Siona Atreides

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Episode: Siona Atreides
Date: October 10, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo (Lore Party Media)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into one of the most pivotal yet enigmatic characters of the Dune universe: Siona Atreides. Abu and Leo walk listeners through Siona's life as presented in Frank Herbert’s God Emperor of Dune and expanded upon by the (non-canon but beloved) Dune Encyclopedia. The discussion explores her origins, education, rebellion, psychological complexities, and lasting impact on the Golden Path, all while questioning the true nature of rebellion and agency under tyranny.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Siona’s Early Life and Background

Timestamps: 04:35 – 16:21

• Parentage & Upbringing

  • Born in 13,698 AG to Moneo Atreides (Leto II’s major domo) and Fish Speaker Sayefa Nikal (05:40).
    • Leo jokes: “Sorry, Daddy. Oh, shit. Sorry.” (05:54)
  • Raised near Leto II’s citadel for her first ten years. Details of this period are left largely unknown—a “black box”—both in the novel and the encyclopedia (06:19–10:41).
  • Regularly observed the God Emperor with fascination, something Leto notices:
    • “You used to watch me very carefully when you were a child. I see that same look in your eyes tonight.” (From God Emperor of Dune, quoted at 07:43)

• Personal Loss and Grief

  • Mother dies of fever when Siona is sent to Fish Speaker school at around age 11 (12:16).
    • Siona later blames Leto for her mother’s death, reasoning that if not for his decisions, her family may have been together and her mother might have survived (12:23–13:24).
    • Abu observes: “That reads to me as a little bit illogical...but again, this is a child who’s going through grief...she probably just chose the easiest, biggest, wormiest target in her life.” (12:49–13:28)
  • Siona’s childhood trauma and grief fuel her burgeoning rebelliousness and deep resentment of Leto, a pattern the hosts compare to universal human reactions to loss and cosmic unfairness (13:39–16:03).

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2. Education: Fish Speaker School and Shaping a Rebel

Timestamps: 16:23 – 22:46

• A Targeted Curriculum
  • Siona is singled out for special treatment; instructors push her harder than any other student, following Leto II’s specific instructions (16:40).
    • “If I made even the slightest error, one target missed in a gunning drill, I was made to repeat the entire sequence. This was the first hint I was given that the instructors had been told to give me special attention. And I hated it.” – Siona, per the Encyclopedia (17:25)
• Balancing Privilege and Rebellion
  • Siona resents her special attention—questioning her own privilege and striving to prove her worth independent of her family ties and Leto’s plans (18:08–19:59).
• Exposure to Heresy
  • Leto instructs the teachers to expose Siona to the oral history, especially the contradictions with the state’s official version—planting seeds of doubt and heresy (20:20).
    • Leo jokes: “Have her read the Communist Manifesto. That book fucking slaps.” (21:10)
  • This calculated exposure is meant to cultivate a critical and rebellious mind, setting her firmly on a path opposed to the God Emperor (21:26–22:46).

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3. The Path to Rebellion

Timestamps: 24:36 – 33:23

• Early Activism

  • Siona’s open rebellion starts around 13,717 AG, at age 19, after determining her Fish Speaker peers are unwaveringly loyal to Leto (25:45).
  • She begins building her network predominantly with Fremen descendants and Fremen-sympathetic groups (26:01–27:15).

• Gathering Intel and Planning

  • The first three years are spent quietly building her rebel cell, using her access to information and contacts through her father (27:43).
  • Both Leto II and Moneo are swiftly aware of her activities; Moneo unsuccessfully warns her to stop (28:26–29:09).
    • The hosts point out that Leto’s inability to see Siona with prescience makes him rely on “Ixian eyes, electronic sensors, and on his informers” instead (29:25–29:45).

• Major Rebel Act

  • At age 25, Siona leads a failed raid on Leto’s Citadel—kicking off the main events of God Emperor of Dune (30:40–31:08).
  • Thereafter, she becomes the subject of Leto’s test in the desert, being exposed to visions of possible disastrous futures (32:07).

• Insights from the Dune Encyclopedia

  • Siona never describes her trance/vision experience; it is hinted she saw “far more of the horrific future that might have been than any Atreides other than himself had.” (32:16–33:23)

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4. Siona’s Role in the Golden Path and Question of Agency

Timestamps: 33:33 – 50:49

• Understanding Without Submitting

  • Despite witnessing the necessity of the Golden Path, Siona does not become an obedient follower—retaining her rebellious spirit and principles (34:12–35:27).

• Effect of Power Vacuum

  • After Leto’s fall, Siona struggles with the sheer scale of responsibility:
    • “She realized in that moment that a successful rebellion is not just about overthrowing a ruler. It required a reassignment of power and the ability to control that power. Siona, much to her chagrin, discovered that she could not channel the force she had released alone. She needed help. Duncan Idaho provided it.” (36:32)

• Duncan Idaho’s Importance

  • Duncan, prepared by Leto through ritual and role, becomes Siona’s partner in both rule and legacy, aiding her in guiding the Fish Speakers and humanity (37:41–39:08).
  • Their partnership exemplifies Leto’s social engineering: pairing Siona’s genetic uniqueness with Duncan’s revered status.

• The Problem With Power

  • The hosts debate why rebels rarely succeed as rulers (drawing from Terry Pratchett’s Guards! Guards!):
    • “The only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people...the trouble is, it’s the only thing you’re good at...the bad people know how to plan.” (40:21)
  • This segues to a meditation on the impossibility of benevolent absolute rule and echoes the cautionary politics at the heart of Dune (41:39–44:47).

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5. Siona’s Legacy: After Leto’s Death

Timestamps: 47:18 – 50:51

• Marriage & Descendants

  • Siona marries Duncan Idaho; together they have eleven children—those first with the genetic ability to be invisible to prescience. This fulfills the core requirement of the Golden Path (47:18–48:18).
  • The hosts joke:
    • “Their genetics are also incredibly hot and fuckable because these are the first children born with Siona’s ability to disappear from prescient view, which, as we know, was part of Leto’s golden path. This is critical to humanity’s future survival.” (48:00)
    • “I’m a prescience guy.” (48:35)

• End of Life

  • Duncan refuses life-extending melange and dies naturally; Siona lives to 255, withdrawing from politics and writing her memoir The Last Days (49:05–50:01).

• Myth, Memory & Impact

  • Siona’s life becomes legend—her genes and actions shaping the destiny of all humanity in the post-Leto universe.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Siona’s Upbringing:
  • “Anybody hear some heavy panting? What do we think that heavy panting behind us is? Oh, you know what this reminds me of? A very cute dog my neighbor had.” – Abu (00:34)
• On Critiquing Leto’s Influence:
  • “Moneo, plan me another fucking parade. Moneo, my sandwich’s getting cold.” – Leo (12:23)
• On Privilege and Rebellion:
  • “I can really see Siona fighting back against her privilege and kind of being one of those rich kids who works as a Starbucks barista because they have something to prove...” – Abu (18:08)
• The Terry Pratchett “Guardianship” Quote:
  • “You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you’re good at that, I’ll grant you. But the trouble is, it’s the only thing you’re good at...” (40:21)
• On the Nature of Power:
  • “Being in power is almost inherently an evil act. And it requires inherently...not like a cackling Captain Hook evil villain, but it requires somebody who is able to make decisions that a good person necessarily can’t.” – Abu (42:14)
• On Siona’s Rebellion:
  • “Does this make Siona less of a rebel? Is she just another pawn on his cosmic chessboard?” – Leo (52:13)
• On Siona’s True Choices:
  • “If she had exiled herself or if she had...taken her life...those would have been truly rebellious steps.” – Leo (57:01)
• Abu’s Counterargument:
  • “While Siona is a pawn in Leto’s schemes for effectively her entire life, I think actually choosing to remove herself...would be a selfish and futile gesture...her cause was to remove the tyrant and push humanity into a future where true freedom existed...Despite everything she learned, despite all the manipulations, despite seeing these horrific futures and recognizing the Golden Path was necessary, and that even Leto, too, was necessary. She never gave up that cause. And maybe that’s what it means to be a rebel, is to believe in your cause until the end.” (57:20–59:20)

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Exploring Siona’s Agency: Is She a Real Rebel?

Timestamps: 51:03 – End

• The hosts examine the paradox: Siona’s rebellion is “cultivated” by Leto—does that make her any less of a rebel?
• Leo says: “Siona remained his pawn. She remained the pawn of Leto Atreides even as he was kind of like dissolving at her feet...True rebellion...would have been exiling herself, ending her own life, you know, not being a part of his plans.” (53:51)
• Abu offers a counterpoint: Siona’s ongoing resistance, her lack of personal ambition, and her sticking to principle despite knowledge of the Golden Path, are exemplary of a “true rebel” (57:20–59:20).

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Closing Thought

The story of Siona Atreides is both an exploration of the power of myth and the impossibility of total agency under absolute power. Whether pawn or rebel, Siona’s actions—and her genes—change the universe forever.

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Listener Engagement & Wrap-Up

• Listeners are encouraged to share their own views on Siona’s legacy and the true meaning of rebellion.
• For more deep dives into Dune lore, support the show via Patreon or purchase merchandise. Contact at gomjabbarpodcastmail.com.

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“Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We’ll see you on the Golden Path.”

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Siona’s Childhood and Family: 04:35–16:21
• Fish Speaker School & Education: 16:23–22:46
• Origin of Siona’s Rebellion: 24:36–33:23
• Siona, the Golden Path, and Power: 33:33–50:49
• Marriage, Descendants, and Legacy: 47:18–50:51
• Siona’s Agency and the Nature of Rebellion: 51:03–End

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This summary skips all advertisements, intro/outro, and non-content banter. For further details, refer to cited timestamps or the official Gom Jabbar transcript.

Transcript

[A]

Today on the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We and our nine best, most irreplaceable friends.

[B]

Love them all.

[A]

Are running through the woods, stolen episode scripts tucked beneath our arms. We really do have to stress how important these people are to us. Okay.

[B]

Couldn't lose a single one.

[A]

These people, these friends are like family.

[B]

Family. Vin Diesel said gruffly. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm excited that they're out on this little mission with us. And I think we'll be good. As soon as we cross the Idaho river, we're in the clear. Yeah, it's all looking good.

[B]

What could go wrong?

[A]

Yeah, Quetteg, keep up, please. We're almost there.

[B]

Whatever the fucking slow one's name was. You keep up. Queteg's fine. Dude's injured.

[A]

Anybody hear some heavy panting? What do we think that heavy panting behind us is? Oh, you know what this reminds me of? A very cute dog my neighbor had.

[B]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. But my name is Leo.

[A]

And my name's Abu.

[B]

Oh, and today on the show, we are. We're leaning on that character piece of the intro because today we're talking about Siona. Hello. Hello. She has a long name. I was just looking at that first chapter where she's like running through the woods and she. At the end, it ends with that, like, Siona Ibn Fouad Al Safa Atreides it is. Who curses you, Leto. You will pay in full. And I'm like, What a fucking 1970s cartoon. Incredible moment.

[A]

You love to inherit every name of your ancestors.

[B]

Longer and longer names. It's great.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

So that is who we are talking about today. Before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Shout out. Mapes is looking expectantly. Only two names. Shout out Mapes. It's a long time ago. And first up is our spoiler warning. And today's episode will contain spoilers through the end of God, emperor of Dune. So make sure you've read all four of Frank's first four books.

[A]

That's right, basically. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderich level patrons, who we are definitely taking out on a mission to steal the stolen journals with us.

[B]

Irreplaceable. Love them all.

[A]

Irreplaceable. Daniel Dion, Seth Red and Greer Brad. Hutchins, Kevin Mohanram and Roger Young.

[B]

Did you write Bart Hutchins again on purpose?

[A]

I think it just our script template, it says Bard Hutchins and neither of us has corrected that, so.

[B]

Okay, well, listen, all of you, with us in the woods, we wouldn't be running alongside anyone else. Yes, and honestly, our thank you extends to all of our patrons. We are stealing these scripts from the Citadel for you all. Again, our appreciation for the support that you give us on the show literally means the world. So thank you all. And hey, if you can't become a monthly supporter and you are imagining us running for our lives from those dewolves through the woods, which you know in this financial industry can be sometimes how it feels. We do have the option of a one time tip. That link is in the show notes as well. If you have some like subscription fatigue.

[A]

That's right. Check it out. Okay, housekeeping out of the way. Here is the game plan for today's episode, folks. We will begin, as we always do with these character deep dive episodes by talking about what we know, what little we know about Siona Atreides childhood. And then we'll move on to her years at the fish speaker school and her eventual transformation into a young rebel who opposes the God Emperor. And then finally, we'll wrap up by exploring her life after the events of God Emperor of Dune, what takes place after Leto's death. And we'll end on an interesting discussion about Siona's agency and whether or not she's a true rebel. So all of that and more coming right up after a quick break. Hang tight, folks. When we come back, we're talking all about Siona Atreides. We'll see you in a minute.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you enjoyed a little run through the woods. Let's start by talking about Siona's early life. Of course, when we meet Siona Ibn Fuad Al Safa Atreides, she is already a fully grown rebel, fully rebellious, running through the woods with her irreplaceable friends. And there's only a few. Throughout that book, there's only a few kind of subtle hints about her childhood. But this is where, as always, the Dune Encyclopedia really helps out in filling in some of these gaps that we have in her life story.

[A]

That's right. So let's start at the beginning. The Dune Encyclopedia tells us that Siona was born in 13698 AG to Moneo Otrades, Major Domo.

[B]

Ever heard of him? Oh, sorry, Daddy. I mean, sorry, Daddy. Oh, shit. Sorry.

[A]

Oh, gosh. He's in a loop.

[B]

We can't break him out of it. Stuck. He's so hot.

[A]

To Father Moneo Atreides and Moneo's commanded breeding partner, the Fish Speaker, Sayefa Nikal.

[B]

Mommy. Sorry. Sorry. Oh, now he's stuck in another loop. The panic is real.

[A]

Now, the encyclopedia tells us that Sayefa left the Fish speaker school after Siona was born and when she was around 1 years old, and then moved in and alongside Moneo, helped raise Siona near Leto's citadel. And she would do this for the next 10 years. Siona would live with her parents, Moneo and Sayefa, near Leto citadel until she was around 10 years old. Now, the big bummer here is that we basically know nothing about these first 10 years of her life. They're a total black box. What her relationship with her parents was like, what her childhood was like, did she have any peers or friends, what her education was like, all of that is left up to theorizing and interpretation. But we are given some hints, both in God Emperor of Dune and in the encyclopedia, from which we can extrapolate a couple of key things. So starting with God Emperor of Dune, there's a moment in the book where Leto observes Siona's curiosity about him, and he mentions that this is something she's had her whole life. Quote, you used to watch me very carefully when you were a child. I see that same look in your eyes tonight. End quote. Okay, so there's a little bit of a hint about her childhood, this maybe fascination that she had early on with the God Emperor. And the Dune Encyclopedia corroborates this fact. And it actually reveals that Leto wrote about these moments when young Siona would accompany her father, the major domo, on these informal visits to work a little take your daughter to work day situation. The God Emperor details several of these encounters, describing with obvious amusement Siona's avid study of himself and her evident ignorance and of the fact that she was being studied in return. End quote.

[B]

I love that. I love that so much.

[A]

I love that, too. Now, this Fascination. The encyclopedia tells us this fascination with the God Emperor likely started for Siona. As, you know, just simple childhood curiosity. Who is this big, giant worm creature that my dad, my papa, works for? I'm sure because of the God Emperor's role in this society, there was also some religious awe there for the child. But we're told that this quickly shifted into cynicism as Siona grew into adolescence. And ultimately, she began pushing back and questioning and confronting her father about his service to the quote, unquote, worm, as she began calling him.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, typical teen, am I right?

[A]

Classic.

[B]

I mean, they're so interested and curious, and then they start. And then they start rebelling and they steal your journals, and then half their friends get eaten by walt wolves, and you go, it's not even my fault. You're a bad leader. Come on.

[A]

Parenting, you know.

[B]

Oh, parenting, it's tough.

[A]

Especially the part with the d Wolves.

[B]

Oh, especially that part. That's the hardest part of being a parent, I'm told by all my friends. Yeah. I do think it's interesting we know so little about Siona's childhood, and I wonder if that is. And again, the actual explanation is the Dune Encyclopedia was written at about the same time as God Emperor of Dune. God imperfect. Dune came out when the Dune Encyclopedia was, like, about to be published. So they had a mad dash at the end to write some articles about it. So that's part of why. But hey, as always, let's look at this from an in universe scope. Yeah, maybe this is something. Siona, who ended up kind of the head of the Fish Speakers and the Power after Leto's death, maybe she tamped down some of that very kind of sympathetic to Leto period of her life. Maybe as a child, the details that were coming out of her childhood were that of being in awe of his majesty. And those details would not have then survived her leadership, you know, the thousands of years until the discovery of Daris Ballat. Or maybe Leto knew it was important for her to be distanced from him and her early childhood. He just didn't add to his journals. She loves me so fucking much. She keeps saying, can I? I love the worm. The worm is my God. I love the worm. He, like, doesn't. Doesn't include that stuff.

[A]

I heart worm.

[B]

I heart worm. She has a little tattoo she drew herself. It's so cute.

[A]

Yeah. I was also thinking there's some rebel street cred there as well. She clearly comes from a very privileged family. Like, literally, her father works for the God Emperor. Okay. So the fact that she's a rebel maybe also plays into why she obscured some of the early details of her childhood. There's perhaps some street cred there as well that she needs to maintain.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Again, this is, I think, the low hanging fruit of the Dune encyclopedia is we always get to have that conversation too, of why is the information scarce? And it's always fun. I love that kind of theory.

[A]

It's always fun.

[B]

Well, her adjustment in attitude into her teenage years. Not exactly her teenage years, but like her early 11, 12 around there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is when she is shipped off to fish speaker school. No one likes being sent to boarding school, least of all Siona Atreides. And at this time, cue the Disney theme music, because tragedy strikes. And it's exactly the brand of tragedy that happens in every Disney movie ever. So true. Just a year into her schooling, she's away at boarding school being put through the wringer, taught hard truths, all that tragically, her mother, Sayfa dies, succumbing to a fever. Awful, terrible thing to happen to anybody, let alone a child who is now going through this huge new phase in life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this becomes one of the first events that Siona holds the God Emperor accountable for.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Now, the way she reasons this, we're told, is if Leto hadn't sent her to school, if he hadn't sent her away, and also if he didn't keep Moneo so goddamn busy all the time, just with task after task after task. Moneo, plan me another fucking parade. Moneo might. Sandwiches getting cold. Moneo, you know, all the goddamn time. Then someone would have been there to take care of her mom.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Sure. I mean, that's reads to me as a little bit illogical. That reads me a little bit like childlike reasoning for why her mother passed away. But again, this is a child who's going through grief, right? And she needs an outlet for that pain. She needs a target for her anger and for her grief. And so she probably just chose the easiest, biggest, wormiest target in her life to point at and go, you're the reason my mother died. And if XYZ had been different, she would not have died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So to me, this kind of reads as trauma speaking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Feeding into her already rebellious feelings about the God Emperor. This is just one more domino for her in the case against Leto ii, the God Emperor. Another reason to hate him.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think on a broad scale, that's really important to note. Just in the way that humans react naturally to things. Right. Like when you are struck with tragedy. We often look around and say, what? What is that fault? And sometimes it's just like cosmic chance. And that's such a hard thing to be okay with, right? So people will blame their deities, people will blame bad chance people. I mean, it's. It's a tale as old as time. Literally as old as human society.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And I think that's part of Leto's intention by becoming the God Emperor. He understands that he's going to be shouldering all of those pointed fingers because people will say that is the reason that we're suffering, that we're feeling antsy. We don't feel fulfilled. That is why. And then he marries that to. And you're stuck here. And that creates the scattering. So it's like this is the pressure that he's building intentionally. And Siona is a microscopic example of that on like an individual scale. But just imagine that happening. Trillions of people around the universe are pointing at Litto going, he's the reason so and so passed away. Or he's the reason that our fucking bridge collapsed. You know, and now we can't get shipments from the nearby town. And it's like dog, he's on so many light years away. Why is it his fault? And you go, because he controls everything. He is in charge of everything everywhere. Another thought I had is that Leto purposefully maintains a lot of mystique around what his powers are and aren't.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

At the point where we join Siona, we're not even sure if he can see the future. Right. Some people are going, legend says he's aware of everything all the time. And another one goes, you're all. You're fucking superstitious and dumb for believing that. But I think this is a byproduct of that. You talk about like a young child sees the God Emperor, who. There are like whispered conversations about what he can and can't do all the time. I imagine you say, if you're fucking prescient, if you're half the God Emperor you claim to be, you could have done something to save this person who was important to me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And the fact that you didn't is the blood's on your hands, it's on you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially because she has such an up close and personal experience with the God Emperor and her father's Moneo, who's going, oh, you don't understand. My boss. He's capable of anything. He's going to save humanity.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And you go, well, he couldn't even save Your fucking wife. What are you talking about?

[A]

He couldn't save my mom. Right.

[B]

Or my mom. Yeah. So there's. I think there's a lot of, like, real human quality to this, and I found it, like, super sympathetic.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I think it really works, especially given Leto's role.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In Siona's life. Leto's role in the universe and in the story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Well, moving on from that, let's talk about Siona's time at the Fish speaker school. Despite the grief of losing her mother, Siona actually excelled at the Fish speaker school. Over the next nine years of her life, she undergoes nine whole years of education.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

At this.

[B]

At this school, that's like a doctorate and a master's. Like, she's got an undergraduate doctorate and master's in just not being a Fish Speaker.

[A]

And, of course, because nothing in Siona's life isn't curated by the God Emperor, the. The teachers at the school had been given special instruction, in fact, to push Siona harder than the other students and to specifically curate her education. Siona actually wrote about this later in life. This is what the encyclopedia says. She wrote, quote, I saw pupil after pupil make mistakes in the simplest exercises and be given a gentle reprimand or. Or be completely overlooked. If I made even the slightest error, one target missed in a gunning drill, I was made to repeat the entire sequence. This was the first hint I was given that the instructors had been told to give me special attention. And I hated it. End quote.

[B]

Yeah, that's hard. I mean, naturally understandable. The idea that this person who you already blame for the death of your mother and who is in charge of everything, all the suffering, all of the stuff is happening despite his watch, and he has now instructed you to be treated as a separate, even like, more precious thing. And you're important to him for some reason. That's got to be really galling.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. And you can easily sort of connect the dots from that, from, like, oh, I lived a cushioned life. My dad works for the God Emperor. There's a very easy line for me to draw, to rebel, wanting to push against that and to, like, prove that you yourself are special, not because of your lot in life or because of your privilege. I can really see Siona fighting back against her privilege and kind of being one of those rich kids who works as a Starbucks barista because they have something to prove. They have this, like, chip on their shoulder, even though they have, like, the biggest safety net and a huge trust fund. Yeah, I see a Little bit of that in Sienna that she pushes back against being special because someone else says she's special. She wants to be special because she is, because she proves it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, individually, we all kind of strive to find value and, like, determine our own value. And we are given markers of value from our parents and our societies. But sometimes you want to step outside of that. And if you are being told by everything in your life that you're special because of who your father is and how the God Emperor treats you, then for sure you're like, how do I define my value outside of those things? I have to literally oppose those things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And show people that despite the extra scrutiny, I'm still willing to fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And rebel.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Pretty baller. Yeah. If your parents were two, like, Hollywood acclaimed actors and you were like, I'm going to tear down Hollywood. It's like, whoa, that's negative nepotism. That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. She really is. Yeah, she really is. I get the sense, reading between the lines here. This isn't explicitly stated in the encyclopedia or in God Emperor, but I get the sense, connecting these dots together, that she is really trying to fight against some of the Nepo accusations, basically.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of preempting them. Also. I don't know how many people are actually levying those against her. Oh, she hated that she was given special treatment. But it's not like we have any documentation of other people being like, oh, I'm so jealous of the fact that you're getting scolded for fucking up sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. Some of this seems to be just like internalized as well. Well, for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, one other note about her education that we learn about the encyclopedia that I thought was particularly interesting is that the instructors were also directed by Leto to expose Siona to the oral history more than the other students. And in fact, to expose Siona particularly on the many contradictions between the oral history and the official accepted state history.

[B]

Yeah. And this is heretical stuff. Yeah, yeah. You're in police state school and they're going, yeah, but let's teach you a little bit about how fucked up this government is. Punishable crimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is like what the instructors are being given orders to do.

[A]

Leito's like, assign her Catcher in the Riot to read. Don't assign anyone else that book.

[B]

Have her read the Communist Manifesto. That book fucking slaps. The teachers are like, oh, my God, are you sure?

[A]

He's like, yes, that's been banned for 3,000 years.

[B]

What the fuck? It's fine, comrade. I Mean teacher. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. And we joke, but the encyclopedia does say that the instructors were a little nervous. Right. Like you said, they are risking, like, pushing these heretical boundaries within their lessons with Siona. But ultimately, you never question the God Emperor. If the God Emperor tells you to teach this student the Communist Manifesto, that's what you do. And you just trust that there's a plan.

[B]

You say, how high?

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. So that's a little bit about Siona's education at the Fish Speaker School that the Dune Encyclopedia tells us about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something that we don't learn anything at all about from the book itself. So I thought it was interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Super cool. And again, like, all of this stuff is being preserved both in Leto's journals, but also any kind of history that's been discovered and uncovered by historians following the events, all of these events. So it's interesting, like, because all of this is also a piece of galactic myth making. Siona Atreides is the. By the time we get to heretics has like thousands and thousands and thousands of descendants. Like, she is the first blind to. To prescience being.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And a huge chunk of humanity now has her genes in them thousands of years later. So what are the legends told about this person and how do those spread?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And all of that's interesting.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Every little detail we're given is like, oh, very cool.

[A]

Part of the myth of Siona.

[B]

The myth, the myth that always surrounds so many Atreides people. Indeed, that line about her characteristic curiosity and how that is like such an Atreides quality, but again, is an Atreides quality according to the kind of myth around the Atreides. Like, it's so. I love it. It's just. It's great. Well, we are gonna take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're gonna talk about her full plunge into rebellion. So don't go anywhere. Dear listener. We'll be right back.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Oh, boy, that guy's a tool.

[B]

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[A]

Welcome back, folks. Let's continue with Siona's life and talk about the next big stage, her transformation into a young rebel into what will become the Siona that we know from the books. Now, of course, we know a lot about her rebel actions. From the book itself, we witness many of those sequences. But as usual, the Dune Encyclopedia helps us fill in some of the gaps around that story from the book. And so it's worth touching on a couple of details we learn here from the encyclopedia, starting with when this rebellious stage officially began for Siona, which we're told was in 13717ag at the age of 19. This is just as she's finishing up her fish speaker schooling and is about to graduate. Her years at the fish speaker school actually had made it very, very clear to her by this time that she was not going to be able to turn any of them against the God Emperor. Yeah, they had all drank the Kool Aid. She was not about to find any sympathetic rebels among her peers and classmates.

[B]

I want to see those conversations where she's like, how do you feel about the goddamn. They're like, great, love him. Great, love him. She's like, aren't you a little bit dissatisfied? No, never love them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, love them. Love them so much.

[A]

Hypothetically speaking, if you were to file a complaint.

[B]

Sure. No complaints.

[A]

Actually, none at all, really.

[B]

10 out of 10, every day. 10 out of 10. I mean, love them.

[A]

Not even like a bad day. You know, everybody has a bad day.

[B]

Never a bad day. Love it. Because anytime I start to have a bad day, I think of Leto, and then I'm like, what a good day. I'm gonna be one of his wives. All that, in a word.

[A]

Lord's like, fuck, right? So she was not gonna make any rebels out of the fish speakers at the school itself. That was pretty clear to her at this point. So instead, here's what she does. She begins to carefully put feelers out there and connect with outside conspirators beyond the fish speaker bubble. And she ends up connecting mostly with. This was interesting. Either Fremen descendants or those who were sympathetic to the Fremen tragedy. Because recall, by the time we're in God Emperor of Dune, the Fremen are just A shadow of their former selves. They're the museum Fremen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But clearly there are descendants and people who remember what the height of the Fremen looked like. And that is the first group of people that Siona begins to connect with as she forms her rebellion.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that makes perfect sense. Leto knows the tensions that he's built up over time, and he knows he got rid of Mentats effectively. He got rid of the Fremen effectively. And these factions that he knew needed to fade into history for his, like, for the reality of the universe to kind of fit his path.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So he understands that, and it makes sense, then, that she would find those people. And in fact, that's probably, again, part of. Part of the plan is for her to connect to.

[A]

Unfortunately, with Leto, you have to wonder how every bit of it is probably a little bit part of the plan right now. The first three years of Siona's rebellion are fairly quiet. She is mainly just using her connections through her father and through her years at the Fish Speaker School to gather as much intel as she can and to gain access and to install agents in useful positions so that her rebellion can begin to take action. It's a lot of planning, a lot of intel gathering for these first few years. Now, hilariously, the Dune Encyclopedia tells us that both Moneo and Leto, too, recognize pretty early on in these years what Siona was doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it seems like she wasn't exactly the most subtle about it. Or Moneo and Leito, too, are just two very well connected people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Or, you know, Leto literally has prescience, so he can really connect a lot of dots. And Moneo, being the concerned father that he is, immediately tries to warn Siona and dissuade her from this course of action, which, of course, as we know, is unsuccessful. She is committed to her rebellious deeds.

[B]

I mean, that's something I think unironically, unjokingly, most parents can relate to. It's like you. You're like, I really don't think you should be hanging out with that group of people. Has never worked. Has never worked once.

[A]

It's literally never worked.

[B]

But I also do love that, like, you know, and it's interesting you bring up prescience because it is true that, like, of course, Leto can see the comings and goings of, like, so many people. Yeah. But Siona is the first person in history that he basically can't see at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That doesn't mean he doesn't know everything she's Doing all the time. There's this great quote that you pulled. Quote. Since he could not accurately predict her actions with prescience, he depended rather more heavily than usual on his Ixian eyes, electronic sensors, and on his informers.

[A]

All right.

[B]

End of quote.

[A]

The traditional tools of spycraft, indeed.

[B]

His little birds, as various.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Would say. But I love the idea of her being like, oh, I'm like, very subtle. I'm making these connections and. And the whole time it's just like Moneo going, oh, Leto, should we be letter. It's like super cute and kind of funny how emblematic of the fact that Leto is just letting everyone rebel against him and using that as a means of finding new bureaucrats, new team members. His hiring process is mostly one driven by rebellion. So, yeah, I just. I found all of this to be really funny. In hindsight, for sure.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

Well, in 13723 AG, an antsy and eager Siona finally decides. You know what? Enough is enough. I'm going to take action.

[A]

Let's do it, baby.

[B]

Get this done. Me and my nine, 10 best friends, they're like family. Irreplaceable. My family leads a raid on Leto Citadel in the first chapter of the fourth book.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Of course, we all know how that went. Rest in peace, Quetag. Most badass dude in the fucking universe. Love him fighting wolves with wolves. You know, he brought wolves to a wolf fight. It was great.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

From there. We do know the trajectory of Siona's life, right? She stole those journals. She stole the plans of the citadel and how to, I guess, infiltrate his stuff. Like, right as she's getting the translations of those journals, Leto summons her for her tests in the journey in the desert. He feeds her Leto juice from his little cowl thing. Very gross. But we did want to share a small but interesting note about Siona's trance that the Dune Encyclopedia adds, which we thought was kind of interesting. And this is again, during her test. This goes to what we've been talking about this whole time. What is in the Dune Encyclopedia? What isn't? This quote, I think, is interesting quote. Though she was later to write much about this period of history, Siona never detailed her experiences during her hours of trance.

[A]

Mmm. So fascinating.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

The choice to keep that secret for the rest of her life. What she witnessed in those visions. What we know she witnessed in those visions because we read about them.

[B]

I also. The next line in the Dune Encyclopedia, I also wanted to highlight because I thought this was interesting and I can't remember if this is in God Emperor. So, dear listener, please forgive me if this is mentioned in God Emperor of Dune. But for those of you who, like myself, have forgotten, I thought this was interesting. Quote, Leto, in his journals indicated only that she had seen far more of the horrific future that might have been than any Atreides other than himself had. End quote. So fascinating, too, I think we, at times we will. As we talk about, like, whether or not she's a rebel at the end of this episode, I think it is easy to take her less seriously because of how much Leto did manipulate her life and kind of had control over these different beats. But I think it's worth stressing, beyond the fact that she just had the random genetic marker of cannot be seen by prescience, she saw more of the Golden Path, more of the horrific could have beens than almost anyone else in history other than Leto, which is wild. More than Paul Muadib Atreides, more than any of the other major domos for thousands of years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's part of what also passes Leto's test and makes her the perfect candidate to be the one to kind of carry that mantle forward.

[A]

You know, I agree. I think that's a good call. Out the fact that what she witnessed there was so horrific and so important and somehow even more horrific and more important than what Paul or Leto even saw. I think that's big. And I think that speaks to maybe why she kept it to herself. She maybe considered writing about it later on in life, but ultimately chose instead to keep it secret. Perhaps because it was too horrific for humanity to know. Maybe it's just not worth putting that information out there. It's more dangerous to put it out there than to keep it secret and take it to her grave.

[B]

Yeah. Or again, maybe that would sympathize people that she didn't want to sympathize toward Leto.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If she detailed the visions that she saw, maybe more people would be like, oh, well, if that was the alternative.

[A]

To bring the God Emperor back, we need him.

[B]

Bring him back. It would tumble humanity back into that hero worship that she personally grew up hating.

[A]

That's true. So true.

[B]

There's so many reasons to keep that secret. And it's fascinating to think about.

[A]

Definitely. Well, as we know from God Emperor of Dune, the events that do transpire out in the Serir, they sensitize Siona to the necessity of the Golden Path. Right. She begins to understand the God Emperor and why he chose to do what he did. But it does not Turn her completely into a loyal servant of the God Emperor, like it has done for Moneo and the major Domos that preceded him. In fact, she maintains her rebellious drive. And as we know by the end of the book, alongside Duncan Idaho, she is ultimately the reason for Leto2's legendary end. His tumble from the bridge down into the raging river, and his ultimate death.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After 3,500 years of existence.

[B]

An insane moment in history. Also, when we were preparing for our favorite quotes of Dune episode with Alt Shift X, I looked up that moment because I was looking at just Hui Nuri as a character in so many of those quotes, and the fact that her final words to him are, I'm going to go ahead without you, my love, or whatever. It's like, ugh. Devastating. Almost cried again.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Among the kind of, like, scant details that we get from the Dune encyclopedia, we did want to share this one that comes to basically, Siona facing the universe, having just kicked Leto out of the driver's seat, she's like, get the fuck out of here, worm. Then she's behind the wheel and she's like, oh.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Sure would be nice to have a, like, omniscient, prescient God to, like, know what to do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because holy shit, I'm not equipped to handle this. And I think ultimately that is a. Also a very human reaction to steering all of humanity. No one person is really equipped for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she realized in that moment that a successful rebellion is not just about overthrowing a ruler. Quote, it required a reassignment of power and the ability to control that power. Siona, much to her chagrin, discovered that she could not channel the force she had released alone. She needed help. Duncan Idaho provided it.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

End quote. Main character, main character of Dune, there to help out. Yeah. And by help, we mean lots of sex. Just so much sex. That was the one missing piece. She was like, ugh, Yeah, I just have so many meetings, but I. So much tension that I need to release somehow, and I don't know how to end. Duncan's like, yoo hoo.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

I got you, babe. You see me climbing rocks. I mean, ultimately, she was raised to be a rebel, not a ruler necessarily. And it was only with Duncan's help that she was able to wrangle the fish speakers, guide humanity into their uncertain future.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically becoming the leader that she needed to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it takes a team. Right. Teamwork makes the dream happen, as people famously say.

[A]

Right. And it also makes me think on the sea and oak Ceremony and how Leto takes Duncan to the C and Oak ceremony. And the fish speakers kind of worship not only Leto, but also Duncan as well. Or at least he's up there with Leto. It reads to me as Leto setting Duncan up to then help Siona rule later to be able to wrangle the most powerful military force in the galaxy at the time, which is Leto's fish speakers. I think Duncan being in that position of being their leader, being their commander, and then also being a bit of a religious icon alongside Leto too, helps Duncan come in and alongside Siona wrangle this now unleashed military force who just lost their God and hone that power. Right, that quote you just read, the ability to reassign power and the ability to control power. Leto, in the events of God, Emperor of Dune, we kind of witness him hand some of the keys to Duncan to be able to do that, prepping him for that future, that uncertain future of humanity. Because, you know, Siona herself will not be able to. Siona has been through the schooling program for nine years, but that does not mean that she is capable of being a leader. And she certainly isn't going to be worshipped in the same way that Leto. 2's especially hand picked ghola. Always has been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I found that interesting that he was a necessary part of the plan and Siona could not do it alone after Leto died.

[B]

Yeah, it's all so calculated. I also, as we're talking about this, like, as it turns out, rebels are not necessarily always the best to, like, be the ones in charge. Yeah, I did want to share, if you'll indulge me for a second, a Terry Pratchett quote. Do you know Terry? Love it. I fucking love Terry Pratchett. And the first book of his I read was Guards, Guards, which has this speech that I think is so relevant. So this is from Terry Pratchett's Guards, Guards. Okay. Quote. You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you're good at that, I'll grant you. But the trouble is, it's the only thing you're good at. One day it's the ringing of the bells and the casting down of the evil tyrant. And the next it's everyone sitting around complaining that ever since the tyrant was overthrown, no one's been taking out the trash because the bad people know how to plan. It's part of the specification, you might say. Every evil tyrant has a plan to rule the world. The good people don't seem to have the knack. End quote.

[A]

Chills. What a good quote.

[B]

Fucking great. But the idea that like, no, it is like the evil planning, conniving people who figure out the logistics and they have all of these things kind of handled. And in a way, it is Leto who was the villain. He became the villain of humanity. But because he had all of these plans in place, Siona, her entire life was defined. Her. Her agency was defined as opposing Leto, not as by having a plan to replace him or having a plan to take his place. Her plan was chaos, which is, I think, part of Leto's point. He didn't want someone to replace him. He didn't want another tyrant to take over humanity. He didn't want there to be another villain.

[A]

Absolutely. The chaos, the scattering, the famine.

[B]

That's the point.

[A]

Was the point.

[B]

Yes, it's the whole point. Now, unfortunately, Siona takes the brunt force of, oh, fuck. That's the point. And everyone's looking at me for answers. And the whole point is there's no answers.

[A]

The trash is not getting taken out.

[B]

The trash isn't getting taken out. Oh, no. The people in OWN are like, wait, so no, no more festivals. We're the festival city. We don't have any festivals. She's like, I'm busy with the fucking trash logistics. I can. I can't plan parades. Okay. They're like, we missed the parades.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That is, you know, I mean, like, this is steering us like into some deeply philosophical and complicated territory about good versus evil and power and whatever. But I love that Terry Pratchett quote because it does raise this. This like, problem with power that I personally struggle with a lot, which is the idea that being in power is almost inherently an evil act. And it requires inherently not like a cackling Captain Hook evil villain, but it requires somebody who is able to make decisions that a good person necessarily can't or won't.

[B]

Right? Sure.

[A]

And that's almost required, especially at the scale at which in modern society people wield power. Right. Like, once you're at. You're at a level of a Leto to the God Emperor. Once you're at a level of an emperor like Paul Atreides, man, you were just doing evil stuff like every single day. Stuff that like a quote unquote, good person is just incapable of doing or is unequipped to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's sort of like the natural necessities of power. That's almost like a dirty little secret is it is rare in history that a good kind hearted selfless truly altruistic person takes the reins of power and is able to wield it effectively.

[B]

Yeah. So I think. And that there's a couple of things there. Yeah, we are getting a little bit off track, but ultimately we are a Dune podcast talking about fucking Dune, which is a very off track type of book, I think. So there is the many, many quotes in Dune about like power attracts the corruptible. It's like it is. It's not that power corrupts. It's the people who are taking the reins of power are the people who are corrupted by it. And that's just the nature of the beast. The people who want to be in charge are often not exactly the right ones to be in charge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also think an element of like, you know, conversations around like, is it possible to have an ethical billionaire? Because in this modern age, finances are a representation of the ability to get shit done. And when you have that much and you aren't actively getting a lot done, then you are by necessity unethical. And naturally that is still hotly debated in many circles. But I think if you don't have the means to wield that power for the enormous good that it's capable of, which also means having the wide perspective and crazy, you know, you have to be type A to the fucking nth. You need color coded spreadsheets for every fucking aspect of life. You know, reminders every three minutes. Hey, did you check on this? Hey, did you do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The reality is it is so very few people could, very few people actually could wield that power in a way that benefits humanity proportionally to how much power you are wielding.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And that's why it's wrong to have that much power to say, hey, this person should have the ability to be a millionaire a million times over because they have the ability to wield that representation of wealth. Well, no, no one can. And do you know how I know no one can? Because there's no one who is. And there are hundreds of people and.

[A]

There'S no one who has historically ever.

[B]

There are people who've done a pretty good job of it. And there are, there are people who have made some really important contributions to society with their enormous wealth, but for every one of them, there's literally every other person.

[A]

Right. So who's maybe even undone some of that by damaging the society with their enormous wealth.

[B]

No fucking kidding. No kidding. And I think when you start actually taking the tally, that's where you accidentally become radicalized against billionaires existing period. But I think similarly, we could look at this becoming the God Emperor, becoming the tyrant of trillions of humans. Siona is realizing there's no way for someone to take that mantle of power and to actually effectively wield it in a way that doesn't just immediately lead to the trash not getting collected and the fucking like parties not getting planned. And also all of the nitty gritty of day to day operations on every planet in the fucking imperium. Yeah, that's the whole point. And that's Leto's point as he breaks down this type of power structure.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So all I'm saying is we need one billionaire to disenfranchise all the other billionaires and then rule for like 100 years and then cause a sort of financial scattering, so to speak, where we as a species devolve into socialism.

[A]

Financial famine times.

[B]

Yep, yeah, financial. I mean we're kind of there already with like grocery prices and stuff. So you know, and then, and then the communist manifesting a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, no, I get it. I'm absolutely there with you. And this is why like obviously in the US we're watching this breakdown day to day in front of our very eyes. But a robust system of checks and balances I believe is so necessary because power will attract the corruptible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's actually a fact. You have to work with. You have to assume that people you are putting in power will then be corrupted. So then we give the good people and the public robust tools of checks and balances to keep that in check, to not allow that to become a 3,500 year rule of a God worm. And I think that's, you know, obviously there's a lot to say about those systems breaking down, at least in the states here. But yeah, yeah, I'm totally in the same boat as you. I vote that one guy who's like replacing every organ in his body to live forever or whatever, he should be the one. Let's make him the guy that becomes the billionaire that lives for a thousand years.

[B]

Yeah, that can't go wrong.

[A]

That can't go wrong. Okay, let's get back on track and wrap up the life of Siona here. One little detail we wanted to share from the encyclopedia that we don't get in the book is about the end of Siona's life. We're told that Siona and Duncan actually do fall in love and are married in 13728 AG. And then over the next 20 years they actually have 11 children, nine daughters and two sons. And of Course, these children are incredibly important, as we talked about earlier, because these are the first children. Yeah. First of all, they're actually a 10 out of 10 hot human beings.

[B]

Just dimes. Dimes of humans.

[A]

Yeah. Absolutely. So fuckable. But on top of that, their genetics are also incredibly hot and fuckable because these are the first children born with Siona's ability to disappear from prescient view, which, as we know, was part of Leto's golden path. This is critical to humanity's future survival.

[B]

You know, everyone's always talking like, are you a boobs guy? You a butt guy? All that. You know, the thing that's really so fuckable. How invisible to prescience are you? Because if you. If all I see is your fucking footsteps.

[A]

Mm. I'm a prescience guy.

[B]

Oh, God. I'm a prescience guy, so.

[A]

God.

[B]

Oh, I want. I want to not even see you in my prescient visions. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. A couple more fun details here from the encyclopedia. We're told that Duncan, unlike Siona, refuses to take life, extending amounts of melange here. And he lives a natural life.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

And dies in 13,791 AG. He refuses to extend his life beyond a normal human lifespan, claiming that he had lived far longer than he had any right to, clearly referencing 3,000 years of Goa lifetime.

[B]

You know what? Fair. Totally fair. It's a good thing he never comes back again.

[A]

Totally fair. Yeah. Alas, we're also told in the encyclopedia, as the entry wraps up, that Siona, after the death of her husband and beloved Duncan, removes herself from public life and chooses to live quietly on Arrakis for the rest of her life. This is, in fact, when she publishes her book the Last Days, which the historians within the Dune universe, I'm sure reference in regard to analyzing Sienna's life here. Her own words, her own recollections of her life and her rebellion.

[B]

That's a great title.

[A]

That is a great title. Yeah. And to wrap up here with Siona, we're told that at the age of 255, Siona ibn Fuad al. Al. Al Muad Dwad Atreides dies.

[B]

Siona ibn Fuad al Sayfah Atreides. Yeah, I had to look that up, but yeah.

[A]

What a life.

[B]

She's got a lot of life.

[A]

What life lived, to be fair, an iconic character.

[B]

Long life, longer name. That's what I've always said about her. Yeah. Really, really incredible. And again, crazy to think about the fact that she is the beginning of, effectively, humanity's salvation because she is the first prescient invisible person. She's just safe. Feel incredible.

[A]

It's incredible stuff.

[B]

Well, that's the life of Siona Atreides. As we wrap up, I think it's worth taking a few minutes to consider how choreographed her life was.

[A]

Perhaps more than we've even considered before.

[B]

Indeed. You know, from her early close exposure to the God Emperor himself, how many people can say that they were a child hiding behind pillars, kind of peeking at him curiously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To the death of her mother.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Somewhat due to his negligence or due to his demands on her father, who then wasn't able to take care of her mother, to her teachings in school under his, like, police force school. It really seems like Leto was laying the groundwork to nurture this person that she would end up becoming.

[A]

Right. Absolutely.

[B]

And as we learn in the book, this is a key piece of his recruitment process, his LinkedIn, his Indeed. Job postings are like, how much do you hate me? Scale of 1 to 10? If you're a 10, I hate you so, so, so much. You're a top candidate. So as we think about this, this raises kind of a thorny question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If your rebellion is cultivated by your oppressor, actually encouraged by your oppressor, is it true rebellion?

[A]

Wow. Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

Does this make Siona less of a rebel? Is she just another pawn on his cosmic chessboard?

[A]

Yeah. Gosh, that's really fascinating to consider because it does feel like even more so than someone like Moneo, Siona is pushed and pushed and pushed into the role of rebel. It makes me even wonder how intentional the death of her mother was. And the timing of it as she leaves for school. Oh, you know, like, again. Oh, now I'm getting into like conspiracy theory territory.

[B]

She died of a fever and also being pushed down the stairs. Hello.

[A]

Dun, dun, dun. It's like, oh, camera whip panted Leito at the top of the stairs.

[B]

Take that. He's like crammed into the tiny house. She never saw it coming.

[A]

I think this is a really interesting question for us to end on because I think you could argue both sides that she still is a true rebel despite how much of it has been curated. Or that because so much of it is curated, it's actually not true rebellion. It's just another cog in leto's very complicated 3500 year long machine. I'm curious where you fall on it. What do you think in response to this question?

[B]

Well, yeah, it's funny because, like, I run into this a lot with my French Wife, where she'll ask, like, a question about a word, and I'll have to just, like, think about a word in a way that I never have before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I found myself wondering, like, yeah, what is the nature? Like, what does it mean to be a rebel?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I do think, looking at the shape of it all, that Siona remained his pawn. She remained the pawn of Leto Atreides even as he was kind of like dissolving at her feet. And I think that true rebellion, if she had really successfully defined herself by opposing him and his wishes, would have been exiling herself, ending her own life, you know, not being a part of his plans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, that being said, it's clear that if she had been like, fuck you, I got eaten by wolves. He would have been like, oh, damn, guess I'll breed another. And then would have made another siona treaty. Like, it would have just delayed his plans and all the events of God Emperor of Dune would have delayed them by, like, 20 years or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So I will say, you know, Leto needed rebels and, dare I call them, heretics, because that's kind of his whole jam to continue his Golden Path. The whole point of his Golden Path was to be the last tyrant. And it wouldn't be someone of a similar. Like, you know, Malky could see himself on the throne, you know, oh, so Malky, he's someone that could never be that person. And Moneo even fell into step after his revelatory moment with. During his test where he unlocked his prescience, saw the Golden Path. He fell in line in a way that disqualified him for potential undoer of the God Emperor. And I imagine that everything he was doing iteratively for every Atreides that he bred was to equip them with the skills they needed to take him out with the gumption, the motivation to do it. That's such an interesting question about the death of her mother. I mean, he almost certainly saw her death as something that was happening because he was using prescience. But I wonder. Yeah. If he intentionally kept Moneo extra busy that period of her life in order to let her mother pass away. That's interesting, but also, I think, like, very akin to. I see this pattern repeat over and over again in the Dune series, like Paul seeing the inevitability of Chani's death and seeing his own failure in his prescient visions. I think Siona, part of why she doesn't talk about her experience in the desert is because part of her vision of the Golden Path was one of her own defeat. Oh, I haven't ever been a rebel, and I'm never going to be a rebel. But I do have to play this role. I do have to continue down this. This path. She gets to watch him die, like, that's kind of a nice little bonus thing. But that's also where I have the most sympathy for, like, Duncan, who didn't recognize that Huy Na Ri was gonna die as a byproduct of their efforts, you know, this woman that he had come to love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I see all of it as like kind of marching to Leto's drum.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's kind of where I fall on it. Like, if she had exiled herself or if she had like taken her life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Those would have been truly rebellious steps.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, I agree actually with all of your points. Ultimately, I do agree that Siona ends up being a pawn in the larger games, the 3,500 year long games that Leito 2 is playing. But just to make the end of this episode a little more interesting.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to try and argue the other side of the coin and try and make the case for why we can still consider Siona to be a true rebel at the end of the day, despite Leto's schemes. Because I think your initial reaction to sit down and consider what the word rebel and what the word rebellion actually means is maybe entirely Frank Herbert's point. With Siona as a character, I think through this character, he is asking the questions of what it means to truly rebel. Asking the tough questions about what it takes to overthrow a corrupt system like Leto2's and to make the other side of the argument. While Siona is a pawn in Leto's schemes for effectively her entire life, I think actually choosing to remove herself from those schemes, while effective as a true act of rebellion, to say, I'm not playing your games wouldn't actually achieve the goals of her rebellion. It would be ultimately a selfish and futile gesture. It would not achieve anything because it would not remove Leto II from the equation which is the goal of her revolution, rebellion. And I think when it comes to rebels, we've talked a lot about the philosophy of power and good and evil. And I think Siona, in my opinion, sort of embodies an ideal rebel because she's not seeking power in any way. Her rebellion is not aimed at personal gain. She acts out of a genuine desire to rid humanity of these shackles that have been imposed by the God Emperor. She's seeking true freedom, even if she can't quite articulate what that freedom is. She struggles to articulate some of her ideals to Duncan Idaho in the book when he pushes her on them, but she does feel them innately. There's something in her gut that tells her that this is right and this is wrong, and she's fighting for what she believes is right. And so I do think that is admirable. And I think the last point I want to make here then, in her defense, is that we can look at Moneo as sort of the counter example. Moneo also went through a rebellious phase. He also underwent a test by the God Emperor. And on the other side of it, he becomes a dutiful servant who actually ends up kind of annoying Leto with his bureaucratic and backwards thinking because he's then locked into being nothing more than a servant. He stops pushing back on the God Emperor.

[B]

Yeah, true.

[A]

Whereas Siona is able to actually do both. She's able to undergo the test and able to recognize the necessity of the Golden Path. She gets it. But she still sticks to her principles. She still is like, I. My gut says this is right and this is wrong, and I'm still going to oppose Leto's tyranny. I am not going to become a sycophant like my father. Yeah. And so I think ultimately, like, these qualities in Siona are quite admirable. I think they do sketch out what perhaps Frank Herbert is saying, an ideal rebel against a corrupt system may look like and act like. And, you know, despite many of Leto's manipulations in her life, throughout her entire life, I think she can die proudly calling herself a rebel who never gave up the cause. Her cause was to remove the tyrant and push humanity into a future where true freedom existed. And despite everything she learned, despite all the manipulations, despite seeing these horrific futures and recognizing the Golden Path was necessary, and that even Leto, too, was necessary. She never gave up that cause. And maybe that's what it means to be a rebel, is to believe in your cause until the end.

[B]

It's a good point. It is an interesting consideration, and I think you're right that that's also Frank's point is us looking at these power structures and, you know, what does it mean to fall in step with them?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Maybe sometimes you tear them down, even if you recognize that the end goal of the person you're overthrowing is to be torn down or whatever. Well, so that's. That's our conversation about Siona Atreides, dear listener. We want to hear what you have to say about it for sure. And as part of that, we're going to wrap up now, but before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. And of course the two best ways to support us. One is to become a patron [e-mail] gomjabbar and the other is to get some Dune themed swag from our merchandise store. Those links are in our show notes.

[A]

Also, we love to hear from you, so email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts and your questions. And of course send us pictures of your cute pets. We'd love to hear any thoughts you have about Siona Atreides and whether or not you have a cat named Sienna. I think that'd be really cute name.

[B]

Yeah. Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram or party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path. And Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu Save yourself money today.

[A]

Increase your wealth.

[B]

Customize and save. We save. That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Podcasts Terms apply.