The Lost Entries: History of Old Terra

Summary

Gom Jabbar: The Lost Entries – History of Old Terra

Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Episode: The Lost Entries: History of Old Terra
Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: Abu & Leo (Lore Party Media)

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Overview of the Episode

This special episode launches a new series that explores the recently discovered, unpublished manuscripts from the Dune Encyclopedia, with a focus on the "History of Old Terra" by Wesley D. Ives. Abu and Leo delve into the document’s recounting of Earth’s history as perceived by far-future Dune historians, examining how these speculative entries shape and sometimes distort the lore of the Dune universe. The episode unpacks the manuscript’s content, discusses its canonicity, critiques its perspectives, and shares rare correspondence between the author and Dune Encyclopedia editor Dr. Willis E. McNelly, revealing reasons for its omission and editorial process.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why This Entry?

• The newly uncovered "History of Old Terra" manuscript was a foundational document for establishing the Dune timeline in the Encyclopedia, but was never published in full.
• Leo explains the significance:

  "If you go back in the feed, our very first episodes of this show of Gom Jabbar were about the timeline of Dune... this entry, the history of Ulterra entry, the manuscript is the one that was used to create that timeline." (05:00)

• The manuscript is unusually lengthy compared to other entries (about 3x average), offering a sweeping history from ancient times through the far future.

2. Canonicity and Editorial Approach (07:15 - 09:11)

• The lost entries are classified as "non-canon fun expanded lore" – interesting, sometimes insightful, but not authoritative against Herbert’s novels or the published Encyclopedia.
• Leo’s "lore tier list":
  • Tier 1: Frank Herbert Novels
  • Tier 2: Dune Encyclopedia
  • Tier 3: Brian Herbert material
• Many elements of the "Old Terra" manuscript were adapted piecemeal into other published entries.

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Breakdown of the "History of Old Terra" Manuscript

3. Introduction: The Historians' Perspective

• The entry is styled as a far-future historian’s account, relying on fragmentary evidence (e.g., the Arrakis Find/Darius Blot Horde).

  "Evidence from old Terra is scarce. The planet was destroyed... in 733 AG." (10:16)

4. Solar System Profile in the Dune Timeline (11:19)

• Mars and Venus have been terraformed and assigned "similarity indexes," a metric for human habitability.

  "A similarity index of 0.75 or more means that humans can live on the planet with only moderate and self constructible life support systems." (11:26)

5. Early Human History (19,000 BG – 16,500 BG)

• Briefly covers the emergence of early city-states, often blending real and mythical elements (e.g., overestimating the scale of ancient settlements).
• Notable exaggeration:

  "These city states... were, 'approximately the size of a typical hunting preserve with populations of, of 1 million or less.'" (13:23)

6. The Western-Centric Lens (15:45 - 19:03)

• The manuscript’s history jumps rapidly from Alexander the Great to the Romans, often conflating myth with fact (e.g., treating Romulus and Remus as real figures), and is critiqued for its very Western, white historical bias.
• Abu comments:

  "I always cringe a little bit when stories, in particular sci fi stories, take an extremely Western centric view of human history..." (16:24)

7. Roman & Byzantine Empires: Communication and Soft Power (19:03 – 29:00)

• Attributes Rome’s success to control of communications:

  "If the government controlled communications, control of the empire would follow." (20:14)

• The Byzantine period is praised for shifting from military to economic and subtle conquest, drawing parallels to Asimov's Foundation:

  "Most conquests were slow, certain, and unrecognized by the victims." (27:03)
  "It was economic power applied unremittingly... that first caused the Jihad Empire to stagnate, then to fragment..." (27:23)

8. Glossing Over "The Rest" of Human History (30:13 – 36:02)

• The manuscript devotes long sections to the procession of Western powers (Spain, France, Britain, America) as "houses," largely rehashing familiar tropes and ignoring much of global history.
• Critique of Dune-lens colonial rhetoric:

  "'...explorers of the Madrid House, who first discovered and exploited the vast wealth of the Americas, which were tremendous continents with essentially no organized populace.'" (32:18)

• Real historical events (World Wars, Holocaust, etc.) are barely mentioned, with comedic inaccuracies (e.g., US nuclear use attributed to trade route disputes).

9. The Future: Migration and the "Terran Natural Park" (38:24 – 47:18)

• Humanity begins to colonize the solar system; by 13,600 BG, Earth is losing importance:

  "More than 20 billion humans live in the Sol system, while only 1 billion humans remain on old Terra itself." (39:16)

• After catastrophic wars and a planetoid strike (possibly engineered), Old Terra is converted into a “natural park” and only the tech-free, voluntary exiles (Luddites) are permitted to resettle – at a Bronze Age technological level.

10. The Luddites & Culture Loss (47:53 – 51:22)

• The manuscript speculates that these Luddites, over millennia, lose their knowledge of the outside universe and revert to "barbarian" societies. Later, during the Butlerian Jihad, these populations are resettled across the Imperium as "advisors," even founders of Houses—a plot device Abu and Leo find implausible and thematically inconsistent with Herbert’s vision.

11. The Final End of Old Terra (51:22 – 54:33)

• Under UTO the Wild (described only as "wild"), Old Terra is depopulated, its people sent to Seleucus Secundus, and Earth's moon is destroyed by collision with Europa, dooming the planet to lifelessness.

  "The battered, ruined husk of humanity's origin is now floating out there... mostly ignored." (53:06)

12. Cultural Echoes: Terrariums in the Imperium (53:44)

• Various Houses maintain "terrariums" simulating ancient Terran biomes: veldts on Giedi Prime, rainforests (House Diacrai), deserts on Arrakis, and oceanic habitats showcasing sharks and killer whales for tourists.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Western bias:

  "Shut the fuck up...it would make this a more interesting piece of writing if you encompassed more of human history that wasn’t just... very simple Western, white trajectory of history." – Abu (18:14)

• On future Luddites:

  "Voluntary exiles to prehistoric times." – Leo quoting the manuscript (42:56)

• On survival skills:

  "Are you tempted to return to Bronze Age technologies? ... We both wear glasses. This is not a good experience." – Leo & Abu (45:26)

• Editorial critique:

  "I think this article could have used a couple more editorial passes and a bit more polishing. And Ives certainly contributed great pieces to the encyclopedia. This felt like one of the weaker ones." – Abu (63:34)

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Manuscript Correspondence: Insights from the Authors

(54:54 – 62:46)

• The hosts review newly unearthed letters between Ives and McNelly.
• Ives intended to portray an "unbroken chain of empire," with world history seen as minor events between Rome and the "era of Leto."

  "All that happened between the founding of Rome and the destruction of Ceres were minor provincial disputes and rebellions..." – Ives letter (57:18)

• McNelly, in a 1981 letter, explains the manuscript's length and redundancy led to its exclusion:

  "A single long essay is a bit more formidable than several shorter ones... much as I liked reading it." (61:10)

• McNelly also notes editorial priorities: readability and relevance over exhaustive historical recapitulation.

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Notable & Fun Moments

• Leo learning about Romulus and Remus:

  "They sound like uncles from Harry Potter. I'm like, is Remus the one who dies? Like, I don't know." (20:30)

• The "video game pitch" for voluntary exiles on Old Terra evolves into a Horizon Zero Dawn anecdote. (43:52)
• Playful banter about Bronze Age survival skills, cobblers, and apothecaries. (65:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Episode Purpose & Spoiler Guide: 00:53 – 05:00
• Canonicity & Approach: 07:15 – 09:18
• Solar System & Terraformed Planets: 10:16 – 12:12
• Early Human History, Rome, Byzantium: 12:36 – 29:00
• Critique of Western Focus & Editorial Choices: 16:24, 30:13, 34:04
• Human Migration & Terran Park Era: 38:24 – 45:25
• Moon’s Destruction & Final Fate of Old Terra: 51:22 – 54:33
• Terrariums & Cultural Echoes: 53:44 – 54:52
• Author Correspondence: 54:54 – 62:46

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Tone and Style

• The episode blends scholarship and irreverent humor, faithful to the hosts’ voices. Abu is often analytical and critical; Leo more whimsical, with both poking fun at historical myopia and their own gaps in knowledge.
• The dialogue is at times cheeky (“Shut the fuck up,” “Alexander the not very creative”), self-deprecating (“We both wear glasses, this is not a good experience”), but always with a deep respect for Dune lore and critical engagement with its interpretations.

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Conclusion & Next Steps

• Abu and Leo ultimately appreciate the manuscript’s ambition and contributions to Dune lore, but agree with McNelly’s editorial judgment to select only the most relevant portions.
• More lost entries are queued for future episodes, supported by ongoing archive work.
• Listeners are encouraged to support via Patreon (for access to the primary documents), shop merch, and share their own hypothetical Bronze Age survival skills.

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Essential Takeaway:
The "History of Old Terra" lost manuscript is a bold but flawed attempt to fuse real and speculative history through the Dune lens. Its greatest value lies in exposing both the limits of in-universe historiography and the editorial challenges of worldbuilding on the scale of Herbert’s creation.

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For a deeper dive, join the Lore Party Patreon and watch for more “Lost Entries” episodes.

Transcript

[Leo]

Today on the show, we are voluntarily exiling ourselves to old Terra here. It's beautiful. Here. There's no technology. Sounds great. And there, folks, recently some lost Dune Encyclopedia manuscripts have been discovered.

[Abu]

Tasty, yum yum yum.

[Leo]

Tasty yum yum yum indeed. So tasty, so yum yum yum.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

I'm excited.

[Leo]

I am, too.

[Abu]

I'm genuinely excited for today because I think you've uncovered something very, very cool during your trip to the Fullerton Archives. And folks, if you don't know what we're referencing, go back and listen to that first Fullerton Archives episode from a couple weeks back. You took a trip out to California to uncover what you could from the Frank Herbert Archives out there. And one of the things you uncovered was a treasure trove of entries that were submitted to Willis McNelly to be included in the Dune Encyclopedia that were never published for one reason or another. And we're going to be going in depth on one of the more interesting of those entries today.

[Leo]

Yeah, what we have as the Dune Encyclopedia is such a great bounty of information, but it's only the tip of the iceberg. And there are full entries that seem to only have been cut because of length, which is very exciting.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's very exciting. And over the course of the next, I don't even know, weeks, months. I don't know how long it'll take us to go through all of this information, but we will be as we uncover these entries as, as we analyze them and catalog them, we'll be releasing episodes like this about the quote unquote lost entries of the encyclopedia that never made it to print. And today is just the first of many. But we're already getting overly excited and ahead of ourselves. Let's knock out some very quick housekeeping up top and then we'll dive right in. Starting, of course, with a spoiler warning, folks, a very light spoiler warning today. In general, I guess we recommend you know about the first four books and ideally have read them because there are some vague non plot related references to the four books. But in general, I think you're safe. If you're worried about plot. I think you are safe to listen today as far as spoilers are concerned.

[Leo]

Yeah, we're not talking plot at all. Now, of course, as always, a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Hey, Daniel Dion, Seth Redding, Greer. Both spectacular individuals. In fact, in the Dune Encyclopedia manuscripts, there were somehow 8, 9, 10 entries, all about how generous and incredible you are as people. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what the fuck? These were written in the 80s.

[Abu]

Why were these cut?

[Leo]

Why were these cut? Get them back in there. So I've actually gone and stapled them into my physical Dune Encyclopedia. So that's how much I appreciate that's.

[Abu]

Right now, of course, a huge shout out to all of our patrons, in fact, at every level, who support this show. Your monthly contribution is truly the reason we get to make episodes like this. The reason we get to make trips out to California and build these connections and do the deep research that's required for an episode like today. All of that happens because we're able to pay the bills, pay our team, thanks to your generous support. So we thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And look, signing up monthly on Patreon isn't the only way to support the show. If you can't make that work at the moment, we totally understand. Check out the Buy me a coffee link in the description below where you can send us a one time tip just to say thank you.

[Leo]

Indeed, every little bit helps. Thank you. So today's episode, we've already talked about a little bit of this, but just to kind of ball it all up for you, we are going to be talking in this series about Dune Encyclopedia manuscripts, some of which have never been available online before. We are still processing over 200 documents comparing them with what is in the printed encyclopedia. But so far we've already found a wealth of information. So today we are going to be looking at the history of old Terra manuscript. And we chose this for a very good reason, dear listeners, because if you go back in the feed, all the way back in the feed, our very first episodes of this show of Gom Jabbar were about the timeline of Dune, establishing when does Dune happen in related to like modern actual real world events. And this entry, the history of Ulterra entry, the manuscript is the one that was used to create that timeline and establish some of this early early history. So it's very exciting and felt appropriate as our like felt first flagship entry into the lost entries, as it were.

[Abu]

Definitely.

[Leo]

So today we're going to be summarizing the article, what it says and as it kind of carries us through ancient history, what we call modern day history and into the future. This won't be exhaustive. This isn't going to be an audiobook narration of the 20 page manuscript. But we're going to touch on some notable themes, things that are in the manuscript, things that aren't, as well as kind of notable moments. And then finally we're going to wrap up by sharing some correspondence we've uncovered between the author, Wesley D. Ives and Dr. Willis E. McNelly himself, which gives us more information about, like why this was potentially cut and where the author was coming from. And all of that I think will be very interesting to dig into.

[Abu]

Agreed, agreed. And I can't wait to dig into it after a short break. So hang tight, folks. When we come back, we're diving into this lost entry of the Dune Encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Sounds Good. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the Internet last year and I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season. And Abercrombie's newest arrivals shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online and in store.

[Abu]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption.

[Leo]

It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you're excited to talk about this lost entry. But before we do, I can't wait. Let's go. I know, I know, I know. But hey, you gotta wait. You gotta wait for just a second. I'm so sorry.

[Abu]

Oh, no.

[Leo]

We have to talk canonicity.

[Abu]

Oh, that's true, that's true.

[Leo]

So here's a quick note on the canonicity because we're dealing with unpublished work in this series. Broadly, we're talking about the lost entries we consider as a reminder for everybody, Frank Herbert Lore, Tier one. Nothing beats it. Top of the pile, followed by Encyclopedia Dune, Encyclopedia stuff is tier two. And then finally, Brian Herbert stuff is tier three, just below that, also in quality. Sorry, didn't need to say that. Anyway, this series is about the lost entries and for one reason or other, another These did not end up in the finished encyclopedia. So generally, as you continue to listen to the Lost Entries series, we're going to be treating these as sort of non canon in the larger fabric of the Dune universe. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean they're not interesting, they're not relevant to established canon. These are the same authors, the same writers who wrote the stuff that we love. And parts of some of these entries might even be considered canon. But as a whole, we should just think of these episodes as really fun expanded lore, what ifs, and some interesting thought exercises. And along those lines, I have one last little specific to today's article caveat, which is that. And this. Oh my God. This might give you a peek, dear listener, into the exhaustive work that I've been doing recently. This article does not appear in the Dune Encyclopedia, but bits and pieces of it have been used in other entries. So for instance, the dates in the early timeline we used in our first episodes are an example of information lifted directly from this manuscript. And also at least one final entry, Family Atomic's history of which is in the Dune Encyclopedia is basically itself a piece of this 20 page behemoth that was made its own little, like, easy to digest fun little aside.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Nevertheless, for the sake of simplicity, today, today is for fun. So buckle up. I think it's going to be a good time.

[Abu]

I think so too. Okay, all of the preamble out of the way, let's talk about this manuscript. And to be clear, this is a 20 page entry that I've submitted to McNelly for consideration in the encyclopedia, which is huge in the context of the types of entries that did make it into the final published work. Most of them, I think you did the math average like somewhere around six to seven pages. We're talking something that's like over twice as long as the average encyclopedia entry tree. So there's a lot to get through.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So let's dive in at the beginning of this manuscript that Ives writes. He begins by basically setting the stage. This is an entry about the history of old Terra, AKA Earth, within the context of the Dune universe, written as if by historians far in the future in the Dune timeline, looking back on old Terra. And so from that perspective, evidence from old Terra is scarce.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The planet was destroyed in fact, in 733 AG.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Thousands and thousands of years ago by the time Dune historians are writing this article.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Except a huge discovery that took place because of Leto to what this article refers to as the Arrakis find. But I Think in canon we know as the Darius Blot horde.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Within that Iraq is find, we're told there were many authentic artifacts, Earth artifacts contained within it. So a lot of Dune historians are basing what they know off of these discoveries. Thanks to Leto too.

[Leo]

Indeed. Gaps in knowledge included.

[Abu]

That's right. Big gaps in knowledge.

[Leo]

They're like, we've got a complete picture. You do not, as it turns out. Well, to start off the first section of the manuscript, the manuscript is kind of broken into these like era chunks. And the first chunk is all about the system. Just let's talk about the soul system. What are the planets, where are they and how similar are they to old Terra?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, Mars and Venus are both listed as terraformed, which I kind of enjoy. I like that.

[Abu]

Very cool. Yeah.

[Leo]

And they have something called a similarity index of 0.8 and 0.89 respectively, with an explanation. Quote, a similarity index of 0.75 or more means that humans can live on the planet with only moderate and self constructible life support systems. End quote. Which is very cool. I think that's fun. We kind of gloss over that as we go to all these far distant planets. But I do think that this allows us a little bit of extrapolation where we can say, yeah, Poretrin, Chitin, Gamma, favorite planet, even Arrakis have naturally high similarity index ratings and. Or were terraformed at some point by humanity.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

I also want to shout out Pluto listed as one of the planets. I'd like to think that in canon this means that at some point in the next tens of thousands of years, scientists will go, ah, you know what, it's a planet.

[Abu]

Yeah. We'll start feeling bad for Pluto. Yeah, we gotta include Pluto in the party. We'll bring him back.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

Now, continuing with the manuscript, it then moves on to another section titled Early History. And this is dated 19,000 BG to 16,500 BG. That's the time range that this section of the manuscript covers.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

And this basically establishes what Dune historians know about humanity's origins. This history documents the fact that humanity's first city states, for example, began to crop up around 19,000 BG. And it states that these city states, these early establishments were, quote, approximately the size of a typical hunting preserve with populations of, of 1 million or less, end quote.

[Leo]

I had no idea hunting preserves are so fucking huge. 1 million people in a hunting preserve.

[Abu]

What are you hunting?

[Leo]

What are you hunting? What? What?

[Abu]

Just to give us a sense of scale though, obviously, right?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Humanity in the far future is huge.

[Leo]

It's a lot of people. Yeah.

[Abu]

Trillions and trillions of people versus the tiny little hunter gatherer nations that would have started back in Mesopotamia on Earth.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

From that point, the manuscript then immediately skips over a bunch of time. A bunch of shit happens on Earth. Who cares?

[Leo]

Yeah. Blah, blah, blah.

[Abu]

And we immediately go straight to Alexander the Great in 16,500 BG. And the manuscript describes how Alexander the Great was this military genius and his military might helped him conquer practically the known world at that point and establish the first worldwide empire according to what these Dune historians know. And to sort of situate ourselves on our calendar versus the Dune calendar. For folks who may not know, Alexander the Great reigned for about 13ish years from 336 BC to 323 BC. So that's about a 16,200 year difference.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

If we're going to Dune calendar versus our calendar.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And we'll continue to sort of reference and connect back to real world calendar to help us calibrate as we go through this timeline.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

Now, this little section about Alexander the Great concludes by saying that he was very good at conquering, but was sleeping on, quote, the concepts of bureaucracy and absorption in the maintenance of empire. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

And thus, as many of us are familiar with, if you're a history buff.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Alexander the Great's empire quickly split and fell apart soon after his death.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

He did not establish something that could continue beyond him.

[Leo]

Yeah. Too bad for him. Get good, Alexander. I heard you were great. Not great enough to last, I guess.

[Abu]

Doesn't sound great at all.

[Leo]

13 years. All right, sure. That's like just a little bit over three terms in office. Okay, whatever.

[Abu]

Alexandria. That's the best name you could come up with.

[Leo]

Yeah. Okay. Get creative.

[Abu]

Come up with better city names.

[Leo]

Alexander the not very creative. Sounds like. Well, dear listener, that's basically it for the early history of old Terra. 3,000 years. Boom, bing bang, boom. That's all you need to know. And I want to say here, I think this is where we should kind of outline a pattern that we noticed as we were reading through the entry. It is very clear that Ives, when he wrote this entry, was taking his role seriously as someone looking at the early history of Terra through this like incomplete historical record, as the lens of someone living in a post Plato world, complete with these historical inaccuracies and these glaring omissions.

[Abu]

Yeah. And that's, you know, I think in universe that makes a lot of sense. Like this document is riddled with historical inaccuracies and incorrect names and wonky timelines. Because right. Dune historians tens of thousands of years in the future would have no way to actually accurately be able to cross reference and confirm any of these dates and times and people. And there'd be huge gaps in their knowledge as well. There'd be huge things missing. But I do just want to call out that stepping out of the lore for a second. I always cringe a little bit when stories, in particular sci fi stories, take an extremely Western centric view of human history or establishing their universe and their lore. You know, Ives celebrates Alexander's conquests in this. And that's apparently what everyone in the Dune universe knows. And yet we ignore, for example, Cyrus the Great's Persian Empire, which actually was formed 200 years before Alexander the Great and by some accounts was bigger. Not that size matters, but his empire was bigger is all I'm saying. Yeah, but which of course, you know, Cyrus the Great the Persians isn't something you would find in a typically western centric history of planet Earth and humanity. But I just wanted to call out, like throughout this article, this is one thing that bothered me was like, Ives attacks this history of Earth through a very white, very west lens and make some problematic choices which we'll bring up later as they come up. Yeah, but this is just one example.

[Leo]

I hear, I totally hear you. Also like the Chinese Empire, which is by some measurement still going. It's like you have thousands of years of unbroken and then we're like, yeah, yeah, but 13 years unbroken, Alexander. That's what we're focusing on.

[Abu]

Yeah, right. And you know, I can already hear the emails being like, abu, you're being too woke. Why are you measuring this thing written in the 80s by a different level of wokeness? First of all, shut the fuck up. Second of all, it would make this a more interesting piece of writing if you encompassed more of human history that wasn't just the, like Alexander the Great to the Greeks, to the Romans, to the British, to the, you know, just following the like, very simple Western white trajectory of history.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Abu]

If it encompassed more of world history and more of humanity in a way that I think I've always applauded Frank for doing. Frank has always had great respect for Eastern perspective and Eastern history and Eastern tradition. And he did his research when it came to those things. I think Ives stuck to what he knew for sure.

[Leo]

So this carries us to the empire of the Romans, which is much bigger than actually the empire of the Romans. Lasted from 16.500BG to 13,600 BG. Wow. Good. That's a long time. And again, that's a long stretch of time. This is part of the theme and we're going to focus here in the manuscript. We're told about Romulus and Remus, the legendary founders of the city of Rome and eventually the Roman Empire. And the key to their success as they built their empire. This is where Alexander failed. Alexander the not so Great failed was the realization that if the government controlled communications, the control of the empire would follow. End quote. So they got messages across their empire very, very quickly, very effectively, and that's what allowed them to create this lasting thing. And I really appreciated that as a resonant theme within the Dune universe.

[Abu]

Same.

[Leo]

Now, 500 years later, by the year 1600 BG, the Roman Empire encompassed, as it's described, the entire known world, of course, save for the Americas. Ever heard of them? Australia? Sure. And China. And that's it. Those are the other places other than Nice.

[Abu]

The rest is all Rome.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Africa. Never heard of her.

[Leo]

Who's Africa? Not sure. Yeah. So, of course, again, this is where we're seeing this incomplete picture of the world. Very Western focused.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, as a quick side note, I'm fully exposing myself here, but I also. I was confused.

[Abu]

This is wild. I, like, gasped when I read what you wrote in the script here.

[Leo]

I hadn't heard of Romulus and Remus. They sound like uncles from Harry Potter. I'm like, is Remus the one who dies? Like, I don't know. Yes.

[Abu]

I mean, there is a Remus in Harry Potter.

[Leo]

Oh, there is. Okay, cool. I'm like, yeah, that sounds like Harry Potter characters.

[Abu]

No, no, you're spot on. You're spot on.

[Leo]

And then I was like, oh, fuck. I, like, missed out on this whole chunk of history. Googling. Oh, and they're not real, apparently. They're just, like mythological figures who. So anyway, I was like, oh, well, today I learned. Today I learned about the founding of Rome, the myth of the founding of Ro. All right.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Very strange.

[Abu]

That's amazing to me. What are they teaching out there in those California schools?

[Leo]

We were learning about how many atrocities we committed against indigenous people. So in some ways, my education of the Roman history, it's like, yeah.

[Abu]

Anyway, well, I'm glad that's something new you've learned. Thanks to the script.

[Leo]

I've grown. I've grown as a man. Also, I really appreciated that, learning that Romulus and Remus are not just Harry Potter characters, but they're also these, like, mythological Roman characters, seeing that they are referred to by this article as, like, historical brothers who did all this stuff.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I like this kind of mistaken blending of myth and history. Right. Like, even at the point now where a lot of Google is going, hey, are these two people real people? I'm confused. We are seeing that today. So, of course, 20,000 years from now, when the Dune encyclopedia authors are writing, they're like, they seem real. So here are these two brothers, and this is the founder of this. And I think that same inaccuracy can also be mapped to the rest of this article, which I really enjoyed.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I'm sure Leto, too, has some thoughts about historians and I don't know, history being all bullshit and stuff.

[Abu]

For sure. For sure. It's fun, though.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Abu]

As far as the Dune historians are concerned, Romulus and Remus did found Rome.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Because everyone keeps saying that. It's written everywhere.

[Leo]

It was built in a day, so it must be true, I think, is what I heard.

[Abu]

It keeps being corroborated by all these sources.

[Leo]

Remus appears everywhere. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[Abu]

He must be an important guy. Real important to Rome. Yeah, it's fun. Those types of inaccuracies are also riddled throughout this entry in a way that I too found fun. Okay, so that covers the Romans. Let's take another quick breather, but don't go anywhere, folks. If you know anything about history, you know where we're headed next. We're going to talk about the Byzantine Empire. We'll be right back.

[Leo]

Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Abu]

Over.

[Leo]

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[Leo]

Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBGLIS Librekizumab LBKZ, a 250mg injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.

[Abu]

EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

[Leo]

Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have New Orleans worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if.

[Abu]

You have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.

[Leo]

Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit epglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready for Istanbul. I mean Constantinople. I mean Byzantin, Byzantium.

[Abu]

D. All of the above.

[Leo]

All of the above. It is the same city. Yeah. Let's talk about the Byzantine Empire. And I also, again, I have to continue to expose. I'm not a history buff because I had to Google a lot of like, when did Christianity start? Which famously started with Christ.

[Abu]

Also Googled that.

[Leo]

To be fair, this is what happens when you have like a Muslim and a Buddhist hosting a podcast. We're like, who was Jesus? Was he a cool guy?

[Abu]

Okay, how to pronounce Jesus?

[Leo]

Jesus Christo, Christo. Not sure. So, okay, the manuscript describes we have the Roman Empire and it's being pestered by these small jihads which led to the movement of the imperial house. The imperial seat of power moves to Byzantium, which is actually, I guess, the name of the city before it was renamed Constantinople by Constantine. Is that right? And all of this happens in 15,600 BG. So a few hundred years later. And you added this because it sounds smart and I didn't know this. There's no agreed upon start date for the Byzantine Empire. He read from the script. But most historians, he read from the script. Ballpark it around 300 AD, give or take a few decades. So that's about when we're talking about 300 AD we are now in AD and this is 15, 600 BG.

[Abu]

That's right. Notably, some of y' all might already know this. The two of us had to clearly Google this. This is also generally around the time, again, AD after death, right around the first century ades that A very Bene Gesserit, like, group of men called the Christian Brotherhood got their start. I don't know if any of you have ever heard of them, but the Dune historians were able to dig up some facts about them and pin down the fact that, yeah, this is where they really became a powerful force in history.

[Leo]

All guys named Christian, I guess, or I don't know. We'll come back, we'll circle back.

[Abu]

And we wanted to actually share an interesting couple of quotes from this section of the manuscript that Ives wrote, because to us, this reads like straight out of foundation, which is a story we both love.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Quote this time, the empire's conquests were conducted much more subtly than the raw military conquests of the past. Military force was now used mainly through proxies, and most conquests were slow, certain, and unrecognized by the victims.

[Leo]

So I love it. So good.

[Abu]

The Dune historians are recognizing that the Byzantine Empire is operating in a different way than the Roman Empire did. They've now learned the art of subtlety, the art of economic pressure, the art of soft power versus just the pure military might of the Romans. The quote also continues a little bit later on and says, quote, it was economic power applied unremittingly and patiently for 13 centuries, that first caused the Jihad Empire to stagnate, then to fragment, and finally to be absorbed at its own request. End quote.

[Leo]

God damn it.

[Abu]

So there again, economic pressure, soft power. It's not the military might that took out the Jihad Empire, which is what this manuscript keeps calling the Ottoman Empire, it's economic pressure and ultimately the downfall of their economy. I think for the Dune historians, that this is a way for them to track the trajectory of empires in the past. And this is the way that the Byzantine Empire is operating differently than the Romans. They're able to take out their rivals, the Ottomans, in a different way than the Romans would have.

[Leo]

I also, I love that idea. Like, again, this is what I loved about Foundation. But the idea that conquering looks different depending on the forces at play. And the idea that you are applying pressure and 13 centuries later, the people who you were, you could have conquered militarily will join you at their own request, just to be a part of the capitalistic party or whatever. Right. That lens applied to real world history is very cool, I think.

[Abu]

Yeah. I'm also being corrected in the chat. I do want to say this. I was wrong in saying ad means after death, which is, honest to God, hand of my heart, I legitimately thought that's what that meant.

[Leo]

I Was pretty sure as well.

[Abu]

Daniel and Takako are correcting me. AD actually means Anno Domino.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which is Latin for Year of our Lord. Thank you for the religious correction. I legitimately didn't know that.

[Leo]

I like to think AD stands for Almost Digimon, because Digimon hasn't aired on TV yet. But, you know, so true. After death is also what I thought it was. So there we go. Goes to show you, American educational systems got some opportunities. Well, the imperial seat, as you're pointing out, it's the end of the Byzantine Empire. 14747BG. We're told by the manuscript they lose the imperial seat. This leads to basically the 16th century when there is no kind of like centralized Western power. And we have the major. We're told the major provinces of Old Terra are basically all vying to control that imperial power. It's like, let's carry this forward and.

[Abu]

Succeed and from here. So we're only like roughly five pages into this 20 page manuscript at this point.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it spends like another, I would say probably five more pages basically covering the rest of human history and talking about the various provinces which in this manuscript it keeps referring to as houses.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That took or vied for the imperial seat, which is just this manuscript's way of saying, became like a world power. Right. It talks about countries like Spain or France or Great Britain and eventually America. Right. Like these Western powers that at one point or another in their history, took over much of the Earth and colonized much of the Earth.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I found this part to be actually kind of boring and kind of long and windy. It just like goes on and on about history that, like, generally, if you are a person raised in the west, you kind of already know. And I, in my opinion, it doesn't necessarily add much to the fabric of the Dune universe anyway. So, like, my gut instinct says, like, this may be a reason why McDelley cut it too, is like, that we're not adding a lot to the Dune universe and we're spending like 10 pages talking about stuff that really has nothing to do with Dune yet. And it's just like rehashing Earth history.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And, you know, I brought this up earlier, but I want to hit on another example. There continues to be this, like, very problematic Western view of world history that this manuscript leans into and that results in some tropes, you know, that we're all familiar with. For example, I wanted to share this quote in the manuscript about the discovery of America. Quote, it was explorers of the Madrid House, who first discovered and exploited the vast wealth of the Americas, which were tremendous continents with essentially no organized populace. End quote. Yeah, get fucked. Native people, no organization. So that sort of thing continued to rub me the wrong way around through the course of this document. Yeah, that's an example of the type of writing that we find in the, in the rest of it. Madrid House again. Right. The Spaniards discovering America.

[Leo]

Right, right, right.

[Abu]

It uses house as a stand in for countries, et cetera, et cetera. It's interesting to look at this history through the lens of like Dune vocabulary.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But I wish it had been a little more thoughtful about the rest of history that wasn't just the West.

[Leo]

Yeah. When we're looking at history, human history through the lens of like, yeah, but did you colonize people? Like, did you fucking establish a continent? Power? And you go, no. Well, then you're not really worth mentioning and you're not worth like, respecting or, you know, the Incan empire was a fucking thing. And at the time when London had had a population of in the thousands, the Incans had. I. I'm remembering this from the movie the Lost City of Sea, starring Robert Pattinson in a lead, in a. In a supporting role. But wait, really? Yeah, no, it's great. It's great too. It's on Amazon.

[Abu]

Wait, I should watch this. Okay.

[Leo]

It's really good.

[Abu]

I mean, you know, I don't watch movies, but I should.

[Leo]

Like, theoretically, you gotta watch Mulan. I mean, you just gotta watch some other movies to watch first, but it's fine. The point is, Ives was clearly focused on this unbroken chain of empire, but he's really reinforcing the loudest and widest, colonizing Western voices. And you're right, spending seven pages rehashing things for fun through a Dune lens is fun, but I think that's where an editor comes in and goes, yeah, but how much are you actually contributing to this sci fi world? To the Dune world? And you go, oh, not very much. I just got kind of carried away. And you go, okay, cool, cool, cool. We're going to cut this six pages.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It can be fun and interesting. That doesn't necessarily make it good, like a good addition to the lore, you know, both of those things can be true. This is fun and interesting. It's cute that like, it keeps referencing House Britain.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Dune terminology applied to real world history, that's kind of cute and cheeky. But it does go on for like seven pages and you're like, okay, I got it.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

I also want to Call out Eli's comments. In the live chat here, Eli says, remind me, is the Dune Encyclopedia written from the in universe biased point of view? And the answer is yes.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

The whole conceit of the Dune Encyclopedia is that it is a in world, in universe historical document compiled by many Dune historians trying to track their own history.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And it takes place sometime after the events of God, Emperor of Dune, the fourth book.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So it is historians factually getting things wrong, but doing their best to put together a comprehensive history of their universe.

[Leo]

Yeah. And to share another comment in the chat, Takako says, on the other hand, from an imperium perspective, perhaps this is a logical misunderstanding or point of view. And that's another consideration for sure. And I think that there is something valuable to say. Oh, the. Probably effectively a continuation of the Western historians who have always been writing the history books, because they're the ones who keep wiping people out. That point is salient, but how much more salient is it to lean into it again? So I think that's where like the 6, 7 page cut would make sense.

[Abu]

Yeah. Okay. Anyway, carry on. Like, again, there's like seven pages of this where it goes over human, actual human history through the lens of Dune, and it does gloss over a ton of history. For example, both world wars are never mentioned in this manuscript. The Holocaust never mentioned. Historical inaccuracies everywhere. There's like a hilarious moment where America's use of nuclear weapons, the Dune historians claim is because of fights over Pacific trade routes, like shipping routes, and not because of a world war. Yeah, so like, fun sort of cheeky inaccuracies are all over this with like vague references to real, real historical events.

[Leo]

A lot of this section, and the reason we're kind of like brushing through this is a lot of this section of this manuscript has very little to do with Dune lore. It's mostly kind of rehashing human history through this lens of Dune vocabulary. Again, fun, right, for history buffs, but it's not necessarily adding a ton to the Dune kind of canon. I did like, again, very Asimov coded this shifting emphasis. One of the keys of this section talks about how the religion of humanity, which again, laughable, is Christianity until the religion of capitalism took over and the creed of the invisible hand, end quote, kicks in and that becomes the religion of humanity is the belief in capitalism, which I very much enjoyed because again, we talked about these shifting means of control. And how does the west attempt to bring people in besides like, you know, usurping. Usurping democratically elected leaders and replacing them with easily manipulated dictators. Oh, I don't know. Maybe economic forces become very, very powerful and all. All in all, this manuscript becomes more interesting when we move beyond real human history and when we talk about the kind of fictional future of humanity spreading across the stars.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Which we are going to talk about indeed, after a final quick break. So don't go anywhere, dear listener, when we're back, we're talking about the future. This episode is brought to you by ESPN. Catch the first WWE premium live event on ESPN, Wrestlepalooza live, on Saturday, September 20th at 7:00pm Eastern Time. It's going to be an epic night in Indianapolis featuring some of the biggest WWE Superstars. This event is only on ESPN, so go to stream.espn.com and sign up to the ESPN app today for your all access pass to Russell Palooza and all WWE Premium Live events.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. All right, let's dive into some of the juiciest parts of this manuscript when we move past real human history into the fictional future history within the Dune universe. So the next section of this manuscript is titled the Terran Natural park. And this section is dated from 13,600 BG to 700 BG.

[Leo]

Jesus. It's a huge range.

[Abu]

That's a huge range. Like almost 13,000 years of fictional future history. Now, the manuscript explains to that from 14,100 to 13,900, which roughly doing some, like, back of the napkin math, translates to around 2100-2300 AD. These are the years that the great powers of old Terra began to battle for resources within the solar system. Humanity begins to spread across the cosmos, setting up these colonies and bases. And all of the superpowers of planet Earth are vying for control of resources and territory. This also kicks off a great migration of humanity around this time.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And the manuscript actually tells that by 13,600 BG, just a few hundred years later, more than 20 billion humans live in the Sol system, while only 1 billion humans remain on old Terra itself.

[Leo]

Insane.

[Abu]

What a great migration. Indeed.

[Leo]

So most humans have left the planet, and really a fraction of what who are on the planet today will remain on the planet just in a few hundred years. That's the idea. Wow, that's incredible.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And this leads into a period called the wars of Plenitude, which rage from 13600 to 13402 BG. So a couple hundred years there and are described as a general age of fighting and dominance determination. End quote. Great. Basically hate to live in a general.

[Abu]

Age of fighting and dominance determination, especially.

[Leo]

A 200 year one. That's a long time. 200 years of fighting and dominance at point some. That sucks. Now these wars were slow and ultimately fruitless. Basically this is pre Holtzman technology.

[Abu]

So yeah, nobody's moving faster than light.

[Leo]

No, it's taking, it's forever. Everything's super, super slow and everything is basically put on pause, put on hold. The fighting ends when Old Terra is hit by a planetoid, an asteroid in 1342 BG. Which ends the battling, basically. So everyone's fighting and then Earth gets hit by this planetoid. And basically old Terra was wiped out. And the disparate powers basically were like, oh shit, wait, we have to get our shit together. Because if we don't, everything, all of human history before we left Earth is going to be lost. So everyone rallies behind House Ceres. House Ceres and House Ceres is this like incredibly technologically advanced, kind of a proto Ixian civilization. They were very wealthy, very technologically advanced and also they had like semi sentient machines as well. They, with the backing of all of the other powers, basically immediately led an effort to salvage what they could from old Terra called the rescue of the Treasures. I like that, I like that. Branding, good branding. I can imagine Posters now. Indeed. Hashtag Rescue of the treasures Indeed.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

By 13, 360 BG the planet had gone through its cycle. It had gone through a period of intense warming, but it was safe enough to at this point recede and kind of re. Get the kind of life back onto the planet, basically.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And this is where House Ceres really demonstrates that they are brilliant. They have this kind of political genius move. They declare Old Terra as a natural park and a planetological study base. Which is brilliant because the manuscript tells us that all of these different powers were sort of like on the edge of their seats, like, oh shit, are we gonna have to fight over old Terra once it's like livable again? Like we're all gonna have to fucking go back to battle. Oh no. Naming it in a natural park in like a protected space.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Basically gave all of the galactic powers a chance to be like, okay, good, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we all wanted that because honestly, we're not really that interested in the planet anymore. It's got propaganda value, but other than that it's not really worth that much, you know.

[Abu]

Right, right.

[Leo]

So that's brilliant. And that enters this new era of the planet as a natural park, this protected space. Quick note, because this is going to come up in a minute. The planet was reopened for human occupancy. The only people allowed to reoccupy old Terra were people who would forego all outside assistance. They were like, yeah, I'm happy to live on this planet. No technological assistance from anybody else. And this is how the manuscript puts it. In other words, the new inhabitants of Terra were voluntary exiles to prehistoric times. End quote. Cool. And I just want to say here, what a good fucking concept for a video game. Are you kidding me? Like a survival crafting game where it feels like you're primitive, prehistoric. It's like a weird, unfamiliar world and then you discover it's like hundreds of years in the future and you're just in this little, like, primitive enclave.

[Abu]

This is Horizon Zero Dawn. You're describing Horizon Zero dawn, that dinosaur game.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But is there humanity off the planet? Is that the idea? Yeah, there is. Oh, shit.

[Abu]

Yeah. Spoiler in the second. That might be a spoiler. It's kind of revealed. I mean, it's hinted in the first game. It's very aggressively hinted in the first game.

[Leo]

That's cool.

[Abu]

It's a great concept for a game and I think that's why Horizon Zero dawn exists. But it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, like, voluntary Luddites are taken back to Terra, basically. Like, we're going to cut you off from the rest of the empire and all you have to work with is the technology that's present on Terra, which is basically nothing. It's prehistoric at this point.

[Leo]

And that's. That's important because we did get a question in chat from Eli. Do they mean basically, like us today, technology? And the answer is no. It's actually all Bronze Age. The humanity that returned to old Terra never progresses past. I think it's Bronze Age technology.

[Abu]

I think you're correct. Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo]

So important note there, because that's going to come up.

[Abu]

Would you volunteer for that today?

[Leo]

No. Maybe after. If I was born into a period of like 200 years of war, or if I was like, on a planet somewhere and was just like, everyone's doing fucking NFTs and like, oh, God, right. Crypto trading and that. That's what humanity's become.

[Abu]

And someone was like, they're in polyamorous relationships with their AIs.

[Leo]

Yeah, everyone's just having sex with their chair dogs. I'm like, you know what? Take me back to the trees. Take me back to the mountains and the creeks.

[Abu]

Sure, yeah.

[Leo]

There's that YouTube video of that guy who's just out in the woods and he, like, made Iron from by hand. I could do that. I'd be happy doing that. Not that I could do that. I'm just like. I would learn how to do that. That would be fun. I would get an enjoyment out of that. No, I think I would enjoy space. Space world. What about you? Are you tempted to return to Bronze Age technologies? You both wear glasses. This is not a good experience.

[Abu]

I would not survive in the Bronze Age. Right. What am I doing in the Bronze Age? I'm not podcasting in the Bronze Age. I have no transferable skills that would actually help me in the Bronze Age.

[Leo]

Welcome back to my discussion of the different types of trees I saw today. Today I saw a really tall, big tree. And thanks, listeners, that it's like one square. Oh, my God, a bear.

[Abu]

You know, that's not Episode one. You get like two. Okay, back to this manuscript. The manuscript continues and talks about how basically, after the discovery of the suspensor nullification effect, thanks to our boy Holtzman. SHOUTS.

[Leo]

Yep, shouts.

[Abu]

Humanity's reach explodes across the galaxy. Right now, we can travel far distances in a blink of an eye and traverse faster than the speed of light. We don't have to spread across the galaxy at a snail's pace, relatively speaking. And because of this, because humanity is getting further and further from its home planet, old Terra begins to recede from memory and historical significance. People care less and less about our home, our original home in particular. People care less and less because there's no strategic reason to give a shit about this old planet anymore. Who cares about old Terra? There's no resources there that are valuable to us as a space faring empire. And outside of just the novelty of it being the birthplace of humanity, it doesn't really serve a purpose for the modern empire.

[Leo]

Makes a good postcard, but, you know, makes a great.

[Abu]

Makes a very cute postcard. But that's it. Quote, Terra was relegated more and more to the backwaters, of interest only to very dedicated academics. End quote. So unless you were particularly interested in Earth history, you really had no reason to give a shit about old Terra right at this time in Dune history. Now, meanwhile, speaking of those voluntary Luddites who had been transplanted to the planet.

[Leo]

They'Re all like, what's the cloud? What's my Apple ID password?

[Abu]

Jesus. Flashbacks. These folks begin to forget their origins. They forget that they were transplanted here at all.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And they begin to assume that this planet is their entire existence, that this is where they have always been. And they begin to revert to what the manuscript Describes as barbarian cultures and basically as we've stated, plateauing at Bronze Age development. They have forgotten about the rest of humanity, the rest of the technologically advanced space faring empire, and instead they're in this like weird little pocket universe of their own, living a quote unquote barbaric lifestyle on planet Earth.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

We only bring this up, this whole like these Luddites on the planet. Because it's at this point that the manuscript once again goes off on like a very long side tangent about how apparently during the Butlerian Jihad, these like backwards and barbaric populations of old Terra were transplanted. They were plucked from Ulterra and spread out across various planets in the Imperium to presumably like help these other planets survive. The Jihad is like sort of the mission statement or sales pitch here. Yeah, yeah, Here's a quote that sort of explains this quote. The IAS had guessed wisely only barbarians could rule over control and sometimes halt a decline to barbarism. And the Terrans did well. Many were too sophisticated to remain in the role of advisor for very long and ended up as rulers of their planets in name as well as in fact. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, because after the jihad, right, there was this period of Dark ages where like the planets were sliding back toward barbarism.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the hope was like well, barbarians who have established control in barbaric circumstances will help. But this. Yeah, this whole section, it was long. It was very long. And also I was like, okay, not super plausible. And then it mentions that some of those Terrans, those transplanted barbaric Luddite Terrans became like establishers of the great houses. And I was like, that seems also like a bit of a stretch.

[Abu]

That's a huge stretch. Yeah. So yeah, this all seems very far fetched to me and not like super well thought out. Like the whole Luddites on Terra coming back into the Empire. How would that even work?

[Leo]

It says they had to be conditioned to understand what had happened and they. Blah, blah.

[Abu]

I guess they went through like training camps or something.

[Leo]

But even then it's like, okay, okay. But then like, how are you doing that if you lack the informational infrastructure that is a result of the Butler and Jihad? It just gets a little like it feels in some ways too neat and also too messy. So it's fine. We can.

[Abu]

Yeah. You know, again, for what it's worth, like, I'm really hating on Ives here. I don't know the guy personally, but this feels like another example of like he didn't really think this through. It also, thematically, doesn't seem to fit into the ideas of the Dune universe. Like, I don't think that Frank would ever postulate that barbaric people of the past would be how we save ourselves in the future. Sort of like going backwards. It's never something I think Frank talked about. Yeah, this was a weird section of the manuscript, for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah. So Ives, I think, having maybe a little bit too much fun, and it's fine. Again, this article, as we'll talk about this manuscript, is very, very long and probably for the best. It's not fully in the Dune encyclopedia. Now, all of this gets us to basically the end of this timeline, which is 701 after guild. So this is 700 years after the establishment of the Spacing Guild. And this is the end of Old Terra when UTO the Wild, who maybe is Emperor, it's a little unclear. Just a fella, a fella named UTO the Wild, declares Old Terra as no longer a natural park and basically has the entire population moved to Seleucus Secundus. So they take all the people from that planet, they move them to Seleucus Secundus. And then he used some of his family atomics to nudge Jupiter's moon Europa, just give it a little push into a collision course with Terra's moon, causing it. And this is like years after he died. It's like he dies, and then years later, Terra's moon explodes, shatters, which begins this period of bombardment where all of these chunks of the moon are basically just colliding with Earth and basically destroying all remaining life on the planet. And at this point, you know, the planet itself, like, as we mentioned, not a lot of people really care that much about Ulterra anymore. So the battered, ruined husk of humanity's origin is now floating out there unpopulated, unseated, uninhabited, and mostly ignored.

[Abu]

Yeah. An unceremonious end for the birthplace of humanity, I would say.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

Thanks to Utau.

[Leo]

So wild. Oh, my God. If I were to decide, if I were to choose one word to describe this guy we know nothing about, I'd say he's wild.

[Abu]

Yeah, same. Ditto.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about the last couple of pages of this manuscript. It basically ends on this section about the terrariums that many houses across the Imperium maintain, in which, quote, they keep a microcosm of their presumed ancestral environment. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, that's cute. I like that idea. That's fun.

[Abu]

It's interesting. Yeah. The examples that are listed in this Manuscript. It gives a couple of examples include the Imperial Terrarium on Giedi prime, which replicates Earth environments like veldt, prairie and steppe. You know, folks get it. The Mongolians, the Harkonnens, conquerors.

[Leo]

Evil. Sure.

[Abu]

There's also the Rainforest Terrarium, which is owned by a house called House Diacrai. And there's also, of course, the arid desert terrarium on Arrakis itself, which was created by Leto ii, we're told in this manuscript. And finally, one more terrarium that it references is the oceanic terrarium maintained on Valmaria, which is either a planet or its house. Valmari. Unclear.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And this is the terrarium where a tourist can go see the legendary Great White Shark of Old Earth. Or perhaps you're interested in seeing the killer whale of Old Earth. Fun. Take your kids.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, it's cute. Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's where the manuscript ends.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's the end of it. But, dear listener, we have a little bit more to share with you. And this is. It's very exciting. Words from the author himself, Wesley D. Ives, and a response from Dr. Willis E. McNelly. Also, as a fun fact, Wesley D. Ives is acromanimized, has an acronym wdi. And if you look in the Dune Encyclopedia, do a little word search for W, you'll see the articles that he wrote. And he actually wrote the Holtzman article. He wrote the Ornithopter article and a bunch of other ones. He, I think, was one of the main contributors, which is kind of fun. But, hell, yeah, to get to these prime documents, see, these are prime sources. We have a letter from Wesley D. Ives to McNelly. This is dated April 25th, two days after my birthday, 1981, nine years before my birthday. And this is Ives explaining the notable events which might affect other submissions. He's going, here's my 20 page manuscript. And here are the important things he outlines. I think seven or eight. And most of them are really small and not really worth diving too deeply into. We will make these documents available on our Patreon page, so check those out. But most notably, and we've talked about this a few times today, he emphasizes what he calls the unbroken chain of empire dating back to Rome that he's intending to connect to Leto's era. This is his explanation from this letter. In April of 1981, all that happened between the founding of Rome and the destruction of Ceres were minor provincial disputes and rebellions. We are looking back through 20,000 years, after all, and most of Those really have been under an Imperial administration. And then after a little bit more mentions of Old Terra should take this into account and simply speak of the period as the planetary stage of the first or Roman Empire when discussing any events occurring between the death of Alexander the great and approximately 2100 AD. End quote.

[Abu]

That's fun.

[Leo]

It is.

[Abu]

From my read of it. He's basically saying all that shit that happened on Earth is like, pretty insignificant to the humanity of the Imperium.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

10,000 years, 20,000 years down the line, like it's a blink of an eye. So when you reference it in the encyclopedia, just kind of like gloss over it because it's so meaningless to these people so far in the future. Yeah, it's an interesting take, for sure.

[Leo]

It's an interesting take. I mean, it's also one that, like, I think you've been right throughout today that it would add so much more. Let's say these authors discovered a bunch of really cool stuff about the Persian Empire or the Incan Empire. How would that affect their. Like, how would they process. That would be a very interesting thing to know. And we don't get that because of this decision. But he is making this decision very intentionally. He also mentions the religion of this unbroken chain is Christianity until 1588, when the religion of the world becomes a religious belief in capitalism.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

End quote. Fascinating. I think that this context helped me understand the manuscript in a new light for sure. But yeah, it's certainly a choice. And I guess he's again, just trying to make sure that anybody who's writing stuff about this period, that they're all kind of unified as these historians in the Dune universe.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, one last little excerpt. He mentions this in his letter, but this was not in the manuscript. He shares the planetoid that impacted Terra and basically stopped those wars. Quote, there were nasty rumors now mostly forgotten, that the planetoid was given a little nudge. End quote. Oh, spicy. Hello.

[Abu]

What the hell?

[Leo]

Maybe House Ceres, this was their vie for power. Maybe they said, hey, this is how we're going to become the seed of. Who knows? Hot tea, hot gossip.

[Abu]

It certainly sounds to me that a House Ceres may have been involved in the first destruction of Earth.

[Leo]

Yeah, indeed.

[Abu]

Crazy move, because, you know, there were still billions of people on that planet.

[Leo]

Literally billions. Yeah, probably. Yeah, almost certainly wild stuff.

[Abu]

Now, in addition to that letter, you dug up another great document that we wanted to share quickly here at the end as well, that's related to this manuscript and the conversations between Ives and McNelly. McNelly responded, we have a letter dated July 16, 1981, in which he actually kicks off by apologizing for the late reply. It is late. McNelly, what are you doing?

[Leo]

Four months.

[Abu]

I had asked one of my colleagues in the history department to read them, and they had disappeared into the quicksand of his desk, only to re emerge when I held a figurative ray pistol to his head. He was unshielded at the time, for that matter. End quote. Oh, my God, McNelly, you're such a fucking nerd.

[Leo]

My guy, he's such a nerd. I love him. I love him so much.

[Abu]

Just say my colleague didn't read it yet. Had to go on this whole ray gun thing. Okay. So that's how the letter starts. And then he kind of gets into some logistics. A lot of the documents and correspondence related to McNelly and the Encyclopedia that you dug up are kind of just like logistics. They're like, about taxes and how to pay the writers and how, how, how. When payments are due and when new revisions can be submitted, that sort of thing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So the letter kind of gets into that a little bit. And then McNelly continues, and he writes, quote, pending a more certain estimate on my part about the amount of space available for the Dune Encyclopedia, I am going to hold off accepting the outline of pre Guild history. I am simply not certain whether or not I'll be able to use it, much as I liked reading it. End quote. So a little bit of insight into the decisions McNally made about what stays, what gets cut.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That sort of thing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

McNelly also mentions in this letter that the Holtzman entry that Ives also wrote is actually too long. I'm sensing a trend with Ives writing here. And McNelly does add the caveat. Quote, readability is important here, and a single long essay is a bit more formidable than several shorter ones. End quote. Which is great. Which is great editorial instinct from McNelly for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

A 20 page history of all of humanity is much more daunting than breaking it up into four or five page entries.

[Leo]

Oh, I love that. Yeah. I love to see that focus on readability. Like, McNelly is putting together this incredible collection of different writers writing all this stuff, but his goal is to make something people are going to enjoy reading.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And definitely he's recognizing. Yeah. When most of the entries are like 200 words to 400 words, something that totals at 20 pages is hard.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And ultimately we know that he used a lot of the dates just as Like a timeline, but that's just like one or two pages of just data points. And then there's little excerpted things like Family Atomic's history of. It seems like at the end, McNelly opted to use pieces of this, but not the whole. I also checked and could not find any more letters relating to these two. Although the next two letters we have in our documents are handwritten, which is always a little bit hard.

[Abu]

Challenging. Right.

[Leo]

But it's fine. That's what we were able to find regarding the history of old Terra.

[Abu]

Yeah. Such fun finds. Genuinely, you know, to think that parts of this inspired what is in the encyclopedia. McNelly took pieces and parts of the this history, this comprehensive history that Ives put together. And that's what you and I have been reading for years in the encyclopedia. But also fun to consider the what if? Of like, oh, wow, this could have been the way the encyclopedia went about it. This could have been the foundation upon which the Dune history of the encyclopedia was written. Interesting to consider the alternate paths we could have gone. Totally a very cool find. Ultimately, though, I will say, like, I'm glad McNelly went with his instincts here and didn't put this massive 20 page article, like, at the top of the encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Yeah, same.

[Abu]

I do think this article could have used a couple more editorial passes and a bit more polishing. And Ives certainly contributed great pieces to the encyclopedia. This felt like one of the weaker ones.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And so great job. Great job. Magnelli following his gut here, picking and choosing the parts that fit neatly into the final published encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Indeed. Yeah. And that's it. Our first episode of Lost Entries.

[Abu]

Fun.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh. There's so much more to talk about. I think I've identified 19 that are, like, completely missing from the encyclopedia. So a lot to talk about. We're gonna be talking about this stuff until we're older and grayer. But before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. Of course, the two best ways. One is to support us by becoming a patron. We are going to make some of these documents available to patrons. So if you'd like to see what we're talking about and to see them in all their glory, join us [e-mail] gomjabbar seriously, every little bit helps. $5 a month. So little. And it really, really makes a huge difference for us. So thank you. Or check out our merch store. I've been hard at work recently and we're going to have some new merch soon, so check it out. Those links are in the show notes below.

[Abu]

Gosh. Leo sent me some drafts of what he's working on. And, folks, you're now prepared. It's so good. One final reminder that we'd love to hear from you. Email us gomjabarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us pictures of your cute pets. Send us what you would do in the Bronze Age. What transferable skills do you have that will help you survive in the Bronze Age? Yeah, let us know. Comjabarpodcastmail.com I had a friend who was.

[Leo]

Like a leather worker, and they were making these incredible wallets and bags and things like that. And legitimately, I was thinking about them and I was like, you know, 600 years ago, my job would be very different, but your job would be the same. That's cool. That's pretty rad. I like that idea.

[Abu]

That's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A friend of mine one time was like, we were getting lunch and they were like, do you mind if I stop by the cobbler?

[Leo]

And I was like, the pie, like, the apple variety or what kind of cobbler?

[Abu]

Cobbler. And they had to get, like, a boot readjusted or something, you know, and. And I was like, who goes to the cobbler in 2025? What is this, 1554?

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

Let me just stop by the cobbler in the marketplace before I go to church and.

[Leo]

And right after the apothecary for a new tincture.

[Abu]

Let me hit up the apothecary. That's right. Yeah. Again, to your point, though, like, another job that feels like has not changed in, like, 500 years. Fixing boots is still a thing people do.

[Leo]

Listen, you gotta have boots sometimes. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path. And, Doug, here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people.

[Abu]

Customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally Doug. Uh, limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Leo]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Savings vary unwritten by Liberty Mutual insurance company and affiliates.

[Abu]

Excludes Massachusetts. For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8.

[Leo]

That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a.

[Abu]

Sesame seed bun and medium fries. And a drink.

[Leo]

We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary.