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- [00:02]
Matt Lewis
From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Elena Jarninger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life. Only on History Hit with your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:43]
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- [02:15]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega, and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got. December 1142. England is locked in civil war. The country is frozen, not just by winter, but by fear. For years, armies have marched across the land. Castles have changed hands. Loyalties have been broken and reformed. And the question of who should wear the crown has torn the kingdom apart. Inside Oxford Castle, a woman is trapped. Beyond the walls, enemy soldiers wait in the freezing snow. Their orders are keep her there until hunger, cold or desperation forces her to surrender. The castle is surrounded. The roads are watched.
- [03:49]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Escape seems impossible.
- [03:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
But the woman inside is not ready to yield. Her name is Matilda. To her supporters, she is the rightful ruler of England. To her enemies, she's arrogant and dangerous, a woman who dares to claim a king's power. She is the daughter of King Henry I, the widow of the Holy Roman Emperor, the mother of a future dynasty and the woman who has spent years fighting for a crown that was promised to her, then stolen from her. And now, in the dead of winter,
- [04:33]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
she's running out of time.
- [04:37]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oxford Castle is under siege by the forces of King Stephen, her cousin and rival. Stephen had seized the throne after Matilda's father died, moving quickly while she was across the Channel. Matilda, however, refused to disappear into the shadows of history. She crossed into England, raised her standard and fought. And for a moment, she nearly won. Stephen had been captured at the Battle of Lincoln. Matilda had entered London. The crown seemed close enough to touch. But politics is a more treacherous battlefield than war. London had turned against her. Her enemies were regrouped and fortunes shifted. And now she is here, enclosed behind stoned walls with Stephen's army closing its grip. Outside, the rivers and surrounding fields lie beneath snow and ice. The night is bitter. It's the kind of cold that numbs fingers, silences birds and makes every breath visible. It's the perfect weather for surrender. Instead, Matilda chooses to scape according to the story that would echo across centuries. She dresses in white. White cloak, white garments, white against white snow. Not the armor of a warrior. It's something far more useful. Camouflage. Under cover of darkness, she slips out of the castle. One wrong step, one shout from a guard, one crack in the ice and the game is over. She is not merely fleeing a castle. She is carrying a claim, a cause and the future of her bloodline. Across the frozen land,
- [06:45]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
with a handful
- [06:46]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
of companions, she moves silently through the winter night, across snow fields, over ice, past the men who would imprison her. Away from Oxford, towards Wallingford, where safety awaits. By morning, Matilda is gone. Stephen's trap has failed. The woman he meant to corner has vanished into the Snow. Matilda's escape became one of the defining images of her life. A woman in white crossing a frozen world, hunted but unbroken. It captured something essential about her. Again and again, Matilda was told, no. No, a woman could not rule. No, the oath sworn to her did not matter. No, her ambition was pride. No, her claim should be set aside for a man who moved faster. Again and again, she replied by carrying on. She did not win the crown for herself. She was never crowned Queen of England in the way that she believed she deserved. Yet to measure her life only by that absence is to miss the force of her achievement. Matilda survived betrayal, exile, widowhood, political humiliation, military crisis and years of civil war. She held together a cause that seemed doomed. She fought not only for herself, but for her son, Henry, who would become Henry II and found one of the most powerful dynasties in English history. So who was this empress who claimed England, challenged a king and refused to surrender to the limits placed upon her? Was she difficult, ambitious, uncompromising? Or was she exactly what the moment demanded? Royal, relentless and utterly convinced of her right? Today, to find out more about the life of Empress Matilda, I'm delighted to be joined by Elizabeth Van Houts, the Emeratus Honorary professor of Medieval European History in the Faculty of History at the University of Cambridge. Her new book, Empress Matilda, Queen of the Romans, Ruler of the English, explores the remarkable life of medieval England's only queen. Regent.
- [09:25]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Elizabeth, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [09:27]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Thank you very much. Delighted to be on.
- [09:30]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
I'm so happy that you're here, in particular, because we're going to talk about
- [09:36]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
one of, I think, the most enigmatic
- [09:38]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
people in medieval history. She's a tricky one, isn't she, Ed? Because there's so much politics going in, I think possibly the best place to begin is sort of 1127 or so. So how would you say? The dependence of Norman magnates on royal favor make it easier for Henry I to push through the idea that his daughter will succeed?
- [10:03]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Well, that's certainly a very good point. From my perspective, there is absolutely no evidence that any of them objected, given that Henry's younger son, who originally was supposed to be the heir, had died. If he wanted to continue his dynasty, he only had one legitimate child, and that was Matilda. And having reacquainted himself with his daughter for the previous year after she came back from Germany, he cannot but have been deeply impressed by, with her knowledge, the way she presented herself, that both he and his aristocracy realized she could be a very plausible candidate for the throne.
- [10:53]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
I think this is a really interesting point. Because there is a tendency, I think, to believe that for everyone in the medieval period, succession for women was just completely impossible. And obviously it's not necessarily preferred, but it is something that happens. Certainly we see it happen in other cases, perhaps not at a royal level, but I think also fundamentally this is a fairly steady pair of hands. It's not as though Matilda doesn't understand how to govern, for example.
- [11:26]
Elizabeth Van Houts
No, that's absolutely true. And what not very many people know, of course, is the early history of Empress Matilda, and between the moment she married her first husband, Emperor Henry V of Germany and Northern Italy, and the moment she returned to her father, that she was deeply involved in his government, that she acted on various occasions as his regent. And that meant, of course, that she replaced him temporarily because he was unavailable. That had been common for German queen consorts, but only when they had children. And it's very unusual that Matilda and Henry didn't have children and that nevertheless, he relied on her to stand in for him. And that means that also his court trusted her. And again, the press of Matilda in the empire in is very, very positive. And of course that then causes Matilda to become more confident. And it's certainly true that towards the end of her husband's life, we find her much more involved in the government of the empire than in the years before that. But collectively, during the periods of her active life in the empire, she acquired an enormous amount of expertise in what it meant to be either helping her husband or to act in his place as a regent.
- [13:08]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
If you are a sort of right thinking individual who primarily cares about what is happening with the government, this is great news. Right. And despite the fact that Matilda has this really excellent pedigree and she's got this really excellent training, fundamentally she does also have a half brother who is on the scene as well. Is there a particular reason that we think Henry I may have been choosing to support his daughter over her half brother?
- [13:37]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Yes, and I'm absolutely in no doubt that Matilda was preferred because she had both the Norman pedigree and the English Wessex pedigree that went back to Edward the Confessor and the kings before the Norman conquest. Whereas her half brother, who was extremely capable and Matilda would never have been able to do anything in her career if she hadn't had the support of Robert of Gloucester, because Robert of Gloucester had been born from a liaison of her father and a Norman woman. So Robert had only the Norman heritage, he didn't have this anchoring into the old English royal family. And I think that was absolutely Crucial. And that is why so many people make a great deal of Matilda's English heritage through her mother. And the fact that her mother was very well educated and that she was educated, they had the same name because Edith was renamed Matilda upon her marriage with Henry I. This fact that you have mother and daughter who both called Matilda, who both very skillful rulers, is something that also helped set up Empress Matilda as a very viable candidate.
- [15:05]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Do you think that it's possible that the fact that Matilda does embody this sort of dual Norman and English heritage, does that actually act as a deterrent for some people who would be supporting her? There's a fair intensity of opposite opposition against her as well. And is it down to this sort of Englishness? Do the Normans not want to see that?
- [15:31]
Elizabeth Van Houts
To an extent, I don't think that there is a very strong Norman antagonism against Matilda on the basis of her English heritage. After all, there were quite a substantial number of Norman aristocrats who have married English women for precisely the same reason that their children then would draw from both traditions. Where Matilda's enemies come from is from the moment Stephen becomes king, and then Matilda challenges his rule and comes to England. That is the moment that we begin to see a split in the Anglo Norman aristocracy, whereby something, since Stephen now is king, we better stick with him. And others say, well, actually, we have swore an oath to Matilda in the presence of her father twice. You cannot ignore an oath like that because any oath that is broken is seen as defying God. So once Matilda starts challenging Stephen, there is quite a bit of unease amongst the aristocracy.
- [16:47]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
It's a very interesting situation because on the one hand, yes, she does have to press the point that she is meant to be the inheritor of the crown here, because Steven just sort of gets in there first. But I tend to come down on the side of the idea that, well, what Steven manages to do here and the reason why he has any sort of support, is due to the fact that he just gets crowned first, really. It's more of a race than it is a number of people who are saying, oh, I'm not happy with a woman inheriting, because, let's be honest, there are women who inherit all over the continent. There is a legal mechanism by which daughters can inherit. It's just that Steven seems to wish to ignore that.
- [17:33]
Elizabeth Van Houts
It's very interesting that you say that, because female succession is very common in the Middle Ages and someone once looked at the female succession rate and at aristocratic level, it's about quarter of the families in the 11th and 12th century descend in the female line, and that usually that means is that on the death of a duke or a count, in the absence of sons, it's a daughter who succeeds, and then the daughter usually is married, and then it's the husband of the daughter who is the public face of the government. And, as is usual in a patriarchy, it's the man then who becomes the military supremo. What is very interesting in Matilda's case is that although she marries for a second time a man chosen for her by her father, Geoffrey of anjou, who is 11 years younger, when they marry, it's a complete mismatch. And within a few months of the marriage, she goes back to her father. It's not entirely sure. Some people say that he pushed her out, some say that she actually left. And I think it is probably a combination of the two, because if a marriage doesn't work, it's two people who are at fault. But Matilda goes back to her father and for two years she stays at her father's court and makes connections. She's networking, she is dealing with the nobility who have chose her as her father's successor. But then that same nobility then gets very uneasy, because if she is chosen to continue the dynasty, she has to produce children, she's legally married, so she has to go back to her husband. So finally, after two years, they persuade her to go back to her, to her husband, and those two years then turn out to have made a big difference. Obviously, a boy of 15 is not the same as a boy of 17, and there is a reconciliation between the couple. They jump into bed and within five years they produce three sons. So the succession then, from that perspective, is guaranteed. However, during the time that Matilda is supposedly reconciled with her husband, there is potentially a hiatus in Normandy where some people may start thinking, well, do we really want Matilda as Henry's successor? And it is possible that Stephen, during that period, realizes that here is an opportunity, as another grandchild of William the Conqueror, that he might have a go at the throne. But as far as Matilda is concerned and Henry's closest advisors, the money is on Matilda, and there is absolutely no evidence that there is a huge sway of support for Stephen. When then Henry I dies in early December 1135, Stephen, as a result of his marriage to Matilda of Boulogne, is Count of Boulogne, a day's sailing trip from London, whereas Matilda is based in Anjou, 33 or four days travel to London. And it is Stephen who then immediately seizes the opportunity to go to London and persuade the Archbishop of Canterbury to crown him king. And the Archbishop of Canterbury is very reluctant.
- [21:26]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Yeah, I suppose. I realize we haven't really talked about why this entire situation became necessary in the first place, because, you know, Matilda's married off at 12th into the holy Roman Empire. There is no real reason to understand that she ought to be her father's
- [21:42]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
successor were it not, of course, for
- [21:45]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
the White Ship disaster. Can you tell us what the White Ship disaster was and why this brings Matilda to the fore?
- [21:52]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Yeah. So Matilda was the eldest of two legitimate children of Henry I and his wife, Edith Matilda. And all along it was absolutely accepted that Matilda, being the eldest daughter, was. Was going to be married off probably abroad, and that her younger brother, only 20 months younger than her, would be their father's successor. So, as you say, Matilda was sent at the age of eight to Germany. She then was educated and prepared for marriage with Henry V. And Matilda stayed in Germany and would never, ever have any reason that she would go back to England. She was completely Germanized, almost. She spoke German fluently. She had education there. She expected to have children in Normandy and England. It was her younger brother who was accepted not only in Normandy and England as his father's successor, but also by the King of France, the overlord of the Duke of normandy. Until, in November 1120, Henry and William, that was the name of Matilda's younger brother, were both in Normandy and were going to travel back to England. There was a large group of courtiers surrounding them. They decided to travel in two ships. Henry I, with Stephen of Boulogne, went and crossed to England. And a little bit later, William, with some younger fellows, chose to board the White Ship. And the story goes that the crew of the ship was drunk. It was a very rowdy group of aristocrats who boarded the ship. And on the way out, the ship did not follow the correct course, and the ship broke up against a rock and sunk. And with the ship, 200 people perished. And apart from William Avelin, two of his half siblings were also drowned in the disaster. So the news of this disaster immediately was conveyed to King Henry, who burst into tears and obviously was heartbroken because all the planning for the future had gone haywire. You know, there's always in these dynastic families, there is the personal grief, but there is also the collapse of the succession plans. What then happened in England was that within a few months, Henry I remarried, because his wife, I should say the mother of Matilda and William Adeline, had died in 1118. Henry I realized that only by remarrying could he hope for another legitimate son. And he married a young woman from the Netherlands, Adelisa of Louvain. And what we know in hindsight is that second marriage of Henry I never produced any children. So what is ironical is that once Matilda returned to England, called back by her father, you have two women at Henry I's court who have experience as Queen's consort, who are childless. You know, Matilda herself had no children in Germany and the result was the collapse of the Salian line. And in England, her stepmother, Adelisa of Louvain, had been trying to get pregnant, never became pregnant. You know, she was married to Henry for 14 years and the marriage remained barren. So the pressure on both of them must have been enormous to know that it was, in a sense, their fault.
- [26:11]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Well, it's interesting because there are so many different forms of personal trauma that lead up to this point, because, you know, obviously, I think it seems pretty clear from Matilda's standpoint, you know, the way she. She absolutely guards this title as empress. Every document you ever see of her, as it always says, Imperatrix Matilda, you know, and she seems very attached to that. You know, I think had she had children, sons, anything, she would have been happily back in the Holy Roman Empire doing that. And so there is this truncation, there is this of what might have been there, and then this is compounded with the loss of William Adeline as well. And I do think it's interesting watching how many plans have to shift as a result of this, because as you say, Henry I, it's not as though this was his first option either. And he does seem aware that there might be some opposition to this, which is why he has to have everybody swear these oaths to Matilda.
- [27:18]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right.
- [27:18]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
You know, if you expect an easy succession for your daughter, you don't make the nobility do two oaths.
- [27:25]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Right.
- [27:26]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Well, I mean, I should say that it was a tradition in Normandy, certainly amongst dukes, that during the lifetime of a duke, he would gather his nobility and have them swear an oath to whichever son he chose to be your successor, usually the eldest son. So it was definitely a Norman tradition to have these oath swearing ceremonies in terms of the succession then, of William the Conqueror and his sons, William Rufus King after William the Conqueror, he had no children, he hadn't really thought about his succession before he died. So then it was his younger brother who there was a struggle between two of his brothers, but it was the younger, Henry I, who won, because, again, he was in England when his brother died and got himself accepted as the new king. But Henry, with regard to Matilda, might have been harking back a little bit to this Norman tradition of having oath wearing ceremonies to bind the aristocracy during his lifetime to go with the heir he had designated.
- [29:02]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Hey guys, it's Joe.
- [29:02]
Kevin
It's Kevin.
- [29:03]
Nick Jonas
And this is Nick Jonas from hey Jonas.
- [29:05]
Kevin
Do you remember growing up when it felt like every teacher had a favorite student?
- [29:09]
Nick Jonas
Everybody knew who it was. Well, I was homeschooled, so I like to think it was me.
- [29:13]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
A class of one. Congratulations.
- [29:15]
Kevin
But we're not here to talk about favorite students. We want to talk about a teacher's real favorite.
- [29:19]
Nick Jonas
Kleenex tissues.
- [29:20]
Kevin
According to Teacher List, Kleenex is the number one facial tissue brand trusted by teachers.
- [29:25]
Nick Jonas
Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are silky soft to help prevent skin irritation. And now you can take them anywhere with Kleenex Snap and Go.
- [29:33]
Kevin
Between dance, soccer, school events and everything else kids have going on after school, Kleenex Snap and Go is easy to take along. It fits in backpacks, sports bags, or even in the car. So it's ready for whatever comes next. So do the best thing for your kids and teachers. Stock up on the ultimate classroom favorite. Maybe you'll even become the teacher's favorite parent.
- [29:51]
Elizabeth Van Houts
We still haven't settled who would be the favorite in our school.
- [29:53]
Nick Jonas
We haven't settled who the favorite brother is either.
- [29:56]
Kevin
For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex,
- [30:01]
Nick Jonas
land
- [30:01]
Matt Lewis
a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week.
- [31:01]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
We also see some quick scrabbling on the part of Matilda in order to arrange an advantageous marriage for herself. At this point in time, you know, Steven is making smart decisions in terms of who he marries, but Matilda becomes betrothed to Geoffrey of Anjou. Is there a particular reason why an Angevin marriage is particularly attractive for Matilda? Or does this also introduce problems that can play out in politics later?
- [31:34]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Well, the fact that Matilda is married off to Geoffrey was entirely her father's doing. She probably would have discussed with her father, she realized that obviously, as the heir's successor, she had to marry. But all the indications are that it was her father and Geoffrey's father who between them decided that Matilda should marry Jeffrey. Matilda was appalled, coming from a situation where she was the queen consort in Germany, an empress because her husband was an emperor, to then being married off to a man 11 years younger than her, who was the son of a count and not even a count himself, in a world in which hierarchy and status was absolutely normal and accepted fact of life, to be presented with a marriage that was several ranks below where she was as empress, she absolutely hated it. That contributed to the fact that once the marriage had taken place, it collapsed and Matilda went back to her father. Now, once the couple then are reconciled, they work extremely well together. And then Matilda decides, or the couple decides, that Matilda would challenged Stephen after he had been crowned King. Geoffrey went out of his way to help his wife. And I think that right from the word go, they decided that Jeffrey would concentrate on reconquering Normandy from Stephen and pay attention to both Anjou and Normandy, and that Matilda would go to England and try and persuade Stephen to hand over the crown to her. And during the nine years that Matilda spends in England, there is good evidence that she and her husband keep in very close touch to see how the situation in Normandy improves. Geoffrey is very successful and by 1144 has reconquered Normandy. Whereas, interestingly, in England, the situation isn't as favorable to Matilda in the long term. And after nine years, the couple then decide that probably it would be best for Matilda to withdraw from England, which she does. At the moment that their eldest son Henry, is 15, and 15 is the nominal age of adulthood. It was a gamble, Matilda withdrawing from England, but they must have decided that it was probably best for Matilda to be in Normandy and help prepare Henry to ultimately challenge Stephen in England. That is what happened and the gamble paid off. Ultimately, Matilda supports her son. Geoffrey dies in 1150, Bonne Henry becomes Count of Anjou, he becomes also Duke of Normandy, and his mother is acting as regent for him on occasion. Henry then marries Eleanor of Aquitaine and his prestige in France rises enormously. And after the marriage of Henry and Eleanor, there is then a moment in 1153 that Matilda, Henry and Eleanor decide that it's now time for Henry to cross to England for a last push and try and persuade the aristocracy to back him instead of Stephen. And that is what happens. And after 20 years of civil war, the aristocracy is done, ready to give up this stalemate. And they then almost decide to support Henry as the younger pretender to the throne. One of the considerations was that most of the Norman aristocracy had land on both sides of the Channel. The argument after Henry I's death was that they would all go with Stephen, because if Stephen was King of England, it would also be best that he would become Duke of Normandy, because having lands on both sides of the Channel, it's better to have one ruler than two rulers. In 1153, the same argument applies, but the other way around, that the war weary soldiers realize that it is better for the future of their states to all back one candidate. And they then go with Henry. And Stephen somehow agrees with that. By then, Stephen had lost his wife, Matilda Boulogne, he had lost his eldest son, and it seems that he had really lost the energy to continue. You know, he would stay as King, but he was happy to then agree that Henry Fitzempus would succeed him. What then happens when Henry becomes King of England? That he not only is King of England, but he is by right of his wife, Duke of Aquitaine, he's Count of Anjou, he's Duke of Normandy, he's Count of Poitou. The whole of the west part of France is under his command. And he has assembled this realm that is often referred to as the Angevin Empire. It's huge. When you ask me what is the result of this Angevin marriage. The Angevin marriage leads to Anjou, Normandy and England to become one realm. And then as a result of the marriage with Annan of Aquitaine, Aquitaine and Fatou joined that conglomeration of territories, and it is huge.
- [38:03]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
I do think that if you are one of the nobles, you're looking at the better part of a decade of unrest and uncertainty. At the very least, when you have both Steven and Matilda vying back and forth. And if you have an individual like the Henry Fitzempress come on the scene and, you know, he has this incredible
- [38:25]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
amount of land, that means he has an incredible amount of money.
- [38:29]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
It would be very difficult to fight that. And I do think, though, that what is quite interesting in your book is you talk a lot about this, you know, in this period of, you know, what we term the anarchy now, from about 1139 to 1148, not necessarily as a time of extreme turbulence. Of course, there is political upheaval, there is the back and forth, but we do see more kind of a regional rule that is settled. What can you tell us about that? Because I really do think this is a very important point and challenges the idea that if there isn't one strong centralized authority, the kingdom will necessarily fall.
- [39:17]
Elizabeth Van Houts
That's a very good point you make, because during this period, Matilda is in England. The country is ruled by two people, Stephen in the east and Matilda in the west. They both collect taxes. They both act as military commanders of their army, with a bond difference that in Matilda's case, the actual warfare is being executed by a half brother, Robert of Gloucester. But we know of court cases that Matilda presides over, Stephen presides over court cases in the other part of England. There is a collapse of centralized government, but there are too many centralized governments, one in the east and one in the west. Now, what the result of that is not so much under Matilda's control in the west, but under Stephen's control in the east, is that you find that the nobility is acting much more independently from the ruler than was normally the case, and that the nobility also begins to encroach on royal prerogative. So, for instance, in England, the royal prerogative of coinage was extremely important. Only the king was allowed to issue coins or delegate to others who could produce coins with his image. What you find during anarchy is that particularly in Stephen's part of the world, the nobility begins to issue their own coinage. This also happens a little bit in Matilda's area, but not nearly on the scale as in Stephen's part of the country. So you see a sort of collapse in certain parts of governments of the royal power. But on the other hand, in Matilda's part of the country, what you see is that a woman can rule, because in the Southwest, people had accepted allegiance to Matilda and they supported her. And it is really quite striking how it was possible that so many men and women would choose her side in the battle, because if that hadn't been the case, you know, Matilda shouldn't have had the chance. But her followers were a very loyal bunch, and that says something about her capacity to create loyalty and friendship with a large group of people. And that's, of course, what we know about her. In Germany and Northern Italy, she did exactly the same. So her character, which very often is seen as arrogant and negative only on the basis of one very hostile chronicler, really doesn't justice to the person she really was.
- [42:35]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Hey, guys, it's Joe.
- [42:36]
Kevin
It's Kevin.
- [42:37]
Nick Jonas
And this is Nick Jonas from hey Jonas.
- [42:39]
Kevin
Do you remember growing up when it felt like every teacher had a favorite student?
- [42:43]
Nick Jonas
Everybody knew who it was? Well, I was homeschooled, so I like to think it was me a class of one.
- [42:48]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Congratulations.
- [42:49]
Kevin
But we're not here to talk about favorite students. We want to talk about a teacher's real favorite Kleenex tissues. According to teacher list, Kleenex is the number one facial tissue brand trusted by teachers.
- [42:59]
Nick Jonas
Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are silky soft to help prevent skin irritation. And now you can take them anywhere with Kleenex Snap and Go.
- [43:06]
Kevin
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- [43:25]
Elizabeth Van Houts
We still haven't settled who would be
- [43:26]
Kevin
the favorite in our school.
- [43:27]
Nick Jonas
We haven't settled who the favorite brother is either.
- [43:29]
Kevin
For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.
- [43:32]
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- [43:33]
Elizabeth Van Houts
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- [44:00]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Can we talk a little bit about that particular characterization as well? One of the things that you do a great job of arguing in the book is against this idea of Matilda losing London, as it were, because she is personally difficult and personally challenging and you know, she's asking for too much money, she's asking for too many gifts. What would you posit is the actual alternative explanation for this episode and what it says, I suppose, about what Londoners expect as a political community from their rulers?
- [44:39]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Yes, that goes really to the heart of the story of Matilda. The fact that in London the final negotiations with the Londoners collapse is in my opinion, not the results of of Matilda not being a good negotiator or a difficult character in those situations. I'm very much of the opinion that what ultimately scuppers Matilda's coronation is that during these final negotiations, the problem of having a crowned, consecrated monarch imprisoned with his family, free to do whatever they like, and being faced with a monarch who has been acclaimed monarch, a woman, simply was too difficult a problem to solve in the minds of an aristocracy that was used to one ruler. Now what we have to understand is that for Matilda this was less of a problem because coming from the empire, it was relatively common in the empire that if you had elected a king and the king was deemed not to do his job properly, you could elect an anti king in the same way as popes were elected. And if one faction they didn't like the pope, they could elect an anti Pope. So the political possibility of an alternative candidate was something that was available on the continent, but was never explored in England. And in England, it simply didn't work. And the negotiations, as far as Matilda was concerned, were still ongoing. The Londoners said when they last met Matilda, okay, we think about it next time we come with an alternative proposal. At that moment, it so happened that King Stephen's wife, Matilda, with an army, had arrived at London and put pressure on the Londoners not to give in to Matilda. And that is the moment that London erupts in violence. And Matilda realizes that she has to get out of London because she doesn't have the military might to resist and rebellious London. So Matilda very sensibly withdraws from London and regroups with a very substantial group of followers. But in retrospect, we know that that was the end of her campaign to become queen. But I'm absolutely convinced that it is less to do with Matilda as a person and more to do with the structural problem that England had never faced. Two rulers at the same time.
- [47:40]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
As you say, we do now know this to be the end of Matilda's campaign for the actual throne. But still, we certainly see that she's incredibly involved in English government. For example, you know, during the Becket crisis, she's a mediator within that, as she's also super involved in ecclesiastical politics generally. And she's also this huge patroness of the arts and literature as well. So she actually comes out incredibly strongly in terms of cultural memory. But I'm just wondering what you think this says about the ability to wield power even sans coronation.
- [48:27]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Well, Matilda certainly acted as uncrowned queen regnant for nine months in the whole of England. She then continued to act as uncrowned queen regnant during the remaining eight years that she was in the southwest of England, then during the last 20 years of her life, and she's back in Normandy. She certainly is a very active and wealthy patron for monasteries and churches. We know a little bit less about her patronage in terms of stained glass or paintings or other works of art, but she definitely is far more generous than, for instance, Eleanor of Aquitaine ever was. And part of her generosity can be explained by the enormous wealth that she had brought back with her from Germany. We know this because upon her death, she bequeathed this wealth to the monastery of Beck, where she was buried. And the monks of Beck made a list of all the gifts she made to the monastery. It is A very early example of an inventory of wealth from an elite woman. But we can sort of reconstruct the enormous wealth she brought back with her from Germany that allowed her to be so generous to those around her.
- [50:08]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
I find this such an interesting point as well, because it is this generosity which allows us to see a different side of Matilda that the quite negative sources we find, often from an English standpoint, belie. You know, we. We can see from other people's perspectives, she's a wonderful woman, a great ruler, very interested in the arts and very interested in religiosity. You know, of course, these are also bias accounts, but also, ultimately, that's what we expect from a queen. The things that queens are meant to do are these social and artistic endeavors, and she does that as well as everything else.
- [50:54]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Absolutely. What I think is important, that when she came from Germany with this massive amount of wealth, she also came with a title of Empress. She was never formally crowned by a pope as empress, but the imperial title was a courtesy title that she could use because her husband had been an emperor. So the combination of her imperial legacy with the amount of wealth must have made an enormous oppression, both in Normandy and in England and in Anjou. For one reason or another, this imperial title is something that she kept and then emphasized from the moment she launched her campaign to become queen reckoned of England. And that imperial title acted as both a psychological and a public support for herself to be taken seriously. This was not Matilda having a visitor's card with Empress Matilda and everyone else ignoring it. No, this was everyone else accepting that the way to approach Matilda was to acknowledge her imperial title. I don't think it was necessarily a PR action, but I think her whole imperial upbringing in Germany was so much part of her identity that if people accepted her, they had to accept her with that legacy, with that aspect of her life. I've often thought, when I was writing the book, can I think of a modern equivalent, you know, how to explain to readers what this might have meant for her? And I haven't really been able to come up with a modern equivalent, but all I can say is that this was so absolutely integral to the way she was, the person she was, that nobody could get past that and people accepted it. I remember one of her previous biographers, Marjorie Chibnall, at one point in her biography, said that for modern scholars and modern readers, the fact that she had the title Empress, at least make her stand out amongst all the other women who were called Matilda.
- [53:25]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Absolutely. You know, as you say, she's likely not doing it for the purposes of PR, but ultimately she certainly won that PR battle. Wouldn't we refer to her now, 800 years later? We're talking about the Empress Bathilda. Fundamentally.
- [53:42]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Absolutely.
- [53:44]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
Well, Elizabeth, I wish that I could talk to you for another three hours about this, but I cannot recommend this book highly enough for anyone who is interested in the Empress Matilda. And thank you so, so much for
- [53:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
coming to speak with us today.
- [53:59]
Elizabeth Van Houts
Thank you very much for having me.
- [54:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
My thanks again to Professor Elizabeth von Houts and my thanks to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent series with our own Matt the Rise of the Plantagenet and Ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify
- [54:27]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or wherever you get your podcasts
- [54:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
and tell all your friends and family
- [54:33]
Interviewer Elena Jarninger
that you've gone medieval. Until next time.
- [54:59]
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