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- [00:00]
Abu
Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.
- [00:16]
Leo
My name is Leo.
- [00:17]
Abu
And Leo. Yeah, We've completed Heretics of Dune.
- [00:20]
Leo
Oh my God.
- [00:21]
Abu
But we're not done with it.
- [00:23]
Leo
No.
- [00:23]
Abu
Yet.
- [00:24]
Leo
Not even close. I'm keeping this book close to my heart for the rest of my life.
- [00:30]
Abu
Indeed. Amen to that. No. Today we are recording a live Q and A about Heretics of Dune. This is happening over on YouTube for the folks who will hear this audio after the fact. Patrons get twice monthly live recording sessions where they get to hang out with us, interact with us and chat. And sometimes, like today, patience, be a part of the episode, be a part of the conversation and be a part of the recording. Because we will be answering questions from chat and answering some pre prepared questions. We have for today all about the book.
- [01:05]
Leo
Indeed. Now, as a just bit of housekeeping spoiler warning, for today's episode, we are talking about Heretics of Dune in its totality. So if you haven't read the book, if you haven't finished the book, be where? What are you doing? Stop. Stop listening. Go read the book. You should only be listening if you've finished Heretics of Dune because we are going to be talking top to bottom, including crucially, like plot things from the end of the book.
- [01:31]
Abu
Yeah, huge plot things. So make sure you've read the book, folks.
- [01:35]
Leo
Yeah.
- [01:36]
Abu
Very quickly here at the top, before we dive in, we gotta give a huge shout out and a huge thank you to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, who's in chat right now, I just saw him. Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchinson, Seth Reddin, Greer. Oh my goodness.
- [01:52]
Leo
Dang.
- [01:52]
Abu
Thank you all so much for your support. Truly. It builds the foundation upon which we can run this show and pay our bills. But of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons at every single level who support us month to month and truly make this show possible. We get to keep doing this because of all of you.
- [02:12]
Leo
We could not do it without you. And hey, if you can't become a monthly supporter on Patreon for whatever reason, budget's a little tight. Maybe fatigued from the monthly deductions from the old bank account. Oh, I get it, I get it. It's feast or famine out here these days. In some fields we have a one time tip option through Buy me a coffee. Buy me a spice coffee. The link is in the show notes. So, yeah, if you have a crazy windfall and you want to help us keep the lights on, that's another way to support us and what we do over here at. Com Jabbar.
- [02:43]
Abu
That's right. You win that mega Millions jackpot, send it our way.
- [02:47]
Leo
Just all of it, actually, you know. Yeah, we'll thank you at episode for the rest of time. If you send us that much money.
- [02:55]
Abu
I'll do more than thank you.
- [03:00]
Leo
That is a person from Gamma.
- [03:04]
Abu
All right, that takes care of housekeeping and intro stuff for today's episode. As I stated earlier, it's a Q and A episode about heretics of Dune. So we have a bunch of pre prepared questions, but of course chat. If you have questions, thoughts, comments, concerns, throw them in the chat and we will address them and talk about them as they come up. Yeah, very quickly though, we should talk about our feelings about the book.
- [03:31]
Leo
Yeah.
- [03:32]
Abu
So while folks are getting their questions jotted down in the chat, Leo, let's debrief about the book. Now that we've read this book in its entirety in extreme deep dive fashion for the past, what feels like 10 years, how are you feeling? We've had a week to sit with it.
- [03:49]
Leo
Yeah.
- [03:50]
Abu
How are you feeling about the book? Have your feelings changed about the book? Tell me where you're at.
- [03:56]
Leo
I. Man, your side of the Internet is so noisy today, dude. There's also like a children screaming.
- [04:04]
Abu
Children next door. Yeah.
- [04:06]
Leo
And they're committing crimes, summoning the police to your question. Yeah, man, this book is great. I. I love it. I really have come around on the book, I think. So like many Dune fans, I read the first book and the first book's monumental. The first book, it's so hard to compare that first experience being introduced to Frank's universe. Messiah is a. Is a tonal shift, is a masterpiece in so many ways. Children of Dune is such a fucking romp. It's so good. And then God, emperor of Dune, gets a little weird.
- [04:38]
Abu
So.
- [04:38]
Leo
So I understand when people say the last two books, you know, and talking about heretics today, heretics, it's like it feels like a different vibe. Doesn't really feel like it fits into that first trilogy and it. In many people's lists, it tends to be lower. And I get it. But I also always kind of felt like there was more depth to it that I didn't understand the first time I read it. And I'm so glad we read it together as part of this book club, because, man, every few pages I'd have these like, eye opening, brain opening moments of like, oh, my gosh, the themes are evolving, the characters are changing. We're seeing callbacks to the earliest lore kind of ideas, the prophet making the future, stuff that we've talked about and stuff that, you know, we see Paul wrestling with as. As one of the first prescient prophets. So to see those themes reexamined and kind of unearthed, and then to see the Bene Gesserit, who's been there the whole time, stepping fully into the main spotlight and to suddenly have this kind of internal perspective on this monumentally important faction, it is so great. I'm like, I don't want to be hasty, but I feel like this book has suddenly become one of my top two or three books in the series. Wow. And again, I think that is a thing that will change day to day. You go, what about Duncan rock climbing? And I'm like, okay, yeah, that book is my favorite book. And then you go, what about Messiah? And I'm like, ah, good point. Messiah' number one, you know, so that changes moment to moment. But it is such a good book. And I think I have suddenly become a staunch advocate for heretics being much better than I think most people give it credit for. Within the broader conversation about Dune. The Dune entries, what about yourself? I know, I mean, when we talked about this four years ago, I feel like you were pretty lukewarm on Heretics and Chapter House.
- [06:30]
Abu
Certainly.
- [06:30]
Leo
How are you feeling?
- [06:31]
Abu
Certainly Heretics and Chapter House are not my favorite Dune books by quite a large margin. But I would echo your sentiment. I think going through it with you, book club style, having our conversations, bouncing these ideas back and forth, and genuinely having revelations that I didn't have the first time I read the book have shifted the needle quite a bit for me, you know? Is it my, like, top two, three dude book? No, certainly not. Nothing will ever top Messiah, Dune, Messiah supremacy forever. But it's certainly. I used to be so bold as to say, like, I didn't like Heretics and I didn't like Chapter House. I won't be stating that anymore. I like Heretics of Dune. I think there is a lot of great stuff here. Do I think there are still issues with this book? Certainly. Do I like the first three a lot more. Do I think they're more concise and focused and have clearer ideas and stories? Yes. But this book does things those books don't do either, with its themes, with its bold storytelling choices, with what we've discussed on the Book club is clearly Frank's evolution as a writer and him potentially pushing his own boundaries and trying new ways of exploring these ideas. And I greatly appreciate Heretics for that. So this is a book I like. I can definitively state that now. I was wrong before. And this is a book I appreciate much more than I did a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, the previous times I had visited it. And what's funny is we often get comments and emails that are very sweet about people reading along with us on our book club series and going, oh my gosh, you've changed my opinion of the book. I'm having read Revelations and Breakthroughs. I didn't realize. Yeah, you guys are so wonderful. And like the dirty little secret, everyone. We're having the same revelations in real time.
- [08:45]
Leo
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes live on Mike when we go, wait, holy shit. Wait, holy shit. Oh my God. Absolutely.
- [08:55]
Abu
I think talking about them in this format just inherently pushes you to think about these books in a deeper way. And certainly it has changed my perspective as well. So, yeah, our Book club Episodes folks are also real time journeys for us going through these books and re experiencing them in a deeper way.
- [09:14]
Leo
Yeah. I really like what you're saying about Frank's evolution as a writer because I think oftentimes if we expect the same narrative content, we get disappointed by Heretics and Chapter House. But I remember when we had talked about it the first time and we've talked about some of the books throughout the years. Off mic, on mic I remember telling you about this Reddit comment that had. That I felt like had blown my mind. I was like, this is incredible. And the idea was we are being put in Heretics of Dune. We are putting, we're being put in Taraza's shoes. And Taraza is having this like, do I try this crazy gamble? And we'll talk a little bit today about Taraza's plan and we'll talk a lot more about Taraza's plan in another episode. But like, her plan is crazy and is so clearly playing with the fire of the honor matre and potential extinction of the Bene Gesserit. And she's in this office just thinking, holy shit, am I really going to do this? Is this going to work? You know, Shuang Yu was a little unexpected, but she came back to us in the end. And, you know, and that discomfort of being in that position and that being on the knife's edge and key logs and the whole. All of that, I'm so glad I saw that Reddit comment and I'm now, when we reread the book with that in mind of like people's mental states, Am I in the mental state of Duncan as he's being whisked through the forest and all we're seeing is trees, but we have no idea where we are? Oh, my God. Yeah. I think Frank is a much subtler, more skillful writer in this book than he was when he wrote Dune Messiah. I don't think that makes this a better book than Dune Messiah because we're talking about art and like there's no objective, like, oh yeah, this is a, you know, whatever. Do you. You'll never guess what I got my degree in, folks.
- [11:05]
Abu
Don't let us get into the art conversation again. We'll be here all day. All day.
- [11:12]
Leo
I'll never tell you.
- [11:13]
Abu
Also, and you'll never guess how that is going.
- [11:16]
Leo
I think that Frank, I think that Frank became a subtler, more intentional writer with how he was trying to make feel as the artist, as the person. I think like God Emperor of Dune is such a weird pivot because again, according to some things that I've seen online, Frank may have even written it as Leto's journals and then excerpted scenes from the journals to make into the book that, that we know. So that's a very strange way to write a book. You know, he went from like haiku writing for Dune to journaling for God Emperor of Dune and then Heretics of Dune is this whole new tableau. But I do think it's like the way he's handling our experience as writer, as readers, if we let him, is something that I don't think he could have done in the 50s and 60s when he was writing Dune and Dune Messiah.
- [12:07]
Abu
Yeah, I agree. And for me personally, that's a bit of a double edged sword as well, because Frank is clearly a much more confident writer by the time he's at this point in his career. He's also much more bold with his ideas. Right. He's filtering himself less or being edited less by somebody.
- [12:25]
Leo
And so, you know, like, oh yeah, one more thing, Moneo.
- [12:29]
Abu
Right. Like the worst of his ideas also creep into these books. Many of those criticisms we've touched on as well. And so I think, like, we get the great, excellent, more subtler writing because Frank is improving. We also get him just being more bold and being like, well, I'm an established bestselling fucking author now. Fuck you. I'm going to say what I feel Frank's like.
- [12:50]
Leo
Also, gays have opted not to continue the species. And everyone's like, frank, come on. Fucking guy. Frank. God damn it, Frank.
- [13:01]
Abu
Oh, my God. Exactly. There's some comments I have highlighted here in the chat. I want to throw up. Folks are already throwing some great thoughts out. Let's start with John Curtis. John writes, I see the first three as a trilogy, God Emperor as a midpoint, and then Heretics and Chapter House as the first two of an incomplete trilogy.
- [13:24]
Leo
Spot on.
- [13:25]
Abu
I think that was always sort of the intention. Yeah. I also want to throw up. Here we go. Jaylen's comment. I think Heretics only rivals Messiah in terms of world building, characters like Miles Stagg and narrative themes. Hot take. I might even like it more than the OG Dune.
- [13:47]
Leo
Yeah, you know what? And that's the thing. So, Jaylen, I'm right there with you. I think Dune is incomparable because it was this, like, this whole new universe to explore and it has that novelty and everything. But if you look at the craft of it as a book, and Frank has been very clear on record about Dune and how he built Dune. He built Dune, the first book. Intentionally having that crazy pace change at the end of the book that catches so many people off guard. And some people don't like that. So he was being intentional and making some bold choices. But I do think as a crafted novel, it's maybe not as good as some of the later books. And that's just how it works when you're an author. You have more experience, you have more. So I don't, you know, it's a very clear, clear eyed take of like, how do I evaluate the book or how do I. I don't know. How do you. How do you like it, though?
- [14:44]
Abu
That's.
- [14:45]
Leo
That is bold. That's a hot take. Yeah. Okay.
- [14:49]
Abu
Great. Hot take. Jalen, you're starting us off strong this morning. Yeah, I want to throw up. I think Madison here also acknowledges the difficulty in trying to talk about a book like Heretics. Right. Madison writes, before Gov Jabbar, when I was trying to talk about Heretics and my partner, it was really difficult to condense and translate those themes we've been talking about these last few months. And I would put the emphasis on months. It has taken us months to talk about this book and get to this point. We've treated all the books in that way. But I certainly think this is not the kind of book you can, like, sit down over a weekend, speed, read it and be like, yeah, I got it. And then walk away from it having understood its depth. And I agree. A very difficult book to sell somebody on. Also, it's the fifth book in a long running, very dense series. So imagine trying to be like, yeah, okay, so the Return of the King is about this guy named Aragorn. And he, you know, we met him a while ago, but now it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also there's like a little guy named Frodo. He's actually already halfway through the mountain, you know, so it is. It's difficult to tell somebody who doesn't have the background.
- [16:02]
Leo
Then there's the main character, Samwise. I mean Duncan. I mean Samwise Gamgee. Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of great comments here and I'll even just shout out a couple. Like John Curtis says, as the books go on, the characters became or become more empathetic to me. And I think that that's true. We get to see a lot more of their internal worlds. And you look about like a character like Baron Harkonnen. We really had to do some gymnastics to feel empathetic for this character because he is the most caricature, like character that we meet in the series. A Rautha has his qualities, but again, it's like, are those complex, you know, interesting characters? Wincissia in Children of Dune? Like, did I feel any kind of sympatico with Wincissia? No, not necessarily. And the honored Matre are also. We get that they are kind of caricatures as well. They're just old, sexy ex athletes, you know, like, that's most of what they are. But they are representative of something much more subtle within humanity. It's not, it's not just that they're all like sex addicts. They're. They're coming back from the scattering as this representation of the unbridled, untamed humanity. It's very. It is, It's. I think it's more empathetic. Oh, yeah, and John Curtis. Yeah. When Miles became. Becomes a superhero as the reader, I felt it. I never felt that way with Paul or Leto to a thousand percent. If you want a clear example of frank understanding how to write to make you feel that Leito too was doing some bullshit. He was throwing the 10 ton door. He was like whipping people. He was spinning Alia over his head. But I never once felt how unstoppable he was. The same way I feel about Miles Tag who's like, when am I getting my next meal? Thinking, pontificating, thinking about philosophy as he's like snapping necks, partially decapitating people with his bare hands. It's like, man feels great. Miles Tag. What a fucking treasure that we've been introduced to.
- [18:08]
Abu
And his torture chapter, when he's being subjected to the. Not. Xene Probe. Xene Probe. It's one of the T Probe. It's one of my favorites, just because it's so well written and you really experience alongside Teg this horrific transformation that he's undergoing, and then the sort of, like, elation, surprise, and shock at the end when everything is moving in slow mo and he's unlocked his abilities. Oh, such a. Such a. Compare that chapter to the chapter where even Leto, too, is, like, putting the cilia on his skin and becoming and going through his transformation. They're both excellent chapters in their own right. But I certainly agree that the Miles one feels superior.
- [18:54]
Leo
I think with the Leto chapter, I had to reread the chapter multiple times to even really grasp what was going on. But the Miles Tag chapter, I understood the kind of blossoming, like, what is this? And I also feel like there's no better demonstration of how Mentat's minds work than to have those moments of Tegu understanding that he can separate himself from the agony, and going, well, that is just about the most pain I think a human could experience. And you're like, what? So calm. Why are you saying it like that? That's so chill. But it's. It's such an incredible chapter. And then, yeah, the moment of him going, oh, he's going to push the button. And then there's this, like. And his button. His hand was halfway there. It's like, oh, it's so good.
- [19:39]
Abu
Yeah.
- [19:40]
Leo
Excellent stuff.
- [19:41]
Abu
I do want to shout out Chris's comment here in the chat. Chris writes that chapter, the one we're talking about, Miles's transformation when his powers are awakened, is better than any Marvel superhero backstory.
- [19:52]
Leo
Yeah.
- [19:53]
Abu
So many hot takes in the chat today.
- [19:55]
Leo
That's a pretty hot take.
- [19:56]
Abu
Do you. Do you have a favorite Marvel superhero backstory? I know you're not a huge Marvel guy, I think.
- [20:02]
Leo
Yeah. Is Silver Surfer. Is he.
- [20:07]
Abu
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:08]
Leo
Is he Marvel?
- [20:08]
Abu
Yeah.
- [20:09]
Leo
I don't even. I know. It's like, I don't think he's owned by Marvel because I feel like he's part of the Fantastic Four verse.
- [20:17]
Abu
Which is Marvel, actually.
- [20:18]
Leo
Which is Marvel.
- [20:19]
Abu
Yeah.
- [20:20]
Leo
Okay. So, yeah, I've always loved the Silver Surfer, but I also thought that some of the most compelling superheroes for me were the ones that had almost too much power to fail in a direct conflict sort of situation. And so those ones who deal with the existential kind of philosophical challenges of being powerful. Like a lot of Silver Surfers earliest issues were him just like flying around the planet going, what do I do? Like what? Like he can, he can make things not exist anymore. He's very, very powerful. He's power cosmic. But it's like the idea of like, what is what, what is ethics, what is philosophy? Like, what? I don't know. Yeah, I really liked that. And I think sometimes you have characters like Batman, who's excellent, but he's. He's like beating up guys who, who are like stealing food to feed their families. And he's like, I broke both your legs. Gotham safer because you're in a wheelchair for the rest of your life. And it's like, what the fuck, man? His kids are hungry. You're a billionaire. Like, solve the problems. So I like Silver Surfer quite a bit for that reason. What about you? Do you have any top Marvel?
- [21:27]
Abu
I am a Marvel superhero person and I. I'm extremely biased towards Spidey. So I've always enjoyed. I mean, it's cliche now, the Uncle Ben story, but like, come on. It's also powerful stuff. And I've always been deeply attached to Spidey.
- [21:46]
Leo
I do like the, the whole arc with Spider man where I think it was Ultimate Spider man or something like that where someone, someone can't remember who gets control. Octavius maybe gets Doc. Doc gets his body and then punches Scorpion's jaw off. Do you remember that?
- [22:03]
Abu
I don't remember this.
- [22:06]
Leo
I think of this as almost core to Spider Man's character because this other guy gets Spider Man's body. Scorpion is like fucking with who he thinks is Spider Man. And he's like, oh my God, this fucking guy. So he punches him and it takes his jaw clean off.
- [22:22]
Abu
Wow.
- [22:22]
Leo
And the guy realizes for all of these years that I've been fighting Spider Man. He's been pulling.
- [22:27]
Abu
He's been holding back.
- [22:28]
Leo
Yes, he's been holding back. And that, that revelation that the entire time you're reading Spider man and he's fighting people, he's like trying to calibrate his strength so that he's not hurting anyone is really powerful. And I'm like, now I think about that as wrapped up within Spider Man's character is, that's great. He's always holding back. And that's really powerful.
- [22:50]
Abu
That's right. Spiders are powerful. That's why I'm terrified of them.
- [22:53]
Leo
He's really fucking strong.
- [22:56]
Abu
All right, how about we hit a pre prepared question here? There's Some great ones. I actually want to. Let's start with this one pulled from Reddit that Luna, our excellent producer, pulled from Reddit for us. I think since we're kind of already talking about Miles, this Reddit question asks, would you consider Miles tag a Kwisatz Haderach?
- [23:19]
Leo
Yeah, it's an interesting question for sure. I'm interested to hear your thoughts first.
- [23:24]
Abu
Okay. No, I don't think so. I don't think he falls into the template of a Kwisatz Haderach. He has abilities that are similar, but certainly not as powerful as something that ATO2 had or Paul had or Ganymeda or even Alia. It's not the same set of abilities. He doesn't have access to his other memories, for example, like Leto did, because he was preborn. He can't exactly see into the future. What he's experiencing is like a second vision that's kind of showing him and is like a second gut instinct that helps him make decisions and perhaps see like the more immediate outcomes of things. But he's not seeing like extinction level events 10,000 years in the future like Paul and Leite. So by that definition of what a Kwisatz Haderach is, I do not think Miles Tegg is a Kwisatz Haderach. And I think he falls in a completely separate category from Paul and Plato too. What about you?
- [24:27]
Leo
I think first, first I think there's a language thing to get over is like, how do we define Kwisatz Haderach? And I think in some ways Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be the one who shortens the way. It's the person who can see the future. It's this Bene Gesserit idea going back to the Hebrew word. But I do think that eventually the word kind of just means like, you are a person around which the universe pivots for a moment and you are someone who like, shapes the future by your actions. And I think by that definition, this sort of more amorphous Duncan Idaho fits into that category through moments in his life. Certainly Paul Leto and then someone like Miles Tag, who single handedly basically saves the Bene Gesserit in Heretics of Dune and defeats the honor Matre in a way in Heretics of Dune. Like his actions in Heretics of Dune make him that important historically. But I do think that if we're saying like, yeah, does he have the 10,000 year view that Paul had and tried to ignore for the sake of Shani, that Leto definitely had and basically engaged with of Course the answer is no. But I do wonder. He only got his powers like three business days before he died. We saw him with the second vision, right?
- [25:45]
Abu
That's true.
- [25:45]
Leo
We see that he suddenly can see no ships. And he's like, oh shit, I can see no ships. That's wild. And then by the time he's on arrakis, presumably like 12 hours before he dies, he's like, I know the worm's gonna be here. Which is a little different than knowing the next immediate moment or knowing the kind of like path of least resistance kind of gut driven. I wonder if we gave him another week or two to like continue to awaken. I wonder if he would have started knowing much more about the next 30,000 years, in the next 3,000 years. It's, it's certainly possible. Again, the dude fucking woke up two days ago. He ate six meals, he killed 700 people, he stole a no ship, which is crazy.
- [26:30]
Abu
Doesn't have time to process any of this. It's all happening in real time.
- [26:34]
Leo
That's a really cool, like six bowls of soup. It's like, you know, give the guy a break. Yeah, he's, and he's so old, he's got so much, you know, we, we see someone like, like, like Odrade is also a generational talent when her ability to observe and process. She gets all of Taraza's memories. And even she, multiple days later is like, oh, I'm still sorting through this stuff, just getting a handle on all the information I have. Teg's like, no one's ever had this power before. Just like out here winging it. So I'm, you know, I'm like, I, I think that by the standard definition of Kwis has Haderach now. I don't think he is at the time that he dies, tbd. If he would have grown into those powers a few days later kind of thing. And then I think if we redefine Kwisatz Haderach as one of these individuals around whom the entire universe pivots for a moment. I think he makes the cut.
- [27:31]
Abu
Yeah. Classic art degree answer. I love it. Let's pause and reconsider semantics.
- [27:37]
Leo
Who told you I agreed in major tonight.
- [27:39]
Abu
What do we mean by why?
- [27:41]
Leo
Yeah, or you could be the Jordan Peterson. He's like, well, it depends on how you define wood. And it's like, shut up. Shut the fuck.
- [27:53]
Abu
Chris has a quick follow up thought here that I wanted to shout out. His foresight power is very cool though. Agreed. Chris writes he can tell if someone is A good guy or a bad guy, right? Definitely not prescience. I don't think that is necessarily a power set. I don't think he can understand a person's intentions because of his power. What he can't see is what will happen in the next few moments of the future and thus can understand what this person could do in the next few moments. So, for example, when he meets the animatre, he understands there's danger present here, but no immediate threat. So that is his way of saying this person is dangerous because she is an enemy of mine. And I'm aware of that. But my second vision is not showing me any like, as things have played out, there's no, like, knives being drawn yet in my other vision yet.
- [28:46]
Leo
So what I'd say about your comment, Chris, is that, like, I think we are seeing Tag fail to name it as prescience. So we are seeing his powers through his perception. He is not perceiving himself as suddenly being prescient. He is going, I don't. I think this person has concealed danger. But I'm not worried about the next few moments. And no one's going, so, Tag, what would you call that? Tag? How would you define this general thing? So I think we're seeing that idea of, like, telling if someone's a good guy or a bad guy. I think that's how Teg would describe it. He's like, I know if they're going to be violent in the next moment or two. I don't think we're seeing Ted going, ah, I'm prescient because I'm an Atreides. You know, he's not naming it the way it is, but I do think if we look at the parallels between him and Paul and Dune Messiah, I think what he has is a brand of prescience, is a. Is a brand of that sort of like Kwisatz Haderach awareness of just the world. Same way that Paul could see the highliners floating above Arrakis. Teg can see the no ships in the space port, whatever. So very similar and I think probably is prescience.
- [29:57]
Abu
Yeah, I agree. Similar to prescience, for sure. Madison also commented on the Bene Gesserit. Madison writes, the Bene Gesserit have been breeding excellence for eons now. Nice to see it finally take fruit. And Tag and Odrade Techno Dre are.
- [30:12]
Leo
Some of the best characters ever. I think you could definitely convince me that what the Bene Gesserit have been breeding for is excellently written characters who are very Fun to root for.
- [30:21]
Abu
That's right. And hot as.
- [30:23]
Leo
So fucking hot. And tall and old and tall and hot. Oh, God. Bangable.
- [30:30]
Abu
Imagine Miles Tag's hinge profile.
- [30:33]
Leo
Oh, it would just be a picture of his collarbone because the camera can't get that high.
- [30:39]
Abu
Right. Regali is like fucking seven foot taller.
- [30:42]
Leo
He's like six, ten. Yeah, he's crazy. He's almost a foot taller than me. And I'm tall. That's crazy.
- [30:47]
Abu
But Madison makes a great point. We are seeing the end game of literally tens of thousands of Bene Gesserit. Tens of thousands of years of Bene Gesserit breeding. And the result is these incredibly powerful people like Odrade and Tag.
- [31:04]
Leo
You know what's embarrassing, Lucilla? Also a byproduct of tens of thousands of years of breeding.
- [31:08]
Abu
That's right.
- [31:09]
Leo
So. So shakeable, so baffled at every mom. You know, even Brismoli. Yeah, even Brismoli is like, come on, fucking. Keep up, Lucilla. Jesus.
- [31:22]
Abu
We have a question from Chris here about Leto 2. Do you think Leto II underestimates or takes the Bene Gesserit for granted? Ooh.
- [31:32]
Leo
So I. I think we have to do an episode at some point about the Bene Gesserit as the number one threat for humanity. And part of that is based on this book, because it is genuinely a revelation to see Odrade in the spice chamber, seeing Leto's words at Dar es Ballat. Another one of the best chapters in this book, I think so.
- [31:53]
Abu
Good.
- [31:54]
Leo
Noble purpose. You have forsaken your noble purpose because in that declaration, Leto calls out the Bene Gesserit. You saw the need for the Golden Path and you didn't take it. And so that poses the question, if you know that something has to be done to save all of humanity and you do not do it, you know, this is like the ultimate trolley problem. You have forsaken humanity, and by your inaction, you have caused the extinction level events that Leto single handedly had to avoid. So I think he values the Bene Gesserit. He didn't get rid of them, for instance. He definitely, like, hobbled them during his rule. But I think he recognizes they need to be around and they have a role in preserving the Golden Path, and that's why they are there. That being said, I think the Bene Gesserit, as much as I love the Order, I think they are weirdly shortsighted in a lot of their planning. And I don't think they get enough shit thrown at them for the disregard of the need of the Golden Path, which we know is factual as of this book, as of heretics of Dune.
- [32:59]
Abu
Yeah.
- [32:59]
Leo
What about you? What kind of thoughts bubble to the surface with this sort of consideration?
- [33:03]
Abu
I think Leto understood that the Golden Path needed to be continuously pruned and monitored and watched over. And he could do his 3500 year rule and prep humanity for a future without extinction. But someone would have to, you know, someone would have to refresh those lessons. You can't go on summer break and come back and expect all the kids to remember everything they've ever learned in the previous year.
- [33:35]
Leo
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Abu
And I think Leto understood that of the groups in the Imperium, of the rest of humanity, the Bene Gesserit were the most equipped to carry on, I guess, like trimming the hedges of humanity's future. And I think a lot of the messaging that O'Drade comes across in this book, that's some of the subtext here, right? Bene Gesserit. You have been on this. You have had your own purpose. Now I beseech you to find a more noble purpose. To continue pruning my Golden Path, to continue protecting the future of humanity. Like you're saying you had foreseen the dangers and you did nothing. Now I'm telling you, do something.
- [34:22]
Leo
Yeah.
- [34:23]
Abu
You know, and so I don't think he underestimated them in any way, but I also don't think he. I don't think he took them for granted. I think he recognized, besides me, the literal God worm, Kwisatz Haderach. The next best people in line to handle this situation are the Bene Gesserit. So let me prep them as best I can. And that's what o' Draid is coming across in this book.
- [34:45]
Leo
It's also so interesting because in this book we get so many characters going. Are we still under the tyrant's thumb? Are we still dancing his tune? And one of the. I think one of the best chapters in the book is Odrade realizing in some ways, yes, he left this message as a, like, catalyzing, you know, and as we talk about Taraz's plans, this will probably be one of those moments that pivots the plan and says, actually, you need to take some bold choices and you need to make some, you know, risk it all, because if you don't, humanity is extinct. And along those lines, John Curtis's comment. I think to understand the Dune universe, you have to challenge your premises about it. Was the Golden Path the right one? Should humanity have been left alone? And I Think there is. I've had the kind of quiet and really uncomfortable suspicion that it'd be interesting to look at Leto II as being wrong. To look at Leto II as actually being kind of high on his own Kool Aid and just megalomaniac. And he's kind of spun up his own story and his own mythos and he believes it too much. And you know, we see a little. We see shades of that in God Emperor of Dune. Like, does Cyanoke really need to be this self congratulatory? He's got Muadib's Glock that he's like waving around the room. Do you need to. You need to be doing that? So I do think it's worth at some point maybe doing an episode where we just really skeptically dig into like Devil's advocate. Let's look at Leto as the ultimate villain to humanity. But if we take Leto at his word, and I don't see any reason that we wouldn't, considering he is basically like an advocate for Frank the author's intentions throughout the book, I think we have to acknowledge Leto single handedly saved humanity multiple times before God Emperor of Dune, and then set the path for humanity to dodge the additional existential threats where even the Honored Matre coming into back to the kind of core universe, they are risking it all, they are jeopardizing it all in a way that is very real. And regardless of like Leito's bullshit that he's spewing every time he gets on his little ted TED talk stage, I think the threats that he's talking about are, are very real. So, yeah, I think if not for him, you know, I think that's. We'd probably be gone if we take him for his word.
- [37:11]
Abu
I agree. Yeah. I think it is a fun thought exercise to question Leto's Golden Path and to. I certainly myself have asked, like, remember during our God Emperor of Dune book clubs, I was like, did Leto need to do this or did he have to be so mean about it? You know, could you not like, teach us your lesson nicely, Leto? Like, do you have to oppress us for 3,000 years? It's certainly, I think, worthwhile to question the Golden Path. But I will say, as the premise, as the main premise of the story, I don't think it bears much fruit to analyze the story through the lens of the Golden Path being incorrect because it's positioned as correct and it has been positioned as thus for many books. Now. The Lord of the Rings is on the mind today for some reason. But you know, I don't think there's much fruit in trying to read Lord of the Rings. Assuming the One Ring isn't what it is, isn't Sauron's one Ring. That would subjugate all of.
- [38:12]
Leo
Oh my God, what a weird consideration. What if it's just a fucking ring?
- [38:16]
Abu
Like, what if it's just a normal ass ring that does nothing? Like that's a fun what if. I think to ask, but the entire premise of the book hinges on the One Ring being the One Ring. And so to question it, I think, risks misinterpreting the author's intent. I think Frank and Leto intended for the Golden Path to be the truth and for us to interpret the rest of the book through that lens. And certainly to question methods. Right. Certainly to have heretical thoughts. That's what a lot of this book is about.
- [38:47]
Leo
Yeah. Oh, great point.
- [38:48]
Abu
I would argue the Golden Path is true and we have to take it as such to understand their books.
- [38:54]
Leo
Yeah, you make a good point. Because if we look at Frank as the author, we can use authorial intent and we can glean a lot from his interviews where he very clearly, strongly felt that like a machine attitude of overdependence and overreliance and falling back on these old patterns of stagnation and all these things he very clearly believed.
- [39:13]
Abu
Yeah.
- [39:14]
Leo
And he very clearly was writing these books as an intended warning for his readers to say, okay, and then a warning against charismatic leaders. Sure, but would we say God? Emperor Leto was a charismatic leader? He was a leader, but he was a self described tyrant who everybody fucking hated. So, you know, people worshiped him for sure. He had many wives, as it turns out. But it's like, I do think that if you look at Frank's broader intentions as an author, the themes of Dune, it makes the most sense to say, yes, the Golden Path is real and it is the only way that humanity doesn't fall into stagnation and thus extinction. Extinction eventually. And how do you do that? Well, you force them into stagnation so that they never accept stagnation again. And that is trusting God Emperor Leto to be who he claims to be.
- [40:05]
Abu
Yeah, I agree. But again, I think a really excellent thought exercise. And it leads to conversations like this. Right. And I think so much of this book, my personal takeaway of heretics of Dune is ask the hard questions, ask the uncomfortable questions, ask the heretical questions. That doesn't mean you believe the heretical thoughts, but there is value in simply asking them. And there is danger in dogma. And stagnation. And in assuming you already have all the answers or that you already understand all the history of something, that's the core message of the book that I take away. And I feel like it's a very powerful one for me. It's a life changing one. Right. It's a perspective that genuinely shifts my worldview, which is a powerful thing to say about a book.
- [40:53]
Leo
I mean, looking back on the last 17, 18 episodes that we did about this book, the number of times we were talking about other things. Right. I shared the perspective of being raised in Berkeley, California. There were a lot of liberal, accepting, compassionate people around me, but who their liberalism and their ability to be compassionate toward people basically froze in the 90s and 2000s. And now those people who are so staunch as advocates for like gay and bisexual people are like, what, what is trans? Why do I have to use the right pronouns for you? And it's like fucking, compassion and love is not something you arrive at and then never have to work on again.
- [41:30]
Abu
Right.
- [41:30]
Leo
This is an ongoing thing. You just have to continue to work and be humble and recognize that you're not going to have all the answers. And that didn't, that doesn't hamstring you and being a compassionate, good person. So. And that is something I get from this book and from 100%. It's like that idea of we figured it out, we got all the answers back in the 70s and we're not going to think about it anymore. It's like, God damn it, no shit's different now. It's so different.
- [41:57]
Abu
Right?
- [41:57]
Leo
So I'm. Yeah, I, I think it's so valuable.
- [42:01]
Abu
Make the Benny Jesuit great again. Okay. There's a really excellent Discord question. Moving on from Leito 2. I really want to make sure we hit on this because Normal Senva, one of our patrons in Discord, dropped a really amazing question. It's too long to fit here on screen, so I'm actually just going to pull up Discord and read it. But I did put the main thrust of the question on screen. Okay. So Normal Senva wrote in Discord, we're placed at a time where melange can be synthetically produced and I assume has flooded the old empire's market. Lifetimes are extended. Low level prescience, like using the tarot is present in more people. Arrakis turns into the Vatican, essentially. That's a great analogy. The Benny Tleilax grows fat with influence. The Axians aren't bothering to hide their illegal tech anymore. How do you think that made the Old Empire especially vulnerable to the Honored Matres influence. Would their campaign have worked if melange was made only by the worms? Oh, a very interesting question to consider and something I genuinely had not considered.
- [43:19]
Leo
With the Honored Matres campaign.
- [43:23]
Abu
Like how quickly the Honored Matres have infiltrated the old Empire and gotten a foothold and presented this existential danger.
- [43:30]
Leo
Yeah.
- [43:30]
Abu
I guess normal Sen was getting at the idea that a lot of the old power structures and status quo that we know from the first three books has been utterly shattered and changed.
- [43:40]
Leo
Yeah.
- [43:41]
Abu
Did that make the Old Empire weaker in the face of a threat like this?
- [43:45]
Leo
Yeah. Chris's comment. That is a complex question, and much of it is over my head. You know what? Fucking same. But let's try. Yeah, let's. Let's think about it. I do think it's interesting because you're right. The Ixians, we have so many of the people basically going back on these lessons hard learned by humanity over thousands of years that led to the Butlerian Jihad. And I'm sorry, Brian, but it didn't have crazy, pew, pew, space laser robot battles, but it had men controlling other men with technology. And now we have people kind of falling into some of those same problems, some of those same weaknesses. And I think that if Arrakis were the only source of spice still, that would have for sure made it easier for the Honor Matre to track down this source of spice and basically just immediately win. Because if they control spice, they control the universe, and they are, as a blunt force, basically unstoppable. It seems like right now in heretics, save for tech, save for only Teg, and even he ended up on the planet that became a hard mess.
- [44:56]
Abu
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Leo
So I think, like, if Arrakis were the only source of spice. Yes. The Honor Matre would have very, very quickly taken over the Imperium in a way that just would not be challengeable. Yeah. It's interesting, though, the other. It's like, I think there's this interesting balance, balancing act between the idea of the Honored Matre as a sort of wild element outside of the control and the refra refrain and the moderation that has been learned by this old Imperium and what that does to the status quo. But I don't know that I'm necessarily settling on anyone one solid thought. What do you think?
- [45:37]
Abu
Yeah, I do think this is a very complex question, and I certainly don't have the most nuanced answer just off the dome, but I'll share my first instinct. And I think the Old Empire as We are introduced to it in Heretics of Dune, I think has slid backward quite a bit. You know, we've witnessed some stagnation, like Leto has set up an explosion of the scattering, and we're seeing the results of many of those things. But not all of his lessons stuck. Right. Consider the quote unquote Vatican. The Church of the Holy. What was it?
- [46:15]
Leo
Divided God.
- [46:16]
Abu
The Church of. Thank you. The Church of the Divided God on Arrakis is literally doing shit that Leto too, and to some extent Paul, also spent years, decades, thousands of years railing against. Don't do this. The lesson here is that I, the tyrant, should not be worshiped. And yet here they are repeating many of those mistakes and being utterly corrupt about it, which is Frank's commentary on institutions like this. And so I think we're seeing sort of a slide back of humanity. And I do think that puts them in a vulnerable position when faced with an existential threat. And thus again, the necessary. And thus again the need for constant vigilance and pruning of the Golden Path. There will be many existential dangers for humanity, and we must always stay on top of our toes to be prepared to face them and to be prepared to combat things like corruption, greed, institutional power, charismatic leaders, stagnation, all of the warnings that have been present in the book. So this raises some really interesting thoughts for me that I hadn't considered in the book. I do think the Empire is in a weaker position here than it was during Paul's rule. For example, I think Paul could have fought off the 100 matre more directly or at least put up a better fight.
- [47:46]
Leo
Maybe.
- [47:47]
Abu
But again, that's such a hypothetical. That's tough.
- [47:50]
Leo
And also again, with Arrakis as the only source of spice, it's more defensible, I guess. But then again, you're loggered up, as Balanda would very annoyingly. Ray keeps raising her hand in this fucking, you know, zoom call. Like Blonda. We get it. I think same thing with, like the Ixians. If spice continues to be the only way that anyone can travel faster than light without risking life and limb, you do not have the flexibility of being able to travel. Blink of an eye. No ships like all of that stuff.
- [48:25]
Abu
Yeah, that's true.
- [48:25]
Leo
Makes humanity easier to get, escape harder to hunt down. I do think in some ways that's true. The way we've slid and slid back, in some ways have, have diversified humanity's like weak points, but which makes them, makes us stronger almost by definition. You know, it's like it's we're not a monoculture crop anymore where there's only one thing. And man, if we, if we have a virus that attacks all our bananas, we just don't have bananas ever again. Fuck.
- [48:52]
Abu
Right?
- [48:52]
Leo
You know, that's. That's not a good place to be. But you're right that we have like the Church of the Divided God, which is like. I mean, you don't even have Leto doing this on purpose. This is just humans doing this. And they're. They're like tiny minded games. So I don't know. It is a man. But calling Arrakis the Vatican is such a fucking great call. That's so good.
- [49:17]
Abu
Okay, I want to move on and touch on two questions here that are. That are kind of related. I think we can just talk about them together, about Duncan. And I believe both of these are also from Discord. So, first up, we have Herman wrote in Discord, one of our patrons, Herman Hinman. Oh, sorry, Hinman. Given Duncan is so critical to the Benny Tleilax plans, why not simultaneously grow a bunch of them and disperse them, as in grow a bunch of Duncan Golas and put them everywhere to combat the Honored mod trade or whatever. Or to combat the Sisterhood. And then related to that, I think not a robot AI also wrote in Discord, why is Duncan the only person in the universe with the training to counter the 100 matre? You'd think there would be half a dozen factions in the Scattering who would know how to do it.
- [50:05]
Leo
Yeah.
- [50:06]
Abu
So I guess, generally, I think we can turn towards Duncan as a. As an interesting character here.
- [50:10]
Leo
Yeah. I think it's worth noting that I don't get the sense from WAF's earliest chapters in this book that the Tleilaxu was necessarily, like, gearing up to hard counter the Honored Matre intentionally. I think they were kind of like, oh, look, people are back from the Scattering. That's kind of fun. I think they've been targeting the Bene Gesserit this whole time. And that's why certainly the second, they can train Duncan to have Honored Matre abilities that will counteract whatever imprinter that they know is going to happen. You know, they expect him. They know he's going to be imprinted by someone like Lucilla, so they've conditioned him to be the, like, kill switch so that suddenly he dissolves the Bene Gesserit from within.
- [50:49]
Abu
Yeah.
- [50:50]
Leo
And that's the ultimate kill shot targeting the Bene Gesserit still. Because I think they see the Bene Gesserit as this ultimate enemy within the Imperium. So I think for that reason they needed to kind of like work within the Bene Gesserit's contracts and deals. The Bene Gesserit says, hey, we need a Duncan Gola. And they go, okay, we've grown you one here. And I think that is important. I think it's important that they're only doing one at a time for that reason. And if they had like 15 Duncans, the Bene Gesserit aren't going to try to imprint a random Duncan who walks in from the street and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what the fuck? Where did you come from? Who ordered you?
- [51:27]
Abu
Right?
- [51:27]
Leo
So I think they have to operate within this kind of facade of what the Bene Gesserit want, what they want. And kind of pretending plans within plans, that they're doing everything by the book to the letter. No, no, this one, we didn't fuck with this one at all. He's totally safe. And then you imprint him. And they're like, fuck. And then they kill him. And you're like, why did you kill him? And you're like, no reason. You need another. It's like they're playing this cat and mouse game. And I think that's very important to keep in mind, at least for this first piece of the question. What do you think? Any. Any additional reasons? They're not just.
- [52:01]
Abu
No, I agree. I think you covered it.
- [52:03]
Leo
Style. 12 pack of Duncan's for 19. And you're like, that can't be. This is. This is turning a profit.
- [52:10]
Abu
Just mass produced. Duncan Golas.
- [52:12]
Leo
Kirkland brand Duncan.
- [52:15]
Abu
Yeah. Gosh, again, that's an interesting what if, you know, what if they did that? What if there were like 40 Duncan Golas running around the empire? Like, fascinating to consider, but I think you basically covered it. It's a cat and mouse game. It's much more subtle than brute forcing. Duncan Golas, who can counter Bene Gesserit and coincidentally can counter Honored Madre out there and hoping for the best. I think the Benny Tleilaks are playing a much more subtle and careful game because they too don't want to become targets. Right. And you don't want to risk becoming the target of the Bene Gesserit who decide it's not worth putting up with you anymore. And it's a song and dance. It would be too risky, I think, to reproduce that many Duncans out there and just imagine like the. My God, the. The explosion in the population with how much fucking would be Taking place in the end. So many illegitimate Duncan children running around everywhere.
- [53:16]
Leo
So many Idahoes. Yeah, I do the. I mean the rock gyms, the rock climbing gyms though would be like real, real hot to hang out in. Just orgasm. Everyone, we need a mop. Mop at the rock climbing gym. I do think also Duncan in particular, even before you awaken his memories, I think his personality is such that if he knows he's a Gola, I think he rebels against it and he doesn't like that he's a Gola. And if you had Duncans encountering one another, I don't think that would go well. I think if a Duncan saw another Duncan and was like, we're both goas. Fuck that. I'm killing you. I'm the real. I don't think. I don't think this is the sort of person you could make 10 of and hope that they all work together. Yeah, I think they would immediately become enemies and it would not be good for your planning. What was the second piece of the question? The second question?
- [54:07]
Abu
The second part of the question was why Duncan specifically can counter the Honored Matre? Like who. Why hasn't anyone else figured out how to counter their sex powers?
- [54:18]
Leo
Yeah, you think that they would be so I think part of this is just that the Tleilaxu are in a particularly powerful place with their disposable face dancers. Oh, you can send a face.
- [54:30]
Abu
Sorry, before you continue, I have to correct. I copied the wrong. I want to give credit. Eli asked this question. Robot AI, Sure.
- [54:41]
Leo
I think it's worth noting that most of the Imperium doesn't know how the Honored Matre work. So when we talk about how to counter them, almost no one knows their abilities except for the Bene Gesserit, who have the most information gathering people of anybody in the universe. They are just barely understanding the sexual prowess of the Honored Matre at the time that we're seeing in heretics. The Tleilaxu have a lot more information clearly about the Honor Matres methods. So they're pretty much the only ones in a place to create a counter method. And even they. Again, I don't think they see the Honor Matre as a definite enemy. I think they're seeing them as this sort of like, okay, you're here, but we're not really worried about you. Yet again, WAF has a meeting with the Honored Matre, kind of to ascertain and assess what's going on with you. Like what's do we need to worry about you? Can you tell our face dancers? And. Oh, you can't tell our face dancers. All right, then you're just another, like, set another piece on the chess board. And it's really the Bene Gesserit who can tell the new Honored Fuck. It's really the Bene Gesserit who can tell the new face dancers one from the other. So they are the threat, and they're the ones that the Tleilax who are focused on. So, again, I think the Tleilaxu are not worried about countering the Honored Matre because the Honored Materi are just another means to getting rid of the Bene Gesserit. And the Tleilaxu, in their hubris, are like, we're. We're not in danger. This is not going to bother us. Meanwhile, WAF is just on Arrakis when it gets nuked. It's like, well, oops, maybe you should have taken the Honor Matre more seriously. Maybe. Yeah, but I think that's. That's the thought that comes to mind. No one else is in a position to create a counter method, only the Tleilaxu and the Tleilax, who are singularly focused on fighting the Bene Gesserit. And they see the Honor Matre as a. As almost an unintentional ally in the fight against the Bene Gesserit.
- [56:41]
Abu
Right.
- [56:41]
Leo
That's my thought.
- [56:42]
Abu
I agree. I agree. I think, honestly, Duncan's abilities was a roll of the die against the Honored Matre. I don't think the Bene Gesserit nor the Tleilaxu knew that Duncan's powers would actually work against the Honored Matre. That, I think, was part of the Gambler on both of their parts. And like you're stating, for the Tleilaxu, Duncan was more of a counter attack to the Bene Gesserit, to imprinters like Lucilla. He was programmed to kill Lucilla, and he just so happened to sleep with Merbella first. And that programming kicked in. But because he's Duncan, he was able to overpower it and stop himself from killing Mirbella. Or the programming, like, short circuited because it wasn't Lucilla specifically. It was a different type of this ability, this sexual ability. And so I think there's a lot of unknowns with his powers, actually, for both the Benelax and the Bene Gesserit, they're kind of like, whoa. Oh, shit. That wasn't necessarily the outcome we expected. And I think it's all part of this, like, huge gamble against the existential threat of the Honored Matre. And it's why it makes Duncan so absolutely critical to their plans now and why they have to keep him under lock and key in the NO ship.
- [58:06]
Leo
It does bring to mind the epigraph about the, like, people not necessarily understanding these things before they're utilizing them. The smiths of old, making tin and copper and these alloys without necessarily knowing the molecules. The Benny Playlax don't understand what they're playing with with Duncan, but they don't. That doesn't bother them. They didn't know Hate. The first Duncan to awaken. They didn't know that was possible until Hate. And then they're like, oh, it worked. You know, Scytale was like, whoa. Whoa. Holy. Yeah, we have a whole new thing we can do now. That's crazy. True. You know, they are. They are, yes. Ending everything constantly. They've got no plan. It's kind of fun in its own, you know, silly way.
- [58:47]
Abu
Yeah. I will say, though, I think the second part of this question is interesting to me, because doesn't Lucilla meet that older woman, who's not an old woman, who's actually kind of a sexy young babe or something, who says something. I can't remember the exact quote, but says something like, oh, our job is to combat the Honored Matre.
- [59:09]
Leo
Yeah. She hunts.
- [59:10]
Abu
We hunt Honored Madre. Yes. Right. And so I don't think that Duncan is the only person in the whole universe that can counter an Honored Madre. I think he just has a very powerful ability to counter specifically their sexual prowess.
- [59:24]
Leo
Yeah.
- [59:25]
Abu
But I think within the Scattering, within the group, other groups and factions out there, there are people who can't just, like, fight them and put up a resistance against them. I just think in the Old Empire, this is such a new, unknown alien force that we don't have the shield against. Right. They're a new type of sword, and we're floundering with our old shields that don't work against this. Duncan is maybe the first shield that did work against the Honored Matre in the Old Empire.
- [59:51]
Leo
So I think to that point, there's that whole conversation about the Honor Matre. Don't understand the nature of the battle they're waging, because every force calls upon creates counter forces. And in the Scattering, they have counter forces that have people like that old woman who hunt them. And there are other things that, like, why are they back?
- [60:11]
Abu
It's hinted that they're running from something. The whole reason they even came back. Yeah.
- [60:14]
Leo
They're running from Something. So the other thing is, they get back to this galaxy, they're sending out their honor matre willy nilly. One of the no ships goes missing, whatever. Oops. And now you have the Tleilaxu armed with, oh, this is how you do the sexual imprinting and all this crazy stuff. Counter forces. It's all like force and counter force. So. That's a great point.
- [60:36]
Abu
Great question. Thank you, Eli. Correction. Eli asked that question and a great one. Great discussion.
- [60:43]
Leo
Someone says, what brand, type of pants wear? I was going to say Dunkaroos. Dunk Dunk. Dunkaroos. Dungaroos. Dunkaroos. Dunkaroos, Idaho's. I just wanted to make that joke.
- [60:56]
Abu
Nice. Chris responded with for sure. Duncan wears overalls so sexy. Yeah, Eli says he wears the brand that's tight around the crotch. Absolutely.
- [61:07]
Leo
Really tight. Really just full outline all day long, you know.
- [61:13]
Abu
Okay, we're almost at time here, so maybe we can just hit on a final couple of comments. I highlighted this one from Jalen earlier that we missed that I want to circle back to kind of sticking with our conversation on Duncan Idaho. Jalen asks, do you think Frank intended him, as in Duncan, to end the series as the unlikely main character of the saga, or would his awakening subvert Frank Leto's message about the dangers of charismatic, sexy leaders? I guess, generally, what do we think Frank Herbert's intention with Duncan Idaho was, especially in these Latin books?
- [61:51]
Leo
I think in the early books it was kind of an unexpected. Everyone loved Duncan in Messiah and he was like, sick. I'll keep bringing him back. So I don't know that he necessarily had a plan that early regarding Duncan as the secret main character of Dune, but certainly into God Emperor of Dune and now Heretics. Duncan does seem to be this sort of like quintessential character. But I think it's important to note that in God Emperor of Dune, he wasn't cast as actually being very charismatic, right? Like Moneo is like, you're an old fashioned model, you piece of shit. And he's being petulant, he's being childish, he helps Siona with her revolution. But ultimately he is. And he has his like funny memeable moments of rock climbing so well that Naela orgasms. But he's not necessarily the like charismatic great guy that we all are rooting for, especially in God Emperor of Dune. So now we meet him in Heretics, and he does seem to be a new brand of Duncan that we've never met before. It is hard to fully address this question without talking about chapter house stuff. So I think keeping our conversation to just heretics, it is clear that Duncan is a singularly important character. But I don't know that he has been characterized over the many books as the charismatic leader we should be careful of.
- [63:07]
Abu
Agreed.
- [63:08]
Leo
He is a flawed human who is operating on a basis of loyalty and strong principles, who is very good at fucking and really great at rock climbing. But otherwise, I think it's like he has a sort of like, primal humanness to him. He is the one who is not so careful with his plans within plans. He's just getting drunk on spice beer, coming home late at night, going, jessica, say you're the wit's betrayer. And everyone's like, whoa, are you allowed to say just upfront and out loud, I think he is. He is like the flawed man archetype who's just there representing quintessential humanity in its kind of raw, not always pretty way. And then he, you know. Yeah, at tomatoes elegantly here. Prototypical man living in the now, the right now. Not the past, not the future. That is, I think, one of the more consistent qualities of Duncan Idaho. That's what makes him a good fighter. That's what makes him so good in the moment of. He sees the 20 Duncan Idaho face dancers, and he's like, all right, I'll get naked. And everyone's like, what the fuck? Why? How did you come up with that? So were you waiting to get naked? Duncan, he's like, baby. Who's to say? Check it out, though. You know, he's constantly in the now in a very impressive way. So I think. I think that is. That's something. It's like Leto kept bringing him back to ground himself in that old imperium mentality, even as the whole universe changed to march to Leto's drum. Duncan was the element, was the catalyst that could always ground Leto in. How far have I come? How much of my humanity have I lost?
- [64:54]
Abu
Yeah.
- [64:55]
Leo
So I think he's an important character. I think he is the main character, but I do not think that he is the charismatic leader that Frank is warning about in the first couple of books. That's my long winded. Basically.
- [65:05]
Abu
Yes. I think you're spot on. I agree. And I think you've nailed the in universe explanation for it. I want to answer this question from an out of universe perspective, from a different side. I think. I know a lot of people contend that Duncan is actually the main character of the Dune saga. I disagree. I don't think he is the main character of the Dune saga in the literary sense, as in, he is the protagonist. I think each book has a clear protagonist. We have Paul, and then we have Leto, and then we have Miles and o'. Draid. I think, again, stepping out of the lore from a writing perspective, from Frank as a writer, thinking of this character and why he would continue to revisit him to your point, to Madison's point, he is the normal person, prototypical man, average guy stand in for the reader. He is the character that goes into the story and goes, what the fuck is going on? Just same as the reader going into God, Emperor of Dune, and going, what the fuck is going on?
- [66:07]
Leo
Whoa. We have gone into the future.
- [66:09]
Abu
Where am I and when am I?
- [66:11]
Leo
He's the stranger who gets to observe for the first time.
- [66:14]
Abu
Exactly. He's the audience stand in. He's the character through which we, the reader, can identify where we are, when we are, what's happening? Who are these people? What's the context of the story? And through him, we get to ask some pointed questions that lead to pointed conversations with Leto, to the God Emperor, or with Miles. Tag right in the note. We spent a lot of time in this book with Miles Teg and Duncan Idaho talking and that expanding our understanding of Miles Teg, the Bashar of the Bene Gesserit plans of what's at play in this universe. And so I think he. Duncan, is the literary tool through which Frank grounds these stories for the reader. And we can see much of our own confusion and questions through the eyes of Duncan Idaho in these books.
- [67:08]
Leo
Yeah, he's Watson to Sherlock, right? You need someone for Sherlock to explain everything to because Sherlock's such an internal character. He's Shaggy and Scooby going, what do you mean? How'd you figure it out? It was the gardener. And then Fred and Wilma and Daphne get to explain this stuff. And Takako, by the way, says Abu. That was my thesis for graduation essay from Japanese school.
- [67:33]
Abu
Oh, my God.
- [67:33]
Leo
That Duncan Idaho is the reader Stand in. I wrote that when I was 18 and early in. That's so fucking sick. Takako, you're so goddamn cool.
- [67:42]
Abu
Wow, Taka, that's amazing. And sorry for plagiarizing your idea, I guess.
- [67:48]
Leo
Yeah. You didn't even. You read her paper in. In. In 88.
- [67:52]
Abu
That's right.
- [67:52]
Leo
And you plagiarized it.
- [67:54]
Abu
You know what? A plus, Takako. Takako also says that she read the books in Japanese for that essay back in the day, which is very impressive. These books are hard enough to read in English.
- [68:08]
Leo
I ordered. I was. I just want to complain for a second. I got bait and switched. I bought the books. The first book in Japanese. So here it is, Dune.
- [68:17]
Abu
Oh, cool.
- [68:18]
Leo
And. And it's, you know, it's neat. It's. It's the book in Japanese and I mostly just to own it. But when I was buying it on the bookstore, it was the pre movie release covers that were like beautiful and really cool. That's the image that they had on the fucking bookstore. And then when they arrived, it's just Timothee fucking Chalamet in all of these goddamn movie version books. I don't want that bullshit. Totally bait and switched. I'm pissed off about it.
- [68:46]
Abu
I hate that this is neither here nor there. But I hate when books change their fucking covers. When the movie comes out and then you can't find the original cover anywhere and it's all just the fucking shitty movie cover with a big golden sticker on it that says now adapted on Netflix or whatever. It's like, bitch, I don't watch.
- [69:03]
Leo
Who cares? I read books.
- [69:07]
Abu
That's like such a pet peeve. It drives me crazy. I will go to great lengths to not get those fucking movie cover versions of books.
- [69:13]
Leo
Although you've seen now that there is a service or a website where you can buy stickers that replace the missing piece of art for those printed on.
- [69:21]
Abu
No way. I didn't know those.
- [69:22]
Leo
So it's like when there's like a big circle or something that says like. And it's. And it's only when they have like the original art, but then they have like the big. Then the big now printed. And it's. And it'll be a sticker or sometimes it's printed on the paper. You can't just remove it. So. So there's a company that will sell you stickers that replace the missing piece of art so you can put it on top of that circle and then it's back to being normal.
- [69:45]
Abu
I feel so seen by this sticker company being like, we need to preserve the original art of this book and not have this fucking Netflix sticker on here because they adapted it or whatever.
- [69:55]
Leo
It's so stupid. It's awful.
- [69:57]
Abu
All right. Wow, that was so fun. And once again, we've had such illustrative conversations. I feel like I've had even more revelations here in the last hour. And we've been covering this book for months. And this is what makes it such a joy on this podcast to discuss things with Yulio, but also to have her wonderful listeners and our community ask these probing questions and bring up these wonderful what ifs that lead to really enjoyable conversations. I had a blast today.
- [70:30]
Leo
Yeah, I did, too. And I think this is also the sort of thing. Even as we've been talking today, I've been thinking about Heretics and the first book, and I've been thinking about Children of Dune. As much as there's only so much Dune to talk about, I'm interested to go back to those early books with some of this late stuff in mind. And again, there's diminishing returns when you're dealing with, like, in Dune, he was figuring it out and he was like, yeah, I'm going to kill Alia and. Or kill Alia in Dune Messiah. And John Campbell Jr. Is like, no, no, no, you should leave Alia alive. And that changes everything about Children of Dune.
- [71:05]
Abu
Yeah.
- [71:05]
Leo
So there isn't so much we can get out of, like, necessarily keeping, like, Heretics and Chapter House in mind when we read the first few books. But we've talked about going back to the first books and kind of revisiting them with late books in mind.
- [71:18]
Abu
Yeah, like full on spoiler fashion.
- [71:21]
Leo
Yeah. And I'm very excited to talk about Chapter House. I think, genuinely, it's another book that is underrated broadly, and I think us revisiting it and going through it page by page is going to be really exciting.
- [71:35]
Abu
Agreed.
- [71:35]
Leo
And then I am excited to come back to this book at some point and talk about it and Chapter House together as sort of two books as part of a trilogy that was never finished.
- [71:44]
Abu
Yes. Yeah. I think even more so than dune 1, 2, 3. Heretics and chapter House almost have to be talked about within the context of the same conversation, which makes this sort of episode very difficult because we are not saying many things that happen in Chapter House that are relevant to today's conversation for spoiler reasons. But they are much more intrinsically linked than even, I would wager, like Dune and Dune Messiah are. These two books are a pair and they have to be considered together for sure. So I'm excited to get into Chapter House.
- [72:23]
Leo
Well, only a couple months until we do. Right, that's right now, as we mentioned and as we're talking about right now, we are committed to. To finishing all six of Frank's books. So our next book club series is going to be on Chapter House of Dune. We don't have yet any dates for when that book club series will begin, but of course, stay tuned on our Discord. Stay tuned on our Patreon website. Basically, we'll make it clear when that book club will begin. Like before, we're generally going to wait for the public feed to catch up and then we'll launch them at the same time, that sort of thing. So stay tuned. It's going to be very similar, I think, to the past book clubs. But before we let you go, of course we want to remind you of how you can support us, what we do here at. Com Jabbar and how you can make it so we keep the lights on and continue to do what we do.
- [73:15]
Abu
Indeed. And for the folks watching the live stream chat right now, you all already know this, but the two best ways to support us is to become a patron. Patreon.com jabbar you get some cool benefits like completely ad free episodes, early access to book clubs so you can jump right on them as soon as they're released, and live streams like this where you get to hang out with us and participate in recordings. Of course. We also have a merch store, gamjabarshop.com where you can snag yourself something cute. Maybe some pants that are tight around the crotch region.
- [73:49]
Leo
We don't have that. We don't have those yet.
- [73:51]
Abu
We can work on the dunky crotch pants gamtbarshop.com Two great ways to support the show and make sure that we can continue making it.
- [73:59]
Leo
Oh man, can you imagine in May when Dune Awakening's out, we can have we can all play video games together.
- [74:05]
Abu
Yeah, that'll be fun. Our Discord community is so nerdy and great and I love you all so much.
- [74:11]
Leo
It's going to be great. And finally, we'd love to hear from you, dear listener. So email us gomjabarpodcastmail.com, send us your thoughts, questions, pictures of your cute pets, requests for merch, ideas, questions, lingering ideas from heretics of Dune, and things you want us to cover in between book clubs because we also now have a couple of months we're looking at where what else should we talk about? Yeah, always interested to hear what you think. Gomdrumarpodcastmail.com the only thing I know is no one wants us to talk about Brian Herbert. We've gotten like 10 emails like please stop. Please. It's like, okay, all right, interesting.
- [74:51]
Abu
I do love the emails that are just like nobody. No text, just subject line that says please stop talking about.
- [75:03]
Leo
And I'm like, I can't tell if this is because you love it and you don't like us ribbing on it or you hate us I don't like it. I don't know why, but yeah, you can't make me. You can't make me do anything. Talk if it all goddamn well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of moving and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on TikTok at GoMTabarpodcast. We also have select episodes on YouTube. We record some episodes like this one there. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see see you on the golden path.