon. In only a few hours, she glimpsed a string of six such moons through a break in the clouds. End quote. Really fascinating stuff. Ultimately, we get a sense of the scale of the planetary defense that Tegs put into position, but also the idea of these hulking, invisible to all like forms of radiation and sonar and radio and prescience and all these things, these massive fortress ships just floating in space. Really fascinating, really beautiful, interesting background world building. But I also want to point out, you know, I was in France and we, we saw starlink satellites being passing. Have you seen this before? No, it's, it's hard to see in New York because we don't get a lot of light. But we were out in the countryside in central France and it was just imagine like a, like a Satellite crossing the sky right where it's just like a single dot that's going. But it was like 14 oh wow. All in a perfect line going across the sky. And I had like a primal animalistic fear. I was like, oh my God, are we being attacked by something? And then I had to google it and it was like, oh, that's just what it looks like when a starlink array goes by. And I was like, what the actual. That's crazy. So in 2025 when we have something like that, these sort of like fast moving straight line of man made orbiting objects. This sounds familiar to me. I'm like, oh yeah, that's what I experienced in the, in central France last year. Yeah, but it's crazy. Frank wrote this book in the 80s. So I wanted to take a step back considering that at first I was like, when were the first satellites sent up? I want to take a step back. Let's just talk about satellites for a second. The first satellite sent into Earth's orbit was the Sputnik 1957, which is interesting. I'm like oh, okay, cool. So there were satellites in space when Frank was writing these books. And According to the UCS satellite database, as of May of 2023 there are 7560 satellites in orbiting Earth. Now today, a couple of years later, StarLink alone has 6,000.

[Abu]

Oh wow.

[Leo]

So I think that that number is quite a bit higher than it was back in 2023. Now in 2021 there was a Slovakian, Dr. Miroslav, I think this is Kochi as a, I think is how you pronounce it. Published a letter to the monthly notices of the Royal Astronomical Society journal warning of the issues caused by these growing numbers of orbiting planetary bodies that we keep putting out into space. And from the abstract highlights, quote, an approximately 10% increase over the brightness of the night sky determined by natural sources of light. End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

So they're talking about more light being reflected and refracted back to Earth because of all these extra bodies that are in space. Whether they are actually putting out light or they're just reflecting light from the sun. Very interesting. And the whole paper, the letter is very interesting. It talks about like migratory birds are kind of fucked up by having extra light in the sky. And there are things in nature that are kind of being messed with by us having all of this plus high altitude observatories who their entire purpose is to help us get off this planet and understand the cosmos better, are having trouble because there's more and more things that are adding to the light pollution of near Earth orbit. So, all in all, it was a very fascinating read. I kind of happily tumbled down that rabbit hole earlier. While Frank couldn't have known that we were going to end up here with these sorts of things actually happening in our night sky, I do think, considering his ecological interests, this would be something that Frank would write about or would have feelings about. So I thought it was interesting to talk about today. For those of you who are hoping that this connects back to Dune, here's my little olive branch. The next time you go outside into the night sky and you see a passing satellite, just imagine that that passing satellite is four times bigger than it is. And that is what it's like to be on gamu.

[Abu]

Wow. Now I really want to see, like, a starlink chain in the sky. I feel like it would be freaky. I feel like I would have the same reaction that you did.

[Leo]

I was, like, waiting for impacts across the horizon.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But it was. You can look up video of it. You can look up pictures and people time lapse it and stuff like that. It's very. It is very surreal because it looks like stars or shooting stars, but they're perfectly in a line and they're moving quite noticeably.

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about morsel number two. Dual bonds. So in today's reading, we get this ludicrously long paragraph detailing the Ixion dual bonds in the windows at Dara's blot in this penthouse quote, they were flat black slats 10 molecules wide and rotating in a transparent liquid medium set automatically. The best Ixion Dolbons admitted a predetermined level of light without much diminishing the view. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Get those into my apartment right now. That sounds great.

[Abu]

I know. Like that. That sounds like the best blinds ever. Thank you, Ixians. Ah, it's tough to break away from the Ixians, you know, they make such great.

[Leo]

They make such good shit. Sharper image on Planet Ix is fucking awesome.

[Abu]

So a quick search through all the books reveals that dolbonds is not a word we've come across before in the Dune saga. And this seems to be, yet again, another piece of technology that we can thank the Ixians for creating. Thank you, Ixians. Don't you be fucking with any hunter seekers that are automated to kill.

[Leo]

Don't do it. Biological hunting. Don't stop.

[Abu]

So, put simply and based on this description, Dolbans appear to be just some sort of advanced form of light filtering that are installed into the walls of Darus. Balat or into the windows of Darus Balat that allow sort of like the full color spectrum of light to pass through, but reduce harmful exposure that might actually damage the goods that are in the museum. Right. We don't want any of the precious objects of the God Emperor to wear down because of light pollution or UV rays or anything like that. Now, I too, fell down a bit of a research rabbit hole because I was fascinated by this. This is a real practice that museums do today, of course. Right. Museums are extremely cautious with how much and for how long objects are exposed to light.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Abu]

And I was curious what exactly the parameters, you know, are there, like, rules around this? And the answer turns out to be yes, there are very specific parameters around this. I ended up on the nonprofit website for the Conservation center for Art and Historic Artifacts, ccah, and they have a helpful guide on their site with recommendations on how to light precious artifacts in your museum. And I just want to rattle off a couple of, like, fun facts that I found interesting that stood out to me. In case there's any museum heads out there trying to kickstart a museum, here's what you got to know.

[Leo]

I'm going to take a break from trying to kickstart this museum and listen to my favorite Dune podcast. Oh, my God. Thank you.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

We are speaking to that one listener who's like, holy fuck, I'm in. Okay, some fun facts from Kaka Kaha, the Conservation center for Art and Historic Artifacts. UV light turns out, is more harmful than visible light. I guess that makes sense if I think about it logically. And so UV light should be filtered as much as possible down to zero to 10 microwatts. You know, like, get it down to zero if you can, but whatever, do what you can to get it as low as possible. The absolute maximum before it becomes harmful to the Artifact apparently is 75 microwatts. That's where UV light becomes detrimental. More sensitive objects should be lit around 50 to 100 lux. Lux is a measurement of light depending on the material that the artifact is made of. And there was this, like, really interesting, like, chart that showed, like, if you have an artifact that is made of paper, this is the lux level. This is how long it can blah, blah, blah. And so, for example, like, if you have a work of art that was made on paper, you want the light lux level that it sits under to be 50. And you want that piece of art rotating in and out of the exhibition. You don't want it sitting under that 50 lux light for an extended number of days, weeks, or months without rotating it out.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

So constant exposure is also bad. I found that interesting. There was other stuff, you know, whether if it's paint or acrylics or whatever, different measurements, different amounts of time that it can be out there. I also found it interesting that this nonprofit strongly recommends that every museum has a schedule for regularly monitoring the light that all of their pieces are under and also keeping basically, like, bookkeeping, like, keeping records of, like, this date, this much light, this date, this much light, so that you can properly measure and maintain very delicate artifacts that you don't want to lose because of damage via light. I found it super fascinating. So those. This was a much more extensive document, and I fell down a rabbit hole as well. But those are just three quick facts that kind of stood out to me and were interesting. And honestly, I really hope someone out there invents ICSI and doll bonds, because it sounds like, oh, hell yeah. Museum curators and museum workers are working their asses off so I can go look at the constitution and go, meh. And walk away.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. You said this is what, 300? Yeah, it's not that old. Do they have a cafe here? I'm thirsty. I don't like.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

What are we doing?

[Abu]

Oh, the souvenirs here suck. God damn it. And the poor is, like, updating the light bookkeeping.

[Leo]

We spent six minutes in 0.5. Yeah, that's. What an ungrateful man.

[Abu]

I'm certainly going to be a little more appreciative of the way the lights are set up at the next museum I go to after having learned this.

[Leo]

I'm gonna go the other direction. I'm just gonna bring a UV lamp with me. 360 degree protection in UV light. Oops. Can't see it.

[Abu]

Leonardo da Vinci's notes are like catching fire.

[Leo]

You're like, who could say what's causing this? Well, folks, that is our episode. Those are our morsels, our takeaway, our summaries. We have some homework for you, though. For the next episode, you are going to want to make sure you've read through chapter 45, the one that ends on the sentence quote. The rest of you, get your weapons and let's go. Holy.

[Abu]

I'm in.

[Leo]

I'm in. Let's do it. I don't know what we're doing.

[Abu]

The end of this book is like pedal to the metal. I can't wait.

[Leo]

Oh, I'm so excited.

[Abu]

We're in the home stretch now, folks.

[Leo]

We got two more episodes, right? And then we're done with the book. It's crazy.

[Abu]

All right, folks, that's our episode today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. Before we let you go, a couple of quick reminders. As always, the two best ways to support this show are to become a patron. That's also how you can tune in, live like our lovely folks in the chat watching, and to grab yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links will be in the show notes below, so check them out please.

[Leo]

Indeed. And we'd love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] Send us your thoughts, your questions, your cute pets. In particular, I'd love to hear if you think that the sex scenes in this book are like clinical, weird, not sexy? Or are you like, oh, hot dog, let me read it another four times during some private time with a locked door. I want to know. I'm curious, is this too clinical? I think that's an interesting thing and I'd be interested to hear people's takes. So email us gomjabbarpodcastmail.com that's where we're located. That's how emails work.

[Abu]

That's how emails work.

[Leo]

Meanwhile, John Curtis said tanks for the memories. Totally making light of the Axolotl tanks. And I'm here for it. That's so funny.

[Abu]

I will say the jokes in the chat have been distracting in the best way possible.

[Leo]

Absolutely.

[Abu]

I keep looking over and being like, don't laugh, don't laugh, don't laugh. Lately I was talking don't laugh. Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the larparty podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at laurenparty. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path. Sam.