The Best Quotes in Dune ft. Alt Shift X

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Episode: The Best Quotes in Dune ft. Alt Shift X
Date: September 26, 2025
Guests: Abu (host), Leo (host), Alt Shift X (YouTuber/guest)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Gom Jabbar dives deep into the best quotes from Frank Herbert’s Dune series, exploring how specific lines encapsulate the saga’s themes of knowledge, uncertainty, history, and what it means to be human. Joined by renowned YouTuber Alt Shift X, Abu and Leo focus on their personal favorite “deep cut” quotes rather than obvious classics like “Fear is the mind killer.” The conversation ranges across all six original Dune novels, examining Frank Herbert’s recurring philosophies and their resonance both in-universe and in the real world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Human Quest for Knowledge and Discovery

• Alt Shift X opens with a quote from the Orange Catholic Bible (Dune, early in Book 1):

  “Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear? Another world all around us. What is there around us that we cannot...” (06:59)

  • Discussion:
    • This captures Frank Herbert’s fascination with the limits of knowledge, curiosity, and the possibility of realities beyond human perception.
    • Alt Shift X analyzes Herbert’s life and influences—journalism, Zen Buddhism, psychedelics—and how they shaped Dune's recurrent theme of striving for revelation and being “addicted” to transcendence.
    • Leo draws parallels to the “Amtal” moments in Dune—breaking points that reveal inner truths.
    • Both hosts reflect on how Dune’s central lesson is that one should remain humble, always seeking and questioning knowledge.

• Abu’s paired quotes:

  1. “How easy it was to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning.” (Dune Messiah) [13:50]
  2. “To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure on the edge of uncertainty.” (Leto II, Children of Dune) [14:05]
  • Lessons:
    • Value of humility and ongoing curiosity.
    • Warning against the dangers of certainty and absolutism—both personal and political.
    • Great teaching is making people fall in love with learning, not just giving answers.

• Balloon Analogy (Alt Shift X, ~17:43):

  • Knowledge as a balloon that grows—more knowledge increases the surface exposed to the unknown.
  • The series literalizes this with the “Scattering” in the sequels.

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2. Uncertainty, Dogma, and the Joy of Discovery

• Children of Dune, The Preacher’s Sermon (quoted by Alt Shift X) [29:06]

  “Abandon certainty. That’s life’s deepest command. That’s what life is all about. We are a probe into the unknown, into the uncertain... If certainty is knowing absolutely an absolute future, then that’s only death disguised. Such a future becomes. Now he showed you this.”

  • Themes:
    • Frank Herbert’s stand-in as the Preacher—directly warning readers against dogmatism in all forms: religion, politics, even prescience (the desire to “know” the future).
    • The emotional argument: If life is fully planned and known, it loses joy and meaning—the delight lies in surprise and learning.
    • Leo connects this to Paul, whose prescient “certainty” brings heartbreak and tragedy.

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3. Learning How to Learn: Growth, Creativity, and Human Potential

• Leo’s Favorite Quote (Dune, early epigraph) [~22:12]

  “Muad’dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn. It is shocking to find how many people do not believe they can learn and how many more believe learning to be difficult. Muad’dib knew that every experience carries its lesson.”

  • Reflections:
    • Encouragement to try new things—embrace hobbies, creativity, personal growth.
    • Frank Herbert’s own diverse experiences (speechwriter, journalist, inventor, mushroom farmer) modeled this ethos.
    • The value isn’t answers, but curiosity, love of living, and the courage to start.

• Alt Shift X on Epigraphs:

  • Frank often uses them to break the fourth wall and give direct messages to the reader.

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4. Words, History, and the Limits of Language

• God Emperor of Dune: Questioning Memory and Meaning (Leo, 40:23)

  “The present is distraction, the future a dream. Only memory can unlock the meaning of life.” “My words were a foolish lie. I knew it at the time, but I was infatuated with the beautiful words. No memory unlocks no meanings without anguish of the spirit, which is a wordless experience. There are no meanings anywhere.”

  • Dune increasingly focuses on epistemology: what is truth in a universe defined by institutions that remember thousands of years?
  • The inadequacy of words to capture reality; importance of direct, wordless experience.
  • Irony of Herbert—a wordsmith—distrusting words, highlighting the need for vulnerability and authenticity in art and life.

• History as Narrative:

  “Throughout our history, the most potent use of words has been to round out some transcendental event, giving that event a place in the accepted chronicles, explaining the event in such a way that ever afterward, we can use those words and say, this is what it meant.” (42:07)

  • History as story; beware the comfort of neat narratives.
  • Layered storytelling in Dune—epigraphs, in-universe historians like Irulan—always with agenda and bias.

• God Emperor as Historical Artifact (46:45)

  • The whole book is Leto II’s journal, a “found document,” making readers question memory, truth, and storytelling.

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5. Creativity, Art, and Openness

• God Emperor of Dune (Abu’s quote) [50:11]:

  “You always know the creative because it is revealed openly. Concealment betrays the existence of another force entirely.”

  • True art requires honesty and vulnerability, both inwardly (with oneself) and outwardly (with one’s audience).
  • Contrasts “pure” creativity with manipulative, coercive creation.
  • The hosts reflect on their own creative processes, the value of authenticity, and how Herbert’s message still applies.

• Collaboration and Acknowledgment:

  • Alt Shift X points out a subtle thank-you to Bev Herbert in the Appendices (Ohashi and Nissai) [56:13]:

    “There is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nissai.”

    • A nod to the team effort behind Dune and the unspoken contributions of others.

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6. Joy, Humanity, and the Reason for Living

• Chapterhouse: Dune (Adradi’s quote) [58:34]:

  “After all of that, it’s good to be alive. Remember that.”

  • Delivered at the end of the saga, after so much struggle, this line encapsulates Herbert’s ultimate message: politics, philosophy, struggle—all are secondary to the simple, direct joy of being alive.

• Other Noted Quotes & Lightning Round (60:52):

  • Fun, out-of-context lines (“There was an adult beef swelling in his loins…”) showcase the eclectic, sometimes bizarre side of Herbert’s prose.
  • A prescient warning about AI:

    “What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking. There’s the real danger.” (Heretics/God Emperor era)

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Notable Quotes (with Attribution & Timestamps)

• Alt Shift X [06:59]:

  “Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear? Another world all around us. What is there around us that we cannot—” — Orange Catholic Bible, Dune

• Abu [13:50 / 14:05]:

  “How easy it was to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning.” — Dune Messiah

  “To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure on the edge of uncertainty.” — Children of Dune

• Leo [22:12]:

  “Muad’dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn. It is shocking to find how many people do not believe they can learn and how many more believe learning to be difficult.” — Dune

• Alt Shift X [29:06]:

  “Abandon certainty. That’s life’s deepest command. That’s what life is all about. We are a probe into the unknown, into the uncertain. Why can’t you hear Muaddib? If certainty is knowing absolutely an absolute future, then that’s only death disguised. Such a future becomes. Now he showed you this.” — Preacher/Paul, Children of Dune

• Leo [40:23]:

  “My words were a foolish lie. I knew it at the time, but I was infatuated with the beautiful words. No memory unlocks no meanings without anguish of the spirit, which is a wordless experience. There are no meanings anywhere.” — God Emperor of Dune

• Abu [50:11]:

  “You always know the creative because it is revealed openly. Concealment betrays the existence of another force entirely.” — God Emperor of Dune

• Alt Shift X [56:13]:

  “There is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nissai.” — Dune Appendices (Herbert’s nod to Bev)

• Alt Shift X [58:34]:

  “After all of that, it’s good to be alive. Remember that.” — Adradi, Chapterhouse: Dune

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Memorable and Lighter Moments

• The hosts riff on “live, laugh, melange” as a play on “live, laugh, love”—brainstorming potential Dune merchandise [37:04].
• Leo and Alt Shift X joke about Dune’s “out there” lines and epigraphs, plus the sometimes bizarre prose (“beef swelling,” “drop bears infused with spice”) [61:13].
• Recurring debate: “Fear is the mind-killer” as a quote—overrated or not? [05:14, 60:52].
• The hosts, all creatives, share personal experiences about embracing vulnerability in their art.

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Timestamped Structure of Discussion

• 00:00–01:13: Cold open banter
• 01:13–04:39: Formal episode start, guest intro (Alt Shift X)
• 06:44–11:18: Alt Shift X’s first quote (knowledge, limits of perception)
• 11:18–13:19: Further exploration: Humility and the dangers of being “too open-minded”
• 13:22–22:04: Abu’s paired quotes about knowledge and discovery
• 22:08–29:04: Leo’s learning quote; teaching as fostering curiosity
• 29:06–34:21: The Preacher’s “abandon certainty” quote, critique of dogma
• 34:21–39:11: Impact of love and joy in the Dune series
• 39:11–46:45: Words, memory, limits of language, and historical narrative
• 46:45–49:14: Dune as historical fiction, layers of meta-textual meaning
• 49:20–53:09: Art, creativity, and vulnerability
• 53:09–56:13: Reflections on sincerity and personal artistic practice
• 56:13–58:34: Alt Shift X on Frank & Bev Herbert’s partnership
• 58:34–64:14: Final quote: “It’s good to be alive”; wrapping up with why Dune endures
• 60:52–63:41: Lightning round: quirky, notorious, and prescient Dune lines

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Dune’s best lines go far deeper than the iconic one-liners. Beneath the sand and spice, Herbert’s real message—delivered through vivid, multilayered prose—is about humility, curiosity, love, and the unpredictable, beautiful mess of being human.
• Herbert cautions against certainty, dogma, and self-satisfaction—whether in politics, knowledge, or personal growth.
• The essence of life, as echoed at the series’ conclusion: “It’s good to be alive. Remember that.” (58:34)
• Even in its weirdest moments or densest philosophy, Dune is at heart a celebration of exploration, learning, and human resilience.

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Where to Find the Guest

• Alt Shift X:
  • YouTube: Alt Shift X
  • Dune, Game of Thrones, and more – new videos in the works!

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Hosts: Abu and Leo, Lore Party Media
Special Guest: Alt Shift X

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For feedback or to share your favorite Dune quotes:
Email: gomjabarpodcastmail.com
Follow: @lore_party on Twitter and Instagram

Support:
Patreon — patreon.com/gomjabbar
Dune merch store — see show notes

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Final words:
Whoever controls the podcast, controls the universe.
We’ll see you on the Golden Path.

Transcript

[A]

Today on the show, we're holding down Alt shift, okay? And X on our keyboards is that.

[B]

That's like cutting with formatting. What does that do?

[A]

I actually don't know what that shortcut is for.

[C]

It's a mystery.

[B]

It's a mystery. Oh, no. Do you. You know what it does?

[C]

That's for me to know, to discover. I guess you'll just have to go and press Alt Shift X on every different program to see what happens.

[A]

Fine. You know what? I'm gonna.

[B]

Oh, shit. I deleted the mainframe.

[C]

Delete system 32. It actually transfers all of your money into my bank account. It's this little macro I got figured out. I have all of your crypto now.

[B]

My ethereum or whatever.

[C]

I've stolen your bored apes. It's the perfect crime.

[B]

They're so high.

[C]

I've derailed us already.

[B]

And wearing hats.

[A]

I had such huge plans for my dogecoin. And now it's all.

[B]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[A]

And my name's Abub.

[B]

Oh. And today on the show, we are going to be talking about our favorite quotes in Dune. But we are also going to be joined by a very, very special guest in a minute.

[A]

Yes, we'll introduce them very shortly.

[B]

Before we open the tall double doors and they come through with their heralded music playing loudly, we have to make Shout Out Mapes proud. So let's take care of our housekeeping.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

First up in housekeeping, folks, you all know the drill. Spoiler warning for today's episode. In today's conversation with our very special guest, we will be taking the entire Dune saga into consideration. So be warned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That there will be spoilers for all six novels by Frank Herbert and the wider Dune canon.

[B]

Yeah, if only there was like a YouTube channel somewhere you could go to to learn about the sequels of the Dune can. Anyway, too bad.

[C]

If only, if only.

[B]

Now, as always, a giant, huge, massive thank you to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Seth Redding Greer, Brad Hutchins, which has written Bard Hutchins in the script, and Kevin Mohenram. Guys, whether or not your names are spelled right doesn't matter. We appreciate you. Indeed, your support literally makes these sorts of collaborative episodes possible. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And of course, that thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level. Any amount you give is just. It means the world to us. So thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you so, so much. And Brad, if you are a bard, roll that D20 and drop some sick beats, bro.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah. Bardic inspiration on our recording session, man.

[A]

I'm inspired. Of course, our heartfelt thank yous and our gratitude extend to all of our patrons at every level. You all truly build the foundation upon which this show runs. But also a quick reminder that if you're feeling some subscription fatigue lately, like we all are these days, that's completely a. Okay, we understand. Check out the link of the show notes for Buy Me a Coffee where you can leave us a one time tip as a way to show your appreciation for the show and to help us continue to pay the bills and create incredibly fun episodes like today's.

[B]

Indeed. Now, speaking of today's episode, here's the game plan. Oh, we are being joined. Okay, Abu, let's open the doors. Big doors open up. They open and the music starts playing in the background. And in through the doors comes the ambassador from planet YouTube, alt shift X himself. Oh, my God. Hello. Welcome to the show. G'. Day.

[C]

Hi. Thank you. Thank you for the grand entrance. This is amazing. I'm stoked to be here.

[B]

Oh, we're stoked to have you. Looks like you brought an entourage of drop bears. Is that. Am I saying that right? Drop Bears.

[C]

A few Drop bears and they are all infused with spice, melange to help us.

[B]

Prescient Drop Bears. Good lord.

[C]

Yeah. No, it's hard to get away from a prescient drop bear, but we'll manage. We'll do it. We will learn to ride the Drop bear and traverse Arrakis. It'll be fantastic.

[B]

Give me my maker hooks. I'm riding this Drop Bear spectacular. Well, you're joining us today. We're going to be talking to Alt Shift X who is a phenomenal YouTuber. He's got a great YouTube channel covering all sorts of great sci fi goodness as well as fantasy and fiction generally. Talking about all sorts.

[A]

Lots of great Game of Thrones coverage.

[B]

Game of Thrones coverage is top tier. So cool. And we decided, hey, if we're going to talk to Alt Shift X about everything Dune, let's get creative. Let's talk about quotes. The best quotes in the Dune series, all six books. Let's bring it to the table. Let's talk about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So naturally we all wanted to talk about Fear is the mind killer. It's the worst Quote in Dune. Stop saying it's the best. We're avoiding the, like, super heavy handed, obvious quotes, and instead we're kind of digging deep things that are resonant personally and things that really stuck out for us as individual readers.

[A]

That's right. Okay, before we get into all of that, let's take a quick break. Let's compose ourselves. When we come back to your listener, we're getting into some of our favorite deep cut quotes in the Dune universe. With alt shift X, we have to.

[B]

Corral the drop bears. They're so. They're so fast.

[C]

They're hungry.

[B]

Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[C]

Over.

[B]

Roger. Wait. He's at an enterprise sales solution. Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more.

[A]

Start converting your B2B audience today.

[B]

Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started [e-mail] campaign terms and conditions apply. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Stay out from underneath the trees again. Drop Bears, deadly and real. Let's kick this off with alt. I'd love to hear maybe a quote that you've pulled from Dune that you consider one of your favorites. Let's talk about it. Love to hear what you brought.

[C]

Yeah, sure. I chose a quote from early on in the first book, which I think captures something, a theme that Frank has throughout all of his writing. Which is? Which is curiosity and discovery.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So early on in the first Dune book, Paul reads from the Orange Catholic Bible. And it's funny because Dune is very suspicious of religion. But the religious text in the series, the Orange Catholic Bible, is full of real wisdom. And the characters draw something real from this holy book. And so the quote is, think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear? Another world all around us. What is there around us that we cannot? And then he gets cut off.

[A]

Yeah. What a great quote.

[B]

Oh, I love it. I love it so much.

[C]

So I think this reflects Frank's love of discovery and love of learning and his belief that there is always something beyond what we think we know. June is very much about the limits of knowledge. And Frank strongly believed that it's impossible to ever really know everything. And learning is a continual adventure, exploring the new and the new and the new. And that reflects, I think, a lot of Frank's real life. The author, Frank Herbert, was a journalist and he also explored spirituality, including Zen Buddhism. He had experiences with psychedelic drugs. He had some paranormal beliefs in like, extra sensory perception and astrology.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And this is during the psychedelic 60s. And so, you know, you can see all these influences in this, in this idea that there is like a. A world beyond ordinary perception. And I think Frank's favorite moments in his life are those moments of sudden understanding and sudden revelation and a transcendental experience of expanding your consciousness. And so his fiction is full of those moments. And I think every Dune book has a moment where, like, you know, Jessica has the spice Agony, or Paul has his visions, or Teg turns into the Flash, or like there's a moment of like, sudden understanding. Like a eureka moment.

[B]

Yeah. Tag's like, I just fucking realized y' all are slow as fuck.

[C]

It's exactly moment in the Matrix when Neo just like, gains the ability to see the code of the Matrix. He peers beyond the veil and that unlocks a new understanding. And so, yeah, that feeling and that moment, I think Frank was addicted to it. He loved it. And so it's all over his fiction. The love of discovering something truly new that changes your perspective.

[B]

That's so interesting. I love, you know, I don't know that I'd ever put it together that there are those kind of like, enlightened moments in each of the books. Naturally. Like the whole story is about, among many other things as well, the capabilities of humanity and what happens at the breaking point. Amtal, what happens when you push something to its limit and then the true nature of it is revealed? And what is truth and what are words and what is perception and what are the stories we tell about ourselves? But that's so fascinating. I feel like I need to revisit the six books now, thinking about those revelatory moments, those moments of enlightenment for those different characters.

[A]

Yeah. What I find interesting is I think this is a thread that all three of us couldn't help but pull on because I also have a quote about knowledge and this hunger for knowledge and Frank's message that seeking knowledge is one of the most noble things a person can do. And Leo, I noticed that one of your quotes also is about how words can never encapsulate the true human experience and that there is a world beyond what. What we can quote, unquote, hear. Right. Like, as this orange Catholic Bible quote is stating, like, there is a world of this supernatural. There is an unexplainable magical universe that can't be quantified to some extent. It can't even be put into words to some extent. And it's clear from Frank's writings in the book, but also from interviews that Frank has done right, that he believed in that. Like you're saying altogether, he believed that there is more to the world than we are capable of understanding. And there is more to the world that is still worth understanding. And it's such a powerful message.

[C]

And there's a term for it in the glossary. It's the Alam Al mythal, the mystical world of similitudes, where all physical limitations are removed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's my goal. Every morning I'm like, listen, limitations. Let's get rid of them. I just want to get there.

[C]

On my second cup of coffee, I am entering Alam Al Methal. All physical limitations are removed.

[B]

So true.

[C]

Feel like Teg after that mind probe.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just ready to just sprint at 60 miles an hour.

[B]

It's the third cup of coffee. Really gets that going. It's funny because as you were talking, I was also thinking about. You've seen, of course, that interview with McNelly where Frank talks about predicting the cards. Right. It's clear he. He had those beliefs in that extrasensory. Like, we don't have all the answers. And there's a profound joy in seeking out those answers and admitting you don't have all of them. Yeah, that's great. So many wonderful threads there.

[C]

I agree. And I also think that there's a danger in opening your mind so much that your brain falls out. Right, sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I love the humility, this idea that there's always more to learn and. But I think that Frank was sometimes overly dismissive of the idea of knowledge, and he was overly dismissive of the idea that there's ever any certainty and there's ever experts who know things about their area of speciality.

[A]

That's totally true.

[C]

And I think it's possible that if we are always so open to doubt and change and invisible worlds beyond, we might come to a few incorrect conclusions. And I think that some of Frank's wilder beliefs might have been wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I think there's a danger in being overly enthusiastic about the mystical worlds, perhaps.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad you called that out. I actually. This segues really nicely into my first couple of quotes that I picked. So do we mind if we go to me next?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So my quotes also have to do with knowledge and the seeking of knowledge. I wanted to pair two together that I Think actually kind of complement each other.

[B]

Okay. Like a tasting. Like one's a Merlot.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly.

[C]

A flight of quotes.

[B]

Give me four small quotes.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I'm going to be in. In Paris next week, you know, for Leo's wedding and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So here's the two. Here's the two that I picked that. That I think pair nicely. A little cheese and wine action.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The cheese is from Dune Messiah. Quote how easy it was to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning. End quote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the wine that pairs so nicely with this is from Children of Dune.

[B]

Hit me with it.

[A]

This is Leto speaking in Children of Dune. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure on the edge of uncertainty. End quote.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

And those really resonate with me, and I think they're relevant to the ideas we're talking about. Thanks to Alt's quote. These are lessons that I personally have taken from the Dune saga in my first reads of the book, in my rereads of the book, in the years we've been podcasting. These are lessons that I've continued to learn from this series. Namely, that I should always be doubting how much I know. I should always remember to be endlessly curious about the world around me. And then I should seek out the joy in the discovery. Right. Learning something new, discovering something new, expanding my mind. There's joy in that. There's toil, certainly. Right. There's hard work. Oftentimes there's roadblocks and frustration. But then there's the breakthrough moment. Right. And there's the joy and the journey of all of that. And then I think on a wider sense, in a more honestly, in a more political sense, to question anyone who does claim to have all the answers, that very much falls in line with Frank's warnings about charismatic leaders and institutions. And I mentioned it earlier, but I think this quote really goes along with Leo's quote about learning that he's going to share later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I really. I'm a huge proponent of education and education reform. And I do think these lessons that Frank is imparting with quotes like this is some of the most important things that a good education can teach you. Great teachers and great mentors will teach you not answers. They will teach you to fall in love with learning and seeking out answers. They will teach you to understand that you will never know it all. And ideally, they'll be the people in your lives who light this flame of curiosity inside you that hopefully lasts you your entire lifetime. And if a teacher or A mentor gives you those three things. They have given you invaluable gems that will shine brightly for the rest of your life. If a teacher is just dumping answers into your brain, you are not getting much value out of that. At least according to Frank Herbert, but also in my personal opinion as well.

[B]

Yeah, naturally, as a child, you are drawn to certain subjects and not to others, but in retrospect, so much of it comes down to the instructor. Yeah. And it was only later, with the help of inquisitive friends, that I realized, oh, yeah, chemistry is dope as hell. I thought it was, like, boring and memorizing weird little hexagons, but, like, turns out it's like, kind of everything.

[A]

Were those inquisitive friends Walter White by any chance?

[C]

Yeah, it's about growth and decay, then transformation, I heard, right.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, once. Once my friends really started delivering product, I was sold. I was on board. Chemistry, the fucking best. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's that. There's that quality of. Even when I was being trained as a teacher teaching classes, one of the most impactful lessons I learned as a teacher was to guide people into asking the right sorts of questions rather than just handing them answers, rather than just showing them where to go to reconnect it to familiar experience, and then to allow them to build up that scaffolding so they have a really strong base when they go and explore somewhere else.

[C]

On that idea of knowledge as an unending adventure on the edge of uncertainty. It reminds me of an analogy that the author Frank Herbert used in interviews where he talked about knowledge as being like a bubble or a balloon that is inflating and expanding. And as we learn more, we expand and we grow our knowledge. And so the surface of the. Of the balloon keeps expanding outwards. But as we learn more, we are more and more exposed to the unknown. Like the outside of the balloon, the surface is more and more exposed to more unknown what's outside and beyond our knowledge. And so the idea that no matter how much we learn, we're always more and more interacting with the unknown. And I love how Frank Herbert made this literal in the later Dune sequels with the scattering, where the universe expands outwards and humanity runs out into the universe and becomes a whole bunch of different things. And as a result of our literal physical expansion into the universe, humanity encounters more weird stuff like the One of Many Faces and the Cat people and the honored matre dominatrices. And so Frank Herbert took that bubble analogy and he made it literal. By saying, if we physically go out there, we're gonna meet cat people and it's gonna be weird. You know, that's what good fiction should do, is it should take these abstract analogies and it should make them real in a way that we can really process.

[A]

So, yeah, I love that. So well put.

[B]

I was just thinking today, as we were kind of gathering quotes, I was thinking about Heretics and chapter five of Heretics, where you're on Planet Tleilax for the first time. And what str on our, like, reread of the books as we're doing our book clubs was that Frank does seem to have sort of a sense as an author of the barometer of how much people feel like they're encountering the weird. Right. When you read Dune for the first time, he is not kind. The first hundred pages are kind of awful. You got Kwisatz Haderachs being thrown around. You've got, like, Bene Gesserit. Nothing's explained. You just kind of have to, you know, knuckle down, get through it. Yeah, but by book, like four, by God, Emperor of Dune, you've seen some weird shit. So I feel like, as a reader, you go, okay, yeah, I'm pretty. Listen, I'm unshakable. I can't be shaken. That's not possible anymore. And then he's like, yeah, hold my Spice beer. Let's put you on Planet Tleilax, where they're like, no. 1 in the Wecht of Gondola, across all of the poindas and the. And it's like, what am I reading? What is this? And there's a real. I think it's brilliant because to your point, the universe is bigger now. And as it gets bigger, we as the reader get to experience stuff we've never encountered. Even though we might have spent 2,000, 3,000 pages in this. Immersed in this environment, it now feels alien. Even though it's like the Tleilaxu have been around, you know, since the beginning. It's. I love that idea. The expanding balloon, making herself vulnerable. He seems kind of an optimistic person, though, doesn't he? Like, I feel like his. His desire for us to expand into that unknown is. He's not warning necessarily against that. He's warning against anything that would stop that from happening. So I do feel like he's pretty optimistic about what the future could hold, isn't he?

[C]

I think Frank has a lot of faith in humanity. Like, I think the one thing that Frank really believes in is. Is the human mind. And the human spirit and the ability of humanity to overcome whatever's going to challenge us. I love what you said about that chapter on Tleilax as well. I hadn't thought of it, but it really is like the same device as the early chapters of Dune. It is the same thing of throwing us into an unfamiliar place and throwing unfamiliar words at us, because I think the whole Dune series is an exercise in getting the reader comfortable with not understanding things and being uncomfortable and confused. And Dune is an exercise in training us to face the unknown, which is the very message of the series. So, yeah, it works really nicely.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. All right, Leah, how about we go to you next?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'd love to hear what quote you pulled that you wanted to share.

[B]

Happy to. Happy to share the first one. And you already mentioned it, so I'll get this out of the way. The first quote I wanted to share is an epigraph from early in the first book. It's like the chapter nine or something. But this epigraph really stuck with me. Like, I remember reading it and just being so moved by it, and really, it kind of sticking. So I wanted to. I felt this was an appropriate one to start on. Here's the quote. Muadib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn. It is shocking to find how many people do not believe they can learn and how many more believe learning to be difficult. Muad'dib knew that every experience carries its lesson. End quote. Dude, into my 30s, I'm still astounded at how paralyzed so many people are by not starting that hobby or starting that thing or doing the thing. Because it's like, oh, I don't think I'm gonna be able to, or it'd be hard, or it's just not accessible to me. And I'm like, we live in an era where everything is the most accessible to anyone ever. Like, this is the most accessible era. During COVID quarantine, I learned embroidery. I was just like, oh, find a kid online and mail order it. And I did, and it was great. And now I have this whole new appreciation for this whole art form that humanity has been doing for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I haven't studied the history of embroidery. I'm sorry. But the point is, Frank, clearly, you know, alt, you've talked about this a lot. Frank wore so many hats in his life. Like, he did so many different things over his many years. From speechwriting. I Wrote a few here, but I'm sure you even know more than I do. He was a speechwriter. He was. He farmed mushrooms on his. On his own for fun in, I think, Washington. He was a journalist, a photojournalist. He apparently he oyster dived for a bit and among other things. Am I missing any big ones?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, he was an environmental activist and worked in Washington D.C. for politicians. He did a lot of different things. He invented a new kind of wind turbine. Yeah, he was an actual. Like he's got patented inventions that he helped make. Yeah, he built his own little.

[A]

Oh, he was also. He was also an author.

[B]

Oh, what did he write?

[A]

Did you guys know that one?

[C]

He also found the time to write a few of the best known stories in Western literature.

[B]

I think I have them both here. So his two popular ones, right. Heaven Makers by Frank Herbert and the Dosati Experiment by Frank Gerbert. That's what we're talking about, right?

[C]

Everyone knows those ones. Yeah.

[B]

It's what. That's why Villeneuve is stopping after this. He really wants. It was all of this. The first three movies were just building.

[A]

Up to the Desati Experiment movie still.

[B]

Starring Timothee Chalamet for some reason in every role.

[C]

I mean, I'd watch it.

[B]

I'd watch it.

[A]

Yeah, I'd watch the fuck out of that.

[B]

But I bring up his many hat wearings because. And before we were recording, you and I were talking about wearing many different hats. I can see that he's bringing some of that experience to this. You have no experience diving for oysters. And then you learn, and then you know how to do it. And you do that enough with enough different things you learn that you can learn. And it's a lesson that some people get to later in life. It's a lesson I was very fortunate to learn very early in life. And generally it is so beneficial to see the world as this. This like buffet of opportunities. And I think that that idea of Muad'dib learning quickly because he knew how to learn, he trusted that he could learn. And that, that big thesis, I think is so powerful. So I just. As a PSA for people out there, if you end up with extra bandwidth, you know, between like doom scrolling and whatever on your phones, try out a new foreign hobby, just literally try it. Like, it's so healthy to have like a little creative hobby, do some video editing, do a. I don't know, make some music, do something for fun. Because I feel like a lot of Frank's books can double as Like a call to action for certain philosophies or certain beliefs. You know, don't fall for populist leaders and stuff like that, but also embrace the joy of living and find those experiences. You know, ask the questions and be curious and enjoy and find beauty and be in love. Like, those are things that he. I clearly believe strongly in. And I like this quote a lot for kind of encapsulating that a bit.

[A]

Yeah, this one has always resonated with me as well.

[B]

So that's my first quote. Let's toss it back to you Alt. I see a couple more that you've got here. What do you want to hit us with next?

[A]

Yeah, hit us with the next one.

[C]

Sure. Yeah. Well, I love a lot of those quotes at the start of chapters in June, like, that learning one. Because I feel like in those quotes, Frank often just breaks character, and he's just, like, yelling at the reader directly. Like, it's kind of dropping the pretense of, oh, this is a fictional story.

[B]

Hey, guys. Frank Herbert here.

[C]

Yeah, just. Yeah, hi, Frank here. Now, here's what you need to do, Sonny Jim. You need to go out and learn embroidery, you know, because, like, that quote about.

[A]

Learn to smash that, like, button.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hit the notification bell.

[C]

I mean, I was gonna say, like, you know, you can learn something new. This episode was sponsored by Brilliant. You can go and learn coding today at Brilliant, using code Gomjabbar.

[B]

Excellent. Not a real code. Don't try it.

[C]

Yeah, so Frank sometimes breaks character because, like, you know, the fiction is a device to send a message. But every now and then, Frank just sort of grabs us by the shoulders and shakes us because he feels like we are, you know, sometimes we are too dense to actually understand what Frank's trying to say, because in our defense, Frank is sometimes a little bit circuitous. He's a little bit abstract. He's a little bit dense. So every now and then, like, you know, like, I feel like each Dune sequel is often just attempting to clarify the message of the previous book.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. I forgot something. I forgot something.

[C]

And one more thing. And so, like, you know, June one is about how the heroic leader Paul is a disaster. And then, you know, the second June book is Frank saying, no, but really, that's like, really, he's. It's not good that he's the emperor. He's like Hitler. Guys, guys. Timothy Chalabay is like Hitler. Like, that's what the second book is.

[B]

He's blind superhero Hitler.

[C]

And then the third book is about, like, oh, we've got to create a God emperor to, you know, shepherd the human race through oppression. And most people reading that are like, huh. So then Frank wrote an entire fourth book which is grabbing us by the shoulders and saying, this is what I mean by a tyrant, two rules. And this is why. This is why it's meaningful.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah, you're so right Alt. Yeah.

[C]

So this quote is from Children of Dune and it's a speech by the preacher and the preacher is in fact secretly Paul Atreides, who survived his apparent death in the second book, Dune Messiah. And so this is a sermon that the preacher gives where I feel like it's basically Frank Herbert as a self insert character. I feel like the preacher is basically Frank. He's an irate old man yelling about philosophy for all of us who are too dense to get the subtext in the previous books. And so the preacher says, abandon certainty. That's life's deepest command. That's what life is all about. We are a probe into the unknown, into the uncertain. Why can't you hear Muaddib? If certainty is knowing absolutely an absolute future, then that's only death disguised. Such a future becomes. Now he showed you this. So I love the frustration in this quote. Like the preacher is saying, don't you get it? Like, don't you get what Paul was trying to say in the previous two Dune books? What he's trying to say is, is that we must not get sucked into any narrow minded way of thinking. We must not get limited by dogma of any kind. The dogma of political fervour, of religious fervour, of ecological ideology, of like technological thinking or of prescience. Like I was quite confused when I was first reading Dune and there's all this talk about prescient visions of the future. And I'm like, why are we talking about magical future sight? Like why is this relevant to this philosophical book? And I think the prescient visions are a metaphor for plans and assumptions and ideology and assuming that things will happen the way that you think, which is something that all of us do. And so I think that what the preacher is saying here is that, you know, not only is that narrow minded thinking destructive, but it's also boring because if you truly could control and predict the future, what's the point of living the future if you already know it? So it's not only an intellectual argument warning us against assumptions and planning and narrow minded thinking. It's also an emotional argument of if we truly could know and control the Future, there would be no joy in it, because joy for Frank comes from discovery and learning and surprises and all of that. All of that learning, discovery stuff that we were just talking about.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So I love this moment where Frank just. Just shouts at us and just sort of says his thesis in a really direct way.

[B]

It's crazy that it was all caps in the book. Like, I thought it was such a bold choice, but also from a character perspective, Like, I can't help but think about Paul thinking about Chani in that moment as the preacher going, I saw the future and I was certain of it, and that was her death. Such a future becomes now. It is so tragic and it's so heartbroken and it's so frustrated because he knows that he traded the universe for Chani, and now he's pissed that no one took his words seriously when he was. When he was the revered, supposedly head of this massive religion and empire. It's. Oh, it's brilliant. It's. And that's so, so true. Frank just about writes. Signed, Frank Hurt. No, no, no. Scratch it out. Scratch it out. Scratch it out. Signed the preacher. That's what the preacher was saying. Not me.

[C]

Not I. Yeah, this quote does have the feeling of an all caps tweet for sure.

[A]

Wait, hold on. How many characters are we talking here? One, two, three.

[B]

Oh, that's. That's the best way to count the characters for sure. You guys don't. One by one. Two. Is there a better way? I lost count. I lost count.

[A]

Wait, I gotta restart my typewriter. My typewriter's glitching. Guys, can we.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I say a tweet, but. But since Frank Herbert was born in 1920, this is a bit more of like a photocopy on a floppy disk or something, which hits different, I think.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It was all caps into his floppy disk and no one got it. Yeah.

[A]

Such a great quote, though, Alt, and I love your interpretation of the quote. Preacher certainly feels like a stand in for Frank Herbert to get his ideas more directly to the reader, deliver them more directly to the reader through the vehicle of a character speaking to other characters in the story. And I love your analysis and breakdown of this quote and why it's so impactful. It so very much supports the big themes in the Dune saga, these warnings against dogma and the celebration of the new and unexpected and how that is, in Frank Herbert's eyes, the joy of life. And the only reason to live life is to experience those new and unexpected things. Yeah, it's A wonderful quote that's so in line with all the themes in Dune.

[B]

It's really struck me recently how much the last three books, like, the first couple of books, they're all these layers, right? And the deeper down you get, there are these sorts of, like, warnings and messages. The last three books really do seem to be a call to action about joy and love and, like, the meaning of life and, like, the kind of some really basic things, but things that become all the more important, especially as Frank was going through his own life as someone who was getting older. And then Beverly passed away, I think shortly before Heretics was published. I think that's the timeline. But, yeah, his call to action becomes so much more just kind of like, live, be. Well, there's a few quotes I wanted to pull that I ended up not, but that were about just like life is about, like, you have. You just have to live. You just have to be the one living. You can't be passive, things like that.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I agree that part of the context is the death of Frank's wife, Bev, because Frank really did struggle to go on living after his beloved wife died. And there is so much of that in Chapter House and Heretics as well. And, you know, I think through the character of a Drady and her journey coming to terms with love and emotion. Because those books explore how the sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit are taught to never love and are taught to not indulge in emotions because they must be harsh and cold and logical. But concludes that, no, there's no point if you're going to be completely cold. You must embrace your humanity and your emotion and your love, or else why are we doing all this? And that's a theme that is grappled with by the God Emperor Leto and Hui, and that's grappled with by Jessica and Thu Fear right at the very start of the series. So I love how that is explored throughout the series.

[A]

Yeah. Dune is so often referred to as a book that's steeped in philosophy and religion and politics, but I think this message does so often get overshadowed that it is also a very human book that is about love and what it means to live and love and be human. And you're so right Alt and Leo, you touched on this, too. Like many of the characters are essentially, when you boil it down and take away all of the religion, politics, dogma, manipulation, backstabbing. It is characters struggling to figure out how to live and love at the.

[B]

End of the day, also how to if only there was another verb. Laugh. Laugh a little, you know, like. Like, if only. I mean, that's the biggest takeaway.

[A]

I believe that's the biggest takeaway, man.

[B]

We should. We should do merch. Kind of a love laugh, live, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Love, Love. Snot, Spice.

[B]

Spice.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

That's. Oh, that's so much better. It doesn't alliterate, but it's great.

[A]

Yeah, let's get that engraved on a piece of driftwood. I think, Leah, we can make that happen.

[B]

Sell it on our Etsy page.

[C]

Live, laugh, melange.

[B]

Hey. Okay. We're getting there. Wow. Hold.

[A]

You should be holding onto these ideas you're throwing. You're throwing freebies out there.

[C]

Hey, I'm getting 33% of the merch.

[B]

Deal. Absolutely fair. Deal. Deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, my God. We are going to take a quick break, but please, listener, don't go anywhere. When we're back, we've got more Dune quotes for you. That's why he clicked play. And we're jumping back in in just a minute. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the Internet last year, and I think this season's lineup is even cooler.

[C]

And so does my wife, who keeps.

[B]

Stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season.

[C]

And Abercrombie's newest arrivals shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online and in store.

[B]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[A]

All right, welcome back, folks. Let's continue working through our list of deep cut Dune quotes that resonate with us. Leo, how about we hop to you next for your second quote that you wanted to share?

[B]

Sure. So my second quote. Oh, my God. Yeah, My second quote comes from God, emperor of Dune. And I think I even shared this in an episode recently. But it really is one of my favorite little moments because it's also one of the few times that Leto basically acknowledges that he has grown and has kind of like changed his philosophy a little bit or that he's matured as a Character, which feels so rare. Like Leto, too, feels like the moment he becomes the God Emperor in Children of Dune, in some ways, it feels like he is just that for the whole rest of the book. And he, similar to Paul as the preacher, kind of knows that the end is coming. Doesn't exactly know the specifics, but it's just kind of resigned to it. So the fact that he acknowledges that he grew, it all sticks with me. But in particular, I think this quote's really powerful. Leto is speaking to Malky and Moneo about the earlier statement. So the earlier statement is, quote, the present is distraction, the future a dream. Only memory can unlock the meaning of life. End quote. It sounds beautiful. Again, great driftwood engraving right over the couch. Everyone's loving it. They're like, oh, my God, this was.

[A]

Like, pinned on his Tumblr page for a thousand years.

[C]

Yeah, it's, like, on an Instagram image in a really nice font, and it's got a hundred thousand likes.

[B]

Yeah, everyone retweets. There's just like, I. They retweet it from Instagram. It's crazy. Yeah. But he says, hey, isn't that nice? But then he goes, no, but I was. I was kind of full of shit. Here's the quote. My words were a foolish lie. I knew it at the time, but I was infatuated with the beautiful words. No memory unlocks no meanings without anguish of the spirit, which is a wordless experience. There are no meanings anywhere. End quote. I just love that idea. There's another quote that I get, I think gets thrown around a lot, which is the. It's difficult to live in the present, pointless to live in the future, and impossible to live in the past. Another banger, another great quote that's from God Emperor as well. He must have been on his mind at the time. So. So that quote, right? I think for me, a lot of, like, God Emperor heretics in Chapter House start really looking at epistemology as a whole, kind of on a cosmic scale. Like, what is truth in a universe dominated by orders that have memories that stretch back literally tens of thousands of years in this world where so many people have a pretty proper claim to, like, I've got the truth on my side. What does it mean to have the truth on your side? And who's writing the history books, even as the history books are like living, breathing beings walking around next to you? And I love that. I love not only the limitations of language, and I love that as something to think about and engage with, but also from, like, a Historical standpoint. I'm going to hit you with a bonus quote.

[C]

Hello?

[B]

Quote. Throughout our history, the most potent use of words has been to round out some transcendental event, giving that event a place in the accepted chronicles, explaining the event in such a way that ever afterward, we can use those words and say, this is what it meant. End quote. Again, the idea that history is this sort of narrative that we've spun, and when you get so lost in it, you get so caught up in it, that is a form of dogma and a form of stagnation and a form of not seeking out the new and the mysterious. And that also ties into this, one of the themes we've been talking about today, the wordless truth and love and life and being. Being human. I love it. I mean, I think God, Emperor of Dune, was one of those. The first books where I was, like, highlighting almost every. Every page I had something highlighted because there was a lot there that I found beautiful. And also ironic because Frank's life as an author is so defined by the words he's weaving that for him to cast such disparaging ideas on, like, oh, it's just words. Words are bullshit. Don't worry about it. Live a wordless life in the present, in the immediate now. And you go, but aren't you a fucking author? You wrote De Sadia, Experiment and Heaven Makers, among others, I've heard. Yeah.

[C]

I love the irony that Frank Herbert is a writer who distrusts words, because Frank loved writing and speaking, and he read poetry, and he was a great conversationalist. He loved nothing better than yapping truly great AI. But in the same way that Frank was distrustful of any system that limits our thinking, such as religion, technology, politics, language is another one. And he was influenced by concepts of general semantics and a lot of intellectuals at the time who argued that language is yet another system that limits the way that you think. And so Dune is full of the dangers of language being used and abused through powers like the voice and, you know, the language of religion, the way the language intersects with all those other different kinds of power structures. So I love how, yeah, Frank, he loves words, but. But he also repeatedly tells us that sometimes you just got to go out into the desert and take some acid or, you know, sometimes you just got to chill out and, you know, experience something.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because he talks, as you said, Leo, a lot about wordless truths that must be experienced that cannot be explained with. With words.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The, like, wordless camaraderie that he and Chena had in a Moment in God, Emperor of Dune, is also one that, like, really sticks out to me. Yeah. Wordless experiences. They're all over when you start looking for them.

[A]

Yeah. I think your bonus quote, Leo, also resonates with me. I'm a bit of a history buff, and I really like that in the latter books, Frank starts really exploring this idea, especially through Leto 2, you know, who really embodies all of, quote, unquote, all of human history right within himself. I really love when Frank starts asking the questions of why humans write history the way they do, what it means to them, what it means to write the history in that way, and why there is this human tendency to create sort of neat narratives. Right. We want easy cause and effect so that we can look back at things and go, that explains that. Okay, that makes sense. We figured that one out. There's this, like, innate human desire to do that with historical events. And I really love that Frank pushes the reader to question that to some extent. Right. To ask, what more was there to this history that was never written down? Perhaps what was never recorded here, that was never captured in the words on the page, never captured by a historian. Leto out here is burning historians left and right, as we're told in God Emperor. But I do think there is some validity to asking, this is what we know about this history. How do we also understand this in the context of what we don't know about this history and hold both of those truths in our minds at the same time? That, to me, is a really powerful message around historical thinking and examination. Again, some irony here, considering how much Frank leans on history and tradition from the research that he does for these books.

[C]

It's interesting that the fourth book, God Emperor of June, is itself framed as a historical artifact because we have the journals of Leto being stolen by the rebels. And so, in a sense, the entire book itself is a historical artifact of people trying to understand that one weird time in history that a giant worm ruled the universe for 3,000 years. And that's one of the cool things about the series, is that it stretches over millennia. And so the series is constantly reflecting not only on how we define the future, but also how we define the past.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God, what a great call. Also, the epigraphs where he's grabbing us by the shoulders and screaming at us. Always delivered through the framework of an in universe character who said this or wrote this in a book or said. Which adds, of course, that extra layer. We talk about this with the Dune Encyclopedia all the time. Why is this Being communicated. Why would Irulan have written this down? Yeah, and that adds a whole new layer of speculation and life to these words that aren't just coming at us from this kind of third person omniscient voice. It's coming from the universe, from the characters who have their motivations and might want to say, you know, Irulan might be the character to say, as she does famously, and I think one of the last epigraphs of Dune that you might praise Muadib, but remember, he's the one that puts the skin of his enemies as drum skins. You know, she. She might be one to say, all right, let's. Let's pump the fanfare a bit. It's getting out of hand. This guy killed a lot of people. Like, let's. Let's be clear. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Oh, my God. As a historical document, that's such a great point.

[C]

Yeah. Dune from the start is placed in a historical context because of those quotes which tell us that, yeah, Yue is the traitor and Leto was gonna die and Muad'dib will ascend. So from the very beginning, we're looking at Dune backwards from the future at the events of Dune as historical events. Like, dude created a fictional historiography, a whole set of historical books that don't exist. Like bloody Jorge Borges over here is making up fictional books in order to contextualize the actual fictional book that he's writing. Like, it's a little bit Tolkien esque the way that he creates this, but he hates historians. But. Yeah, but also he will burn historians. Yeah, it's amazing.

[B]

It's brilliant.

[A]

It's brilliant. It really is.

[B]

Oh, I love it. Well, so, okay, that was my second quote. Abu.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've been holding out on us. What's your second quote?

[A]

Okay, I have two here and I gotta decide which one to go with.

[B]

They're both bangers. They're both.

[A]

They are both good. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna punt one by just sharing it and moving on quickly. Okay, I have one here from God, emperor of Dune. All rebels are closet aristocrats. End quote, bars. But I think we've already sort of touched on some political ideas and themes. I want to get to this other quote that I want to share because it starts talking about art, which is an idea that Leo and I simply cannot stop talking about. So this one's also from God, emperor of Dune. And this, gosh, this one is beautiful quote. You always know the creative because it is revealed openly. Concealment betrays the existence of another force entirely. End quote.

[B]

I love it. The gatekeeping versus the.

[A]

Yeah, this is Leto talking about creativity and the expression of creativity and how you can tell something that is coercive or manipulative versus something that is a pure expression of human emotion or human thought, thus being a creative output from a genuine human being.

[B]

Yeah, because he's talking about, like, the Ixians, and they're like, oh, aren't they creative? Because they invent a bunch of shit. And he's like, no, they've got a whole other force at play here. Yeah. Because they're creating, but they're hiding it and clutching at it with just this, like, bizarre. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

And, Leo, you and I on this podcast have at this point, spent countless hours talking about the value and importance of creating art. Right. Expressing yourself. I think we're both very passionate about creating. I think both of us kind of have this itch that, like, if we're not doing something creative, I don't know about you, I guess, but personally, like, I start to get a little stir crazy. And this quote just is such a powerful reminder to me that when I pour myself into the work that I do, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a video, whether it's some piece of writing, whatever I'm creating, whatever outlet I choose, my best work is always going to be when I am open, when I am honest, when I am vulnerable on two fronts, when I am open, honest and vulnerable with myself and what I'm putting into the art. And then on the delivery side of it, when I am open, honest, and vulnerable with my audience or whoever the intended receiver of that piece of art is. If I maintain that open honesty on both ends of that spectrum, that is when I create my best work. That is when I am pouring the most of myself into the art. And I typically walk away from things like that. Incredibly proud of the thing I've created. We recently on the feed released this audio drama, which was very experimental. We were both a little nervous about taking on this challenge.

[C]

Yeah. The God Emperor rating drama. Yeah, that looks awesome.

[A]

And it was challenging. It took us over a month of production just to create a very small, you know, eight minute scene.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With voice actors and sound design and music and cinematic composition. But this was. This was a challenge where I was like, let me just allow myself to, like, feel what I'm feeling while I'm making this. And then when I put it out into the world, I'll just tell people that, like, this was my goal in making this, and this is how I felt making it. And it's. It truly, I think in the five years of making the show, it's up there in the, like, top three things that I'm most proud we've ever created. And this quote certainly is one that stays with me from God, emperor of Dune, about what it means to truly be creative.

[C]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'll just say the. The sound effects, like, some of the sound design you did for that little. It still blows me out of the park. Like, I know I was a part of making it, but I'm still like, whoa, that's so good. But I also going back to my quote about, like, Leto saying his words were. Is infatuated with beautiful words. I think that's such an experience that people who'd make art get wrapped up in. How much do you fall in love with the way that you deliver your ideas and your honesty? And you start going, oh, I love. Oh, I love my poetry. I love my words. They're so beautiful. And it's like, okay, but are you saying something now? Honestly? Are you sure? Are you being vulnerable? Are you exploring? Are you discovering? Are you living in this present moment? Or are you performing what is safe and impressive? And, like, as an artist, I get less and less interested in the, like, safe, impressive shit when people are like, look at all the fucking riffs I can do as a singer. And it's like, okay, great, but sing me a song about Heartbreak Dog. Like, come on, lay something on the line. Be present in this moment. Drop the riffs. I don't give a shit. It's all virtuosic. Anyway, I'm so with you on. I mean, unsurprisingly, again, we've talked about this 40 alt. How do you feel about that?

[A]

I'm very curious, because, alt, you're also a creative person. You're also putting out these incredible works, and I would love a little insight into what's going on in your brain when you do that.

[C]

Sure. I mean, you talked about vulnerability, Abu in creativity, and I think words that I would add to that are sincerity and authenticity. Because as you guys said, like, you know, it's easy to get lost in the source with technical accomplishments and making, you know, intricate, highly skilled creations, whether it's in, you know, music or writing or anything. Yeah, but all of that's pointless unless there's some. Something being communicated that is felt on a human level and being able to give some. Give the listener or give the reader something that is sincere and true and vulnerable. So I agree very much with what you guys said. It's very easy to get lost in the technical side of things when you also need to give something human.

[B]

Do you have. Do you have an art form that you're kind of experimenting with or that you. That you've done in the past, that you. That you feel good about?

[C]

Oh, well, you know, I'm old Shift X. All I know how to do is. Is edit videos.

[B]

Right. Well, there you go. Yeah, okay, fair enough.

[C]

You'd have to. You'd have to talk to my. My. The half cousin Alt Schwift X if you wanted to see some Hell yeah. Cringy rap songs. Or perhaps you've even heard of my. My estranged half cousin Martin Cordial, who's been known to write fiction, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

[B]

Yeah, neither would we.

[A]

Neither heard of them.

[B]

Never heard of him. Excellent. It's fascinating to hear from your perspective as well, because we're huge fans of what you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we've been blabbing forever. Did you have a. Do you have another quote to hit us with? Alt.

[C]

Sure. Yeah. So I love Frank Herbert's collaboration and love for his wife Bev. Bev helped Frank write and was always his editor and gave him feedback. And she wanted to be a writer herself, but she kind of sacrificed her own writing career in order to work so that Frank could write his great novels, the Disadi Experiment and the God Makers.

[B]

It's the only two I know.

[C]

And, you know, Frankie in interviews has talked about the importance of Bev, but he also subtly slipped something into Dune as well. So in the many lengthy appendices in Dune, there's all those long explications of religious history and etymology and ecology. And there's a little line in there that's talking about some obscure religious history that says, quote. There is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nissai. So these are two obscure historical characters who aren't really relevant. But talking about how the second wife was the real creative force behind the male spokesman, that alludes to Frank and Bev, who was Frank's second wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I think that Frank is acknowledging here that Bev has a larger role in the creation of Dune than people may think. I also think that it's cute that the names Ohashi and Nisai, they sound kind of Japanese to my ear, which reflects a passion that Frank had for Japanese culture and language and. And food and everything. Because Frank had a bit of a weeaboo period most of the 70s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It becomes really apparent in God, Emperor of Dune.

[C]

So I'm not sure why Frank felt the need to be quite this subtle in acknowledging the contributions of his wife. Maybe he should have been a bit more direct and explicit in acknowledging his wife and acknowledging the sources that he drew from. Yeah, of course, for Dune. But I think this is a cute line.

[B]

Beautiful call out. I love that.

[A]

Yeah. And actually, alt, you, you have one last quote here in the script that I see. This, to me, feels like a really beautiful note to end on. Do you want to share this one?

[C]

Sure, yeah. So, I mean, we've talked a lot about philosophy and creativity and. And technology and politics and religion and the dangers thereof and language and time and etymology and epistemology and drugs and drop bears. But in the final book, the year before Frank's death, he uses the main character, Adradi, to say, after all of that, it's good to be alive. Remember that. And I think that's a reminder that Frank's telling to himself and it's a reminder that he's telling us. And it's connected to all that stuff we said about, you know, you can't just deny emotions and deny love. You have to just revel in the choice of being alive. And so. So none of the philosophy, none of the politics means anything unless we remember to enjoy and treasure being alive together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

A beautiful message at the heart of.

[B]

These stories also, just from the best character, the best character delivered to deliver that message, like Odrade, with her background of having sea child, this core innocence and love and attachment to her foster parents and that thing that the Bene Gesserit could never get rid of, the fact that she is the one that delivers that is also just so fucking powerful and so beautiful. That's such a great call out. What a. What a good quote is. So much better than Fear is the Mind Killer. Man.

[C]

I can't believe we did a whole episode about Dune quotes and we didn't say the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience.

[B]

That's a good one. It's a good one because that's kind.

[C]

Of the same message as well, isn't it?

[A]

It is, yeah.

[B]

I almost legitimately prefaced everything I said with like, my favorite quotes from Dune Change Day to Day based on like, whatever book I've read most recently. And it just continues to evolve. I go back, I reread, I discover new Ones I have. If you're. If you're game, fellas. Lightning round. Because I do know. I do know. Somewhere out there, dear listener has a quote in mind. And they're so bummed that we didn't say it. Yeah, it's not. Fear is the mind killer. Listeners who are hoping for that. You're wrong. You're wrong and bad. So I have some lightning round ones.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Wrong and bad.

[C]

They are.

[B]

Try harder. Try harder, listener. Go on. Every time on a Reddit thread, long list, someone's like, my favorite fears. I'm like, oh, okay. Ick. So lightning round ones now, I just gathered these.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Looking at the list, do any of these jump out at y'? All?

[A]

Yes. I'd like to start. Here's my favorite one from this lightning round list that you've gathered. Here we go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It was only when she saw the rope come snaking down that Nayla had her orgasm.

[B]

Yo, same girl. That guy climbs rocks. Well. Oh, boy, what a good moment.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I think it's funniest if we just don't contextualize.

[B]

No, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Just a great moment in a.

[B]

Those who know.

[C]

No, yeah, just a very normal moment in a very normal book.

[B]

Here's. Listen. Another normal moment from another normal book. There was an adult beef swelling in his loins.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

And he felt his mouth open, holding, clinging to the girder shape of ecstasy. Then with a sigh, a lingering ground swelling. So many swellings. Sweetness. A collapse. End quote. No context. You're welcome. Wow.

[A]

I, too.

[C]

Collapsed beef swelling and girder shape are both crimes against the English language.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Okay, everyone, show your beef swelling tattoos on three. One, two, three. Okay.

[C]

This guy has more Hugo awards than we ever will. Yes, Frank. Beef sweet swelling. Herbert. My God.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Do any of these jump out at you all?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, how long have we got? I mean. I mean, one thing that I feel very strongly in the year of our Lord 2025, is this line about the dangers of AI that Frank wrote in the 60s or 70s. Quote, what do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking. There's the real danger.

[A]

Oh, my God. My God.

[C]

Emperor.

[A]

Such a great quote.

[C]

And obviously, you know, we're living in a time where generative AI is being pushed on us by all of the most powerful corporations in the world. And. Yeah, what do these tools do? They make us do more things with less thought. And that might be a really bad idea.

[A]

Yeah, maybe not the Trade off. We want to be making as the human race.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, man. Yeah, great point there. We talked about that a lot recently in Dune and Artificial Intelligence episode and just it was a little bit of pressing himself, I think, almost like those drop bears. So as we sort of wrap up, we want to give you a chance, Alt, to plug your. I mean, again, I would be shocked if our listeners didn't already know you, but I would love for you to introduce yourself. Where can people find what you've got going on? Do you have something you're working on right now, you're proud or excited about that you want to plug? This is your time. Please. We would love to love for you to spread the word.

[C]

Sure, yeah. Well, we've got videos about Dune and A Song of Ice and Fire and many other series on YouTube, the channel alt Shift X and you're welcome to check them out. And we do have videos about Dune in the works. We're also going to be making videos about the Game of Thrones spin off shows that are coming next year. So, yeah, you're welcome to come check it out. But yeah, look, I'm just happy to be here on the Gom Jabbar podcast. Thanks so much for having me, guys.

[A]

Oh my God, it was an absolute treat. And it's always a joy to really speak to someone who's kind of on the same crazy train as me and Leo have been for five years on this podcast. You know, someone who's like, yeah, I get it. There's something with this Frank guy.

[C]

He might be onto something. Yeah, no, it's a special thing to get to talk to some other folks who have, who have been through the trenches and have also worked through Heretics and Chapter House and they know their chair dogs from their futas and they've really put some thought into what's going on in this crazy series. So, yeah, absolute pleasure to. Yeah. With you guys.

[A]

Yeah, what a joy. Thanks so much for joining us, Alt.

[B]

And we'll have to do it again very, very soon. And you know, we talked about it. It'd be fun to like collaborate on a thing from the ground up. It'd be really cool. It'd be cool to do sometime.

[C]

I'd love to.

[B]

Hell yeah. Love to hear that. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some great ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. And the two best ways hasn't changed. One is to become a patron [e-mail] gomjabbar Second, you can check out our Dune themed swag merchandise store. Those links are in the show notes and we've got some new merchandise cooking, so don't. Yeah, don't forget that. You can do that live.

[C]

Laugh, melange.

[B]

Laugh, melange.

[A]

Coming to a merch store near you.

[B]

Coming to a hand carved wooden driftwood salvage soon to you. Yeah.

[A]

Also a quick reminder here at the end, folks, we'd love to hear from you, so email us com to bar. PodcastMail.com is the best place to get in touch. Send us your thoughts and us your questions. Send us pictures of your cute pets. Send us, of course, your favorite quotes in the Dune universe and why they resonate with you so strongly.

[B]

Please. Yeah.

[A]

If your email contains fear as the mind killer, Leo will dox you. So watch out the next.

[B]

Actually, the next episode's all doxes. I'm just gonna go down the list. We're gonna go down the list one at a time.

[A]

Everyone who emailed us fear is the mind killer. Watch out. Next episode's gonna be wild. Gom jabarpodcastmail.com that's a place to get in touch and stay in touch.

[C]

Like and subscribe to the GOM Jabbar podcast.

[A]

That's my new ringtone.

[C]

You're gonna put the voice, the voice filter on that, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Bene Gesserit voice, like.

[B]

And subscribe to the GOM Jabbar podcast. Exactly. But whenever I use the voice filter, I just make my voice sound like yours. So I'm just like, I sound like all chipped X and people go, wow, I'm learning so much. But in like an entertaining way. This is great.

[C]

I'm just trying to make my voice.

[B]

Sound like Leo's and I've been trying to sound like Abu for five years and it's still not working. So annoying.

[A]

Yeah, it's not.

[B]

Thank you for the honest feedback.

[A]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just. Just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lower Party podcast network on larparty.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at lore underscoreparty. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.

[B]

ABC Wednesday. Shifting Gears is back.

[C]

He has arisen.

[B]

Tim Allen and Kat Dennings return in television's number one new comedy.

[C]

What What?

[B]

With a star studded premiere including Jenna Elfman, Nancy Travis and hey buddy. A big home improvement reunion welcome. Oh boy, that guy's a tool. Shifting gears. Season premiere Wednesday, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu and Doug.

[C]

Limu and I always tell you to.

[B]

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