Rise of The Plantagenets

Summary

Gone Medieval – "Rise of the Plantagenets"

Podcast: Gone Medieval (History Hit)
Hosts: Dr. Eleanor Janega & Matt Lewis
Date: June 16, 2026

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Overview

This lively and engaging episode celebrates the dramatic ascent of the Plantagenet dynasty, focusing on the remarkable union of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II. Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis discuss their new History Hit documentary, exploring the personalities, politics, and long-term European impact of this iconic royal couple. Through anecdotes, scholarly insights, and humor, the hosts examine how the Plantagenet "super-couple" forged a dynasty that shaped medieval England and France for centuries.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Foundations of Plantagenet Myth (03:49 – 04:44)

• The episode opens with the legendary (and colorful) Plantagenet origin story as recounted by King Richard I:

  “He knew that they had all come from the devil, and to the devil they would go.”
  —Matt Lewis, quoting Gerald of Wales (04:44)

2. Eleanor of Aquitaine: Mystery & Magnificence (06:21 – 17:19)

• Birth & Name

  • Eleanor’s exact birth date is unknown (07:17 – 08:14); this uncertainty reflects medieval attitudes toward recording women’s lives, especially those not expected to inherit (09:00).
  • The name “Eleanor” likely originated as a play on her mother’s: “Alia Aenor,” meaning “another Aenor” (09:44 – 10:24).

• Aquitaine Childhood

  • Eleanor’s upbringing at the rich, cultured ducal court of Poitiers, surrounded by music, wine, and Romanesque art (10:45 – 16:18).
  • The importance of Aquitaine’s resources and culture, and a family tree featuring scandal and the fabulously named “Dangerose de l’Isle Bouchard” (13:57 – 15:01).
  • Anecdotes from filming on location, exploring Poitiers’ spectacular cathedral and ducal palace (16:18 – 17:19).

3. Becoming Queen of France (17:23 – 26:50)

• Heir by Accident

  • Eleanor inherits Aquitaine after a series of family deaths; a rare but not unknown event for a woman in southern France (17:45).
  • Entrusted to the French king’s care, she’s swiftly married to his heir, Louis VII, making her the most eligible woman in Europe (18:51).

• Culture Clash: Aquitaine vs Paris

  • Eleanor’s vibrant, artistic upbringing contrasts with Louis’s severe, religious “fun sponge” character (19:31 – 20:33).
  • Chroniclers swiftly cast Eleanor as a potentially dangerous, manipulative woman due to her beauty, wit, and political influence (20:58).

• Early Royal Challenges

  • Eleanor forced to intervene when Louis’s political incompetence, notably a disastrous 1141 war campaign, damages his reputation (22:02 – 22:48).
  • She becomes key to diplomatic efforts but is often scapegoated for royal failures (21:40 – 22:02).

4. Crusade & Marital Breakdown (22:59 – 30:20)

• On Crusade Together

  • Eleanor accompanies Louis on Crusade — highly unusual for a queen (23:22).
  • She leads her own contingent, drawing admiration in Constantinople but facing disapproval at home (25:29 – 26:50).
  • The Crusade is both a political and personal disaster: Eleanor is sidelined, Louis makes poor military decisions, and irreparable cracks appear in their marriage (27:44 – 29:22).

• Divorce by Consanguinity

  • After returning and surviving a near shipwreck, Eleanor secures an annulment from the Pope, citing consanguinity (29:26).

“A, I’m not dead, and B, I am divorcing this man!”
—Dr. Eleanor Janega, on Eleanor’s bold return (29:22)

5. Henry II: From Anarchy to Aspiration (33:31 – 40:44)

• Formative Years

  • Henry’s mother, Empress Matilda, battles for his claim; he’s groomed as a multi-lingual, highly educated future ruler (33:31 – 34:57).
  • His precocious attempt to invade England at 14 fails amusingly, with King Stephen ultimately paying off his disappointed knights (35:47 – 38:22).

• Family Dynamics

  • Henry’s diplomatic and practical streaks are highlighted — recurring conflicts with his brothers particularly Geoffrey — and marriage prospects loom (39:39 – 40:44).

6. Eleanor & Henry: The Royal Power Couple (42:44 – 47:59)

• A Calculated Match

  • Eleanor initiates marriage to Henry, both as a personal choice and a strategic move to safeguard her lands and outmaneuver Louis (42:44 – 44:02).
  • Their 1152 wedding at Poitiers Cathedral: “It must have been an incredible thing, especially for young Henry who was so hyped that he just married this incredible babe,” Matt Lewis (45:35).

• Physical Appearances & Reputation

  • With almost no contemporary descriptions of Eleanor’s looks — perhaps because she didn’t match the era’s beauty ideal — her allure is inferred from the reactions she provoked (49:44 – 50:38).
  • Henry’s appearance described by Gerald of Wales as “ruddy complexion… a large round head… a little broad chest, strong arms and a fleshy body” (50:38).
  • A humorous aside on the disparity between AI-generated Henry and medieval sources:

    “What it spat out was perhaps the sexiest man I have ever seen in my life. So, AI, weirdly, seems to have a bit of a thing for Henry II.”
    —Matt Lewis (53:19)

7. The Crown & the Creation of a Dynasty (54:02 – 66:52)

• Securing the English Throne

  • Stephen and Henry, after the drawn-out Anarchy, agree to peace; Henry becomes the recognized heir and is crowned King in December 1154 (54:07 – 56:46).
  • The slow approach to coronation seen as an assertion of dominance and confidence (56:46 – 57:29).

• Plantagenet Legacy

  • The Eleanor-Henry marriage unites vast lands and forges the most enduring English dynasty (58:05 – 60:10).
  • Their children include Richard the Lionheart ("one of the greatest warrior kings," up for debate) and King John ("the worst king of England," not up for debate) (60:10 – 60:27).

• Daughters’ Impact

  • Eleanor and Henry’s daughters become queens and empresses, spreading Plantagenet influence across Europe. Their sons, conversely, are described as “garbage, waste men. Never did a good thing between them. Their daughters, on the other hand, consummate rulers, incredible people.”
    —Dr. Eleanor Janega (61:18)

  • Matilda becomes Duchess of Saxony and Bavaria, Eleanor Queen of Castile, and Joan Queen of Sicily and later Countess of Toulouse, each forging crucial alliances (61:18 – 64:54).

“This is really...that they are the heads of what we end up calling the Plantagenet empire. They are the people that we imagine when we think about kings and queens of England. And they really put England on the map...”
—Dr. Eleanor Janega (65:25)

8. A European Powerhouse

• Henry II, by the end of his reign, is a senior political figure sought for arbitration, and even offered the keys of Jerusalem (66:07 – 66:52).

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Notable Quotes & Humorous Moments

• On the Plantagenet Myth:

  “‘He knew they had all come from the devil, and to the devil they would go.’” —Matt Lewis, quoting King Richard I, (04:44)

• On Henry’s Failed Teenage Invasion:

  “He finds himself forced to go and see the man whose kingdom he’s invaded — Stephen...the kahunas on this kid at 14!” —Matt Lewis (36:26–37:34)

• On Eleanor as a Queen on Crusade:

  “For a queen to be going is exceptionally odd...Eleanor is going partially because she is just being an absolute legend...” —Dr. Eleanor Janega (23:22)

• On Eleanor’s Appeal:

  “Every single thing you ever read about her, even when people are trying to be haters, they’re like, she’s a really good time.” —Dr. Eleanor Janega (19:31)

• On the Daughters’ Superiority:

  “Their daughters, on the other hand, consummate rulers, incredible people.” —Dr. Eleanor Janega (61:18)

• Snarky About King John:

  “Henry and Eleanor’s one of their biggest failures...is giving us John, really, isn’t it?” —Matt Lewis (64:54)

• On Remaining Encouraged:

  “We want to keep making these, please...we're going to get you rebellious sons, we're going to get you Thomas Beckett, we're going to get you...Did Henry imprison his wife, all of those kinds of stuff.” —Matt Lewis, (67:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Plantagenet Origin Myth: 03:49–04:44
• Eleanor’s Early Life & Poitiers: 06:21–16:18
• Eleanor Becomes Queen of France: 17:23–19:31
• Eleanor & Louis’ Marital Challenges: 19:31–22:48
• Crusade & Marital Breakdown: 23:22–29:22
• Henry II’s Upbringing & Blunders: 33:31–40:44
• Henry & Eleanor’s Marriage: 42:44–47:59
• Physical Appearance Descriptions: 49:44–53:38
• Henry II’s Conquest: 54:02–57:29
• Plantagenet Dynasty Legacy: 58:05–66:52

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Conclusion

Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis provide a fast-moving, anecdote-rich overview of the Plantagenet rise, focusing not just on battles and the famous names, but the personality, wit, and contemporary perception of Eleanor and Henry. They highlight why this marriage — formed at the intersection of opportunity and ambition — created a royal line that dominated England and shaped Europe for generations. The episode strikes a balance between rigorous scholarship, humor, and personal storytelling — perfect for new and seasoned medieval history fans alike.

For more dramatic Plantagenet stories (including rebellious sons, Thomas Becket, and royal imprisonment), the hosts urge all listeners to watch the documentary to help greenlight future installments!

Transcript

[Matt Lewis]

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[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from Kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. The count of anjou felt blessed. He had a beautiful wife and four healthy children. He had only one cause for concern, but it gnawed at him until it grew from a curiosity into a concern and then a fear. Every Sunday when they sat in church, his apparently devoted countess would leave just before the elevation of the host. People gossiped about it and the count became increasingly concerned.

[Matt Lewis]

Well, one Sunday, the Countess moved to leave as always, but found her way blocked by four soldiers. She ordered them to move, but they refused. As the priest prepared the holiest part of the service, the countess threw off her gown, spread thick leathery wings, grabbed her two youngest sons and flew up into the air. The astonished and terrified congregation watched as this demonic form flew out of a high window. The Countess of Anjou and her two youngest sons were never seen again.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

King Richard I of England, remembered as the Lionheart, was the second ruler of the new Plantagenet dynasty and the vast array of lands his parents had gathered. He was fond of telling this story about the origins of their family and why they were both so fierce and so cursed. The chronicler Gerald of Wales.

[Matt Lewis]

Moreover, King Richard was often accustomed to refer to this event, saying that it was no matter of wonder if coming from such a race, sons should not cease to harass their parents and brothers to quarrel amongst each other. For he knew that they had all come from the devil, and to the devil they would go. When therefore, the route was in every way so corrupt, how was it possible that the branches from such a stock could be prosperous or virtuous?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Matt and I have a shiny brand new documentary on history hit about Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II out now. So once you've listened to this, please go watch it and tell everyone how good it is, because I'm always looking for an excuse to talk to Matt and drag him out of his dungeon. I thought we could kick back and have a nice little chat about the film that we made in the south of France. Matt, welcome up from the dungeon. Thanks for coming in here.

[Matt Lewis]

Hello. It's always a pleasure to be allowed out, even for the briefest of times. This was such a great fun film to make as well, wasn't it? I mean, I'm gonna sound like a bit of a whinger here about something that I shouldn't whinge about, but we also did go to the south of France at the hottest point in probably in history.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

It felt like it was literally 8 million degrees, literally. Which was a real test for me. Not a hot weather person, but, you know, does that help us get in touch with the heart and soul of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Possibly. Possibly. Was she a hot weather girly? We have to assume so, right?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. I mean Poitiers was just such a stunning place, wasn't it, when we went to the palace of the Dukes of Poitiers. But I think if you could draw. I can't draw to save my life. But I think if you could draw like your picture perfect idea of a medieval French town. That's Poitiers, isn't it?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. I mean it is absolutely stunning. Just down to things like the incredible cathedral which has beautiful statues of the apocalypse up front, which of course I freaked out over. So great. The ducal palace. Incredible. They have churches that have this beautiful old Romanesque architecture which would have been really legible to Eleanor at the time. And it does really make you feel in touch with the people that you are working on.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And I think if anyone wants to see approximately 45 minute documentary of Eleanor staring at apocalypse statues outside Poitiers Cathedral, we've got that.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

We've got it. That's in.

[Matt Lewis]

It's in.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

But I guess speaking of Eleanor going to Poitiers was so important because this is where she was born. Right. And that we know. But I suppose what we don't really know is when she was born. You know, we've got no idea what her birthday was. I can't do an astrology girly on her. We don't even know the year of her birth. Right. No.

[Matt Lewis]

I mean, it's so weird, isn't it? Because it's quite often given as 1124, but that doesn't seem to be based on anything in particular. We get a family kind of genealogy that's produced in 1137 that says she's 15 then, which would put her birth in 1122. But we still can't be certain, you know, exactly when her birthday is. Might affect the age that she was. So it could be a year either side of even that. And the genealogy might have been incorrect. Who knows? So we're slightly guessing even what year she's born in, let alone what date she's born.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

To be fair, this isn't that weird. For the time. People were a lot more loosey goosey about the concept of birthdays and birth years. She is not the only ruler that we don't have a really great handle on or, you know, indeed. Great thinker. The, the Middle Ages is full of people. You know, whenever I'm writing about them and I'm going and looking up birthdays, you kind of have to put circa at the beginning of their name, because we. We don't really know. It's just not something that medieval people put very much of a privilege on. You know, to them, that exactly when someone is born is not important. And that seems weird to us now, and indeed, it frustrates me. Yeah, I will say that. But it's not odd.

[Matt Lewis]

And also, we'll get to it in a second. But she's. I mean, she's a woman, and she was never meant to be the Duchess of Aquitaine. She was never meant to rule Aquitaine. So kind of once the first boy is born, everyone's like, we don't need dates of birth for the rest of them, do we? Because

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

it's like, who cares? We got what we came for. It's fine. You're just gonna marry her off anyway. She's gonna go somewhere else, be a part of someone else's family. You don't need to worry about it.

[Matt Lewis]

Someone else has got to remember a birthday then. One of the other fun things about Eleanor, I mean, you're named after Eleanor of Aquitaine, aren't you?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

I am.

[Matt Lewis]

One of the other interesting things about Elena is kind of trying to work out where that name comes from, because it's slightly unusual at the time, but. But there's some theories about where she gets her name from, aren't there?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, Because I personally choose to subscribe to this because I think it's great. Her mother's name was aor, and the theory goes that her name is kind of a play on that, and it's actually from Alia, aor, which means another aor, like. Like her mother. And I really like this, because in which case that means. Yeah, okay, I am. I'm named after Oliver V, but so is literally every other ELE on the planet. Right. Because she is the progenitor of this name. And so kind of were like, Alia Eleanor's then in that case, which is quite fun, I think.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

All of you. Not another one. As someone in Bristol would have said about general elections recently. And, you know, we mentioned that she's not the oldest member of the family. She's not the male. She's not going to inherit, or she was never meant to inherit. So we ought to paint a picture of her family. You know, what kind of family situation is she born into?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

A pretty good one, is the answer. I mean, the fact that she even ended up as the Duchess of Aquitaine is absolutely bonkers, because this was a pretty settled, wealthy family, you know? So here we are. Imagine yourself at the court in Poitiers.

[Sponsor Voice]

You.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

You won't have to if you, if you watch our show, because we'll show it to you, baby. But this is one of the richest ducal courts in Europe at the time. It is well known as a hotbed for music. It is vastly, vastly wealthy. It's got some of the best wine anywhere in Europe. And this is a very well settled house that has several, many children. So as you say, you know, Eleanor has an older brother even, you know, you know, she's got, she's got siblings. She's got siblings. She's not supposed to be anywhere near the throne. She's just going to be quite a good bargaining chip in terms of marriages. And because she's from this particular court culture, she's receiving an incredibly fine education and being brought up to be that very powerful woman, a good co. Ruler and. And someone that can give her family rather a lot of cachet on a European stage.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. And before we get to the rest of the family, you mentioned two things there that were important in Aquitaine, music and wine. Which reminds me of a little bit of time spent in a vineyard at the Chateau d'. Avril, because when we were organizing, filming this, Eleanor's rider. Eleanor's rider for agreeing to do the documentary at all was to be able to go to a vineyard. So we got to spend a lovely, lovely, very hot afternoon there. Um, I tried to embarrass myself playing a recorder, and then we drank some wine.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

I don't know, I. You know what, Matt? I think you succeeded.

[Matt Lewis]

I was gonna say I shouldn't have said tried, should I? There was no try about it. I utterly embarrassed myself with a recorder.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

That's right, Matt, I believe in you. Come on. We had a really, really wonderful time. And also, in my defense, I do think it was kind of necessary to getting to the heart of what really makes this region important. Right. What this is, this is the wine that over Europe. And that brings in a fair amount of coin at the time. Right. So what we are looking at though, in terms of the dynasty that is taking advantage of this is, as we already noted, we've got Eleanor's mother, Inord Chateauriau, and she is, interestingly, she's kind of like from a little bit more far north. Like, she's kind of. That family is kind of the southern part of northern France, if that makes sense. Right. So marrying into it from the perspective of the Dukes of Poitiers is a good idea because it kind of gets you some, I guess, protections on Your northern borders and some friendly faces when you have to show up to, you know, kneel before the King of France in. In northern France, there's also a bit

[Matt Lewis]

of family scandal behind that, isn't there? Because I know, you know, you'll have to be careful how I phrase all of this, so it doesn't sound too incestuous, but Eleanor's father is duke William the 10th, because all the Dukes of Aquitaine are called William just to be annoying and confusing. So her granddad, Duke William ix, is this kind of famous first troubadour, but such a colorful character with such a dodgy sex life. So he has an affair with a woman who has the fabulous name Dangerous de Lisle Bouchard.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Bring it back. If anyone, anyone, is having a girl child, I am begging you to name her Dangerous. Okay.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Please.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Perfect. And Ainur, who marries Duke William X, is the daughter of Dangerous by her husband. So she's not related to Duke William X, but she's his dad's mistress's daughter. Daughter. And he marries them off. I don't know. So he can see his mistress at family parties.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Listen, the mind of others is often unknowable. We can say that. But I guess in southern France, this counts as some kind of, you know, closer family ties. And you know what? We celebrate it. We celebrate it. Who doesn't want Dangerous at Christmas? Right?

[Matt Lewis]

And we should also add that Eleanor has a sister as well.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, that's Alex. Yeah. Which is a great Alex with an I. Quite chic, but she's also known as Petronilla. And she, of course, also has a brother named. No points for guessing. William.

[Matt Lewis]

What could it be? The future Duke of Aquitaine, we'll call him.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And they are all being raised in the palace of Poitiers, which we visited. And oh, my God, it's lush. I mean, it's got these really incredible 14th century sculptures in the throne room now, which are just to die for. But the bones of what would have been Eleanor's father's court are certainly still there. And it is just an absolutely stunning, stunning building. I was so happy to be able to go. And what a great excuse. I was like, yeah, I've gotta. You gotta let me into this throne room.

[Matt Lewis]

And it's when they're like, do you want to come a bit off the. Off the touristy trail? You know, we'll have to go through a bit of a building site where we're doing some renovations, but then you can get to a room that nobody else is allowed into. Would you like to do that. I mean.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

They didn't have to ask us twice, did they? That remind us, put the hard hats on.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

You were just on those hard hats. We were down the corridor. It was. I mean, that, that bit, it was actually my favorite. My favorite part because you had all these really gorgeous Gothic arches, really, really lovely stained glass, and interesting little capital bosses, too. You know, I'm always happy when there's like a little guy in the architecture. That's the thing that I want to see.

[Matt Lewis]

You know, it's your current Instagram profile picture is you in that room, isn't it?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

It is, it is, yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

That's how much you liked it.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

The way I am using that particular picture for everything now. And I'm like, oh, this. That was just taken off the beaten track in the palace of Poitiers. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm afraid you can't go there. The staff will have to take you in. So. Yeah, I am b.

[Matt Lewis]

You can go there. If you watch our documentary, though.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yes, you can. You can come with us. You can come with us. I'll get you in. Don't worry.

[Sponsor Voice]

Don't worry. Right?

[Matt Lewis]

You can hold our hands. And I guess you're moving Eleanor's story a bit further forward. So one of the things that people might know about Eleanor is that she's the only woman in history to have been the queen of both France and England. So I guess we ought to work on how does she become the Queen of France, you know, why is she a good match for the. The heir to the French throne?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, I mean, by this point in time, she has become the Duchess of Aquitaine. You know, very unfortunately for her. Her brother dies, her mother dies, and so she becomes the heir to the throne, and when her father dies, she becomes the Duchess of Aquitaine. Not that weird in Aquitaine, you know, this is something that is fairly common, especially in southern France. But she had been entrusted to the care of the French king and lo and behold, surprise, surprise. He's like, wow, now that I am in charge of your life, you're going to marry my son. And this is not a huge surprise because Aquitaine is probably the largest of any of the duchies in France at the time. Eleanor is the most, most wealthy of any of the dukes or duchesses at the time. And so marrying her in to the French crown means theoretically, the crown can get their hands on those lands. And it's. It's kind of a no brainer if you are the king of France.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I mean, she doesn't end up being Married to the heir to the French loan for very long, because very quickly, Louis, dad dies, and kind of she arrives in Paris as queen, doesn't she?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, exactly. And so now we've got yet another Louis. They're all named Louis, babe. Look, it's all Williams. It's all Louis. I'm so sorry. There were only three names to go around at the time. So they are suddenly the King and Queen of France. And they're quite young. You know, this is like, hey, let's have these teenagers rule one of the most powerful states in Europe. I'm sure it will be fine.

[Matt Lewis]

I mean, Paris must have been such a. A gear shift for Eleanor. Such a different place from Aquitaine, isn't it?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, God, absolutely. You know, everything is much more serious there. The weather is, I would say, much less bright. We can certainly say that. And there's also just a kind of a bit of a problem in terms of the match between Eleanor and Louis, because here's Eleanor, and by all accounts, every single thing you ever read about her, even when people are trying to be haters, they're like, she's a really good time, right? She's kind of sparkling, she's witty, she's used to this court culture that revolves around live music and artistry. And Louis. Well, Louis wasn't supposed to be the king of France either, right? Like, he was supposed to be, you know, a spare. And so he was being raised to be in the church. And when his brother died and he did become the heir, suddenly you got this real church fied guy who is going to be the king of France. And he is, by all accounts, just a real downer, just an absolute fun sponge of a guy. And this is a real challenge for Eleanor.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And I mean, we don't see one of those situations in which opposites attract, do we? I mean, they. They. And it's weird how early the chroniclers start talking about this idea that Louis is so obsessed and besotted with Eleanor that she's kind of controlling him. So even this early in her first relationship to Louis, we're seeing her being painted as a very specific type of woman.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. You know, she does appear to most people as a threat because she is, by all accounts, incredibly attractive. Weirdly, we don't know what she actually looks like. We only know that she is very hot, she is very charming. She's very erudite. You know, a speaker of several languages, avid and ferocious reader, and someone who was raised to rule. And so that's what she gets involved with almost right away. And almost right away, she ends up having to be very involved in politics because Louis is not very good at the political side of things. I think that that's a fair thing to say, wouldn't you?

[Matt Lewis]

I think so. I don't think he's interested. Not very good at balancing all of those things. He gets his dad's old advisor, Abbott Soucair, kind of out of retirement because he's so desperate for someone to help him rule. But people seem to see Eleanor behind pretty much everything that goes wrong for Louis, because Louis's rubbish. But you can't say the king's rubbish. It's easier to say his wife's not very good.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And, I mean, he's being rubbish almost immediately. You know, in 1141, he's got this. This war to lose. And basically there was no real reason for this to have had to break out in the first place. You know, you as the King of France, why are you, as the king of France, like, actually going to war with your subjects? That means that there's been some failed diplomacy somewhere along the way, and it just doesn't look great, does it? And fundamentally, they are having a difficult time drumming up much popular support for it either, because it all seems so unnecessary. So almost immediately, Eleanor is kind of having to come in and kind of negotiate with varying partners.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of that goes wrong. Louis isn't getting a good reputation. I mean, he. There's a. I think there's a church during that campaign. There's a church that gets burned, full of innocent people.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

And.

[Matt Lewis]

And it's the chronicler start talking about, you know, Louis is so emotionally affected by this that he leaves the campaign and kind of is probably the. The driver for his desire to go off to the Holy Land on crusade, which he and Eleanor do in 1147. And I guess one of the questions people might have is how common is it for a queen like Eleanor to be going on Crusade at this point?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

For a queen to be going is exceptionally odd. And part of the reason why one wouldn't do that is usually you leave the queen home because she's going to be doing rather a lot of ruling while you're away. But Eleanor is going partially because she is just being an absolute legend and she is at the head of her own contingent coming from Aquitaine, but also because of the whole war with Toulouse thing. Louis had got himself in some trouble with the church, and the church had taken an incredibly dim view of these particular sieges. Because, let's be so for real, they were, as a result of the fact that Louis also wanted to pick who would be a bishop, and the church was always saying, no, you don't get to do that. So to get out of this mess. In order to avoid Louis getting excommunicated and Franz being put under interdict, Elanor meets with enemy of the podcast future Saint Bernard of Clairvaux.

[Matt Lewis]

He's got his nose in everything at this time, hasn't he?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Ah, he's just the worst. And he basically negotiates with Eleanor. And Eleanor plays an absolute blinder here. She, like, pretty cries and it's like, oh, oh, Bernard. I just. I think that maybe the real problem is we're having a hard time conceiving children and, oh, ho, ho, maybe if I was a better wife, he wouldn't have attacked to lose question mark, you know? And Sabernard is completely flustered by this and is like, yeah, oh, ten veil Hail Marys, I guess, and go on. Go on Crusade. Go on Crusade. And Eleanor's like, yeah, okay. So she goes back and she's like, look, you're not. You're not excommunicated, but we're going to have to go on Crusade, right? So she's already inserted herself at this level, and that sort of means she kind of has to go along.

[Matt Lewis]

I think there's also an element of the French polity by this point, maybe viewing Eleanor in such a way that they don't want her left behind as regent, that they prefer Abbot Sucair to be regent. So the only way you. You get around a queen being regent is to shuffle her off on Crusade with the king.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And I think that you're probably bang on here. And I find it so funny because all of our records, again, indicate, though, that maybe the French didn't love whatever was going on with Eleanor. But I'll tell you who did were the Byzantines. She shows up in Constantinople and it's like a riot. Everyone is like, we love this woman. She is incredible. She's so funny. She's so pretty. She's so clever. Wow. And she's here to save the day. And they're like, oh, and also Louis,

[Matt Lewis]

she bought her husband with him.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

It's one of these things.

[Matt Lewis]

But I think going to Byzantine, getting into Constantinople must have felt much more like going home to Eleanor than Paris had. It must have been so much more of a colorful, kind of relaxed environment where she was able to enjoy some of the stuff that she might have been missing since she'd had to leave Aquitaine.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. And so, you know, here she is really mixing it up with the highest and most, you know, really worldly people. You know, Constantinople really being the biggest city in Europe at the time, and just this absolute glittering jewel in the crown of Christendom. And I think for her, it was just really nice to sort of be somewhere where she could mix with a group of people who appreciated an erudite woman.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. But that might have been the last time she enjoyed anything on the Crusade, I'd imagine.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, spoiler. But, you know, the. The Crusade, we get into this rather a lot in. In this show. But the Crusade goes badly. I mean, as do all Crusades other than the First. Right. Crusade goes incredibly badly. Eleanor sees herself as being there to support her Uncle Raymond, and he is not particularly enthused about Louis. Louis is very impetuous, is constantly striking out on wants to expand the Crusade to mean getting to Jerusalem when that had not been the idea in the first instance. The entire thing ends up in a total mess. Which also means that there is a total breakdown in Eleanor and Louis relationship.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And it often strikes me that Louis. I don't know if Louis ever really wanted to go on a military crusade, or did he just want to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem because he's so obsessed with getting there. He's ignoring, you know, Raymond of Poitiers saying, well, here's a really good battle plan for how we take back the Holy Land. We attack here, here, you know, weaken the supply lines around here. And Lou is like, no, we go straight to Jerusalem. That's what we do. You know, and it feels like he just, you know, he just wanted to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and he kind of wrapped it up as a Crusade, I think, and it didn't work.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

I think this is a really great way of looking at it. You know, he doesn't seem to be at all interested in any of the battling that is supposed to be happening. It's just this idea that if we make this mad rush to Jerusalem, everything will be okay. And, you know, whether or not he had any exit plan or thought anything could actually change is another question. And, you know, the relationship for Eleanor becomes increasingly untenable, because whatever else you might want to say about her, she's a real planner. You know, she's a deeply sensible individual who is used to taking advice from people around her. And you've just embarrassed her in front of her uncle. You know, she's come all the way over to the Holy Land now everything is just completely out the window. And you're acting a fool. Right. So what ends up happening when they head back? I mean, first of all, they're not even, like, getting ships together. Eleanor is then lost at sea for a month, question mark. Everyone thinks she might be dead, and she shows back up, and she's like, a, I'm not dead, and B, I am divorcing this man. This is not my husband.

[Matt Lewis]

See, I just had a very nice holiday in Cyprus, thank you very much.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

She writes to the papacy, and she says, I think I need a divorce from this guy due to consanguinity. Which is sort of the only reason you can usually get a divorce other than erectile dysfunction. If you're a woman, the only thing you can say is, oh, it turns out I'm too closely related to this guy. And at this point in time, the Pope is like, you know what? Fine. I'm sick of you too. You are a huge pain in the neck, and I would love it if you would get divorced. So there you go. The terrible holiday that ruined a marriage.

[Matt Lewis]

And I guess at this point, you know, part of the thing with this documentary, one of the things about Eleanor is, you know, she lives this. This entire spectacular medieval life of being Queen of France and going off on crusade and all of those things before she even meets Henry. But at some point, we've got to bring Henry into this story, too, because he's the other half of this deal.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Absolutely. And, you know, Henry is similarly, interestingly scrappy upbringing, I suppose, Right? Can we say that? You know, I think he's coming out of the turmoil of the anarchy because his mother, of course, was your friend and mine. Friend of the podcast. The Empress Matilda. We love her legend. We love her. Right? At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones Member, SIPC the pressure to

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[Matt Lewis]

So his mom, Matilda, has been kind of fighting to keep their claim to the throne alive against Stephen. You know, we could get into the whole anarchy, fascinating stuff. But by the time Henry is getting a little bit older, his mom has sort of after 11:41, after the battle of Lincoln captures King Stephen, then he has to be released. And I think this drives home for her that she's never gonna make herself queen. But what she does do is think, well, I can keep this claim alive for my son, for Henry, who, you know, named after his grandfather Henry I. And so by the time he's getting of an age to get himself involved, she's taking a little bit of a backseat. He spent some time in England already, so he comes over. He's born in 1133, comes over in 1142, spends some time at Bristol with his uncle Robert of Gloucester, where he kind of continues his education with some of the most enlightened minds in Britain at the time. And he also, you know, we know he's getting an incredibly good education back on the continent when he returns there as well. William of Conch is one of his tutors. He's a really famous academic academic. And later in Henry's life, people will talk about the fact that he reads books voraciously, that he can speak Every language in Europe, basically, at least enough to understand and speak to ambassadors. And I don't think you can do the things that Henry manages to do when he's king without being a pretty clever guy. So it's clear he's getting an education befitting someone who is going to rule one day.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. And I think that these are things that are all going to set him in very good, steady. Firstly for ruling England, but also ruling a huge landmass that does encompass lots of different languages, does have a lot of different cultures. So he's really brought up to be able to understand that the world contains very many things which you might need to know about. And he does end up, you know, pressing this point, pressing the point of his fitness for succession. Right. So, you know, he, he starts trying to invade England when he's 14. Like, come on, kid, I love it. Like, it gives it the old college try in 1147, you know, which is just a wonderful thing to see where you're like, yeah, just go on out there. I hope he has fun.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I, I. It's one of my favorite stories about Henry because he, you know, he's 14 years old, he gets together a bunch of his mates, knights, but his mates, and they head over to England and, and you get the chroniclers at the time writing that, you know, this was the thunderstroke that shook England. Henry has arrived with a huge army and he's got barrels full of treasure to bribe everybody. And we are about to enter the biggest phase of war this nation has ever known. And everybody's terrified. And then it turns out it's Henry and half a dozen mates and they've got no cash. And it doesn't go very well.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

There's a bunch of boys going way, way,

[Matt Lewis]

lads holiday to the south of England and they end up, you know, he, he ends up, it goes really bad. He tries to lay siege to some castles. It doesn't work out for him. And then he's stuck at 14 with this situation where he, he goes to his mum, who's still in England at this point, and says, can you pay my nights for me because I promised that they'd get paid kind of out of all of our glittering successes of which we have had none. And his mom says, well, no, you know, you made your bed, you lie in it.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

That's good parenting if you've used your

[Matt Lewis]

pocket money for something else. Yeah, get on the naughty step. So he then goes to his rich uncle, Robert of Gloucester, who, you know, he spent Time with before. And Robert is, you know, a chivalric figure, also incredibly rich. And he says, uncle Robert, will you pay my knight so that, you know, I can go home with my honour intact? And Uncle Robert's a bit like, what did your mum say? What did mom say? And Robert refuses to pay it too. And so he, Henry, finds himself forced to go and see the man whose kingdom he's invaded. Stephen, he like rooks up at Steven's house and says, steve, will you just pay these nights so that we can all go home, please? I mean, the kahunas on this kid at 14, I've just invaded your kingdom. Can you just pay us off to

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

go now, Uncle Stephen?

[Matt Lewis]

And the bizarre thing is that Steven agrees to do it. Stephen pays him off so he can go home. And this is one of those things getting on my Stephen soapbox a little bit. There's one of the things that Stephen gets blamed for. You know, it's ridiculous that he paid these men off, but I think it serves two ends. It gets them out of his kingdom. You know, it gives him a little victory over Henry. But I think it also, if you look at what happens a little bit later when the anarchy is coming to a close, I think this is a moment that creates this kind of almost like a connection, a well of sympathy between Stephen and Henry because Henry never goes for the jugular with Stephen. And I can't help wondering whether this goes Back to at 14, he's actually the only one who helped me out. He's the only reason that I left England with my honor intact and my men paid.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. And I think also to Steven's credit, one of the things that it does is it shows that he's not rattled, right. Like he can say, yeah, I'm not bothered if a 14 year old shows up and attempts to attack me because it's preposterous. Obviously I'm the king of England. There you go. You, the lads go on home, you've had your fun sort of thing. So I, I think that, that you're

[Matt Lewis]

right, that was, that was cute.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Have some, right. Like he plays a blinder there, you know, show everyone that you're not bothered by it.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And then, I mean, he waits, he waits three years till he's 17, which, you know, that's a great age, isn't it? 17. He's a man now and he gets these series of setbacks. He's planning to invade England from 1150. We get, we see in the documentary, we went and saw Nicholas Vincent at The British Library, who got some horoscopes that Stephen had cast around 1150, when Stephen is kind of dabbling in this new science of horoscopes that's just moving out of the east with connections with the Crusades. And he's kind of saying, you know, if I get all of the barons to swear allegiance to my son Eustace, will it work? And interestingly, you get this guy casting the horoscope going, well, the signs all say that if you involve someone who casts horoscopes, then it'll work. So it's a little bit of job creation going on.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, we could have learned so much from the past. You know, what can I say?

[Matt Lewis]

So what's the. Yeah, it's only going to work if you get me involved, keep me on the payroll. And then he's, you know, he's having horoscopes cast, asking whether a certain person is going to invade the kingdom in that year. And the guy casting the horoscopes is going, no, I mean, it's a 50, 50 question, isn't it? And to be fair, that was probably cast in 1151. And he doesn't invade in 1151, because as he's got his fleet ready to go, his dad, Geoffrey, the Count of Anjou, dies. So at kind of 18, he's now count of Anjou, and he's actually beginning to get into all these titles. He was already Duke of Normandy. His dad conquers Normandy and just gives it to him. Now he's Count of Anjou and head of the family as well. His little brothers are particularly. Geoffrey is endlessly causing him problems, kicking off rebelling, thinking he's entitled to more than he's got his hands on. And then in 1152, he's ready to invade England again. And all of a sudden, he gets this letter from this newly divorced lady down in the safe. She's like, do you fancy coming to marry me? And I think it's interesting that it's Eleanor who approaches Henry, isn't it?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah. I think that this is something where again, my girl, she's untouchable, the best to ever do it right, because she is in this terrible position after she divorces Louis, because now she is once again the most wealthy possible marriage prospect in Europe. And as she's trying to get back to her lands from the whole, you know, holiday in Cyprus debacle, she faces two attempted kidnappings on the part of varying would be suitors. You know, how romantic, right? And, you know, she doesn't want the Comedown of being a duchess again, you know, once you've become a queen, you don't want to have to get knocked back down a couple of ranks. And also, you know, I think she kind of wants to annoy her ex a little bit. And who amongst us, you know, could say that, that, that isn't delicious? So, you know, she approaches the, the young Henry, because in theory, he might be coming into some land soon. He's certainly coming into a lot of French lands at the very least. And this is would be annoying to Louis in the first place, because that is going to unite this, these two houses, and they are going to have more French land than he does, which is very funny. And then, you know, if and when Henry becomes King of England, she will be Queen of England. So she's the one who's like, hey, you want to get married? And she also knows this is going to work because she's met Henry before, and Henry's eyes were popping out of his head with hearts. He was hitting himself on the head with a mallet and his tongue was on the floor. And so she's like, I think I can win this one. Right? So, you know, it's the equivalent of getting like a letter from a pop star saying, oh, hey, do you want to get married, 17 year old boy? And Henry is like, yes, yes, I do. Thank you very much.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. I always imagine him, you know, he's preparing for this big invasion. He's got all his soldiers there, and he gets this letter. And I always imagine him in another cartoon character version with his feet, like, he can't run on the floor fast enough. His feet won't keep up with him. He's desperately just trying to run down to the south because I think Eleanor must have been. Also, this is probably a fairly calculated decision on Eleanor's part, because we know Louis did his best to try and keep Aquitaine on behalf of their daughters, and Eleanor managed to retain control of Aquitaine. But she knows, I think once she gets back there, there's those two abduction attempts, the second one of which is by Henry's younger brother, by the way.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Nice.

[Matt Lewis]

But she knows that she's gonna have trouble. She needs someone at her side. Well, she's probably going to have to get married, because if people are trying to abduct her, how long can she avoid that? It might be better if she gets to choose who it is. But she also needs someone who can be an effective rival to Louis, someone who can protect her and her lands against Louis. And if you cast around Europe at this point, who is the obvious answer? It's this 17 year old kid who is on the up. He's Duke of Aquitaine, he's Count of Anjou, he's about to invade England to try and make himself king there. Everything is going his way and like you say, he's someone who can really rattle Louis and you know, listen, we

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

know he's not afraid to start a battle, so you know that that's a good thing. This is someone that you want in your corner, right? And to be fair, he, he takes this up. It is a great, it's a great marriage proposal from his standpoint. You know, obviously you get to marry a bonafide hottie, but also there's a ton of lands in it for you. And this is all an incredibly wealthy parcel of land that should you need money to go, say, invade England, you can always draw from the coffers of Poitiers. So he, Dudley shows up in poitiers and on 18 May 1152, the two of them get married at Poitiers Cathedral. Can you imagine? Is so beautiful. Really a real stunner of a cathedral in my opinion.

[Matt Lewis]

I mean, it's a gorgeous building, isn't it? There was that one chapel on the side that had all the paintings on the ceilings that they've only fairly recently uncovered that Henry and Eleanor might have looked at, you know, when they were there getting married.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

But I mean, stunning building, it's just really gorgeous. I've mentioned it already. I'm going to mention again the statuary on the outside of it. They've got a really incredible apocalypse scene with everyone getting up out of their graves. A nice little hell mouth. Matt took some very funny pictures of me just obsessing over it as well. You know, it's like at any time we were not filming, I was drunk.

[Matt Lewis]

Also, Matt very much enjoyed standing next to you and asking you what it all meant and having an expert on that kind of thing standing next to me, explaining it all to me was absolutely fantastic.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And I mean also just the streets around the cathedral are so beautiful down there. You know, everything is kind of made out of the same, you know, lovely kind of Poitier limestone. You can really see the medieval layout of the city. And I think that it goes a long way to helping you sort of imagine what life must have been like for them. And you know, the lovely procession back from the cathedral to the ducal palace afterwards, it must have been an incredible thing, especially for the young Henry who was so hyped that he Just married this incredible babe, you know?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And you can't help wondering, you know, they get married in May. You can't help wondering if it was as hot as it was when we were there as well. Because one of my favorite moments was getting an iced coffee after we'd been filming.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think I also made everyone get Monaco's One Night, which is kind of French shandy. It's lager, soda water and grenadine. Try it. You'll like it. You'll like it.

[Matt Lewis]

I'm just saying, do try it. It was very, very good. It was not just one night that we had those.

[Sponsor Voice]

It was very good.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

No, indeed.

[Matt Lewis]

And we've mentioned a little bit about, you know, we don't know too much about what Eleanor looks like, but there is this sense that she's this incredibly attractive, intelligent woman. And I guess the one counter to that, that we do get in the documentary was when I got went to see Nicholas Vincent at the British Library. He'd recently been doing some work on a source. And this. This is a source that is incredibly negative, hostile to Henry and Eleanor. So we take it with a pinch of salt. Absolutely. But this seems to be poking a lot of fun at Henry and essentially saying that later on in their relationship. So after they've been married for a while, Henry is having to take aphrodisiacs in order to be able to sleep with Eleanor. So, you know, he's trying to obviously disparage Eleanor in particular, I guess, but poke a little bit of fun at Henry's sexual prowess a little bit later in his life as well. So we stuck with this sense that we don't know what Eleanor looked like. We have all of these notions, particularly when she's younger, of her being incredibly attractive and people wanting to be around her and having that kind of magnetic personality. And then we get this random source that says, oh, yeah, but Henry, you needed a bit of help to sleep with her.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Well, you know, for me, I, I find this, this all quite interesting because to an extent, you know, in, in the Middle Ages, there's this beauty ideal for women. And there's one, right? And it is kind of created around in the 12th century, and then it holds after that. And the ideal woman has blonde hair, gray eyes, white skin, you know, and this is, this is what you're supposed to look like. And so oftentimes we do find that if people don't live up to that ideal, we just don't hear anything at all. Which to me indicates, like, I would guess, if I had to guess, I would say that Eleanor maybe has brown hair and brown eyes. Because since that doesn't match the ideal, you just don't say it right. And indeed, you know, she's this gorgeous Southern French woman. And, you know, I think that when we, when we imagine Gallic beauties, you know, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking like Juliette Binoche. I'm thinking about women like that, right?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, interestingly, we do have an idea of what Henry looks like. And this is given to us by Gerald of Wales, who, you know, is quite pro. Henry. He likes Henry. He writes all throughout Henry's reign. And I mean, I'll read the description that he gives us of Henry because I don't think he paints him in a particularly nice light, given that we're so used to hearing that princes and kings are always the most handsome man in the room. They're always so ridiculously good looking. What Gerald tells us about Henry is, he writes, henry ii, king of the English, was a man of ruddy complexion. I mean, that doesn't fit with the beauty ideal of being quite pale, does it? With a large round head. I mean, slow down. Okay, he gets grey eyes. He gives him grey eyes, fierce in anger and so fused with blood. Fiery, mean, harsh voice, Neck bent forward toward the shoulder, a little broad chest, strong arms And a fleshy body. I mean, none of that is. Is. Is making you think four.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah. Like, here's a looker. Right. I suppose that what we are getting, though, is a really clear idea of a man who is a man of action, I suppose. Right. You know, when we've got the broad chest, strong arms, fleshy body, that's like a, you know, virile potency. A man's man, if you will, you know. Oh, clearly he's got lots of excess blood. Right. Which is what you're supposed to have if you're a man. Right. Like from humoral. So, yeah, it's not particularly flattering per se, but I guess it's probably going to be true as a result of that. Right, that's quite interesting.

[Matt Lewis]

I think it makes it reliable because it's not simply saying that he meets all of the beauty standards of the day and is the most attractive man in the room. It's kind of giving him a real. A very real face that we can almost imagine. Although I will say so. I wrote a book about Henry and Eleanor and I do a talk on it as well. And this was around about the time. I'm not a massive fan of AI, but I was playing with AI, and I thought, what happens if you put this description from Gerald of Wales into AI? Will it give me a picture that I think might look like Henry ii? Because we don't have any portraiture of him or anything like that. So I put this description into AI, and it's like a medieval king based on this description. And what it spat out was perhaps the sexiest man I have ever seen in my life. So, AI, weirdly, AI seems to have a bit of a thing for Henry ii.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

AI wants to shag Henry ii. Wow. Okay. All right.

[Matt Lewis]

I think it does. I'll show you the picture.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Please show me the picture immediately. But, you know, if all the AI can do is mirror back things that humans have already done, perhaps this says something about the collective unconscious and we're all wanting to shack head.

[Matt Lewis]

I think that's fair. That's a fair comment. There's our subtitle for the episode. And I guess we ought to move on to kind of the conclusion of this documentary, because this is about their rise, their separate lives, and them eventually coming together. And what we really, really want is to go and make some more of their story. So please, everybody watch it and enjoy it and tell history. Hit how amazing it is.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

We are begging you. We want to keep making these,

[Matt Lewis]

please. So we ought to get on to how they become King and Queen of England. So finally, after all those setbacks, 11:52, after he's married Eleanor, Henry does manage to invade England. We get this kind of weird standoff with Stephen where they seem to. Henry tears around the countryside a little bit, causing a bit of chaos. The two of them never really come to blows. There's a couple of times when they seem to line up either side of a river in the pouring rain and go, oh, if this river wasn't here, we'd definitely be having a fight right now.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, I would get you.

[Sponsor Voice]

Oh.

[Matt Lewis]

And then we get. One time they have a conference on an island in the middle of the river at which only Steven and Henry are present. And then the chroniclers continue to tell us exactly what they discussed while they were on that island when no one else was there, as they choose. So again, we have to be really careful about what they're putting into people's mouths. But essentially, the standoff is concluded when Stephen's son Eustace dies unexpectedly. And Stephen kind of makes an arrangement with Henry by which he effectively adopts him and names him as heir to the throne of England. So we've got this kind of almost 20 years of conflict is kind of ended in a peaceful manner.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And it's a really interesting one. I think it's also funny where it's like, take that Eustace, this poor guy,

[Matt Lewis]

his dad's just like in the Chroniclers, that Eustace saw this coming, that he thought his dad wasn't going to fight Henry. So he goes off into the east country, goes off into Norfolk and just goes on a mad rampage until he gets ill and dies. He just throws a massive tantrum, you

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

know, well, what might have been, am I right? With a wonderful consistency like that, he would have made a great king. Yeah. I do find that this is really interesting because, you know, we do then have Stephen agreeing that Henry is going to be the heir, and then Stephen dies in October of 1154, and we don't see Eleanor and Henry rush to be crowned King and Queen. And I find this incredibly telling. They are not crowned until the 19th of December, so that, you know, they've got a good long chunk of time in between. And I think that shows a fair amount of bravery on their part. But, you know, and in the same way that Stephen letting Henry go back to France, I think, is sort of showing I'm not afraid, you know, I am the true king. I think them really taking the time to be crowned says something about their confidence in what is happening?

[Matt Lewis]

It's a really bold move when you think of the, the recent history of the English crown because, you know, Stephen had snatched the crown, Henry's grandfather, Henry, I had snatched the crown before that. They leave this kind of two month window into which somebody else could have stepped. And I can't help wondering whether Henry does it very deliberately, almost as a dare. It's like, you know, if you're going to show your hand, I dare you to do it.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

It.

[Matt Lewis]

I dare you.

[Sponsor Voice]

But.

[Matt Lewis]

And if you don't do it, then you're accepting that I'm the king when I get there, because there's nobody but me that can do it.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Make a piece with it is now or never kind of a thing. And, and nobody did anything fundamentally. And, and you're quite right too, because these are two of the wealthiest people in Europe. If you are going to try to face them down, you better come with a hell of an army, you know?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't have stood in Henry's way unless he looked like what AI thinks he looks like. And then I, I've gotten his way.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Hello, Henry. Hello. Oh, am I in the way? Oh, no, you're gonna have to push past me anyway, Eleanor of Aquitaine, I'm not trying to cheat on you with Henry ii. Anyway, I guess here is as good a place as any to kind of consider how significant Eleanor and Henry are in terms of the establishment of a real lasting dynasty. Right?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. I mean, you know, we get into 331 years of their direct descendants ruling England. I mean, that's no mean feat. That's the longest surviving English dynasty to date. And I think there's a couple of really interesting things about what they do as well. So their relationship with Louis vii. So Eleanor's X, which is kind of crafted by the fact that Henry's married his ex really, really quickly. And Henry has also accumulated far more of France than Louis controls, which makes the king of England then look like a huge, huge threat to the Capetian king of France. And in Louis VII's case, it takes him a long time to have a son. So I see him getting increasingly nervous. And I think the relationship with Louis VII and then his son that he does eventually have, Philip ii, Augustus, and the relationship that Philip has with Henry in his later years and then also with Henry's sons, is something that I think we can see that defining the relationships between England and France for centuries that follow. This is the beginning, really, of the idea that England and France are enemies who are always at war.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Oh, absolutely. Because before this, I mean, what would be the point? I mean, sure, you've got Normandy as a real issue, and one of the things that the kings of England never really like, but the French king doesn't care. You know, the French king's like, yeah, sure, buddy. Like you're the Duke of Doverdee and also an island with some sheep on it. Okay, brilliant. Fine. But if you control Anjou, Aquitaine and Normandy, listen, now there's a problem, and that is going to be a much larger issue for the King of France. And fundamentally, it just means that money can flow in varying directions more easily. And listen, they do have so much money, they do have so much power. It's this dynasty that really gives birth to some of at least the most recognizable, the most household names of a lot of the medieval English kings.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I think. I mean, you know, just their children. You've got Richard the Lionheart and King John. So, you know, someone who has been remembered for centuries as one of the greatest warrior kings of England up for debate, and someone who has been remembered as the worst king of England. Probably not up for debate.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Probably not up for debate.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, no.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

So you've got kind of real polar opposites amongst their own children. But as you say, some of those most recognizable names. Edward III is a descendant of. Of this pair. You know, the man who rules England for 50 years and gets us neck deep in the Hundred Years War and all of those kind of things you can stretch under. Henry V, you know, is part of this same dynasty. Some of the really famous names that we associate most with English medieval history can trace their lineage back to Henry and Eleanor.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

And I mean, that is true all over the continent as well. Because, listen, one thing I will say is that I believe that Henry and Eleanor's sons are garbage, waste men, all of them. Never, never did a good thing between them. Their daughters, on the other hand, consummate rulers, incredible people.

[Matt Lewis]

I think Henry and Eleanor's sons probably hated their sisters because they were such a good example of what children should be, that they made the brothers look so, so bad. And, you know, they all make spectacular marriages. And so the oldest daughter, Matilda, marries Henry the lion, the Duke of Saxony and Bavaria. So, you know, is big in Germany. We get this lovely story when Henry the Lion falls out with the Holy Roman Emperor and is kind of exiled. He decides to come to England to his father in law's house. And Matilda, we're told, you know, the Holy Roman Emperor says, you can stay here and I'll Give you an income, you're perfectly safe. Don't worry about it. And Matilda's like, no, it's fine. If my husband's going to England, so am I. And then the sources give us lots of really touching detail about Henry and Eleanor having their. The daughter they might never have expected to realistically see again, suddenly back in England with her husband and all of their children. So they're bringing the grandkids, and you've got Henry and Eleanor, like, running around like idiots. And I imagine, you know, Henry being ridden by a horse, like a horse by his grandchildren and all that kind of stuff. You get this impression of a really nice, close family environment for the time that Matilda is in exile in England.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

I just think that, you know, I love that for her. She deserves it. Right. Let's see. Can we talk about the other Eleanor, though? So their daughter Eleanor marries incredibly well, Right. So she marries Alfonso viii, who is the King of Castille Iteledo. So she's. She's a queen. She's just a straight up queen. And this is where these Spanish Eleanors start coming from. Right. So when you have, like, Eleanor of Castile, who will be the queen of England later, it's as a result of these Eleanors making it fashionable down Spain. And she does incredibly well down there, like a very beloved queen, really considered to be a steady hand on the tiller. And it's a really successful marriage, that one. Alfonso and Eleanor.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And we get, you know, Matilda's son will go on to become a Holy Roman Emperor. Is it Otto iv? You know, your emperor's better than I do. Otto iv, well done. One of Eleanor's daughter will become Queen of France, you know, the mother of Louis ix, the saint. And then we've got the youngest daughter, Joan, who is, first off married to William ii, who is the King of Sicily, who is also a Norman. Norman kings of Sicily. And she seems to have done okay there until he dies and she gets wrapped up in the civil war there. And Richard, on his way to crusade, swings by and I want to say, rescues her. So we've got a fantastic episode on Joan in the back catalog with Cath Hanley, who wrote a biography of Joan. And she very much makes the point that Richard looks like he swings by to save Joan. What he does is swing by to save, to get Joan's money to fund his. His crusading desires. And then she gets. She gets married to Raymond vi, the Count of Toulouse. And. And this seems like such an unhappy marriage that she will later turn up at Fontevra Abbey, where her mum has retired pregnant, having left her husband. And she, she asks to be inducted into the, the nunnery and she's, she's accepted as a pregnant married nun, but unfortunately dies, you know, not long after childbirth. She's, she's fairly seriously ill by the time she, she gets there. So, I mean, just another incredible story from this family, you know, and, and

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

to have the force of will to make a move like that really speaks well of Joan, I would say, and, you know, shows that Eleanor, I think, did a great job raising her daughters, if not her sons.

[Matt Lewis]

I'll just say that, yeah, we'll ignore them for now. Did not do it great. I mean, Eleanor's one of their biggest failures. Henry and Eleanor has given us John, really, isn't it? It's, it's hard to get around that.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah. Well, you know what it happened there. Eleanor basically didn't raise him. He was just with Henry the whole time. So, you know, there's your issue.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Fair.

[Matt Lewis]

And I guess the, so big question for the end of this, we want people to go and watch the documentary, so we're probably going to over egg this here, but does, does the rise of the Plantagenets, the birth of this new dynasty, is this a moment that defines medieval English history?

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yes, thank you for coming. But yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because I think this is, this is really, you know, that they are the heads of what we end up calling the Plantagenet empire. They are the people that we imagine when we think about kings and queens of England. And they really put England on the map because of their lands in France and their incredible connections across the continent, all these really wonderful marriages that they make for their children. They really establish England as a key player within Europe and it simply hadn't been before. It just hadn't been.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And I think that's driven home by the fact that by, by the time Henry is getting on a little bit and he's been king for, for kind of 30 years, he's seen very much as this kind of senior political figure in Europe. He's the grown up, you know, everybody's going to Henry to try and get their, their feuds resolved. When Philip Augustus becomes king of France, when Louis VII dies, he's still quite young and he, he relies on Henry to help him out, you know, and then repays him very poorly for the assistance that Henry does give him. And, you know, the patriarch of Jerusalem is coming to Henry with the keys to the city of Jerusalem and asking him to go and be king. Of Jerusalem. I mean, there are. There is almost no way to. To comprehend how well regarded Henry was by this point in his reign.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Lewis]

By everyone except his sons.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

This is, I think, really the apogee of their power, you know, that everyone is. Is kind of looking at them. They're a golden couple. And I think I like to remember these good times.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Matt.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

You know, again, everyone go watch this so that we can make some more films about the not so good times. But listen, can we celebrate? I want to take the win. I'm taking the dub.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, we're doing it. Yeah. But please, please go and watch it so we can make some more, because we're going to get you rebellious sons. We're going to get you Thomas Beckett. We're going to get you. Did Henry imprison his wife, all of those kinds of stuff. If we're allowed to make more.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Absolutely. I want some troubadour action. So come on, guys, don't let me down.

[Matt Lewis]

You've tried that once. We had troubadour action at Chateau d'. Afferelle. It was not pretty.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Matt, I love you so much. I don't know if you count as a juventor. Whoa, whoa.

[Matt Lewis]

I wrote that music myself.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming up from the dungeon and chatting about your favorite married couple and mine.

[Matt Lewis]

Always a pleasure. Please don't send me back. Please don't send me back.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

The ascent to power, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II is available to subscribers, so go find the link in the show notes to this episode, and if you watch it enough, we get to make more about the rest of their stories. So we're all relying on you to make that happen.

[Matt Lewis]

Please. There are new installments of God Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Elena and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can also sign up to History hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every [e-mail]

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

subscribe anyway, we're going to let you go so you can go watch the documentary.

[Matt Lewis]

Please.

[Dr. Elena Yaniga]

I've been Eleanor Yaniga. Please tell all your friends and family that you've just gone medieval. See you next time. At Edward Jones. We believe Rich is about taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your financial advisor personalizes your plan to help you preserve your progress and create something that lasts. Let's find your rich Edward Jones Member, sipc.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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