What Dune Can Teach Us About Artificial Intelligence (Part 1)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Episode: What Dune Can Teach Us About Artificial Intelligence (Part 1)
Host: Lore Party Media
Release Date: August 1, 2025

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Introduction: Exploring the Intersection of Dune and AI

In the premiere of their latest episode, hosts Abu and Leo delve into the intricate relationship between Frank Herbert's Dune universe and contemporary advancements in artificial intelligence. Titled "What Dune Can Teach Us About Artificial Intelligence (Part 1)," the episode seeks to extract profound lessons from the Dune saga that resonate with today's technological landscape.

The Butlerian Jihad: A Prelude to Modern AI Concerns

Abu opens the discussion by referencing the Butlerian Jihad, a pivotal event in the Dune chronology marked by a galaxy-wide purge of all thinking machines and advanced computers. This historical backdrop sets the stage for examining current apprehensions surrounding AI.

Notable Quote:

Abu [05:51]: "I'm very pro purging the Samsung smart fridges."

The hosts humorously juxtapose the fictional Butlerian Jihad with today's smart devices, highlighting lingering fears about AI's growing presence.

AI's Impact on Critical Thinking and Cognitive Offloading

The conversation transitions to the theme of cognitive offloading—relying on AI tools to handle cognitive tasks—and its implications on human intellect. Leo references a recent Forbes article discussing a study titled "AI Tools and Impacts on Cognitive Offloading and the Future of Critical Thinking." The study reveals a significant negative correlation between frequent AI tool usage and critical thinking abilities, especially among younger users.

Notable Quote:

Leo [14:59]: "Our research demonstrates a significant negative correlation between the frequent use of AI tools and critical thinking abilities mediated by the phenomenon of cognitive offloading."

Abu elaborates on the concept, explaining that cognitive offloading involves using physical or digital tools to reduce cognitive demands, such as tilting one's head to view a rotated image or setting calendar reminders.

Notable Quote:

Abu [15:25]: "If you have ever tilted your head to perceive a rotated image or programmed a smartphone to remind you of an upcoming appointment, you have engaged in cognitive offloading."

To illustrate the potential pitfalls of over-reliance on AI, Leo introduces a tangible example—a decision coin used to make everyday choices. This tool serves as a minimalist form of cognitive offloading, allowing users to bypass indecision without delegating autonomy to the tool itself.

Notable Quote:

Leo [20:35]: "This coin has actually been super fun because it's like, I don't know, should I?"

AI and Unequal Power Dynamics

The second major theme explores how AI may exacerbate existing societal inequalities. The hosts cite a commentary from Brookings indicating that AI disproportionately benefits those already in high-paying, knowledge-based professions, potentially widening the economic gap.

Notable Quote:

Abu [33:03]: "The first mechanism through which AI could increase inequality is by giving a stronger productivity boost to already highly paid knowledge workers while leaving many lower skilled workers in in-person service and manual labor jobs behind."

Additionally, Abu highlights gender disparities in AI adoption, referencing a Time magazine article that notes women are less likely to utilize tools like ChatGPT due to perceived barriers, such as the need for additional training.

Notable Quote:

Abu [34:05]: "45% of women report they need training to use ChatGPT, whereas men's use is more often limited by employer restrictions and data confidentiality."

The hosts also discuss the "digital divide," emphasizing that unequal access to internet and digital tools can lead to marginalized communities being further disadvantaged in an AI-driven world.

Notable Quote:

Abu [39:32]: "If you don't have access to the ability to pay your electric bill every month because you don't have consistent Internet access, that's a problem. Now imagine a world in which AI tools become the norm... leaving even more people behind."

Balancing Pessimism with Optimism

While acknowledging the challenges, Abu and Leo also explore optimistic perspectives. They reference a Berkeley Economic Review article summarizing a report from The Economist, which suggests that AI could lead to the creation of new job sectors that focus on tasks AI cannot replicate, such as roles requiring the human touch and social skills.

Notable Quote:

Abu [43:38]: "Nothing so far in human history, as far as technology is concerned, has been devastating enough to wipe out employment, to devastate economies."

However, they caution that this optimistic view assumes AI will not overtake non-routine or socially nuanced jobs—a scenario that remains unpredictable.

Notable Quote:

Abu [46:39]: "This view assumes that AI will never be capable of taking over non-routine jobs or jobs that require the human touch or social skills."

Linking Back to Dune: The Core Lesson

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts connect their discussion back to Dune, emphasizing that the saga serves as a warning against over-reliance on technology. They advocate for using AI as a tool to augment human capabilities rather than replace them, echoing the sentiments of characters within the Dune universe.

Notable Quote:

Leo [56:32]: "These tools need to remain as tools. Even as we see characters like Leto II using technology that is against the rules, it is because those things are justifiable sometimes, if you're using them with the correct use in mind and not just turning over all your autonomy to these AI entities."

Conclusion: A Split Episode with More to Come

Abu and Leo conclude by announcing that the episode is part one of a two-part series, promising to delve deeper into additional lessons from Dune related to AI in the forthcoming segment. They encourage listeners to engage with the show through Patreon support and merchandise, fostering a community eager to explore the rich tapestry of Dune lore.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast masterfully intertwines the philosophical and ethical dilemmas presented in Dune with the contemporary discourse on artificial intelligence. By leveraging insightful quotes, relevant studies, and relatable examples, Abu and Leo provide a comprehensive analysis that not only honors Frank Herbert's legacy but also offers valuable perspectives on navigating the complexities of modern AI.

Transcript

[Abu]

Today on the show, Frank had a lot to say about thinking machines. And in an era of GPTs and groks and clauds and Geminis, we're looking at whether or not the Butlerians were onto something. Maybe it's time to grab our pitchforks.

[Leo]

Yeah, I got a couple just off camera. The whole stack of pitchforks ready to.

[Abu]

Go within hand's reach at all times.

[Leo]

At all times. I have a burning torch on the other side of the camera and it's just constantly on fire. It's very warm, but it's worth it in case we need to, like, do a purge, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

And today on the show, we're trying something new, folks. We've heard you, you love when we get political and when we talk about real world things, everyone loves it. So we're going to do that today.

[Abu]

It's getting capital B political today, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

All right. Before we get into it, though, let's take care of some very quick housekeeping to make Shout Out Mapes proud. Starting, of course, with our spoiler warning. Today's episode is going to contain just light spoilers through God, Emperor of Dune, the fourth book in the series. We're going to be pulling some quotes from that book, but it's kind of going to be in a vacuum in a non plot, spoilery way. So if you're sensitive to that sort of thing, make sure you've read the first four books and if you're not, then carry on.

[Leo]

And as a reminder, we have book clubs covering all of those books. So if you've hesitated to jump in, now is the time. They are so good and they feel very salient when we're looking out at the real world, as it turns out. Now, as always, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion and Seth Reddinger. Guys, we really appreciate you. In an era of groks and GPTs, I actually prompted GPT to give, like a heartfelt thank you and GPT crashed. It was like, I can't even express how much gratitude you have for these two, these two supporters. It failed. So I'll say the good old classic. Thank you. Thank you from the bottom of our heart. Thank you for the support and of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons. Literally what you do. Supporting us makes what we do possible.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, a reminder that if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter right now, that's a. Okay. You can still help keep this show running by checking out that buy me a coffee link in the description below. That's a great way to send us a one time tip and say thank you indeed.

[Leo]

So let's talk about today's episode. This is kind of a newish format we're trying out, so definitely let us know what you think about this. But we've talked for the five years we've been making this show, we've talked at length about the themes that Frank was clearly very passionate about and how they kind of interface with our understanding of technology and society and all of that. So today we're going to drop the charade and we're going to really just lean into that. We're going to use ideas about artificial intelligence, thinking machines, the Butlerian jihad present throughout Frank's franchise, and. And we're going to have an in depth conversation about our modern day relationship with artificial intelligence.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Now before we get into all of that and talk Dune and artificial intelligence and what lessons we can take from Frank Herbert's incredible stories about our relationship with AI and technology. Let's take a quick break. Yeah, don't go anywhere folks. When we come back, we're diving right into this heavy topic.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

I'm very pro purging the Samsung smart fridges.

[Leo]

But now you can watch HBO on your fridge. It's perfect. Now, according to the terminology of the Imperium at the end of Dune, the Butlerian Jihad ran its course from about 201 before guild to about 108 before guilt. So it's about 100 years. And at some point after that we get the OC Bible, the orange Catholic Bible, one of the most widespread religious texts in the Dune universe. And the OC Bible is important because this is the source of the famous edict that we get on. I think it's like page 20 of Dune.

[Abu]

It's so early.

[Leo]

Paul recites this so fucking early. It's almost like it's important. And listeners, please sing along if you know the words. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind. End quote.

[Abu]

Iconic. One of the most iconic quotes from.

[Leo]

Dune, better tattoo than fear is the mindkiller for sure.

[Abu]

Now, sometime after the foundation of the Spacing Guild, once we go from BG to AG in the timeline, we also get the great convention, which is sort of like the constitution of this Imperium. And the convention itself also outlaws certain types of computers and advanced technology, in addition to obviously creating many of the rules that shape this Imperium for generations to come.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

This is explained to us in a quote from God, Emperor of Dune. Actually quote, she could ignore the suspicion that there might be a computer in it, that it might be prohibited by the great convention. Make no device in the likeness of the mind, end quote. Those are the thoughts racing through a certain character's head in God, Emperor of Dune, when they're interacting with a computer like device.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Abu]

Okay. So given all of this, given the Balerian jihad, given the great convention, given the relationship with thinking machines in the Dune universe. Leo, I don't know. This case seems closed. Frank's stories are pretty clear about technology. Right. Technology is bad.

[Leo]

Yeah, obviously. Dune, world of black and whites, good guys, bad guys. That's it. That's why we've talked about it for five years. That's right, yeah. As we're sort of joking, it's not exactly that clean. Throughout Frank's books, many of the mentions of thinking Machines and the reasons that they were so destructive are actually hinted at being much subtler and honestly, I think much more resonant with like genuine concerns today. It's not that they were like evil or that there was some huge problem with them as tools. It was the attitudes surrounding them. Right?

[Abu]

Yes, exactly.

[Leo]

In God, Emperor of Dune, we get this explanation from a character who certainly knows the target of the jihad was a machine attitude as much as the machines. Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom, out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed. End quote.

[Abu]

Naturally.

[Leo]

Naturally. I mean, you have to. You have to. What are you doing? Usurping my sense of beauty? Fuck off. I'm destroying you right away.

[Abu]

Nothing has made me more self conscious than the curves of my MacBook Pro.

[Leo]

It's so beautiful. My sense of other beauty has been usurped by this beautiful bezel. And the satisfying click of the magnetic.

[Abu]

Clamshell is so good that edge to edge display.

[Leo]

MagSafe3 oh, talk dirty to me, Joni Ives, or whatever the fuck. Time and time again, Frank uses opportunities like this to shift our focus away from simply the technology as a tool and more about the attitude surrounding it. The complacency that came with over reliance on the technology, the willingness not to think, not to be challenged. He wants us to strive. He wants us to yearn. And that's another big lesson in all of Dune, right? One of the core warnings in Dune, besides populism and charismatic leaders, is stagnation as an existential threat for individuals, but also the species.

[Abu]

That's right. Now, one more caveat before we dive fully into the lessons that we can learn about artificial intelligence from Dune. Yeah, there's the Brian Herbert of it all. For fans of Dune prophecy, for folks who might have watched that show, maybe that's the first Dune exposure they've ever gotten. You might be wondering, what. Wait a second. Wasn't the Butlerian Jihad a literal war against robots?

[Leo]

Yeah, like boom, boom, boom, lasers, blasters.

[Abu]

Pew, pew, Terminator killer robots.

[Leo]

Killer robots, yeah.

[Abu]

The answer is technically yes. So Brian Herbert, in his expanded lore novels, his prequel stories, takes Frank's ideas about thinking machines and technology and humanity's relationship with them in pretty literal direction and turns it into a war with AI killer robots. For our discussion today, for our own sanity, today we're going to be ignoring the Brian Herbert lore of it all and sticking primarily to the first six books and the ideas that Frank presented himself in those first six books about Artificial intelligence and thinking machines and advanced computers and our relationship with them.

[Leo]

Okay, preamble. Out of the way. What can we learn? Abu, what's our first lesson from the annals of Dune?

[Abu]

Okay, so I propose that lesson number one that Frank teaches us is that over reliance on artificial intelligence and advanced computing makes us dumber and makes us less human. I think that's one of the key lessons we can learn from Dune. Yeah, and I think this idea is littered throughout the stories in the first six books. For example, in book three, during a spice trance in Children of Dune, Leto II's awareness flashes back to the Butlerian jihad. And we learn that this passive attitude that you were describing earlier, right, this passive relationship with technology is exactly what the jihadists were fighting at the time. Quote, he heard a minister companion speaking from a pulpit. We must negate the machines that think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware. And we are the ultimate program. End quote.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. Bars.

[Abu]

Honestly. Bars.

[Leo]

Bars. You deserve that pulsar.

[Abu]

That's your companion up there on that pulpit. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. But when we pair this quote from Children of Dune with the earlier quote we shared from God Emperor of Dune about machine attitude, this naturally begs the question, right? Is our technology really making us dumber? Is it making us less human? And is the human mind really the quote, unquote, ultimate program? Or will technology ever get to a place where it can replace the human mind? Your local mentat might argue that nothing will ever surpass the human mind. But let's take a look at some recent studies and some research that we did about how the use of AI tools like ChatGPT affect our ability to think.

[Leo]

So to kick us off, there's a Forbes article from January that was talking about a recent study called AI Tools in Impacts on Cognitive Offloading and the Future of of Critical Thinking. Now here's a bit from the conclusions section of that research paper. Our research demonstrates a significant negative correlation between the frequent use of AI tools and critical thinking abilities mediated by the phenomenon of cognitive offloading. This suggests that while AI tools offer undeniable benefits in terms of efficiency and accessibility, they may inadvertently diminish users engagement in deep reflective thinking processes. Younger participants who exhibited higher dependence on AI tools scored lower in critical thinking compared to their older counterparts. End quote. Now they go on to emphasize the need to promote responsible use of these powerful new tools, especially for for younger generations and in educational settings. Again, these are not necessarily we're not necessarily saying the data's pointing to get rid of it all. Never use these tools. But when you use them, it needs to be understood how they can build up your critical thinking and not replace it entirely.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. And we want to actually focus on a part of this study that feels pretty critical. The idea of cognitive offloading. Now that's a term that you may not be familiar with. It's one that we certainly had to look up and double check. And it is really the sort of double edged sword at the heart of this study and also this trend of AI use.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So you found this excellent standalone study actually from 2016, all the way back in the ancient era of history by Evan Risko and Sam Gilbert, looking at the idea of cognitive offloading. And here's a little bit from the abstract of that study that describes and defines cognitive offloading for us. Quote if you have ever tilted your head to perceive a rotated image or programmed a smartphone to remind you of an upcoming appointment, you have engaged in cognitive offloading. The use of physical action to alter the information processing requirements of a task so as to reduce cognitive demand. End quote. Yeah, something we've all done, right? We've all tilted our heads to look at a sideways photo.

[Leo]

Yeah. Put down a finger if you've tilted your head. Listener. All right, everyone put down a finger.

[Abu]

Everyone's done that. And this is a very common practice. And in fact technology has closing your head.

[Leo]

It's a common practice, guys. We've all done it.

[Abu]

Who hasn't been peer pressured into followed by its sequel? Everybody tilts.

[Leo]

Everyone tilt.

[Abu]

And you know, technology of course helps us with this cognitive offloading more and more. Right. Like I am a more efficient and organized person because I can throw things in my calendar and in my to do list, offload them from my brain and be able to go back and do them later when I have the mental and physical capacity to do this, you know?

[Leo]

Totally, totally.

[Abu]

But here's sort of the catch in all of this. The study from the Forbes article that we're talking about highlights the downside of AI use in terms of cognitive offloading. Quote. While this can free up cognitive resources, it may also lead to a decline in cognitive engagement and skill development. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, well even just rooting this in like day to day life, I was told as a kid that I would have to practice my like mental math tables because I wouldn't have a calculator with me 24 7. Joke's on you. I've got a supercomputer. I carry around in my pocket.

[Abu]

Truly.

[Leo]

And I don't think that's also even necessarily a bad thing. Like if I've freed up resources that I can focus on other important things. Amazing. To your point, using calendar invites, using these sorts of digital tools so we don't have to invest all of our time in just getting our fucking schedules together in our heads. Great, Amazing. But when it comes down to cognitive engagement, developing skills, that's something I think we can all probably agree is not necessarily something we want to get rid of right away. I think some things we can leave in the past and be happy about, but critical thinking and problem solving is something that we use so frequently to just willy nilly let that atrophy is really troubling. And it seems like that's what the data is indicating might happen, right?

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. And actually I want to share another quote from this Forbes article because I think it kind of gets at a key takeaway, at least for me here. Quote, frequent AI users were more likely to offload mental tasks, relying on the technology for problem solving and decision making rather than engaging in independent critical thinking.

[Leo]

End quote. Yeah, that's rough.

[Abu]

That to me goes beyond cognitive offloading, right? When I put something in my calendar, I am not then allowing my calendar to decide how my day will go, right? I'm not letting it make the decisions. I'm using it as a tool to enhance my own decision making and organizational skills. And I think this quote and this article and this study sort of really highlights the dangers of too much reliance and over reliance on technology, which obviously, as we've talked time and time again on this podcast, is a huge theme in the Dune books.

[Leo]

1000%. I also really quickly, can I show you a physical artifact of cognitive offloading? Check this out. This is a decision coin that says on one side it says yes, and on the other side it says no. So the idea being you go, should I get Should I order grubhub Mexican food tonight? And I flip it and I look at it, it says yes. And I go, great. Now the key to that coin when I was given that coin as a gift, is it is more about something that happens in our minds where we get paralyzed between two choices that doesn't super matter that much. When you flip the coin and you at it, you'll have an innate reaction. You'll have like a oh, okay, it said yes, then say no, then do no. Like, you know, if you're like, should I get Italian food? And you go, oh yes then great, now you know you don't want Italian food tonight. And I was like, this coin has actually been super fun because it's like, I don't know, should I?

[Abu]

Your own emotional reaction to the response will tell you more than the coin itself will.

[Leo]

Oh, it's great. I mean, this is also like the benefit of sounding boards and stuff like that. But it's funny because I'm realizing I was like, oh, shit. I have a physical, cognitive offloading in this room, literally within arm's reach.

[Abu]

But even with a coin, you're not ultimately. I mean, maybe you are in some instances where you don't care and it's low stakes and you're letting it make a decision for you. But what you're really doing is using the coin flip not as a decision maker, but as an emotional calibrator for yourself so that you can ultimately decide what you want.

[Leo]

Cut through the noise, give me a binary. I'll react to that binary and then make my own decision. That autonomy is still very important, and that's also why I think it's valuable. I think I've shown people that coin and they've gone, ew. Like, why would you let the coin, like, random chance decide? And I'm like, you're missing the point. You're the problem with GPT users.

[Abu]

You're the one copy pasting every GPT answer into your essays.

[Leo]

Fuck you.

[Abu]

Okay, the theoretical person. Okay, I want to highlight. Moving on from the Forbes article for a hot second. I want to highlight a Time article, a Time magazine article that I also discovered in my research that reported on a similar study conducted at mit. And the Time article explains that. In this MIT study, the researchers asked their participants to rewrite one of their previous essays. They had to write three essays to begin with, either using ChatGPT, using only Google Search, or using nothing. And then each group had to go back and rewrite one of their essays. And this is how the article explains it. After writing the three essays, the subjects were then asked to rewrite one of their previous efforts. But the ChatGPT group had to do so without the tool. While the brain Only group could now use ChatGPT, the first group remembered little of their own essays and showed weaker alpha and theta brainwaves, which likely reflected a bypassing of deep memory processes. The second group, in contrast, performed well, exhibiting a significant increase in brain connectivity across all EEG frequency bands. This gives rise to the hope that AI, if used properly, could enhance learning as opposed to diminishing it. End quote.

[Leo]

If used properly seems like the key yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

This really, this was kind of a eureka moment for me, I think, because I will say just sort of on like ethical grounds, on sort of just resistant to change grounds. I have fought against using AI in most of my work. Whether it's my work work, my day job, or it's our, you know, the podcasting work we do here together. I just have refused to use AI tools to do any of it, even if I have to do a slower process, even if it's something non consequential that I know AI could do faster for me. This MIT study, this reading, this time article revealed to me that there is a best case scenario for using AI, right? Beginning with your own thoughts, your own research, your own critical analysis, and then bringing in an AI tool to help supplement and support your ideas. Maybe you get 90% of the way on your own and that last 10% of the juice you get with the help of some AI research. Brain first, AI second. That to me feels like a healthy approach to using an AI tool. In particular, when it comes to the type of work that I do, I do a lot of creative work, a lot of research, a lot of scripting, a lot of writing, a lot of analysis. For me, I feel like I need to be in control of that and to come up with ideas myself. I don't want to rely on AI to come up with any of the thinking for me, but once I've thought of the idea, I'm more than happy to have the AI help me flesh it out and make it even more comprehensive and thorough.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think piggybacking, as we say in the corporate environment, piggybacking. On your point, I'd really like to follow up on what Abu just shared.

[Abu]

Yeah, can't wait to circle back later.

[Leo]

Schedule a one to one. I think the challenge in a lot of this stuff is it all feels very amorphous and very ungrounded when people are bringing up very real concerns about the use of AI, it can often feel very hypothetical or not really grounded in real world scenarios. And I think the cool part of this study is I can understand being one of those people who says, oh chatgpt, yeah, help me write this essay. And, and the data showing that a little bit later, I'd really struggle to remember any of the shit that went into writing that essay. That feels very tactile, that feels very real. And I can understand that, especially if the whole reason you're writing the essay, I mean, most of the time I was writing an essay, it was to show I understood something. But sometimes when we're writing a script or something, my goal is to write the script to help me figure out what to say in the moment, but also is to help me synthesize the information and to know it moving forward. And if I'm not going to remember any of it, then, yeah, that doesn't seem like the right tool for the job. You can hand me a hammer and be like, yeah, it'll put up the house, but the house will fall down tomorrow. And I'm like, oh, that's great, but I want it to live in the house. So realistically now I know the limitations of the tool and I can use the tool better. So I do like that study quite a bit. Now, wrapping up on this lesson, I'm so glad we had a chance to set aside time to do this research. But as always, all of these things come with caveats. And I just want to point out this is a field that is still very much evolving, I think. Oh yeah, we all have our personal takes. I tend to be very bleeding edge adoptionist where I'm like, let's get the new tools into workflows and let's see, let's kind of figure it out by doing it. And then I have friends like you and other friends who are way more man. I have one friend who's just like, never use it for anything. And it's like, okay, sure, which feels like maybe a little bit step too far. But what I want to emphasize is that none of these studies are claiming to have all of the answers and in fact, almost every single one of them. When you look at the conclusions, a lot of it is just like, here's data from for why we should be careful moving forward. And that generally is the conclusion I was seeing during this research. And it's also worth saying we want to lean on peer reviewed studies and in particular that Time article. The MIT study is not yet peer reviewed. It very well may be down the road, but at this moment it isn't. And that's always important to note.

[Abu]

Yeah, all of these things come with caveats. Right. None of these studies have the end all be all answers. And we, we are in the midst of the AI revolution. And so it is way too early to call the game yet. Right. It's only the first quarter, folks. Yeah, there's a lot more ball game left to play.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so, yeah, this is early data. These are conversation starters. Some of these are certainly warnings. Right. And considerations for folks in power and educators to keep in mind as we move forward into this new era, but they are certainly not the answer. Capital T, Capital A. As they say on Love Island, Folks, it's early doors. We are still learning about how this technology affects us as human beings.

[Leo]

Okay, so in the first episode, you get to kiss two of the OpenAI bots. You get to kiss two of the LLMs. Who are you kissing?

[Abu]

I'm definitely kissing Gemini. There's an allure there. There's a mystery. What the fuck is Gemini? What does it even do? It's popping up in my Google do, and I have no idea what it wants me to do. Gemini, I want to kiss you, and then I want you to go away. The other one I'm going to kiss. Honestly, I feel like ChatGPT is an arrogant asshole. I'm going to avoid that at all costs. I'm going to go ahead and kiss the little guy. Come here. Claude.

[Leo]

Get over here.

[Abu]

Claude, what about you? What AI are you kissing?

[Leo]

It's too early to know. I feel like I'm at the end of the picking. I'm the girl at the end who just gets to watch everyone pair off. I think I'd probably kiss GPT. Just realistically, it's the one I trust the most. I mean, the other ones, they're too sketchy. There's not enough information about them.

[Abu]

Way too sketchy.

[Leo]

Yeah, way too sketchy.

[Abu]

That's so true. All right, on that incredibly weird AI kissing note, let's take a quick breather, folks. That wraps up lesson number one, that I think we can learn from Dune about about artificial intelligence. After the break, we're going to be diving into lesson number two, about what Dune teaches us about AI. So stick around. We'll be right back.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Yeah, let's get into lesson number two that we can take from Dune about machine learning and artificial intelligence and thinking machines. The second lesson we wanted to look at is the effect AI has on already. Unequal power dynamics. So one of the biggest questions that we often run into with new technology is whether it's going to serve as an equalizer, bringing the little guy up, giving them a chance to improve their station in life, or whether it will deepen those existing divides in our society and in our economies.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, this idea in Dune comes up incredibly early where Mohaim is telling Paul about why the Butlerian Jihad happened. Quote, once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free, but that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. End quote.

[Abu]

God, I love that quote so much.

[Leo]

It's so good the idea that people are saying, oh, thinking machines, they're gonna do my thinking for me, usurping my sense of beauty. Yeah, who needs it? But then that allows other people to enslave them, to control them. And sure enough, 10,000 years later, right post Butlerian Jihad, did everything go back to normal? Is everything good again? Well, the power structures in the Imperium are fairly stagnant, right?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Even within Dune, how often are we seeing lowborn or disenfranchised characters getting that bag, elevating their station going up in the world?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So here we are, dear listener, we have thinking machines among us. We've got the GPTs and the groks and the Deep seeks and the Geminis and the Clods, sexy little clods and the Dollies. They're all here. They're among us. So are we. With their help on our way to empowerment for all and the betterment of humanity, are we bringing the little guys up or are we deepening these divides? Let's look at the data and spoiler alert. This doesn't look great.

[Abu]

It's not looking hot right now. So there's a commentary we found on Brookings and it proposes that one of the main issues with AI is how it disproportionately benefits people who are already pretty well off. The first mechanism through which AI could increase inequality is by giving a stronger productivity boost to already highly paid knowledge workers while leaving many lower skilled workers in in person service and manual labor jobs behind. Most of the evidence mentioned earlier, which indicates larger productivity gains for lower skilled workers within A specific job comes from studies of workers who are already in relatively high paying professions. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's a really great graph as part of that commentary that shows most of the people exposed to GPTs within their work are in the like $70,000 a year range and higher.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Versus, yeah. If you're working like a $30,000 a year job, you're like a sanitation worker. It's like, cool. ChatGPT is not exactly helping me get these trash bins off the street.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. Your Starbucks baristas, your college students working summer jobs, they're not integrating GPT into their barista workflows or whatever. There is a sense that these tools in their current iterations will predominantly benefit folks who are already in high scale corporate office jobs.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And not necessarily the vast swathes of folks who do your everyday labor work.

[Leo]

Yeah. Now, another large scale survey of Danish workers, I thought this was really fun. Found a significant gender gap in the use of GPT. It's very interesting. Even though within that survey all genders acknowledged the time saving potential of the tool. Like everyone surveyed was like, oh yeah, it could be super helpful. And then they were seeing that people who identified as women were not utilizing the tools as much within their work. The reason, quote, among the affected workers, 45% of women report they need training to use ChatGPT. By contrast, men's use is more often limited by employer restrictions and data confidentiality, end quote. Which I found to be fascinating. I mean, again, we don't want to jump to any unwarranted conclusions, but this very much brought to mind this often quoted Hewlett Packard report. Have you heard this, by the way?

[Abu]

I have heard this, yeah.

[Leo]

I feel like I've heard this the last like 10 years. Men apply for a job when they meet only 60% of the qualifications, but women apply only if they meet 100% of them, end quote.

[Abu]

Wild.

[Leo]

So I looked into that and it does seem like there's some data that supports that. But I also ran into this Harvard Business Review survey that looked into a little bit more closely of like, what is the takeaway here? Like, what do you do with that information? And the very real gap in that data had more to do with a different perception of how solid those rules are, which again, going back to 45% of women reporting that they need training to use ChatGPT, they're like, well, there's a right way to use this tool and I want to know what that right way is versus the guys who might just be like, ah, Fuck it, I'll figure it out. And that really could just come down to like differences in conditioning. Right? Like social, gendered conditioning having a huge impact is crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Fascinating.

[Abu]

Just another place where we have to be careful about the inequality dividend of these AI tools and who they benefit and who they don't. There may be a world in which female identifying users don't use these tools or are more hesitant to integrate them. Whereas a male identifying worker might skyrocket his productivity by just going ham on these tools and generating anime titties or whatever the guys do with these tools.

[Leo]

That's the job. That's the job. High paying CFO at Amazon. Alex Titties T I D D I E S.

[Abu]

So that is fascinating. In addition to the whether you are a college educated office worker versus a construction worker, AI is going to play a different role in your lives, it seems like along gender lines and gender norms and social conditioning. AI will play different roles in the lives of those people as well. There's also, I wanted to bring up also the issue of the digital divide. The quote, unquote, digital divide. Because there is risk of AI widening that gap as well. I found a great article from Susan Gonzalez on the UNESCO website that I think explains this quite succinctly. Quote, this dividend represents the unequal access, benefits and opportunities in AI technology across various regions, communities and socioeconomic groups. The most marginalized communities, women, people of color, disabled individuals, LGBTQ persons and others bear the brunt of this divide. End quote. That's not a new idea. Right. Like the digital divide has been an issue since the dawn of the Internet, since computers were invented, smartphones. There is certainly a divide in access to these things. You know, like I for one truly believe it is foundational to the continued existence and growth of society for free, fast Internet access to be available on every inch of this fucking earth.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so there is a risk for AI to exacerbate the already existent divides to digital tools, whether it's computers, Internet or chatgpt.

[Leo]

Yeah, I also, again, I think the struggle sometimes is making this feel very grounded in a way that we all, no matter who you are, as you listen to us talk about this, can relate to. And something I hadn't fully considered until literally doing this research is something that is very near and dear to me, which is like gig economy and the ability that I have to book audiobooks that I'm narrating or audition for gigs that I don't have access to because I'm not a part of A talent agency. And I've been in a bunch of video games and there's a bunch of stuff that I've done in my life that I've only been able to do because of this vast privilege that I have, not only in being a white male, but also in having fast Internet and being in a relatively wealthy nation that's really well connected with a lot of these infrastructural things. And actually Amnesty USA points out more and more access to work is controlled by smartphone apps and wages are often determined by non transparent algorithms. Has contributed to the erosion of workplace protections around the world, including for some of the most marginalized workers.

[Abu]

That's huge. And it's not that I think, to be clear, like we're not saying that AI causes the digital divide or anything like that.

[Leo]

Of course.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think what we're getting at is that there is undeniably a digital divide in access to digital tools and the Internet. But more and more of the world is shifting into the online sphere. Much of the like paperwork you have to do to exist in society happens online now. Many of us pay our bills online now. I haven't fucking checked the mail in weeks. What are they cramming in my fucking mailbox? I don't know, I don't look at that. But if you don't have access to the ability to pay your electric bill every month because you don't have consistent Internet access, that's a problem. Now imagine a world in which AI tools become the norm, in which access to GPT is how you do your work or how you pay your bills. Or as this quote from Amnesty USA is stating how you get paid because of an AI tool, suddenly that divide, that gap widens. You run the risk of leaving even more people behind. People who might already be behind in an Internet world will continue to be left behind in an AI world. Right now. That paints a pretty dreary future. I would say that research paints a very dreary future of the inequality that might come about thanks to artificial intelligence. On the flip side of it, we want to present a more optimistic outlook as well, because there are arguments that the AI work revolution will actually end up creating a new class of worker. And this class of worker will focus on jobs that AI can't do. Jobs that require the human touch and will never be able to be replicated by an artificial intelligence. I found a article in the Berkeley Economic Review, for example, that summarized a report from the Economist about these fears around unemployment caused by artificial intelligence. In the Economist Special Report titled Automation and Anxiety. Tom Standage explains that although there were temporary effects of unemployment that arose immediately after the Industrial Revolution, the formation of the working class and the proletariat led to an entirely new form of employment. End quote. That essentially is the basis of the argument that we have been through technological upheavals before in human history.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And the results of those upheavals is that a new type of work is created out of them, new types of employment are created out of them. Nothing so far in human history, as far as technology is concerned, has been devastating enough to wipe out employment, to devastate economies.

[Leo]

I mean, people used to hand copy every book, right. Like, that was a vast profession of, like, oh, you want this book in a language you speak? Well, wait until the monks in the local monastery translate it from Latin, you know? And that was like a whole thing. And then printing presses and ultimately, like, yeah, now there's, like, mechanics and people have to operate the printing press. And, like, what that class of people looks like changed. And that change was difficult. But you're right, those huge upheavals that changed the way we communicate as a species didn't eliminate the need for people to work and the opportunities for people to have gainful employment.

[Abu]

Yeah. And actually, sticking with your printing press analogy, I think it even goes further than, yes, we'll have printing presses, so we don't need hand copiers anymore, but we'll need mechanics to fix the printing presses because of the printing press. This Economist article actually argues that, like, the technology makes the product, let's say the book in our example here, easier, more accessible and cheaper, which then increases the demand for books. Right. More people are reading, more people want to buy books because they're suddenly cheaper and available on every corner bookstore.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that creates a whole new book marketing and publishing industry in which skilled workers have to then figure out how to sell books. And so I think, like, that is sort of the really interesting unknown future. Right. Like, what totally new industry, new type of job that we can't even fathom right now will be born as a result of AI efficiencies. That's sort of the argument that the Economist article and Standage is making in that piece. Of course, as always, lots of caveats today, the Berkeley article does acknowledge that there are obviously unknowns of how the economy will be reshaped and that this view of things will be okay because, look, they were okay in the Industrial Revolution is based off an optimistic assumption. This argument that AI will only redefine jobs assumes that AI will never be capable of taking over non routine jobs or jobs that require the human touch or social skills. It is difficult to predict what kind of job market might be present in the future and what kind of new surprises technology will bring about. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I think, I mean, that's kind of the heart of the unemployment anxiety because when we're talking about, yeah, the printing press didn't end society and there were people who needed, you know, found work afterwards. But if we are all in that class of hand copying books and now the printing press is coming out, we're nervous. We're nervous because it's like, oh shit, man, I'm really good at translating from Latin into like Gaelic and I'm gonna lose my job to that fucking machine. And it's certainly possible as people are kind of pushing the limits of what AI is being used for. As it's being used more and more. I've seen crazy claims that have not been substantiated, but about like studios using them for scripts and things like that. And you go, I'm sorry, if we're not letting humans write like the narratives of stories, what are we doing? And that's so. I appreciate that they gave that caveat because yeah, I'm like, that's kind of the whole of it. That's kind of the whole argument, like, society will be fine. Who knows if individually we'll be fine, we'll have to change jobs and careers and we'll have to figure it's gonna be tumultuous and probably pretty painful and new and it's gonna be scary and all of that's real, but we'll get through it. Like society will make it. It's fine, right?

[Abu]

On an individual level, there will be upheaval for some folks that is inevitable with the introduction of earth shattering technology of any kind, whether it's industrial revolution or AI revolution for sure. Now I wanted to share. So that was the economist in Berkeley. I wanted to share another article I found in npr. This one was titled what if AI could rebuild the the middle class. And in this article they interview MIT's David Autor, who's one of the top economists in the world and auteur shares this optimistic view of the future. Quote, auteur imagines an economy where assisted by AI, a wider range of workers could do the kind of work that's currently being done by the upper echelon of the labor force. The good scenario is one where AI makes elite expertise cheaper and more accessible. Autor says end Quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, that'd be nice.

[Abu]

That would be nice, certainly. And I also to some extent agree, like a lot of technology does lower the barrier of entry to skilled work. I think certainly I can only speak to my field here, but like as a audio and video producer, the type of work that I can do from my laptop and my bedroom and my PJs is the type of work you would need like professional grade equipment and a studio to do.

[Leo]

Yeah, Even just like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, exactly.

[Abu]

AI tools I do think will help folks be introduced to the type of work that they maybe wouldn't have the training, money or mentorship to be able to do before or certainly the technology or access. And in my field, I've seen that myself, like video production is now more accessible than ever. I can like definitively say that even in my lifetime. When I was a kid, it was freaking hard to make videos when I first started out, like making them on my dad's camcorder. And now, like everyone's got a nearly professional grade video camera in their pocket, walking around 28 years later. It was shot on iPhones. You know, obviously they used a bunch of other fancy film equipment to make it look like a movie, but it was still shot on a thing that we all carry in our pockets. So there is this effect that technology has on accessibility. And so to some extent I agree with Auteur that in an ideal world, in an ideal scenario, these tools create easier access and pathways to more skilled work and thus higher paying jobs for people who may not have had that access before. That would be a wonderful future in this AI revolution. But of course, I think for that future to actually unfold, we're going to need policymakers to take action. We're going to need workers and communities to step up and be very thoughtful about how we integrate AI into our work and into our lives and into our schools. So I think these are important conversations to be having. This is important research that's being done currently in the field around AI because it will lead to better decision making and hopefully toward the future that the economist paints or that auteur paints in this NPR piece.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, when we're thinking about it as like a rising tide, and maybe this is very liberal of me, but the idea too of like, okay, so AI makes it easier for anybody to do some of these kind of upper echelon jobs. As Artur is saying, great, so then we have just a lot more wealth. Maybe that becomes ubi, maybe that becomes universal basic income, where just by being in this elite industry, every person is guaranteed a little piece of the pie. And the reality is people will do stuff, they'll fill their time, they'll. And then the question is, what are you filling your time with? And if you don't have to do the hand copying books, well, now you can do more paintings, now you can do more art, now you can do more of that stuff that requires the human touch, as the Berkeley article was saying. Right. Requires that sensitivity to human social skills. We can spend more time on that and less time doing the rote rigmarole. And that would be great.

[Abu]

That would be great.

[Leo]

I think the big barriers to that are the current system that allows billionaires to accrue as much wealth as they have. There's that whole conversation to be had at some point.

[Abu]

Yeah. There's also the capitalism of it all. I read a Wall Street Journal article the other day that was like, what do our bosses want us to be doing with all of the efficiency that AI brings to our jobs? If I can do my job 50% faster, does that mean I only have to work four days a week because I can suddenly do my job in four days and not five would be. Or does that mean you expect me to do 50, 50% more work? You know, so there is the, like, capitalism question of it all is, like, in the chase of more bigger, infinitely. Is AI efficiency really ultimately going to benefit the average person in a tangible way, or will it just make wealthy people and corporations wealthier?

[Leo]

Right. Going back to the quote from Dune, is this tool going to set us free, or is it going to let the people in charge of the tools control our time?

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Well, dear listener, as we wrap up today's chat, we wanted to highlight. We wanted to bring it all back to Dune, and we wanted to highlight a quote from Dune, Messiah. That really starts to sound a little too familiar for our tastes, but I think this is the button we want to end today's conversation on. This new man of the Kizarat was more often a convert. His gods were routine and records. He was served by mentats and prodigious filing systems. Expediency was the first word in his catechism. Although he gave proper lip service to the precepts of the Butlerians. Machines could not be fashioned in the image of a man's mind, he said, but he betrayed by every action that he preferred. Machines to men, statistics to individuals, the faraway general view to the intimate personal touch requiring imagination and initiative. End quote. Boars, boars, boars. God, Frank. God on a pedestal sometimes. But I fucking love it.

[Abu]

Love it.

[Leo]

I just want to say, in this era where 100% AI generated advertisements are appearing on TV, gross. That is a real thing that had happened. Tor books using AI generated book covers. And at least that one really shitty looking one, if you've looked it up, you might know what I'm talking about. And entire AI TikTok accounts which are flooding the space with stolen content, barely disguised. We see today markets and those in charge of them following the money, following the followers, following the statistics, even at the cost of individuals. And that expediency being the, like, the golden standard. And again, we're not saying there are killer robots on the horizon. We're not saying chatgpt. I don't think that's the lesson that Dune gives us about all of this. It is that these tools need to remain as tools. And even as we see characters like Leto too, using in the fourth book technology that is against the rules, it is because those things are justifiable sometimes, if you're using them with the correct use in mind and not just turning over all your autonomy to these fucking groks and Geminis and GPTs.

[Abu]

I'll turn my autonomy over to Claude Clot. Claude's given me some looks, you know, from across the villa. Woohoo.

[Leo]

I asked Claude if it was real between us and he said yes, so I believe him.

[Abu]

Wait, that's what he told me. What the fuck?

[Leo]

What the fuck? Are we in a love triangle with Claude? Oh my God, Claude, you cheating bastard.

[Abu]

All right, folks.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

Gosh, that was really fun. I had a blast doing this research. Leo and I think this conversation was really constructive. But this conversation is only halfway over. Here's the thing, we have a ton more we actually want to talk about on this topic. There are more lessons to be gleaned from Dune and from Frank Herbert's writings about our modern relationship with AI. And instead of trying to cram it all into one endlessly long episode that goes on for like six hours, we're going to split this episode in two. So stay tuned, folks. In part two of this discussion about Dune and AI, we're going to be diving into some more lessons that we can take from Frank Herbert's books, some more lessons about technology in the Dune universe and how we can apply them to artificial intelligence and technology today. All right, folks, that wraps it up for today. As always, a couple of quick reminders here at the end of the episode before we let you go. Our first reminder for you There are two great ways to to support the show folks. Don't forget you can become a patron on patreon.com gomjabbar you get some lovely benefits like ad free episodes, early access to book clubs, Chapter House is starting soon and much more. And of course the other great way to support us is to check out our merch store gomjabbar shop.com Leo has been working on some very exciting new designs behind the scenes and I can't wait for folks to see them. So check all of those links out in the show notes below.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as always, we love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] that's the email address gomjabbarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, your feedback about this sort of episode. What other themes do you want us to look at in lessons we can learn from Dune? Tell us. We're happy to look. Ecology, Feminism, Religion, how to do backflips. I don't think that's a theme, but we'll look at it. We'll research that.

[Abu]

How to turn into a worm. We could look into that. There's got to be research out there.

[Leo]

I'd like to turn into a Would you love me, dear listener, if I turned into a worm? And send us pictures of your cute pets. Because at the end of the day, even if you're just sending us a kind word or whatever, we love to see it. We love to hear from you. So email us comtreb podcastmail.com Would you love me if I turned into a worm? Yes or yes?

[Abu]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other show on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Lore underscore party. And we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.