Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 6)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 6) Summary

Release Date: January 24, 2025 | Hosts: Abu and Leo | Produced by: Lore Party Media

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Chapter Summaries

Chapter 16: The Dynamics Between Bashar Miles Teg and Taraza

• Supreme Bashar Miles Teg's Reflections ([05:05] Abu):

  • Teg reminisces about a pivotal conversation with Taraza, highlighting their deep and trusting relationship.
  • Notable Quote ([08:05] Abu):
    "We think their entire lives were devoted to trying to break out of the chains they themselves created."
    • Context: Taraza discusses how Paul and Leto, as Kwisatz Haderachs, sought to escape their own prescient limitations.

• Taraza's Insights on Heretics and Doubt ([07:33] Abu):

  • Taraza humorously addresses the concept of heretics within the Bene Gesserit, emphasizing the importance of doubt to prevent stagnation.
  • Notable Quote ([07:57] Abu):
    "We're supposed to follow a mother Superior's orders with absolute devotion. And we do, except when we disagree."
    • Insight: Highlights the Bene Gesserit's subtle resistance to rigid doctrines through controlled heresy.

• Teg's Realization and Growth ([12:20] Abu):

  • Teg recognizes that Taraza is unintentionally expanding his cognitive abilities by challenging his long-held beliefs.
  • Notable Quote ([12:06] Abu):
    "Terrazzo was demanding a fearful performance from him. The need for such a thing both challenged and terrified him. It could very well mean the end of the sisterhood."
    • Implication: Taraza’s teachings may lead to transformative changes within the Bene Gesserit order.

Chapter 17: Odrade's Leadership and Shiana's Potential

• Odrade's Command and Shiana's Contradictions ([13:37] Abu):

  • Odrade efficiently manages an assassination attempt on Shiana's life while addressing Shiana's entitled behavior.
  • Notable Quote ([15:15] Abu):
    "About hatred was as dangerous an emotion as love. The capacity for hatred was the capacity for its opposite."
    • Insight: Odrade views strong emotions like hatred as equally perilous as love, necessitating control.

• Architectural Surveillance and Institutional Corruption ([16:17] Abu):

  • Odrade discovers that Shiana's room is architecturally designed to facilitate eavesdropping, symbolizing the Bene Gesserit's pervasive surveillance.
  • Notable Quote ([17:24] Abu):
    "More subtle storytelling from Frank. Another condemnation of the priesthood."
    • Insight: Frank Herbert critiques the corrupt and secretive nature of religious institutions through architectural details.

Chapter 18: Duncan's Skills and Lucilla's Struggles

• Duncan's Combat Prowess ([23:29] Abu):

  • Lucilla observes Duncan's exceptional command over his body and mind, pondering his potential to rival Teg.
  • Notable Quote ([23:57] Abu):
    "He could definitely get out there by then. And if shit got hairy, whatever, Lucilla would die."
    • Insight: Teg's tactical decisions prioritize Duncan's safety, showcasing his strategic brilliance.

• Lucilla's Ethical Dilemma ([24:34] Abu):

  • Lucilla grapples with the imperative to sexually imprint Duncan against her moral reservations.
  • Notable Quote ([25:28] Abu):
    "She cannot make a decision until she is certain whether the Tleilaxu had acted treacherously."
    • Insight: Highlights the moral complexities Bene Gesserit undergo in executing their missions.

Chapter 19: Assassination Attempt and Teg's Strategy

• Face Dancer Infiltration ([27:02] Abu):

  • An assassination attempt by a Face Dancer nearly succeeds in killing Duncan and Lucilla, thwarted by Teg’s timely intervention.
  • Notable Quote ([28:16] Abu):
    "I knew you would throw yourself in that thing's path and sacrifice yourself to save Duncan."
    • Insight: Teg's foresight and tactical planning save lives, underscoring his exceptional leadership.

• Confrontation with Shuang Yu ([30:00] Abu):

  • Teg confronts Shuang Yu, subtly implying her complicity in the betrayal without direct accusation.
  • Notable Quote ([32:49] Abu):
    "He wouldn't dare accuse a Reverend Mother to her face."
    • Insight: Teg employs psychological tactics to maintain alliances and expose deceit without overt confrontation.

Takeaways

1. The Risks of Extended Life

• Discussion Points ([36:17] Abu):

  • Taraza and Teg explore how prolonged lifespans, facilitated by melange, impact human nature and institutional stagnation.
  • Notable Quote ([38:05] Abu):
    "Some people never observe anything. Life just happens to them. They get by on little more than a kind of dumb persistence."
    • Insight: Extended life doesn't inherently lead to wisdom; it can result in emotional and intellectual stagnation.

• Comparative Analysis ([40:05] Abu):

  • References to the Numenoreans and the anime Frieren illustrate how long lifespans can fail to prevent societal decay and individual complacency.
  • Notable Quote ([48:27] Leo):
    "I've also come to realize the connection that you've made here intellectually, which is the Bene Gesserit sisterhood being the longest lived order of all, would fall the most to the downsides of this longer life analogy."
    • Insight: The Bene Gesserit's longevity may exacerbate their susceptibility to entrenched beliefs and resistance to change.

2. Teg's Humility and Self-Perception

• Discussion Points ([54:08] Leo):

  • Teg is perceived as humble despite his exceptional abilities, often underestimating his own value and the trust bestowed upon him by Taraza.
  • Notable Quote ([50:56] Abu):
    "You're too old for this."
    • Insight: Teg's humility masks his strategic genius and the pivotal role he plays in countering institutional flaws.

• Taraza's Influence ([60:09] Leo):

  • Taraza encourages Teg to transcend the Bene Gesserit's limitations, positioning him as a potential catalyst for profound change.
  • Notable Quote ([60:53] Leo):
    "He is the key to getting out of stagnation."
    • Insight: Teg embodies the necessary heretical mindset to challenge and evolve the Bene Gesserit order.

Spice Morsels

1. Satori

• Definition and Context ([63:00] Abu):

  • Satori is derived from Japanese Zen Buddhism, signifying sudden enlightenment and a complete reordering of one's consciousness.
  • Notable Quote ([63:11] Abu):
    "We achieve an exalted form of satori total. It involves every cell. The spice agony."
    • Insight: The Bene Gesserit's transformation into Reverend Mothers parallels the attainment of satori, representing profound personal and spiritual rebirth.

• Literary Connection ([65:53] Abu):

  • Earlier references in the book echo the concept of satori, tying Bene Gesserit philosophy to Zen Buddhist principles.
  • Notable Quote ([63:54] Leo):
    "To achieve Satori, no understanding is needed. Satori exists without words, without even a name."
    • Insight: Emphasizes the ineffable nature of true enlightenment, mirroring the Bene Gesserit's secretive and transformative processes.

2. Bene Gesserit Eightfold Combat

• Definition and Theories ([66:55] Abu):

  • The term likely refers to an eight-principle combat system employed by the Bene Gesserit, potentially inspired by martial arts or Buddhist philosophy.
  • Notable Quote ([66:57] Leo):
    "Are you hearing us, Trantor? You dumb, Dumb Old Empire."
    • Insight: While not directly related, this quote humorously underscores the complexity and strategic depth of Bene Gesserit training.

• Buddhist Influences ([66:57] Abu):

  • Possible parallels between the Eightfold Combat and the Buddhist Eightfold Path, suggesting a philosophical underpinning to Bene Gesserit combat techniques.
  • Notable Quote ([66:57] Abu):
    "In this interpretation, like, let's say, Frank meant to mirror the Eightfold Path, the Buddhist Eightfold Path, with his Bene Gesserit Eightfold combat."
    • Insight: Integrates Eastern philosophical concepts into the martial and strategic training of the Bene Gesserit.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Abu and Leo delve deep into Heretics of Dune, unraveling complex relationships, institutional critiques, and profound philosophical themes. Through their insightful chapter summaries, they highlight the intricate dynamics between characters like Miles Teg and Taraza, the ethical quandaries faced by Bene Gesserit members, and the broader implications of extended lifespans on societal and individual evolution. Their takeaways shed light on the inherent risks of longevity and the understated humility of Teg, positioning him as a pivotal figure in challenging and potentially transforming entrenched beliefs within the Bene Gesserit order. The spice morsels enrich the discussion by connecting Dune's terminologies to real-world philosophies, emphasizing the depth of Frank Herbert's world-building.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• "We're supposed to follow a mother Superior's orders with absolute devotion. And we do, except when we disagree." – Abu ([07:57])
• "Some people never observe anything. Life just happens to them." – Abu ([38:05])
• "You're too old for this." – Leo ([56:46])
• "To achieve Satori, no understanding is needed." – Leo ([63:56])

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Reading Assignment for Next Episode:

• Read Chapter 21 of Heretics of Dune, ending with: "It has been here for millennia and now it's ours."

Support the Podcast:

• Become a patron or visit the merch store Lore Party
• Share your thoughts and theories at podcastmail.com

Connect with Us:

• Follow on Twitter and Instagram: @Lore_Party

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Remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. See you on the Golden Path!

Transcript

[Leo]

I have sent Guild IX and Tleilaxu the message we always dispatch when we have been annoyed. 3 words you will podcast.

[Abu]

How will they podcast?

[Leo]

A proper Gom Jabbar punishment is being fashioned. They will feel the consequences of their behavior.

[Abu]

But what will you do?

[Leo]

So, basically, we're gonna write out a 19 page script and then we're going to record. It's gonna be a nine hour recording and then we're gonna force them to edit it down to 30 minutes.

[Abu]

Yep. Good luck.

[Leo]

And it's all dick foreign. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are back into Heretics of Dune.

[Abu]

Hell, yes, we are.

[Leo]

I'm something of a heretic myself.

[Abu]

I was going to say, I'm feeling quite heretical myself today. Yeah, maybe I'll say some shit on this podcast, huh?

[Leo]

I can't wait. I can't wait. But before you say some shit on this podcast, we should get through housekeeping.

[Abu]

Yes, we should.

[Leo]

And as usual, today's episode will contain no spoilers past the pages and books that we've covered thus far. So if you are caught up with the book club, you are safe to listen, my dear listener.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, at the top of the show, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Caballo, Jonathan Lambert. C.R. spruell, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Your generosity, yeah. Opens up a magical universe for this podcast, Okay? A universe in which there are endless possibilities and we are not constrained by our beliefs or reality.

[Leo]

So reality is like bills. It's like late stage capitalism and bills. Yeah, okay.

[Abu]

Unfortunately.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And of course, our gratitude extends to all of our patrons who support us at every level. Indeed, you're all helping create this magical little universe that we put out on this podcast. And we thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

[Leo]

Thank you, everyone. For real. Okay, today's episode, as always, we are going to begin with a summary of today's chapters that we covered. We're going to dive into a couple of takeaways, and then we're going to wrap up with some yummy steaming hot spice morsels. But before we get into it, we are going to take a quick break. So, dear listener, don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're going to hit chapter 16 of Heretics of Dune. If you need three new reasons to love Jack wraps at Jack in the Box even more, here they are. Chicken fajita, Chicken Caesar and delicious starting at $3. Coincidentally, those are the same three reasons you should come to Jack in the Box. Right now at Jack, every bite's a big deal. Hey there men looking for a boost in the bedroom. HIMS is here to help with personalized ED treatment options and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care by providing you with access to affordable sexual health treatments. HIMS provides access to a range of doctor trusted ED treatments like chewable Hard Mints and Viagra and Cialis and their generics for up to 95% cheaper. All you do is answer a couple of questions on their site and the medical provider will determine the right treatment option. If prescribed, your medication ships directly to you for free. No insurance is needed, and one low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. With hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers, HIMS can help you to find the ED option that works best for you. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] gomjabbar that's H I M S.com gamjibar for your personalized ED treatment options. Himss.com the products mentioned are chewable compounded products which are not approved by or verified for safety or effectiveness by the fda. Prescriptions require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if appropriate restrictions apply. See website for details and important safety information. Subscription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's start as always with our chapter summaries today beginning with our first chapter. Chapter 16.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So first chapter today kicks off with everyone's favorite Supreme Bashar Miles deg.

[Leo]

Love him. Yeah.

[Abu]

As he's sitting in his office in the keep and his mind wanders to an old memory. In fact, a memory of a chat with Taraza.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In this memory, they had just averted a bloody battle. Again, a bit of a pattern for our Bashar Miles Tag. And Taraza and Tag are taking a much needed break in her parlor. They're sipping on this secret Bene Gesserit beverage that reduces fatigue, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And let me read you this description because I found this absolutely hilarious.

[Leo]

Yeah. As I sip on my beverage that's.

[Abu]

Reducing my fatigue, Taraza dialed her food drink installation. It dutifully produced two tall glasses of creamy brown liquid. Teg recognized the smell as she handed him his glass. It was a quick source of energy, a pick me up that the Bene Gesserit seldom shared with outsiders. End quote. Okay, folks, this sounds like coffee or tea. And it sounds like the Bene Gesserit are fucking hoarding that shit from the galaxy.

[Leo]

I mean, same. If I established a secret order, I think I'd keep coffee to us as well, just to, like, protect the stores, you know.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Especially if, you know, it sounds like this isn't a commodity anymore.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Now, coffee aside, in this conversation, Tag notices that Taraza is quite relaxed, actually. Her defenses are lowered and she's really speaking to him on a level where it's clear that she recognizes Tag as an equal. She's not his boss or his manager in this moment. She is speaking on a human to human level with an equal. And Teg very much appreciates this.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's really. It's touching.

[Abu]

It's touching. Again, it clues us into their very special working relationship that they've clearly had together for years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, getting to the actual content of the conversation, it does meander a little bit, but it touches on a few important points that we want to quickly summarize.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Firstly, Taraza shares how heretics in the sisterhood are something of an inside joke. She explains, quote, we're supposed to follow a mother Superior's orders with absolute devotion. And we do, except when we disagree. End quote.

[Leo]

That's awesome.

[Abu]

Incredible. I love when Taraza is cheeky like that.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

She also, in this conversation, proposes this idea that doubt is something of a cure to stagnant belief systems.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And in fact, she says this is one of Teg's strengths because he is, quote, supremely able to doubt. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And in that line of thinking, there is this really interesting implication that Taraza maybe wants Teg to have heretical thoughts.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

He doesn't seem to have them now in this conversation, but perhaps in the future.

[Leo]

Yeah. This idea of, like, because for Teg, he just understands it as obedience and he is supremely obedient to the Bene Gesserit. But even as he says, oh, I would never, never disobey you, Taraz is like, sipping her coffee, like, okay, we might be able to change that one day. And again, the feeling I get from that conversation is like, she's like, no, no, you think of heretic as a bad thing, but it's really. It's valuable to avoid stagnation within an order.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Now, Taraza also reveals that the Sisterhood suspects that Paul and Leto were supremely bored by their prescience.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And in fact, they posit that these two individuals, these two Kwisatz Haderachs, were creating the futures they foresaw, which is something we've talked about many times on this podcast. Quote, we think their entire lives were devoted to trying to break out of the chains they themselves created. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which is interesting.

[Leo]

Yeah. I feel like she listened to our book club about Dune and Dune Messiah, because, yes, that is sort of the vibe. Now, I did want to point out, my initial thought was Leto wasn't trying to break out of the chains he created. He was doing exactly what he intended to do and wasn't trying to flee his confinement. He confined himself for the purpose of saving humanity. So my first thought was like, oh, shit, the Bene Gesserit are wrong. And even though they have all of this information about Leto and Darius Balat and they've got all of his journals, they still don't understand. But, of course, this is Taraza talking. This is a Reverend Mother talking, who, at every any given moment, she's teaching lessons. I get the impression that she is probably more. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this, Abu. I get the impression that she is saying that to drive home this point of prescience and just oversimplifying. But I don't know. It's like, is she oversimplifying? Is she wrong? Did you have a feeling about this?

[Abu]

I'm not sure. I am of two minds, because I think there is a world where they misinterpret the pressing abilities of the Kwisatz Haderach because they don't know them. But at the same time, Leto's journals exist, which kind of explicitly lay out his plans. And so if you kind of read that and take it word for word, then you know why Leto did what he did, and you know that he was trapped of his own volition on purpose because he knew that was the only way to save humanity. I think I lean more towards. She's just simplifying for Tag. Right. She doesn't have the time right now to go through 54 episodes and four books of book clubs to fucking explain the new every single nuance of prescience to Miles Teggy. And she's just telling him the broad strokes. And for what it's worth, I think she's kind of mostly correct for Paul. Paul was the one who was more trapped by his prescience. And it really took Leto, too, learning from his father's mistakes and making different choices to break out of that trap. So I think if I had to pick a side, I would probably lean towards. She's just simplifying the lesson here and skipping over some of the nuance. She's aware of it. The Bene Gesserit are likely aware of it as well. But what Teg really just needs to know here is that prescience is a trap and one to be avoided.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think that's the more interesting interpretation, too, because it adds this layer of performance for Taraza.

[Abu]

Yeah, I agree. I think it's the more interesting interpretation and the one that, to me, at least, feels more in line with the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, to wrap up this chapter. Teg is jolted out of this memory, out of this conversation, back into the present, back in his office in the keep, and his anxiety has melted away. He's once more able to focus on his duties and on his tasks. He's once more able to dip in and out of his mentat mindset.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And what's fascinating is the realization he comes to at the end of this chapter. He realizes that he has once again been taught a lesson by the Mother Superior, this time about the dangers of rigid belief systems, about the universe, about ourselves, about humanity. And Tag realizes that Taraza seems to be priming him to think in a different way than he has his entire life. And in doing so, she has opened up his mentat mind and amplified his abilities in a dangerous way. Quote, Terrazzo was demanding a fearful performance from him. The need for such a thing both challenged and terrified him. It could very well mean the end of the sisterhood. End quote.

[Leo]

Huge. Frank knows how to write a cliffhanger.

[Abu]

Yeah. Wild.

[Leo]

Now our next chapter. Today we return to Rakis. We're back on Rakis, and this is following the attempt on Shanna's life as Odrade basically just puts every project manager to shame with her incredible multitasking. Unreal. Super cool chapter. I thought this was amazing. She's taking control goals. She is fully taking control of the situation. It's amazing. So we see Odre just, like, firing off commands, receiving reports. She has this makeshift command center in Shiana's room, and the whole time, Shiana's asking her questions, you know, the very. Like, what kids do? Or she's like, but why? But why? And she's answering her while also running this, like, command center. It's incredible.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And it is clear on the topic of Shiana. It is clear that throughout the chapter, Shiana Has a ton of potential. She taught herself the voice. Like, that's wild. She taught herself how to use the voice, but she is still unrefined. She's arrogant, she's bratty. She's entitled. She's just. She's petulant. All of those things. All those things wrapped into one, and she's unable to control her emotions. A surprisingly vindictive child, Odrade thought that would have to be curbed. Hatred was as dangerous an emotion as love. The capacity for hatred was the capacity for its opposite. End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Now, while answering some of Shiana's questions, Odrade thoroughly examines the room and starts to realize that its geometry makes no sense. It's like no two walls are parallel. Everything's, like, weird angles. And she realizes this is actually set up such that anyone talking in the room, the sound will bounce its way into the air duct and then be deposited in some other room in the complex, which is so cool. Like a whispering wall. Have you heard about those? Like, there's one in Grand Central where if you stand, it's like you can be 65ft away from someone, and it's with Grand Central in between you, and you can, like, whisper, and someone 65ft away from you can hear. Whoa. Because of the architecture, the dome of that room. So this is a real thing. Whispering walls and, like, audio acoustical geometry or something like that. It's all very. This is all totally real. So it's cool to see.

[Abu]

Even churches, you know, church cathedrals are built in a way so that acoustically, everyone in all the pews can hear the sermon.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. Unamplified. The person can stand at the front and be heard in the back.

[Abu]

Absolutely. This is the whole concept behind amphitheaters. Right. This is why amphitheaters are built the way they are, to project the sound outwards.

[Leo]

I loved this. This is so cool. And of course, a Bene Gesserit would be the one to notice this. Where she's going. Wait a second. So if I make a. It's going to bounce? Okay. Oh, yeah. Look at that vent. Perfect for receiving the whispers. Wow.

[Abu]

Right? I need to hire o'draid to come soundproof my studio. You know, she could figure out all the nuances of where the audio is going wrong.

[Leo]

God, she'd be so helpful. Kind of a mundane application of her mastery, but I'll take it. I'll buy her a box of, like, I don't know, whatever she wants.

[Abu]

Yeah, whatever she wants.

[Leo]

Lunch is on me. Come check out my Studio.

[Abu]

I also found this incredibly funny when you realize that this room, Shiana's room, used to be High Priest Headley Tuek's room.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So the fact that this room, presumably all high priests get this suite.

[Leo]

You know, I was going to say, I feel like it's the room of the station. Like you're elected to the highest priesthood, you get put into this.

[Abu]

This is their spied upon office. Exactly. And it's an easily spied upon room. Like it's giving Watergate. And this, I think again is another layer of subtle storytelling from Frank. Another condemnation of the priesthood. Right. This is a priesthood where once you're elected to the highest office, it's all secrets and subterfuge.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it's just yet again another example of how deeply corrupt this religious organization is the fact that their leader has to be spied on at all times because they're always playing politics.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's so good. It's such good world building. It's just such a good. The other thing is, so she realizes this, summons an acolyte, you know, finger signs the acolyte to go find out who's listening and who they report to. Don't do anything yet. We can't let them know. Eventually she's like, okay, wait, wait, wait. Go kill them. Person kills them, comes back. It was four people loyal to Headley Tuek. Okay. They were two X men. The unspoken thing here though, is that at some point Henley Tuek, who presumably may not have known that his room was very easily spied upon, had to then have a conversation with people where they're like, so, Headley Headman, what up? We have some news that might be interesting to you. Your room, we have a way of listening into it and you might want to like. The fact that these are four people loyal to Headley means that at some point someone had to break the news to him. Like, by the way, or. Oh, you know what? Just occurring to me, maybe everyone always knows. Maybe the head priest knows that they're being spied upon and just knows that they are never away from prying eyes.

[Abu]

Right. This is why you would put Shiana in this room too. So you would be able to always hear what the holy child is saying in her private moments.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

What holy utterances she says as she falls asleep and what she's talking about in her sleep. You listen in on that. Yeah, there is that possibility as well. Right. Like on one end, this could. This is a great point you've brought up. I hadn't realized this And I'm kind of processing it in the moment. But on one level, this could just show the corruption of this institution, and I think it still does. Like, spying is a corrupt act, regardless of why you're doing it. For the most part.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But this could also be an intentional strategic thing. Like the high priest gets the room where everyone can listen. Because high priests should always be held accountable and should always be afraid that anything they say is being listened to. And it's a way of accountability. But I think Tuik, in this instance, could be using it as a way to also just listen and spy in on Shiana at all times.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or any outsider to the church. Because also imagine you're going to the high priest's private chamber, and the high priest is like, please step in and I can receive your confessional or whatever. And the person is like, well, the door's closed. We're good. Not knowing that there's four other people listening just outside, ready to turn you over to the authorities or whatever if you say some shit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

There's a lot of possibilities here, and I'm not sure exactly where the line is drawn. Very interesting. Brings up a lot of questions.

[Abu]

All that from just a couple of throwaway world building details. All that in this chapter.

[Leo]

All that from. So the four priests are killed, which is hilarious. Also the acolyte who's just like, here, and this is their, like, internship. And it's like, oh, by the way, can you go manslaughter four people for me?

[Abu]

Hilarious.

[Leo]

Oh, God. Okay. I haven't had my stimulant drink yet today. But her primary reason for doing this is because Shiana mentions the Face Dancers. The like face dancer 2.0, that the bene Tleilax have been very secretive about. That again, the Bene Gesserit can detect. They can smell the pheromones, but they do not want to let the Bene Kleilax know that. So this is all mind games. This is all 5D chess. They're just having to constantly play this battle of who knows what. And how do we keep other people from learning what we know in this battle of information?

[Abu]

Yep, exactly.

[Leo]

Now the chapter ends as a petulant, really intolerable Shiana, really insufferable, very much getting on my nerves. Demands that Odrade teach her about being a reverend Mother. Odrade has had enough of Shiana. She's like, okay, she has registered Shanna at this point, so she knows how to use the voice against her very successfully. And she is tired of the bullshit and ready to kind of command Shianna's attention and respect. So she uses the full force of the voice. She's like, sit down, relax, shut up for a minute. Right. Another great way to end the chapter. Frank's firing on all cylinders for sure.

[Abu]

A great little chapter. And once again shouts to Odrade's multitasking abilities. My God.

[Leo]

Yeah, she says it's simulflow or simulflow. And I'm like, cool, where do I buy similflow? Can I buy semi? How do I get that?

[Abu]

I've heard of the flow state. How do I get into the similflow state? Because I desperately need that. Most days I need to be able to do five things at once to get through a day. Most of the time.

[Leo]

Oh, that'd be so good.

[Abu]

Teach me, O'Draid.

[Leo]

Teach me. After you finish helping me with the acoustics of my recording studio. You can?

[Abu]

Yeah, I still need help.

[Leo]

Teach me some.

[Abu]

But then teach me. Same old flow. Okay, let's wrap up our chapter summaries. One more to go. Our final chapter is another explosive one, folks.

[Leo]

Unbelievable. Yeah.

[Abu]

And once again, we see an assassination attempt go down. So at the start of the chapter, Lucilla is observing Duncan as he's whirling and twirling during a practice session down in the courtyard. He's displaying a very impressive command of his body and mind, so much so that Lucilla wonders if Duncan might rival Teg himself one day. Which is a high bar, I imagine, to reach.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, we also learned from Lucilla's thoughts here, as she's observing Duncan, that she has already successfully imprinted a motherly love on the young lad. But she's sort of grappling with the next step because her next task is to imprint this very young 16 year old boy sexually. She is an imprinter for the Bene Gesserit. This is her job. And she's sort of struggling with it. Although we know her loyalty to the sisterhood is pretty ironclad. She's gonna go through with it, but that doesn't mean she won't feel a little bit icky about it.

[Leo]

Yeah, because she's so young and this was a direct order from Taraza. Like, this is not like a. You need to get something done. It's like you need to actually seduce this child. And she's like, this is fucked up. I don't like. It's. It's too early. And everyone knows it's too early. But if I'm getting that command from the Reverend Mother Superior. I have to obey.

[Abu]

Right. One other quick sidebar I wanted to bring up here. As Lucilla is observing Duncan is kind of weird, but also a little poignant. I mean, she thinks about her fantasies about breeding with the legendary Miles Teg and having a child by him. But ultimately she does come to the conclusion that, quote, to seduce Teg now would be demeaning not only of him, but of herself. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, she had done some pre work, right? Like, she had laid the groundwork for the seduction, and she knows that she could probably still force it. We see the confidence of a fully established reverend mother, like, breeder. She's like, I know how to seduce men. I can emulate those forms effortlessly. But, yeah, there's, like, a dignity and there's a pride. And, like, Teg has given so much to the sisterhood, and to do that would be to, like, disrespect him in a way that she is just not comfortable with. So she's like, okay. Because even he's. He, at one point, I think, had to, like. She was like, ooh, hey, Tag. And he's like, don't. What are you doing? Like, don't.

[Abu]

I'm too old for this.

[Leo]

I'm too old for. Too old for this shit. She's like, oh, my God, he saw through that early attempt. That's crazy. But she's backing off because she's like, oh, yeah, no, there's a lot of. There's a. Yeah, there's. It's dignity, and you don't want to. You don't want to step all over dignity.

[Abu]

It reveals an institutional respect of Teg that goes beyond just, oh, Taraza and Tag have a good relationship and respect each other, Right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It shows that even a younger, greener reverend mother like Lucilla knows of Miles Tag and respects him greatly.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And, yeah, sure, fantasizes about breeding with him, but ultimately decides that that's not the right way to go, and it would be disrespectful indeed. Now getting to the action of this chapter. My God.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Teg walks out in the courtyard to meet Duncan.

[Leo]

Is it, though?

[Abu]

Except it's not motherfucking Teg at all, folks.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

It's a face dancer holding a lay's gun ready to fucking kill the ghola.

[Leo]

Unreal.

[Abu]

Lucilla and Duncan both recognize this almost at the same time, and both leap into action. Although Lucilla clearly understands the situation and realizes that there's no hope here, this face dancer is about to kill Duncan and probably her as well. Luckily, they are saved last minute by the actual Batshar Miles Tag himself, who quickly kills the Face Dancer and ushers Duncan and Lucilla into his quarters in the keep, where it is safe now. In the keep, in Teg's quarters, Teg explains the situation. He says that he and Patrin have been busy countering this concerted attack by the Tleilax, who within the keep. And he didn't have enough time to go out into the courtyard and kill this Face Dancer before it could get out there. And in fact, he made the tactical decision to allow this one Face Dancer to go out there so that he could take care of the ones in the keep first.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, I had it timed. You two could last at least a minute out there. I knew you would throw yourself in that thing's path and sacrifice yourself to save Duncan. Another 20 seconds, end quote.

[Leo]

Absolutely crazy.

[Abu]

Absolutely crazy. You love to see Teg's tactical mind at work, knowing that he was buying himself 60 seconds. He could definitely get out there by then. Cool. And if shit got hairy, whatever, Lucilla would die. But that would buy him another 20 and he would for sure be able to save Duncan. And he made that call in the moment. And even Lucilla, despite her kind of getting offended by this.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Even Lucilla recognizes, like, damn, he's right. He made the right call. Yeah, this is Miles Tagg at work. Who am I to question?

[Leo]

It's so good. And again, even the unspoken estimation of how long they had and how long, how much time there was left is based on his accurate assessment of Duncan's abilities, which he is sussed out. And he knows partially, I'm sure, because he's training Duncan, but the fact that she doesn't know what he knows about Duncan's capabilities. Again, we're seeing not only how good he is at this sort of tactical thinking, but we're also seeing what information he does have and doesn't have and who he's sharing that information with. Probably also because of his own almost Bene Gesserit, like. And we'll talk about that in the takeaways, his Bene Gesserit, like, 5D chess game. Like, Teg's got his own internal universe that he's keeping. It's very cool, for sure.

[Abu]

And, you know, a minute was conservative. You know, like, Teg is not the kind of guy who doesn't add buffer time on the top and bottom of every event.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

He invites you over to dinner and he says, 5:00. He's really expecting you at 5:15.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now to wrap up the chapter. Obviously, the big question here is, who the fuck let the Face Dancers into a secure keep? Yeah, the obvious suspect is Shuang Yu, who shows up herself in a huff, all huffing and puffin, in Teg's office, demanding to be allowed to go wherever she wants to and for the lockdown to be lifted. Tag, of course, says no. He's like, we're out there finishing up some cleanup work, and lockdown is still in effect.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's actually. I mean, I think it is revealed. It was a point. The point person who might have, like, left the door unlocked or let them in was a guard that was. That came along with Shuang Yu. Right, right. One of Shuang Yu's loyalists. I mean, I guess they don't know for certain how deeply her betrayal lies. Like, maybe she just let them in, but that's it. Maybe she's still actively trying to killed Duncan, and, like, Lucilla, at all points, is keeping herself between Shuang Yu and Duncan just to make sure, you know, everything's good. So, yeah, I don't get the impression they know how deeply her betrayal has gone, but we know that the point person, at least, who made all this possible was one of the guards that came with her.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone in the room knows it's Chuang Yu. And Chuang Yu maybe is still pretending everyone in the room doesn't know, but they all are like, yeah, it's you.

[Leo]

What? People got in. That's cr. Everyone's just blank face staring at her.

[Abu]

Did we lock the door before bed? Was. Whose job was that this time? You?

[Leo]

I thought. Was it your job? Tag? Oh, my God. Everyone did Tag, forget to. Oh, it's embarrassing, you know, slipping up.

[Abu]

In your old age. Now, of course, Teg confronts Shuang Yu here, and we see him pull some pretty incredible mental jujitsu on a Reverend mother. He basically claims that the Tleilaxu have betrayed her. He basically says that without saying that. And he says it by saying, well, your office got blown up. Weren't you supposed to be in there? By the way, the attackers blew up your office. I thought they were here to kill Duncan. Why would they do that? Again, he's not accusing her of colluding, but he is implying the people you fucking colluded with just betrayed you and tried to blow you up. Yeah, quote, clever. Lucilla thought Shuang Yu could not make a decision until she was certain whether the Tleilaxu had acted treacherously. End quote. It's a brilliant Bit of Jiu Jitsu from Teg. He wouldn't dare accuse a Reverend Mother to her face.

[Leo]

No, no, no, no.

[Abu]

But he's certainly letting her know that he fucking knows she was in on it and that she fucked up by trusting the Tleilaxu. Or at least he's scaring her into thinking that. I suspect Teg is the one who blew up her office to make it look like.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Almost like Tleilaxu betrayed her. Yeah. I suspect he's playing even more layers.

[Leo]

Of games here also, just for his own pleasure. He's like, that would be super funny. Make sure. Hey, you know how she keeps her, like, collectible cards outside of her office? Can you put those in her office today?

[Abu]

Just right. Those are rare. Those are worth.

[Leo]

Those are super rare. Make sure they're in her office. Yeah, Inside on the table would be great. Yeah, yeah. Close to the flower vase. Close to the flower vase, if possible.

[Abu]

Go ahead and place it on that ugly fucking rug I've always hated. Can't wait to watch that shit burn.

[Leo]

I also. I wanted to say this moment was so crazy, because, of course, yeah. Shuang Yu's like, wait for me here, and then fucking leaves. And Lucilla has this moment, quote, very bad emotional control. Lucilla thought what this revealed about Teg, though, was equally disturbing. He did it to her. Teg had kept a Reverend Mother off balance, end quote. Which is fucking crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah. And we've seen multiple examples of that throughout the book so far. We mentioned it in the last episode, too. Tag is maybe one of the only people in the universe that can tap dance with a fully trained Reverend Mother and in this instance, even come out on top.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

Now, as you said, Xuan Yu rushes off in a bannock to figure out what's actually going on and whether the Tleilaxu have betrayed her. And Teg uses this moment to whisk Duncan and Lucilla into out of the Keep in secret. We're officially on the run, folks. And that's where this chapter wraps up. Teg, Duncan, Lucilla escape the Keep and head out into the wilds of Gammu to who knows what plan.

[Leo]

I love this chapter. Again, Frank. Being able to dodge in and out of, like, the different tempos of writing where things are happening with this, like, crazy staccato. And then other times are these, like, very thoughtful, sort of slower, contemplative dialogue chapters where people are just talking. The whole section where the face dancer standing there with the lace gun and then the, like, red burn Mark appears on their breast, and then their arm falls away. Is so fucking anime. Just like. Yeah, straight out of the. Like, jujutsu, kaisen sukuna. You know, cut someone just the. And you're like, oh, shit. What's happening? So good.

[Abu]

The end of this chapter certainly feels like a shift in the energy in this book.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed.

[Abu]

And I think it certainly feels like things are now fucking in motion. We're done with the setup. We're done with. I mean, we're always gonna get philosophy and politics in Dune, and we're always gonna get two people in a room sitting and talking to each other, but it certainly feels like we've kicked it up at least one gear after this chapter. All right, that wraps up the chapter summaries. Yeah, let's take another quick breather. But, dear listener, don't go anywhere, because we got a couple of meaty, delicious takeaways. It's almost lunchtime. I'm getting hungry. We got some takeaways to dive into right after this break, so we will see you in just a minute.

[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's do it. Let's talk about our takeaways today. Our first takeaway today is the risks of extended life. Now, this goes to Taraza and Teg's conversation that he thinks back to in that first chapter today. And some interesting points are raised around the use of spice and what effect an extended lifespan has on the human psyche. Like, what is it like to live 300 years? And we wanted to take a couple of minutes today and unpack some of these ideas and kind of look at them in isolation.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's really interesting to think about. I have so many thoughts, but let's actually start with Taraza's observation on the effects that melange has on human nature. Quote, I was addressing the way a significant life extension has produced in some people, you especially, a profound knowledge of human nature. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Tag's response is quite sort of pragmatic. And Mentat, like, he's like, well, you know, you live longer, you experience more life, you gain more wisdom. Right, that makes sense to me.

[Leo]

Yeah. More data. More data for the Mentat.

[Abu]

Right? More data. You learn more, you see more things, you eat more food, and you just know more about the world and people and everything.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

He kind of sees it as just like a linear graph. You know, more time equals more wisdom. But I found Taraz's response really enlightening and actually kind of a little bit savage because it made me think of a Couple of people in my own life. Quote, I don't think it's quite that simple. Some people never observe anything. Life just happens to them. They get by on little more than a kind of dumb persistence, and they resist with anger and resentment anything that might lift them out of that false serenity. End quote. My God, what a poignant observation about human nature and this conversation that they're having about extended lifespans. I loved this.

[Leo]

Yeah, it really, it, like, it goes to a kind of pattern that you see where there are people who. They aren't like bad people. They're just not aware of things and they're not, like, clued in and actively working on being more attentive and aware on, like, a micro scale. I think about people who wear, like, really big backpacks on, like, the New York subway, and they're like, bumping people with their backpacks, and you're like, I know you're not attempting assault and like battering people with your personal belongings, but you. But it does feel a little bit like you're just kind of going through life not aware. And that feels like a distinctive. Like a different mode of living. Stop wearing backpacks on New York somebody. Like, it's crazy. No, the point is, I think there's something about this. Some people are just. They have survival and they have life in mind and in focus, and they're not taking an analytical approach to why do we do these things? How does death affect us? What does it mean to lose someone? What does it mean to grow up? And not going through those questions and looking at those things, you might just be like, yo, philosophy's crazy. Anyway, back to my day job. And then that's your life. And 10 more years of that isn't going to make you 10 years wiser. It's going to entrench you further in the sort of emotional and mental stagnation that has been that decade, Right?

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. And I would even wager, like, this applies to things even simpler than philosophical ideas, right? Like, you don't need to be pondering death to become a more wise human being, but you do need to be growing, right? Like, if you are still the same person you were 10 years ago, like, specifically, this makes me think of people who peaked in high school. If you are not continuing to grow as a person in whatever way that applies, right? Mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, then you are. You are just having life happen to you. You're. You're a passive participant on this ride. On this ride that is your life from start to finish. And I think that's what Taraza is getting at here. Like if there is no active participating in the life that you are living, if there is no growth, if there is no challenge, then to your point, Leo, that is a stagnant way of living and thinking and you're stuck in that quicksand of your life and you're never escaping it. And I think like, if we were to sort of paraphrase Taraza's observation here, this quote that we just read said another way. I think Taraza is basically saying to tag longer life is not the solution to stagnant ways of thinking or living, whether on a personal level or on a larger society, societal or institutional level.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And this is pretty common, right? You see this in a lot of sci fi and fantasy stories. The thing that immediately came to mind for me, for example, was the Numenoreans. Lord of the Rings is really on my mind because Rings of Power season two is back. And the Numenoreans in that story are a people that are granted they are blessed with centuries of life. 200, 300. The more royal line of numerous Numenoreans live up to four or 500 years. But ultimately the sort of tragedy of the Numenoreans is that their society succumbs to the same old things that human societies always have. Greed, fear, hatred, distrust. And so their 400 years of life didn't necessarily make them as a whole, as a society, any wiser than other human civilizations. Maybe on an individual level you had some really wise folks here and there, but there was a societal stagnation that brought about the end of the Numenoreans. That's just one example I can think of in other stories where we see the same idea. Longer life didn't actually mean better. More utopian society or more wiser, kinder people.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah. Another example that comes to mind is the anime Frieren which looks at like you're an elf that lives a thousand years. What does a human lifespan feel like?

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, I loved that show.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also in that show you see long lived creatures underestimating short lived creatures because they're like, well, I've got hundreds of years, thousands of years, what can you do? But we start to see over thousands of years things stagnate and belief systems of I know that I'm really, really good at this. So I'm. So I'm good. You know, like that person who peaked in high school, a demon might be like, I mastered this type of magic. We're good. But then new Types of magic arrive or new techniques arrive or new. The world changes. Again, Buddhism, time is a measurement of change. Things change. And if you're not changing with them, you will come into conflict with them. But I also bring that up because this juxtaposition of like long life versus short life is also accounted for in the conversation between Taraza and tech, where Taraza is bringing up the idea of these human ancestors who only lived 50 to 100 years. And TAG's like, good lord, that's not very much time. And how, how did they. And he asks, how did they get their chores done?

[Abu]

Tag, we didn't.

[Leo]

We did.

[Abu]

I'm weeks behind on laundry. I'm drowning in dirty clothes.

[Leo]

He's like a message from the past. They're drowning in dirty clothes. She's sharing with me her other memory of Abu. Yeah, we just didn't get a lot of shit done. It's like, yeah, I haven't texted that friend back because I'm busy. I'm so busy. But also this idea that they were frenetic at times, right? He goes, did they get more done because they had such short time? And she was like, yeah, they were kind of panicking at times in order to be productive in the time they had. So we see this sort of like double edged sword, like long lifetimes can also lead to a dilution of like how much life people experience. You know, this idea that, you know, and I've kind of reject. I don't know that I fully buy into this, this idea that like death is looming as a motivator for doing anything. I just don't think necessarily that that's true. Or at least it doesn't feel true for me where, like, I make art and I make music and I pick up hobbies. Not because I'm like afraid of wasting the time I have on this earth, but because I have a joy that comes from creation and from experimenting and from. And that joy exists purely. And it just exists. It doesn't need the looming specter of me dying at some point to have value. So I kind of. I've struggled a little bit with the sort of philosophy of our lives are given meaning by their inevitable end.

[Abu]

But that's funny, I envy that. I wish I could feel that. Oh yeah, my entire life is driven by. I'm running out of time. Like in the Hamilton musical, that line where he says, why do you write like you're running out of time? Like, I feel that constantly, every single second of every day. I'm like, there's not enough time. I need to do more before it runs out.

[Leo]

That might just be. By the way, this might just be the difference between type A people and non type A people. My fiance calls me Walking Xanax because she's like, you're just chill. And I'm like, yeah, because life is happening and I'd much rather just be.

[Abu]

Enjoying it than, I mean, again, I truly mean it. I envy that. I wish I could feel that mushrooms in moments. I do. Yeah, right. Maybe the right types of mushrooms could make me feel that.

[Leo]

But, well, well, and, and actually, and joking aside, there, there are, there are some things, like, I felt very tied to the like, timeline of having a family and wanting my parents to be like, involved in my children's lives. And I don't have children yet. And so, like, there are things that I have absolutely grappled with. But again, I will say, I think from a firsthand perspective, I don't think that that is universally true. That the specter of death gives meaning to life.

[Abu]

Yeah, certainly not.

[Leo]

Nevertheless, I could absolutely see how if someone showed up and said, by the way, you are guaranteed to live another 300 years, many people would be okay delaying that thing they want to do by a matter of years. They'd be like, oh, okay, well, if I've got that much time, there's no reason to rush into anything. I'll spend a few years traveling the Caribbean, you know, or whatever. And they would do that. And so they might accomplish less. So I. That pattern of like giving humanity more time wasn't like Teg would expect a linear progression of now they got all this new stuff done. Everyone was enlightened. It was crazy. Everyone was so productive. Instead there's this kind of double, this double edged sword where there was a mental and societal and maybe even philosophical religious stagnation that set in and became even more entrenched because people had all these years to live with confirmation bias or whatever, right?

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that last point you made is especially poignant to what Taraza is saying and to the themes of the Dune saga. This idea that longer lifespan. If you live 300 years believing the same thing, it's going to be really fucking hard at 301 years old to shake you out of that belief.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You've now entrenched it for so long and you just won't react to change. Well, you may not even react to change at all. There might be some threat that you face that you're just not prepared for because you've done the same thing for 300 years now. And survival might require you to dramatically change that, and you just can't because you've. You've. It's too deep. And I think this point applies on an individual level for sure. But Taraza, I think, is, in fact, commenting on people in societies and institutions at large that. That do the same thing for so long. And then when change is required, when they face new ideas or new threats, they're either immediately defensive and reject them, or they are unable to, you know, they get destroyed by the threat because they're unable to adapt and survive.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, that's. That is such an Asimov and Frank Herbert idea, too, where the institutions are inseparable from the individuals who drive them. And if you have individuals who are entrenched and slow to react, driving the bureaucracies that grow up around organizations, that those organizations are also going to be very slow to react and guided by those same principles.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So for sure.

[Abu]

Are you hearing us, Trantor?

[Leo]

You hearing us, Trantor? You dumb, Dumb Old Empire. Stupid. Dumb. I don't know enough about foundation to, like, fully dig into that bit, but I'll get there one day.

[Abu]

You got there. Yeah. Dumb Old Empire is about. About. About it.

[Leo]

Old Empire was the only specific. I just dumb. I was like, that's it. That's all I got.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say, I think Teg, by the end of that chapter, understands this lesson that Taraza is trying to teach him. You know, because we get that really poignant paragraph at the end of the chapter that says, quote, calling up that old memory created a magical universe where his abilities were amplified beyond his wildest dreams. He was forced there to discard all barriers built of belief or understanding. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Discard belief and understanding.

[Leo]

Huge fermentation.

[Abu]

I mean, there's. There's that really great quote that I love that's. I'm paraphrasing because I forget the exact words, but it's something along the lines of, the best way to not learn something is to think you already know it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And here Taraza is making Teg realize that he may not know everything there is to know about the universe, and maybe he should let go of those beliefs and understandings and open his mind to an infinite world of possibilities.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's so, so, so cool.

[Abu]

So cool.

[Leo]

But, yeah, these are all poignant ideas, and I think these are all very much baked into the DNA of the Dune series, but especially these chapters where we have not leto to Ted talking to his unwilling participants, you know, his guests who didn't buy tickets for his TED Talk. But. But actual, like, humans who are talking about human qualities and human nature, who are still in the cycle examining it, is fascinating. And especially one of them is the head of the Bene Gesserit. The top of one of the most influential organizations that exists in the universe. Also one of the most, like, rigidly dogmatic orders in the Dune. You. In the Dune? In the history of Dune, basically.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah, right. These are people who rejected abomination outright. Meanwhile, two Atreides kids come along and basically find two different solutions for the same problem.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

Boom. You don't have to kill a bunch of kids. Bene Gesserit. And yet that is the order as they are.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Yeah. Gosh, it is super, super interesting.

[Abu]

And I do think the timing of her bringing up this conversation about lifespans and the effect of melange and long life not being a solution to stagnant beliefs is extra fascinating because it comes up right after she's, like, casually musing about all the heretics that exist in the sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And you're like, wait a second, wait a second. Taraza girl, look at me. Look. Look at me in the eye. Are you having heretical thoughts, too?

[Leo]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Abu]

Super fascinating. I mean, we're getting a lot of clues throughout this book into how the Mother Superior, the head of the Bene Gesserit Order, views her own organization and in particular, her own organization's shortcomings.

[Leo]

Yeah. I'm also just now putting together. I'm also just now putting together the connection that you've made here intellectually, which is the Bene Gesserit sisterhood being the longest lived order of all, would fall the most to the downsides of this longer life analogy. Exactly, you say. Yeah, exactly. So I was late to the party. Hi, I'm here. I'm here now.

[Abu]

Welcome.

[Leo]

But for any listeners screaming at me, yes, okay, wait, I get it. I get it now. Good point. Because it's true. That's such a great point that she's. They're talking about, oh, yeah, human lives. They get more done, blah, blah, blah. But you could also then extrapolate to. You can look at organizations and say, how much are they getting done and how much are they entrenched in their beliefs and how much are they falling prey to all these issues? And then you go, well, who's the longest lived of all? Oh, no. Oh, no. It's the. Oh, dear. Yeah, right.

[Abu]

They've been around for so long. And if we think of the Bene Gesserit order in terms of a human lifespan. Yikes.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Considering the warnings that Taraza has been spelling out here for Teg, it's wild.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's wild stuff.

[Abu]

And we're getting a lot of hints, and we're clearly laying the groundwork for something big. Taraza is cooking, folks, and it could.

[Leo]

Mean the end of the Bene Gesserit as. As what Teg says in the end of his chapter. Wild.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Well, that is our first takeaway. Our second takeaway is going to be quick. And this is more just something that was kind of nagging at me throughout every chapter with Teg, and that is Teg's humility. And I want to put a big footnote on this, because I want to be clear that, like, Teg knows that he is historically probably one of the most effective Mentats and or Bashars that the universe has ever seen, and he knows how valuable that is, and he knows how valuable his service is, and he knows all of that stuff. But for all of his brilliance. And even with that in mind, I was starting to get nagged by this feeling that Teg does not give himself enough credit. And I just wanted to briefly examine this quality of his. Teg does appear fully capable of saying, I am good at this, this, and this. But it does seem lost on him that, like, I never get the impression that he fully appreciates how deeply Taraza trusts him and relies on him. Right. Like, every time he's with Taraza, he's always like, oh, I find it interesting that she's, like, putting down her guard a little bit. And then you and I are talking about it, and we're like, tag, Taraza's treating you like an equal. She's not, like, doing you a favor by letting her mask slip. She relies on you and needs you and is putting her trust in you in a way that he is not saying for himself, this is what she's doing. He's just like, oh, that's so nice of her to be vulnerable with me. How sweet. How cute. And another thing that came to mind for me here is, you know how the memory kind of comes upon him. This memory of the conversation with Terrazzo.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Reminded me of a thing that happens to Bene Gesserit sometimes. Anybody remember adab?

[Abu]

Hello?

[Leo]

Demanding memory that kind of brings itself to the forefront of your consciousness when you need it.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Sure. Seems like that's what that is. But Tag, of course, not thinking about himself In Bene Gesserit terms. And it's like, teg, Teg, you are a Bene Gesserit. And I say that with frustration because he also has this quote that I wanted to share, and we can talk about this quote. She gave him a new insight into the Bene Gesserit. This changed his entire concept, including his image of his own mother. They were removed from him into an unattainable place where he could never follow. They might think of him as a comrade on occasion, but he could never enter the intimate circle he could simulate. No more. He would never be like muad'dib or the Tyrant, end quote. And I'm like, according to who? He's like, I might be a comrade occasionally. I'm like, teg, you are a lifelong. Like, you are being trusted by the Reverend Mother Superior for your entire life that you've known Taraza. She's apparently trusted you this whole time, like an equal. And he's talking about them being this unattainable place where he can never follow, yet we see him handle Shuang Yu effortlessly. You know, it's really. I don't know, this whole thing just seems like only Teg is denying himself the credit of being as established a Bene Gesserit person as he is. I don't know. Does that. Does that resonate with you, too? Are you kind of getting the.

[Abu]

No. That totally makes sense to me. And I think, given the context of what we just talked about, Taraza's lessons and the seeds that we're planting of what Taraza thinks of the Order, Teg seeing himself outside the Bene Gesserit, not able to replicate them, like Muadiber the tyrant. Two people we know were, like, objectively dangerous for humanity, and we don't ever want happening again. Teg should not want to be like Muad Diber, the tyrant. He should not want to be trapped in the box of prescience.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think the slow realization, this is my theory, the slow realization maybe, that Taraza is even trying to ingrain within Tegu goes even beyond. You are an equal. You are a Bene Gesserit. Goes beyond. You don't need to be a Bene Gesserit. In fact, we need you more than you need us.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

And, in fact, to be Bene Gesserit, to be like us is the mistake of once again repeating muad'dib and the Tyrant. We shouldn't want a male who can have the abilities of a Bene Gesserit. We should want you, Miles, Teg, who is something more than a Bene Gesserit. You are like us, but you shouldn't want to replicate us fully.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And I think Teg is still like two steps away from that because he's still being like, I'm not even like them. I can't even enter this crazy order of Bene Gesserit and do what they do. Like Muad'dib and the tyrant could. And I think Taraz is kind of trying to drill into him like, bro, like magical universe, my guy. You don't even try to join our club. Go beyond that plus ultra, baby.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, also in the conversation of, like, if the Bene Gesserit is The long lived 300 year old human, teg is relative to the Bene Gesserit. Like the person with 50 years in their life. And he's the one that is iterative and is not locked into stagnation and is the key to getting out of stagnation. He's the doubter. He is the supreme heretic who could unlock the future for the Bene Gesserit order. It's so poignant. And yet Teg sees his exclusion from this long lived order as this. Like, I'm lesser than them.

[Abu]

Yes. Right.

[Leo]

When in fact. Yeah, that's his.

[Abu]

The exclusion is almost what makes him more special.

[Leo]

Yeah. And then the fact that he's like, ugh, but I'll never be one of them. Come on, buddy. Oh, Tag, you gotta. You gotta recognize yourself. But this is like the lesson. Yeah, this is the lesson that I think Taraz is trying to kind of eke out of him, trying to make him that ultimate heretic, but toward, you know, it's. Oh gosh. It's also like what Tag was saying at the very beginning where he said, for the Bene Gesserits faults, they have this guiding principle is the thing. The faults are entrenched. So now he can take that guiding principle that he is loyal to and loves and carry it outside of the Bene Gesserit order and make decisions with that guiding principle. And not being entrenched.

[Abu]

Oh, it's so good not being entrenched with those faults. He can leave the faults behind, but still move forward into a new future. Again, like, this all goes back to themes we've hounded on a thousand times. Frank Herbert has always said, the new, the unexpected, the exciting. Leto to spend a whole fucking book ranting about this.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This view of anti stagnation, embracing chaos. We shouldn't be afraid of chaos and the unexpected. Being rebellious against the status quo.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

All of those themes are still so deeply part of the DNA of this series, and we're seeing it here again with a new story with the Bene Gesserit and the inner workings of the Bene Gesserit and great characters like Miles deg.

[Leo]

Well, listeners, those were our takeaways today. We're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we're back, we've got a couple of spice morsels, and we have your reading assignment for next episode, so don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Hope you're hungry, because it's time to eat dessert. We have two yummy spice morsels for you today. We're told they're nutritious and a great source of vitamin B. Oh, okay.

[Leo]

Yeah. The metabolism booster. Sweet.

[Abu]

Yeah. So starting today with our first spice morsel, satori.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In Tegg's memory, Taraza mentions this Zensuni concept referred to as satori. Just once, she said, we achieve an exalted form of satori total. It involves every cell. The spice agony, he said.

[Leo]

End quote. Yeah.

[Abu]

And it's worth taking a moment here to talk about this concept because there's a fun history, and it leads to a really fun connection to a moment earlier in the book.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So, first, starting with the history, satori is derived from the Japanese word satori, which it sounds like in audio. I'm saying the same thing, but just spelled differently.

[Leo]

There's an apostrophe in the other one.

[Abu]

There's an apostrophe in the Dune version. There's no apostrophe in the Japanese word. Now, satori is a concept in Zen Buddhism that is defined as, quote, sudden enlightenment and a state of consciousness attained by intuitive illumination. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That's the Merriam Webster definition. Now, this enlightenment is said to be indescribable by logic, and it's comparable to what the Buddha achieved while sitting under the bow tree.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And thus it's aspirational. It is something you are trying to achieve if you follow this philosophy. Now, the experience of achieving satori is akin to a religious rebirth or a reawakening, or, as Britannica puts it, a complete reordering of the individual in relation to the universe. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So when you apply that to Dune terms. Yeah. The spice agony and the transformation that a Bene Gesserit undergoes to become a Reverend Mother certainly sounds like a form of satori. A total change.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, to wrap up the spice morsel, a quick Note here there is a connection to an earlier chapter in the book. We have heard the term satori before. Sharp eyed readers might remember this quote from the chapter where we meet Waf for the first time. And he's speaking with the. What is the Sufi Zensuni credo? They could not speak it, but all reflected on it. To achieve Satori, no understanding is needed. Satori exists without words, without even a name. End quote.

[Leo]

Fucking love it. I love that.

[Abu]

So much fascinating stuff. So good that the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu are referencing the same Buddhist philosophy which Frank in his universe is calling the Zensuni philosophy. And if you're interested in more words like satori and their definitions, just a reminder that over on Patreon we did release. Leah, you did so much incredible work on this. We released a PDF of Tleilaxu terminology that we see in Heretics of Dune, their etymological inspirations and history, and perhaps even the references that Frank is making with them. There's a big breakdown document that we made and released for free on our Patreon. So if you're interested, go check that out.

[Leo]

Go check it out, please. It took me so much work. Our second morsel today is Bene Gesserit Eightfold Combat. It's kind of Buddhist, Buddhist morsels today. I'm delighted.

[Abu]

Yeah, right up your alley.

[Leo]

Right up my alley. In today's reading, Duncan moves quote in the tumbling twists of the Bene Gesserit Eightfold Combat. End quote. And naturally, the phrase perked our ears right on up, especially mine, because of a thing that'll make sense in a minute. And we did our due diligence and we checked to see if there's like a prime canon definition of what Benny Gesserit Eightfold Combat is. And there doesn't seem to be. But there are a few potential explanations that could add some additional flavor to an already succulent chapter. Succulent series of chapters. So let's talk about it. So the first possibility regarding the Bene Gesserit Eightfold Combat is Frank is using the literal meaning of the word Eightfold, meaning, according to Webster, quote, having eight units or members, end quote. So Frank, like, liked the sound of Eightfold combat and just tossed it in. Meaning the Bene Gesserit Eightfold Combat might have like eight principles or forms or movements, that sort of thing. Right. Now this could be similar to martial arts like Tai Chi that have specific movements that you learn to perform, like the eight Step Yang style form, which has these eight Movements or ten movements, and you do them in sequence. And that's the. I guess that's the form of Tai chi that you learn. And then in this situation, Duncan is moving randomly between these Eightfold movements at a blinding speed. And that's the sort of random movement that Lucilla observes. So that's one possibility. Now, another possibility here, and this is what really, like my first thought was, is in Buddhism, there is the Eightfold Path, which identifies eight aspects or eight sort of like, practices, eight things you should do if you are seeking enlightenment, if you are looking to achieve satori. Interesting, as it turns out. And these are general things. It's like. It's ideas like be kind, that sort of thing. So thematically, this would fit with ideas like Prana Bendu, right? Muscular control brought directly from yoga and with the idea of satori that we just explored, the previous morsel. So in this interpretation, like, let's say, Frank meant to mirror the Eightfold Path, the Buddhist Eightfold Path, with his Bene Gesserit Eightfold combat. That would be maybe eight principles or eight things to keep in mind during combat that a Bene Gesserit learns or practices for the purpose of combat, which is, of course, gaining that big old W over your opponent, winning. So two possibilities there. Maybe Frank just used the word. There's eight steps, eight movements, eight principles. Or maybe this is again to tie Buddhism into Bene Gesserit teachings in a subtle way to say there are these eight principles to keep in mind, and then the movements themselves are guided by those principles. A few different possibilities. And it's also just possible that Frank liked the sound. He's like, Eightfold path, Eightfold combat, breakdancing. Woo. Sounds sick. Print it. You know, couple of possibilities. Just wanted to give you those. And you, dear listener, get to choose your headcanon.

[Abu]

That's right. Very cool. Love all the Buddhist connections in today's episode.

[Leo]

Yeah, same.

[Abu]

All right, well, that wraps up today's book club. Thank you as always, for joining us on this journey. But, folks, there's more. We have homework to assign you for the next book club episode. Make sure that you have read through chapter 21 of the book, which ends on the sentence quote. It has been here for millennia and now it's ours. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. They found a Sega Dreamcast buried in the sand. They're like, oh, my God, it's ours.

[Abu]

Mint condition. What?

[Leo]

The mint condition in its packaging. Wow.

[Abu]

Worth so many Solaris.

[Leo]

It's worth so many Solaris on this. Could buy a home on Tupio, Pixie and ebay. This is crazy. Well, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. Donate your Solaris to us in a few different ways. The two best ways, of course. One is to become a patron, and the second way is to get yourself some dune themed swag at our merch store. Those links are in the show notes, so check those out if you want to support what we do here.

[Abu]

And as always, we love to hear from you, especially if you're reading the book along with us. So email us, come to our podcastmail.com, send us your thoughts, send us your observations, send us crackpot theories. We love it all.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And of course, as always, many of you are really catching on to this trend. Attach a photo of your cute pets. We love seeing those cute little critters.

[Leo]

It's true.

[Abu]

Gammajpart. Podcastmail.com is the place.

[Leo]

I wonder if there's a. Do they. Do you think they teach simul flow in, like, community college? Or like, is that. Is that like a business school sort of thing? Like, where do I go to learn simulflow? I want to do five things at once.

[Abu]

I'm shocked that productivity influencers haven't latched onto that term. You know, this is how you achieve the simo flow state. Maximize your productivity, inject capitalism into your veins. So it's bar what you produce.

[Leo]

It's bit, bro. Cocaine speak. Yeah, like, here's my three tips to get into the simulflow grind mindset. Step one, cocaine.

[Abu]

That's it. There's no step two and three.

[Leo]

Step two and three is also cocaine.

[Abu]

But it's odre just constantly like.

[Leo]

So.

[Abu]

Anyway, Shannon is like, what does that odre teach me? And O'Draid's like, Not yet. You're too young.

[Leo]

You're too young. Oh, my God. The priests in the other room are like, I just hear vigorous sniffing. That's the only thing I'm hearing from this ventilation.

[Abu]

Wow, I love this image of Odrade as, like, that Wolf of Wall street guy. I'm not going anywhere.

[Leo]

I'm not going anywhere.

[Abu]

Shannon's like, holy shit, I don't know that I.

[Leo]

Meanwhile, Taraza and Tag are sitting there.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help straight spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loraparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Lore underscoreparty. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.